Author Topic: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)  (Read 22811 times)

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Online BillyO

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #100 on: December 26, 2022, 06:22:18 pm »
The case was dismissed because Southwire had the middle man status. So if the meter was a Fluke then Fluke woouldn't have such a status but if it's a Brymen made Greenlee then perhaps Greenlee can claim the middle man status just like Southwire.

That product liability middleman law is pretty weird.  Also, I think it varies state by state.
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 06:30:57 pm by BillyO »
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Online joeqsmith

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #101 on: December 26, 2022, 06:48:06 pm »
...
In the same document they pointed out several mistakes tech made. Also that meter was not made or claimed to be made for (Ex) environment, which a coal mine would be (both coal dust and methane risk). That is wrong example...
In that case not even Fluke would be a good brand, but only certified (Ex) models.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=fluke+ex+rated

Fluke offers the 28 II EX along with a thermometer. 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #102 on: December 26, 2022, 07:06:31 pm »
...
In the same document they pointed out several mistakes tech made. Also that meter was not made or claimed to be made for (Ex) environment, which a coal mine would be (both coal dust and methane risk). That is wrong example...
In that case not even Fluke would be a good brand, but only certified (Ex) models.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=fluke+ex+rated

Fluke offers the 28 II EX along with a thermometer.

I explained that later: my poor English. I meant not just any Fluke will do, but only Fluke equipment made to standard. And yes, I would trust Fluke to make Ex meter right.
 
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Offline Fungus

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #103 on: December 26, 2022, 07:07:25 pm »
...
In the same document they pointed out several mistakes tech made. Also that meter was not made or claimed to be made for (Ex) environment, which a coal mine would be (both coal dust and methane risk). That is wrong example...
In that case not even Fluke would be a good brand, but only certified (Ex) models.

https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=fluke+ex+rated

Fluke offers the 28 II EX along with a thermometer.

I'd get one but the diode test voltage on the 28II is only 2V.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #104 on: December 26, 2022, 07:08:03 pm »
Can you provide a link or a citation to any kind of a record or an article of or about someone being killed by their modern multimeter in the last decade?  I have done Google searches and can't come up with anything, but may not be all that good at it.  In fact I usually suck at it.  I'd be interested to understand the circumstances.

It's been a long time since I have searched.  I'm sure Google would find a few hits.  This was the first one that came to mind but exceeds your decade.   I had posted about a friend who had a name brand meter blow up in his hands.  PPE saved them.  The meter sent in and found defective.

https://www.ecmweb.com/safety/arc-flash/article/20898038/the-case-of-the-deadly-arc-flash


https://www.cdc.gov/niosh/fire/reports/face9928.html
« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 07:18:29 pm by joeqsmith »
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #105 on: December 26, 2022, 07:10:55 pm »
Yep. If there's an arcflash hazard you shouldn't be relying on just the multimeter to save you.

Go look at the photos on the Fluke web site: Everybody's wearing big gloves, face shields, hearing protection... or more.



(Apart from the Fluke 179 guy in the red shirt, but he's a redshirt... :-DD )

« Last Edit: December 26, 2022, 07:21:26 pm by Fungus »
 
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #106 on: December 26, 2022, 07:19:54 pm »
He's measuring a 24V control line in the cabinet.
 

Online joeqsmith

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #107 on: December 26, 2022, 08:06:53 pm »
Tried a search but was side tracked early with these kids and their eBay defibrillator. Looks like the cap is 36uF 5kV ish or 450J.   Dial shows 360J max.   They show it attached to a small light bulb but its less than climatic.   


Offline floobydust

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #108 on: December 26, 2022, 10:19:30 pm »
People- don't forget the test leads are also a safety concern and need to be approved i.e. to IEC 61010-031. Tests include wire thickness, high voltage, heat, chemicals (if applicable), tug/yank, drop/bend/impact, probe length etc. all of which are important where your hands are concerned.

But going into a MV motor control cabinet with a LV multimeter is of course a mistake. Ref. Eddie Adams arc-flash fatality. The contactor's coils are LV but one probe to the wrong spot (MV) and it's very bad. Or open control cabinets in the rain, using multimeters then is dangerous. Workplaces need policies around the multimeter usage as a "safe" multimeter can still be used unsafely. Even allowing work alone was not permitted by one of my employers, you could get electrocuted in a substation and nobody would know.
 

Offline AVGresponding

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #109 on: December 26, 2022, 10:31:01 pm »
He's measuring a 24V control line in the cabinet.

Indeed, but it's highly likely that there will be mains in that cabinet, and quite possibly multiphase mains at that.

3ph UPS bypass switches can be fun; it's easy for a bit of brain fade to make those exceptionally dangerous.
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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #110 on: December 28, 2022, 02:49:51 pm »
He's measuring a 24V control line in the cabinet.

Indeed, but it's highly likely that there will be mains in that cabinet, and quite possibly multiphase mains at that.

3ph UPS bypass switches can be fun; it's easy for a bit of brain fade to make those exceptionally dangerous.


Probably 220V to a PSU for the 24V DC.

Power part of the machine isolated from the control part, with a 220V line from one of the phases, since by the image I don't see any 3 phase equipment in that cabinet.
 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #111 on: December 28, 2022, 05:57:47 pm »
The unit that is mounted on the door looks like the power supply but I am not sure. If there is no power supply perhaps the entire cabinet is powered by 24VDC and the power is coming from somewhere else.
 

Online bdunham7

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #112 on: December 28, 2022, 11:04:19 pm »
The MSHA document you posted says he was making a phase to phase measurement and goes on to specifically stress best practices should be phase to ground.

In any case, your point is taken.  A DMM was involved in an injury.  The MSHA determined that the meter did not meet it's IP67 rating, but did not say that was the cause of the failure.  I wonder what the UL report found?

Unfortunately for us rubbernecking meter geeks, we don't have a full record to examine nor was there any EEVBlog-style teardown and video to look at.  There's certainly a lot we don't know, including what the supposed nonconformities were in the meter.  I wasn't able to find much more information at the time.  I only brought it up then as an example of disreputable practices by manufacturers and now as an admittedly rare example of meter-related injuries.  Your statement that arc-flash incidents with a substandard meter as the primary cause are rare is probably true, but I'd say that a major factor in that is that people working on high-energy systems are unlikely to be using crap meters.  There was some chatter on other forums that I remember from that time where some electricians were essentially saying they would walk of the job before testing a 995 volt system with anything other than a Fluke while others were claiming that a DMM was not the proper tool for the job at all, regardless of brand.  I suspect the latter might be true--there are specialized medium and high voltage instruments for this purpose and an underground mine could be a CAT-IV environment which would rule out almost every meter I know of except the Brymens that are CAT IV/1000V (but not MSHA or IP67....)  I don't know if the OP is still around, but I think the question he might want to ask is "do I even want to be having this discussion?" 

As for mistakes by the tech or the mine operator, there may have been some, but that would be speculative unless someone has more info than I do.  Perhaps a DMM was the wrong tool or PPE was required, in which case the employer did not properly train or equip the electrician.  Perhaps the test leads were not appropriate, although I'm assuming from the MSHA statement that the meter failed internally.  The statement by the MSHA regarding phase-to-phase seems unfortunate to me, making a messy legal case even messier if not for the quick dismissal on other grounds.  I have seen this statement before about not doing phase-to-phase measurements, but this is not correct no matter who says it and anyone with experience with 3-phase systems testing could tell you why.  I realize that phase-to-ground will typically be a lower voltage and might be less susceptible to certain transients, but either your meter is rated for the voltage or it isn't. 

In some cases, phase-to-ground testing with a DMM will not spot certain problems.  This is why Fluke sells those very expensive 4-channel Scopemeters--they have high voltage probes and can measure all 3 phases at once, either relative to a common reference or not.  However, if you cannot directly measure the phase angle between your three readings like you can with a scope, your DMM cannot tell you what your phase-to-phase voltage is nor can you calculate it.  This can result in some difficult to understand issues. 

For an unlikely but easy-to-understand example, consider a 480V 3-phase wye supply with a ground-referenced neutral feeding a large isolated delta-wound motor through a remote contactor.  Now imagine the motor is not running and you want to know why.   Two of the wires from the contactor to the motor have gone open due to physical damage of some sort.  First you measure all 3 phases to ground in front of the contactor, you get ~277VAC for each.  Next you activate the motor and measure the phases after the contactor and again you get ~277VAC each time.  Finally, you crawl down some tunnel and measure at the motors junction box and again you get ~277VAC on each phase but the motor doesn't run.  You tell your boss to order a $20K motor and....

« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 12:21:26 am by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Online bdunham7

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #113 on: December 29, 2022, 12:29:12 am »
That product liability middleman law is pretty weird.  Also, I think it varies state by state.

It seems weird, but it is intended to protect hardware store proprietors from being liable for chainsaws that they sell and stuff like that.  The actual legal issues involved are also interesting and quite complex, but the result here would probably be different in many states.  One of the apparently interesting and perverse findings by the court was that if Southwire had taken any steps to inspect and test the meters to verify their quality and compliance, they might be liable.  And since their own statements now reflect that they have consulted with CEM to improve the meters and bring them into compliance, this defense would not work in the future.  This general legal theory is not unusual and may even be reasonable in many circumstances, but when it works in the favor of a company regarding liability for their own branded product, it seems a bit silly. 
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 12:54:20 am by bdunham7 »
A 3.5 digit 4.5 digit 5 digit 5.5 digit 6.5 digit 7.5 digit DMM is good enough for most people.
 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #114 on: December 29, 2022, 09:21:44 am »
Bonjour à tous,

Inspired by this discussion, I researched this for my own use.

I  Have 12 handheld DVMs(!),  but old and inaccurate or cheap Chinese junk. Also Keysight 34465a and Fluke 8842A, large 5.5..6.5 digit laboratory benchtop.

Have several Fluke  instrument like clamp on DVMs, line hot sticks, network testers, all great quality, made in USA not ChiCom. 

Decided  on Fluke 87V industrial DVM is the best value for a versatile, long lasting and useful tool. And still current catalogue.  The Fluke lifetime warranty is a big plus.

searching on epay, found several in auction, JUST won it like new condition, w/Fluke leads and yellow silicone wrap, for $240. Missing the  Fluke soft case C25 and thermocouple,  but those are unimportan.

I  will share my notes, calibration, tests and reviews.




Bon Soirée

Jon
« Last Edit: December 29, 2022, 09:28:20 am by jonpaul »
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Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #115 on: December 29, 2022, 12:07:45 pm »
The Fluke 87V doesn't always come with the case unless you buy a kit.
 
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Offline jonpaul

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #116 on: December 29, 2022, 02:32:22 pm »
For the price, it had no case, just the Fluke leads and yellow silicone wrap , Chinese clone soft cases $10..20. Unneeded for my use.

Most important was excellent condition almost unused.

Jon
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Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #117 on: December 29, 2022, 03:03:14 pm »
I use the Fluke 87V everyday and it's good for what I do but I do believe it's not good enough for the OP although it's not inexpensive. I think he wants dual display so that he can see voltage and frequency at the same time.
 

Online BillyO

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #118 on: December 29, 2022, 04:16:46 pm »
I  will share my notes, calibration, tests and reviews.
I'm not sure there is much calibration you are going to be able to do on the 87V, unless you have access to a Fluke 87V calibrator.
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Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #119 on: December 29, 2022, 04:19:52 pm »
I don't think he meant to calibrate it because to calibrate it but rather checking if the meter is within specs and whether will need a calibration or not.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #120 on: December 29, 2022, 05:22:49 pm »
calibration != adjustment
 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #121 on: December 29, 2022, 05:36:58 pm »
calibration != adjustment

I know but I think he meant he would check the calibration and not calibrate. You would need a calibrator that can communicate with the Fluke 87V via ultrasonic.
 

Offline py-bb

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #122 on: December 29, 2022, 06:27:56 pm »
I cannot explain the why in much regard.

But this is for us the best time to look into alternatives because:

Fluke's double measurement on 1 display is extremely expensive but the most used/requested feature for vfds and or generator mains failure frequency verification etc.
The fact that we keep extra stock and loan sets when their main equipment is being calibrated. (All our current loan sets are old and broken and some of the engineers main fluke stuff is breaking down as well. Current replacement stock in-office is zero).

I've seen a couple people mention Yogokawa; we use alot of their equipment in office and in other parts of our business.

What I'd do is try it. I'm glad you want to move away from Fluke as this might make them "work harder". As much as I'd love to see that change another "general rule" applies:

All changes disrupt something. Just generally this is true. For example muscle memory could have volts on the meter where amps is on the new ones (obviously a bad thing) - I use two differently coloured meters for this reason.

What I'd recommend you do is some research, buy say 1, 2 or 3 of them and dish them out and ask your team to use them concurrently - this may slow them down a little bit, see if that can be mitigated at least partially, get them on board.

Some have said here that they'd be 'upset' if not given Fluke gear to use, if there's a chance that the people you enlist to help you evaluate new meters could be seen as "the bastards that OKed the new meters" I'd tread carefully, but I've only ever rarely seen such adversarial relationships between managers and work teams. 
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #123 on: December 29, 2022, 06:40:51 pm »
I  will share my notes, calibration, tests and reviews.
I'm not sure there is much calibration you are going to be able to do on the 87V, unless you have access to a Fluke 87V calibrator.
The 87V service manual has full calibration instructions. The only equipment required is a Fluke 5500A calibrator or equivalent. It provides references only; the calibration is performed using just the multimeter’s controls.
calibration != adjustment

I know but I think he meant he would check the calibration and not calibrate. You would need a calibrator that can communicate with the Fluke 87V via ultrasonic.
As best I can tell, ultrasonic is a unidirectional data output. That is, if the 87V even has it. The original 87 user manual mentions ultrasonic output only in passing, and the service manual makes no mention of it. For the 87V, neither the user manual nor service manual make any mention of it.

In both cases, looking at the schematics of both the original 87 and the 87V, there’s no way to receive ultrasonic, so at most it exists as an output only, for use in production testing or something.
 

Offline Ugur

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Re: Good multimeter for Industrial use at work (Fluke alternatives)
« Reply #124 on: December 30, 2022, 06:40:10 am »
Beha Amprobe is a Fluke affiliate brand. Their prices are more affordable than Fluke and are of Fluke quality.
 


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