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BM235 LoZ Mode

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mbarszcz:
I use my multimeters for a combination of electronics and electrical work, and the LoZ mode of the BM235 was something that appealed to me, but the implementation of the mode seems to be quite different (worse) than the behavior on my Klein CL900 clamp meter (with LoZ).

On the Klein, the LoZ mode behaves much like the regular AC voltage measurement mode, except with a Low Impedance.  If I measure between the floating ground on my isolation transformer and the line/neutral, I get ~56VAC on the standard mode.  If I measure it with the LoZ setting, I get 0.0VAC on the Klein, exactly what I would expect a LoZ mode to do and be used for.

The manual of the BM235 seems to suggest that this is not simply a fixed low impedance mode (like what the Klein seems to do), but some sort of variable LoZ functionality, depending on what it is measuring.  It doesn't really get into how it behaves, and at what voltages, but just that it "ramps up".  The way it is worded also sounds like the LoZ really isn't that Lo when measuring higher voltages.

The manual states:

--- Quote ---*Ghost-voltage Buster: Ghost-voltages are unwanted stray signals coupled from
adjacent hard signals, which confuse common multimeter voltage measurements. The
AutoV mode provides low (ramp-up) input impedance (approx. 2.1kΩ at low voltage) to
drain ghost voltages leaving mainly hard signal values on meter readings. It is an
invaluable feature for precise indication of hard signals, such as distinguishing between
hot and open wires (to ground) in electrical installation applications.

--- End quote ---

If I measure my floating ground again with the BM235, on regular AC volts mode it reads ~56VAC much like the Klein.  However on LoZ mode, it reads ~7VAC.  Not 0V, but always 7V.  The LoZ is obviously doing something, but is it this variable ramp up nonsense that is causing it to read 7V instead of just bleeding off the stray voltage?  I wish Brymen wouldn't have made it with the annoying Auto AC/DC/Ranging setting.
 Why couldn't we just have the AC or DC modes with a Low Impedance?  It looks like the Fluke 117 has this strange auto ranging LoZ mode as well, maybe that's where Brymen copied it from.  Either way, dumb.

Anyway, does anyone have any more information around how the LoZ mode works on the BM235 better than the manual explains it?  Why does it not bleed off all the stray voltage like the Klein?  User error?  Strange design decisions?  Faulty?  Is it only a low impedance up to a certain voltage?

Kean:
The purpose of LoZ mode is not to give accurate readings at low voltage, but to indicate if a voltage reading is low impedance (potentially hazardous) or a high impedance (ghost) voltage.

If you read 56 VAC in normal AC measurement but something like 7 VAC in LoZ, then it indicates high impedance.
If you read 56 VAC in both modes, then it is low impedance and likely hazardous.

It is not a fixed input resistance in LoZ mode.  It is a combination of a fixed resistor in series with a PTC.  The PTC will start to heat up when a higher voltage is applied, and will increase in resistance the more it heats up.

This generally won't affect accuracy of low impedance readings too much, but if the input is left connected for a while to a low impedance voltage then the PTC can get quite hot and dramatically increase in resistance value.  It can take quite a few minutes for it to cool down and operate in the normal LoZ mode again, and thus high impedance voltage sources might read higher than expected.

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: mbarszcz on November 21, 2024, 02:49:51 am ---The manual of the BM235 seems to suggest that this is not simply a fixed low impedance mode (like what the Klein seems to do), but some sort of variable LoZ functionality, depending on what it is measuring.  It doesn't really get into how it behaves, and at what voltages, but just that it "ramps up".  The way it is worded also sounds like the LoZ really isn't that Lo when measuring higher voltages.

Anyway, does anyone have any more information around how the LoZ mode works on the BM235 better than the manual explains it?  Why does it not bleed off all the stray voltage like the Klein?  User error?  Strange design decisions?  Faulty?  Is it only a low impedance up to a certain voltage?

--- End quote ---

All of the Lo-Z function meters use a few kilohms in series with a PTC for the load.  Your Klein is no different, its manual states that the Lo-Z impedance is ">3kΩ" and it will go much higher as you apply more voltage.  If it didn't and you applied 480V at 3k, you'd be dissipating about 75 watts which wouldn't work out very well.  If you have a small leakage current then most Lo-Z meters will indicate near zero and the impedance will indeed be low.  The BM235 apparently has a design quirk feature (not the variable impedance thing, something else) that results in a minimum voltage drop of about 8V in the Lo-Z load circuit.  IDK what is in there that does that, but it is mentioned in the manual.  It really isn't important for the most commonly intended use of Lo-Z, but it is a bit weird I suppose.  The Fluke 117 should behave just like your Klein meter.

From the manual:

Dave's Note: You can use the AutoV LowZ mode to discharge capacitors to a safe
level! (Can be slow on big caps) You'll even get a handy voltage reading to know
when it's safely discharged. Note that the LowZ mode does not work under 8VDC,
at which point it will be a 10M discharge.

J-R:
If you read a bit further in the EEVblog BM235 manual, you'll find your answer to this behavior on page 26:

"Not specified at <8VDC    [I think they mean 8VAC]
Threshold: > 1VAC nominal
Input Impedance:
Initially approx. 2.1k, 164pF nominal; Impedance increases abruptly within a fraction
of a second as display voltage is above 8V (typical).
Impedances vs display voltages typically are:
12k @100V
100k @300V
240k @600V
580k @1000V
NOTE: The meter will NOT be low impedance for voltages under approximately 8V
DC. It will revert to the standard 10M"   [Who knows exactly what they mean here, see below.]


There is a more accurate explanation in the current version of the Brymen BM235 manual on page 19: http://www.brymen.com/images/ProductsList/BM230_List/BM230-print1-woCATII.pdf

"Not specified at <1VAC
Threshold: > 1VAC nominal
Approximate input impedance (//164pF) for reference:
At direct input </=50Vac (typical) from quiescence:
>8M@ < 5.6Vac
22k@ 7Vac
12k@ 8Vac
2.6k @ 50Vac
At direct input >>50V (typical) from quiescence:
Initial impedance is approximately 2.1k. Impedance increases abruptly within a
fraction of a second as display voltage (hard signal) is much higher than 50V (typical).
End-up impedances vs display voltages typically are:
12k@100V
100k@300V
240k@600V"

SO, that is the reason for the 7V AC reading.  This specific ghost voltage and the input impedance behavior of the BM235 are at equilibrium at around 7V AC.

I could make the case that the BM235 LoZ mode is at minimum misleading.  If it's not LoZ below 7V, then the label is essentially incorrect.

The BM789 LoZ mode behaves more like what we would expect.

bdunham7:

--- Quote from: J-R on November 22, 2024, 10:58:33 am ---SO, that is the reason for the 7V AC reading.  This specific ghost voltage and the input impedance behavior of the BM235 are at equilibrium at around 7V AC.

I could make the case that the BM235 LoZ mode is at minimum misleading.  If it's not LoZ below 7V, then the label is essentially incorrect.

--- End quote ---

I don't have one to test or disassemble, but I'm imagining there is something in the Lo-Z PTC circuit that needs to 'break down' to allow conductance, like a TVS or zener pair or something.  Thus it isn't an "equilibrium" but rather a threshold so that almost no 'ghost voltage' will ever read less than about 7V.  I agree it is misleading--not a problem for actual household electrical work but definitely an issue in other areas where you might be counting on a 2-3k impedance.

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