Chinese Junk-a Provocative Challenge. Give your best shot!

[Wuerstchenhund]

For all you know he has been in electronics longer than you or me.

Has he? More than 3 decades? Of course I can't say as I don't know him personally (or you, for that matter) so I can't say (although his displayed attitude suggest him being closer to teenager age). Of course neither microe nor you know me so you don't know how how long I've been in electronics either. But then all that doesn't as this isn't about electronics or technology at all. It's bloody obvious you didn't get that.

And following microe's silly logic that you shouldn't critizise something because "people have worked hard" to make it would essentially mean that Dave should stop doing his review and teardown videos as I'm sure that "hard work" went into many devices he labelled as "crap" in these videos. Many people watch these videos because they enjoy the way Dave presents, at least I do. I'm also not sure I would enjoy them as much if Dave changed to "clean language". Of course I can only assume that microe will petition Dave to stop "talking down" kit in his videos, too. Because complaining about someone labelling some kit as "crap" on a forum operated by someone who makes a living from making videos which do occasionally the same would be pretty hypocritical.

And as you and I are, entitled to voice his opinion.

Of course he is. However, there is a difference between voicing your opinion and forcing your opinion on others. For example, I don't agree with some (several, actually) things you say, but I will not tell you to stop saying these things.

And if you want to sling insults at TE

Who or what is "TE"?

and pricing, check this out:
http://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-oscilloscopes/7158686/
$1500 for an now old base design that your mentioned $400 Siglent might show up.

Congratulation for not absolutely not getting the point this was about!    Or else you might explain what this Tektronix scope has to do with the fact that LeCroy oversells Siglent scopes.

And if you treat newbies in this sort of fashion, you might be the one seeking "a place that better fits your expectations".

As I said, I may not like your opinion but I will not stop you from voicing it, in fact if necessary would fight even for you to make sure you are able to exercise this basic right. This is obviously a bit different than what microe does, trying to tell people what they should say and what not.  But I'm not really expecting you to get the difference either.

Now, can we finally return to discussing stuff that's actual on-topic?

[SL4P]

Having worked with the highest levels of 'pro' gear, and the lowest consumer / hobby components and equipment, Asian sourced product is no different than any first-world source.  Africa will soon be chasing that retail manufacturing segment to keep profit margins alive.

Investors and managers want to squeeze every cent out of costs/profitability, and the only observable difference is the execution of manufacture and assembly.  Source QA, processes and assembly/QC are extremely variable if not planned and managed well (these are seen as costs).  If the design is fundamentally correct, and these QA/QC processes are in place - China & Asia are easily capable of producing and delivering top class product.  This can be seen in 90% of our consumer and pro-sumer technology products.

However, to achieve the price/benefit required by those invisible investors & managers - someone in the chain has to 'look the other way' on environmental and employee welfare issues.

[Wuerstchenhund]

If the design is fundamentally correct, and these QA/QC processes are in place - China & Asia are easily capable of producing and delivering top class product.

Indeed. It doesn't really matter *where* something is manufactured, what matters are design properties and QA/QC processes.

Maybe we're a bit too fixated on where something is made, when we should look closer to who makes it.

However, to achieve the price/benefit required by those invisible investors & managers - someone in the chain has to 'look the other way' on environmental and employee welfare issues.

How true, and not only for Asia. For example, while the poor working conditions in Foxconn plants in China are well known, it seems the situation for Foxconn workers in the Czech Republic (a EU member country) isn't that much better.

But I guess that's the result when the company aim is no longer the product but to provide maximum profit to its shareholders.

[Kjelt]

what matters are design properties and QA/QC processes.

The first I agree totally with the latter can be complete bullshit to satisfy some norms but says nothing about the actual quality (the parameters) that are checked. I had the same discussion about software quality (cmmi) process, yeah if you document your software for instance you fullfill some criteria in that process but it says nothing about the quality of the software itself which can be total crap (as toyota proved in the last years).

[Wuerstchenhund]

what matters are design properties and QA/QC processes.

The first I agree totally with the latter can be complete bullshit to satisfy some norms but says nothing about the actual quality (the parameters) that are checked.

Well, QA and QC only serve to make sure that defined parameters and standards which are defined in the design properties are met. You're right that even a perfect QA/QC process can result in parameters that are crap, but that is then a problem of wrong design properties.

I disagree that QA/QC are BS, I believe they are very valuable tools that (like any other tool) can be a huge benefit if used right. The real problem are people who wrongly believe that QA/QC are there to come up with proper design parameters, and then blame the processes when it's actually the original design that is shit.

I had the same discussion about software quality (cmmi) process, yeah if you document your software for instance you fullfill some criteria in that process but it says nothing about the quality of the software itself which can be total crap (as toyota proved in the last years)

CMMI is the same, it only serves to check that predefined parameters are met. If these parameters are shit then this is because the relevant parts of the design are crap.

In case of Toyota, from my limited knowledge of the facts it seems that exactly that was the case.

[microe]

Yeah, well, even scammers put in hard work, so saying you shouldn't critizise the result because of that is stupid, really, as it means with that argument you're never allowed to critizise anything or anyone, ever.

As to the WaveAce Series, it's not that LeCroy puts much effort into them, as all the hardware and software comes from Siglent.


But all this aside: I don't know how it is in your country but in most of the countries the people here come from freedom of speech is a very essential pillar of society, and your attempt to force your own moral values on others and to censor other opinions can be seen as crossing a line of being offensive. Words like "crap" and "shit" as a description of equipment make regular appearance in this forum (try a search if you don't believe me), and people here take it as it is - an expression of opinion. This community thrives because members are free to express themselves as long as certain (legal) boundaries are not exceeded.

However, it's pretty offensive not only to me but also to the whole EEV community when a newbie like you expects that everyone follows your personal sensibilities and moral values. So I suggest you either adapt or find some other place which better fits your expectations. Either way, it's not your business how I express my opinion.

First , I am in a free country, so I am so sure you do have the right to use "crap" or "shit" to express your opinion. But I also have right to say "please stop ..." for that I am just express my opinion, not want to force you to accept my opinion(in fact, you didn't be affected by my words right?). It is OK for you to go on with these words.  It is not about age or country, but I will never say these words to make fun of others. (For this topic beginner, I don't like to add a "junk" after ones country. US junk? Britain junk? Add your own country name before that word, does it sounds good? I have used both Rigol and SIGLENT products, just for some normal measurements, they are not such crappy.)

Second, when you comes to someone didn't like your express way, do you always like to ask them to go away and play themselves? I will not, in fact, I will get used to your way and will never ask you to go somewhere else.

Third, I didn't know how do you know the WaveACE comes from SIGLENT1000CML. If you have problem with the price, go with the LeCroy but not SIGLENT.  About the video you referred to(if WaveACE really is 1000CML),I have borrowed a SDS1204CFL(though not CML), do the same thing did by the author, but that problem didn't accur(the timebase is OK). Have you seen that problem both on 1000CML and WaveACE by yourself?

Fourth, may be I did something wrong, for that I shouldn't talk about things not related to oscilloscopes in this forum. I have no meaning to offend you, I just express my opinion in a way you didn't like.

Finally, you said I didn't get your point, maybe. But you may don't get my points too. We have different logic, you think I am offensive, while I think you are.. |Oso it is meaningless to talk about this anymore. But I will still stay in this forum to learn something. And I will accept your way too.

[Rick Law]

...

...

But I guess that's the result when the company aim is no longer the product but to provide maximum profit to its shareholders.

"To provide maximum profit to its shareholders" should be the primary objective of any "for profit" company.  If not that, what is the point of a for profit company?  And if they are not a for-profit company, then they better make it well know that this company is not in it for for money before they list their stock in the stock exchange.

The stock holders buys your stock with the expectation that their retirement nest egg grow.  It is the fiduciary duty of the management of said company to make the most profitable decision possible for those who entrusted the management team with their money.

Making quality product is but one mean to making quality profit.

[Wuerstchenhund]

For this topic beginner, I don't like to add a "junk" after ones country. US junk? Britain junk? Add your own country name before that word, does it sounds good?

It doesn't sound good but it describes the truth. The UK has certainly produced more than their fair share of crap products, as has the US. I've also seen crap made in Germany. So what?

Crap products are made in every country. However, the fact remains that today China is one of the largest (if not the largest) producer of cheap crap. A few decades ago it was Japan, which later has evolved as a producer of high quality and high precision products. China certainly will evolve as well (first signs are visible, as chinese manufacturers start turning away from producing for the lowest possible price only towards higher quality stuff). I guess in 10 years chinese kit will be regarded as high quality as well. But not today.

Second, when you comes to someone didn't like your express way, do you always like to ask them to go away and play themselves?

I didn't *ask* you to go away (it was you who was making demands as to what others should or should not do, remember?), I merely suggested that if you can't accept the tone in here that somewhere else might be a better place for you, because this place is unlikely to follow your demands re "clean" language.

And it really does make you look like a hypocrite to come to a forum and complain about people labelling stuff as "crap" when this very forum is operated by a guy who makes a living from doing exactly that on video to a large audience.

I have no meaning to offend you, I just express my opinion in a way you didn't like.

No problem with expressing your opinion. Just stop telling others what they should or shouldn't say. Remember, it's Dave's turf, not yours (or mine).

But I'd say we leave it at that and come to something more on-topic:

Third, I didn't know how do you know the WaveACE comes from SIGLENT1000CML.

It's a well known secret that the LeCroy WaveAce Series are Siglent scopes. The original WaveAce 100 Series were Siglent SDS1000CM scopes, and the current the WaveAce 1000 and 2000 Series are Siglent SDS1000CML and SDS1000CFL scopes. All made by Siglent for LeCroy, as confirmed by various sources (incl. LeCroy themselves). In fact, even the firmware is made by Siglent, LeCroy merely provides the name. You can even flash the LeCroy firmware on the equivalent Siglent device.

LeCroy does the same with the WaveStation waveform generators which are rebadged Siglent SDG1000 and SDG5000 devices.

About the video you referred to (if WaveACE really is 1000CML)

The video shows a WaveAce 100 which is a SDS1000CM not CML.

I have borrowed a SDS1204CFL(though not CML), do the same thing did by the author, but that problem didn't accur(the timebase is OK). Have you seen that problem both on 1000CML and WaveACE by yourself?

The problem didn't occur because you used a SDS1000CFL (a different scope) which is much newer than the SDS1000CM. These problems have been fixed in the newer scopes.

But yes, I have seen the original problem on the WaveAce a customer in continental Europe bought at that time, and on a Siglent SDS1000CM.

Don't get me wrong, the Siglent SDS1000CNL/CML scopes are nice products for very cheap low-end scopes made by and sold under the name of a chinese manufacturer. I also don't think they're crap (although I've seen some nasty bugs and do find the UI horrible at times) because they cost very little money and are solid enough for beginners as a first scope. Nothing wrong with that (or the very limited functionality) under these circumstances.

However, the WaveAce 1000 carries the label and the price tag of a big name manufacturer. The bugs in the Siglent scopes can easily be forgiven for a low-cost scope from a chinese manufacturer like Siglent, but they are simply not acceptable for a product from a reputable brand like LeCroy, and especially not when their variant is at least 4x as much as the Siglent original. At that price, the WaveAce doesn't compete with the Siglent SDS1000 Series or the Rigol DS1000z or the cheap Owon scopes or other cheap scopes, it competes with more expensive scopes like the Rigol DS2000 or Agilent DSOX2000, and has to be measured by that standard. And by that standard, and considering the price, the WaveAce Series is crap, plain and simple.

And I'm certainly not alone with that opinion. For example, the customer who bought several of the WaveAce scopes was so dissatisfied that they won't consider LeCroy for anything else. Which is a shame as they do make great high end scopes (the best ones in my opinion), but because of LeCroy's stupid move to oversell Siglent scopes the customer now buys its high end kit from Agilent and R&S.

[SL4P]

what matters are design properties and QA/QC processes.

... I had the same discussion about software quality (cmmi) process, yeah if you document your software for instance you fullfill some criteria in that process but it says nothing about the quality of the software itself which can be total crap (as toyota proved in the last years).

This leads to a parallel discussion of -
Software vs hardware ! 
Design vs implementation quailty.
I had this conversation about ten years ago - about 'task programmers', and 'creative programmers'.
Task programmers have no idea what they're programming - they're given a spec and API - then have to meet the criteria of C = A+B within x microseconds.
Creative programmers (formerly 'analysts') - interpret the workflow requirements, and design the blocks based on 'higher knowledge' - then prepare the API and I/O parameters for the the project manager to share out among the task programmers.
This model was the precursor to 'outsourcing' the task programming...
Until the bean counters started outsourcing the creative role- with that inevitable disconnect between the spec, design and the actual product result.
But they save money.

[Wuerstchenhund]

"To provide maximum profit to its shareholders" should be the primary objective of any "for profit" company.

No, it shouldn't. Profit should be the *result* of a proper business, *not* the objective.

It may be the primary objective for an individual to work in a certain business and do a certain job, but it should not be the main objective for a company.

If not that, what is the point of a for profit company?

In simpke terms, the primary objective of a business should be to satisfy the identifed market demand (i.e. the demand for low cost scopes suitable for beginners in Electronics). If the projected demand does exist, if the product satisfies that demand appropriately and if the cost base is sound (i.e producing at lowest costs possible without impacting the product's suitability for the target market while selling at the highest price possible without hampering sales) then the products will sell and the result is profit. Profit which then is at least partially re-invested to either increase the market share in existing markets (for example going international) or to expand to other markets where appropriate demand was identified. If profits made exceed the need for investment then the difference can be distributed to shareholders.

I admit that this is a more traditional approach (as is the idea that a business does fullfill a social role aside from providing work and paying its staff, i.e. by providing training opportunities like apprenticeships or contributing to the cost of infrastructure). Nowadays things are a bit different, following a sickly twisted system where the result (profit) became the new and sole prime objective, with everything else (i.e. the product, the market, the customer, the staff) subordinated.

The recent global economical predicament is more or less as result of this shift.

The stock holders buys your stock with the expectation that their retirement nest egg grow.  It is the fiduciary duty of the management of said company to make the most profitable decision possible for those who entrusted the management team with their money.

The role of shareholders should be to provide capital to a business so that it can grow. They should invest because they believe in the business and want it to succeed. Of course shareholders should also be able to expect to be rewarded if the business they invested in is successful. But again, this reward should be the result of a successful business, not a company's prime objective. And the payout of this reward should be well behind a company's need for further investment (investments should not be curtailed in favor of shareholder rewards).

Again, I admit that this is a more traditional view. In our sickly modern-day economy however, Share Holders are just more snouts in the through to skim what's coming out of a business. Because the prime objective is now maximizing shareholder rewards (personal enrichment) and not satisfying market demand, all other factors (i.e. products) are adjusted to serve this higher goal of feeding the snouts. The results are that investments are only made if they provide a quick return (little to no long-term investments in employee training, basic research and other things which will only be profitable in the long-term future), the squeezing of wages, short-term contracts and regular shedding of workforce.

The primary objective of feeding the snouts also means avoiding as much tax obligations as possible, which essentially means taking out money that should go towards infrastructure (schools, roads, railways etc) and other things which benefits the business and to which it is supposed to contribute through tax.

Again, the effects of this sick system can be seen on the current economic crisis.

[dannyf]

Profit should be the *result* of a proper business, *not* the objective.

Everyone should be happy;

Everyone should have a good life;

Everyone should have health;

Everyone should enjoy peace;

Everyone should be nice to others;

..

Unfortunately, not everyone lives in utopia.

Obviously, you are free to set up a proper business where profit is not the objective.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Obviously, you are free to set up a proper business where profit is not the objective.

Well I did, more than once btw (and am still reaping the benefits). Actually, there are many SMB (Small and Medium sized Businesses) who do exactly that - putting the product, the customer and the market as prime business objective, and treating profits for what they are: the results of a sound business. Few of them are stock listed, although many do have investors (who invest because they want to see the business succeed long-term and not to gain a quick fix). They rarely bring their money off-shore or engage in tax avoidance schemes, which of course puts them at a disadvantage, but interestingly, these businesses have also shown more general resiliency to economic decline than your average vulture-controlled public enterprise. Not that this matters for the latter, though, as the vultures always have their golden parachute at hand to save their bacon. It only affects the average worker, but frankly who cares about him. Let the state take care of them.

[Rubi Han]

After being in the electronics industry for 30 years:

I've learned a few things by buying cheap crap(knowingly/and not) from China.

1. Crappy documentation and no schematics=unrepairable, uncalibratable.

2. Buy a piece of test equipment=bad support, no support.

3. If the the asians could make a DMM as good in Every Way
as a Fluke 87-V for 100USD less, why can't they? Prove to me
this is NOT true.  Show me your homework!

4. Most of the Chinese branded components have no real Web presence,
no guaranteed specs, and no warranties.

I'm not against buying "no brand"parts from Asia, but caveat emptor!
Do your homework and know who you are buying from.

When it comes to your reference equipment, DMMs, Counters, Generators, Power Supplies, Scopes,
concentrate on the quality. Don't be suckers. Quality is directly proportional to cost.
When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, or can prove with specs., warranty, and reputation that they are worth dropping
money on.


OK. let me have it!

It seems you have much prejudice about China. The problem exist, but hope you can be more objective.

Next time, you may choose our products 'Micsig', good quality, fair price. WWw.micsig.com

[Rick Law]

Obviously, you are free to set up a proper business where profit is not the objective.

Well I did, more than once btw (and am still reaping the benefits). Actually, there are many SMB (Small and Medium sized Businesses) who do exactly that - putting the product, the customer and the market as prime business objective, and treating profits for what they are: the results of a sound business. Few of them are stock listed, although many do have investors (who invest because they want to see the business succeed long-term and not to gain a quick fix). They rarely bring their money off-shore or engage in tax avoidance schemes, which of course puts them at a disadvantage, but interestingly, these businesses have also shown more general resiliency to economic decline than your average vulture-controlled public enterprise. Not that this matters for the latter, though, as the vultures always have their golden parachute at hand to save their bacon. It only affects the average worker, but frankly who cares about him. Let the state take care of them.

That is the "case and point" of the beauty of a free society.

Most folks would like to see the retirement saving grow.  Some folks will go to the extend of giving up some of their resources for good courses such as charity, some folks will go to the extend of "doing anything for the money" within the confines of the laws.

(Not to say I am right, but I worked in both continents for a time)  The big difference between USA and Europe I've observed:

(1) Some Europeans thinks the reason a business exist is to provide employment.  We Americans on the other hand view (viewed) it different.  Most folks starts a company or invest in one not to hire their fellow Americans but instead to make money from their fellow Americans and fellow earth-links.

(2) A recent survey (forgot source) summarized what I personally observed but could not verbalize until I read it: Most Europeans think it is okay to do something when there is a law permitting them to do such something, whatever it may be.  Most Americans think it is okay to do something unless there is a law preventing them from doing it.

That leads to another "case and point" of the beauty of a free society: You can spend your money the way you wish.  One can spend the least to buy something just to have it, or spend as much as you possibly can just to have it.

Rick

[nctnico]

It seems you have much prejudice about China. The problem exist, but hope you can be more objective.

Next time, you may choose our products 'Micsig', good quality, fair price. WWw.micsig.com

If you want to push your products make sure people can actually buy them. At least post a pricelist and a list with dealers in the 'buy/sell/wanted section'. Your tablet scope looks good to me but unable to get solid specifications and a price I choose to spend my money on a different oscilloscope.

[dannyf]

Well I did,

Good for you. Maybe you should hire 10 more or 1 thousand more "average workers" to make a better product. Loses be damned, :0)

vultures

You could be a lot more convincing if you didn't demonized others just because they operate under a different but equally legal philosophy.

Respect diversity.

[SL4P]

Well I did,

You could be a lot more convincing if you didn't demonized others just because they operate under a different but equally legal philosophy.

Respect diversity.

Sadly, this is where our free, democratic, guided capitalist society has brought us over the last 60 years.

Politicians operate 'out of sight' legally, corporations operate 'under the table' legally, even simple fraudsters operate their rorts legally - yet they are also permitted to hide and divert immoral earnings and profits legally.

It's ok, we're doing this for your benefit and protection.

Something even scarier...  In most sophisticated legal jurisdictions, it's illegal to set up an independent auditor of these bodies / activities without their approval!

[Rick Law]

...
Politicians operate 'out of sight' legally, corporations operate 'under the table' legally, even simple fraudsters operate their rorts legally - yet they are also permitted to hide and divert immoral earnings and profits legally.
...

If a politician is bad, throw them out of office.  It may sound simple, but it is a harder tasks than it should be.  It may take a while, and it may take a lot of work, but for a society to survive, the politicians in that society must be disposable.

If there is something wrong with the law, the law can be fixed via legal processes.

A nation has to take in some revenue.  The less it tax the productive sectors, the more it encourages productivity and reduces cheat.  However low it goes, there will always be some finding it too high.  It is the challenge for the politicians to arrive at a point where it encourage productivity and discourages cheating, but yet keeping the nation competitive.

Case and point: We in the USA has the highest corporate tax in the western world.  We are becoming less and less competitive.  We are paying the price for it.  Even Burger King just announced the move to Canada.  The most recent (last week) Labor Statistic report from our own government shows it.  92 million US adults not working and labor participation is at a 36 year low.  92 million - that is a mind boggling number.

[SL4P]

Veering wildly off topic...
If the population of country x is increasing, government and business are becoming more efficient, on the same gross revenue rates... why do they need to 'find' more money to break even in public spending?

It seems to me that if everything goes up by (say) 5% per year, then the status quo remains the same if other revenue raising, or the tax rate remains the same.

OK, so we want to move 'forward', or in pollie-speak, 'grow' by 5% per year.
That requires efficiency gains of 5% pa, above the status-quo remaining stable at 5% increase per year.

You might argue that we want a 'new airport', or 'highway system', and schools / hoispitals that requires an injection of funds...  we built airports, roads and hospitals on the original balance sheet.  What has changed - other than public administration becoming less efficient, or greedier?

We have used Public/Private partnerships to raise tolls, or rents for development, yet we get the same results as the old 'poorly managed' past at a higher nett cost!.

Perhaps we need less managers and more do-ers!

[nctnico]

Actually the quality of a product doesn't even matter. What matters is the ability to make people want that product. Microsoft and Apple are fine examples of making boat loads of money from crappy (unfinished) products. If you make the perfect product you never sell the next version.

[SL4P]

Two words come to mind.
SHEEPLE, and rampant CONSUMPTION

Or perhaps the blind leading the blind?

[marmad]

If you want to push your products make sure people can actually buy them. At least post a pricelist and a list with dealers in the 'buy/sell/wanted section'. Your tablet scope looks good to me but unable to get solid specifications and a price I choose to spend my money on a different oscilloscope.

I may have a Micsig MSO210T or MS510IS for review shortly - they're just starting to get them out to some EU dealers.

[miguelvp]

Morton Controls (now Emtesco?) has some available.

https://www.mortoncontrols.com/index.php/oscilloscopes/handheld.html

[Co6aka]

Two words come to mind ... Or perhaps the blind leading the blind?

Nah, it's those steal-thy HABERDASHERS with their steal-thy undergarments... when the tide goes out we'll see who's been swimming naked! 

IOU that inherently devalues over time, and eventually to its intrinsic value.

How can you contradict yourself in two consecutive sentences?

  If by "two consecutive sentences" you're referring to the part of one sentence you quoted, then I gather you believe the intrinsic value of a unit of currency is its face value...? Intrinsic value is the value of the material the unit of currency is composed of, which for paper currency is the paper it's printed on. For coinage, it's the value of the metal. For a deposit account... well, maybe ask a Cypriot to tell you.

(Research and study why this is so.)

Sure. That's why such research / study are wrong.

Evidence, facts, and history are irrelevant if people choose to ignore them. The most important lesson history teaches is that people haven't learned much from history.

Now where's that bloomin' POPCORN smilie!!!   

[nctnico]

If you want to push your products make sure people can actually buy them. At least post a pricelist and a list with dealers in the 'buy/sell/wanted section'. Your tablet scope looks good to me but unable to get solid specifications and a price I choose to spend my money on a different oscilloscope.

I may have a Micsig MSO210T or MS510IS for review shortly - they're just starting to get them out to some EU dealers.

That would be cool. I'm definitely looking forward to that!