Chinese Junk-a Provocative Challenge. Give your best shot!

[dfmischler]

The shorthand I use is "China's Finest" or "China's Cheapest".

China's Finest is a pretty good product.  China's Cheapest is kind of scary.

[Rick Law]

Jim Rogers, founder/CEO of Quantum Fund, was quoted in Business Week (or Fortune about 10 years ago) "The best gift one can give to their children is the knowledge of Mandarin."   In his New York City penthouse, he hired a Chinese nanny to make sure his kid(s) can speak Chinese.  He later moved to Singapore so his kid(s) can get fluent with Chinese.

Net-net is: If you are just starting your career, going to a community college to sign up for a Chinese course will do you a world of good.

Rick
Quote from Wikipedia:
<sub>"In December 2007, Rogers sold his mansion in New York City for about 16 million USD and moved to Singapore. Rogers claimed that he moved because now is a ground-breaking time for investment potential in Asian markets. Rogers's first daughter is now being tutored in Mandarin to prepare her for the future. He is quoted as saying: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers</sub>

But,Rick, the quoted wiki text is more about investment opportunities than helping his kids learn "Chinese"l
They speak Cantonese & English in Singapore,not Mandarin!
You can learn Mandarin anywhere.

That is just the incompleteness of Wiki.  If you look at Roger's interviews at Fortune (if I recall, that was where I read that quote) and other sources including TV interviews, you sure will see that he is very hot on learning Chinese for his kids.

Since he has been talking as if Mandarin is it, his staying in Singapore had me puzzled also.  He probably wanted his children to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese.  Cantonese is particularly hard to learn since there is no written form to speak of - except those words both Cantonese and Mandarin share.  The grammatical rules are also difficult to learn without a written form.    While both are tonal language, Mandarin uses 4-tones whereas Cantonese uses 9-tones.

Overall, I would say for business Mandarin is more important than Cantonese long term.

[coppice]

Since he has been talking as if Mandarin is it, his staying in Singapore had me puzzled also.  He probably wanted his children to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese.  Cantonese is particularly hard to learn since there is no written form to speak of - except those words both Cantonese and Mandarin share.  The grammatical rules are also difficult to learn without a written form.    While both are tonal language, Mandarin uses 4-tones whereas Cantonese uses 9-tones.

There is a written form of every Cantonese word, and they are all in the Unicode character set. People do write in Cantonese, but it is considered slangy. The serious news pages of a Hong Kong newspaper is written as if it is Mandarin, even though most readers scan the text as if it is Cantonese. The "trendy" pages of the newspaper are written in pure Cantonese.

[HiTech]

When it comes to your reference equipment, DMMs, Counters, Generators, Power Supplies, Scopes,
concentrate on the quality. Don't be suckers. Quality is directly proportional to cost.
When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, or can prove with specs., warranty, and reputation that they are worth dropping
money on.

I concur with the above statement. Even products from B&K, Sencore, GW, Hitachi, and similar aren't anything to write home about IMHO. It's more the way of service grade/spec caliber stuff.

I too stick w/ the proven heavy hitters- HP, Tek, Datron, Millivac, LeCroy, Phillips/Fluke with some of it synched to a 10Mhz OCXO. My lesser equip. is by Astron, Wavetek, &  similar.

[Rick Law]

Since he has been talking as if Mandarin is it, his staying in Singapore had me puzzled also.  He probably wanted his children to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese.  Cantonese is particularly hard to learn since there is no written form to speak of - except those words both Cantonese and Mandarin share.  The grammatical rules are also difficult to learn without a written form.    While both are tonal language, Mandarin uses 4-tones whereas Cantonese uses 9-tones.

There is a written form of every Cantonese word, and they are all in the Unicode character set. People do write in Cantonese, but it is considered slangy. The serious news pages of a Hong Kong newspaper is written as if it is Mandarin, even though most readers scan the text as if it is Cantonese. The "trendy" pages of the newspaper are written in pure Cantonese.

EDIT:
I decided to remove my reply I first posted to the message above.  In my reply, I disagree that There is a written form of every Cantonese word and I cited some examples like written form of "yesterday" would be spoken entirely different with one non-writable words.

I decided to remove the reply because the words I wrote in Mandarin, while showing up correctly in preview, does not show correctly after I post.  So the reply would have been unreadable.

[vk6zgo]

Jim Rogers, founder/CEO of Quantum Fund, was quoted in Business Week (or Fortune about 10 years ago) "The best gift one can give to their children is the knowledge of Mandarin."   In his New York City penthouse, he hired a Chinese nanny to make sure his kid(s) can speak Chinese.  He later moved to Singapore so his kid(s) can get fluent with Chinese.

Net-net is: If you are just starting your career, going to a community college to sign up for a Chinese course will do you a world of good.

Rick
Quote from Wikipedia:
<sub>"In December 2007, Rogers sold his mansion in New York City for about 16 million USD and moved to Singapore. Rogers claimed that he moved because now is a ground-breaking time for investment potential in Asian markets. Rogers's first daughter is now being tutored in Mandarin to prepare her for the future. He is quoted as saying: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers</sub>

But,Rick, the quoted wiki text is more about investment opportunities than helping his kids learn "Chinese"l
They speak Cantonese & English in Singapore,not Mandarin!
You can learn Mandarin anywhere.

That is just the incompleteness of Wiki.  If you look at Roger's interviews at Fortune (if I recall, that was where I read that quote) and other sources including TV interviews, you sure will see that he is very hot on learning Chinese for his kids.

Since he has been talking as if Mandarin is it, his staying in Singapore had me puzzled also.  He probably wanted his children to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese.  Cantonese is particularly hard to learn since there is no written form to speak of - except those words both Cantonese and Mandarin share.  The grammatical rules are also difficult to learn without a written form.    While both are tonal language, Mandarin uses 4-tones whereas Cantonese uses 9-tones.

Overall, I would say for business Mandarin is more important than Cantonese long term.

Rick,I was wrong,& you & Coppice were right!

I was going by memory----back in the day,most ethnic Chinese people outside China spoke Cantonese,but in Singapore,a concerted effort has been made over many years to promote Mandarin,with the resulf fhat the large majority of people are now Mandarin speakers.(I found this in Wiki)

[Rick Law]

... ...

Rick,I was wrong,& you & Coppice were right!

I was going by memory----back in the day,most ethnic Chinese people outside China spoke Cantonese,but in Singapore,a concerted effort has been made over many years to promote Mandarin,with the resulf fhat the large majority of people are now Mandarin speakers.(I found this in Wiki)

The power of money -- which was I was trying to point out to the OP.  He can yell all he wants about the Chinese, but money talks.  Even in Hong Kong, Mandarin is more common these days.

Chinese certainly have their junk manufacturers, but they have good ones too.  EBay is a big outlet for the cheap stuff which is going to be more low end stuff than high end.  It is like getting things from a factory outlet and complain about things not being ship shape. 

[SeanB]

Chinese is as good as US made for a lot of things, you just cut out 3 markups along the chain. Chinese copy of US stuff is around 10% of the cost, and does the same work and in some cases you get a better product. Yes you do get cost cutting and poor workmanship in places but this is compensated by spare parts being relatively cheap and in most cases you can just copy the copy with a decent machine shop.

[Cside]

The chinese are probably saying the opposite over there "Why buy this overpriced garbage from cut-through westerners when we can make our own?"

[Wytnucls]

Construction and industrial companies in China are no fools, they buy foreign-made quality tools mostly. Check Fluke sales figures for China.

[Terabyte2007]

Being an owner of Agilent, Fluke and Tek products myself, I can tell you that if you do your due diligence and research the Chinese products before buying they can be quite good. There is crap everywhere, not just from China. I have bought items produced here in the US which were horrible. It really depends on the company producing the product, China just happens to be one of the largest producers and exporters of electronics in the world so by the sheer volume of gear hitting the market, you have a better chance of buying junk if your not careful.

[Terabyte2007]

I might also add, a few months back I had purchased a piece of test gear from a Chinese company and the software would not load properly. I contacted them through their website and received an immediate response from an english speaking representative. After a few rounds of exchanged information in an email she had send the report over to a software engineer who had fixed the problem and provided me with a download link for the new software. The whole process only took a few days and most of the time was because of the time differences in response to replies. It was actually a relatively pain free experience. Again, depends on the company and their willingness to provide a quality product and support.

[Rick Law]

I think one of the negative feeling folks feel is subconsciously caused by the wage pressure.  While that is understandable, but it leads to wrong actions.  There is no better way to ensure defeat than to under estimate one's own competition.

We (the "developed nations") foolishly put too many road blocks ahead of ourselves and (particularly the USA) failed to educate our young to the level of competitiveness needed in this world.

Just over a month before the first iPhone was to be released in 2007...   ...And then, with Apple just about to ramp up iPhone production, Steve demanded that the iPhone's screen be replaced with unscratchable glass.

“I want a glass screen," Steve is quoted as saying. "And I want it perfect in six weeks.”

The glass itself would come from Corning, an American company. But the only way for Apple to meet Steve's deadline would be to find an empty glass-cutting factory...    ... and a team of mid-level engineers to figure out how to cut the glass into millions of screens.


And, we also failed to see it is beyond mere labor cost...

As the Apple executives who spoke to Duhigg and Bradsher for their article make clear, there is no way American manufacturing companies could have met this timetable.

The end-to-end process of building the iPhones, Duhigg and Bradsher report, required 8,700 mid-level engineers. In the United States, Apple estimated, it would have taken 9 months to hire this many engineers. In China, it took 15 days.

Even if you put the 8700 engineer issue aside, we (in the "developed world") would still be filling forms in the sixth week instead of being in production already.

Above quotes from Business Insider which was a rehash of NY-Times article from Charles Duhigg and Keith Bradsher.

http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-new-iphone-screen-2012-1

[Kjelt]

The chinese are getting there step by step, Take Oppo for example, they build the best bluray players in the world, better then Denon/Marantz/etc. They are quite expensive also but that is not the point here or was it?

Then there is the market space you want to place your product. Cost vs quality. Did you know that an average B&D electric drill will last 25 hours of drilling and that is not in concrete? With no ballbearings to compensate the vertical forces they are scrap after 40 hours of use. Still hundreds of thousands of household are pleased with them since they only use them 30 minutes a year. Do you need a Hilti costing 50 times as much? Naaaaah.

[dannyf]

a rehash of NY-Times article from Charles Duhigg and Keith Bradsher.

If you want to understand the demise of the developed world, all you need is to read the reader comment section on the story of workers getting up at middle of the night to redo a piece of the assembly process: "I wouldn't never do that", "that's such an abuse", "it is not worth it", ...

We don't have the ability to compete. But (far) more importantly, we don't have the will to compete. That "animal spirit" that propelled our forefathers (and mothers) are not part of today's western culture.

But it is in Asia.

[Kjelt]

But it is in Asia.

Matter of time..... the youth is also getting tired of being drilled
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/879187.shtml

[miguelvp]

But it is in Asia.

Matter of time..... the youth is also getting tired of being drilled
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/879187.shtml

And that's why now they have a predominant middle class.

[Rick Law]

But it is in Asia.

Matter of time..... the youth is also getting tired of being drilled
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/879187.shtml

re: Matter of time..... the youth is also getting tired of being drilled

Of course some are.  First generation build it via hard work, second generation had the experience of seeing how it was done, but third generation got the benefit without even seeing what it took to build it.  If they failed to educate their youth as we had, then their youth will also loose their ability to compete.  They will see themselves decline as we (in the USA) are experiencing right now.

Many if not most youth in the developed world hadn't seen what it took to get to what we have.  Everybody merely wants a piece of the pie but without the slightest of idea of the needs to earn it.  Listen to all the cries about "living wage", did you ever hear about making a contribution worthy of a living wage?

Equal outcome are on of the ideas that China abandoned with Deng Xiaoping ("black cat white cat" quote, and "getting rich is..." ).  And with the Cultural Revolution in far memory, they even stepped back from force volunteerism.  It may even be accurate to say "Send Down Youths" is now a thing of the past.  Whereas, some high schools here in the USA still require "community work", "volunteer points", etc. for graduation.  They are moving away from the failed ideology whereas we are heading deeper into it.

If we don't change course to compete, we can only hope they change course back to non-performance as that would be the only way for us not to be left behind alone.  But having company in a desolate economy still doesn't make it better now, does it?

Rick

[Kjelt]

Well you could argue about what is rewarded in a society.
If I look at it black/white then our societies reward extroverts, people that open their mouth get more then those that follow commands.
However for a society to achieve greatness it also needs people that follow and do the work that needs to be done.
How many captains does a ship need? Then why is our society only stimulating for everybody to become a captain while we have a huge need for great sailors/rowers? Why is it that our society looks down on those sailors and only praises captains? That is the pitfall imho for china.

[Rick Law]

Well you could argue about what is rewarded in a society.
If I look at it black/white then our societies reward extroverts, people that open their mouth get more then those that follow commands.
However for a society to achieve greatness it also needs people that follow and do the work that needs to be done.
How many captains does a ship need? Then why is our society only stimulating for everybody to become a captain while we have a huge need for great sailors/rowers? Why is it that our society looks down on those sailors and only praises captains? That is the pitfall imho for china.

Your point makes perfect sense.  Unfortunately, I don't think it is "society looks down on those sailors and only praises captains" that is a problem.  The problem is when sailors want the cabin of the captain, want the perks of the captain, and want the wage of the captain.  That is what cause the system breaks down.

When regardless of how much contribution you make and you are given the same reward (equal outcome), inevitably, very few will work hard.  There will not be enough to sustain a society when too few are working hard.  We are not all like oil rich Kuwait - they can all sit back and just let the oil flow and money come in.  We like most societies must earn to sustain our society.  Therefore, in my view, deference must be given to those who earn.

[markce]

With a drive from only short term shareholder value, western companies have their expensive products
manufactured in Chinese plants, and educate them in the process.
Now Chinese are starting to seriously compete at a much lower price point. We asked for it, and we have no
answers yet.
As a customer, if I neglect the super cheap stuff, I can buy good functional products, free shipping from China at a fraction of
the price western shops are asking for the same (maybe rebranded) products.

Base line - we are giving away our engineering.

[microe]

Chinese Junk

OK. let me have it!

the biggest chinese junk was to borrow lend US of Idiocracy about 1.2 trillion $, and then to hear how crap china and how great US  are

can't agree anymore!          I think the topic beginner should learn some basic economics first. 

[vk6zgo]

The chinese are getting there step by step, Take Oppo for example, they build the best bluray players in the world, better then Denon/Marantz/etc. They are quite expensive also but that is not the point here or was it?

Then there is the market space you want to place your product. Cost vs quality. Did you know that an average B&D electric drill will last 25 hours of drilling and that is not in concrete? With no ballbearings to compensate the vertical forces they are scrap after 40 hours of use. Still hundreds of thousands of household are pleased with them since they only use them 30 minutes a year. Do you need a Hilti costing 50 times as much? Naaaaah.

Ball bearings are mass produced in the tens of millions for Automotive use,in China & everywhere else.
Do you really think two bearings would take the price up to Hilti levels?

This is an example of my problem with some Chinese products.
They do dumb things------not so much for the cost savings,as by not making the proper decisions,& end up losing sales.
This is not peculiar to China----many countries over the years have ruined perfectly good products for the same reason.

Black & Decker have been like this for years,however,so this is probably driven by them,rather than the Chinese factory.

.

[janekm]

I noticed something interesting in tools shops in Shenzhen, which is emblematic of the attitude of Chinese factories to the tools they use themselves:
The most expensive version of a (steel) tool is from Germany; the second most expensive from Japan; and the third is Chinese for internal sale. How do you tell a Chinese tool made for the internal market? It is marked something like "Sidanli - USA", hence making abundantly clear that it is not suitable for export, I presume (actually Taiwanese tools also get a look-in).

Similarly, while looking for a meter with a quick conductivity test, the seller suggested that if I want that I want a "Fluuuku" (Chinese pronunciation of Fluke )

[Kjelt]

Do you really think two bearings would take the price up to Hilti levels?

Ofcourse not, but I noticed in practice with relatives that this is the first thing that breaks down, the motor is also cheap, the gears etc. etc. It was designed for a couple of tens of hours while the Hilti or Festool was designed to last years each day 8 hours at the jobsite.