Author Topic: Best handheld dmm, at any price?  (Read 42142 times)

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Offline VEGETA

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #150 on: April 12, 2018, 09:35:53 am »
Measuring capacitance with a multimeter is like measuring DC with an oscilloscope.

I do it.

Scope is suitable for this but if I want just a number and not a signal, I would use DMM.

Offline Synthtech

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #151 on: April 12, 2018, 09:50:50 am »
Measuring capacitance with a multimeter is like measuring DC with an oscilloscope.

I do it.

Scope is suitable for this but if I want just a number and not a signal, I would use DMM.

Agreed. I use my multimeters generally for checking capacitance values of new parts and reach for the LCR meter when I want to check ESR or other parameters or for tight tolerance selection.
 

Offline LoFi

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #152 on: April 12, 2018, 06:01:15 pm »
And I have a question: Why Fluke 87 is always the most used one? always considered the standard... can someone explain this?

The same story like Kalashnikov rifle.
Hhhh not really. the AK47 has real advantages over the others, known and measurable advantages.


Fluke pioneered the development of DMMs back in the 1970s and built their reputation on good performance, reliability, accuracy, robustness.  No one else has quite that kind of long-running track record, and that counts for a lot with people who bet their lives and livelihoods on how well a multimeter performs.

Re 'real advantages'; many cheap meters are pretty accurate these days.  What might a Fluke 87V do that these cheaper meters don't?:

- extremely fast continuity check.  It's strange that most other meters don't seem to get this right.
- quick performance with other measurements as well (this often doesn't show up in spec sheets, but matters in day-to-day use)
- autohold - not just the usual manual 'data' hold.  Autohold is *very* useful.  I think Hioki may offer this, but don't know if anyone else does.
- bar graph - very handy when watching changing signals. Some other meters provide this, some don't... but I really like having it.
- very useful min/max/average and peak min/max measurements. Some meters omit this, or leave out average or peak (transient)
- diode check will light up all LEDs and report the voltage drop.  Many good meters won't do this.
- within any given measurement, an 87v will typically provide a wider range of measurement than most cheap meters
- lifetime warranty
- Proven track record of reliability, accuracy, robustness

Now the above advantages won't matter to everyone, and if they don't matter too much for what you need then a Fluke may not be worth considering.  But the features above are all quite useful.
"Don't play stupid with me... I'm better at it."
 

Offline hgjdwx

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #153 on: April 13, 2018, 04:48:55 am »
Digital multimeter has many application skills that you find.
For example, use the PEAK function to discover fleeting abnormalities.
Use Z-LOW to discharge the electrolytic capacitor.
Inline resistance measurement using a low open circuit voltage resistance range
Use AC and DC dual display multimeters (100KHZ, true RMS) to quick evaluation power quality.
Utilize the digital multimeter DCV 1uV resolution Cooperate with the pointer multimeter, fast look for the short circuit point in the circuit.

There is also the diode range of the digital multimeter. It is better to have a high open circuit voltage and high display voltage.
And it is better to show the open circuit voltage than to show the over-range "OL" on the open circuit.
Protek 223 is like this, so that it has greater flexibility to adapt to a wider range of circuit measurements.

Digital multimeter can also be combined with pointer multimeter to in-line test optocoupler

Digital multimeter DCV stable 1uV resolution is very useful.
I often use it and the pointer multimeter to find the short circuit point in the circuit, more accurate than milliohmmeter.
At this point the DT4282 does a better job. It not only has a DCV resolution of 1uV, the key is very stable.
Although other tables have a 1uV resolution, the drift is relatively large.

Attached:
To find the short circuit point in the circuit, I have a simple method.
With the pointer multimeter R*1 range and FLUKE187 DC 50mV range (resolution up to 1uV),
Method 1:
The red meter of the pointer multimeter is grounded, and the black test pen is connected to a short circuit (any point of the copper foil that is short-circuited is randomly connected).
The use of F187 50mV to measure the voltage on two direct solder joints on the copper foil. The voltage to the short-circuit point is larger (tens to hundreds of microvolts).
The voltage to the non-short circuit point is small (zero to a few microvolts). Look in the direction of the large voltage. You can quickly find the short-circuit point and you don't have to remove an extra part.
Method 2:
First, use the left hand to hold the two pens of the digital watch and contact the two adjacent solder joints on the short-circuit power line respectively.
The right hand holds the pointer table two pens, the red watch pen is grounded, and the black pen touches the two solder joints in sequence.
For two measurements, the digital meter reading must be zero at a time. There is a large reading at a time and the direction of the zero voltage is the direction of the short circuit.

Some explanations:
You don't have to use FLUKE 187. The other four and a half meters can be used.
Of course, no pointer multimeter can also be replaced with a 100mA or 1A power supply.
In fact, the operation is very simple, you only need to follow the actual sketch of my drawing, and you will immediately understand!
Interested friends can set a short-circuit point artificially, test it, is not it very convenient?
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #154 on: April 13, 2018, 05:34:07 pm »
I thought that was a stargate dialler for a minute.
 

Offline Neomys Sapiens

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #155 on: April 13, 2018, 07:27:50 pm »
I thought that was a stargate dialler for a minute.
Probably the illegitimate spawn of such and a room thermostate, conceived during full moon in a severely toxic landfill.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #156 on: April 18, 2018, 04:15:58 am »
Somebody just posted a video in the 121GW thread that shows autoranging speed of the Hioki DT4282 vs. other meters.

It appears* to show that the Hioki is the fastest of the bunch, faster than a Fluke 87V.

(and much faster than a 121GW)



(*) Testing methodology is suspect - can you connect meters in parallel to measure resistance?
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 05:12:26 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Synthtech

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #157 on: April 18, 2018, 08:28:15 am »
Multimeters in parallel measuring resistance makes no sense to me.
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #158 on: April 18, 2018, 08:33:32 am »
Most of the DMMs use a current source of some description and then measure the voltage across the resistor.

Apply superposition theorem/KCL and the answer is obvious :)
 
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Offline bd139

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #159 on: April 18, 2018, 08:56:13 am »
Just to back up how bad this can get, here are two meters measuring the same resistor. The GDM-8341 is spot on and does not change if the Keysight one is connected or not. Resistor is a 1k 1/4W 5% carbon film jobby

 
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Offline glarsson

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #160 on: April 18, 2018, 08:57:42 am »
Highly suspect. It should work when the probes are shorted, but the meters will influence each other when the probes are open. Just look at the Fluke. When the other meters show overflow the Fluke shows numbers. This means that the starting state of the meters are different and that the time until the meters show "0" might be different than what it would be without meters connected together.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #161 on: April 18, 2018, 09:03:00 am »
Highly suspect. It should work when the probes are shorted, but the meters will influence each other when the probes are open. Just look at the Fluke. When the other meters show overflow the Fluke shows numbers. This means that the starting state of the meters are different and that the time until the meters show "0" might be different than what it would be without meters connected together.

On the plus side: The Fluke is showing megaohms, which I assume is the highest range. It's not starting out in the middle.

Just to back up how bad this can get, here are two meters measuring the same resistor. The GDM-8341 is spot on and does not change if the Keysight one is connected or not. Resistor is a 1k 1/4W 5% carbon film jobby

It obviously won't work for a 1k resistor. The best we can hope for is that all the meters will drop down to their bottom range when the leads are shorted.

It looks like that's what's happening but by luck, not design.
« Last Edit: April 18, 2018, 09:08:37 am by Fungus »
 

Offline niner_007

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #162 on: May 19, 2018, 07:58:21 am »
It doesn't exists, they kinda all have issues, limitations or are disappointing one way or another :) There's little innovation as well. I have a few 87Vs and a 289. My definition of best:

- dual (at least) or quad inputs, measuring voltage, current etc simultaneously and independently (displaying them too)
- small profile, the 289 is too big, the 87V is too big! there is a lot of space in the 87V that can be used better
- logging built in, multimeters without some form of logging are useless; with both external and internal logging, with a lot of internal memory
- simple and intuitive interface, no more dials, and much better interface than the 289
- rechargeable cells with built in charger, 18650 cells please!
- external connectivity, USB mass storage (SD card is less desirable), but no optical please! this is not the 80s
- a form of wireless connectivity (mandatory): Wi-Fi, ZigBee or LoRa; if Wi-Fi, it needs to be secure, things like the ESP8266 are not acceptable for this; no Bluetooth please
- a form of wired connectivity, Ethernet (isolated) would be the best, USB, less so
- easy user calibration
- fast updates, 10ksps at least
- 200,000 counts at least
- no ASICs or multimeter ICs, should only use off the shelf discrete parts!
- should use a large display, it really doesn't need a lot of buttons with a menu system; it should use a knob, kind of like dial, but smaller, with an optical encoder, for navigating the menu system
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #163 on: May 19, 2018, 08:39:06 am »
My definition of best:
...

Sounds awful.  :--

« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 09:13:26 am by Fungus »
 

Offline Electro Detective

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #164 on: May 19, 2018, 10:12:24 am »
My definition of best:
...

Sounds awful.  :--


He forgot to include the mega dollar wireless to wireless calibrator to ensure the meter is behaving at all times

and internet connectivity to download and install 24/7 firmware updates (morning, brunch, lunch, dinner, dessert, cigarette, and night time builds) for the meter and calibrator 


till the money runs out and it's Ebay flogging time.. before a new model gets released and no one wants the last buggy model with OLED crappery   :-[

 ;D
« Last Edit: May 19, 2018, 10:17:34 am by Electro Detective »
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #165 on: May 19, 2018, 10:47:38 am »
Just to back up how bad this can get, here are two meters measuring the same resistor. The GDM-8341 is spot on and does not change if the Keysight one is connected or not. Resistor is a 1k 1/4W 5% carbon film jobby
:palm: Perhaps you need to think first on HOW a DMM measures resistance and after that about why putting two DMMs in parallel isn't going to work!
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
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Offline ogden

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #166 on: June 01, 2018, 07:06:24 pm »
Just to back up how bad this can get, here are two meters measuring the same resistor. The GDM-8341 is spot on and does not change if the Keysight one is connected or not. Resistor is a 1k 1/4W 5% carbon film jobby
:palm: Perhaps you need to think first on HOW a DMM measures resistance and after that about why putting two DMMs in parallel isn't going to work!

Perhaps you need to check your vision  :-DD

Most of the DMMs use a current source of some description and then measure the voltage across the resistor.
 
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Offline scopeman

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #167 on: June 01, 2018, 07:22:28 pm »
I really still like my Fluke 77 (original series, not II or III or IV).
When I just have to grab a meter and do some troubleshooting, I always seem to gravitate towards the 77.
Sure, it does not have all the bells & whistles but it's accurate and fast.  Plus, I just came across a NOS one on the auction site.

I still have probably a half dozen of those meters. Still one of my favorite meters for everyday use. They run forever on a carbon zinc 9V. I think if I put a 9V ultimate Lithium in it it would probably last the rest of my life!

Sam
W3OHM
W3OHM
 

Offline niner_007

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #168 on: June 02, 2018, 10:10:19 pm »
You can't measure the cap value in circuit. You're then measuring the circuit's capacitance.
yes, that is required too.

Anyway, I wanted to know how +400$ DMM cannot measure capacitance accurately while a lot less LCR meter can do it perfectly. They both have MCU and ADC to do the final job... so why?
the analog frontend of a traditional multimeter is very different from that of a LCR meter, that's where most of the BOM and design is; the ADC and MCU is insignificant relative to that
 

Offline niner_007

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #169 on: June 03, 2018, 03:02:53 am »
If price were not a consideration, which handheld DMM would you most like to have (for electronics work) , and why?
Currently high on my list is the Keysight 1272 or generally the 1200 series, specs are okay, but the internal construction is important to me, and this one has a beautiful discrete construction; nothing is worse than a product that has good specs and works properly but is ugly on the inside, speaking for myself here, I understand not everyone feels the same :) I hate when handheld meters use an ASIC or one of those multimeter ICs, that's honestly quite enough for me to turn it down, if it can be avoided. Anyone feels the same?
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 06:36:37 am by niner_007 »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #170 on: June 03, 2018, 05:32:23 am »
Currently high on my list is the Keysight 1272 or generally the 1200 series, specs are okay, but the internal construction is important to me, and this one has a beautiful discrete construction; nothing is worse than a product that has good specs and works properly but is ugly on the inside, speaking for myself here, I understand not everyone feels the same :) I hate when handheld meters use an ASIC or one of those multimeter ICs, that's honestly quite enough for me to turn it down. Anyone feels the same?
What's wrong with a properly designed ASIC? They're cost effective, they're reliable and they're energy efficient. They should bring benefits to basically all important areas.
 

Offline niner_007

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #171 on: June 03, 2018, 06:32:49 am »
Currently high on my list is the Keysight 1272 or generally the 1200 series, specs are okay, but the internal construction is important to me, and this one has a beautiful discrete construction; nothing is worse than a product that has good specs and works properly but is ugly on the inside, speaking for myself here, I understand not everyone feels the same :) I hate when handheld meters use an ASIC or one of those multimeter ICs, that's honestly quite enough for me to turn it down. Anyone feels the same?
What's wrong with a properly designed ASIC? They're cost effective, they're reliable and they're energy efficient. They should bring benefits to basically all important areas.
they are basically closed IP, that you cannot get into or source, if it fails, it's gone, it's less likely to get a replacement and on old test tools, you can completely forget about it; from a learning perspective, hard to understand as well; I probably wouldn't be as against it if their design and source code was open, but that's never happening
« Last Edit: June 03, 2018, 06:34:41 am by niner_007 »
 

Offline bricksnmortar

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #172 on: December 22, 2022, 02:00:04 am »
I know this thread has been dormant for a while but in the interests of answering the OP it seems as if "best" (subjective I know given differences in what people want like logging) seems to be narrowing down to a meter from each of the tier 1 manufacturers (for want of a better description). I like coming up with answers to these types of questions because it gives manufacturers a pat on the back for a job well done. These models seem to be
Brymen 869s
Fluke 187 (seems to have more 'votes' than the 289 series)
Hioki DT4282
Gossen Metrahit 30M (or its newer replacement, looks like the Metrahit Ultra)
Keysight (maybe something like the u1253b)

Is that a fair list? And if so who are you leaning to for the crown (maybe putting aside size or battery leakage issues)? Since this is eevblog we are discussing an electronics focus, probably as a mix of bench and field but standing on its own (so not thought of as in conjunction with the capabilities of your bench DMM or other devices you personally own).
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 04:00:18 am by bricksnmortar »
 

Offline Excavatoree

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #173 on: December 22, 2022, 02:46:28 am »
About 100 Fluke 70 series, a couple of 87-Vs, a 189, an 89, various other misc. Flukes, and a couple 189-IIs.  (LOL, sorry)

Seriously:
I know it'd be a Gossen, but really, they are so out of consideration I don't even know which one, exactly.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 02:48:19 am by Excavatoree »
 

Offline HKJ

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Re: Best handheld dmm, at any price?
« Reply #174 on: December 22, 2022, 06:03:08 am »
I know this thread has been dormant for a while but in the interests of answering the OP it seems as if "best" (subjective I know given differences in what people want like logging) seems to be narrowing down to a meter from each of the tier 1 manufacturers (for want of a better description). I like coming up with answers to these types of questions because it gives manufacturers a pat on the back for a job well done. These models seem to be
Brymen 869s
Fluke 187 (seems to have more 'votes' than the 289 series)
Hioki DT4282
Gossen Metrahit 30M (or its newer replacement, looks like the Metrahit Ultra)
Keysight (maybe something like the u1253b)

Is that a fair list?

Not really, see this list: https://lygte-info.dk/info/DMMHigh-end%20UK.html

 


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