Chinese Junk-a Provocative Challenge. Give your best shot!

[creepyoldenj]

After being in the electronics industry for 30 years:

I've learned a few things by buying cheap crap(knowingly/and not) from China.

1. Crappy documentation and no schematics=unrepairable, uncalibratable.

2. Buy a piece of test equipment=bad support, no support.

3. If the the asians could make a DMM as good in Every Way
as a Fluke 87-V for 100USD less, why can't they? Prove to me
this is NOT true.  Show me your homework!

4. Most of the Chinese branded components have no real Web presence,
no guaranteed specs, and no warranties.

I'm not against buying "no brand"parts from Asia, but caveat emptor!
Do your homework and know who you are buying from.

When it comes to your reference equipment, DMMs, Counters, Generators, Power Supplies, Scopes,
concentrate on the quality. Don't be suckers. Quality is directly proportional to cost.
When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, or can prove with specs., warranty, and reputation that they are worth dropping
money on.


OK. let me have it!

[dannyf]

When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, ...

I am not sure. I mean, if you are really serious about your "serious electronics bench", why would you let Fluke, Tek or Agilent ... stuff get there? If you didn't spend $205 million or more on a 10cm pure oxygen wire, another $78.2 trillion contract to NASA to hire 104,000 Harvard educated MBA, MIT-trained electronics PhD and Stanford-graduated electronics engineering wonks for your custom-designed and one-of-a-kind multimeter, you don't deserve to call your electronics bench "serious".

So you need to be seriously serious.

[creepyoldenj]

Purely on logic you found a flaw in my rhetoric. But you must know what I'm getting at?

[all_repair]

Maybe spend a few years learning Chinese and another a few learning the eco system, you shall be rewarded.  After a year or 2 learning part of the eco system, I can tell you there are gems.  I don't know about Fluke 87 as I already got a few I did not look around for them.   

[miguelvp]

Every piece of electronic equipment I purchase now comes from China, even non electronics, but it all seems to be working just fine, sure there are a lot of QA problems out there but that's not the norm. And as a new contender and the only remaining superpower other than the US I wouldn't hate much on them. Assuming their engineers are less than the western world ones is something you don't want to put to a test. They might not get us or communicate well with us, but the sure have the knowledge and workforce.

[creepyoldenj]

What does learning Chinese and the "eco" systen have to do with it"
The Chinese are selling to a non Chinese market and they want our money.
They have to EARN IT. This is about getting a good product for a fair price.
Chinese=state controlled capitalism.

[larry42]

My motto: don't buy crap. It's bad for the environment, and I can't stand knowing that charlatans profit.

Instead of buying that cheap POS - save up or just don't buy it. I will buy things from companies like Rigol or Uni-T because they at least have some level of QA. No way I'm giving my cash to the junk sold on deal extreme etc..


Sent using Tapatalk

[creepyoldenj]

Rigol is relatively better. But manuals and docs still substandard. Uni-T, heard good and bad.
You pays your money, you takes your chances with obscure 3rd world companies.

[all_repair]

What does learning Chinese and the "eco" systen have to do with it"
The Chinese are selling to a non Chinese market and they want our money.
They have to EARN IT. This is about getting a good product for a fair price.
Chinese=state controlled capitalism.

The traders are interested to earn from you.  The good-and-cheap makers have more than enough to sell internally.  And the traders are selling the worst lots to you (some even are clearly labeled as reject on the China market).   If you can't speak the language, these engineers are just like people here that are proud of their work and efforts, and would not want to sell to you and risk having the reputation tarnished.

[PedroDaGr8]

3. If the the asians could make a DMM as good in Every Way
as a Fluke 87-V for 100USD less, why can't they? Prove to me
this is NOT true.  Show me your homework!

Since you mention Aisans in the generic sense, the Taiwanese (AND are technically Chinese either of origin or period depending on who you ask) can step up to the plate. Have you seen the Brymen B869? This meter goes toe to toe with the 87V at every level, often beating it and ay $50-100 cheaper depending on your source for each of the meters. Pretty much everything Brymen makes is solid.

From Uni-T the recently announced UT171 and UT181 models appear to be VERY solid and capable.

[Rick Law]

What does learning Chinese and the "eco" systen have to do with it"
The Chinese are selling to a non Chinese market and they want our money.
They have to EARN IT. This is about getting a good product for a fair price.
Chinese=state controlled capitalism.

When it was time for me to choose for my daughter which "foreign language course" she should be taking at school, I looked up Fortune Magazine's "Fortune 100".  Those domiciled in English speaking lands dominates, but second was toss up between French, German and Chinese.  Given the trajectory, Chinese would have been an easy choice.  But neither German nor Chinese was offer at her school.  So French was it.

Today, China (Shanghai), China Hong Kong, Korea dominate the (international high school test) PISA scores with the three of them trading the top-spot last few years.  We (USA) barely rank top 30.  I suspect in the not too distant future, where ever you are in the world, you would be at a disadvantage with your career if you don't know Chinese.  It is not just the technology industry; (From BBC) BMW already sold more in China than in the USA.  In the hotel and luxury goods business, you would be as disadvantaged as like not knowing English in the 1970's. 
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/10/uk-bmw-china-idUKBREA090AI20140110

Jim Rogers, founder/CEO of Quantum Fund, was quoted in Business Week (or Fortune about 10 years ago) "The best gift one can give to their children is the knowledge of Mandarin."   In his New York City penthouse, he hired a Chinese nanny to make sure his kid(s) can speak Chinese.  He later moved to Singapore so his kid(s) can get fluent with Chinese.

Net-net is: If you are just starting your career, going to a community college to sign up for a Chinese course will do you a world of good.

Rick

Quote from Wikipedia:
<sub>"In December 2007, Rogers sold his mansion in New York City for about 16 million USD and moved to Singapore. Rogers claimed that he moved because now is a ground-breaking time for investment potential in Asian markets. Rogers's first daughter is now being tutored in Mandarin to prepare her for the future. He is quoted as saying: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers</sub>

[alexwhittemore]

You seem to be roundly ignoring that virtually all of the name-brand, top-shelf quality equipment you're talking about is Asian-sourced. Not necessarily in its totality - much of it is designed by engineers in the US or Europe then manufactured there. But plenty of it is Asian, top to bottom. Point being, if you're an Asian OEM designing and building scopes, do you sell them as white-label rebranded units to Agilent, or do you try to sell them under your own no-name brand for way less money? Duh.

[VK5RC]

I think you (OP)  need to read some history,  even I can recall in the 70s Japan products were similar to today's Chinese products 'Jap cr#p'  was the term,  now their QA is at the top.  I have also bought some pretty poor quality stuff from other countries as well! 
Either way a good stirring topic!

[Yago]

Every country has crap manufacturers, products and sellers.
The proportions shift with time and marketplace, but it is far from any nations speciality.

As always the onus is on the buyer to be smart and do the homework first, never ruling out used market for old goldies etc.

[vk6zgo]

Jim Rogers, founder/CEO of Quantum Fund, was quoted in Business Week (or Fortune about 10 years ago) "The best gift one can give to their children is the knowledge of Mandarin."   In his New York City penthouse, he hired a Chinese nanny to make sure his kid(s) can speak Chinese.  He later moved to Singapore so his kid(s) can get fluent with Chinese.

Net-net is: If you are just starting your career, going to a community college to sign up for a Chinese course will do you a world of good.

Rick
Quote from Wikipedia:
<sub>"In December 2007, Rogers sold his mansion in New York City for about 16 million USD and moved to Singapore. Rogers claimed that he moved because now is a ground-breaking time for investment potential in Asian markets. Rogers's first daughter is now being tutored in Mandarin to prepare her for the future. He is quoted as saying: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers</sub>

But,Rick, the quoted wiki text is more about investment opportunities than helping his kids learn "Chinese"l
They speak Cantonese & English in Singapore,not Mandarin!
You can learn Mandarin anywhere.

[coppice]

They speak Cantonese & English in Singapore,not Mandarin!
You can learn Mandarin anywhere.

Are you confusing Singapore with Hong Kong? There is a lot more Mandarin than Cantonese used in Singapore.

[Warhawk]

My motto: don't buy crap. It's bad for the environment, and I can't stand knowing that charlatans profit.

Instead of buying that cheap POS - save up or just don't buy it. I will buy things from companies like Rigol or Uni-T because they at least have some level of QA. No way I'm giving my cash to the junk sold on deal extreme etc..


Sent using Tapatalk

That is exactly my attitude as well ! I hate when people , usually bored at night or at work (!), buying crap from DX or ebay just for "fun" and because it is cheap. Then they receive an item, find out that it's useless and throw it away. I've seen it a million times... This waste of money and a waste production is really ridiculous.  I don't care about their money but I do care about the environment.

The second thing is a quality itself. Eg. a flashlight supplied with a 230V AC charger without any transformer and proper isolation is something I can not tolerate.
Couple months ago we tried to reuse some common choke from cheap ATX power supply and found out that there is a paper inside, instead of cooper.

And people are still buying that crap in huge amounts , cargo ships and planes are shuttling back and forth and the mother Earth is being polluted by a products which have never had any value since they were produced.

[tautech]

Well I'm old enough to remember the quality goods that came from the western world and the rubbish that at the same time came from Japan. In my early life there where no consumer goods ex China, then rubbish goods, until today when we are starting to see some really good stuff.
With the wide and varied interests I have, I often see Chinese goods made for well established western companies that must have to meet those companies QC for them to even consider risking their reputations.
So I go searching for the Asian source of those re-branded goods and it often takes weeks of searching off and on to find them, but what a goldmine when you do.
How they make stuff for so little staggers me.
But take a punt, get a product and put it through it's paces, you could be shocked as to the quality.
Never world beating, but very fit for purpose.
Often they are not great marketeers of their products, but once contact is made they are good to deal with.
Like it or lump it, the Chinese are to be a bigger part of our lives looking forward.

[dannyf]

Purely on logic you found a flaw in my rhetoric. But you must know what I'm getting at?

It probably has more to do with common sense.

Two points for you to consider:

1) one man's treasury vs. another's trash: what's "junk" is highly subjective, both in time, space and person. Fluke may be the be-all-and-end-all for you. It is trash to someone somewhere on some projects. The $5 trash Chinese multi-meter can be an incredibly valuable tool for someone somewhere sometimes.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that.

2) needs vs. wants: unless you are Bill Gates, each of us faces a limited budget or doesn't work on cutting-edge projects all the time. So we don't always need the most precise measurements, or the best analytical tools available 3000 years from now. It is the same reason you decided to buy that Chevy, or Ford, or any mass-produced brands.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that either.

There is a tendency to show off one's equipment, rather than one's accomplishment with such equipment. It tends to happen with those who are challenged somewhere / somehow - maybe their desire to over-compensate for something?

[BillWojo]

As a machine tool service engineer I have seen a lot happen in the past 40 years or so. On the Asian front I remember when Mori Sieki was the new kid on the block. Japanese manufactured CNC mills and lathes that were being imported into the USA and being sold for very cheap prices. They met a lot of resistance as WW2 was still in the minds of a lot of shop owners and were called japcrap. But, some shop owners did buy them on price alone. Today I still have a few of them that I service, 35 years old and still running strong. Making precision parts to high tolerances with very good uptime. The build quality of those machines is unbelievable. Better than we were making at the time for a fraction of there cost. Today Japanese machines are considered some of the best in the world. Taiwan followed in there foot steps and is now building decent machines as well, not quite as high quality but not far behind in there high end products. China is in the same market and it's only a matter of time before they make a good product as well. Biggest problem with anything coming from China is build quality, parts and service support. Totally sucks. For now.
As of now, I would not recommend any machine tool coming from China unless it's being manufactured there by a reputable company using China's cheep labor force but under close control for quality assurance.
Give them enough time and they will produce high quality  products. Our University's are filled with there future engineer's  as well. Scary times are ahead for all industrialized nations.

BillWojo

[nctnico]

Purely on logic you found a flaw in my rhetoric. But you must know what I'm getting at?

It probably has more to do with common sense.

Two points for you to consider:

1) one man's treasury vs. another's trash: what's "junk" is highly subjective, both in time, space and person. Fluke may be the be-all-and-end-all for you. It is trash to someone somewhere on some projects. The $5 trash Chinese multi-meter can be an incredibly valuable tool for someone somewhere sometimes.

This reminds me of a true story: my father had to work abroad on satellites every now and then. For some reason he brought his $5 continuity tester along on one of those trips. It turned out that for some of the tests they had to do that $5 continuity tester was the best tool they had available even though having millions worth of other equipment available.

[nctnico]

After being in the electronics industry for 30 years:

I've learned a few things by buying cheap crap(knowingly/and not) from China.
1. Crappy documentation and no schematics=unrepairable, uncalibratable.

Try to get schematics for any device from Tektronix, Lecroy or Agilent manufactured after 2000.

2. Buy a piece of test equipment=bad support, no support.

A piece of equipment which can't work without support is crap to begin with.

4. Most of the Chinese branded components have no real Web presence,
no guaranteed specs, and no warranties.

I'm not against buying "no brand"parts from Asia, but caveat emptor!
Do your homework and know who you are buying from.

You can buy Chinese equipment from local dealers all over the world.

When it comes to your reference equipment, DMMs, Counters, Generators, Power Supplies, Scopes,
concentrate on the quality. Don't be suckers. Quality is directly proportional to cost.
When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, or can prove with specs., warranty, and reputation that they are worth dropping
money on.

For me it is simple: I use my equipment to earn a living. Nowadays I buy mostly new Chinese equipment instead of used equipment. The reason is simple: the Chinese equipment offers the best price/performance ratio. With prices at least twice as cheap as the big A-brands you'd be a fool to buy something from one of the big A brands. They have their equipment made in China as well so in case of bugs/problems some firmware engineer in China has to fix it. The only thing the Chinese do by selling directly is cutting out an extra layer of overhead which does not add significant value other than a warm & fuzzy feeling because the badge says 'big A brand' instead of 'OneHungLo'.

And even if the life span of Chinese equipment is significantly shorter I can buy the latest & greatest a few years later and still spend less money compared to buying a piece of 'big A-brand' equipment which is outdated by that time. I've seen it many times: people start their own business and as soon as they have saved some money they buy the best Tektronix, Lecroy or Agilent oscilloscope they can afford and still consider it a high quality piece of equipment when in fact it is an outdated piece of crap ready for the dumpster. I change (upgrade) my oscilloscopes faster than my cars.

edit: typos

[tinhead]

Chinese Junk

OK. let me have it!

the biggest chinese junk was to borrow lend US of Idiocracy about 1.2 trillion $, and then to hear how crap china and how great US  are

[Macbeth]

the biggest chinese junk was to borrow lend US of Idiocracy about 1.2 trillion $, and then to hear how crap china and how great US  are

Lots of native English speakers get the borrow/lend thing the wrong way round too!

[edy]

There are a few things going on here.... Quality and design consistency issues are the core problem and lack of proper regulation and safety enforcement. When stuff used to be made all over the world, we had crap coming from everywhere. As the Chinese labor cost beat everyone out, more and more manufacturing was moved there, along with inconsistency. Meanwhile the stuff that remained made *outside* of China had to be better quality to justify the higher cost, otherwise they would offer no advantage vs. Chinese made stuff.

So you have this "illusion" that all Chinese stuff is crap while the rest of the world makes quality. The truth is, you have every range of quality coming out of China... from good to bad... and often cheaper than if it was made elsewhere. But we think the rest of the world somehow is better when all we are really seeing are the "survivors" in the electronic industry that had no choice but to ensure their products were built a certain way to justify the higher cost considering their Chinese competitors now control a much bigger piece of the business (including all the lower end) so they could only compete on the high end.

[dfmischler]

The shorthand I use is "China's Finest" or "China's Cheapest".

China's Finest is a pretty good product.  China's Cheapest is kind of scary.

[Rick Law]

Jim Rogers, founder/CEO of Quantum Fund, was quoted in Business Week (or Fortune about 10 years ago) "The best gift one can give to their children is the knowledge of Mandarin."   In his New York City penthouse, he hired a Chinese nanny to make sure his kid(s) can speak Chinese.  He later moved to Singapore so his kid(s) can get fluent with Chinese.

Net-net is: If you are just starting your career, going to a community college to sign up for a Chinese course will do you a world of good.

Rick
Quote from Wikipedia:
<sub>"In December 2007, Rogers sold his mansion in New York City for about 16 million USD and moved to Singapore. Rogers claimed that he moved because now is a ground-breaking time for investment potential in Asian markets. Rogers's first daughter is now being tutored in Mandarin to prepare her for the future. He is quoted as saying: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers</sub>

But,Rick, the quoted wiki text is more about investment opportunities than helping his kids learn "Chinese"l
They speak Cantonese & English in Singapore,not Mandarin!
You can learn Mandarin anywhere.

That is just the incompleteness of Wiki.  If you look at Roger's interviews at Fortune (if I recall, that was where I read that quote) and other sources including TV interviews, you sure will see that he is very hot on learning Chinese for his kids.

Since he has been talking as if Mandarin is it, his staying in Singapore had me puzzled also.  He probably wanted his children to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese.  Cantonese is particularly hard to learn since there is no written form to speak of - except those words both Cantonese and Mandarin share.  The grammatical rules are also difficult to learn without a written form.    While both are tonal language, Mandarin uses 4-tones whereas Cantonese uses 9-tones.

Overall, I would say for business Mandarin is more important than Cantonese long term.

[coppice]

Since he has been talking as if Mandarin is it, his staying in Singapore had me puzzled also.  He probably wanted his children to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese.  Cantonese is particularly hard to learn since there is no written form to speak of - except those words both Cantonese and Mandarin share.  The grammatical rules are also difficult to learn without a written form.    While both are tonal language, Mandarin uses 4-tones whereas Cantonese uses 9-tones.

There is a written form of every Cantonese word, and they are all in the Unicode character set. People do write in Cantonese, but it is considered slangy. The serious news pages of a Hong Kong newspaper is written as if it is Mandarin, even though most readers scan the text as if it is Cantonese. The "trendy" pages of the newspaper are written in pure Cantonese.

[HiTech]

When it comes to your reference equipment, DMMs, Counters, Generators, Power Supplies, Scopes,
concentrate on the quality. Don't be suckers. Quality is directly proportional to cost.
When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, or can prove with specs., warranty, and reputation that they are worth dropping
money on.

I concur with the above statement. Even products from B&K, Sencore, GW, Hitachi, and similar aren't anything to write home about IMHO. It's more the way of service grade/spec caliber stuff.

I too stick w/ the proven heavy hitters- HP, Tek, Datron, Millivac, LeCroy, Phillips/Fluke with some of it synched to a 10Mhz OCXO. My lesser equip. is by Astron, Wavetek, &  similar.

[Rick Law]

Since he has been talking as if Mandarin is it, his staying in Singapore had me puzzled also.  He probably wanted his children to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese.  Cantonese is particularly hard to learn since there is no written form to speak of - except those words both Cantonese and Mandarin share.  The grammatical rules are also difficult to learn without a written form.    While both are tonal language, Mandarin uses 4-tones whereas Cantonese uses 9-tones.

There is a written form of every Cantonese word, and they are all in the Unicode character set. People do write in Cantonese, but it is considered slangy. The serious news pages of a Hong Kong newspaper is written as if it is Mandarin, even though most readers scan the text as if it is Cantonese. The "trendy" pages of the newspaper are written in pure Cantonese.

EDIT:
I decided to remove my reply I first posted to the message above.  In my reply, I disagree that There is a written form of every Cantonese word and I cited some examples like written form of "yesterday" would be spoken entirely different with one non-writable words.

I decided to remove the reply because the words I wrote in Mandarin, while showing up correctly in preview, does not show correctly after I post.  So the reply would have been unreadable.

[vk6zgo]

Jim Rogers, founder/CEO of Quantum Fund, was quoted in Business Week (or Fortune about 10 years ago) "The best gift one can give to their children is the knowledge of Mandarin."   In his New York City penthouse, he hired a Chinese nanny to make sure his kid(s) can speak Chinese.  He later moved to Singapore so his kid(s) can get fluent with Chinese.

Net-net is: If you are just starting your career, going to a community college to sign up for a Chinese course will do you a world of good.

Rick
Quote from Wikipedia:
<sub>"In December 2007, Rogers sold his mansion in New York City for about 16 million USD and moved to Singapore. Rogers claimed that he moved because now is a ground-breaking time for investment potential in Asian markets. Rogers's first daughter is now being tutored in Mandarin to prepare her for the future. He is quoted as saying: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers</sub>

But,Rick, the quoted wiki text is more about investment opportunities than helping his kids learn "Chinese"l
They speak Cantonese & English in Singapore,not Mandarin!
You can learn Mandarin anywhere.

That is just the incompleteness of Wiki.  If you look at Roger's interviews at Fortune (if I recall, that was where I read that quote) and other sources including TV interviews, you sure will see that he is very hot on learning Chinese for his kids.

Since he has been talking as if Mandarin is it, his staying in Singapore had me puzzled also.  He probably wanted his children to learn both Mandarin and Cantonese.  Cantonese is particularly hard to learn since there is no written form to speak of - except those words both Cantonese and Mandarin share.  The grammatical rules are also difficult to learn without a written form.    While both are tonal language, Mandarin uses 4-tones whereas Cantonese uses 9-tones.

Overall, I would say for business Mandarin is more important than Cantonese long term.

Rick,I was wrong,& you & Coppice were right!

I was going by memory----back in the day,most ethnic Chinese people outside China spoke Cantonese,but in Singapore,a concerted effort has been made over many years to promote Mandarin,with the resulf fhat the large majority of people are now Mandarin speakers.(I found this in Wiki)

[Rick Law]

... ...

Rick,I was wrong,& you & Coppice were right!

I was going by memory----back in the day,most ethnic Chinese people outside China spoke Cantonese,but in Singapore,a concerted effort has been made over many years to promote Mandarin,with the resulf fhat the large majority of people are now Mandarin speakers.(I found this in Wiki)

The power of money -- which was I was trying to point out to the OP.  He can yell all he wants about the Chinese, but money talks.  Even in Hong Kong, Mandarin is more common these days.

Chinese certainly have their junk manufacturers, but they have good ones too.  EBay is a big outlet for the cheap stuff which is going to be more low end stuff than high end.  It is like getting things from a factory outlet and complain about things not being ship shape. 

[SeanB]

Chinese is as good as US made for a lot of things, you just cut out 3 markups along the chain. Chinese copy of US stuff is around 10% of the cost, and does the same work and in some cases you get a better product. Yes you do get cost cutting and poor workmanship in places but this is compensated by spare parts being relatively cheap and in most cases you can just copy the copy with a decent machine shop.

[Cside]

The chinese are probably saying the opposite over there "Why buy this overpriced garbage from cut-through westerners when we can make our own?"

[Wytnucls]

Construction and industrial companies in China are no fools, they buy foreign-made quality tools mostly. Check Fluke sales figures for China.

[Terabyte2007]

Being an owner of Agilent, Fluke and Tek products myself, I can tell you that if you do your due diligence and research the Chinese products before buying they can be quite good. There is crap everywhere, not just from China. I have bought items produced here in the US which were horrible. It really depends on the company producing the product, China just happens to be one of the largest producers and exporters of electronics in the world so by the sheer volume of gear hitting the market, you have a better chance of buying junk if your not careful.

[Terabyte2007]

I might also add, a few months back I had purchased a piece of test gear from a Chinese company and the software would not load properly. I contacted them through their website and received an immediate response from an english speaking representative. After a few rounds of exchanged information in an email she had send the report over to a software engineer who had fixed the problem and provided me with a download link for the new software. The whole process only took a few days and most of the time was because of the time differences in response to replies. It was actually a relatively pain free experience. Again, depends on the company and their willingness to provide a quality product and support.

[Rick Law]

I think one of the negative feeling folks feel is subconsciously caused by the wage pressure.  While that is understandable, but it leads to wrong actions.  There is no better way to ensure defeat than to under estimate one's own competition.

We (the "developed nations") foolishly put too many road blocks ahead of ourselves and (particularly the USA) failed to educate our young to the level of competitiveness needed in this world.

Just over a month before the first iPhone was to be released in 2007...   ...And then, with Apple just about to ramp up iPhone production, Steve demanded that the iPhone's screen be replaced with unscratchable glass.

“I want a glass screen," Steve is quoted as saying. "And I want it perfect in six weeks.”

The glass itself would come from Corning, an American company. But the only way for Apple to meet Steve's deadline would be to find an empty glass-cutting factory...    ... and a team of mid-level engineers to figure out how to cut the glass into millions of screens.


And, we also failed to see it is beyond mere labor cost...

As the Apple executives who spoke to Duhigg and Bradsher for their article make clear, there is no way American manufacturing companies could have met this timetable.

The end-to-end process of building the iPhones, Duhigg and Bradsher report, required 8,700 mid-level engineers. In the United States, Apple estimated, it would have taken 9 months to hire this many engineers. In China, it took 15 days.

Even if you put the 8700 engineer issue aside, we (in the "developed world") would still be filling forms in the sixth week instead of being in production already.

Above quotes from Business Insider which was a rehash of NY-Times article from Charles Duhigg and Keith Bradsher.

http://www.businessinsider.com/steve-jobs-new-iphone-screen-2012-1

[Kjelt]

The chinese are getting there step by step, Take Oppo for example, they build the best bluray players in the world, better then Denon/Marantz/etc. They are quite expensive also but that is not the point here or was it?

Then there is the market space you want to place your product. Cost vs quality. Did you know that an average B&D electric drill will last 25 hours of drilling and that is not in concrete? With no ballbearings to compensate the vertical forces they are scrap after 40 hours of use. Still hundreds of thousands of household are pleased with them since they only use them 30 minutes a year. Do you need a Hilti costing 50 times as much? Naaaaah.

[dannyf]

a rehash of NY-Times article from Charles Duhigg and Keith Bradsher.

If you want to understand the demise of the developed world, all you need is to read the reader comment section on the story of workers getting up at middle of the night to redo a piece of the assembly process: "I wouldn't never do that", "that's such an abuse", "it is not worth it", ...

We don't have the ability to compete. But (far) more importantly, we don't have the will to compete. That "animal spirit" that propelled our forefathers (and mothers) are not part of today's western culture.

But it is in Asia.

[Kjelt]

But it is in Asia.

Matter of time..... the youth is also getting tired of being drilled
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/879187.shtml

[miguelvp]

But it is in Asia.

Matter of time..... the youth is also getting tired of being drilled
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/879187.shtml

And that's why now they have a predominant middle class.

[Rick Law]

But it is in Asia.

Matter of time..... the youth is also getting tired of being drilled
http://www.globaltimes.cn/content/879187.shtml

re: Matter of time..... the youth is also getting tired of being drilled

Of course some are.  First generation build it via hard work, second generation had the experience of seeing how it was done, but third generation got the benefit without even seeing what it took to build it.  If they failed to educate their youth as we had, then their youth will also loose their ability to compete.  They will see themselves decline as we (in the USA) are experiencing right now.

Many if not most youth in the developed world hadn't seen what it took to get to what we have.  Everybody merely wants a piece of the pie but without the slightest of idea of the needs to earn it.  Listen to all the cries about "living wage", did you ever hear about making a contribution worthy of a living wage?

Equal outcome are on of the ideas that China abandoned with Deng Xiaoping ("black cat white cat" quote, and "getting rich is..." ).  And with the Cultural Revolution in far memory, they even stepped back from force volunteerism.  It may even be accurate to say "Send Down Youths" is now a thing of the past.  Whereas, some high schools here in the USA still require "community work", "volunteer points", etc. for graduation.  They are moving away from the failed ideology whereas we are heading deeper into it.

If we don't change course to compete, we can only hope they change course back to non-performance as that would be the only way for us not to be left behind alone.  But having company in a desolate economy still doesn't make it better now, does it?

Rick

[Kjelt]

Well you could argue about what is rewarded in a society.
If I look at it black/white then our societies reward extroverts, people that open their mouth get more then those that follow commands.
However for a society to achieve greatness it also needs people that follow and do the work that needs to be done.
How many captains does a ship need? Then why is our society only stimulating for everybody to become a captain while we have a huge need for great sailors/rowers? Why is it that our society looks down on those sailors and only praises captains? That is the pitfall imho for china.

[Rick Law]

Well you could argue about what is rewarded in a society.
If I look at it black/white then our societies reward extroverts, people that open their mouth get more then those that follow commands.
However for a society to achieve greatness it also needs people that follow and do the work that needs to be done.
How many captains does a ship need? Then why is our society only stimulating for everybody to become a captain while we have a huge need for great sailors/rowers? Why is it that our society looks down on those sailors and only praises captains? That is the pitfall imho for china.

Your point makes perfect sense.  Unfortunately, I don't think it is "society looks down on those sailors and only praises captains" that is a problem.  The problem is when sailors want the cabin of the captain, want the perks of the captain, and want the wage of the captain.  That is what cause the system breaks down.

When regardless of how much contribution you make and you are given the same reward (equal outcome), inevitably, very few will work hard.  There will not be enough to sustain a society when too few are working hard.  We are not all like oil rich Kuwait - they can all sit back and just let the oil flow and money come in.  We like most societies must earn to sustain our society.  Therefore, in my view, deference must be given to those who earn.

[markce]

With a drive from only short term shareholder value, western companies have their expensive products
manufactured in Chinese plants, and educate them in the process.
Now Chinese are starting to seriously compete at a much lower price point. We asked for it, and we have no
answers yet.
As a customer, if I neglect the super cheap stuff, I can buy good functional products, free shipping from China at a fraction of
the price western shops are asking for the same (maybe rebranded) products.

Base line - we are giving away our engineering.

[microe]

Chinese Junk

OK. let me have it!

the biggest chinese junk was to borrow lend US of Idiocracy about 1.2 trillion $, and then to hear how crap china and how great US  are

can't agree anymore!          I think the topic beginner should learn some basic economics first. 

[vk6zgo]

The chinese are getting there step by step, Take Oppo for example, they build the best bluray players in the world, better then Denon/Marantz/etc. They are quite expensive also but that is not the point here or was it?

Then there is the market space you want to place your product. Cost vs quality. Did you know that an average B&D electric drill will last 25 hours of drilling and that is not in concrete? With no ballbearings to compensate the vertical forces they are scrap after 40 hours of use. Still hundreds of thousands of household are pleased with them since they only use them 30 minutes a year. Do you need a Hilti costing 50 times as much? Naaaaah.

Ball bearings are mass produced in the tens of millions for Automotive use,in China & everywhere else.
Do you really think two bearings would take the price up to Hilti levels?

This is an example of my problem with some Chinese products.
They do dumb things------not so much for the cost savings,as by not making the proper decisions,& end up losing sales.
This is not peculiar to China----many countries over the years have ruined perfectly good products for the same reason.

Black & Decker have been like this for years,however,so this is probably driven by them,rather than the Chinese factory.

.

[janekm]

I noticed something interesting in tools shops in Shenzhen, which is emblematic of the attitude of Chinese factories to the tools they use themselves:
The most expensive version of a (steel) tool is from Germany; the second most expensive from Japan; and the third is Chinese for internal sale. How do you tell a Chinese tool made for the internal market? It is marked something like "Sidanli - USA", hence making abundantly clear that it is not suitable for export, I presume (actually Taiwanese tools also get a look-in).

Similarly, while looking for a meter with a quick conductivity test, the seller suggested that if I want that I want a "Fluuuku" (Chinese pronunciation of Fluke )

[Kjelt]

Do you really think two bearings would take the price up to Hilti levels?

Ofcourse not, but I noticed in practice with relatives that this is the first thing that breaks down, the motor is also cheap, the gears etc. etc. It was designed for a couple of tens of hours while the Hilti or Festool was designed to last years each day 8 hours at the jobsite.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Try to get schematics for any device from Tektronix, Lecroy or Agilent manufactured after 2000.

Not sure what are you talking about. For example, schematics for LeCroy WaveRunner 2, 6000 and WavePro (all made after 2000, the WaveRunner 6000 did come out in 2004) can be found on the internet. Service Manuals and schematics for newer LeCroy scopes up to the latest ones (although I'm not sure if this includes the crappy WaveAce Series of Siglent rebadges) can be bought from LeCroy if you're a business servicing scopes (LeCroy scopes usually come with 3 years warranty and after that are supported for at least 7 years, and during that period they keep their fingers on Service documentation).

At work I have also seen schematics for Tek and Agilent scopes which came out long after 2000.

The only difference nowadays is that schematics aren't necessarily part of Service Manuals any more and that manufacturers don't give them away as freely as they did 15 years ago. On the other side due to their complexity (lots of highly integrated components) of modern scopes (especially highend ones) schematics have become a lot less useful than in the old days of simple analog scopes with discrete through-hole PCBs.

Of course this might be different for what nowadays are throw-away items like DMMs, but for most of the expensive kit schematics are available.

[nctnico]

So basically there are no schematics unless you are lucky and someone 'leaked' them on the internet. Things are different if you are a repair business but it would take some serious cash and an NDA to get the schematics. That means unavailable to me.

[dannyf]

Base line - we are giving away our engineering.

But let's blame somebody else for that, .


Seriously, I agree with you.

[Co6aka]

I think the topic beginner should learn some basic economics first.

If everyone understood how the modern debt-based fiat currency system functions, then ALL would be clear. It's not about economics, it's about the Benjamins, Renminbi, Euro, etc.    People around the world are "trained" to believe that whoever dies with the most wins, because that makes them obedient/compliant workers.

What people around the world are oblivious to is that money, among other things, is a store of value over time. What the makers-of-stuff are being paid with is CURRENCY, which is an IOU that inherently devalues over time, and eventually to its intrinsic value. (Research and study why this is so.) Ironically, much like the cheap crap that breaks the first time it's used!    The sad truth is that whoever dies with the most currency loses, and whoever exchanged the currency (for goods, services, assets, etc) wins.

Also, makers-of-quality-stuff, wherever located and whether or not cognizant of the "currency" problem, desire/expect to be appropriately compensated, unless such an inconvenient desire/expectation can be mitigated by something like hunger, etc. 

[Wuerstchenhund]

So basically there are no schematics unless you are lucky and someone 'leaked' them on the internet.

No, not really. Probably even less so than in the past.

Things are different if you are a repair business but it would take some serious cash and an NDA to get the schematics. That means unavailable to me.

You don't need an NDA to get schematics for an old product from Tek, Agilent or LeCroy. Sorry but that is nonsense, unless we're talking about prototypes or research products.

And as to money involved, well I don't know what you consider to be "serious cash" but for example I remember a quote of approx £180 for the Service Manual with schematics for a LeCroy SDA 6000A, a scope that depending on where you look still goes for £8k+. I also remember that the Service Manual with schematics for the mid range scopes (i.e. WaveRunner 6000) was roughly £80 a year ago. It's now available for free because LeCroy has given them to the Moderator of the LeCroy Yahoo group for dissemination (so no, it's *not* a "leak"). More such manuals are released on a as-requested basis for devices that are outside the main support cycle (LeCroy seems to use the Yahoo group to interface with hobbyists and private user of their older gear for now).

Of course it's a bit more difficult with devices that are still inside primary support, as manufacturers prefer to perform repairs of their current kit themselves (but often they are also the only ones who can actually repair it!) and don't want 3rd parties to attempt repairs which might cause more damage than good, so they keep their fingers on the schematics. But considering that most devices that are inside primary support are relatively young and therefore still of higher remaining value (and often even inside their warranty) I can't really see why anyone would need schematics for such devices. And once the devices in question become older and get outside main support then schematics will become much easier to obtain.

All this is not much different from say 20 years ago. I remember very well that we had to *buy* the service manuals and schematics for a lot of our T&M gear (especially the more expensive kit, cheap kit often came with schematics for some reason), and this wasn't particularly cheap. Even worse, these manuals usually had to be bought over our inhouse calibration department as most manufacturers would only sell the service manuals to them.

Of course later when kit from that aera got older the service manuals found their ways into private hands. In fact, a large part of service manuals and schematics which is available on the internet for kit made *before* 2000 was the result of actual "leaks" from repair shops and calibration laboratories, and not because the manufacurers originally wanted to release them to everyone.

[all_repair]

I think the topic beginner should learn some basic economics first.

If everyone understood how the modern debt-based fiat currency system functions, then ALL would be clear. It's not about economics, it's about the Benjamins, Renminbi, Euro, etc.    People around the world are "trained" to believe that whoever dies with the most wins, because that makes them obedient/compliant workers.

What people around the world are oblivious to is that money, among other things, is a store of value over time. What the makers-of-stuff are being paid with is CURRENCY, which is an IOU that inherently devalues over time, and eventually to its intrinsic value. (Research and study why this is so.) Ironically, much like the cheap crap that breaks the first time it's used!    The sad truth is that whoever dies with the most currency loses, and whoever exchanged the currency (for goods, services, assets, etc) wins.

Also, makers-of-quality-stuff, wherever located and whether or not cognizant of the "currency" problem, desire/expect to be appropriately compensated, unless such an inconvenient desire/expectation can be mitigated by something like hunger, etc. 

I like how you put it.  It give me no hesistation to pick up yet another multimeter, thermocam, etc.

Seriously, you are not wrong, find a good debt to owe is the name of the game.

[dannyf]

IOU that inherently devalues over time, and eventually to its intrinsic value.

How can you contradict yourself in two consecutive sentences?

(Research and study why this is so.)

Sure. That's why such research / study are wrong.

[microe]

In fact, as I know, Chinese products are not such terrible, my SIGLENT oscilloscope and generator performs perfectly and their after-sale service is quite good. Its quality is beyond the price.

[microe]

Try to get schematics for any device from Tektronix, Lecroy or Agilent manufactured after 2000.

Not sure what are you talking about. For example, schematics for LeCroy WaveRunner 2, 6000 and WavePro (all made after 2000, the WaveRunner 6000 did come out in 2004) can be found on the internet. Service Manuals and schematics for newer LeCroy scopes up to the latest ones (although I'm not sure if this includes the crappy WaveAce Series of Siglent rebadges) can be bought from LeCroy if you're a business servicing scopes (LeCroy scopes usually come with 3 years warranty and after that are supported for at least 7 years, and during that period they keep their fingers on Service documentation).

At work I have also seen schematics for Tek and Agilent scopes which came out long after 2000.

The only difference nowadays is that schematics aren't necessarily part of Service Manuals any more and that manufacturers don't give them away as freely as they did 15 years ago. On the other side due to their complexity (lots of highly integrated components) of modern scopes (especially highend ones) schematics have become a lot less useful than in the old days of simple analog scopes with discrete through-hole PCBs.

Of course this might be different for what nowadays are throw-away items like DMMs, but for most of the expensive kit schematics are available.

I think you always like to compare the low price end with the high end products. May be you are rich and your work is relevant to some high-tech, you think only the high-end can meet your request. But I want to tell you is that the T-shirt don't fit you is not because this T-shirt is a crap, it's because you don't fit for it, OK? Someone will be fit for the T-shirt you dislike, just liek the oscilloscopes you look down upon. It fit s for someone, though not you. So please, stop be so harsh.

[Vgkid]

We need the popcorn smiley for this thread.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I think you always like to compare the low price end with the high end products. May be you are rich and your work is relevant to some high-tech, you think only the high-end can meet your request. But I want to tell you is that the T-shirt don't fit you is not because this T-shirt is a crap, it's because you don't fit for it, OK? Someone will be fit for the T-shirt you dislike, just liek the oscilloscopes you look down upon. It fit s for someone, though not you. So please, stop be so harsh.

I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Maybe you could read again what I wrote and tell me where I "look down on something" when I talk about how schematics are available, that's really a far stretch to make. In fact, I didn't write a single word about "high-end" vs "low-end", it was simply about schematics. So sorry but I am really not sure what you're on about.

I also find your uncalled for attack rather rude and insulting. If you have something productive to contribute to this discussion then do. If you're here to insult people then please go away and annoy someone else. And if you're here to troll then I'm pretty sure you will be removed from this forum very quickly.

[ronniegogs]

Just to clarify. I live in Singapore and Mandarin is the most common Chinese language spoken by almost 50% of the people here. Hokkien is the most commonly spoken dialect here in addition to standard Mandarin.

Cantonese is very different and mostly common in Hongkong and Macau. I am not quoting wiki or any website, this is just purely the truth. Just so people know.

Back to topic. Chinese products are making quite an impact on the markets currently. I have a Xiaomi Mi3 phone which is a 2.3 Ghz quad core phone with 2 gb Ram for 250 USD without contract and it can hold its ground against any 600-800 dollar phone.

Do not under estimate a new cheaper competitor assuming quality, value or whatever factor. They can be improved and have been improving.

Classic examples of this happening countless times in past which wiped industries off
1) Quartz Crisis : Swiss watch manufactures had maximum market. A Swiss engineer developed the quartz technology and they found it to be of lesser quality and worthless and didn't protect it. Enter Seiko and Timex. They wipe off swiss manufacturers. Old family owned businesses go bankrupt. Now they are just a new luxury watches cathering to small niche market owned by big brands like swatch and timex groups.
2) Japanese cars : Well you know the story. Now Toyota cars are lean manufacturing are industry standards used by almost all.
3) Digital camera blunder by Kodak who didn't become the first to embrace it even though they made the first digital camera cause they thought it will eat into sales of film cameras. Bankrupt now.

I like to keep an open mind but with Chinese products its already becoming apparent.
I am typing on a computer, using a phone (iphone and chinese phone), using a DSLR, TV, router etc all manufactured in China. Which is the real factory of the world. Of course there are different qualities and values but that is the case with almost everything.

[Kjelt]

It is not always possible for a company to move into another new domain when their main business changes and retain their place in the top. Most companies do NOT succeed in this.

Concerning your list, the japanese cars have excellent mechanics and logistics but their software (another domain they did not adapt) was crap, as some investigations in the last years have found out.

[ronniegogs]

Well the domain was the same it was the decisions of the bean counters which had a close mind which ruined these companies or industries. Its always a good idea to keep an open mind and not make a decision based on theory like Chinese manufactured is Junk.

As a hobbyist a person is entitled to make his own decision and he very much should as it doesn't really matter. It matters when large industries make mistakes based on preconceived notions.

I have worked with procurement and sourcing and decisions to buy a product atleast in my company is just based on quality and has nothing to do with nationality or where its manufactured. Need accuracy, safety, ex proof equipment just buy something which is certified. Doesn't matter where its manufactured.

Back to hobbyist me. I love RC, building helicopters and planes. I dont want to spend huge on multimeters and oscilloscopes. Chinese options give me the accuracy and reliability which I need. So I will consider them quite suited for me.

[Precipice]

You don't need an NDA to get schematics for an old product from Tek, Agilent or LeCroy. Sorry but that is nonsense, unless we're talking about prototypes or research products.

Cool. How would I go about getting schematics for Tek DSA602 and 11302 oscilloscopes? Both are long out of production and unsupported, and mine are starting to fail.

[Kjelt]

Well the domain was the same

I mean the application domain, for instance IBM from mechanical calculators to electromechanical calculators to analogue electronic calculators to digital electronic calculators and computers, all different domains.

I have worked with procurement and sourcing and decisions to buy a product atleast in my company is just based on quality and has nothing to do with nationality or where its manufactured. Need accuracy, safety, ex proof equipment just buy something which is certified. Doesn't matter where its manufactured.

And still you can loose your business by buying it without the proper NDA's and exclusive rights. Again IBM with their PC if they had protected the BIOS, had a decent contract with MS owning the rights and Intel making a little proprietary change in the instruction set of the 8086 exclusively for them and the history as we now know it would have looked entirely differently.

[eas]

Base line - we are giving away our engineering.

But let's blame somebody else for that, .

Seriously, I agree with you.

"Our" engineering?  Whose engineering is that? Exactly.

The way this has worked since the dawn of the industrial age is that the owners have sent the machines to the areas where labor was cheaper. It happened with textiles. First the mills moved to other areas of England, then the NE US (among other places), and then into the South (some of the old NE textile mills buildings ended up being home to earlier phases of the US tech industry. Now its in coastal China. It will likely be in Africa after that. Along the way though, expertise ends up being spread around.

Guess what?  That's not a horrible thing. If development spreads quickly and widely enough then the wage differentials that are used to squeeze the middle and working classes (who generally have ties to their communities, whereas machines and capital don't) shrink and with them, the leverage that pushes down wages and moves jobs over-seas.

A good engineer should keep in mind that, historically, the economy isn't a zero-sum game. Engineering and innovation make the pie bigger, rather than just moving crumbs around. It might help thought if, rather than having "productivity" (ie putting people out of work) as one of the key parameters driving projects, we focused more on building systems that provided productive work to people with a range of skills and aptitudes. Of course, there might be fewer people to look down on; Personally, I'm Ok with that.

But enough of that.  US companies selling a wide range of goods were in such a hurry to take advantage of cheap Chinese labor that they failed to maintain quality control and have undermined their brands as a result, perhaps permanently. So, why is it that I should spend twice as much on something that has a roughly equal chance of sucking?

[ronniegogs]

Ofcourse you need to protect your intellectual property if you have the right. Quartz crisis which I mentioned before could have looked very different if the swiss watch manufacturers had paid heed to new technology and protected it.

My main point is towards the main topic "Chinese Junk-a Provocative Challenge. Give your best shot!". Product are based on need. A 15-30k normal oscilloscope can be very high spec and quality but I am not going to be dropping money on it as it is not value for money for me as a cheaper supposedly junk equipment can get the job done for me just fine. A cheaper UNI-T or Siglent equipment gives me sufficient accuracy for the price and needs. They are priced and perform exactly what their intended market expects them. In fact these "junk" equipment are the reason many people students and hobbyist are getting into EE as previously it was way too expensive for normal folks to buy equipment like this for a hobby or small scale developments.

[tautech]

In fact these "junk" equipment are the reason many people students and hobbyist are getting into EE as previously it was way too expensive for normal folks to buy equipment like this for a hobby or small scale developments.

Exactly, whats more some hobbyists are becoming aware the older equipment that previously was all they could afford can be a reliability nightmare. Once old gear was the ONLY option, not so today.

[Wuerstchenhund]

You don't need an NDA to get schematics for an old product from Tek, Agilent or LeCroy. Sorry but that is nonsense, unless we're talking about prototypes or research products.

Cool. How would I go about getting schematics for Tek DSA602 and 11302 oscilloscopes? Both are long out of production and unsupported, and mine are starting to fail.

Don't know. Ask Tek? If schematics exist then they should have it, assuming they haven't already disposed of them. If not then even an NDA wouldn't make them suddenly available.

BTW: you are aware that the point I was adressing in my reply to ntnico's post was about kit made *after* 2000, right? The DSA600 and 11302 are closer to 1982 vintage. So if schematics for them aren't available then this only serves as a very good example that the availability of schematics isn't necessarily better for kit made before 2000, which contradicts what ntnico has suggested.

And for kit that old it could well be that even Tek has no longer any documentation on them.

[nctnico]

The year 2000 was choosen more or less arbitrarily. Tektronix stopped providing schematics much earlier.

[Wuerstchenhund]

The year 2000 was choosen more or less arbitrarily.

I see.

Tektronix stopped providing schematics much earlier.

As I said I remember that even in the old days we had to pay for service manuals and schematics.

I haven't dealt with Tek for a long time (and never as individual) but considering that they are not really targeting the hobbyist market (and the apparent contempt they showed to the low end market by trying to flog off their 15 year old designs) I wouldn't be all too surprised if they can't be bothered to make their schematics (which they certainly have for all their kit) available to individuals. Probably even less so after they became assimilated by Danaher.

But these problems haven't really changed over the years. Schematics for most kit will eventually find its way into individuals' hands when the kit has become obsolete, while for some devices there won't ever be any schematics available. But that's life.

[microe]

I think you always like to compare the low price end with the high end products. May be you are rich and your work is relevant to some high-tech, you think only the high-end can meet your request. But I want to tell you is that the T-shirt don't fit you is not because this T-shirt is a crap, it's because you don't fit for it, OK? Someone will be fit for the T-shirt you dislike, just liek the oscilloscopes you look down upon. It fit s for someone, though not you. So please, stop be so harsh.

I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Maybe you could read again what I wrote and tell me where I "look down on something" when I talk about how schematics are available, that's really a far stretch to make. In fact, I didn't write a single word about "high-end" vs "low-end", it was simply about schematics. So sorry but I am really not sure what you're on about.

I also find your uncalled for attack rather rude and insulting. If you have something productive to contribute to this discussion then do. If you're here to insult people then please go away and annoy someone else. And if you're here to troll then I'm pretty sure you will be removed from this forum very quickly.

Wow, such a strong threaten. I even didn't use a Word is about insulting. I think I am much rationality. I wouldn't call the products which don't fit me is  "crap".

"(although I'm not sure if this includes the crappy WaveAce Series of Siglent rebadges)"

Did you say this ?  So please, I even used please, dont't insult the hard work by other people, though you don't like it. Easy

[Wuerstchenhund]

Wow, such a strong threaten. I even didn't use a Word is about insulting. I think I am much rationality. I wouldn't call the products which don't fit me is  "crap".

"(although I'm not sure if this includes the crappy WaveAce Series of Siglent rebadges)"

Did you say this ? 

I called the WaveAce Series "crappy" because that is what it is. Don't believe me? Have a look here: And that's only a part of a series.

What LeCroy did was buying some $400 Sglent scope and selling them on for over $1k. The scope from the video was eventually taken back by LeCroy because they couldn't sort out the issues.

Some of the newer Siglent scopes (i.e. the SDS1000CML) which have been re-badged as WaveAce aren't bad for a scope that is $400 (as the Siglent originals are sold for). But the LeCroy equivalent isn't sold for $400, it's closer to $1500, and no matter how much you try to polish a turd, for $1500 it's a pretty crap scope.

So please, I even used please, dont't insult the hard work by other people, though you don't like it. Easy

Yeah, well, even scammers put in hard work, so saying you shouldn't critizise the result because of that is stupid, really, as it means with that argument you're never allowed to critizise anything or anyone, ever.

As to the WaveAce Series, it's not that LeCroy puts much effort into them, as all the hardware and software comes from Siglent.


But all this aside: I don't know how it is in your country but in most of the countries the people here come from freedom of speech is a very essential pillar of society, and your attempt to force your own moral values on others and to censor other opinions can be seen as crossing a line of being offensive. Words like "crap" and "shit" as a description of equipment make regular appearance in this forum (try a search if you don't believe me), and people here take it as it is - an expression of opinion. This community thrives because members are free to express themselves as long as certain (legal) boundaries are not exceeded.

However, it's pretty offensive not only to me but also to the whole EEV community when a newbie like you expects that everyone follows your personal sensibilities and moral values. So I suggest you either adapt or find some other place which better fits your expectations. Either way, it's not your business how I express my opinion.

[tautech]

But all this aside: I don't know how it is in your country but in most of the countries the people here come from freedom of speech is a very essential pillar of society, and your attempt to force your own moral values on others and to censor other opinions can be seen as crossing a line of being offensive. Words like "crap" and "shit" as a description of equipment make regular appearance in this forum (try a search if you don't believe me), and people here take it as it is - an expression of opinion. This community thrives because members are free to express themselves as long as certain (legal) boundaries are not exceeded.

However, it's pretty offensive not only to me but also to the whole EEV community when a newbie like you expects that everyone follows your personal sensibilities and moral values. So I suggest you either adapt or find some other place which better fits your expectations. Either way, it's not your business how I express my opinion.

Harsh.
For all you know he has been in electronics longer than you or me.
And as you and I are, entitled to voice his opinion.

And if you want to sling insults at TE and pricing, check this out:
http://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-oscilloscopes/7158686/
$1500 for an now old base design that your mentioned $400 Siglent might show up.

And if you treat newbies in this sort of fashion, you might be the one seeking "a place that better fits your expectations".

[Wuerstchenhund]

For all you know he has been in electronics longer than you or me.

Has he? More than 3 decades? Of course I can't say as I don't know him personally (or you, for that matter) so I can't say (although his displayed attitude suggest him being closer to teenager age). Of course neither microe nor you know me so you don't know how how long I've been in electronics either. But then all that doesn't as this isn't about electronics or technology at all. It's bloody obvious you didn't get that.

And following microe's silly logic that you shouldn't critizise something because "people have worked hard" to make it would essentially mean that Dave should stop doing his review and teardown videos as I'm sure that "hard work" went into many devices he labelled as "crap" in these videos. Many people watch these videos because they enjoy the way Dave presents, at least I do. I'm also not sure I would enjoy them as much if Dave changed to "clean language". Of course I can only assume that microe will petition Dave to stop "talking down" kit in his videos, too. Because complaining about someone labelling some kit as "crap" on a forum operated by someone who makes a living from making videos which do occasionally the same would be pretty hypocritical.

And as you and I are, entitled to voice his opinion.

Of course he is. However, there is a difference between voicing your opinion and forcing your opinion on others. For example, I don't agree with some (several, actually) things you say, but I will not tell you to stop saying these things.

And if you want to sling insults at TE

Who or what is "TE"?

and pricing, check this out:
http://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-oscilloscopes/7158686/
$1500 for an now old base design that your mentioned $400 Siglent might show up.

Congratulation for not absolutely not getting the point this was about!    Or else you might explain what this Tektronix scope has to do with the fact that LeCroy oversells Siglent scopes.

And if you treat newbies in this sort of fashion, you might be the one seeking "a place that better fits your expectations".

As I said, I may not like your opinion but I will not stop you from voicing it, in fact if necessary would fight even for you to make sure you are able to exercise this basic right. This is obviously a bit different than what microe does, trying to tell people what they should say and what not.  But I'm not really expecting you to get the difference either.

Now, can we finally return to discussing stuff that's actual on-topic?

[SL4P]

Having worked with the highest levels of 'pro' gear, and the lowest consumer / hobby components and equipment, Asian sourced product is no different than any first-world source.  Africa will soon be chasing that retail manufacturing segment to keep profit margins alive.

Investors and managers want to squeeze every cent out of costs/profitability, and the only observable difference is the execution of manufacture and assembly.  Source QA, processes and assembly/QC are extremely variable if not planned and managed well (these are seen as costs).  If the design is fundamentally correct, and these QA/QC processes are in place - China & Asia are easily capable of producing and delivering top class product.  This can be seen in 90% of our consumer and pro-sumer technology products.

However, to achieve the price/benefit required by those invisible investors & managers - someone in the chain has to 'look the other way' on environmental and employee welfare issues.

[Wuerstchenhund]

If the design is fundamentally correct, and these QA/QC processes are in place - China & Asia are easily capable of producing and delivering top class product.

Indeed. It doesn't really matter *where* something is manufactured, what matters are design properties and QA/QC processes.

Maybe we're a bit too fixated on where something is made, when we should look closer to who makes it.

However, to achieve the price/benefit required by those invisible investors & managers - someone in the chain has to 'look the other way' on environmental and employee welfare issues.

How true, and not only for Asia. For example, while the poor working conditions in Foxconn plants in China are well known, it seems the situation for Foxconn workers in the Czech Republic (a EU member country) isn't that much better.

But I guess that's the result when the company aim is no longer the product but to provide maximum profit to its shareholders.

[Kjelt]

what matters are design properties and QA/QC processes.

The first I agree totally with the latter can be complete bullshit to satisfy some norms but says nothing about the actual quality (the parameters) that are checked. I had the same discussion about software quality (cmmi) process, yeah if you document your software for instance you fullfill some criteria in that process but it says nothing about the quality of the software itself which can be total crap (as toyota proved in the last years).

[Wuerstchenhund]

what matters are design properties and QA/QC processes.

The first I agree totally with the latter can be complete bullshit to satisfy some norms but says nothing about the actual quality (the parameters) that are checked.

Well, QA and QC only serve to make sure that defined parameters and standards which are defined in the design properties are met. You're right that even a perfect QA/QC process can result in parameters that are crap, but that is then a problem of wrong design properties.

I disagree that QA/QC are BS, I believe they are very valuable tools that (like any other tool) can be a huge benefit if used right. The real problem are people who wrongly believe that QA/QC are there to come up with proper design parameters, and then blame the processes when it's actually the original design that is shit.

I had the same discussion about software quality (cmmi) process, yeah if you document your software for instance you fullfill some criteria in that process but it says nothing about the quality of the software itself which can be total crap (as toyota proved in the last years)

CMMI is the same, it only serves to check that predefined parameters are met. If these parameters are shit then this is because the relevant parts of the design are crap.

In case of Toyota, from my limited knowledge of the facts it seems that exactly that was the case.

[microe]

Yeah, well, even scammers put in hard work, so saying you shouldn't critizise the result because of that is stupid, really, as it means with that argument you're never allowed to critizise anything or anyone, ever.

As to the WaveAce Series, it's not that LeCroy puts much effort into them, as all the hardware and software comes from Siglent.


But all this aside: I don't know how it is in your country but in most of the countries the people here come from freedom of speech is a very essential pillar of society, and your attempt to force your own moral values on others and to censor other opinions can be seen as crossing a line of being offensive. Words like "crap" and "shit" as a description of equipment make regular appearance in this forum (try a search if you don't believe me), and people here take it as it is - an expression of opinion. This community thrives because members are free to express themselves as long as certain (legal) boundaries are not exceeded.

However, it's pretty offensive not only to me but also to the whole EEV community when a newbie like you expects that everyone follows your personal sensibilities and moral values. So I suggest you either adapt or find some other place which better fits your expectations. Either way, it's not your business how I express my opinion.

First , I am in a free country, so I am so sure you do have the right to use "crap" or "shit" to express your opinion. But I also have right to say "please stop ..." for that I am just express my opinion, not want to force you to accept my opinion(in fact, you didn't be affected by my words right?). It is OK for you to go on with these words.  It is not about age or country, but I will never say these words to make fun of others. (For this topic beginner, I don't like to add a "junk" after ones country. US junk? Britain junk? Add your own country name before that word, does it sounds good? I have used both Rigol and SIGLENT products, just for some normal measurements, they are not such crappy.)

Second, when you comes to someone didn't like your express way, do you always like to ask them to go away and play themselves? I will not, in fact, I will get used to your way and will never ask you to go somewhere else.

Third, I didn't know how do you know the WaveACE comes from SIGLENT1000CML. If you have problem with the price, go with the LeCroy but not SIGLENT.  About the video you referred to(if WaveACE really is 1000CML),I have borrowed a SDS1204CFL(though not CML), do the same thing did by the author, but that problem didn't accur(the timebase is OK). Have you seen that problem both on 1000CML and WaveACE by yourself?

Fourth, may be I did something wrong, for that I shouldn't talk about things not related to oscilloscopes in this forum. I have no meaning to offend you, I just express my opinion in a way you didn't like.

Finally, you said I didn't get your point, maybe. But you may don't get my points too. We have different logic, you think I am offensive, while I think you are.. |Oso it is meaningless to talk about this anymore. But I will still stay in this forum to learn something. And I will accept your way too.

[Rick Law]

...

...

But I guess that's the result when the company aim is no longer the product but to provide maximum profit to its shareholders.

"To provide maximum profit to its shareholders" should be the primary objective of any "for profit" company.  If not that, what is the point of a for profit company?  And if they are not a for-profit company, then they better make it well know that this company is not in it for for money before they list their stock in the stock exchange.

The stock holders buys your stock with the expectation that their retirement nest egg grow.  It is the fiduciary duty of the management of said company to make the most profitable decision possible for those who entrusted the management team with their money.

Making quality product is but one mean to making quality profit.

[Wuerstchenhund]

For this topic beginner, I don't like to add a "junk" after ones country. US junk? Britain junk? Add your own country name before that word, does it sounds good?

It doesn't sound good but it describes the truth. The UK has certainly produced more than their fair share of crap products, as has the US. I've also seen crap made in Germany. So what?

Crap products are made in every country. However, the fact remains that today China is one of the largest (if not the largest) producer of cheap crap. A few decades ago it was Japan, which later has evolved as a producer of high quality and high precision products. China certainly will evolve as well (first signs are visible, as chinese manufacturers start turning away from producing for the lowest possible price only towards higher quality stuff). I guess in 10 years chinese kit will be regarded as high quality as well. But not today.

Second, when you comes to someone didn't like your express way, do you always like to ask them to go away and play themselves?

I didn't *ask* you to go away (it was you who was making demands as to what others should or should not do, remember?), I merely suggested that if you can't accept the tone in here that somewhere else might be a better place for you, because this place is unlikely to follow your demands re "clean" language.

And it really does make you look like a hypocrite to come to a forum and complain about people labelling stuff as "crap" when this very forum is operated by a guy who makes a living from doing exactly that on video to a large audience.

I have no meaning to offend you, I just express my opinion in a way you didn't like.

No problem with expressing your opinion. Just stop telling others what they should or shouldn't say. Remember, it's Dave's turf, not yours (or mine).

But I'd say we leave it at that and come to something more on-topic:

Third, I didn't know how do you know the WaveACE comes from SIGLENT1000CML.

It's a well known secret that the LeCroy WaveAce Series are Siglent scopes. The original WaveAce 100 Series were Siglent SDS1000CM scopes, and the current the WaveAce 1000 and 2000 Series are Siglent SDS1000CML and SDS1000CFL scopes. All made by Siglent for LeCroy, as confirmed by various sources (incl. LeCroy themselves). In fact, even the firmware is made by Siglent, LeCroy merely provides the name. You can even flash the LeCroy firmware on the equivalent Siglent device.

LeCroy does the same with the WaveStation waveform generators which are rebadged Siglent SDG1000 and SDG5000 devices.

About the video you referred to (if WaveACE really is 1000CML)

The video shows a WaveAce 100 which is a SDS1000CM not CML.

I have borrowed a SDS1204CFL(though not CML), do the same thing did by the author, but that problem didn't accur(the timebase is OK). Have you seen that problem both on 1000CML and WaveACE by yourself?

The problem didn't occur because you used a SDS1000CFL (a different scope) which is much newer than the SDS1000CM. These problems have been fixed in the newer scopes.

But yes, I have seen the original problem on the WaveAce a customer in continental Europe bought at that time, and on a Siglent SDS1000CM.

Don't get me wrong, the Siglent SDS1000CNL/CML scopes are nice products for very cheap low-end scopes made by and sold under the name of a chinese manufacturer. I also don't think they're crap (although I've seen some nasty bugs and do find the UI horrible at times) because they cost very little money and are solid enough for beginners as a first scope. Nothing wrong with that (or the very limited functionality) under these circumstances.

However, the WaveAce 1000 carries the label and the price tag of a big name manufacturer. The bugs in the Siglent scopes can easily be forgiven for a low-cost scope from a chinese manufacturer like Siglent, but they are simply not acceptable for a product from a reputable brand like LeCroy, and especially not when their variant is at least 4x as much as the Siglent original. At that price, the WaveAce doesn't compete with the Siglent SDS1000 Series or the Rigol DS1000z or the cheap Owon scopes or other cheap scopes, it competes with more expensive scopes like the Rigol DS2000 or Agilent DSOX2000, and has to be measured by that standard. And by that standard, and considering the price, the WaveAce Series is crap, plain and simple.

And I'm certainly not alone with that opinion. For example, the customer who bought several of the WaveAce scopes was so dissatisfied that they won't consider LeCroy for anything else. Which is a shame as they do make great high end scopes (the best ones in my opinion), but because of LeCroy's stupid move to oversell Siglent scopes the customer now buys its high end kit from Agilent and R&S.

[SL4P]

what matters are design properties and QA/QC processes.

... I had the same discussion about software quality (cmmi) process, yeah if you document your software for instance you fullfill some criteria in that process but it says nothing about the quality of the software itself which can be total crap (as toyota proved in the last years).

This leads to a parallel discussion of -
Software vs hardware ! 
Design vs implementation quailty.
I had this conversation about ten years ago - about 'task programmers', and 'creative programmers'.
Task programmers have no idea what they're programming - they're given a spec and API - then have to meet the criteria of C = A+B within x microseconds.
Creative programmers (formerly 'analysts') - interpret the workflow requirements, and design the blocks based on 'higher knowledge' - then prepare the API and I/O parameters for the the project manager to share out among the task programmers.
This model was the precursor to 'outsourcing' the task programming...
Until the bean counters started outsourcing the creative role- with that inevitable disconnect between the spec, design and the actual product result.
But they save money.

[Wuerstchenhund]

"To provide maximum profit to its shareholders" should be the primary objective of any "for profit" company.

No, it shouldn't. Profit should be the *result* of a proper business, *not* the objective.

It may be the primary objective for an individual to work in a certain business and do a certain job, but it should not be the main objective for a company.

If not that, what is the point of a for profit company?

In simpke terms, the primary objective of a business should be to satisfy the identifed market demand (i.e. the demand for low cost scopes suitable for beginners in Electronics). If the projected demand does exist, if the product satisfies that demand appropriately and if the cost base is sound (i.e producing at lowest costs possible without impacting the product's suitability for the target market while selling at the highest price possible without hampering sales) then the products will sell and the result is profit. Profit which then is at least partially re-invested to either increase the market share in existing markets (for example going international) or to expand to other markets where appropriate demand was identified. If profits made exceed the need for investment then the difference can be distributed to shareholders.

I admit that this is a more traditional approach (as is the idea that a business does fullfill a social role aside from providing work and paying its staff, i.e. by providing training opportunities like apprenticeships or contributing to the cost of infrastructure). Nowadays things are a bit different, following a sickly twisted system where the result (profit) became the new and sole prime objective, with everything else (i.e. the product, the market, the customer, the staff) subordinated.

The recent global economical predicament is more or less as result of this shift.

The stock holders buys your stock with the expectation that their retirement nest egg grow.  It is the fiduciary duty of the management of said company to make the most profitable decision possible for those who entrusted the management team with their money.

The role of shareholders should be to provide capital to a business so that it can grow. They should invest because they believe in the business and want it to succeed. Of course shareholders should also be able to expect to be rewarded if the business they invested in is successful. But again, this reward should be the result of a successful business, not a company's prime objective. And the payout of this reward should be well behind a company's need for further investment (investments should not be curtailed in favor of shareholder rewards).

Again, I admit that this is a more traditional view. In our sickly modern-day economy however, Share Holders are just more snouts in the through to skim what's coming out of a business. Because the prime objective is now maximizing shareholder rewards (personal enrichment) and not satisfying market demand, all other factors (i.e. products) are adjusted to serve this higher goal of feeding the snouts. The results are that investments are only made if they provide a quick return (little to no long-term investments in employee training, basic research and other things which will only be profitable in the long-term future), the squeezing of wages, short-term contracts and regular shedding of workforce.

The primary objective of feeding the snouts also means avoiding as much tax obligations as possible, which essentially means taking out money that should go towards infrastructure (schools, roads, railways etc) and other things which benefits the business and to which it is supposed to contribute through tax.

Again, the effects of this sick system can be seen on the current economic crisis.

[dannyf]

Profit should be the *result* of a proper business, *not* the objective.

Everyone should be happy;

Everyone should have a good life;

Everyone should have health;

Everyone should enjoy peace;

Everyone should be nice to others;

..

Unfortunately, not everyone lives in utopia.

Obviously, you are free to set up a proper business where profit is not the objective.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Obviously, you are free to set up a proper business where profit is not the objective.

Well I did, more than once btw (and am still reaping the benefits). Actually, there are many SMB (Small and Medium sized Businesses) who do exactly that - putting the product, the customer and the market as prime business objective, and treating profits for what they are: the results of a sound business. Few of them are stock listed, although many do have investors (who invest because they want to see the business succeed long-term and not to gain a quick fix). They rarely bring their money off-shore or engage in tax avoidance schemes, which of course puts them at a disadvantage, but interestingly, these businesses have also shown more general resiliency to economic decline than your average vulture-controlled public enterprise. Not that this matters for the latter, though, as the vultures always have their golden parachute at hand to save their bacon. It only affects the average worker, but frankly who cares about him. Let the state take care of them.

[Rubi Han]

After being in the electronics industry for 30 years:

I've learned a few things by buying cheap crap(knowingly/and not) from China.

1. Crappy documentation and no schematics=unrepairable, uncalibratable.

2. Buy a piece of test equipment=bad support, no support.

3. If the the asians could make a DMM as good in Every Way
as a Fluke 87-V for 100USD less, why can't they? Prove to me
this is NOT true.  Show me your homework!

4. Most of the Chinese branded components have no real Web presence,
no guaranteed specs, and no warranties.

I'm not against buying "no brand"parts from Asia, but caveat emptor!
Do your homework and know who you are buying from.

When it comes to your reference equipment, DMMs, Counters, Generators, Power Supplies, Scopes,
concentrate on the quality. Don't be suckers. Quality is directly proportional to cost.
When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, or can prove with specs., warranty, and reputation that they are worth dropping
money on.


OK. let me have it!

It seems you have much prejudice about China. The problem exist, but hope you can be more objective.

Next time, you may choose our products 'Micsig', good quality, fair price. WWw.micsig.com

[Rick Law]

Obviously, you are free to set up a proper business where profit is not the objective.

Well I did, more than once btw (and am still reaping the benefits). Actually, there are many SMB (Small and Medium sized Businesses) who do exactly that - putting the product, the customer and the market as prime business objective, and treating profits for what they are: the results of a sound business. Few of them are stock listed, although many do have investors (who invest because they want to see the business succeed long-term and not to gain a quick fix). They rarely bring their money off-shore or engage in tax avoidance schemes, which of course puts them at a disadvantage, but interestingly, these businesses have also shown more general resiliency to economic decline than your average vulture-controlled public enterprise. Not that this matters for the latter, though, as the vultures always have their golden parachute at hand to save their bacon. It only affects the average worker, but frankly who cares about him. Let the state take care of them.

That is the "case and point" of the beauty of a free society.

Most folks would like to see the retirement saving grow.  Some folks will go to the extend of giving up some of their resources for good courses such as charity, some folks will go to the extend of "doing anything for the money" within the confines of the laws.

(Not to say I am right, but I worked in both continents for a time)  The big difference between USA and Europe I've observed:

(1) Some Europeans thinks the reason a business exist is to provide employment.  We Americans on the other hand view (viewed) it different.  Most folks starts a company or invest in one not to hire their fellow Americans but instead to make money from their fellow Americans and fellow earth-links.

(2) A recent survey (forgot source) summarized what I personally observed but could not verbalize until I read it: Most Europeans think it is okay to do something when there is a law permitting them to do such something, whatever it may be.  Most Americans think it is okay to do something unless there is a law preventing them from doing it.

That leads to another "case and point" of the beauty of a free society: You can spend your money the way you wish.  One can spend the least to buy something just to have it, or spend as much as you possibly can just to have it.

Rick

[nctnico]

It seems you have much prejudice about China. The problem exist, but hope you can be more objective.

Next time, you may choose our products 'Micsig', good quality, fair price. WWw.micsig.com

If you want to push your products make sure people can actually buy them. At least post a pricelist and a list with dealers in the 'buy/sell/wanted section'. Your tablet scope looks good to me but unable to get solid specifications and a price I choose to spend my money on a different oscilloscope.

[dannyf]

Well I did,

Good for you. Maybe you should hire 10 more or 1 thousand more "average workers" to make a better product. Loses be damned, :0)

vultures

You could be a lot more convincing if you didn't demonized others just because they operate under a different but equally legal philosophy.

Respect diversity.

[SL4P]

Well I did,

You could be a lot more convincing if you didn't demonized others just because they operate under a different but equally legal philosophy.

Respect diversity.

Sadly, this is where our free, democratic, guided capitalist society has brought us over the last 60 years.

Politicians operate 'out of sight' legally, corporations operate 'under the table' legally, even simple fraudsters operate their rorts legally - yet they are also permitted to hide and divert immoral earnings and profits legally.

It's ok, we're doing this for your benefit and protection.

Something even scarier...  In most sophisticated legal jurisdictions, it's illegal to set up an independent auditor of these bodies / activities without their approval!

[Rick Law]

...
Politicians operate 'out of sight' legally, corporations operate 'under the table' legally, even simple fraudsters operate their rorts legally - yet they are also permitted to hide and divert immoral earnings and profits legally.
...

If a politician is bad, throw them out of office.  It may sound simple, but it is a harder tasks than it should be.  It may take a while, and it may take a lot of work, but for a society to survive, the politicians in that society must be disposable.

If there is something wrong with the law, the law can be fixed via legal processes.

A nation has to take in some revenue.  The less it tax the productive sectors, the more it encourages productivity and reduces cheat.  However low it goes, there will always be some finding it too high.  It is the challenge for the politicians to arrive at a point where it encourage productivity and discourages cheating, but yet keeping the nation competitive.

Case and point: We in the USA has the highest corporate tax in the western world.  We are becoming less and less competitive.  We are paying the price for it.  Even Burger King just announced the move to Canada.  The most recent (last week) Labor Statistic report from our own government shows it.  92 million US adults not working and labor participation is at a 36 year low.  92 million - that is a mind boggling number.

[SL4P]

Veering wildly off topic...
If the population of country x is increasing, government and business are becoming more efficient, on the same gross revenue rates... why do they need to 'find' more money to break even in public spending?

It seems to me that if everything goes up by (say) 5% per year, then the status quo remains the same if other revenue raising, or the tax rate remains the same.

OK, so we want to move 'forward', or in pollie-speak, 'grow' by 5% per year.
That requires efficiency gains of 5% pa, above the status-quo remaining stable at 5% increase per year.

You might argue that we want a 'new airport', or 'highway system', and schools / hoispitals that requires an injection of funds...  we built airports, roads and hospitals on the original balance sheet.  What has changed - other than public administration becoming less efficient, or greedier?

We have used Public/Private partnerships to raise tolls, or rents for development, yet we get the same results as the old 'poorly managed' past at a higher nett cost!.

Perhaps we need less managers and more do-ers!

[nctnico]

Actually the quality of a product doesn't even matter. What matters is the ability to make people want that product. Microsoft and Apple are fine examples of making boat loads of money from crappy (unfinished) products. If you make the perfect product you never sell the next version.

[SL4P]

Two words come to mind.
SHEEPLE, and rampant CONSUMPTION

Or perhaps the blind leading the blind?

[marmad]

If you want to push your products make sure people can actually buy them. At least post a pricelist and a list with dealers in the 'buy/sell/wanted section'. Your tablet scope looks good to me but unable to get solid specifications and a price I choose to spend my money on a different oscilloscope.

I may have a Micsig MSO210T or MS510IS for review shortly - they're just starting to get them out to some EU dealers.

[miguelvp]

Morton Controls (now Emtesco?) has some available.

https://www.mortoncontrols.com/index.php/oscilloscopes/handheld.html

[Co6aka]

Two words come to mind ... Or perhaps the blind leading the blind?

Nah, it's those steal-thy HABERDASHERS with their steal-thy undergarments... when the tide goes out we'll see who's been swimming naked! 

IOU that inherently devalues over time, and eventually to its intrinsic value.

How can you contradict yourself in two consecutive sentences?

  If by "two consecutive sentences" you're referring to the part of one sentence you quoted, then I gather you believe the intrinsic value of a unit of currency is its face value...? Intrinsic value is the value of the material the unit of currency is composed of, which for paper currency is the paper it's printed on. For coinage, it's the value of the metal. For a deposit account... well, maybe ask a Cypriot to tell you.

(Research and study why this is so.)

Sure. That's why such research / study are wrong.

Evidence, facts, and history are irrelevant if people choose to ignore them. The most important lesson history teaches is that people haven't learned much from history.

Now where's that bloomin' POPCORN smilie!!!   

[nctnico]

If you want to push your products make sure people can actually buy them. At least post a pricelist and a list with dealers in the 'buy/sell/wanted section'. Your tablet scope looks good to me but unable to get solid specifications and a price I choose to spend my money on a different oscilloscope.

I may have a Micsig MSO210T or MS510IS for review shortly - they're just starting to get them out to some EU dealers.

That would be cool. I'm definitely looking forward to that!

[Tinkerer]

I am going to echo an earlier post in this thread.
Chinese stuff alot of times is bad because they made bad decisions on not adding something(s) that would increase the price by like only 5% but would allow it to actually compete really well and not be junk. China has cheap labor and all other things being equal, if they decided to build to quality, they could still beat everyone in regards to price. We are starting to see a move towards this. Once they realize that they can still make alot of money even if they spend just a little more to make sure they have some quality included in a product, other places will be hard pressed to keep up with them.

[marmad]

I think there's a dichotomy at the moment between Chinese hard and soft design - at least in terms of T&M equipment. But perhaps that's the natural course of evolution of an industrial/information economy.

Most of us have seen evidence that the Chinese are certainly capable of producing reasonable (or better than reasonable) quality hardware - but their industrial design, ergonomics, UI design, software, etc. are often sub-par or quite terrible (and I won't even touch customer service, after-sales support, etc.) - and that's the area that they're still lagging far behind, IMHO.

For example, as people here have pointed out over the last few years - and which continues to be a problem even in new Chinese T&M releases - they still haven't figured out how to do the software acceleration on a rotary encoder well.

[idpromnut]

I think there's a dichotomy at the moment between Chinese hard and soft design - at least in terms of T&M equipment. But perhaps that's the natural course of evolution of an industrial/information economy.

Most of us have seen evidence that the Chinese are certainly capable of producing reasonable (or better than reasonable) quality hardware - but their industrial design, ergonomics, UI design, software, etc. are often sub-par or quite terrible (and I won't even touch customer service, after-sales support, etc.) - and that's the area that they're still lagging far behind, IMHO.

For example, as people here have pointed out over the last few years - and which continues to be a problem even in new Chinese T&M releases - they still haven't figured out how to do the software acceleration on a rotary encoder well.

Sometimes I don't wonder if there is a language barrier that is creating either the case of bad after sales support or the impression of it. I am lucky to live in what I will call an "aware" bilingual city in Canada (Montreal). I find it interesting that I see parallels of bad customer sales and support when both sides can't speak the same language. I imagine that this is at least a contributing factor to the impression of bad sales and support from Chinese companies.

[MarkPalmer]

The majority of the test equipment on my benches is admittedly legacy Hewlett Packard items from the 1980’s and early 1990’s.  There is a lot of truth to the saying that they don’t make ‘em like they used to.  All of this equipment cost tens of thousands of dollars back when it was new yet I bought it for mere pennies on those original dollars and all of it has been refurbished to full working order.  Good enough, but there are exceptions to this, especially when I want a test item that is new.
 
I was looking for a LCR meter last winter.  Sure there are plenty of the large desktop HP ones from the 1980’s on the used market that were top of the line for their time.  The problem is they are all big and heavy, they still fetch $500.00 and more, you have to hunt down the Kelvin test fixture most often, and then you would have to pray everything works after the thing gets punished through shipping by UPS, if it was even advertised as working right to begin with.  All for an LCR meter, something I would much rather have as a handheld thing I can throw in a drawer when not being used to test passive components.
 
So I look at new handheld LCR meters.  First discovery is that it’s impossible to buy a new one that is made in the USA today.  There are none.  The next best place was England with Peak/Atlas, but their little tester didn’t have all the features I was looking for.  Agilent?  Made in Malaysia.  B&K?  Made in Taiwan.  So I figured no fear looking at the Chinese offerings as they aren’t any less oriental than the aforementioned names and there really is no way to avoid this today if you want a piece of brand new test equipment that is still in the price range of someone who does this as a hobby.  I got an LCR from Applent, a company that is similar to Rigol.  They have a decent build quality at a reasonable price.  The Applent is better featured than the Agilent handheld offerings and has 4 wire ohms where the Agilent does not, something I think all LCR meters should have.  The Applent has very similar build quality to Agilent, as far as the eye can see.  It was around $100.00 less in price than the comparable Agilent, which made it clear to see you pay that much more just to have the Agilent  name printed on the front of a less featured product made in the same area of the world. 

Support?  If you need company support to use something like an LCR meter, you probably shouldn’t bother with owning one.   User serviceable?  Unless you do it every day for a living you aren’t going to service any of these things yourself with ten trillion surface mounted components on their boards. They are sent back to the factory and often serviced at the board level there.  Schematics?  No one has supplied them with test equipment in decades, unless it was some build-it-yourself educational toy with 20 components from Sparkfun.  True there are plenty of cheap throw-away things coming from China.  Does this automatically qualify all Chinese products as complete junk that have only one goal that being to take your money? If you say yes, take a closer look at what you lay your hands on each and every day.  You are either living under a rock or in a fairy tale world of denial.   
 
-Mark-

[Rick Law]

This is more for the ones just starting out, but I hope it is an interesting read anyway.

I think one of the hidden sentiments is the downward pressure to wage and to the price the China competition brought to the scene.  We all want to think we do X better than many others could, that is why we deserve a better wage than many others.  But the downward pressure makes that more and more difficult.  The heavy hostility towards China's cheap stuff from some perhaps in reflective of the impact felt.

While it may well be right that we could do X better, the controlling factor is not "is it better".  Rather, the controlling factor is whether that additional quality is worth the extra money.  The market seems to have made a loud and clear choice.  Perhaps it is because the average Joe cannot tell the difference between a "well designed one" verses one slap together on the back of the envelop.  Whether the choice is justified or not, the impact still stands.

Most recently, the IT industry went through the same thing with the India competition - quality of product, hidden strengths verses hidden bugs, so forth.  Yet the market came to the conclusion that the added quality of doing it in "the west" is not worth the extra money.  I read and studied "IT Doesn’t Matter" by Nicholas Carr.  I think he is wrong.  I think he just doesn’t understand how IT can be of strategic importance.  But bottom line is, when enough decision makers decided that they will use IT tools like they use pencil sharpeners or a hole-puncher, it became non-strategic (except for software firms of course).  It is a self-fulfilling prophecy.  Consequently, it changed the IT industry.

While the IT industry mainly served businesses, the parallel is still applicable to the EE design, development, and the manufacturing of electronics.

Consumers in the last 20 years decided that quality doesn’t matter, longevity doesn’t matter, and…  The cell phone market is a case and point of such perspective.  With getting "the latest and the greatest" and upgrade every couple of years mind set in place, is there a point in designing a smart phone that can last 20 years?  So, the value of knowing how to make sure your circuit reliable and long lasting only exist in a boutique market today.
 
Like it or not, that price pressure changed and continues to change the industry.  The price pressure changes people's perspective and that changes the values of things.  Folks in the industry have to adapt.  Screaming at their competition's low quality won't change a thing because that won't change enough consumers to return to shopping for quality and something that last.  Consequently, it is better to spend time thinking: if there is a market for lower quality stuff, how can I (as a business) leverage it?  How can I (as one working in those industries) prepare for the unavoidable job market change?  How can I retool myself…

I don't like it myself, but not liking reality doesn't really change it.  To live in a fast moving world means we have to be more adaptable and adapt faster.

These types of changes are natural progression of things.  Without such change we would still be look at "steam engine engineering position" as a career with premium compensation with all the pluses and minuses that world offered.

[vk6zgo]

In many cases "the market" isn't the final consumers--it is the buyers employed by the stores we buy our stuff from.
Ex-manufacturers are in on this,too,with many "badge-engineering" "El Cheapo" stuff.
(Of course,some of these don't exist anymore & the names have been bought by others).

The "higher tech" stuff is quite reliable--I have in front of me a "Telefunken' TV (Chinese company using a defunct brandname).
Only failure-the antenna socket which is built into the tuner-----New TV?, New tuner?
No,"El Cheapo" set top box,and away we go!

The worst quality is in stuff like Electric Kettles & Toasters,where operational lifetimes measured in weeks rather than months are not unusual.

The downside is that paying,say $70 for a "Brandname" gadget doesn't get you any better quality,as it is probably made in the same factory.

And they are totally inconsistent:-

My daughter had a cheap,cruddy,little Toaster,& bought a nice new one at a premium price.

She unwisely leant over the top of it when it was plugged in,(not operating),& ended up on the floor,very thankful for the RCD built into her house.
Investigating,I found that it had an SPST switch in the Neutral line,& the element came way too close to the top of the thing.

The "El Cheapo" had a DPST switching both sides of the Mains,& the element was recessed further into the body.

Three Electric kettles in a row leaked water around the large clear plastic window on the side.
We finally got one which had a proper sight tube on it,& it is still going well.
All Chinese made--bad design failed,good design didn't.

[dannyf]

Sadly, this is where our free, democratic, guided capitalist society has brought us over the last 60 years.

That's very easy to solve: you are tons of non-capitalists societies that you can join merrily -> north korea, cuba, those mid-eastern countries where beheading is popular, to name a few.

You see, the beauty of living in a guided capitalist society is that you can always leave. Those unfortunate north koreans or cubans don't have that freedom.

If you hate your "free, democratic, guided capitalist society" so much, maybe you should be on the next flight out,

[Co6aka]

...the beauty of living in a guided capitalist society is that you can always leave...

Why, it's Argument-by-Dismissal time!  O0 (Werd!)

Now we really need that POPCORN smilie!

Actually, the beauty of living in a guided society is being one of the guiders. 

FWIW, and for anyone so-interested, there's a half-way-decent article re the above application: http://morelibertynow.com/neither-love-nor-leave-usa/

(And y'all ought to read the book "Propaganda" by the granddaddy of advertising, Edward Bernays.)

Now, back to our regularly scheduled teardown!