Can someone help me pick a DMM? Fluke 87V, BM789, BM215, UT-61E, etc..

[nick779]

After reading 30+ threads and buying guides on different meters and comparing spreadsheets and datasheets, I'm a bit lost on what direction to take here. I also failed hard with searching this forum and relied on whatever google could guide me to on this forum. I hate to start another one of these threads, but here goes:

My 9 year old Ideal 61-340 is starting to show some issues from abuse over the years and I am looking to replace it with something that will hopefully outlast me.

At the moment I have settled on the Brymen BM786, purchased from Amazon EEVBlog store as they are the only distributor in NA I can find for this meter. My main concern is the complete lack of support for this meter in the USA and 1 year warranty.

I've also been looking at the Fluke line from the 117, 179, and 87V but get lost in the differences between them. I've also considered that I'm looking at way overkill meters for what my needs are and that's ok, but again I don't want to buy a DMM twice because I cheaped out.

I'm hoping someone can help me figure out what is the best for my needs and point me in the right direction. I'm pretty basic, but I want more advanced features to try and a very reliable meter when taken care of.

Primary uses in order of use frequency:

1. DC Voltage 0.001v - 20v
2. DC Current 0.1mA - to 10A
3. Continuity/resistance
4. Temperature (would be nice)
5. AC Mains testing (120V and occasional use)

Features I would like: Backlight, auto range, hold, true RMS, buzzer continuity.

Heart wants the Fluke based on name, but for the price difference between the 87V and the BM786 I could buy a clamp meter and a nice lead kit too.

Budget is up to ~$450

I appreciate anyone willing to read through that and help me out. Sorry for being one of those guys =/

[bdunham7]

At the moment I have settled on the Brymen BM786, purchased from Amazon EEVBlog store as they are the only distributor in NA I can find for this meter. My main concern is the complete lack of support for this meter in the USA and 1 year warranty.

That is one option and not a bad one.  The meter is a lot of bang-per-buck and you support EEVBlog, which is certainly a good cause.  There's been endless discussion of its technical merits, as I'm sure you've seen, and it does in fact seem to do everything pretty well according to others that have it.  There have been some issues discussed, but certainly not anything disqualifying.  However, your 'main concern' is spot on, IMO.  Dave Jones will honor the warranty at the very least, I'm sure, but there is no support, calibration (Brymen does not release their calibration procedures publicly) or service of any kind available, nor is it possible for the end user to update firmware if that becomes an issue.  Of course, firmware is often not updatable in handheld DMMs, but there are examples that are.

I've also been looking at the Fluke line from the 117, 179, and 87V but get lost in the differences between them. I've also considered that I'm looking at way overkill meters for what my needs are and that's ok, but again I don't want to buy a DMM twice because I cheaped out.

OK, so just to answer your questions directly, the 117 only has a 10A range, no lower current ranges, and no temperature range.  If you were working with AC mains projects, I might recommend the 116, which I have, plus a current clamp like the i-400.  However, that doesn't give you any low-current or DC-current ranges.  The 179 is a classic, but only slightly less expensive than the 87V and I wouldn't consider it.  So if you would prefer Fluke and it's within your budget, go for the 87V.  For your stated intended and possible uses it will do just fine.  The support and "lifetime" warranty mean a lot to me and perhaps you as well--meters can and do fail.  If your Brymen fails 5 years from now, you'll get nothing.  If your 87V fails 5 years from now, you'll get a repair and a new calibration certificate--or a new meter.  You won't regret the purchase of an 87V 10 years from now and you will likely be able to resell it for a good portion of what you paid for it if you need or want to in the future. 

It's not really a technical issue--both meters will do everything you need pretty well.  The BM786 may exceed the 87V in some instances, but I think we get a little bogged down in the minute details in some of these debates.  Try to find an 87V owner who bought their meter new and now regrets it for some reason.

Edit:  If you are looking at the $413 sale model on Amazon, the included test leads are just OK, but the unique insulated alligator clips almost make the deal worth it all on their own.  Also, if you aren't in a big hurry, TEquipment offers EEVBlog members a 6% discount and they have the 87V at the same sale price.

[Wolfgang]

I have Brymen and 87V and the 87V is what I use most of the time. It rips a hole in your wallet, but its almost undestructible and has lifelong warranty. So the investment spreads out over many years ...

[kcbrown]

I think it's important to know just how important support from the manufacturer is going to be to you.

I mention this because you can buy Fluke 87 series meters used for a steep discount.  For instance, I'm seeing 87 III meters go for around $160 or so on eBay, for something that's advertised to be fully functional (though I think the meter doesn't do temperature measurements).

Fluke might support it anyway, in the event it dies in an unrecoverable way, despite the fact that you're not the original purchaser and the 87 III has been out of production for quite some time (I'm unable to ascertain exactly when it went out of production).

There are some 87V meters on the used market as well, but they appear to command a minimum of around $250.

So, ultimately, I expect the decision will depend on whether it's just the Fluke build and general capability you're after, or if you also need a guarantee of the company's support.  If the latter, then buying new is the only way to get that.

Note that, strictly speaking, "lifetime" means 7 years after production of the meter ceases, or 10 years after purchase, whichever is longer.  That's what Fluke's warranty stipulates.  In reality, I seem to recall instances of Fluke providing support for their meters long after that point, even to people who weren't the original owners.  If my memory isn't faulty, then that would make purchase of even these older meters worthwhile for your purposes.

[nick779]

That is one option and not a bad one.  The meter is a lot of bang-per-buck and you support EEVBlog, which is certainly a good cause.  There's been endless discussion of its technical merits, as I'm sure you've seen, and it does in fact seem to do everything pretty well according to others that have it.  There have been some issues discussed, but certainly not anything disqualifying.  However, your 'main concern' is spot on, IMO.  Dave Jones will honor the warranty at the very least, I'm sure, but there is no support, calibration (Brymen does not release their calibration procedures publicly) or service of any kind available, nor is it possible for the end user to update firmware if that becomes an issue.  Of course, firmware is often not updatable in handheld DMMs, but there are examples that are.

Technically speaking the specs on the BM786 are more than I need, which is great. I don't know how necessary calibration is as I've never had one done on my DMMs in the past and and my projects typically don't require the utmost precision. I have read a few of the 786 issues, but I believe most were manufacturing defects or bugs that were resolved. 

OK, so just to answer your questions directly, the 117 only has a 10A range, no lower current ranges, and no temperature range.  If you were working with AC mains projects, I might recommend the 116, which I have, plus a current clamp like the i-400.  However, that doesn't give you any low-current or DC-current ranges.  The 179 is a classic, but only slightly less expensive than the 87V and I wouldn't consider it.  So if you would prefer Fluke and it's within your budget, go for the 87V.  For your stated intended and possible uses it will do just fine.  The support and "lifetime" warranty mean a lot to me and perhaps you as well--meters can and do fail.  If your Brymen fails 5 years from now, you'll get nothing.  If your 87V fails 5 years from now, you'll get a repair and a new calibration certificate--or a new meter.  You won't regret the purchase of an 87V 10 years from now and you will likely be able to resell it for a good portion of what you paid for it if you need or want to in the future. 

It's not really a technical issue--both meters will do everything you need pretty well.  The BM786 may exceed the 87V in some instances, but I think we get a little bogged down in the minute details in some of these debates.  Try to find an 87V owner who bought their meter new and now regrets it for some reason.

Edit:  If you are looking at the $413 sale model on Amazon, the included test leads are just OK, but the unique insulated alligator clips almost make the deal worth it all on their own.  Also, if you aren't in a big hurry, TEquipment offers EEVBlog members a 6% discount and they have the 87V at the same sale price.

I did somewhat factor in the cost of 8000 series probemaster leads for the 87V.

I think at this point based on my low voltage/current needs it's really between the 87V, BM786, and perhaps a few of the recommended ~$65-130 models (AN870 or 37XR or similar). That's a huge spread to look at but I guess I'll just have to deep dive into them to see what is adequate or if spending the money on the Fluke is worth it. It's a strange spot to be in considering the cheaper models are easily replicable as designs improve for the cost of the 87V. Granted the 87V might last 30+ years. Decision paralysis has always been something that I suffered from.

I have Brymen and 87V and the 87V is what I use most of the time. It rips a hole in your wallet, but its almost undestructible and has lifelong warranty. So the investment spreads out over many years ...

I work 99% with DC voltage. How annoying is needing to switch from AC at every power on?

I think it's important to know just how important support from the manufacturer is going to be to you.

I mention this because you can buy Fluke 87 series meters used for a steep discount.  For instance, I'm seeing 87 III meters go for around $160 or so on eBay, for something that's advertised to be fully functional (though I think the meter doesn't do temperature measurements).

Fluke might support it anyway, in the event it dies in an unrecoverable way, despite the fact that you're not the original purchaser and the 87 III has been out of production for quite some time (I'm unable to ascertain exactly when it went out of production).

There are some 87V meters on the used market as well, but they appear to command a minimum of around $250.

So, ultimately, I expect the decision will depend on whether it's just the Fluke build and general capability you're after, or if you also need a guarantee of the company's support.  If the latter, then buying new is the only way to get that.

Note that, strictly speaking, "lifetime" means 7 years after production of the meter ceases, or 10 years after purchase, whichever is longer.  That's what Fluke's warranty stipulates.  In reality, I seem to recall instances of Fluke providing support for their meters long after that point, even to people who weren't the original owners.  If my memory isn't faulty, then that would make purchase of even these older meters worthwhile for your purposes.

I'm not normally opposed to used, but I've seen a few threads on counterfeit meters over the last few days. Not sure how widespread that is. That said, I would probably buy new from an authorized distributor.


Overall though I suppose that's the chance I take. $475 for an 87V and leads for at the very least 10 guaranteed years from Fluke OR 2-4 meters over the years that could outlive the Fluke, but with no support.

[bdunham7]

I did somewhat factor in the cost of 8000 series probemaster leads for the 87V.

Granted the 87V might last 30+ years. Decision paralysis has always been something that I suffered from.

I work 99% with DC voltage. How annoying is needing to switch from AC at every power on?

I'm not normally opposed to used,

+1 for Probemaster

Many earlier 87 series meters have lasted 30 years, and unlike almost all competitors, a complete manual with schematics is available for it if it needs a repair long in the future.  Longevity was something you specifically mentioned, it may not be as important to others.

You don't need to switch from AC to measure DC voltage, it is only the current ranges that are initially AC, it takes a button press to change it.  The mechanical switch positions are different for AC and D voltage, but are shared for current.

I'm not opposed to used either, but very questionable stuff is bringing top dollar these days. 

[kcbrown]

I'm not opposed to used either, but very questionable stuff is bringing top dollar these days.

That is certainly true.  You have to look very carefully at what you're getting.

I suppose it's possible there are counterfeit 87 III meters out there.  Can't say.  I would expect to see a lot more of them if they were counterfeit, though.

No, to me, the biggest risk of buying used is that the meter doesn't perform properly, i.e. is either misrepresented or something that is presumed to be working actually isn't.  That's always a risk in the used market regardless.  But as you say, these meters have schematics available so save for a fault in a custom chip (and perhaps even in that case), the meter should be repairable as long as you can get replacement parts.

[bdunham7]

I suppose it's possible there are counterfeit 87 III meters out there.  Can't say.  I would expect to see a lot more of them if they were counterfeit, though.

There aren't counterfeits out there because it is/was manufactured in the US.  Now whether those imported 'grey market' 17B+ models are genuine or not, I don't know.

[J-R]

FYI, the BM786 from Dave's store is $170US delivered, vs. $185 from Amazon.   Get the fuse pack too.

Buying used is a great option.  For ebay: reputable seller, carefully look at the description and photos, check the seller's other listings and past sales, ask questions.  If you avoid used on ebay you'll really be missing out.
Sometimes good deals can be found at the Amazon Warehouse.

Have you considered the BM829s?  Very large digits, dual display, dual temperature, auto-check mode, IR-USB option.

The 121GW is also worth looking at.  It has a lot of great features.  Dave is sold out, but Welectron has them in stock.  (They are a good place for Brymen as well.  Get the BM27s too while you're there!)  Biggest negative is speed, unfortunately.


My personal opinion is that in 2021 an electronics hobbyist should not be buying their primary DMM without a communications option.  So that means no to the BM78x and the Fluke 87V/88V.  But yes to Fluke 287/289, Keysight U1282 (+ many others), or a bench meter (lots of new/used options).  But if that is not the use case then almost everything is on the table.

[rsjsouza]

My US$0.02:

I have a 87V and had a 179 - both are really excellent meters.

Nowadays it is not really difficult to surpass the 87V in features. Since you don't seem to really need the safety, the Fluke is overpriced for this parameter alone. However, its build quality and ease of use are great highlights - not to mention the track record of many decades of completely rotten meters in the used market that are still spot on w.r.t. measurements. A similar story goes for the 179, although it loses a few points to the 87V as it does not have a few other features such as relative and mA and it has 1kHz bandwidth (the 87V is 20kHz, which is good enough for measurements across the audio spectrum). The 87V defaults to AC current measurements. Not a huge deal in my opinion, but others will say the entire meter becomes useless simply due to this. YMMV.

I have also a Brymen, although a different one (BM857). It is an excellent meter, fully featured (a bit less featured than your candidate BM786) but it has more bandwidth (20kHz) and misses on the autohold (I love this on the Flukes and Keysights, although the BM786 has it as well). I can tell that Brymen has a superb customer service (I haven't had the need to use Fluke's) but the build quality, at least for the BM857, is two notches under the Flukes.

A third brand you might consider is Keysight: their U1272A/1273A are my favourite meters (I have a U1273A, as well as a U1282A) and fully featured - nothing really is missing: autohold, frequency, DC+AC, Low Z, one of the best datalogging features, etc. Build quality is a notch under the Fluke, although better than the Brymen that I have.

From the cheaper alternatives, both the AN870 (I have its Richmeters counterpart RM219) and the UT61E (non plus) are excellent. Both are fully featured but the Aneng loses the bargraph and has a worse display. The UT61E is more responsive, has a good bargraph and excellent capacitance meter but does not have backlight and NCV (if that matters to you).

Overall, the choices are plentiful. Good luck in your quest!

[Fungus]

At the moment I have settled on the Brymen BM786, purchased from Amazon EEVBlog store as they are the only distributor in NA I can find for this meter. My main concern is the complete lack of support for this meter in the USA and 1 year warranty.

I wouldn't obsess over the Fluke warranty.

Do the math: You have an incredibly small chance of it going wrong after the first year (one in a thousand?) and having to replace it vs. a 100% certain chance of paying twice the price for a Fluke.

Leave the Fluke 87V for the corporations and government contractors. All the lesser Flukes have missing features, this is deliberate by Fluke.

Heart wants the Fluke based on name, but for the price difference between the 87V and the BM786 I could buy a clamp meter and a nice lead kit too.

Yes, that's the correct way to think. You can have a good meter plus a nice soldering iron and a clamp for the same money..

Right now in the USA I'd get either the BM786 or the Amprobe AM-160-A which is a Brymen BM859 in disguise - a very capable meter. FWIW Amprobe is Fluke's sister company and Fluke/Amprobe both operate in the exact same building.

https://www.amprobe.com/product/am-160-a/

The Amprobe is simpler functionality and works more like a Fluke 87V than the BM786. The BM786 will have more users on EEVBLOG to talk with.

Either way you won't be missing out on anything compared to owning a Fluke except for the color.

[nick779]

I really do appreciate the advice everyone! I think for now I'm going to stick with the BM786 and look for a pocket meter like the BM27s, a clamp meter, and probably get a modular lead kit since I've only ever had typical factory junk leads.

[bdunham7]

probably get a modular lead kit since I've only ever had typical factory junk leads.

The leads that come with the BM786 are supposedly pretty good and if I'm not mistaken, compatible with Probemaster 8000 series accessories.

[Fungus]

probably get a modular lead kit since I've only ever had typical factory junk leads.

The leads that come with the BM786 are supposedly pretty good and if I'm not mistaken, compatible with Probemaster 8000 series accessories.

I don't know which leads come as standard but I don't think it comes with crocodile clips.

Multimeter leads don't need to cost a fortune though. You can get some pretty good ones for a few $$$ on Aliexpress and official gold plated Brymens with crocodile clips and banana adapters can be had for under $20. I included a set of these when I got my BM857.

https://brymen.eu/shop/silicone-test-leads-bl21s2-t4sc-brymen/

https://brymen.eu/shop/bac3/

[nctnico]

After reading 30+ threads and buying guides on different meters and comparing spreadsheets and datasheets, I'm a bit lost on what direction to take here. I also failed hard with searching this forum and relied on whatever google could guide me to on this forum. I hate to start another one of these threads, but here goes:

My 9 year old Ideal 61-340 is starting to show some issues from abuse over the years and I am looking to replace it with something that will hopefully outlast me.

At the moment I have settled on the Brymen BM786, purchased from Amazon EEVBlog store as they are the only distributor in NA I can find for this meter. My main concern is the complete lack of support for this meter in the USA and 1 year warranty.

I've also been looking at the Fluke line from the 117, 179, and 87V but get lost in the differences between them. I've also considered that I'm looking at way overkill meters for what my needs are and that's ok, but again I don't want to buy a DMM twice because I cheaped out.

I'm hoping someone can help me figure out what is the best for my needs and point me in the right direction. I'm pretty basic, but I want more advanced features to try and a very reliable meter when taken care of.

Primary uses in order of use frequency:

1. DC Voltage 0.001v - 20v
2. DC Current 0.1mA - to 10A
3. Continuity/resistance
4. Temperature (would be nice)
5. AC Mains testing (120V and occasional use)

Features I would like: Backlight, auto range, hold, true RMS, buzzer continuity.

Look at the DMMs from Keysight as well. Last time I looked for a handheld DMM I ended up with the U1241B from Keysight. Primary reason for choosing an A-brand is that I want to be able to use it on mains without being concerned for my safety.

[geggi1]

You should get a multimeter that fits your requirements.
For hobby use that only require normal accuracy you will get plenty of bang for the $ by looking at instruments from UNI-T https://www.uni-trend.com/meters/html/product/General_Meters/DigitalMultimeters/
You budget will probably give you more toys than only  multimeter.
In your post you say that you would like to measure current with your meter. If measuring from a power supply AC or DC without any kind of current limitation its very simple to damage the meter. The best way to measure current is with a clamp meter or a current-clamp for your multimeter.

If you are using your meter professional you better get one form one of the well known brands like BK, Fluke, Keysight and so on. The reason for this is that you will need a calibration certificate to do traceable measurements.

[Fungus]

Look at the DMMs from Keysight as well. Last time I looked for a handheld DMM I ended up with the U1241B from Keysight. Primary reason for choosing an A-brand is that I want to be able to use it on mains without being concerned for my safety.

The BM789 has the exact same safety certifications as your U1241B (ie. CAT III 1000V / CAT IV 600V).

[tooki]

Just don’t be tempted by the Keysight U1250 series: it’s got maddeningly slow continuity and a few other oddities. The U1240, U1270, and U1280 series are newer and don’t have those issues.

[bdunham7]

The BM789 has the exact same safety certifications as your U1241B (ie. CAT III 1000V / CAT IV 600V).

Look at the handheld meter robustness thread, the discussion about the UNI-T UT125C.  It has the same  CATIII/600V ratings as my Fluke 116, apparently all blessed by UL.  It even has 3 MOVs, 2 PTCs, a TVS diode and apparently, a questionable spark gap.  Do you really think they are equivalent in regards to safety and the jqs 'robustness' factor? 

This is not a criticism of Brymen, but rather of your apparent insistence that the CAT rating label is the only valid indicia of quality in this regard. 

[nctnico]

Look at the DMMs from Keysight as well. Last time I looked for a handheld DMM I ended up with the U1241B from Keysight. Primary reason for choosing an A-brand is that I want to be able to use it on mains without being concerned for my safety.

The BM789 has the exact same safety certifications as your U1241B (ie. CAT III 1000V / CAT IV 600V).

Yeah, but where does my wife send the lawyers to in case the Brymen blows up in my face? Keysight has deep pockets (same goes for Fluke).

[Shock]

Fluke 87V and Fluke 189 are my main meters. If I didn't have them the Brymen BM869s would likely be my number one choice. Haven't looked hard at the Brymen BM786, would consider if superior robustness, specs and features.

[Fungus]

Fluke 87V and Fluke 189 are my main meters. If I didn't have them the Brymen BM869s would likely be my number one choice. Haven't looked hard at the Brymen BM786, would consider if superior robustness, specs and features.

It's much lower down the Brymen line than the 869s - no dual display, no 500,000 count mode or anything like that.

It's a solid meter though, plenty of functions and the price is right.

[Fungus]

Look at the handheld meter robustness thread, the discussion about the UNI-T UT125C.  It has the same  CATIII/600V ratings as my Fluke 116, apparently all blessed by UL.  It even has 3 MOVs, 2 PTCs, a TVS diode and apparently, a questionable spark gap.  Do you really think they are equivalent in regards to safety and the jqs 'robustness' factor?

No, but we're talking about Brymen, not Uni-T.

PS: CAT ratings don't say anything about the meter surviving, only the user. It's pretty obvious by now that Uni-Ts die at the drop of a hat but are they unsafe for the users? I wouldn't know, I've never seen a Uni-T tested for that.

[bdunham7]

No, but we're talking about Brymen, not Uni-T.

I was specifically talking about using CAT ratings and labels in general as the basis for comparison. 

PS: CAT ratings don't say anything about the meter surviving, only the user.

I'm pretty sure that isn't exactly true. 

[Shock]

https://content.fluke.com/promotions/promo-dmm/0518-dmm-campaign/dmm/fluke_dmm-chfr/files/safetyguidelines.pdf

"Within a category, a higher voltage rating denotes a higher transient withstand rating"

[joeqsmith]

...
My 9 year old Ideal 61-340 is starting to show some issues from abuse over the years and I am looking to replace it with something that will hopefully outlast me.
...

4000 count, averaging meter that lasted you 9 years.  Maybe just stay with that same brand/model.  Save the money for something else.       

[tooki]

No, but we're talking about Brymen, not Uni-T.

I was specifically talking about using CAT ratings and labels in general as the basis for comparison. 

PS: CAT ratings don't say anything about the meter surviving, only the user.

I'm pretty sure that isn't exactly true.

It is my understanding that that’s precisely what the CAT standards say: the user must be protected, but the meter can be sacrificial.

[Fungus]

It is my understanding that that’s precisely what the CAT standards say: the user must be protected, but the meter can be sacrificial.

This is where I see the difference between brands like Brymen/Fluke and Uni-T (for example). Some brands make an effort for the meter to survive (Brymen/Fluke), others only want the safety mark on the front and produce meters that don't easily kill the user but the meters themselves die at the drop of a hat (Uni-T).

Then there's brands that lie and put false ratings on the front.

So long as you know where your meter stands then it's not a problem.

Apply some common sense, too, eg. don't go into an industrial zone thinking "I'm perfectly safe and can do whatever I want because my meter is expensive". It doesn't work that way. 90% of the safety battle is knowledge and procedure.

[bdunham7]

It is my understanding that that’s precisely what the CAT standards say: the user must be protected, but the meter can be sacrificial.

From an earlier discussion of IEC 61010-2-033:

"After the voltage of 4.4.2.101 has been applied to the METER, the METER shall continue to be
able to indicate the presence of HAZARDOUS LIVE voltages up to the maximum RATED voltage.
NOTE The METER is not required to maintain its normal accuracy. A maximum deviation of 10 % is acceptable."

So it can sustain damage, but must not stop working entirely.  That's what I was referring to--the standard is not silent about damage to the meter.  It might be a lot easier to design a meter to pass CAT (x) standards if this was not a requirement.

[nick779]

...
My 9 year old Ideal 61-340 is starting to show some issues from abuse over the years and I am looking to replace it with something that will hopefully outlast me.
...

4000 count, averaging meter that lasted you 9 years.  Maybe just stay with that same brand/model.  Save the money for something else.     

It's certainly worked for the most part, but I have wanted to upgrade for a while as I had quite a few gripes with it.

BTW I really enjoyed your series of videos reviewing this meter. Very thorough and easy to understand. Granted it did make the 869S look quite appealing.

[25 CPS]

Just don’t be tempted by the Keysight U1250 series: it’s got maddeningly slow continuity and a few other oddities. The U1240, U1270, and U1280 series are newer and don’t have those issues.

I ended up with a U1252A blue Agilent model and a U1252B, the current Keysight version of this meter in that series last year.  I haven't used them heavily so I haven't encountered anything strange personally yet - what should I be watching out for?

[Fungus]

I ended up with a U1252A blue Agilent model and a U1252B, the current Keysight version of this meter in that series last year.  I haven't used them heavily so I haven't encountered anything strange personally yet - what should I be watching out for?

Listen to how nice and clicky the rotary switch is right at the start of the video then listen to the feeble grinding noise it makes just a few seconds in (or jump to 1:40 to hear it better).

[Shock]

Haven't checked the latest or IEC version but the 2012 BS EN 61010-2-033 seems to make it clear that functional integrity needs to be maintained at rated voltage and transients. It goes into a bit more detail that no hazard should arise from overvoltage limiting or ambiguous measurements displayed.

Older standards seem to have omitted this but functional operation of the device within it's rating is implied. I've never read anything that says it's acceptable for a device to fail within it's measurement category rating (under normal operation), it doesn't make sense.

bdunham7, I think you have misread that paragraphs intention. It was referring to measuring slightly over max voltage by design so that the user can still interpret it. Not failure inducing levels and still operating. It's a bit clearer when you read the test they are referring to.   

[bdunham7]

Haven't checked the latest or IEC version but the 2012 BS EN 61010-2-033 seems to make it clear that functional integrity needs to be maintained at rated voltage and transients. It goes into a bit more detail that no hazard should arise from overvoltage limiting or ambiguous measurements displayed.

bdunham7, I think you have misread that paragraphs intention. It was referring to measuring slightly over max voltage by design so that the user can still interpret it. Not failure inducing levels and still operating. It's a bit clearer when you read the test they are referring to.

I only have the quote in isolation, out of context, so I can't be sure.  However, you seem to be indicating that what I am asserting--that the meter is not allowed to just fail completely--is in fact part of the standard somewhere, even if it isn't the part I'm quoting.  I don't have section 4.4.2.101 that they refer to, so I can't know if that is the relevant test.

[nctnico]

Haven't checked the latest or IEC version but the 2012 BS EN 61010-2-033 seems to make it clear that functional integrity needs to be maintained at rated voltage and transients. It goes into a bit more detail that no hazard should arise from overvoltage limiting or ambiguous measurements displayed.

bdunham7, I think you have misread that paragraphs intention. It was referring to measuring slightly over max voltage by design so that the user can still interpret it. Not failure inducing levels and still operating. It's a bit clearer when you read the test they are referring to.

I only have the quote in isolation, out of context, so I can't be sure.  However, you seem to be indicating that what I am asserting--that the meter is not allowed to just fail completely--is in fact part of the standard somewhere, even if it isn't the part I'm quoting.  I don't have section 4.4.2.101 that they refer to, so I can't know if that is the relevant test.

Shock's interpretation seems logical to me. For example: how can a meter still read current after an overcurrent situation has blown the fuse?

[BeBuLamar]

I heard good things about the Brymen but Brymen doesn't sell in the USA so my choice would be the Fluke 87V. It's a nice meter and does all the things that you require but I don't know if the other meters can do the same for less or not as I never own one of them.
I had the original 87 and when it's broke for the second time I had to buy the 189. I use an 87V at work all the time. I also have 289. They are all nice meters but I think I would pick up the 87V for quick job. I think I would get my company to get me the 87V Max. I am afraid it may be too big.

[bdunham7]

Shock's interpretation seems logical to me. For example: how can a meter still read current after an overcurrent situation has blown the fuse?

So I actually found an older UK version of the standard, and while it doesn't really match what I was saying, it doesn't match a lot of other things that I see elsewhere--for example there is no CAT I.  I think we all have been doing too much thinking with too little information.  So I'll have to peruse it a bit.

As far as current and other issues, I think (but may be wrong) that it goes like this:

The meter must withstand it's RATED voltage (not transients or overvoltages) being applied to any terminal that is compatible with the same leads as the voltage inputs.  That means ohms, capacitance, diode, current, whatever the meter has.  The available fault current in the case of the current ranges is listed by CAT level but there are enough conditions there that I'll just say it is very high.  "Withstand" seems to mean (again, subject to more reading) that it 1) doesn't blow up or catch on fire and  2) it continue to be able to "indicate the presence of hazardous voltages" --not 'work properly'--presumably when the operator actually changes the switch and/or leads to a voltage range.

In addition, the meter is tested in the voltage mode and overvoltages (the section I quoted) and transients are applied.  There again, it is required that the meter not pose a hazard and in the section I quoted, continue to operate enough to again, "indicate the presence of hazardous voltages".  In what I was reading, I could not find a clear, express requirement that the meter needed to survive the transient testing and still read voltages.  However, in newer standards there is a CAT I (unless Fluke et. al. are just making that up!) and it is pretty clear that there is no real arc-flash or significant fire hazard in CAT I.  The primary emphasis of this standard does not seem to be the arc-flash vaporized meters that we all discuss--there are other issues too, like leakage, shock hazards and the ability of the meter to....."indicate the presence of hazardous voltages" .  It would seem silly to me that the meter would be deemed 'safe' when a small ESD charge could damage it in a way so that 1000VDC reads 0V or some other low voltage.

Anyway, I'll keep searching for the latest standard because I'm pretty sure that things have changed. 

[J-R]

I heard good things about the Brymen but Brymen doesn't sell in the USA so my choice would be the Fluke 87V. It's a nice meter and does all the things that you require but I don't know if the other meters can do the same for less or not as I never own one of them.
I had the original 87 and when it's broke for the second time I had to buy the 189. I use an 87V at work all the time. I also have 289. They are all nice meters but I think I would pick up the 87V for quick job. I think I would get my company to get me the 87V Max. I am afraid it may be too big.

FYI:

Greenlee rebrands some Brymen DMMs for sale in the US.  (Not all Greenlee DMMs are Brymen.)

Welectron.com has been my go-to for Brymen as they offer DHL shipping to the US for about $11US per order.

[Fungus]

I heard good things about the Brymen but Brymen doesn't sell in the USA so my choice would be the Fluke 87V.

Brymens are rebranded in the USA under Amprobe and Greenlee brands.

eg. These are Brymen's top "industrial" meters (BM857 and BM859):

https://www.amprobe.com/product-category/multimeters/precision/

(feel free to read the specs and compare with your 87V...  )


These are Brymens in a green case:

https://www.tequipment.net/greenlee/multimeters/

Welectron.com has been my go-to for Brymen as they offer DHL shipping to the US for about $11US per order.

This, too.

[Anthocyanina]

taking advantage of this thread, as lately i'm looking for a multimeter under 80 USD (maybe i could stretch my budget to 100$ if nothing in that range is worth it) particularly for ohms measurement. It seems in the under 80$ the ut 61e is the best overall, but is there any which might be better in the ohms range? i would like to be able to have the most accurate and precise ohms measurement possible in that price range. I've seen the comparison between the 61e and 61e+ and an aneng whose model i don't remember at this moment, and they seem pretty close. I would also use it for the ocasional low voltage/low current measurements (nothing ever above 24V/1A) so input protections not being the best wouldn't matter that much, but i really want to have the best meter for ohms within that price range. Would anyone have a recommendation other than the uni-t or the aneng? Thank you!

[Fungus]

it seems in the under 80$ the ut 61e is the best overall, but is there any which might be better in the ohms range? i would like to be able to have the most accurate and precise ohms measurement possible in that price range. I've seen the comparison between the 61e and 61e+ and an aneng whose model i don't remember at this moment, and they seem pretty close.

I'm not a fan of the Uni-Ts, they don't seem to offer anything over the far cheaper Anengs and they're not really any "safer" or more robust.

Resistance? The UT61e+ has Ohms accuracy of 0.5%+10, the Aneng 870 has Ohms accuracy of 0.2%+3.

nb. No meter is very good at measuring tiny amounts of Ohms because of cables, probes, contact resistance, etc. It doesn't matter how many times you press the "rel" button, it's not going to magically fix it.

For tiny Ohms you need 4-wire measurements.

My advice: Get an Aneng 870 and splash out an extra couple of bucks on some very sharp gold plated probes.

eg. These: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001306288640.html

(randomly chosen seller, there's hundred of people selling those)

[Anthocyanina]

My advice: Get an Aneng 870 and splash out an extra couple of bucks on some very sharp gold plated probes.

eg. These: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/4001306288640.html

(randomly chosen seller, there's hundred of people selling those)

Thank you! That's the Aneng I've seen compared to the ut 61e ( not the plus) and while that's the one i've seen the comparisson for, it is about 39$ at the moment, since my budget is about 80$ do you think i could get a better one for ohms in that range? or under 80$ they are all the same? i'm still reading thru the specifications of most i see in that price range and they seem pretty similar. Maybe getting the An870 and probemaster probes would be the best to do within my budget? Thanks again!

[rsjsouza]

If you have up to $80 to spend and will use your meter in the bench, the UT61E is the best bang per buck. Sure, it does not have the protection, but for the bench this is not very important. If you would like better protection, stretch the budget to $100 and get the BM235 from Dave.

The Aneng AN870 has terrible contrast, although it has larger digits than the UT61E. It also does not have a bargraph and PC communications. I personally like the bargraph, which on the UT61E is well implemented. Also, the capacitance checker of the UT61E is excellent, although a LCR is usually much more usable.

I have both meters and they clearly cater to different price points.

Despite the rated difference in ohms' accuracy, they both have relative mode to null the residual resistance and measure low ohms relatively ok. I did not perceive any significant difference between them.

BTW, Newark/Farnell is running a special on the UT61E with better protection (1kV) for $55.

[Fungus]

The Aneng AN870 has terrible contrast

Not true.

It also does not have a bargraph and PC communications.

I'll concede that. The Aneng is better for measuring but the Uni-T has a couple of extra talents.

I still wouldn't spend $80 on one though. Once you get to that price point you might as well save up for a couple more weeks and get a proper meter.

Me? If I needed a meter today I'd buy the Aneng then start saving for a Brymen.

BTW, Newark/Farnell is running a special on the UT61E with better protection (1kV) for $55.

The big problem with the UT61E is that you have no idea what input protection you're going to get. They make many variants with different amounts of protection components and it's a lottery which one you'll get.

At least the Anengs seem to survive Joe's grill starter test, the UT61E didn't.

[Fungus]

Aneng ... do you think i could get a better one for ohms in that range?

No.

or under 80$ they are all the same?

The Aneng is the best measurement bang per buck under $100. It's also a pretty solidly built meter.

If you buy the probemaster probes they'll still serve you when you eventually get a Brymen. 

[Shock]

The UniT 61E ohm resolution is good, but I find for practical reasons if you need greater low ohms resolution than most handheld multimeters you need to go down to 100 microohms or use an external current source to measure voltage drop and solve for resistance. Anywhere lower than that also detects hidden chinesium.

[Fungus]

The UniT 61E ohm resolution is good, but I find for practical reasons if you need greater low ohms resolution than most handheld multimeters you need to go down to 100 microohms or use an external current source to measure the voltage drop and solve for resistance. Anywhere lower than that also detects hidden chinesium.

Yep. No "ordinary" meter will work will under a couple of Ohms. For that you need a specialized meter or get a current source and do a four wire measurement (measure volts and amps simultaneously with two meters).

[nctnico]

The UniT 61E ohm resolution is good, but I find for practical reasons if you need greater low ohms resolution than most handheld multimeters you need to go down to 100 microohms or use an external current source to measure the voltage drop and solve for resistance. Anywhere lower than that also detects hidden chinesium.

Yep. No "ordinary" meter will work will under a couple of Ohms. For that you need a specialized meter or get a current source and do a four wire measurement (measure volts and amps simultaneously with two meters).

Don't confuse accuracy with resolution here. It is perfectly possible to find which Mosfet has a short from a couple of mosfets in parallel using standard probes.

[bdunham7]

Yep. No "ordinary" meter will work will under a couple of Ohms. For that you need a specialized meter or get a current source and do a four wire measurement (measure volts and amps simultaneously with two meters).

If by 'ordinary' you mean cheap junk, then OK.  "Ordinary" meters should be able to read accurately (absolutely) to 0.1 ohms with decent connections and REL/zeroing.  "Good" meters will do 0.01 ohms fairly well under the same conditions.  Even when you can't make metrology-grade connections due to the realities of probing real devices, you should be able to get this relative level of resolution for component comparison and short finding purposes.

[Fungus]

If by 'ordinary' you mean cheap junk, then OK.  "Ordinary" meters should be able to read accurately (absolutely) to 0.1 ohms with decent connections and REL/zeroing.

OK, maybe down to an Ohm you'll be able to do it with gold leads, etc.

I just tried two meters (Aneng 870 with $2 Aliexpress gold leads and Brymen BM857 with $12 Brymen gold leads) and shorted the probes, pressed rel, then put the probes together differently and they both said about 0.03.

I also did it with my Fluke 187 which has the crappy non-gold Fluke probes and results were much more variable, from negative numbers to about 0.2 Ohms.

Moral: Use gold leads.

[bdunham7]

Moral: Use gold leads.

Yes, the connections are always the weak point in real-life testing.  With solid connections, most decent meters will be good to within a count or two, or the equivalent of that.

I'm actually working on producing some improved ohms-testing probes for bench meters--they're supposedly being assembled now, but given the malaise infesting almost any business these days I'm not holding my breath.  Maybe someday I'll be able to show them off.

[rsjsouza]

The Aneng AN870 has terrible contrast

Not true.

Where's the UT61E in this picture? Oh yes, you don't have one!

The background of the the AN870's LCD has a slightly off putting bluish and the strength of the digits is not great at all when compared to many others including the UT61E

Another series of photos on my website
https://sites.google.com/view/vbeletronico/display-de-mult%C3%ADmetros

It also does not have a bargraph and PC communications.

I'll concede that. The Aneng is better for measuring but the Uni-T has a couple of extra talents.

I still wouldn't spend $80 on one though. Once you get to that price point you might as well save up for a couple more weeks and get a proper meter.

Me? If I needed a meter today I'd buy the Aneng then start saving for a Brymen.

And that's ok. It is your opinion.

Since you never had a UT61E, you don't know about how fast its autorange is - yes, including ohms in all ranges. The Aneng has a behaviour very common in several of the latest releases from China: the autorange comes from the top of the range (megohms) and cycles through all ranges to reach the ohms ranges. Measuring hundreds of kiloohms or megohms is ok-ish with the Aneng, but near the bottom it becomes extremely annoying.

BTW, Newark/Farnell is running a special on the UT61E with better protection (1kV) for $55.

The big problem with the UT61E is that you have no idea what input protection you're going to get. They make many variants with different amounts of protection components and it's a lottery which one you'll get.

Yes, there are two different ones nowadays: the chinese version with a very scant protection (the ones that were burned on Joe's tests) and another one just like the one for sale at Newark with beefier protection (which, considering Joe's tests, would probably still be dangerously close to being damaged but we can only speculate).

Again, Fungus, both the Aneng and the Uni-T have their place. The Aneng has bigger digits, NCV, a backlight, temperature, 20A input, higher diode testing, while the UT61E has 22000 counts, much faster autorange in all functions, bargraph, PC Comms, better tilting bale and so on.

[Anthocyanina]

I still wouldn't spend $80 on one though. Once you get to that price point you might as well save up for a couple more weeks and get a proper meter.

Me? If I needed a meter today I'd buy the Aneng then start saving for a Brymen.


The big problem with the UT61E is that you have no idea what input protection you're going to get. They make many variants with different amounts of protection components and it's a lottery which one you'll get.

At least the Anengs seem to survive Joe's grill starter test, the UT61E didn't.

The thing is, where i live, 80$ is already a lot of money, saving more than that for a significatnly better meter would take me a lot more than a few weeks or even more than a few months. Woud it be better then to keep saving and get something else maybe around may next year? ( winder how awful prices will be next year) How durable would the aneng or the uni-t be? I do need an ok multimeter mostly for resistance measurement soon, but if those meters won't last me for years, then i think it would be better to keep saving and figure out what to do without a good usable meter right now.

Aneng ... do you think i could get a better one for ohms in that range?

No.

or under 80$ they are all the same?

The Aneng is the best measurement bang per buck under $100. It's also a pretty solidly built meter.

If you buy the probemaster probes they'll still serve you when you eventually get a Brymen. 

Thank you! (and everyone who chimed in! )

[Fungus]

Where's the UT61E in this picture? Oh yes, you don't have one!

That's correct, I don't want one.

The background of the the AN870's LCD has a slightly off putting bluish and the strength of the digits is not great at all when compared to many others including the UT61E

Maybe, but you can't say it has "terrible contrast". It doesn't.

If you have both then feel free to upload a comparison photo like I did.

[rsjsouza]

Where's the UT61E in this picture? Oh yes, you don't have one!

That's correct, I don't want one.

C'mon, man!    So you are in a position where you can't make the claims about the UT61E objectively. That is my beef with your argument. I am no fanboy of Uni-T or its UT61E product - I scoffed at it for years before I got one on a fire sale somewhere and it gave me a good impression. Sure, it would have been much less impressive if I had an AN870 in my hands, but it is clearly a notch above it.

The background of the the AN870's LCD has a slightly off putting bluish and the strength of the digits is not great at all when compared to many others including the UT61E

Maybe, but you can't say it has "terrible contrast". It doesn't.

If you have both then feel free to upload a comparison photo like I did.

It is the worse contrast of all my meters. That classifies it as terrible. No photos at the time as my meters are somewhat in disarray due to a recent house move.

@Anthocyanina, I forgot to mention two details:
The UT61E for sale at Newark is a rebrand: Tenma 72-10415
My page with the LCD screens show the RM219, which is the same meter as the AN870.

[Anthocyanina]

@Anthocyanina, I forgot to mention two details:
The UT61E for sale at Newark is a rebrand: Tenma 72-10415
My page with the LCD screens show the RM219, which is the same meter as the AN870.

Was at newark's checkout, but it won't accept paypal! ( the only payment method i can use) i tried to find it or the Uni-T version anywhere that accepted paypal, but couldn't find it (where they also didn't charge too much for shipping). Found it on banggood but significantly more expensive ( 71$) so i went with the an870 and the probemaster probes! now waiting for them to arrive 

[Anthocyanina]

Both the probes and the multimeter have now arrived home! The probe master probes feel super nice, and i love their shape; however, they don't properly fit the AN870, the banana plug is a bit longer and it doesn't go in all the way and the probes come out quite easily from the meter but fortunately they still make good enough contact with the meter's sockets, as long as you don't move it around much, which is fine for what i do. touching the leads that came with the meter reads 40milliohms at the lowest, and with the probe master ones, usually reads 20milliohms and ocasionally reads lower, even 0 some times. I have a 2.2 0hm 0.01% resistor and with the probes that came with the meter + REL, it reads 2.20 ohms, with the probe master probes, i don't have to REL for it to read the same. I'm really happy with this combination, but wish the AN870 had deeper sockets so the probes would fit nicely 

One thing i didn't like about the multimeter is that when opening the bag it came in, it fell to the floor and the display window thing fell off, and in the second it took me to grab it and put it back together, cat hairs had invaded the space and my attempts at getting them out only resulted in more getting in! wish they used better glue for the window thing.

[rsjsouza]

I am sorry to hear about the display cover. For the price, unfortunately the mechanical robustness will be weaker than a mainstream meter.

Regarding the probes, did you see if their jacks have split contacts? You could try to expand them to have a more secure fit.
You could also try to tighten the circular terminals on the multimeter itself.
In my experience, loose probes are a source of headaches and frustration, especially when you most need a reliable reading.

[Fungus]

Both the probes and the multimeter have now arrived home! The probe master probes feel super nice, and i love their shape; however, they don't properly fit the AN870, the banana plug is a bit longer and it doesn't go in all the way and the probes come out quite easily from the meter

You could try trimming a bit of plastic off the super-long shrouds. See if they go further in.

[Anthocyanina]

I am sorry to hear about the display cover. For the price, unfortunately the mechanical robustness will be weaker than a mainstream meter.

Yeah, It's an unfortunate thing but i can live with that

Regarding the probes, did you see if their jacks have split contacts? You could try to expand them to have a more secure fit.
You could also try to tighten the circular terminals on the multimeter itself.
In my experience, loose probes are a source of headaches and frustration, especially when you most need a reliable reading.

The probes look like they use this plug style, which i think is why they feel loose, since it's narrow at the tip, while the included probes are straight. They aren't super loose, but they do come out very easily. I'll take a look later at the inside of the multimeter, I'd like to see if i could find the same kind of socket, the metal part at least, and replace it with a longer one since the metal in the multimeter socket is recessed like 5mm inside the plastic.

You could try trimming a bit of plastic off the super-long shrouds. See if they go further in.

I've thought about this but don't see an easy way to cut it symmetrically, i inserted a plastic rod in the socket and it's as deep as the shroud in the probes, but i insterted a piece of paper around it, and it's about 5mm shallower, so i think this would work, and i think this would be the easiest option if i can find a way to cut it nicely, thank you!

[Anthocyanina]

Well, I did it! having another set as a backup, i decided to try once i realised electrical tape could serve as a cutting guide; its width served as a perfect guide and i used an x-acto knife to slowly cut just barely above the tape. It isn't super clean but also isn't horribly bad, and the few mm i cut were just enough that the bananas fit snuggly in the multimeter sockets and are even fairly hard to rotate inside and remove.

[rsjsouza]

Congratulations on the work!