Author Topic: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)  (Read 34280 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline MerlijnDTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 11
  • Country: nl
Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« on: December 22, 2022, 02:22:03 pm »
Hello everyone,

I work at a company that develops and manufacturs diesel rotary ups units. I myself work at service as a work preparator and manage the tools that our service technicians use at the customer.
We use Fluke 87v's and 287's; but they are very expensive here in the Netherlands. We are not bound to using Fluke's; i've looked at the DMM table and some video's but i'm missing important info about durability.

Our electrical engineers use their multimeter extensively during commisioning and annual maintenance. They handle them with normal care but they get dropped sometimes. They use more advanced features aswell and prefer a display that is able to display frequency and voltage at the same time.

Our mechanical engineers use their multimeter to check for safety and basic voltages, these multimeters get greasy, oily and more manhandled.

I was wondering if you people have any alternatives to Fluke for this type of work which are cheaper but offer the same features and are also durable/rugged? It must also have the option to attach a magnetic hanger.
Thanks for your time  :D

Greetings,
Merlijn
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 02:31:35 pm by MerlijnD »
 

Offline Tomorokoshi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1212
  • Country: us
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2022, 02:42:55 pm »
1. Do the meters have a regular calibration schedule?

2. Let's say the cost of a Fluke is $1000, and the cost of an alternative is $100. It only takes one failure event to lose this savings.

3. I have used both Fluke and non-Fluke meters. I have had failures with both and great reliability with both.

4. Do you trust the certifications of the meters and any assorted test leads and accessories?
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17518
  • Country: 00
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2022, 02:44:43 pm »
Take a look at Brymen's industrial range (the square looking ones). The "industrial" meters have recessed screens, etc.. for extra toughness.

https://brymen.eu/product-category/multimeters/page/2/

Joe has tested Brymens with various solvents in his robustness videos, they all passed.

Brymens are also rated for drops, etc.

A BM857s will match a Fluke 87V on most specs for 160 Euros.

If you don't need such precision you can get a safe, decent meter for under 100 Euros, eg. the BM907s.

You can get calibrated Brymens from welectron, eg: https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM857s-Multimeter_1


« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 02:53:28 pm by Fungus »
 
The following users thanked this post: I wanted a rude username, MerlijnD

Offline jonpaul

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3656
  • Country: fr
  • Analog, magnetics, Power, HV, Audio, Cinema
    • IEEE Spectrum
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2022, 03:05:16 pm »
In an industrial work on large mains machines and UPS, with voltages like 230V..480V, and currents of 100s A, I would not trust a consumer Chinese meter, poor safety and compliance and not robust.

Our Fluke meters last decades and have dropproof rubber enclosures and meet all safety specs.  You may find some used in great condition on eBay,or local classifieds sites.

Other good brands in EU old Philips, French Metrix (?), US Kline, Keithley, etc.

See  Transmission and Distribution magazine for professional utility equipment

Bon courage

Jon
An Internet Dinosaur...
 
The following users thanked this post: MerlijnD

Offline MerlijnDTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 11
  • Country: nl
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2022, 03:08:32 pm »
Yes, they are calibrated every year.

Certification and safety is very important. By cheaper I mean a max of 400-500 euro per multimeter.
 

Online BillyO

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: ca
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2022, 04:02:04 pm »
2. Let's say the cost of a Fluke is $1000, and the cost of an alternative is $100. It only takes one failure event to lose this savings.
You might want to expand on your math.  If one casts $1000 and the other cost $100, then the cheaper one only needs to last 1/10 the time before the saving are lost.  Do you have another consideration you are factoring in that we don't know about?


US Kline
Do Kline actually make any of their meters?

To the OP:  Brymen's top level meters generally meet all the same specs as Fluke and are also independently certified by the same people (UL)  to meet those specs.  I would suggest getting a couple and trying them out.  See for yourself how they stand up.
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
--------------------------------------------------
 
The following users thanked this post: Specmaster

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17518
  • Country: 00
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2022, 04:06:07 pm »
To the OP:  Brymen's top level meters generally meet all the same specs as Fluke and are also independently certified by the same people (UL)  to meet those specs.  I would suggest getting a couple and trying them out.  See for yourself how they stand up.

This.

Next time you need to order a Fluke, order three Brymens instead and see how they "measure(ahem) up".

You could even deliberately try to break one of them.  :popcorn:
 
The following users thanked this post: Specmaster

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17518
  • Country: 00
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2022, 04:13:44 pm »
In an industrial work on large mains machines and UPS, with voltages like 230V..480V, and currents of 100s A, I would not trust a consumer Chinese meter, poor safety and compliance and not robust.

The world has more than just "Fluke" and "Chinese consumer" meters in it.

Our Fluke meters last decades and have dropproof rubber enclosures and meet all safety specs.  You may find some used in great condition on eBay,or local classifieds sites.

If safety is important then you shouldn't be buying anything second hand through unknown channels.

(would you buy a used climbing rope on eBay?)
 

Offline Tomorokoshi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1212
  • Country: us
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2022, 04:17:48 pm »
2. Let's say the cost of a Fluke is $1000, and the cost of an alternative is $100. It only takes one failure event to lose this savings.
You might want to expand on your math.  If one casts $1000 and the other cost $100, then the cheaper one only needs to last 1/10 the time before the saving are lost.  Do you have another consideration you are factoring in that we don't know about?


US Kline
Do Kline actually make any of their meters?

To the OP:  Brymen's top level meters generally meet all the same specs as Fluke and are also independently certified by the same people (UL)  to meet those specs.  I would suggest getting a couple and trying them out.  See for yourself how they stand up.

We can consider the total costs of a failure in the field. Feel free to propose other numbers.
1. Starting with the savings: $900
2. The cost of one replacement: $100
3. The cost of getting a replacement ordered. An hour or two of office time: $100
4. The opportunity cost of waiting for the replacement to arrive. A couple days of lower-priority work: $500
5. The opportunity cost of having the technician without the tool at the customer. A few hours of field time: $500
6. The downtime cost at the customer if the technician can't get work done: $500 (Depends greatly on the situation. Could be multiples of this amount.)
7. The cost of reputation, etc.: ?

The point being that the line-item cost difference is easily noticed and accounted for, while difficult to identify costs don't enter into the accounting. For instance, is it trivially easy to purchase the new meter, or does a purchase requisition have to get filled out, get approval, go to Purchasing, wait for delivery, etc. That differential is difficult to measure, but it shows up as an indistinct "tax" or drag on efficiency and productivity.
 
The following users thanked this post: BillyO

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17518
  • Country: 00
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2022, 04:23:56 pm »
We can consider the total costs of a failure in the field. Feel free to propose other numbers.
1. Starting with the savings: $900
2. The cost of one replacement: $100
3. The cost of getting a replacement ordered. An hour or two of office time: $100
4. The opportunity cost of waiting for the replacement to arrive. A couple days of lower-priority work: $500
5. The opportunity cost of having the technician without the tool at the customer. A few hours of field time: $500
6. The downtime cost at the customer if the technician can't get work done: $500 (Depends greatly on the situation. Could be multiples of this amount.)

All of that applies to Flukes, too.  :-//

Flukes aren't more expensive because they're more reliable, they're more expensive because they're yellow and recognizable.
 

Offline jonpaul

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3656
  • Country: fr
  • Analog, magnetics, Power, HV, Audio, Cinema
    • IEEE Spectrum
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2022, 04:37:40 pm »
Does the OP REALLY need all the logging and graphics and interface of the 287?

The downsides are bulky batteries, slow boot up and fragile large TFT screen, easy to break


For UPS><rotation machines, I would think a simple DVM CAT II or CAT III rated  for the V and I max, eg 1000 VAC VDC and 10..20A will suffice at a fraction of the cst.

I sometime  find bargains at ebay, LeBonCoin, ham fleas that are old meters new in the box.

CORRECTION: Kline/Milwalkie are just line hot testes and clamp on ammeters. No real DVMs.

Jon

All our good one are Fluke, a few old Keithley.

For 50 yrs the analog Simpson 260 has been an industry warhorse as well as the somewhat rarer Triplett 630
An Internet Dinosaur...
 

Offline Tomorokoshi

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1212
  • Country: us
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2022, 04:53:10 pm »
We can consider the total costs of a failure in the field. Feel free to propose other numbers.
1. Starting with the savings: $900
2. The cost of one replacement: $100
3. The cost of getting a replacement ordered. An hour or two of office time: $100
4. The opportunity cost of waiting for the replacement to arrive. A couple days of lower-priority work: $500
5. The opportunity cost of having the technician without the tool at the customer. A few hours of field time: $500
6. The downtime cost at the customer if the technician can't get work done: $500 (Depends greatly on the situation. Could be multiples of this amount.)

All of that applies to Flukes, too.  :-//

Flukes aren't more expensive because they're more reliable, they're more expensive because they're yellow and recognizable.

Possibly; but the proposition was that one could by a number of other meters and balance the cost when they fail. The meters are not used in standard conditions, so it's difficult to develop a statistical model of failures. For instance, if an organization had 2000 meters in active use, 1000 each of Fluke and some other meter, and they had certain replacement rates, then one could run some actuarial math and determine the best overall value. This becomes more difficult as the number of units becomes low and the usage conditions are varied.

Therefore, one is limited to a certain amount of reliance on reputation, internet stories, and internet claims - of all kinds.
 

Offline coromonadalix

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7001
  • Country: ca
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2022, 05:52:59 pm »
the 287 and 289 are in no ways industrial meters  loll

you had this one
https://www.tequipment.net/Fluke87V-EX.html

replaced by
https://www.tequipment.net/Fluke28IIEX-ETL.html

Absolutely not in the prices ranges you want
 

Online BillyO

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1848
  • Country: ca
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2022, 06:44:03 pm »
Therefore, one is limited to a certain amount of reliance on reputation, internet stories, and internet claims - of all kinds.

That's why I suggested the OP buy a Brymen and try it out.  Minimal cost .. actual experience .. can't beat that
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
--------------------------------------------------
 

Offline MerlijnDTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 11
  • Country: nl
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2022, 06:59:10 pm »
About the datalogging on the 287; is it needed? No, some very experienced engineers might use it but very very rarely.

I will have a look at the Brymens; which one should I try out? The 867/869 has the option for two measurements at once I saw in the excel sheet. They are also very cheap. Or the 839?
And maybe try out the rugged brymen for the mechanical people; and the more advanced version for electrical engineers.

We have dedicated amp meters for unit load testing; >3600kva

Is Uni-T even worth looking at?
« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 07:10:15 pm by MerlijnD »
 

Offline BeBuLamar

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1420
  • Country: us
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2022, 08:52:10 pm »
If I were the OP I wouldn't want to try to save money. I don't want to piss off the engineers. I may buy other brands other than Fluke like Gossen, Yokogawa etc.. I know that those meters along with Fluke offer little over the cheaper ones for the money but I wouldn't want to save a buck in this case.
 

Online bdunham7

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8175
  • Country: us
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2022, 09:44:37 pm »
Quote from: MerlijnD
Is Uni-T even worth looking at?

The top Brymen models are probably adequate, but if you are going to offer your engineers and techs non-Fluke instruments you will probably hear about it.  And if you offer them Uni-T, you'll likely be drawn and quartered. 

What is motivating you to do this change?
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
The following users thanked this post: Fungus

Offline MerlijnDTopic starter

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 11
  • Country: nl
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2022, 10:17:22 pm »
I cannot explain the why in much regard.

But this is for us the best time to look into alternatives because:

Fluke's double measurement on 1 display is extremely expensive but the most used/requested feature for vfds and or generator mains failure frequency verification etc.
The fact that we keep extra stock and loan sets when their main equipment is being calibrated. (All our current loan sets are old and broken and some of the engineers main fluke stuff is breaking down as well. Current replacement stock in-office is zero).

I've seen a couple people mention Yogokawa; we use alot of their equipment in office and in other parts of our business.

« Last Edit: December 22, 2022, 10:21:49 pm by MerlijnD »
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline Black Phoenix

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1137
  • Country: hk
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #18 on: December 23, 2022, 03:35:13 am »
The Yokogawa TY530 is the same model as the Kyoritsu 1051, same as the Yokogawa TY720 is the Kyoritsu 1061 if the memory doesn't fail me.

This last 2 have logging capacity.
 
The following users thanked this post: MerlijnD

Online bdunham7

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 8175
  • Country: us
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #19 on: December 23, 2022, 04:33:50 am »
The fact that we keep extra stock and loan sets when their main equipment is being calibrated. (All our current loan sets are old and broken and some of the engineers main fluke stuff is breaking down as well. Current replacement stock in-office is zero).

You could start by acquiring a couple of Brymens or whatever you are considering and setting up your loan sets with those.  Then you'll get some feedback that may help determine how acceptable they would be as a general replacement.
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 

Offline Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 17518
  • Country: 00
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #20 on: December 23, 2022, 05:56:22 am »
I will have a look at the Brymens; which one should I try out? The 867/869 has the option for two measurements at once I saw in the excel sheet.

And maybe try out the rugged brymen for the mechanical people; and the more advanced version for electrical engineers.

The 869s is Brymen's top model. It's one of the best meters available and has CAT IV 1000V safety rating (higher than any Fluke) and has dual display, eg. voltage/frequency simultaneously. The screen is a bit too exposed to throw it in a toolbox though.

The 859s is their top "industrial" meter.

Both models have cheaper versions without temperature and less TRMS bandwidth.

Start with the 869s - it's obviously bigger than a Fluke and has dual display so it will be easier to "sell" to engineers. After that you can get some of the less flashy 857s for situations where a simpler meter that can take more abuse is indicated.

Is Uni-T even worth looking at?

Absolutely not.

If I were the OP I wouldn't want to try to save money. I don't want to piss off the engineers.

This is also true. Brymen have earned their reputation on EEVBLOG but the rest of the world doesn't know much about them. The engineers might feel you're trying to pinch pennies at their expense if they've got used to yellow meters and you give them something that isn't yellow.

« Last Edit: December 23, 2022, 08:52:33 am by Fungus »
 
The following users thanked this post: MerlijnD

Offline nightfire

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 587
  • Country: de
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #21 on: December 23, 2022, 08:24:52 am »
Alternatives to Fluke regarding safety and reliability? Aaaand a calibration structure behind them? Gossen Metrawatt comes to mind, but they are usually more expensive than Fluke- or maybe one of the newer models has some useful features to it than the existing Fluke meters. Also Hioki looks nice, but I have no first-hand experience with them.
 

Offline daisizhou

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 926
  • Country: cn
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #22 on: December 23, 2022, 09:17:55 am »
Look at this one, the latest may be 27.Note that 27 is not equal to 27/FM.
I think 27/FM is the only one if you consider durability.Because the latest 27ii or 28ii are not as good as 27/FM, you can check the 27/FM shell or dial switch.Shock resistance is key
daisizhou#sina.com #=@
 

Offline Specmaster

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 14483
  • Country: gb
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #23 on: December 23, 2022, 09:48:22 am »
Dam, the quoting system has gone down again, so I'll have to cut and copy and hope that you all can catch my drift.

    Quote from: Tomorokoshi on Yesterday at 02:42:55 pm

        2. Let's say the cost of a Fluke is $1000, and the cost of an alternative is $100. It only takes one failure event to lose this savings.

    You might want to expand on your math.  If one casts $1000 and the other cost $100, then the cheaper one only needs to last 1/10 the time before the saving are lost.  Do you have another consideration you are factoring in that we don't know about?


    Quote from: jonpaul on Yesterday at 03:05:16 pm

        US Kline

    Do Kline actually make any of their meters?

    To the OP:  Brymen's top level meters generally meet all the same specs as Fluke and are also independently certified by the same people (UL)  to meet those specs.  I would suggest getting a couple and trying them out.  See for yourself how they stand up.


We can consider the total costs of a failure in the field. Feel free to propose other numbers.
1. Starting with the savings: $900
2. The cost of one replacement: $100
3. The cost of getting a replacement ordered. An hour or two of office time: $100
4. The opportunity cost of waiting for the replacement to arrive. A couple days of lower-priority work: $500
5. The opportunity cost of having the technician without the tool at the customer. A few hours of field time: $500
6. The downtime cost at the customer if the technician can't get work done: $500 (Depends greatly on the situation. Could be multiples of this amount.)
7. The cost of reputation, etc.: ?

The point being that the line-item cost difference is easily noticed and accounted for, while difficult to identify costs don't enter into the accounting. For instance, is it trivially easy to purchase the new meter, or does a purchase requisition have to get filled out, get approval, go to Purchasing, wait for delivery, etc. That differential is difficult to measure, but it shows up as an indistinct "tax" or drag on efficiency and productivity.


Surely then it makes perfect sense with the high costs attached to meter failure and the lower purchase price of the excellent Brymen 867/869 meters that you could comfortably afford to order in a few extra meters to allow for such unlikely events? That way, if and when you do happen to get a failure, issue another one from stock and start the process of ordering a replacement so that will always have a small float of meters to hand for emergency use and still be way under the cost of getting new Fluke meters.  I have both Flukes and Brymen meters but only the Brymen has the CAT IV, 1,000V rating, and that is the meter I use for almost all of my measurements, it also has dual display and the barograph and can be retrofitted with data logging feature for those that really need it.

 
Who let Murphy in?

Brymen-Fluke-HP-Thurlby-Thander-Tek-Extech-Black Star-GW-Avo-Kyoritsu-Amprobe-ITT-Robin-TTi
 
The following users thanked this post: MerlijnD

Offline nightfire

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 587
  • Country: de
Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #24 on: December 23, 2022, 09:54:35 am »
One thing to add: In which environment are those UPS used? If they feed into some main distribution cabinet of a sufficient size and short circuit potential, you are easily in a CAT IV zone- and then there is a limited choice of manufacturers I would trust. And then, including yearly cal and needed turnaround times, Fluke sometimes offers good longterm value, all costs added over a longer time.
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf