Author Topic: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around  (Read 104979 times)

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Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #450 on: June 15, 2017, 09:34:59 am »
I did fall for this a few weeks ago as well and bought a cheap U1177A and was surprised my iPad could not see it.

Now I have a few U1117A and they work perfectly alright. It is really nice to have up to three DMM hooked up via BT to the iPad and have one additional number as math, based on measurements of the three DMM.

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline colorado.rob

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #451 on: June 15, 2017, 11:13:52 am »
How odd, given that iOS has had robust Bluetooth support for a long time, and that both the 1177A and 1117A use the same Bluetooth profile. (It's not that the 1177A uses a weird Bluetooth type, either, it's just BT 2.1.)
What are you smoking? iOS has intentionally crippled BT support.  It does not support SPP without using Apple's MFI chip (the Apple tax chip).
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #452 on: June 15, 2017, 11:44:42 am »
How odd, given that iOS has had robust Bluetooth support for a long time, and that both the 1177A and 1117A use the same Bluetooth profile. (It's not that the 1177A uses a weird Bluetooth type, either, it's just BT 2.1.)
What are you smoking? iOS has intentionally crippled BT support.  It does not support SPP without using Apple's MFI chip (the Apple tax chip).
Ok, let's try this using civilized language:

Actually, iOS only supports SPP as part of the MFI program, requiring the addition of an MFI chip from Apple
Oh, I didn't know that. That's lame.

When I said "robust", I was thinking that it's been reliable (like Mac OS X's BT support, and unlike Windows historically). I thought apps could use profiles beyond the ones iOS supports natively, didn't realize that wasn't the case.
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #453 on: June 15, 2017, 01:15:33 pm »
A-Ha! Now I understand why the 1117A BT module is so expensive when compared to the older1177A that I have. I paid around £35 for mine and do not need iOS support. I own many Android phones and tablets for use in the lab as 'hosts' only. They can be be bought on eBay so cheaply that it makes sense for me to buy a used Android tablet for use with the 1177A. Still cheaper than buying a 1117A and it does not tie up my iPad.

So Apple have effectively locked down their BT like they did their USB accessories.... adding significant additional cost to any product that supports iOS. I did not need a reason to avoid iOS products in the lab, but that sure is a big one for me. I buy great quality used Android phones and tablets for around £30 in the UK. Virtually a disposable host for my FLIR One G2 thermal cameras, Smart universal battery chargers and now my Keysight multimeter :)

I say, buy a cheap 1177A and a cheap used Android device and enjoy both the saving and the added freedom of not needing to use your iOS device for lab work :) Yes I know the 1117A has a longer range...... but my lab is not that large and with distance  the reliability of connection can reduce anyway.

Fraser
« Last Edit: June 15, 2017, 02:28:45 pm by Fraser »
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #454 on: June 15, 2017, 01:26:01 pm »
As best I can tell, the MFI chips cost about a dollar, so it's not as though its material cost is responsible for the cost differential.
 

Offline colorado.rob

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #455 on: June 15, 2017, 02:35:08 pm »
As best I can tell, the MFI chips cost about a dollar, so it's not as though its material cost is responsible for the cost differential.
You are just speculating.

The cost of the chips varies greatly depending on volume -- and many other factors.  The Apple MFI chip cost is not the only material cost associated with MFI support.  I'm not sure what your background is, but I can assure you that there are significant additional costs to product development beyond the chip cost.  I could go into details, but this is not the place for it.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #456 on: June 15, 2017, 05:24:40 pm »
As best I can tell, the MFI chips cost about a dollar, so it's not as though its material cost is responsible for the cost differential.
You are just speculating.

The cost of the chips varies greatly depending on volume -- and many other factors.  The Apple MFI chip cost is not the only material cost associated with MFI support.  I'm not sure what your background is, but I can assure you that there are significant additional costs to product development beyond the chip cost.  I could go into details, but this is not the place for it.
Actually I wasn't speculating as such, I was going by the (admittedly unreliable) numbers I found in discussions about it when I was googling the topic.

As for the cost of the chip not being the only factor, that's why I expressly stated that the material cost of the chip isn't responsible. I didn't say anything about the other costs of MFI support.
 

Offline Old Printer

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #457 on: June 15, 2017, 07:11:26 pm »
I have become a more serious electronics hobbyist of late and have been assembling a "bench". It would not qualify as a lab by any means. I have TEK 475 & 2225 scopes that both work well, but neither one has been calibrated since the 90's. I have a low cost frequency counter and wave generator. My main "meter" is a yellow RadioShack 2200087 46 range RMS handheld that is probably 20 years old and went for about $65 new. It has the RS232 PC interface if I could find a computer with a 232 port :) My goal or interest is just to learn the fundamentals of analog and digital electronics and build some projects like a bench power supply and microprocessor related circuits and maybe some current & resistance reference type gear. I have a thing about accuracy and like my stuff to be as close to dead on as I can afford, probably over the top. I feel like my next purchase should be along the lines of an accurate DMM. A bench unit would be fine with me, but on the surface this looks like a very good deal with the exception of a few lately showing up a bit off. Not having anyway to check it, I am not sure I would trust it without having it calibrated or at least checked by someone with some known good equipment. I don't know anyone like that so I would have to pay someone to do it, or am I miss reading some of the more recent posts. Thanks for taking the time to read this. Dave
 

Offline colorado.rob

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #458 on: June 15, 2017, 07:54:05 pm »
Actually I wasn't speculating as such, I was going by the (admittedly unreliable) numbers I found in discussions about it when I was googling the topic.

As for the cost of the chip not being the only factor, that's why I expressly stated that the material cost of the chip isn't responsible. I didn't say anything about the other costs of MFI support.
Not speculating but presenting "facts" based on unreliable data found on the interwebs, by someone with no clue how Apple's MFI program works?   :bullshit:

I'll leave this here: http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/02/07/apple-lowers-mfi-lightening-licensing-fees-paving-way-for-more-affordable-ios-accessories-

Up until a few years ago, the price was an order of magnitude more that what you quote.  It is certainly a heftier chunk than you seem to want others to believe.  Why?
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #459 on: June 15, 2017, 08:22:44 pm »
Not speculating but presenting "facts" based on unreliable data found on the interwebs, by someone with no clue how Apple's MFI program works?   :bullshit:

I'll leave this here: http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/02/07/apple-lowers-mfi-lightening-licensing-fees-paving-way-for-more-affordable-ios-accessories-

Up until a few years ago, the price was an order of magnitude more that what you quote.  It is certainly a heftier chunk than you seem to want others to believe.  Why?

What does this have to do with the Keysight Bluetooth Adapter?
Does Keysight have to pay a license fee to Apple for each U1117A adapter they sell in order to have the iPad be able to link to the adapter?

There are 3 kinds of people in this world, those who can count and those who can not.
 

Offline colorado.rob

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #460 on: June 15, 2017, 10:18:45 pm »
What does this have to do with the Keysight Bluetooth Adapter?
Does Keysight have to pay a license fee to Apple for each U1117A adapter they sell in order to have the iPad be able to link to the adapter?
Yes they do.
 

Offline hendorog

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #461 on: June 15, 2017, 10:34:20 pm »
Actually I wasn't speculating as such, I was going by the (admittedly unreliable) numbers I found in discussions about it when I was googling the topic.

As for the cost of the chip not being the only factor, that's why I expressly stated that the material cost of the chip isn't responsible. I didn't say anything about the other costs of MFI support.
Not speculating but presenting "facts" based on unreliable data found on the interwebs, by someone with no clue how Apple's MFI program works?   :bullshit:

I'll leave this here: http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/02/07/apple-lowers-mfi-lightening-licensing-fees-paving-way-for-more-affordable-ios-accessories-

Up until a few years ago, the price was an order of magnitude more that what you quote.  It is certainly a heftier chunk than you seem to want others to believe.  Why?

Was this really presented as a "fact"?
Quote
"As best I can tell, the MFI chips cost about a dollar"

 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #462 on: June 15, 2017, 11:15:25 pm »
Actually I wasn't speculating as such, I was going by the (admittedly unreliable) numbers I found in discussions about it when I was googling the topic.

As for the cost of the chip not being the only factor, that's why I expressly stated that the material cost of the chip isn't responsible. I didn't say anything about the other costs of MFI support.
Not speculating but presenting "facts" based on unreliable data found on the interwebs, by someone with no clue how Apple's MFI program works?   :bullshit:

I'll leave this here: http://appleinsider.com/articles/14/02/07/apple-lowers-mfi-lightening-licensing-fees-paving-way-for-more-affordable-ios-accessories-

Up until a few years ago, the price was an order of magnitude more that what you quote.  It is certainly a heftier chunk than you seem to want others to believe.  Why?
At no point did I claim or pretend to be an authority. Every claim I made was couched in weasel words, rather deliberately, because I am not an authority on this. Never claimed I was, never claimed they were facts. Get off your high horse. Isn't Colorado a state with medical weed? Might wanna take some, calm your nerves a bit...

What does this have to do with the Keysight Bluetooth Adapter?
Does Keysight have to pay a license fee to Apple for each U1117A adapter they sell in order to have the iPad be able to link to the adapter?
It appears so. Probably a couple of dollars per unit. (DISCLAIMER FOR COLORADO.ROB THAT I DON'T KNOW THIS FOR 100% FACT. DON'T TAKE THIS AS FACT. JUST GOING BY ESTIMATES FROM INTERWEBS. NOT GOSPEL. NO WARRANTIES, EXPRESS OR IMPLIED. 'N STUFF.)

 
Was this really presented as a "fact"?
Quote
"As best I can tell, the MFI chips cost about a dollar"
Thank you.
 

Offline colorado.rob

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #463 on: June 16, 2017, 01:12:51 am »
:horse:

Doesn't really matter.  iOS users will pay.
 \$\Omega\$
 

Offline shteii01

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #464 on: June 16, 2017, 01:27:32 am »
I say, buy a cheap 1177A and a cheap used Android device and enjoy both the saving and the added freedom of not needing to use your iOS device for lab work :) Yes I know the 1117A has a longer range...... but my lab is not that large and with distance  the reliability of connection can reduce anyway.

Fraser
I think I will do exactly that.  Any suggestions on the tablet? 
 

Online bitseeker

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #465 on: June 16, 2017, 02:15:36 am »
As discussed earlier, the current listings have both the 1252A and 1252B. Looking at the posted datasheets the only real difference for the A from the B, other than extra frequency support in the high AC ranges, seems to be the higher input impedance at low voltages.

Yep, that's about the gist of it. I haven't looked to see if there are any design issues as a consequence of the differences between the A and B.

Quote
1) are there any practical issues that would arise from the impedance difference? I'll admit that I'm not too knowledgeable about what that means for the DMM's capabilities.

The higher impedance is useful if you'll be measuring circuits that have high impedances. You want the meter's impedance to be much higher than the things you're measuring in order to minimize the meter's effect on the circuit. In general, though, the lower impedance of the B should not be a problem. It's still plenty high. The higher impedance of the A might make it more sensitive to noise, but I haven't heard of any complaints. Some bench multimeters have even higher input impedance.

Quote
2) is there anything else I'm missing? If the minor datasheet differences aren't important, it looks like the A might be a good choice -- seems to come with a few extras and despite it's being older I'm getting the impression that the cal dates on the B's are around the same time by now.

I haven't heard anything specifically about the A models from nmori (no purchases mentioned here yet), so I don't know how they compare to his B models. I quite like the color of the A models, though I got a B one before the A's showed up.

Quote
Also despite rereading the last few pages I'm having trouble telling whether the current batch of B's is having problems or not (and who knows about the A's). I see that the seller is going to stand behind the products but I'd like to avoid any defect problems if possible. Should I be worried about anything here?

It seems a couple of units had issues and are being taken care of by the seller. There's no way to know in advance, apart from opening and testing, if a unit might have a defect. For the bargain price on new-old-stock, you take some risk, but it's not such a big deal since the seller is responding to any issues. Many of us bought them.

Quote
Finally, (hope I'm not asking too many questions here) does the older cal date have any practical consequences for a hobbyist use-case?

Unless you need to measure something and know for sure that it is X, not X+0.001 nor X-0.001, for example, there's no practical consequence for hobby use if the meter has drifted a little.

For most electronics, knowing that a value is in the right ballpark is often sufficient. Whether your 5V power rail measures 4.9, 5.0, or 5.1 volts usually won't have an adverse effect on your circuit. If your project requires a meter that is calibrated, you'll know it because you designed it that way, it's documented with such requirements, or you have to adhere to some standards that require it.

Quote
I like the high count and accuracy figures for these meters, but if they've drifted too far out of spec that's somewhat moot (and I don't have the equipment to do a nice calibration myself).

Being out of spec doesn't render useless the meter's high count and resolution. You'll still be able to maintain more decimal places at higher measurements than with a lower-count meter. You'll also still be able to detect smaller changes in values (i.e., the difference between two readings) than with meters that have lower resolution. What you lose with significant drift is accuracy, i.e., the ability to know the absolute value of a measurement relative to a known standard.

Quote
It sounds like most people have been getting good results but the cal dates appear to be sliding backwards as the seller goes through stock.

Yes, that does seem to be the case.
I TEA.
 
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Online bitseeker

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #466 on: June 16, 2017, 02:20:23 am »
My goal or interest is just to learn the fundamentals of analog and digital electronics and build some projects like a bench power supply and microprocessor related circuits and maybe some current & resistance reference type gear. I have a thing about accuracy and like my stuff to be as close to dead on as I can afford, probably over the top. I feel like my next purchase should be along the lines of an accurate DMM. A bench unit would be fine with me, but on the surface this looks like a very good deal with the exception of a few lately showing up a bit off. Not having anyway to check it, I am not sure I would trust it without having it calibrated or at least checked by someone with some known good equipment. I don't know anyone like that so I would have to pay someone to do it, or am I miss reading some of the more recent posts. Thanks for taking the time to read this. Dave

Welcome to the forum, Old Printer. See my reply to BMCha, above, which covers some of the things you're asking, especially with regard to accuracy, calibration, and drift.

Bottom line: If you want/need high accuracy, then regardless which meter you buy, have it calibrated and adjusted to satisfy your requirements. For most uses, the expense is not necessary.
I TEA.
 

Offline colorado.rob

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #467 on: June 16, 2017, 05:07:07 pm »
Quote from:  bitseeker
I haven't heard anything specifically about the A models from nmori (no purchases mentioned here yet), so I don't know how they compare to his B models. I quite like the color of the A models, though I got a B one before the A's showed up.
I guess I'm the only one here to have taken the plunge on the A model.  It should be arriving today or tomorrow.  I'll give a rundown on what's in the box and how old the cal certs are.

I like the color of the U1253A's he's selling (darker blue) better than the light blue of the U1252A but the price is higher, the battery life is abysmal if the handheld meter spreadsheet is to be believed, and they are reportedly impossible to read outdoors.

One thing to note about nmori is that he seems to only ship midweek, so if you buy over the weekend, expect a few days delay in shipment.  He still hasn't provided a tracking number for the last order.  He is quick to follow up on messages, however he did not follow through on his promise to post the tracking number.

The U1252B I received was musty-smelling and 6 years new-old stock.  The meter is fine.  The battery is holding its charge.  And rubbing the meter down with some isopropyl alcohol took care of the musty smell.
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #468 on: June 16, 2017, 05:35:06 pm »
I guess I'm the only one here to have taken the plunge on the A model.  It should be arriving today or tomorrow.  I'll give a rundown on what's in the box and how old the cal certs are.

I like the color of the U1253A's he's selling (darker blue) better than the light blue of the U1252A but the price is higher, the battery life is abysmal if the handheld meter spreadsheet is to be believed, and they are reportedly impossible to read outdoors.
I would have, had I known he had other models beyond the '52B available. (I got two of them, both ended up being fairly recent stock.) The A's come with accessories I might have liked, and I like the blue a lot better than the orange. ::shrug:: (I suppose that the orange backlight is easier to read than blue, but the OLED woulda been nice.)

Still kicking myself for not pouncing 2 years ago when Distrelec was selling off the U1273AX (the extended temp OLED model) for less than $500...  |O
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #469 on: June 16, 2017, 07:17:47 pm »

Still kicking myself for not pouncing 2 years ago when Distrelec was selling off the U1273AX (the extended temp OLED model) for less than $500...  |O
The U1273AX are still sold for around $500 to $ 550
But do you really need the - 40°C to + 55°C temperature range?
The U1273A is a hundred $ cheaper and works really well in the lab under normal temperature condition.
A really good alternative for the U1252B, once the ebay seller runs out.


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Offline Fraser

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #470 on: June 16, 2017, 07:51:27 pm »
On the OLED model, I liked OLED until I personally experienced OLED failure on several pieces of expensive equipment. The OEM's for the equipment stated that OLED had a very limited life and the issue was causing them a lot of warranty claims and concern. LCD had not caused such issues for them.

If a meter effectively has a 'ticking' OLED 'End of Life' clock in it, I am not interested in owning it. I like equipment to have longevity. For anyone wondering, my OLED display failures were on White/Blue displays of LigiCube forensic hard disk copiers. The displays just faded until they were totally dark.

I understand that OLED displays contain organic components in their construction. I do not know if the ageing issue continues whether the display is on or off. If it is age related rather than use, New Old Stock units could already be well on the way to OLED display failure.

Am I right in thinking that Keysight effectively abandoned support for the OLED equipped meters ? Could this be because of the OLED issue ?

Fraser
« Last Edit: June 16, 2017, 07:54:27 pm by Fraser »
 

Offline HighVoltage

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #471 on: June 16, 2017, 09:08:49 pm »
I have several OLED display instruments and as far as I can tell, none of them have faded so far over several years.
On the other hand many of my instruments with VFD have gone darker really quickly.

I think the only Keysight bench top DMM with OLED was the 34450A and it is still available new.
And the handheld DMM U1253B, U1273A are still available.
Which OLED instrument has been abandoned?

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Offline gnavigator1007

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #472 on: June 16, 2017, 09:34:38 pm »
Just won a u1273 yesterday from ebay. Display looked good in the pics, but we'll see.  Couldn't stop myself there, so I ended up also ordering one of the u1252a's within an hour from nmori. 
 

Offline Fraser

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #473 on: June 16, 2017, 09:49:31 pm »
High-Voltage,

It was a previous thread that I saw that made me think Keysight were abandoning the U1253......

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/replacing-oled-screen-on-an-agilent-u1253a-multimeter/msg483912/#msg483912

Post number 4 to be specific. I see that this applied to the U1253A though and the U1253B remains current. My mistake.

Fraser
 

Online bitseeker

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Re: Bunch of keysight U1252B meters around
« Reply #474 on: June 17, 2017, 02:47:24 am »
I understand that OLED displays contain organic components in their construction. I do not know if the ageing issue continues whether the display is on or off. If it is age related rather than use, New Old Stock units could already be well on the way to OLED display failure.

As far as I know, OLEDs age when power is applied to them and the blue LEDs age faster than red or green, resulting in color shifting, in addition to loss of brightness, over time.

I haven't heard anything about their off-state longevity. However, I have a Samsung Galaxy S phone with an AMOLED display from 2010 that still looks great, despite its age, because it has low on-time.
I TEA.
 
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