Brymen BM789

[Veteran68]

Brymens come in a lot of colo(u)rs.  I've seen red, blue and green.  Are there others?

Putting together a chromatic collection might be a good way to reduce my kid's inheritance.

Brymen's own branded meters are red.
Greenlee-branded Brymens are green.
Dave's eevBlog variants are blue.
FLIR's are black.
Evidently Fluke has also rebranded Brymens under both Fluke and Amprobe brands, so I assume they would adopt their standard holster/case colors (yellow and red) but I've not seen one to be sure.

[EEVblog]

Evidently Fluke has also rebranded Brymens under both Fluke and Amprobe brands

Which Fluke meter is a Brymen?

[bdunham7]

Which Fluke meter is a Brymen?

None are just rebadges where they put a different color holster or case on them, but at least some clamp meters are manufactured by Brymen.  The Fluke 373 is one example, although they don't exactly advertise it.  It doesn't match up with any Brymen model, but a while back, IIRC floobydust posted some bills of lading from Panjiva or some similar website showing that Brymen was importing "373 Clamp Meter, qty xxx" to Fluke Electronics.  Also, TEquipment shows the country of origin to be Taiwan.   

[bdunham7]

Brymens come in a lot of colo(u)rs.  I've seen red, blue and green.  Are there others?

Putting together a chromatic collection might be a good way to reduce my kid's inheritance.

Brymen's own branded meters are red.
Greenlee-branded Brymens are green.
Dave's eevBlog variants are blue.
FLIR's are black.
Evidently Fluke has also rebranded Brymens under both Fluke and Amprobe brands, so I assume they would adopt their standard holster/case colors (yellow and red) but I've not seen one to be sure.

There's orange as well.

https://www.tempocom.com/products/mm810-multimeter/

[Veteran68]

And as bdunham7 pointed out in the "Why do hobbyists buy expensive DMMs" thread, Fluke still shows up under ImportYeti as a Brymen "top customer":

[joeqsmith]

Not a Fluke but the Amprobe PM55A pocket meter is a Brymen BM27s. 

[J-R]

As I pointed out in previously, there is no direct proof that Brymen makes any Fluke meters.  The far more likely explanation for the documents presented is the fact that Brymen DOES make a few Amprobe clamp meters and both Amprobe and Fluke are owned by Fortive.  Also there is Beha-Amprobe which is a wholly owned subsidiary of Fluke and many of the addresses overlap.

[bdunham7]

As I pointed out in previously, there is no direct proof that Brymen makes any Fluke meters.

The evidence that Brymen makes the Fluke 373 Clamp Meter is (or was) about as direct as you are going to get.  Unfortunately you can't see the bill of lading anymore without an expensive subscription.  I may have saved a copy but don't have access at the moment. AFAIK nobody OEMs any of the regular Fluke handheld meters though.  Yet.

Edit: Here's a post with an excerpt:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/dead-brymen-bm869s/msg3606703/#msg3606703

[J-R]

The evidence wasn't direct at all.  I looked at the bill of lading myself.  There are so many other possible explanations for what was printed on it, the conclusion that Brymen manufactured the Fluke 373 is pretty far down the list.

If you check photos on eBay, you can see that the Fluke 373 meters have "Assembled in China" on the back, not Taiwan.

I honestly don't care if Brymen does make the Fluke 373, but I really think it's important for the health of the forums to be accurate when stating something as fact.


From what makes sense from a manufacturing perspective, it's a bit of a stretch in my mind for Brymen to make something that doesn't line up at all with their existing products.  It costs money for tooling and to change gears on the assembly line, so they are going to stick with rebrands.

Fluke also has plenty of manufacturing capabilities, and we know they make some of their products in China, especially the lower-end DMMs.

[bdunham7]

The evidence wasn't direct at all.  I looked at the bill of lading myself.  There are so many other possible explanations for what was printed on it, the conclusion that Brymen manufactured the Fluke 373 is pretty far down the list.

If you check photos on eBay, you can see that the Fluke 373 meters have "Assembled in China" on the back, not Taiwan.

OK, name one reasonable alternative explanation as to why Brymen would ship cartons of a product referred to as "Fluke 373 Digital Multimeters" to Fluke USA and the manual would say "Printed in Taiwan". 

The bill of lading was from 2012.  If you look you can find some that say "Assembled in China", some that say "Assembled in Taiwan" and a lot that don't say anything.  Those markings are on a battery door that is fully removable and fits at least 4 different models.  Perhaps some games are being played. Perhaps Brymen assembled some of them in China--many Taiwan companies have operations in mainland China and they surely aren't going to label their stuff there "Taiwan".  Perhaps things are different now or perhaps someone is trying to avoid the issue of whether Taiwan is part of China or not, IDK.

But as far as only doing simple rebadges, we know that isn't true.  Amprobe and FLIR have products that clearly have significant differences in cases and other things, yet it is pretty clear that they are Brymen derived.  Fluke is a big customer and I'm sure Brymen (or any other OEM) wouldn't have a problem with a custom order.

Here is a label from the box of a 2021-model.  Short of a clandestine visit to Taipei, IDK what else I can do.

[IanB]

Here is a label from the box of a 2021-model.  Short of a clandestine visit to Taipei, IDK what else I can do.

As far as it actually matters (which is not much), you could disassemble the meter and look at the markings on the PCB, as well as look at the general design and layout of the internal components and any markings on the inside of the case. If an OEM is involved, then they may leave some of their signatures behind during manufacture.

[bdunham7]

As far as it actually matters (which is not much), you could disassemble the meter and look at the markings on the PCB, as well as look at the general design and layout of the internal components and any markings on the inside of the case. If an OEM is involved, then they may leave some of their signatures behind during manufacture.

Perhaps, but there are different levels of OEMing.  One one hand you may have a company that says to another "we like your product, put our name on it and change the holster to green and we'll retail it".  On the other, you may have one that says "here are the design files, can you make it for us exactly as we specify?".  So Brymen and Greenlee have one relationship, Apple and Foxconn have another.  What Brymen and Fluke have, IDK.  I can't find financial information for Brymen, so I've no idea how big a player they actually are, nor who has invested in them. 

[mwb1100]

I don't know if anyone cares, but here are my notes on some of Brymen's OEM models for Greenlee and Amprobe.  Take with a grain of salt - there are likely errors.  In fact, if anyone has corrections or additions I'd welcome them.  Of course one of the big differences between Greenlee and Brymen (aside from Green vs Red) is the warranty: Greenlee is lifetime, Brymen is typically 1 year (maybe some are 3 years?) and from what I hear is difficult/impossible to get handled if you're in the US.

  - Greenlee DM-200A = Brymen BM251 (Greenlee has backlight)
  - Greenlee DM-210A = Brymen BM252 (Greenlee has backlight)
  - Greenlee DM-510A = Brymen BM257 (Greenlee is still 8A as of Jul 2023, so it's not a BM257s)
  - Greenlee DM-820   = Brymen BM859 (note: *not* BM859s)
  - Greenlee DM-810A = Brymen BM822s                       
  - Greenlee DM-820A = Brymen BM827s
  - Greenlee DM-830A = Brymen BM829s
  - Greenlee DML-430A= Brymen BM525s
  - Greenlee DM-860   = Brymen BM859s (Extech MM570A)
  - Greenlee DM-860A = Brymen BM869s

  - Amprobe AM-270   = Brymen BM817a (also identical to BM817s except for fuses and protection rating according to datasheet/manuals)

  - Amprobe AM-140-A = BM857a (*very* minor difference in manual range capacitance) and BM857s (except A limited to 15A on AM-140-A, 20A on BM857s), also Extech MM560A. Maybe BM857.

  - Amprobe AM-160-A = BM859CFa (*very* minor difference in manual range capacitance) also BM859s.  Also Extech MM570A and Greenlee DM860 (not Greenlee DM860A).  Maybe BM859.

  - Amprobe PM55A    = Brymen BM27s

I should also add that the Flir DM64 and DM65 are OEM equivalents of the Brymen DM235 (it seems that the DM64 and DM65 are themselves identical except that the DM65 is packaged with slip-on alligator clips!).  Flir's US website is still selling the DM64 for $50 (only shipping to the USA as far as I know).  Since the last time I looked at Flir's website the number of multimeters has been reduced significantly.  Don't know if that's a temporary thing or the company shifting focus?

[J-R]

My point of pointing out the Fluke 373 "Assembled in China" was that those weren't made in Taiwan, which was previously presented as proof that they were made by Brymen.  Just showing a box label is also not such proof.

So far we've had blatantly obvious proof that Brymen makes such and such products for another company, but proof for Brymen making things for Fluke is not at the same level.

[bdunham7]

My point of pointing out the Fluke 373 "Assembled in China" was that those weren't made in Taiwan, which was previously presented as proof that they were made by Brymen.  Just showing a box label is also not such proof.

What level of proof you choose to accept is up to you.  However, as a geopolitical but topically relevant question, if Brymen assembled the product at their plant in Taipei but shipped some or all of them to Shenzhen (for example)either to be sold in mainland China or to be repackaged and further exported, how would you expect them to be labeled?

[EEVblog]

My point of pointing out the Fluke 373 "Assembled in China" was that those weren't made in Taiwan, which was previously presented as proof that they were made by Brymen.  Just showing a box label is also not such proof.
So far we've had blatantly obvious proof that Brymen makes such and such products for another company, but proof for Brymen making things for Fluke is not at the same level.

Fluke making their own products in China is not new. It started with the infamous Fluke 19 backin the late 90's as an experiment in the asia-pacific market. And now Fluke make a bunch of lower end and also Asia-specific products in China. I believe it is their own plant, or at least under contract to them. These are all designed by Fluke.
I also have seen zero evidence that Bryman make anything for Fluke.
And AFAIK Brymen do not make anything in China, they are all made in Taiwan.
But yes, some Amprobes are Brymen designs.

I think what's most likely here is that Fluke have independent Chinese and Tawainese assembly houses. After all, if you are designing the meter yourself as Fluke do, then there is no reason to get an established DMM design house to make it for you, can you can use any assembly house. The benefit of going to Brymen is that they have a ready designed and tested product for you.
But maybe Brymen do make it because they already have a relationship through Amprobe?
But a 373 teardown is here. Fluke branded PCB, and looks very Flukey to me. The input ceramic resistor appears to be a Fluke. So appears to be a complete Fluke in-house design.

[bdunham7]

I also have seen zero evidence that Bryman make anything for Fluke.

Brymen just handles the printing, boxing and shipping for them?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/dead-brymen-bm869s/msg3606703/#msg3606703

And AFAIK Brymen do not make anything in China, they are all made in Taiwan.
I think what's most likely here is that Fluke have independent Chinese and Tawainese assembly houses. After all, if you are designing the meter yourself as Fluke do, then there is no reason to get an established DMM design house to make it for you, can you can use any assembly house. The benefit of going to Brymen is that they have a ready designed and tested product for you.

From the website brymen.eu:

 "With headquarters located in Taiwan, BRYMEN has subsidiaries in China, America, Japan, Korea and Malaysia; its products are sold to more than 80 countries worldwide."

IDK what that means, but perhaps we don't know all the details behind the Fluke/Brymen interaction.  Perhaps they have branched out a bit into custom assembly.  Using Brymen would have at least a small advantage in that they are already familiar with the build, testing and quality control of test equipment.  AFAIK, Brymen is a privately owned company and finding internal information is impossible, at least for me.  Maybe you can go visit them and go rogue on special mission. 

[EEVblog]

I also have seen zero evidence that Bryman make anything for Fluke.

Brymen just handles the printing, boxing and shipping for them?

Maybe. But as I said, design looks to be 100% Fluke.

And what is a 14+ and 15?

[bdunham7]

Maybe. But as I said, design looks to be 100% Fluke.

And what is a 14+ and 15?

Absolutely 100% Fluke design and I'd be pretty shocked if it weren't.  This works for both parties--if Brymen is contract-locked to someone like Greenlee for Brymen models, presumably that wouldn't apply to a Fluke-designed and exclusive model.

The 14+ and other designations are Amprobe Current Clamp models that don't match any current Brymen models that I could see. 

https://www.amprobe.com/product/acd-14-plus/

[Neutrion]

Has anyone dug into why their custom silicon suffers these failures? Firmware corruption (I feel if it were this there'd be a lot more cases)? Ionic contamination of the die? Contamination or damage of the die during manufacture? Charge carrier migration or accumulation? It might be nice to have a failed one decapped/X-rayed, to see if there's anything obvious.

We don't know.
BTW, the Brymen processor is not custom, it's a known brand. I'm under NDA so I can't tell you which one.

That just makes me want to see one decapped even more, to search for clues!   

But was it the main processor which was failing or the frontend? As far as guessing went, the frontend was supposedly the _Hycon HY3131 or some close modification of it.

I was also mentionig it a few months ago, that it would be unique to see some troubleshooting within a microchip if Dave could arrange it with some labs.
Any clue or guess what chip  technology (nm size) these Hycon chips use? 

And although off here but is there any statistics anywhere aviable about reliability of microcontrollers? Regarding to manufacturers, nod sizes, etc?

[EEVblog]

Has anyone dug into why their custom silicon suffers these failures? Firmware corruption (I feel if it were this there'd be a lot more cases)? Ionic contamination of the die? Contamination or damage of the die during manufacture? Charge carrier migration or accumulation? It might be nice to have a failed one decapped/X-rayed, to see if there's anything obvious.

We don't know.
BTW, the Brymen processor is not custom, it's a known brand. I'm under NDA so I can't tell you which one.

That just makes me want to see one decapped even more, to search for clues!   

But was it the main processor which was failing or the frontend?

IIRC Brymen said it was the processor.

[AVGresponding]

Has anyone dug into why their custom silicon suffers these failures? Firmware corruption (I feel if it were this there'd be a lot more cases)? Ionic contamination of the die? Contamination or damage of the die during manufacture? Charge carrier migration or accumulation? It might be nice to have a failed one decapped/X-rayed, to see if there's anything obvious.

We don't know.
BTW, the Brymen processor is not custom, it's a known brand. I'm under NDA so I can't tell you which one.

That just makes me want to see one decapped even more, to search for clues!   

But was it the main processor which was failing or the frontend? As far as guessing went, the frontend was supposedly the _Hycon HY3131 or some close modification of it.

I was also mentionig it a few months ago, that it would be unique to see some troubleshooting within a microchip if Dave could arrange it with some labs.
Any clue or guess what chip  technology (nm size) these Hycon chips use? 

And although off here but is there any statistics anywhere aviable about reliability of microcontrollers? Regarding to manufacturers, nod sizes, etc?

I'd imagine Dave's NDA would prevent that; Brymen would probably consider such activities a violation of the spirit of it, even if not the exact words.

[Neutrion]

Maybe it is not covering the BM235.  However, it has another processor....

By the way, new interesting feature of the BM789: In any dc only measuring mode, be it current or voltage, if I turn on the record mode, the display update rate jums up to 9-10/second.
Do other Brymens do this?  Yet another Fluke 87V busting feature!    

[EEVblog]

I'd imagine Dave's NDA would prevent that; Brymen would probably consider such activities a violation of the spirit of it, even if not the exact words.

There was a specific NDA for getting the programmer. So I'm not allowed to say processor or programmer is used.
But I don't have a schematic or any other design info.

[mwb1100]

By the way, new interesting feature of the BM789: In any dc only measuring mode, be it current or voltage, if I turn on the record mode, the display update rate jums up to 9-10/second.
Do other Brymens do this?  Yet another Fluke 87V busting feature!

This is documented in the manual.

The following Brymen meters have 20/second update in REC (aka MAX/MIN) mode (not a comprehensive list):

  - BM257s
  - BM525s
  - BM817s (Amprobe AM-270)

The 20/second display update isn't really useful as far as the display goes - if the numbers are changing fast, they're just a blur - better to look at the bargraph.  Of course, the important thing is it helps ensure that the meter will catch very short MAX & MIN durations.

Some that do not have faster update in REC mode:

  - BM235
  - BM857s (Amprobe AM-140-A)

As far as busting the 87V, I'd say "not so fast"!  The 87V's default MIN/MAX record rate is 100ms (10/second), just like the BM789.  It's just that it doesn't update the digital display any faster (the min/max is taken from the bargraph reading).

Also, the Fluke 87V and many of the Brymens support a "Peak" or "Crest" mode where the min/max is captured for very short transients (0.25ms for the 87V and 0.25ms-5ms for the Brymens depending on the model).  In this mode the display doesn't update continuously - it shows the MAX or MIN value (whichever you select)