bench multimeter for someone learning

[mastershake]

one more piece to this kids (he is 19 and looking like this is what he wants to do or at least something in a similar field) puzzle. he was showing me the owon bench meters and i personally have zero experience with them. any thoughts? anything better for the money? he has a nice fluke handheld and wants a bench unit. budget is low but want something thats at least decent. he saw the owon 1041 or the 2041 which i think he likes a bit better being a larger footprint he can stack vs the skinny 1041 as examples but again i have no idea if they are garbage or not. he is learning and will either go off on his own or maybe work for me (if im still around then) once he gets some experience. in the meantime i kind of took him under my wing and am teaching him. he is an excellent student so far and this is something he is highly interested in. he is trying to complete his bench setup and pf course has a budget. any other models to recc. i got him to go for the slightly better oscope in the siglent and that did eat up a bit more then he hoped. i told him use the fluke for now and he mat do that but he really would like a bench unit. should he spend a bit more and if so for what? again i have not bought much new myself personally except soldering stations in the past few years.

as always you guys are awesome and i very much appreciate the help.

[CountChocula]

Hiya! I have the 1041 and, to be honest, I don't love it. It is highly capable (especially for the price), but some of the decisions that were made with its design are dealbreakers for me. For one thing, it takes a considerable amount of time to boot (and you have to hold your finger on the power button, which means that you can't just get it started and move on to something else while you wait for it to be ready). The keyboard is a bit mushy, and the unit is so light that it keeps moving around. The settings reset with every reboot, and, in my opinion, the defaults have not been well chosen. Finally, the continuity mode is really slow, even compared to my cheap no-name brand handheld.

For about the same amount (or less, even), you can get a used HP 3458, which is (IMO) a great bench multimeter—solidly built, fast, and reliable. I keep both on my bench, and the HP gets a lot more use—it's just way more convenient—unless I need a function that it doesn't support (diode, capacitance, or continuity).


—CC

[nctnico]

My daily driver is the Vicy VC8145 bench meter for about 10 years already. 4.5 digits and anything you need from a general purpose DMM. I also have a Keysight 6.5 digit bench DMM but I'm using that one rarely; only when I need the extra precission.

Uni-t also has some interesting models nowadays but you'd have to check reviews about these.

[alm]

For about the same amount (or less, even), you can get a used HP 3458, which is (IMO) a great bench multimeter—solidly built, fast, and reliable. I keep both on my bench, and the HP gets a lot more use—it's just way more convenient—unless I need a function that it doesn't support (diode, capacitance, or continuity).

Pretty sure you slipped a digit here . Probably HP 3468A/B or 3478A? Other options to consider is the Keithley 199/196 series or Fluke 8840A. Both have better displays than the HP units of that era.

If you're in the US then spending some time watching eBay and needing some minor repairs may not be a bad trade-off compared to a cheap meter with bad usability. I haven't used the Owon meter, but that's what it sounds like to me based on the description of the Count.

[rhb]

At $100-120 for a 3478A on ebay I find that hard to beat.   The age makes the LM399 very stable over time.

[nctnico]

At $100-120 for a 3478A on ebay I find that hard to beat.   The age makes the LM399 very stable over time.

With an utterly horrible, non-backlit LCD display? No thanks! Feature and comfort wise, these old meters can't hold a candle compared to the low cost, modern bench DMMs you can buy nowadays. When I went looking for a bench DMM a decade ago, even the VC8145 came out on top compared to the old junk -which didn't get any younger-.

[CountChocula]

Pretty sure you slipped a digit here . Probably HP 3468A/B or 3478A? Other options to consider is the Keithley 199/196 series or Fluke 8840A. Both have better displays than the HP units of that era.

Eh, what's a digit among friends?

Thanks for catching this!

[HKJ]

I would say a Siglent or Owen meter is a cheap beginner meter. I you want a meter that will last many years looks at Keithley DMM6500 or Keysight 34461A (Note: Keysight do not support their equipment, what you buy is what you get, do not expect any bug fixes or software updates).

You can get cheaper meters from China, I have tested a couple, but I would not rate them as real serious bench meters. They work, but are not in the same class (East tester is close).

[nctnico]

You can get cheaper meters from China, I have tested a couple, but I would not rate them as real serious bench meters. They work, but are not in the same class (East tester is close).

Don't make the mistake that bench meters are all about precission. For regular use, you just need handheld features with a mains cord. I would not want to use my 34461A as a daily driver DMM. Hell no; it kills productivity.

[HKJ]

You can get cheaper meters from China, I have tested a couple, but I would not rate them as real serious bench meters. They work, but are not in the same class (East tester is close).

Don't make the mistake that bench meters are all about precission. For regular use, you just need handheld features with a mains cord. I would not want to use my 34461A as a daily driver DMM. Hell no; it kills productivity.

I did not assume that bench was about precision, the parameters I like about bench meters are:
Can run for any amount of time without turning off
4 terminal ohm
Can be read and logged from a computer.
Easy readable display (Display with lights are much easier to read on my bench that low contrast LCD meters).
Good precision (I use 6½ and 7½ meters). In most cases it is not very important.

Generally I would not use a bench meter away from the bench (I do have a couple of test setups not directly on my bench), there I would take a handheld fit for the job (hopefully).

[rhb]

At $100-120 for a 3478A on ebay I find that hard to beat.   The age makes the LM399 very stable over time.

With an utterly horrible, non-backlit LCD display? No thanks! Feature and comfort wise, these old meters can't hold a candle compared to the low cost, modern bench DMMs you can buy nowadays. When I went looking for a bench DMM a decade ago, even the VC8145 came out on top compared to the old junk -which didn't get any younger-.

May I ask what 5.5 digit sub-$150 meter you would recommend?  I'm not aware of any current products in that price range except perhaps a *very* lucky ebay buy.  There's a current ebay 3478A listing with a $38 bid.  I have  3 and never paid more than $120 + $10-15 shipping.

I normally use the pair of 34401As next to the pair of 3478As.  I have the latter for logging PSU V & A via GPIB using an AR488.  If bling is important a newer DMM design is obviously better.  But if you want 5.5 digit accuracy and high reliability on a budget, I'd like to know of something that will beat the price/accuracy of a 3478A.  Adding a backlight today is pretty simple. The work is all in taking it apart and putting it back together.

Full service data is available, as is OSSW to control them via GPIB,  and a member of the 3478A design team has been sighted on the HPAK list.  So user support is a non-issue.
 
Old high quality DMMs are more stable over time than a new one using the same voltage reference.  Generally speaking old voltage references are superior because they have *years* of burn-in rather than days.

If all you want is 4.5 digits, there are a lot of choices.  All depends on what you want in bench meter.  I frequently use "Free with any purchase" Harbor Freight 3.5 digit handheld DMMs.  Probably more often than any other DMM.  But I've got slew of them scattered all over in various drawers (e.g. where I store dry cells), toolboxes and other places I often want one.

Perhaps you could educate us about the "better" alternatives.

Reg

[tggzzz]

... he is an excellent student so far and this is something he is highly interested in. he is trying to complete his bench setup and pf course has a budget.

The best thing he can learn - because it will last a lifetime and be useful in all situations - is to understand the strengths and limitations of whatever equipment he has available.

Once he does that, he will know how to push his equipment capabilities to the limit, and where those limits are. Then, if the available equipment can't do the next job, he will be able to state what is needed and why.

Examples: how can you measure voltages to 0.1%, if you only have a 2% meter, a length of wire, a battery, and one voltage accurate to 0.1%. That's what we learned to do as kids at school.

Or if your objective is to create the world's fastest oscilloscope, what scope do you use to verify its performance? Ditto most accurate voltmeter?

Or if you are stuck on-site trying to fix a problem with inadequate test gear, how can you infer the problem with whatever test equipment is available.

Summary: sometimes adversity breeds excellent outcomes, whereas money allows lazy thinking.

[BeBuLamar]

I have the old Fluke 8050a. It's dirt cheap nowaday. It's fully manual and is basically Volt, Ohms and Milliamp meter no fancy function but I like it a lot.

[alm]

May I ask what 5.5 digit sub-$150 meter you would recommend?  I'm not aware of any current products in that price range except perhaps a *very* lucky ebay buy.  There's a current ebay 3478A listing with a $38 bid.  I have  3 and never paid more than $120 + $10-15 shipping.

I already mentioned two other used models. I see two completed listings for Keithley 199 meters that finished at $80, and one parts only but mostly functional for $95. In my opinion the Keithley 199 has the best display I've seen in any meter. Huge LED digits that are readable from across the room with a huge viewing angle. Looking at completed Fluke 8840A listings, I see quite a few below $150. For the Fluke 8840A you have to be careful if the AC option is installed.

[nctnico]

At $100-120 for a 3478A on ebay I find that hard to beat.   The age makes the LM399 very stable over time.

With an utterly horrible, non-backlit LCD display? No thanks! Feature and comfort wise, these old meters can't hold a candle compared to the low cost, modern bench DMMs you can buy nowadays. When I went looking for a bench DMM a decade ago, even the VC8145 came out on top compared to the old junk -which didn't get any younger-.

May I ask what 5.5 digit sub-$150 meter you would recommend?  I'm not aware of any current products in that price range except perhaps a *very* lucky ebay buy.  There's a current ebay 3478A listing with a $38 bid.  I have  3 and never paid more than $120 + $10-15 shipping.

If all you want is 4.5 digits, there are a lot of choices.  All depends on what you want in bench meter.  I frequently use "Free with any purchase" Harbor Freight 3.5 digit handheld DMMs.  Probably more often than any other DMM.  But I've got slew of them scattered all over in various drawers (e.g. where I store dry cells), toolboxes and other places I often want one.

All you need for daily use is 3.5 or 4.5 digits. For making quick measurements, see what kind of voltage is there, quick continiuty, check a resistor, check a capacitance value. All this doesn't need great precission but it needs a big, easy to read display and snappy operation. As I wrote before I use a VC8145 bench DMM myself for about a decade. I bought this after looking at a couple of dozen bench DMMs (including used ones) so this is not a device I ended up 'by luck'. It is a carefully made selection to cater for my everyday use. I wanted a bench DMM primarily because it doesn't need batteries and is stackable. I have 3 bench DMMs and only have 1 handheld DMM (a good one which I use very rarely). Going price for a VC8145 is around $150 (IIRC) but there are cheaper (sub US $100) options from Uni-T and others nowadays. You may find the 3478A a good meter but I have stepped into that trap before and ended up with old, outdated test equipment. It is old technology from the previous millenium missing a lot of feature (capacitance measurement on a DMM is extremely handy for example).

[rhb]

Clearly you don't think much of a Tek 11801 with a 20 GHz  SD-24 TDR head and 40 GHz  SD-32.  So last millenium.

[nctnico]

Clearly you don't think much of a Tek 11801 with a 20 GHz  SD-24 TDR head and 40 GHz  SD-32.  So last millenium.

Old junk is old junk. Only useful if you really have nothing else available. About 5 or 6 years ago I bought some HP6024A DC power supplies thinking I bought some nice quality HP gear. I quickly got a wakeup call telling me I was getting old myself. I had bought some really old stuff! I had to change all the electrolytics, do some repair, re-attach mains wiring to the board (I could pull the wires out from the solder joints) and fitted temperature control to the fans so they would not be so loud. About 2 years ago I replaced the old HP supplies with 6 brand new PSUs from Rek and Gophert that have the same power rating. The new PSUs need 10 times less volume (so more easier to place somewhere on the bench), no fan and surprisingly accurate digital readouts (including power) for the price of around 50 euro each. Nevertheless people pay $100 for HP 6024A power supplies without any warranty on Ebay 

[MrYakimovYA]

Don't make the mistake that bench meters are all about precission. For regular use, you just need handheld features with a mains cord. I would not want to use my 34461A as a daily driver DMM. Hell no; it kills productivity.

Excuse me, what's wrong with 34461a? I have it at my work office. I think it's very good model. I also fall in love with Agilent/HP 34401a. It's VFD looks very seriously. I also have an everyday horsework GW Instek GDM-8145 4.5 digit multimeter. It's fully manual but it has widely known ICL7135 inside, and this DMM is just beautiful.

[nukie]

HP 3468A, 3478A - No diode test function, they also need a backup battery in it to secure calibration data. Okay maybe diode test function isn't important for everyone but I use it to find shorts in mobile phones and laptop mobo. The electrolytic caps probably need a refresh as well mines leaking when I got it

Fluke 8840A is old and the ROM chips are about time to go. So replace them and you are good to go. VFD maybe a bit dim. Again no diode test function. This device is a magical instrument that is factory calibration accurate after decades. I tested with vishay metal 0.01% resistors reading with the 4 wire test it passed with flying vacuum fluro display colours.

Both are very good meters I used them for a few years before upgrading to 34401a.

[coromonadalix]

geez  why going that far with all the big names  34461a 34401a  3478  etc ....

for a beginner / learner,   any basic bench one will do,  you have to start somewhere no ?

Dont start someone with vfd based ones, or ones with unobtanium parts etc ...

just pick an standard bench dmm, you even have some dmm chart lists in the instrument section here ...

yeah   it will be always discuttable and once again a never ending thread

and old stuff got prices hikes  etc ....   

[J-R]

Oh wow, I'm not sure which is more ludicrous, bringing up the 34461A in a beginner discussion or saying the VC8145 is better for daily use.  You could have just mentioned the Vici by itself and no one would have caught on to your mental disorder!  ("Pro-tip" on the 34461A and similar: spend a few minutes configuring the default display configuration for each function with statistics for example and save it as the power-up config.)

Both the Vici and the Owon models have some pretty serious flaws as mentioned by various online reviewers but that may not matter here.

A common tactic for parents is to buy their kids cheap stuff to start, because neither is sure whether it's just a phase or something serious.

So I don't think even $150 makes a ton of sense for a beginner, especially if they already have a DMM.  Spend the money on breadboards, components, a 3D printer, a scope, ESR meter, whatever.


It's true many of the older bench DMMs are missing useful features, but you can combine it with a decent handheld and be pretty far ahead.  Unfortunately it is also true that the pressure from inflation and supply-chain issues on the higher end models is generally raising the prices of used gear.  But the deals can still be found if you're diligent and have a specific needed feature in mind.

The Fluke 8840A and 8842A are objectively excellent at their provided functions, with a big, bright VFD display, three update speed choices, 4-wire capability, front/rear terminals, and dedicated buttons for everything.  But I'm not seeing this route for someone starting out.


I'm a fan of test equipment DIY kits for learning.  You can build something that can also be used on the bench afterwards.

[nctnico]

Don't make the mistake that bench meters are all about precission. For regular use, you just need handheld features with a mains cord. I would not want to use my 34461A as a daily driver DMM. Hell no; it kills productivity.

Excuse me, what's wrong with 34461a? I have it at my work office. I think it's very good model. I also fall in love with Agilent/HP 34401a. It's VFD looks very seriously. I also have an everyday horsework GW Instek GDM-8145 4.5 digit multimeter. It's fully manual but it has widely known ICL7135 inside, and this DMM is just beautiful.

34461A: slow continuity, whiny fan, slow to start. Sometimes more is less. I only use it when I need better than 4.5 digit precission.

[Kleinstein]

The 34461 is a pretty expensive meter. There are likely not that many used ones around to make them afordable. Chances are many would prefer a DSO that can be had for 1/2 the price.
It is a reasonable meter, but not really needed for a beginner.

For a beginner one usually does not need high accuracy - the point that makes the 3478 / 3468 attractive is getting 100 nV resolution due to a 30 mV range. For most beginners it is already overkill, but these 2 type come up used relative frequent in the US for price comparable to a lower end new bench DMM. The LCD display can be a bit hard to read under poor light conditions.
From the functions the 3478 can provide it is a definite step up from the VC8145 or the XDM1041 - however old and used and it may need some maintainace / repair (battery and maybe capacitors) soon.
Still the GPIB interface for the computer may add quite some costs if wanted.

A bench meter is usually not such a high priority - most things can also be done with a usually cheaper handheld. One of the reasons to want a bench meter may be for tranfering data to the computer - most bench meters can, but only few of the handhelds and this comes with limits from the battery power.

[nctnico]

From the functions the 3478 can provide it is a definite step up from the VC8145 or the XDM1041

But the 3478A is missing lots of modern day features like capacitance, continuity, frequency, AC rms in dBm, temperature, dual value display (AC + frequency for example), averaging, etc. All features which the VC8145 (for example) does have. And all very handy features to have for general purpose use. In the end 3478A is a voltmeter, it is not a Digital Multipurpose Meter that meets today's DMM standards (which is probably what the OP is looking for).

A bench meter is usually not such a high priority - most things can also be done with a usually cheaper handheld. One of the reasons to want a bench meter may be for tranfering data to the computer - most bench meters can, but only few of the handhelds and this comes with limits from the battery power.

No. Why would computer data transfer be important? To me it is not. The main reason for having a bench DMM for me is that it never runs out of batteries, it is stackable and doesn't clutter my desk like handhelds tend to do. I used to have a few handhelds but I got rid of them. Recently I sold a brand new U1281A that was sitting on one of my shelves for a a couple of years already. I have no use for handhelds on my bench. In addition, a decent handheld also costs quite a bit of money so if a bench DMM is a better fit, then it is better to go for the bench DMM right from the start.

[bdunham7]

From the functions the 3478 can provide it is a definite step up from the VC8145 or the XDM1041

It depends on what you want to do.  If 100nV resolution, 4W ohms and ultimate precision are your goals, perhaps a 3478 is OK.  I have one, it works perfectly and I never use it.  I don't have a VC8145, but if I had only those two meters I'm pretty sure I'd use the VC8145 at least 90% of the time.  You can use it with an RS232 connection and HKJs TestController program (or the included software, no idea if it is any good) without having to deal with GPIB. It also has many more useful features such as capacitance, frequency, dual display and TRMS AC+DC.  And then there's the 300V limitation of the HP3478.  So the Vici is essentially an economical full-featured meter that more or less replicates the functions of a decent hand-held in bench form.  At the under $150 price point, I'm not sure what else there is that isn't utter trash.