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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: matthuszagh on December 04, 2020, 06:55:39 pm

Title: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: matthuszagh on December 04, 2020, 06:55:39 pm
I'm considering buying a tek 2465B on ebay. If I'm being honest with myself, the reason is mostly aesthetic - I like the look of these scopes and appreciate the extensive service manual. I have a tek TDS7104 (1GHz, 10GS/s) and can't think of any metric in which the 2465B will perform better than my newer tek DPO (but maybe there is?). For use cases in which I don't need the full performance of the DPO I see myself using the 2465B instead. But maybe I'm fooling myself.

For people that own both an analog scope (preferably the 2465B) and a newer, higher-performance digital scope, do you find that you still frequently use the analog scope? Or, do these sit on the shelf and collect dust? Are there any applications for which you particularly prefer the analog scope?
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: Kibabalu on December 04, 2020, 07:03:11 pm
I have a Tek 2465B on my desk, next to a Keysight DSO-X 2024A and a Tek TDS3054. I'm using the 2465 quite often. It is my beauty. Using it is fun, watching at it is fun, touching it is fun ;-)

Go for it!
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: JamesLynton on December 04, 2020, 07:11:01 pm
Curiously enough I just sold my old 2445a (150mhz) scope after finally replacing it with a DSO - (Siglent sds1104x-e (hacked to 200MHz 1204 spec)).
I found myself needing proper signal capture and analysis far more these days. So far in going that route, I cant find anything that the analogue scope could do, which it cant - screen persistence (the one blatantly useful thing about analogues) & good prices for good specs/features is what finally made me switch and ditch entirely.

Also, I found the noise floor performance of the budget priced Siglent to be quite superior to that of the 1980's Tek scope.. so theres that too. However, I cant comment on the 2465 specifically.


Gotta admit though, they are nice to look at, though had to snap myself out of that on multiple fronts as I acquired far too much stuff over the years, and I now much prefer running my operation as a tight ship with minimal duplication, keeping setups/work spaces as compact as possible.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: bdunham7 on December 04, 2020, 07:30:29 pm
For people that own both an analog scope (preferably the 2465B) and a newer, higher-performance digital scope, do you find that you still frequently use the analog scope? Or, do these sit on the shelf and collect dust? Are there any applications for which you particularly prefer the analog scope?

I own a 2465B (and others) that I keep under my bench, and a somewhat lower performance DSO (several actually). I find myself dragging the 2465B out less and less these days, and when I do I sometimes just grab the 2445 next to it because for what I might need it is just as good.  If I upgraded to a better DSO that had 50R inputs and 500MHz bandwidth or more, I probably would go a long time before dragging out CRO for something.  If I were you I would skip the expensive and complex 2465B and opt for a cheaper 2445 (which is a very nice scope, b/t/w) or even a 22XX series.  That's if you need an analog CRO at all.

It depends on your use case.  If you have been repairing FM tuners for 40 years with a CRO and have never used a DSO, then the transition to digital might be a challenge.  If you work on random stuff like I do, once you get good at using advanced triggering, color grading and memory functions, just to name a few, CROs will begin to seem to be just a waste of space.  That's why I only have about a half-dozen of them.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: tautech on December 04, 2020, 07:32:23 pm
Curiously enough I just sold my old 2445a (150mhz) scope after finally replacing it with a DSO - (Siglent sds1104x-e (hacked to 200MHz 1204 spec)).
I found myself needing proper signal capture and analysis far more these days. So far in going that route, I cant find anything that the analogue scope could do, which it cant - screen persistence (the one blatantly useful thing about analogues) & good prices for good specs/features is what finally made me switch and ditch entirely.

Also, I found the noise floor performance of the budget priced Siglent to be quite superior to that of the 1980's Tek scope.. so theres that too. However, I cant comment on the 2465 specifically.


Gotta admit though, they are nice to look at, though had to snap myself out of that on multiple fronts as I acquired far too much stuff over the years, and I now much prefer running my operation as a tight ship with minimal duplication, keeping setups/work spaces as compact as possible.
After owning a few CRO's over the years before getting into DSO's some 10 years back and then finding BravoV's fine 2465B thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-2465b-oscilloscope-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-2465b-oscilloscope-teardown/)
Then wanting one however after studying the trials and tribulations owners of these great old instruments go through and certainly having the skill and tools to keep one operative I decided yeah...Nah, my time fixing old CRO's is well and truly done when you can get better capability from a $620 SDS2202X-E hacked to the 350 MHz SDS2352X-E.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: Johnny10 on December 04, 2020, 07:39:35 pm
I have both a TDS7104 and a Tek2465A.
After first getting the 7104, I still used the 2465A though more often for Audio and quickly checking clock presence on repairs.

Now, a couple of years later, I don't know where I put the 2465A ?

It does have higher input voltage limit that 7104.

The 7104 takes a long time to Power on
the 2465 just needs CRO tube to warm... much quicker.

I think you will tire of manipulating cursors to retrieve your common place measurements.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: tggzzz on December 04, 2020, 08:05:01 pm
For people that own both an analog scope (preferably the 2465B) and a newer, higher-performance digital scope, do you find that you still frequently use the analog scope? Or, do these sit on the shelf and collect dust? Are there any applications for which you particularly prefer the analog scope?

I own a 2465B (and others) that I keep under my bench, and a somewhat lower performance DSO (several actually). I find myself dragging the 2465B out less and less these days, and when I do I sometimes just grab the 2445 next to it because for what I might need it is just as good.  If I upgraded to a better DSO that had 50R inputs and 500MHz bandwidth or more, I probably would go a long time before dragging out CRO for something.  If I were you I would skip the expensive and complex 2465B and opt for a cheaper 2445 (which is a very nice scope, b/t/w) or even a 22XX series.  That's if you need an analog CRO at all.

It depends on your use case.  If you have been repairing FM tuners for 40 years with a CRO and have never used a DSO, then the transition to digital might be a challenge.  If you work on random stuff like I do, once you get good at using advanced triggering, color grading and memory functions, just to name a few, CROs will begin to seem to be just a waste of space.  That's why I only have about a half-dozen of them.

I agree about 2465 vs 2465b. I've had a 2445b and have a 2465.I kept the 2465 :)

The 2465 has an eeprom for calibration data that doesn't need to be battery backed. This batteries are well beyond their design life, and need replacing.

If you are going to buy a 24x5x then buy a working example, preferably one that has had its RIFA caps replaced.

2465s are fine scopes; the only advantage the 485 has is a proper 50ohm input, not 50ohm//20pF.

The OP might consider adding a flag to their profile; there's a chance it might help people help them.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: nctnico on December 04, 2020, 08:08:15 pm
I'm considering buying a tek 2465B on ebay. If I'm being honest with myself, the reason is mostly aesthetic - I like the look of these scopes and appreciate the extensive service manual. I have a tek TDS7104 (1GHz, 10GS/s) and can't think of any metric in which the 2465B will perform better than my newer tek DPO (but maybe there is?). For use cases in which I don't need the full performance of the DPO I see myself using the 2465B instead. But maybe I'm fooling myself.

For people that own both an analog scope (preferably the 2465B) and a newer, higher-performance digital scope, do you find that you still frequently use the analog scope? Or, do these sit on the shelf and collect dust? Are there any applications for which you particularly prefer the analog scope?
A long time ago I owned Tektronix (the venerable 2230) and Iwatsu scopes which could do both analog and digital. I have used both mostly in digital mode. After that I have owned high frequency analog scopes as well for special jobs but even these have been replaced by several DSOs since then.

All in all: if you like a project and can buy the 2465B for US$50 then go for it. Otherwise spend your money on a DSO better suited for daily use.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: med6753 on December 04, 2020, 08:10:14 pm
Curiously enough I just sold my old 2445a (150mhz) scope after finally replacing it with a DSO - (Siglent sds1104x-e (hacked to 200MHz 1204 spec)).
I found myself needing proper signal capture and analysis far more these days. So far in going that route, I cant find anything that the analogue scope could do, which it cant - screen persistence (the one blatantly useful thing about analogues) & good prices for good specs/features is what finally made me switch and ditch entirely.

Also, I found the noise floor performance of the budget priced Siglent to be quite superior to that of the 1980's Tek scope.. so theres that too. However, I cant comment on the 2465 specifically.


Gotta admit though, they are nice to look at, though had to snap myself out of that on multiple fronts as I acquired far too much stuff over the years, and I now much prefer running my operation as a tight ship with minimal duplication, keeping setups/work spaces as compact as possible.
After owning a few CRO's over the years before getting into DSO's some 10 years back and then finding BravoV's fine 2465B thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-2465b-oscilloscope-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/tektronix-2465b-oscilloscope-teardown/)
Then wanting one however after studying the trials and tribulations owners of these great old instruments go through and certainly having the skill and tools to keep one operative I decided yeah...Nah, my time fixing old CRO's is well and truly done when you can get better capability from a $620 SDS2202X-E hacked to the 350 MHz SDS2352X-E.

What tautech said. Don't get me wrong....I love my old Tek iron and I own two 2465's (no suffix) but I would avoid a 2465B. Why? First, Dallas chip with the internal battery. A PITA to deal with and if the battery goes dead (and it will after 30 years) you lose all your cal data.
2nd, the "B" has an SMT A5 board with tantalum capacitors which leak and destroy the board. The only way I would purchase a 2465B is if it were certified to have these items fixed and it's been calibrated. But you'll pay stupid dollars for that.

The 2465A is a better choice. The A5 board is pin-thru-hole with no tantalums although I have heard that some later S/N's MIGHT be SMT. The Dallas chip in most of them is an external battery which is much easier to deal with and fix. But again, I've heard that some later S/N's might have the Dallas chip with internal battery.

If really, really want one then go with a 2465 (no suffix). Non volatile EAROM for cal data and no troublesome tantalum caps. But trouble spots with these is the a noisy cage fan motor which can be a PITA to fix. And on all three models I strongly suggest that the PSU get a total re-cap.

Read thru that thread that tautech posted to help with your decision. 
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: MarkL on December 04, 2020, 08:19:25 pm
I have a 2465 with the counter/timer/word recognizer, and a 2445A with the DVM option.

I think the Tek 24xx series are masterpieces of engineering and I enjoy learning how they work and helping others to repair them.  But in the normal course of a day, it never happens for me that one of them will do something better than my main driver DSO (MSO-X3104A).  I do mostly digital design.

The 2465B seems to be in "crazy" pricing territory lately.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: mawyatt on December 04, 2020, 09:20:36 pm
Have a couple 2465s, not B nor A for reasons mentioned. Both from eBay which required repair and also replacing the electrolytics and RIFA caps. They are wonderful instruments from the past, but as mentioned they are seeing less use now that I've purchased a good DSO. Sometimes they are useful like confirming the DSO BW "upgrade" as a sanity check.

Best,
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: JamesLynton on December 04, 2020, 11:10:15 pm
Oh, those *damned* Dallas battery backed SRAMs eh?
(God, I hate those things.. there was a time in the 90s when they still used them in some Z80 based lift controllers of all things)

Phew.
Looks like I sold that hot potato of the 2445a at the right time then <.< >.>

Fortunately for the new owner it was a MOD owned scope before it was mine, and was serviced by a calibration and repair service for MOD in the 2000's ..so based on those timings the SRAM should of been replaced at the time (it would of failed on me by now if not), so that should still have another good 20 years in it for them yet *fingers crossed*.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: BravoV on December 05, 2020, 05:57:11 am
... the reason is mostly aesthetic

This alone already answered your own question, that no one can give you the right answer as its fully subjective.

Only you can judge whether its worth $10 ? $50 ? $100 ? $500 ? ... so on ...  :-//

Owner of 2465B, 2465 and 2445, and here an eyes candy of my DSO sitting on top of my 2465B ...  :P
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/list-your-test-equipment-score-here!/?action=dlattach;attach=264393;image)
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: james_s on December 05, 2020, 06:06:52 am
They're beautiful instruments,  if I had more space I'd pick one up. Using a nice classic scope is like driving a classic car, it just feels good.

I don't mind those Dallas chips. As long as you get the data off them before they die it's not difficult to replace the battery or in some cases you can replace the chip with a newer F-RAM.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: tautech on December 05, 2020, 06:15:31 am
Owner of 2465B, 2465 and 2445, and here an eyes candy of my DSO sitting on top of my 2465B ...  :P
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/list-your-test-equipment-score-here!/?action=dlattach;attach=264393;image)
Won in Dubbies scope giveaway contest.
'Bout time you upgraded isn't it ?  :P
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: bob91343 on December 05, 2020, 06:15:42 am
Notwithstanding any of the above, I can only say that I use my Tek 465 100 MHz analog as my regular unit and go to the HP 54542A digital for corroboration or for the few times its capabilities are needed.  Even with its superior 500 MHz response, I don't need that too much.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: BravoV on December 05, 2020, 07:32:37 am
'Bout time you upgraded isn't it ?  :P

Well, was planned to, but somehow it breeded by it self.  :-DD

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds1054z-oscilloscope/?action=dlattach;attach=264395;image)
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: Kibabalu on December 05, 2020, 08:40:08 am
even my cat Rudolf likes the 2465B

He always sleeps in front of it. He seems to have a high level of EMC immunity ;-)
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: Keith956 on December 05, 2020, 01:23:32 pm
I've a Tek 456B of 1981 vintage that I acquired in 1995. It works well and for a long time was my daily scope, until I got an RTM3000. Which can do wonderful things, but I still find myself using the Tek scope every few days, why? Well there are no menus to search around for if you just want to check the signal in say an audio amp. Also it works well in XY mode (and has Z intensity modulation) which is good for a homemade curve tracer.

Lastly, these things last, will the cheap Chinese scopes last as long?
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: jonpaul on December 05, 2020, 06:55:10 pm
Been Tektronix user since 1967 and scopes 454, 485, 465, 465B, 475.

Since early 90s had 2465, 2465A and nos 2465B, 2467B.

In digital worked with Yokogawa in 1990s so had DL1540, 1740, DL7440.

Use the TEK 2465B for most analog troubleshooting and maintenance, the Yokogawa scopes have many fine averaging and calculating functions incl FFT.

The TEK are easy to maintain, need recapping and new NVRAM after many years, but parts and full serve]ice manuals and CAL procedures and CAL gear still available.

On tekScopes.groups.io many deep users, fixers and ex TEK folks who can give you a lot more info.

You could get a good 2456B for perhaps $300-600 on epay.

Avoid the older serial numbers and 2465 or 2465A versions, the B is the best.

LAST CRT scopes from TEK!

Bon chance,

Jon

Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: 0culus on December 05, 2020, 10:46:12 pm
I'm considering buying a tek 2465B on ebay. If I'm being honest with myself, the reason is mostly aesthetic - I like the look of these scopes and appreciate the extensive service manual. I have a tek TDS7104 (1GHz, 10GS/s) and can't think of any metric in which the 2465B will perform better than my newer tek DPO (but maybe there is?). For use cases in which I don't need the full performance of the DPO I see myself using the 2465B instead. But maybe I'm fooling myself.

For people that own both an analog scope (preferably the 2465B) and a newer, higher-performance digital scope, do you find that you still frequently use the analog scope? Or, do these sit on the shelf and collect dust? Are there any applications for which you particularly prefer the analog scope?

Since you already have the DPO, I'd say bypass the 2465B. I have one. I don't use it that much since I have other CROs now, and I'll explain why. The 2465 series is microprocessor controlled and not only are there a number of pitfalls with that such as the Dallas NVRAMs, the control latency is pretty bad. I much prefer the immediate control response of an actual analog scope (or a Megazoom equipped HP/Agilent/Keysight rig). If you want to have just a general purpose scope but still enjoy that old timey Tek goodness, have a look at the 465 series. Those were real workhorses and all their problems can be solved with a soldering iron (mainly, tantalum caps). [edit] I will say that there are times when having a less wideband oscilloscope available is very useful to have.

Also be warned that there is a certain seller on ebay whose name rhymes with "enty our ixty ive" who is known for selling fake 2465Bs that are really rebadged 2445Bs.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: Tom45 on December 06, 2020, 05:36:36 pm
Digital scopes, at least the ones I've tried, generally suck at X-Y displays. Not so for analog scopes.

Most Tek analog scopes can trigger on, and display, two or more signals that have different frequencies. This is because one of the trigger modes is to trigger on whichever channel is being displayed with the current sweep in vertical Alt sweep mode. The trigger source switch is set to Vert mode rather than channels 1 through 4. DSOs can only trigger on one channel at a time.

A modulated signal such as Dave's test signal of 1 MHz modulated 100% by 1 KHz is difficult to impossible to get a stable display on the DSOs I've tried. Even a Keysight demo video on their web site extolling the greatness of one of their new scopes showed a modulated signal jumping around. All of my Tek analog scopes can easily be adjusted for a stable display.

I concur with the suggestion of a 2465 that doesn't have a battery backed ram. That's what I have on my bench.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: nctnico on December 07, 2020, 12:35:12 am
Most Tek analog scopes can trigger on, and display, two or more signals that have different frequencies. This is because one of the trigger modes is to trigger on whichever channel is being displayed with the current sweep in vertical Alt sweep mode. The trigger source switch is set to Vert mode rather than channels 1 through 4. DSOs can only trigger on one channel at a time.
That is not entirely true. There are DSOs out there (GW Instek for example) which allow triggering on seperate channels to get unrelated signals stable on the same screen.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: Stray Electron on December 07, 2020, 01:11:00 am
  Buying a tek 2465B worth it?


  Absolutely not IMO.  First, there's a very good chance of the CRT being damaged in shipping. Second, unless you have a way of checking it out in advance, there's a good chance that it has issues. Tektronix makes GOOD scopes but they are widely known to developing problems when they get older.  Third, The Digital scopes are so good now that I GAVE away all of my analog scopes including a 2465A when I got my first DSO.  The 2465 was a  good scope but the HP and leCroy DS scopes have so many features such as advanced math, FFT, all sorts of measurements and all sorts of triggering options and waveform storage that the leave the 2465 in the dust!

  If I were you I wouldn't buy an analog scope unless it's local and you can check it yourself and be sure that everything works and you can carry it hope with you instead of shipping it and even them only if it was dirt cheap.  All of that said, I still strongly recommend that you go with a DSO. Good working HP and leCroy DSO are available in my area of the US locally for $50 to $100.  I bought 8 working leCroy 9354 DSOs for about $30 each and that was 4 or 5 years ago.  Two years I bought a 1 GHZ  leCroy scope with a color LCD display and paid less than #300 for it. The leCroy 9354s are an OLD model now that they are still very good scopes and highly reliable and leCroy has released all of the optional software upgrades and you can burn your own GAL and it will enable ALL of their software options.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: helius on December 07, 2020, 01:35:36 am
I think you will tire of manipulating cursors to retrieve your common place measurements.
Note that unlike the 2465 (no suffix) and 2465A, the 2465B does have automatic measurements, so there is no need to use cursors most of the time.

My LeCroy DSO cost $10, and my Tek 2465B cost $350. The LeCroy is fun, but the Tek is more capable in a lot of ways, like dual timebases, loopthrough for increased sensitivity, X-Y, etc. And the importance of not being fooled by aliasing.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: rsjsouza on December 07, 2020, 01:51:44 am
As others mentioned, the usefulness of such wonderful beasts is quickly diminishing due to the enormous advance of the more modern entry level units. I owned a 2445, have a 222A, my first Kenwood CS4025 and still have a 465 in the restoration queue.

Five years ago the entry level oscilloscopes still had some flaws and limitations, and the only one that ticked all the boxes for me to fully replace an analog unit was the Rigol DS4014, which I found in a bargain.
Apart from the 222A and its isolated and high voltage inputs, nowadays they can easily be replaced by one of the more modern aforementioned units from Siglent or GW Instek.

As a restoration project and badge of honor for owning a wondeful machine of the past, it is still a very fun equipment.
Title: Re: Buying a tek 2465B worth it?
Post by: Johnny10 on December 07, 2020, 01:56:18 am
helius, I did not know that.
I for some reason thought I had seen 2445's with automatic measurements.

After following this thread, I started to think back on all the scopes I purchased and I couldn't remember which one I bought first anymore.
I know I coveted all the scopes I have purchased and still do.
Can't let go...

I want to buy more!

Go ahead and buy the 2465B use it and if you like it keep it.
If not sell it and buy something else or put it on a shelf and bring it out every once in a while.

It is not as if it will be the last scope you will want or will buy.

Have fun, that's what it is all about.

We can tell you here what to expect from our experience but that is not your experience. And your experience is what is important.