Chinese Junk-a Provocative Challenge. Give your best shot!

[creepyoldenj]

After being in the electronics industry for 30 years:

I've learned a few things by buying cheap crap(knowingly/and not) from China.

1. Crappy documentation and no schematics=unrepairable, uncalibratable.

2. Buy a piece of test equipment=bad support, no support.

3. If the the asians could make a DMM as good in Every Way
as a Fluke 87-V for 100USD less, why can't they? Prove to me
this is NOT true.  Show me your homework!

4. Most of the Chinese branded components have no real Web presence,
no guaranteed specs, and no warranties.

I'm not against buying "no brand"parts from Asia, but caveat emptor!
Do your homework and know who you are buying from.

When it comes to your reference equipment, DMMs, Counters, Generators, Power Supplies, Scopes,
concentrate on the quality. Don't be suckers. Quality is directly proportional to cost.
When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, or can prove with specs., warranty, and reputation that they are worth dropping
money on.


OK. let me have it!

[dannyf]

When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, ...

I am not sure. I mean, if you are really serious about your "serious electronics bench", why would you let Fluke, Tek or Agilent ... stuff get there? If you didn't spend $205 million or more on a 10cm pure oxygen wire, another $78.2 trillion contract to NASA to hire 104,000 Harvard educated MBA, MIT-trained electronics PhD and Stanford-graduated electronics engineering wonks for your custom-designed and one-of-a-kind multimeter, you don't deserve to call your electronics bench "serious".

So you need to be seriously serious.

[creepyoldenj]

Purely on logic you found a flaw in my rhetoric. But you must know what I'm getting at?

[all_repair]

Maybe spend a few years learning Chinese and another a few learning the eco system, you shall be rewarded.  After a year or 2 learning part of the eco system, I can tell you there are gems.  I don't know about Fluke 87 as I already got a few I did not look around for them.   

[miguelvp]

Every piece of electronic equipment I purchase now comes from China, even non electronics, but it all seems to be working just fine, sure there are a lot of QA problems out there but that's not the norm. And as a new contender and the only remaining superpower other than the US I wouldn't hate much on them. Assuming their engineers are less than the western world ones is something you don't want to put to a test. They might not get us or communicate well with us, but the sure have the knowledge and workforce.

[creepyoldenj]

What does learning Chinese and the "eco" systen have to do with it"
The Chinese are selling to a non Chinese market and they want our money.
They have to EARN IT. This is about getting a good product for a fair price.
Chinese=state controlled capitalism.

[larry42]

My motto: don't buy crap. It's bad for the environment, and I can't stand knowing that charlatans profit.

Instead of buying that cheap POS - save up or just don't buy it. I will buy things from companies like Rigol or Uni-T because they at least have some level of QA. No way I'm giving my cash to the junk sold on deal extreme etc..


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[creepyoldenj]

Rigol is relatively better. But manuals and docs still substandard. Uni-T, heard good and bad.
You pays your money, you takes your chances with obscure 3rd world companies.

[all_repair]

What does learning Chinese and the "eco" systen have to do with it"
The Chinese are selling to a non Chinese market and they want our money.
They have to EARN IT. This is about getting a good product for a fair price.
Chinese=state controlled capitalism.

The traders are interested to earn from you.  The good-and-cheap makers have more than enough to sell internally.  And the traders are selling the worst lots to you (some even are clearly labeled as reject on the China market).   If you can't speak the language, these engineers are just like people here that are proud of their work and efforts, and would not want to sell to you and risk having the reputation tarnished.

[PedroDaGr8]

3. If the the asians could make a DMM as good in Every Way
as a Fluke 87-V for 100USD less, why can't they? Prove to me
this is NOT true.  Show me your homework!

Since you mention Aisans in the generic sense, the Taiwanese (AND are technically Chinese either of origin or period depending on who you ask) can step up to the plate. Have you seen the Brymen B869? This meter goes toe to toe with the 87V at every level, often beating it and ay $50-100 cheaper depending on your source for each of the meters. Pretty much everything Brymen makes is solid.

From Uni-T the recently announced UT171 and UT181 models appear to be VERY solid and capable.

[Rick Law]

What does learning Chinese and the "eco" systen have to do with it"
The Chinese are selling to a non Chinese market and they want our money.
They have to EARN IT. This is about getting a good product for a fair price.
Chinese=state controlled capitalism.

When it was time for me to choose for my daughter which "foreign language course" she should be taking at school, I looked up Fortune Magazine's "Fortune 100".  Those domiciled in English speaking lands dominates, but second was toss up between French, German and Chinese.  Given the trajectory, Chinese would have been an easy choice.  But neither German nor Chinese was offer at her school.  So French was it.

Today, China (Shanghai), China Hong Kong, Korea dominate the (international high school test) PISA scores with the three of them trading the top-spot last few years.  We (USA) barely rank top 30.  I suspect in the not too distant future, where ever you are in the world, you would be at a disadvantage with your career if you don't know Chinese.  It is not just the technology industry; (From BBC) BMW already sold more in China than in the USA.  In the hotel and luxury goods business, you would be as disadvantaged as like not knowing English in the 1970's. 
http://uk.reuters.com/article/2014/01/10/uk-bmw-china-idUKBREA090AI20140110

Jim Rogers, founder/CEO of Quantum Fund, was quoted in Business Week (or Fortune about 10 years ago) "The best gift one can give to their children is the knowledge of Mandarin."   In his New York City penthouse, he hired a Chinese nanny to make sure his kid(s) can speak Chinese.  He later moved to Singapore so his kid(s) can get fluent with Chinese.

Net-net is: If you are just starting your career, going to a community college to sign up for a Chinese course will do you a world of good.

Rick

Quote from Wikipedia:
<sub>"In December 2007, Rogers sold his mansion in New York City for about 16 million USD and moved to Singapore. Rogers claimed that he moved because now is a ground-breaking time for investment potential in Asian markets. Rogers's first daughter is now being tutored in Mandarin to prepare her for the future. He is quoted as saying: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers</sub>

[alexwhittemore]

You seem to be roundly ignoring that virtually all of the name-brand, top-shelf quality equipment you're talking about is Asian-sourced. Not necessarily in its totality - much of it is designed by engineers in the US or Europe then manufactured there. But plenty of it is Asian, top to bottom. Point being, if you're an Asian OEM designing and building scopes, do you sell them as white-label rebranded units to Agilent, or do you try to sell them under your own no-name brand for way less money? Duh.

[VK5RC]

I think you (OP)  need to read some history,  even I can recall in the 70s Japan products were similar to today's Chinese products 'Jap cr#p'  was the term,  now their QA is at the top.  I have also bought some pretty poor quality stuff from other countries as well! 
Either way a good stirring topic!

[Yago]

Every country has crap manufacturers, products and sellers.
The proportions shift with time and marketplace, but it is far from any nations speciality.

As always the onus is on the buyer to be smart and do the homework first, never ruling out used market for old goldies etc.

[vk6zgo]

Jim Rogers, founder/CEO of Quantum Fund, was quoted in Business Week (or Fortune about 10 years ago) "The best gift one can give to their children is the knowledge of Mandarin."   In his New York City penthouse, he hired a Chinese nanny to make sure his kid(s) can speak Chinese.  He later moved to Singapore so his kid(s) can get fluent with Chinese.

Net-net is: If you are just starting your career, going to a community college to sign up for a Chinese course will do you a world of good.

Rick
Quote from Wikipedia:
<sub>"In December 2007, Rogers sold his mansion in New York City for about 16 million USD and moved to Singapore. Rogers claimed that he moved because now is a ground-breaking time for investment potential in Asian markets. Rogers's first daughter is now being tutored in Mandarin to prepare her for the future. He is quoted as saying: "If you were smart in 1807 you moved to London, if you were smart in 1907 you moved to New York City, and if you are smart in 2007 you move to Asia.""

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jim_Rogers</sub>

But,Rick, the quoted wiki text is more about investment opportunities than helping his kids learn "Chinese"l
They speak Cantonese & English in Singapore,not Mandarin!
You can learn Mandarin anywhere.

[coppice]

They speak Cantonese & English in Singapore,not Mandarin!
You can learn Mandarin anywhere.

Are you confusing Singapore with Hong Kong? There is a lot more Mandarin than Cantonese used in Singapore.

[Warhawk]

My motto: don't buy crap. It's bad for the environment, and I can't stand knowing that charlatans profit.

Instead of buying that cheap POS - save up or just don't buy it. I will buy things from companies like Rigol or Uni-T because they at least have some level of QA. No way I'm giving my cash to the junk sold on deal extreme etc..


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That is exactly my attitude as well ! I hate when people , usually bored at night or at work (!), buying crap from DX or ebay just for "fun" and because it is cheap. Then they receive an item, find out that it's useless and throw it away. I've seen it a million times... This waste of money and a waste production is really ridiculous.  I don't care about their money but I do care about the environment.

The second thing is a quality itself. Eg. a flashlight supplied with a 230V AC charger without any transformer and proper isolation is something I can not tolerate.
Couple months ago we tried to reuse some common choke from cheap ATX power supply and found out that there is a paper inside, instead of cooper.

And people are still buying that crap in huge amounts , cargo ships and planes are shuttling back and forth and the mother Earth is being polluted by a products which have never had any value since they were produced.

[tautech]

Well I'm old enough to remember the quality goods that came from the western world and the rubbish that at the same time came from Japan. In my early life there where no consumer goods ex China, then rubbish goods, until today when we are starting to see some really good stuff.
With the wide and varied interests I have, I often see Chinese goods made for well established western companies that must have to meet those companies QC for them to even consider risking their reputations.
So I go searching for the Asian source of those re-branded goods and it often takes weeks of searching off and on to find them, but what a goldmine when you do.
How they make stuff for so little staggers me.
But take a punt, get a product and put it through it's paces, you could be shocked as to the quality.
Never world beating, but very fit for purpose.
Often they are not great marketeers of their products, but once contact is made they are good to deal with.
Like it or lump it, the Chinese are to be a bigger part of our lives looking forward.

[dannyf]

Purely on logic you found a flaw in my rhetoric. But you must know what I'm getting at?

It probably has more to do with common sense.

Two points for you to consider:

1) one man's treasury vs. another's trash: what's "junk" is highly subjective, both in time, space and person. Fluke may be the be-all-and-end-all for you. It is trash to someone somewhere on some projects. The $5 trash Chinese multi-meter can be an incredibly valuable tool for someone somewhere sometimes.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that.

2) needs vs. wants: unless you are Bill Gates, each of us faces a limited budget or doesn't work on cutting-edge projects all the time. So we don't always need the most precise measurements, or the best analytical tools available 3000 years from now. It is the same reason you decided to buy that Chevy, or Ford, or any mass-produced brands.

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to understand that either.

There is a tendency to show off one's equipment, rather than one's accomplishment with such equipment. It tends to happen with those who are challenged somewhere / somehow - maybe their desire to over-compensate for something?

[BillWojo]

As a machine tool service engineer I have seen a lot happen in the past 40 years or so. On the Asian front I remember when Mori Sieki was the new kid on the block. Japanese manufactured CNC mills and lathes that were being imported into the USA and being sold for very cheap prices. They met a lot of resistance as WW2 was still in the minds of a lot of shop owners and were called japcrap. But, some shop owners did buy them on price alone. Today I still have a few of them that I service, 35 years old and still running strong. Making precision parts to high tolerances with very good uptime. The build quality of those machines is unbelievable. Better than we were making at the time for a fraction of there cost. Today Japanese machines are considered some of the best in the world. Taiwan followed in there foot steps and is now building decent machines as well, not quite as high quality but not far behind in there high end products. China is in the same market and it's only a matter of time before they make a good product as well. Biggest problem with anything coming from China is build quality, parts and service support. Totally sucks. For now.
As of now, I would not recommend any machine tool coming from China unless it's being manufactured there by a reputable company using China's cheep labor force but under close control for quality assurance.
Give them enough time and they will produce high quality  products. Our University's are filled with there future engineer's  as well. Scary times are ahead for all industrialized nations.

BillWojo

[nctnico]

Purely on logic you found a flaw in my rhetoric. But you must know what I'm getting at?

It probably has more to do with common sense.

Two points for you to consider:

1) one man's treasury vs. another's trash: what's "junk" is highly subjective, both in time, space and person. Fluke may be the be-all-and-end-all for you. It is trash to someone somewhere on some projects. The $5 trash Chinese multi-meter can be an incredibly valuable tool for someone somewhere sometimes.

This reminds me of a true story: my father had to work abroad on satellites every now and then. For some reason he brought his $5 continuity tester along on one of those trips. It turned out that for some of the tests they had to do that $5 continuity tester was the best tool they had available even though having millions worth of other equipment available.

[nctnico]

After being in the electronics industry for 30 years:

I've learned a few things by buying cheap crap(knowingly/and not) from China.
1. Crappy documentation and no schematics=unrepairable, uncalibratable.

Try to get schematics for any device from Tektronix, Lecroy or Agilent manufactured after 2000.

2. Buy a piece of test equipment=bad support, no support.

A piece of equipment which can't work without support is crap to begin with.

4. Most of the Chinese branded components have no real Web presence,
no guaranteed specs, and no warranties.

I'm not against buying "no brand"parts from Asia, but caveat emptor!
Do your homework and know who you are buying from.

You can buy Chinese equipment from local dealers all over the world.

When it comes to your reference equipment, DMMs, Counters, Generators, Power Supplies, Scopes,
concentrate on the quality. Don't be suckers. Quality is directly proportional to cost.
When it comes to investing in a serious electronics bench, go with the brand names that withstand
the test of time, or can prove with specs., warranty, and reputation that they are worth dropping
money on.

For me it is simple: I use my equipment to earn a living. Nowadays I buy mostly new Chinese equipment instead of used equipment. The reason is simple: the Chinese equipment offers the best price/performance ratio. With prices at least twice as cheap as the big A-brands you'd be a fool to buy something from one of the big A brands. They have their equipment made in China as well so in case of bugs/problems some firmware engineer in China has to fix it. The only thing the Chinese do by selling directly is cutting out an extra layer of overhead which does not add significant value other than a warm & fuzzy feeling because the badge says 'big A brand' instead of 'OneHungLo'.

And even if the life span of Chinese equipment is significantly shorter I can buy the latest & greatest a few years later and still spend less money compared to buying a piece of 'big A-brand' equipment which is outdated by that time. I've seen it many times: people start their own business and as soon as they have saved some money they buy the best Tektronix, Lecroy or Agilent oscilloscope they can afford and still consider it a high quality piece of equipment when in fact it is an outdated piece of crap ready for the dumpster. I change (upgrade) my oscilloscopes faster than my cars.

edit: typos

[tinhead]

Chinese Junk

OK. let me have it!

the biggest chinese junk was to borrow lend US of Idiocracy about 1.2 trillion $, and then to hear how crap china and how great US  are

[Macbeth]

the biggest chinese junk was to borrow lend US of Idiocracy about 1.2 trillion $, and then to hear how crap china and how great US  are

Lots of native English speakers get the borrow/lend thing the wrong way round too!

[edy]

There are a few things going on here.... Quality and design consistency issues are the core problem and lack of proper regulation and safety enforcement. When stuff used to be made all over the world, we had crap coming from everywhere. As the Chinese labor cost beat everyone out, more and more manufacturing was moved there, along with inconsistency. Meanwhile the stuff that remained made *outside* of China had to be better quality to justify the higher cost, otherwise they would offer no advantage vs. Chinese made stuff.

So you have this "illusion" that all Chinese stuff is crap while the rest of the world makes quality. The truth is, you have every range of quality coming out of China... from good to bad... and often cheaper than if it was made elsewhere. But we think the rest of the world somehow is better when all we are really seeing are the "survivors" in the electronic industry that had no choice but to ensure their products were built a certain way to justify the higher cost considering their Chinese competitors now control a much bigger piece of the business (including all the lower end) so they could only compete on the high end.