Author Topic: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience  (Read 12261 times)

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Offline bingo600

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Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« on: June 06, 2015, 08:40:29 am »
Hi Guyzz

As i wrote here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/msg681416/#msg681416
My brand new DS1054Z from Batronix was defective and either locked up or crashed with garbage on the screen.

Based on the experiences from other with Batronix RMA i was quite confident that it would be a painless experience.

My new scope is under way, but i have a mixed feeling about the "good experience".

Read the following mail dialog , and tell me if i'm wrong.


Me
Quote
Hi Batronix

My DS1054Z is sick , and stops functioning after a few hours.
Sometimes it justs stops showing the waveform captured but with all buttons dead , and sometimes it crashes like on the attached pictures.

I would like to return the defective oscilloscope (RMA) , and have a new working one shipped to Denmark.

I hope you will be able to deliver a new one, from stock. As i have already waited for a long time on the first one.

If you have to return the Scope to Rigol, and i have to wait for several weeks.
Then i would like to use my 14 days returnright (from the date i received it) , the 20-05-2015.

But i would prefer to get a new scope.

How do we get on from here ?
Will you send me a return/rma package label , so i can ship it to you ?


This message is also entered via the web-system.


regards
Bingo

Batronix
Quote
Good Morning ,

thanks for your email.

You are right. Your DS1054Z does not look too good. Unfortunately I cannot send you a DHL return label for Denmark. For some reasons DHL does not offer this service in Denmark.
So I kindly ask you to send us the device. Please enclose a receipt of the shipping costs so we can reimburse you for that.

Our address is:

Batronix Elektronik
Lise-Meitner-Str. 1-7
24223 Schwentinental
Germany

I´ll send you a new DS1054Z as soon as we have the old one here.

Thank you very much for your help.

Best regards,

Me
Quote
Hello Batronix


Please find enclosed two scans of the receipt from Post Danmark , for reimbursing the shipping cost as promised.
I think scan2 is the best.

The cost for shipping the Scope insured for 3000 DKK (400€) to Batronix was : 475.00 DKK
So please refund the amount.


An alternative would be that i get  :
4 x Rigol Impedance Adjuster 50 Ohm / Feed-through terminator, BNC connectors, DC to 1 GHz, 50 Ohm/1 W.
Shipped with the new scope.


Then i don't need a refund of the return shipment to you, and we'll probably both have saved some money.

What do you say ?

Regards

Batronix
Quote
Good Morning

sure, I can send you a Rigol Impedance Adjuster 50 Ohm with the new DS1054Z.

Best regards,

Me
Quote
Batronix it was 4 x Rigol Impedance Adjuster 50 Ohm
If it should make up for the 475 dkk (64€) in shipping

Else i'd rather have the 475 dkk , and buy some on ebay.

Bingo

Batronix
Quote
Dear Bingo,

Unfortunately I cannot reimburse you the full amount. You will not get a refund for the insurance you took. To take the insurance was your choice.
For the return shipment, regular standard mail would have been totally fine. That would be 39,54€. ( According to the Danish Postal Service website, 295 DKK)
That means you can either have 2 Rigol 50 Ohm or we will transfer the amount on 39,54 back to your PayPal account.

Thank you very much for your understanding.

Best regards,

Me
Quote
Hi Batronix

A standard package is NOT insured for the €400 that a new scope would cost me if it got lost in the shipping.
It is only insured for around 200€.

I did not ship it insured , just to use Batronix money , but to make sure that i would get the full amount to get a new scope if it got lost.

I am quite disapointed , that your problem with getting a DHL return label in DK for an insured shipment , would end up in an argument.
I just did what you instructed me to do, and if the scope was lost you wouldn't have sent me a new one. Therefore i insured it for the amount a new scope would have costed me. Not really my decision , pure logic.


Please consider to transfer the full amount, as i did NOT do this in "a bad meaning".
And was following your written instructions , to ship it back and get a full refund of the shipping cost.

I was quite amazed my self about the cost of the shipping , and therefore thought that 4 x 50 ohm terminators would not cost you 475 dkk.
And that way it would not be so expensive for Batronix , and i would still get the "value" i paied.


Regards
Bingo

Me (A few minutes after the above mail, now i just want my new scope)
Quote
Batronix

If Batronix refuse to reimburse the 475 dkk, there is nothing i can do about it.
I will have to accept Batronix policy, about not accepting the cost of a RMA package sent insured for a value, corresponding to
the value of of the instrument within.

Please transfer the amount Batronix will accept for shipping, to my PayPal account.
And send me a new working DS1054Z, as soon as possible.

Bingo

Batronix
Quote
Good Morning,

thanks for your understanding.

The amount of 39,45€ has been sent back to your PayPal account.
The new DS1054Z will be dispatched today. You´ll get the DHL trackingnumber around 3 PM.

Best regards,


Me
Quote
On 2015-06-04 10:33, Batronix wrote:
> Good Morning,
>
> thanks for your understanding.
>
Batronix i don't understand it , but i have to accept it.

> The amount of 39,45€ has been sent back to your PayPal account.
> The new DS1054Z will be dispatched today. You´ll get the DHL trackingnumber around 3 PM.
>

Thank you
Bingo


My new scope is shipped, and i have gotten a tracking number.
But i still don't understand why Batronix, does not allow me to send the scope insured for the amount it would cost me to buy a new one if it got lost.
Especially because they apparently can't arrange a returnlabel in Denmark , and as stated below they expressed what i in the beginning thought of as excellent service.

Quote
Unfortunately I cannot send you a DHL return label for Denmark. For some reasons DHL does not offer this service in Denmark.
So I kindly ask you to send us the device. Please enclose a receipt of the shipping costs so we can reimburse you for that.


My RMA experience with Batronix would have been to A+++ if they had just accepted the insured return postage.

What do you think ?

/Bingo
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #1 on: June 06, 2015, 08:52:13 am »
But i still don't understand why Batronix, does not allow me to send the scope insured for the amount it would cost me to buy a new one if it got lost.What do you think ?
Because a) it costs money and b) the scopes cost them less than that.
 

Offline con-f-use

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #2 on: June 06, 2015, 08:52:59 am »
I think you're right. The save thing for everyone involved would be to pay insurance. It sounds a bit cheap on their part. On the other hand, they can probably stomach a lost scope once in a while better than the premium DHL is earning on the insurance on all their packages. Then again, dicking around with you this much, probably cost them the same amount in time and you your nerves. Anyways, you should have asked them whether to send it insured and whether they carry the risk.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 08:57:06 am by con-f-use »
 

Offline jimon

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #3 on: June 06, 2015, 09:01:23 am »
From their perspective - scope is already defective, so they just lost 400 eur + shipping from you + shipping back to you in operations. Ok, in like 2-3 month rigol probably will fix it (then rigol will loose some money, because they probably will just throw main board away) + shipping costs back and forth. After repair they need to sell this scope as "refubrished" ... and VAT's/Taxes/Import charges everywhere. So as you can see it's too much hassle for them ... if "no scope - no problem" (scope is lost) they will not really loose much more money, but will save time.

Other companies do even worse, for example Logitech repair policy : you destroy faulty device on your own, send them pictures (+serial code), they send you a new device, they save more money not dealing with repairs :D

I guess the best option was to ask them how they want you to ship package ... but well, it's in the past now :(
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #4 on: June 06, 2015, 09:02:54 am »
Anyways, you should have asked them whether to send it insured and whether they carry the risk.

I think i have learned that lesson too.
I just didn't think about it, based on the good reputation Batronix have had here.

And i wonder why Batronix didn't mention it in their initial mail, that i should chose the cheapest uninsured shipping, and they would accept the risk if lost.

/Bingo
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 09:45:39 am by bingo600 »
 

Offline con-f-use

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #5 on: June 06, 2015, 09:47:40 am »
They also didn't ask you to but it in a cardboard box.  ;)
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #6 on: June 06, 2015, 09:52:57 am »
They also didn't ask you to but it in a cardboard box.  ;)
I don't think that comparison is fair.
It came in the Rigol Box, and ofcause it left in the Rigol box.


It simply felt logical to ship it insured for the "new value" amount, as they stated that they would, only ship a new one when they have received the old one.

I did NOT ship it insured just to spend Batronix money, but to make sure i would be able to buy a new one if it got lost.
And i did not select expess or anything fancy.

/Bingo

« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 09:54:37 am by bingo600 »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #7 on: June 06, 2015, 09:55:20 am »
I think the only thing that you did wrong, is not asking them upfront about what carrier and what insurance to use.
I can understand their reservation of not paying the insurance.

Every time I had some warranty issues (with any company), I was first very happy that my case was taken care of and I received a new item. Batronix took very well care of your needs and sent you a new scope right away. This counts more in my book, than anything else, even if you have to pay the difference in insurance.
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline con-f-use

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #8 on: June 06, 2015, 10:27:22 am »
Don't get me wrong, I'm with you on one important point: I think Bartronix should have carried the principle the risk of the package getting lost. It's up to them how they do it, however. Apparently their way is to risk one scope getting lost and write that off instead of giving the shipping company a small profit on the insurance of every warranty package. After all, not many packages get lost. It's a legitimate way to deal with such things and not uncommon. At least I hope that's there way. Could also be that they wouldn't have sent you a new scope had the old one been lost and sent via uninsured mail. Would be interesting to know their policy then. But, at least today, we won't know.

So in my opinion none of you did anything wrong, it was just a simple misunderstanding. You should have asked, and they should have told you. But you both made assumptions the other didn't share.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 10:30:28 am by con-f-use »
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #9 on: June 06, 2015, 10:28:55 am »
I think the only thing that you did wrong, is not asking them upfront about what carrier and what insurance to use.
I can understand their reservation of not paying the insurance.

Every time I had some warranty issues (with any company), I was first very happy that my case was taken care of and I received a new item. Batronix took very well care of your needs and sent you a new scope right away. This counts more in my book, than anything else, even if you have to pay the difference in insurance.

I'm not unsatisfied with the Batronix RMA process , it was painless.
Just their way of handling the coverage of my return shipment.

But it saddens me, that i'm left in an unequal position as opposed to ie. you in Germany, where a DHL returnlabel probably would have been possible. You would have gotten a "free" returnlabel  from Batronix, and could have used that one with "full" coverage (insurance) from Batronix.

I on the other hand, can not get the same security. As am not allowed to get a full refund for my insured returnpackage.

So i agree that my mistake was : Not to write to Batronix what kind of shipping they would accept, and still cover if the package would be lost.

/Bingo
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 10:58:56 am by bingo600 »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #10 on: June 06, 2015, 11:00:38 am »
IMHO it is weird they ask you to send a piece of equipment worth 400 euro without insurance. Then again insurance from the postal service usually is very cheap.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #11 on: June 06, 2015, 11:11:53 am »

But it saddens me, that i'm left in an unequal position as opposed to ie. you in Germany, where a DHL returnlabel probably would have been possible.
/Bingo
Not everything is great with DHL Germany.
I bought something on ebay, Germany, paid Euro 650 by bank transfer and the seller shipped right away. This was at the end of April. The tracking still stands on May 5th. Obviously the package got lost. You would not believe the paperwork involved to get this resolved by DHL. At the end I will be lucky, if I will get the Euro 500 insured value back from them.
So, you think you have good insurance and still something goes wrong.
So, you think you have arranged everything correctly and something goes wrong.

In your case it seems to be a small penalty to pay for getting a new scope so fast.

BTW, in Germany, 500 Euro insurance is included with every real PAKET automatically with DHL.
And 500 Euro extra will cost may be 3 or 4 Euro
That seems not to be the case in Denmark?
 
There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #12 on: June 06, 2015, 11:21:06 am »
IMO insurance is a kind big scam. My friend who works in freight transport company said exactly this too. You will run circles to get something out of it if anything. Moreover if you doing in volume it is cheaper and easier to just write off some loses, rather than dealing with insurance.
 

Offline John Coloccia

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #13 on: June 06, 2015, 11:38:33 am »
Insurance is for the shipper's protection. It's not reasonable to expect them to pay for your insurance, any more than it's reasonable for them to pay for your gas to get to the post office.  I know that it seems like it's just part of the shipping costs, but it's really not.  Don't ding Batronix for this.  They're being very nice and are doing everything right.  It's just one of those costs that you have to eat if you choose to use insurance.

Anyhow, I rarely insure anything.  I ship most product through the US Postal Service, and problems for me are exceptionally rare...and they've yet to loose a single package.  I had one disappear for a month once, but even that one eventually showed up. With all the money I've saved on not buying insurance, I can loose some packages and still be ahead.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:41:11 am by John Coloccia »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #14 on: June 06, 2015, 12:31:45 pm »
IMHO it is weird they ask you to send a piece of equipment worth 400 euro without insurance. Then again insurance from the postal service usually is very cheap.
Why? It's already broken and the possibility of it vanishing during transit is tiny - certainly not worth the cost of paying 1% extra for insurance.

If you're shipping hundreds of devices a day then it adds up to a loss - better to have one go missing every few weeks than to pay extra on every single package.
 

Offline madires

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #15 on: June 06, 2015, 12:46:03 pm »
BTW, in Germany, 500 Euro insurance is included with every real PAKET automatically with DHL.
And 500 Euro extra will cost may be 3 or 4 Euro

The other insured sums are EUR 2500 for EUR 3.50 extra, and EUR 25,000 for EUR 15 extra (within Germany). A packet with EUR 500 insured value and a weight up to 10kg to Denmark is EUR 21,99 (5kg is EUR 16,99).I've checked some RMA policies and all tell the customer to send an insured packet, which makes sense from a legal point of view. Bingo600 did everything right. If the packet would have been lost, Batronix could simply say sorry and close the RMA. I think the cause of the problem is that DHL's standard packet already includes an insurance (covering the value of a DS1054Z). And at the moment Batronix told bingo600 to pay the packet and that they will reimburse him without telling him that they will just reimburse the postage without insurance, they are obliged to pay the complete postage including insurance. No business would expect an uninsured packet.
 

Offline bingo600

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2015, 01:22:04 pm »
IMHO it is weird they ask you to send a piece of equipment worth 400 euro without insurance. Then again insurance from the postal service usually is very cheap.
Why? It's already broken and the possibility of it vanishing during transit is tiny - certainly not worth the cost of paying 1% extra for insurance.


But that statement would only make sense if Batronix, would cover it if it got lost with standard shipping.
Else the saving from Batronix would impose a higher risk on me.
Defective or not that scope had a value of 400€ for me, if i had to get a new one.

/Bingo
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 01:35:15 pm by bingo600 »
 

Offline con-f-use

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2015, 01:58:13 pm »
Insurance from delivery companies has always puzzled me. Shouldn't a shipping company pay for all damage or loss in any case (within reasonable bounds of course)? After all you trust them with your stuff. It's the implied contract that you pay an agreed-upon sum and they get your stuff from A to B without damage and within an agreed span of time. If I break something at a restaurant, I have to pay for it. I take the risk. If I'm afraid of the risk I have one of three options: Insure me against it, risk it anyway and hope nothing happens (and pay up if it does) or don't do it.

I always feel screwed over when a delivery company offers me insurance. Do they have a free pass to handle my shipment as recklessly as then want if it is uninsured? Do they play soccer with all their uninsured packages and give them to Bob the hobo to deliver it afterwards?

Of course I need to take extra precautions if I were to sent my extremely fragile ming vase or fresh meat or something. And of cause I should inform them if I have an extraordinarily expensive freight to send. But in the vast majority of cases, a 500$ oscilloscope including, its their damn fault if they loose or damage it. They didn't do their job so they should pay the damage, insured or not.
 

Offline linux-works

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2015, 02:33:06 pm »
I would feel annoyed if the company denied me insurance fees on a return shipment I made to them.

what if the unit was lost?  why should I, the consumer, be out that amount?  that's what is going on.  risk that is not necessary for the end consumer to take.

yes, its a scam that shippers charge this when they should always include it and BE RESPONSIBLE.  but they figured out (bean counters) that they could make 'reliable shipment' an 'option' (??) and if you don't pay, you don't get to have coverage.

a scope is too big and heavy and expensive to risk.  I would NEVER EVER ship something like that without insurance.  and getting insurance to cover loss is a PITA but at least its better than not having any at all.

a big business can afford to write-off losses.  end users simply cannot.

the fact that the seller could not or would not pay in advance for return shipping put them at the customer's mercy, really.  all they had to do was send out a prepaid shipping label.  is denmark a 3rd world country?  sheesh!  I have never been there but I seriously doubt that its that hard to send a prepaid shipping label to someone in dk!

so, the seller told the buyer to send it back and they'd cover it.  now, they put conditions on it.

buyer didn't ask about insurance first, but also, seller did not say NOT to spend on insurance!

if I buy an item on ebay and have to return it, I'm required to pay tracking and insurance.  why would this buyer not be allowed that same simple courtesy?

the only thing that would give batronix an 'out' is if they said in advance, 'buy this shipping service, do not pay for insurance, have it trackable and if its lost, we'll cover it'.  did they say that, exactly, or did they just say 'send it back to us' ?
 

Offline lpc32

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2015, 03:46:56 pm »
So in my opinion none of you did anything wrong, it was just a simple misunderstanding. You should have asked, and they should have told you. But you both made assumptions the other didn't share.
I don't think he had an obligation to ask. The "professional" side here is the store, they are the ones that should have the experience both in shipping and in customer interaction. It's their failing.

They should have covered the insurance even if their initial assumption was that it would be shipped uninsured. And the best course of action was actually to send back 4 impedance adjusters, like bingo600 asked, which would have benefited both sides.
 

Online wraper

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2015, 03:51:13 pm »
Apparently their way is to risk one scope getting lost and write that off instead of giving the shipping company a small profit on the insurance of every warranty package.
I wouldn't call 25 euro on insurance per each 400 euro worth scope a small profit.
 

Offline mzzj

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2015, 08:54:41 pm »


If you're shipping hundreds of devices a day then it adds up to a loss - better to have one go missing every few weeks than to pay extra on every single package.
Very much this. 
Insurance usually makes sense if the possible loss would be substantial or devastating for you. 
Ship 400eur scopes a dozen per day, 1% get lost =acceptable risk and if you want insurance to cover it it will be more expensive than pulling the money from your own pockets directly.
Ship 400000000eur scope twice per year, 0,01% get lost =lower probability but many would call it unacceptable risk.

 
 

Offline cncjerry

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2015, 09:29:04 pm »
IMO insurance is a kind big scam. My friend who works in freight transport company said exactly this too. You will run circles to get something out of it if anything. Moreover if you doing in volume it is cheaper and easier to just write off some loses, rather than dealing with insurance.

This hasn't been my experience with US domestic UPS or USPS.  We had some silly things broken in transport, like one of those tesla lights, for example, which are fragile to begin with and they started the paperwork prior to our complaint. 

I recently had a box thrown over my low dog fence by UPS with a pretty heavy piece of test equipment.  I took a picture, complained and got full coverage again.

I guess it depends on country and carrier.

Jerry
 

Offline bson

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2015, 11:06:11 pm »
They're not going to fix it - it's going in the dumpster on arrival, or maybe they get reimbursed by Rigol CN who throw it in the dumpster on their end.  The main reason they want you to send it to them is so they don't get taken advantage of by scammers - they really don't care about the scope per se.  There may also be accounting or tax reasons they or Rigol CN need to receive it.  It would be silly to pay to insure something that's going in the dumpster on arrival anyway.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Batronix - A mixed DS1054Z RMA experience
« Reply #24 on: June 07, 2015, 12:08:09 am »
Yes, if they were the ones taking the loss. But they're not. The customer would be liable, and so it's only totally fair for the vendor to both require and reimburse insurance. And if indeed it's just going in the trash and the unit is required only as a security token to prevent fraud, then it's just as valuable as a working unit, and thus needs all the insurance a working unit would demand.
 


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