bench multimeter for someone learning

[nctnico]

Hm..
The used probes could make a difference too, the fastest results I got with the gold plated probemasters.
But out of genuine curiosity, I'll ask:
Why does it have to be "super fast" ?

I always just listen to the beeper. If it starts to sound intermittent then it is either bad contact from the probe or there isn't a short. If there isn't a full short then it needs further investigation. My typical use for continiuty is to check connections between points, check fuses and find blown up MOSFETs / diodes. In some cases I sweep the probes across a row of pins quickly and listen for the DMM make some sound. A short blip is enough. BTW I use sharp, hardened steel probes from Hirschmann or a similar A-brand.

[Martin72]

Found a test:

Continuity speed is moderate (About 100ms).
Continuity beeps when resistance is below 30ohm, this is adjustable from 0 to 2000ohm

0.1sec...Should be fast enough.

https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMEastTester%20ET3240%20UK.html

[GigaJoe]

  i like throw the wrench in that smooth process of choosing bench DMM

and offer to buy 3 ( YES 3 of them) for a price of one strange looking thingi
https://www.ebay.com/itm/175521881649

benefits : multiply points of measure to better understand what going on ;   it will defininutly looks like a pro ;  devices good and have some logging feature; finally girls really like it,  as it looks like a rocket scientist.

[mastershake]

sorry been away had lots of doc stuff past few days and a minor surgery i had to have to remove a small tumor from the liver.

anyway his budget is up to maybe 4-500 he wants this to last a long time and not have to buy one again for a good while (though imo once he catches the bug ill bet he ends up buying more like most of us) and he was offered a brand new hantek 3055 in the box for 400$ even which for that unit seems a good deal but they dont seem to have a great rep around here. sdg reviewed them and liked them.

but i also thought he should spend maybe 200 or less but he is set on something a bit higher end then that to last for a while and he is looking at 5.5 digits. i told him he really doesnt need more then 4.5 but he wants at least a 5.5 (he wanted a 6.5 till he saw those prices new lol). not really sure the hantek would be the best choice but then im not sure in that kind of budget what would be. that is his max for a bench meter though im sure if he found something as good for less he may go that way. but he does want a new one not second hand (im not sure why but he def wants something new)

[GigaJoe]

"hantek 3055"
im no doubt it will work and shows numbers ,   but when i watch this video  -  ;  it seems period of measurement was 4 seconds . cheap ADC with averaging to get 1 more digit ...   -  for me personally 4sec of averaging - NO WAY ... ;
second thing - when it drift alot  in a time,  and it will , due to components - no one will help , as the process of adjustment unknown. no support , no firmware update
 
siglent would be more reasonable ; 

PS - I do remember Hantek skope that constantly freeze - throw away money.

[tooki]

Found a test:

Continuity speed is moderate (About 100ms).
Continuity beeps when resistance is below 30ohm, this is adjustable from 0 to 2000ohm

0.1sec...Should be fast enough.

https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMEastTester%20ET3240%20UK.html

That is really nowhere fast enough IMHO. Most Fluke meters, like the 87V, detect 1ms shorts (and transient open circuits!). This really is useful when swiping across a row of contacts to find the other end of a conductor, or to identify transient short or open circuits in a cable, for example.

[J-R]

I don't think it was mentioned yet, but the Keithley 2110 (made by Picotest) can be found frequently for around $400.  It is pretty well equipped feature-wise, has USB, a lot of pro-level features and boots instantly.  Yes, the smallish display attracts some derision, but that helps to keep the the prices low when you're shopping on ebay!

Datasheet:
https://download.tek.com/datasheet/1KW-73983-1_2110_Digital_Multimeter_Datasheet_030923.pdf

Manual:
https://download.tek.com/manual/2110-901-01(C-Aug2013)(Ref).pdf

[nctnico]

Found a test:

Continuity speed is moderate (About 100ms).
Continuity beeps when resistance is below 30ohm, this is adjustable from 0 to 2000ohm

0.1sec...Should be fast enough.

https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMEastTester%20ET3240%20UK.html

That is really nowhere fast enough IMHO. Most Fluke meters, like the 87V, detect 1ms shorts (and transient open circuits!). This really is useful when swiping across a row of contacts to find the other end of a conductor, or to identify transient short or open circuits in a cable, for example.

I agree. 1ms is the 'required number'. Even at 1ms you still hear a 'click' so you know something is there.

[rsjsouza]

sorry been away had lots of doc stuff past few days and a minor surgery i had to have to remove a small tumor from the liver.

anyway his budget is up to maybe 4-500 he wants this to last a long time and not have to buy one again for a good while (though imo once he catches the bug ill bet he ends up buying more like most of us) and he was offered a brand new hantek 3055 in the box for 400$ even which for that unit seems a good deal but they dont seem to have a great rep around here. sdg reviewed them and liked them.

but i also thought he should spend maybe 200 or less but he is set on something a bit higher end then that to last for a while and he is looking at 5.5 digits. i told him he really doesnt need more then 4.5 but he wants at least a 5.5 (he wanted a 6.5 till he saw those prices new lol). not really sure the hantek would be the best choice but then im not sure in that kind of budget what would be. that is his max for a bench meter though im sure if he found something as good for less he may go that way. but he does want a new one not second hand (im not sure why but he def wants something new)

Well, for that kind of money I would be looking at the offers from tge more known brands here:

Rigol DM3058E
https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-multimeters/dm3000/

Siglent SDM3055.
https://siglentna.com/product/sdm3055/

As for the current discussion between old versus new, having an older high quality model gives you a lower cost ticket platform to experiment with different and interesting things such as GPIB and the minor and occasional repair. Not to mention that the availability of excellent service manuals which thoroughly explain the theory of operation of the equipment provides an unparalleled education route when compared to a more modern (and more integrated) model.
My progression was an old but incredibly accurate manual range Keithely 191 where the ADC is fully discrete, to a Racal Dana 5001 that has some microprocessing for the auto ranges, to a pair of 3478As that give me incredible accuracy when compared to the handhelds, at the expense of the convenience features of the newer models. Even still, I can easily test diodes on a 3478A, while capacitance, continuity frequency, etc. are done with more suitable equipment (including the handhelds)

So, the appeal and differences mentioned about a cheaper model such as the VC8141 become dilluted in face of an Aneng AN888S, for example, which has a much better display and the same convenience features.

Good luck in your decision!

[tooki]

Found a test:

Continuity speed is moderate (About 100ms).
Continuity beeps when resistance is below 30ohm, this is adjustable from 0 to 2000ohm

0.1sec...Should be fast enough.

https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMEastTester%20ET3240%20UK.html

That is really nowhere fast enough IMHO. Most Fluke meters, like the 87V, detect 1ms shorts (and transient open circuits!). This really is useful when swiping across a row of contacts to find the other end of a conductor, or to identify transient short or open circuits in a cable, for example.

I agree. 1ms is the 'required number'. Even at 1ms you still hear a 'click' so you know something is there.

Top-notch continuity functions are latching and will produce a beep long enough to hear. (If I understand it correctly, Fluke even does the reverse, extending a pause in the beeping to make audible a brief open circuit.)

[2N3055]

Found a test:

Continuity speed is moderate (About 100ms).
Continuity beeps when resistance is below 30ohm, this is adjustable from 0 to 2000ohm

0.1sec...Should be fast enough.

https://lygte-info.dk/review/DMMEastTester%20ET3240%20UK.html

That is really nowhere fast enough IMHO. Most Fluke meters, like the 87V, detect 1ms shorts (and transient open circuits!). This really is useful when swiping across a row of contacts to find the other end of a conductor, or to identify transient short or open circuits in a cable, for example.

I agree. 1ms is the 'required number'. Even at 1ms you still hear a 'click' so you know something is there.

Top-notch continuity functions are latching and will produce a beep long enough to hear. (If I understand it correctly, Fluke even does the reverse, extending a pause in the beeping to make audible a brief open circuit.)

Respectfully I disagree.. Latched is a personal preference.

I prefer non- latched because i can hear nature of scratching in real time. It is additional info about what is the nature of connection.... You can connect 1.5V battery to audio pot and a slider to an audio amplifier to verify if they are scratchy and noisy...
A bad connection for instance can be oxide in connection or clean break with cold joint. One will have distinct on/off sound (albeit quick) other one will sound exactly like white noise modulated beeper...

With latched beeper I feel like beeper is confused and it will quantize it to some time timings it likes.
It will definitely let you know something is wrong, but you won't be able to hear exactly what..

As I said, my preference for those reasons. I understand you like latched, for some reasons of yours.
Both are useful if done right. Emphasys on "done right" is much more important than latched - non latched in my opinion..

[BillyO]

I agree. 1ms is the 'required number'. Even at 1ms you still hear a 'click' so you know something is there.

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.  No human can even consciously acknowledge an event in less than 150ms.  0.1 second is fine.  Anything else is just "pissing in the wind" specification racing.

[Fungus]

Sorry, but that's just ridiculous.  No human can even consciously acknowledge an event in less than 150ms.

Of course they can. Ask any musician...

[BillyO]

Of course they can. Ask any musician...

Okay, I'll ask myself.  50 years of trombone playing should qualify me.  And the answer is no. Following an expected rhythmic pattern is not "reacting" to the unexpected.

[nctnico]

Of course they can. Ask any musician...

Okay, I'll ask myself.  50 years of trombone playing should qualify me.  And the answer is no. Following an expected rhythmic pattern is not "reacting" to the unexpected.

It is not about reaction, it is about detection! Just hook up a small speaker to a function generator and let it make a 5kHz sine burst lasting 1 ms every second. You'll hear it for sure and that is all that matters.

Edit: swiping a probe along 50 pins of a QFP package takes about half a second. That is 10ms per pin of which a few ms making actual contact. I hope this makes it clear why instant continuity is important to people that need/want to trace signals in equipment for which no schematic is available.

[Fungus]

Of course they can. Ask any musician...

Okay, I'll ask myself.  50 years of trombone playing should qualify me.  And the answer is no. Following an expected rhythmic pattern is not "reacting" to the unexpected.

The word was "acknowledge", not "react".

[Jester]

One vote for low cost 3478, I had one years ago paid $100 for it. It was very accurate and stable. Used it for a few  years and sold it at a profit when I upgraded to 34401A. If it was backlit I would have kept it.

[Fungus]

I prefer non- latched because i can hear nature of scratching in real time. It is additional info about what is the nature of connection....

Yep. Non-latched sounds nasty but it gives more information.

[Martin72]

Edit: swiping a probe along 50 pins of a QFP package takes about half a second. That is 10ms per pin of which a few ms making actual contact.

And what happens if it has to last longer than half a second, except that you get a few seconds older before you're through?
Don't get mad at me, but I find this millisecond-beep-musicians debate kind of funny, is it really such important..

[nctnico]

Edit: swiping a probe along 50 pins of a QFP package takes about half a second. That is 10ms per pin of which a few ms making actual contact.

And what happens if it has to last longer than half a second, except that you get a few seconds older before you're through?
Don't get mad at me, but I find this millisecond-beep-musicians debate kind of funny, is it really such important..

Typically it is not just 1 row of pins you want to check but and entire board with many chips. And you want to find several signals. The time adds up quickly and the process becomes very annoying if the DMM you are using has slow continuity testing. Also keep in mind that you might skip a pin if you have to test pin-by-pin and not wait long enough for the beeper to go off. So what you need for this kind of work is a continuity test mode that is faster than you can move a probe along a pin. The latter guarantees you test all pins when 'swipe testing' which circles back to confidence in the test results.

[BillyO]

The word was "acknowledge", not "react".

When I'm talking about acknowledge I am talking about reaction.  In particular the reaction time the brain takes to register the event.  Once it has been registered it is acknowledged.  I'm not talking about responding with some other motion (that could take nearly twice as long).  Just the "realization" that something happened.

Anyway, nctnico explained his use case.  It was much different than I had guessed and a rapid response from the meter might indeed improve his process.

[shapirus]

I thought latched continuity beeper only existed as a compensation for not being able to implement a fast-acting detector. It is surprising to find that some people actually prefer it latched.

To me, it (latching) is extremely annoying, since it removes maybe 90% of the continuity tester functionality, as was explained in the previous posts. This is why it is an important part of DMM reviews to check how fast the beeper turns on when continuity is detected and how fast it turns off when it's gone.

One less obvious use case (and also an advantage) of the non-latched beeper is that it allows you to hear when the tips of your probes (or the wires, or whatever extra contact points there may be) wear out and it's time to replace them: the sound becomes scratchy instead of the solid continous beep that you hear with fresh tips.

[tooki]

I thought latched continuity beeper only existed as a compensation for not being able to implement a fast-acting detector.

That makes no sense. Slow detection is the result of a poor latching circuit, not the reason for adding latching. Fast detection is not a challenge (non-latching continuity is cheaper and easier to implement after all!). Latching while maintaining fast detection is a bit of an art, and one that many meter makers haven’t mastered.

The point of latching is to extend a brief, possibly inaudible beep into one that is long enough and loud enough to be heard reliably. (Not all meters get used in quiet lab environments; they’re also used widely in industry where there needs to be NO ambiguity about whether there is or isn’t continuity.)

I just did a quick test using an MCU to pulse a relay for a few ms (2.25ms is the shortest where its normally-closed contacts open long enough for my multimeters to detect it at all). With a meter with unlatched continuity, the interruption is so brief it really doesn’t sound like a pause; it just adds a click over the continuous beep. On the Fluke 87V, it extends the interruption in the beeping to something plainly audible.



For intermittent contact, I had to set the code to 5ms to get any detectable beep. On the Fluke, it’s a plain, clear beep. On the non-latching meter, a barely audible chirp so short it sounds more like a click. Fine in my quiet bedroom, but if there were any sources of noise in here, you’d be totally unable to hear it.



The scratchiness of unlatched continuity is good for detecting scratchy things (where it’s making and breaking contact many times in a split second), but not good at finding sparse intermittent open circuits.

[NoisyBoy]

Back to OP's original questions and comments, I agree that these are good options.  Between the two brands, I found my experience with firmware upgrade to be better with Siglent.  Although it is pushing the high end of what the buyer has budgeted for.  However, I don't have experience either of these two particular DMM, so feedback from other current owners would be useful. 

I also agree the comment about 4.5 vs 5.5 digits.  If you don't have the use case for 5.5 digit meter, you might as well get a 4.5 digit, and spend the extra on better probes and attachments.  Most electronics work does not require 5.5 digits unless you are dealing with a highly stable and precise power source.  Otherwise, the last 2-3 digits will likely just be drifting all over the place.

In any event, what he is getting is leagues beyond what most of us start out with.  My first DMM was a Fluke 8000A, 3.5 digits, it is still in use today.  And I never found the 3.5 digit to be lacking in the vast majority of my use cases. 

I hope you will get through your cancer treatment soon and return to full health.

sorry been away had lots of doc stuff past few days and a minor surgery i had to have to remove a small tumor from the liver.

anyway his budget is up to maybe 4-500 he wants this to last a long time and not have to buy one again for a good while (though imo once he catches the bug ill bet he ends up buying more like most of us) and he was offered a brand new hantek 3055 in the box for 400$ even which for that unit seems a good deal but they dont seem to have a great rep around here. sdg reviewed them and liked them.

but i also thought he should spend maybe 200 or less but he is set on something a bit higher end then that to last for a while and he is looking at 5.5 digits. i told him he really doesnt need more then 4.5 but he wants at least a 5.5 (he wanted a 6.5 till he saw those prices new lol). not really sure the hantek would be the best choice but then im not sure in that kind of budget what would be. that is his max for a bench meter though im sure if he found something as good for less he may go that way. but he does want a new one not second hand (im not sure why but he def wants something new)

Well, for that kind of money I would be looking at the offers from tge more known brands here:

Rigol DM3058E
https://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-multimeters/dm3000/

Siglent SDM3055.
https://siglentna.com/product/sdm3055/

As for the current discussion between old versus new, having an older high quality model gives you a lower cost ticket platform to experiment with different and interesting things such as GPIB and the minor and occasional repair. Not to mention that the availability of excellent service manuals which thoroughly explain the theory of operation of the equipment provides an unparalleled education route when compared to a more modern (and more integrated) model.
My progression was an old but incredibly accurate manual range Keithely 191 where the ADC is fully discrete, to a Racal Dana 5001 that has some microprocessing for the auto ranges, to a pair of 3478As that give me incredible accuracy when compared to the handhelds, at the expense of the convenience features of the newer models. Even still, I can easily test diodes on a 3478A, while capacitance, continuity frequency, etc. are done with more suitable equipment (including the handhelds)

So, the appeal and differences mentioned about a cheaper model such as the VC8141 become dilluted in face of an Aneng AN888S, for example, which has a much better display and the same convenience features.

Good luck in your decision!

[2N3055]

I thought latched continuity beeper only existed as a compensation for not being able to implement a fast-acting detector.

That makes no sense. Slow detection is the result of a poor latching circuit, not the reason for adding latching. Fast detection is not a challenge (non-latching continuity is cheaper and easier to implement after all!). Latching while maintaining fast detection is a bit of an art, and one that many meter makers haven’t mastered.

The point of latching is to extend a brief, possibly inaudible beep into one that is long enough and loud enough to be heard reliably. (Not all meters get used in quiet lab environments; they’re also used widely in industry where there needs to be NO ambiguity about whether there is or isn’t continuity.)

I just did a quick test using an MCU to pulse a relay for a few ms (2.25ms is the shortest where its normally-closed contacts open long enough for my multimeters to detect it at all). With a meter with unlatched continuity, the interruption is so brief it really doesn’t sound like a pause; it just adds a click over the continuous beep. On the Fluke 87V, it extends the interruption in the beeping to something plainly audible.



For intermittent contact, I had to set the code to 5ms to get any detectable beep. On the Fluke, it’s a plain, clear beep. On the non-latching meter, a barely audible chirp so short it sounds more like a click. Fine in my quiet bedroom, but if there were any sources of noise in here, you’d be totally unable to hear it.



The scratchiness of unlatched continuity is good for detecting scratchy things (where it’s making and breaking contact many times in a split second), but not good at finding sparse intermittent open circuits.

Well you tested very cheap meter for reference and compared it to superb Fluke latched implementation (yes Fluke did it right on F87V).
 
On my BM869S, 1 ms pulse creates clear click, and also clearly audible "dropout click" on 1 ms interruption. Same with BM525S.
If I go over 10 ms you start hearing it as a short tone burst. With some experience you can relatively judge intervals by ear...

On MTX3293 (that has some kind of fast latching type), 1ms pulse is less audible, but dropout is nicely heard. I find it very usable but prefer Brymen type. Mind you, I used F87V for years. I can do job with it's beeper and find it well done. But latching beeper and diode beep is something I never really found really important.. To each its own...

Best..