Chinese Junk-a Provocative Challenge. Give your best shot!

[Wuerstchenhund]

Try to get schematics for any device from Tektronix, Lecroy or Agilent manufactured after 2000.

Not sure what are you talking about. For example, schematics for LeCroy WaveRunner 2, 6000 and WavePro (all made after 2000, the WaveRunner 6000 did come out in 2004) can be found on the internet. Service Manuals and schematics for newer LeCroy scopes up to the latest ones (although I'm not sure if this includes the crappy WaveAce Series of Siglent rebadges) can be bought from LeCroy if you're a business servicing scopes (LeCroy scopes usually come with 3 years warranty and after that are supported for at least 7 years, and during that period they keep their fingers on Service documentation).

At work I have also seen schematics for Tek and Agilent scopes which came out long after 2000.

The only difference nowadays is that schematics aren't necessarily part of Service Manuals any more and that manufacturers don't give them away as freely as they did 15 years ago. On the other side due to their complexity (lots of highly integrated components) of modern scopes (especially highend ones) schematics have become a lot less useful than in the old days of simple analog scopes with discrete through-hole PCBs.

Of course this might be different for what nowadays are throw-away items like DMMs, but for most of the expensive kit schematics are available.

[nctnico]

So basically there are no schematics unless you are lucky and someone 'leaked' them on the internet. Things are different if you are a repair business but it would take some serious cash and an NDA to get the schematics. That means unavailable to me.

[dannyf]

Base line - we are giving away our engineering.

But let's blame somebody else for that, .


Seriously, I agree with you.

[Co6aka]

I think the topic beginner should learn some basic economics first.

If everyone understood how the modern debt-based fiat currency system functions, then ALL would be clear. It's not about economics, it's about the Benjamins, Renminbi, Euro, etc.    People around the world are "trained" to believe that whoever dies with the most wins, because that makes them obedient/compliant workers.

What people around the world are oblivious to is that money, among other things, is a store of value over time. What the makers-of-stuff are being paid with is CURRENCY, which is an IOU that inherently devalues over time, and eventually to its intrinsic value. (Research and study why this is so.) Ironically, much like the cheap crap that breaks the first time it's used!    The sad truth is that whoever dies with the most currency loses, and whoever exchanged the currency (for goods, services, assets, etc) wins.

Also, makers-of-quality-stuff, wherever located and whether or not cognizant of the "currency" problem, desire/expect to be appropriately compensated, unless such an inconvenient desire/expectation can be mitigated by something like hunger, etc. 

[Wuerstchenhund]

So basically there are no schematics unless you are lucky and someone 'leaked' them on the internet.

No, not really. Probably even less so than in the past.

Things are different if you are a repair business but it would take some serious cash and an NDA to get the schematics. That means unavailable to me.

You don't need an NDA to get schematics for an old product from Tek, Agilent or LeCroy. Sorry but that is nonsense, unless we're talking about prototypes or research products.

And as to money involved, well I don't know what you consider to be "serious cash" but for example I remember a quote of approx £180 for the Service Manual with schematics for a LeCroy SDA 6000A, a scope that depending on where you look still goes for £8k+. I also remember that the Service Manual with schematics for the mid range scopes (i.e. WaveRunner 6000) was roughly £80 a year ago. It's now available for free because LeCroy has given them to the Moderator of the LeCroy Yahoo group for dissemination (so no, it's *not* a "leak"). More such manuals are released on a as-requested basis for devices that are outside the main support cycle (LeCroy seems to use the Yahoo group to interface with hobbyists and private user of their older gear for now).

Of course it's a bit more difficult with devices that are still inside primary support, as manufacturers prefer to perform repairs of their current kit themselves (but often they are also the only ones who can actually repair it!) and don't want 3rd parties to attempt repairs which might cause more damage than good, so they keep their fingers on the schematics. But considering that most devices that are inside primary support are relatively young and therefore still of higher remaining value (and often even inside their warranty) I can't really see why anyone would need schematics for such devices. And once the devices in question become older and get outside main support then schematics will become much easier to obtain.

All this is not much different from say 20 years ago. I remember very well that we had to *buy* the service manuals and schematics for a lot of our T&M gear (especially the more expensive kit, cheap kit often came with schematics for some reason), and this wasn't particularly cheap. Even worse, these manuals usually had to be bought over our inhouse calibration department as most manufacturers would only sell the service manuals to them.

Of course later when kit from that aera got older the service manuals found their ways into private hands. In fact, a large part of service manuals and schematics which is available on the internet for kit made *before* 2000 was the result of actual "leaks" from repair shops and calibration laboratories, and not because the manufacurers originally wanted to release them to everyone.

[all_repair]

I think the topic beginner should learn some basic economics first.

If everyone understood how the modern debt-based fiat currency system functions, then ALL would be clear. It's not about economics, it's about the Benjamins, Renminbi, Euro, etc.    People around the world are "trained" to believe that whoever dies with the most wins, because that makes them obedient/compliant workers.

What people around the world are oblivious to is that money, among other things, is a store of value over time. What the makers-of-stuff are being paid with is CURRENCY, which is an IOU that inherently devalues over time, and eventually to its intrinsic value. (Research and study why this is so.) Ironically, much like the cheap crap that breaks the first time it's used!    The sad truth is that whoever dies with the most currency loses, and whoever exchanged the currency (for goods, services, assets, etc) wins.

Also, makers-of-quality-stuff, wherever located and whether or not cognizant of the "currency" problem, desire/expect to be appropriately compensated, unless such an inconvenient desire/expectation can be mitigated by something like hunger, etc. 

I like how you put it.  It give me no hesistation to pick up yet another multimeter, thermocam, etc.

Seriously, you are not wrong, find a good debt to owe is the name of the game.

[dannyf]

IOU that inherently devalues over time, and eventually to its intrinsic value.

How can you contradict yourself in two consecutive sentences?

(Research and study why this is so.)

Sure. That's why such research / study are wrong.

[microe]

In fact, as I know, Chinese products are not such terrible, my SIGLENT oscilloscope and generator performs perfectly and their after-sale service is quite good. Its quality is beyond the price.

[microe]

Try to get schematics for any device from Tektronix, Lecroy or Agilent manufactured after 2000.

Not sure what are you talking about. For example, schematics for LeCroy WaveRunner 2, 6000 and WavePro (all made after 2000, the WaveRunner 6000 did come out in 2004) can be found on the internet. Service Manuals and schematics for newer LeCroy scopes up to the latest ones (although I'm not sure if this includes the crappy WaveAce Series of Siglent rebadges) can be bought from LeCroy if you're a business servicing scopes (LeCroy scopes usually come with 3 years warranty and after that are supported for at least 7 years, and during that period they keep their fingers on Service documentation).

At work I have also seen schematics for Tek and Agilent scopes which came out long after 2000.

The only difference nowadays is that schematics aren't necessarily part of Service Manuals any more and that manufacturers don't give them away as freely as they did 15 years ago. On the other side due to their complexity (lots of highly integrated components) of modern scopes (especially highend ones) schematics have become a lot less useful than in the old days of simple analog scopes with discrete through-hole PCBs.

Of course this might be different for what nowadays are throw-away items like DMMs, but for most of the expensive kit schematics are available.

I think you always like to compare the low price end with the high end products. May be you are rich and your work is relevant to some high-tech, you think only the high-end can meet your request. But I want to tell you is that the T-shirt don't fit you is not because this T-shirt is a crap, it's because you don't fit for it, OK? Someone will be fit for the T-shirt you dislike, just liek the oscilloscopes you look down upon. It fit s for someone, though not you. So please, stop be so harsh.

[Vgkid]

We need the popcorn smiley for this thread.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I think you always like to compare the low price end with the high end products. May be you are rich and your work is relevant to some high-tech, you think only the high-end can meet your request. But I want to tell you is that the T-shirt don't fit you is not because this T-shirt is a crap, it's because you don't fit for it, OK? Someone will be fit for the T-shirt you dislike, just liek the oscilloscopes you look down upon. It fit s for someone, though not you. So please, stop be so harsh.

I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Maybe you could read again what I wrote and tell me where I "look down on something" when I talk about how schematics are available, that's really a far stretch to make. In fact, I didn't write a single word about "high-end" vs "low-end", it was simply about schematics. So sorry but I am really not sure what you're on about.

I also find your uncalled for attack rather rude and insulting. If you have something productive to contribute to this discussion then do. If you're here to insult people then please go away and annoy someone else. And if you're here to troll then I'm pretty sure you will be removed from this forum very quickly.

[ronniegogs]

Just to clarify. I live in Singapore and Mandarin is the most common Chinese language spoken by almost 50% of the people here. Hokkien is the most commonly spoken dialect here in addition to standard Mandarin.

Cantonese is very different and mostly common in Hongkong and Macau. I am not quoting wiki or any website, this is just purely the truth. Just so people know.

Back to topic. Chinese products are making quite an impact on the markets currently. I have a Xiaomi Mi3 phone which is a 2.3 Ghz quad core phone with 2 gb Ram for 250 USD without contract and it can hold its ground against any 600-800 dollar phone.

Do not under estimate a new cheaper competitor assuming quality, value or whatever factor. They can be improved and have been improving.

Classic examples of this happening countless times in past which wiped industries off
1) Quartz Crisis : Swiss watch manufactures had maximum market. A Swiss engineer developed the quartz technology and they found it to be of lesser quality and worthless and didn't protect it. Enter Seiko and Timex. They wipe off swiss manufacturers. Old family owned businesses go bankrupt. Now they are just a new luxury watches cathering to small niche market owned by big brands like swatch and timex groups.
2) Japanese cars : Well you know the story. Now Toyota cars are lean manufacturing are industry standards used by almost all.
3) Digital camera blunder by Kodak who didn't become the first to embrace it even though they made the first digital camera cause they thought it will eat into sales of film cameras. Bankrupt now.

I like to keep an open mind but with Chinese products its already becoming apparent.
I am typing on a computer, using a phone (iphone and chinese phone), using a DSLR, TV, router etc all manufactured in China. Which is the real factory of the world. Of course there are different qualities and values but that is the case with almost everything.

[Kjelt]

It is not always possible for a company to move into another new domain when their main business changes and retain their place in the top. Most companies do NOT succeed in this.

Concerning your list, the japanese cars have excellent mechanics and logistics but their software (another domain they did not adapt) was crap, as some investigations in the last years have found out.

[ronniegogs]

Well the domain was the same it was the decisions of the bean counters which had a close mind which ruined these companies or industries. Its always a good idea to keep an open mind and not make a decision based on theory like Chinese manufactured is Junk.

As a hobbyist a person is entitled to make his own decision and he very much should as it doesn't really matter. It matters when large industries make mistakes based on preconceived notions.

I have worked with procurement and sourcing and decisions to buy a product atleast in my company is just based on quality and has nothing to do with nationality or where its manufactured. Need accuracy, safety, ex proof equipment just buy something which is certified. Doesn't matter where its manufactured.

Back to hobbyist me. I love RC, building helicopters and planes. I dont want to spend huge on multimeters and oscilloscopes. Chinese options give me the accuracy and reliability which I need. So I will consider them quite suited for me.

[Precipice]

You don't need an NDA to get schematics for an old product from Tek, Agilent or LeCroy. Sorry but that is nonsense, unless we're talking about prototypes or research products.

Cool. How would I go about getting schematics for Tek DSA602 and 11302 oscilloscopes? Both are long out of production and unsupported, and mine are starting to fail.

[Kjelt]

Well the domain was the same

I mean the application domain, for instance IBM from mechanical calculators to electromechanical calculators to analogue electronic calculators to digital electronic calculators and computers, all different domains.

I have worked with procurement and sourcing and decisions to buy a product atleast in my company is just based on quality and has nothing to do with nationality or where its manufactured. Need accuracy, safety, ex proof equipment just buy something which is certified. Doesn't matter where its manufactured.

And still you can loose your business by buying it without the proper NDA's and exclusive rights. Again IBM with their PC if they had protected the BIOS, had a decent contract with MS owning the rights and Intel making a little proprietary change in the instruction set of the 8086 exclusively for them and the history as we now know it would have looked entirely differently.

[eas]

Base line - we are giving away our engineering.

But let's blame somebody else for that, .

Seriously, I agree with you.

"Our" engineering?  Whose engineering is that? Exactly.

The way this has worked since the dawn of the industrial age is that the owners have sent the machines to the areas where labor was cheaper. It happened with textiles. First the mills moved to other areas of England, then the NE US (among other places), and then into the South (some of the old NE textile mills buildings ended up being home to earlier phases of the US tech industry. Now its in coastal China. It will likely be in Africa after that. Along the way though, expertise ends up being spread around.

Guess what?  That's not a horrible thing. If development spreads quickly and widely enough then the wage differentials that are used to squeeze the middle and working classes (who generally have ties to their communities, whereas machines and capital don't) shrink and with them, the leverage that pushes down wages and moves jobs over-seas.

A good engineer should keep in mind that, historically, the economy isn't a zero-sum game. Engineering and innovation make the pie bigger, rather than just moving crumbs around. It might help thought if, rather than having "productivity" (ie putting people out of work) as one of the key parameters driving projects, we focused more on building systems that provided productive work to people with a range of skills and aptitudes. Of course, there might be fewer people to look down on; Personally, I'm Ok with that.

But enough of that.  US companies selling a wide range of goods were in such a hurry to take advantage of cheap Chinese labor that they failed to maintain quality control and have undermined their brands as a result, perhaps permanently. So, why is it that I should spend twice as much on something that has a roughly equal chance of sucking?

[ronniegogs]

Ofcourse you need to protect your intellectual property if you have the right. Quartz crisis which I mentioned before could have looked very different if the swiss watch manufacturers had paid heed to new technology and protected it.

My main point is towards the main topic "Chinese Junk-a Provocative Challenge. Give your best shot!". Product are based on need. A 15-30k normal oscilloscope can be very high spec and quality but I am not going to be dropping money on it as it is not value for money for me as a cheaper supposedly junk equipment can get the job done for me just fine. A cheaper UNI-T or Siglent equipment gives me sufficient accuracy for the price and needs. They are priced and perform exactly what their intended market expects them. In fact these "junk" equipment are the reason many people students and hobbyist are getting into EE as previously it was way too expensive for normal folks to buy equipment like this for a hobby or small scale developments.

[tautech]

In fact these "junk" equipment are the reason many people students and hobbyist are getting into EE as previously it was way too expensive for normal folks to buy equipment like this for a hobby or small scale developments.

Exactly, whats more some hobbyists are becoming aware the older equipment that previously was all they could afford can be a reliability nightmare. Once old gear was the ONLY option, not so today.

[Wuerstchenhund]

You don't need an NDA to get schematics for an old product from Tek, Agilent or LeCroy. Sorry but that is nonsense, unless we're talking about prototypes or research products.

Cool. How would I go about getting schematics for Tek DSA602 and 11302 oscilloscopes? Both are long out of production and unsupported, and mine are starting to fail.

Don't know. Ask Tek? If schematics exist then they should have it, assuming they haven't already disposed of them. If not then even an NDA wouldn't make them suddenly available.

BTW: you are aware that the point I was adressing in my reply to ntnico's post was about kit made *after* 2000, right? The DSA600 and 11302 are closer to 1982 vintage. So if schematics for them aren't available then this only serves as a very good example that the availability of schematics isn't necessarily better for kit made before 2000, which contradicts what ntnico has suggested.

And for kit that old it could well be that even Tek has no longer any documentation on them.

[nctnico]

The year 2000 was choosen more or less arbitrarily. Tektronix stopped providing schematics much earlier.

[Wuerstchenhund]

The year 2000 was choosen more or less arbitrarily.

I see.

Tektronix stopped providing schematics much earlier.

As I said I remember that even in the old days we had to pay for service manuals and schematics.

I haven't dealt with Tek for a long time (and never as individual) but considering that they are not really targeting the hobbyist market (and the apparent contempt they showed to the low end market by trying to flog off their 15 year old designs) I wouldn't be all too surprised if they can't be bothered to make their schematics (which they certainly have for all their kit) available to individuals. Probably even less so after they became assimilated by Danaher.

But these problems haven't really changed over the years. Schematics for most kit will eventually find its way into individuals' hands when the kit has become obsolete, while for some devices there won't ever be any schematics available. But that's life.

[microe]

I think you always like to compare the low price end with the high end products. May be you are rich and your work is relevant to some high-tech, you think only the high-end can meet your request. But I want to tell you is that the T-shirt don't fit you is not because this T-shirt is a crap, it's because you don't fit for it, OK? Someone will be fit for the T-shirt you dislike, just liek the oscilloscopes you look down upon. It fit s for someone, though not you. So please, stop be so harsh.

I'm really not sure what you're talking about. Maybe you could read again what I wrote and tell me where I "look down on something" when I talk about how schematics are available, that's really a far stretch to make. In fact, I didn't write a single word about "high-end" vs "low-end", it was simply about schematics. So sorry but I am really not sure what you're on about.

I also find your uncalled for attack rather rude and insulting. If you have something productive to contribute to this discussion then do. If you're here to insult people then please go away and annoy someone else. And if you're here to troll then I'm pretty sure you will be removed from this forum very quickly.

Wow, such a strong threaten. I even didn't use a Word is about insulting. I think I am much rationality. I wouldn't call the products which don't fit me is  "crap".

"(although I'm not sure if this includes the crappy WaveAce Series of Siglent rebadges)"

Did you say this ?  So please, I even used please, dont't insult the hard work by other people, though you don't like it. Easy

[Wuerstchenhund]

Wow, such a strong threaten. I even didn't use a Word is about insulting. I think I am much rationality. I wouldn't call the products which don't fit me is  "crap".

"(although I'm not sure if this includes the crappy WaveAce Series of Siglent rebadges)"

Did you say this ? 

I called the WaveAce Series "crappy" because that is what it is. Don't believe me? Have a look here: And that's only a part of a series.

What LeCroy did was buying some $400 Sglent scope and selling them on for over $1k. The scope from the video was eventually taken back by LeCroy because they couldn't sort out the issues.

Some of the newer Siglent scopes (i.e. the SDS1000CML) which have been re-badged as WaveAce aren't bad for a scope that is $400 (as the Siglent originals are sold for). But the LeCroy equivalent isn't sold for $400, it's closer to $1500, and no matter how much you try to polish a turd, for $1500 it's a pretty crap scope.

So please, I even used please, dont't insult the hard work by other people, though you don't like it. Easy

Yeah, well, even scammers put in hard work, so saying you shouldn't critizise the result because of that is stupid, really, as it means with that argument you're never allowed to critizise anything or anyone, ever.

As to the WaveAce Series, it's not that LeCroy puts much effort into them, as all the hardware and software comes from Siglent.


But all this aside: I don't know how it is in your country but in most of the countries the people here come from freedom of speech is a very essential pillar of society, and your attempt to force your own moral values on others and to censor other opinions can be seen as crossing a line of being offensive. Words like "crap" and "shit" as a description of equipment make regular appearance in this forum (try a search if you don't believe me), and people here take it as it is - an expression of opinion. This community thrives because members are free to express themselves as long as certain (legal) boundaries are not exceeded.

However, it's pretty offensive not only to me but also to the whole EEV community when a newbie like you expects that everyone follows your personal sensibilities and moral values. So I suggest you either adapt or find some other place which better fits your expectations. Either way, it's not your business how I express my opinion.

[tautech]

But all this aside: I don't know how it is in your country but in most of the countries the people here come from freedom of speech is a very essential pillar of society, and your attempt to force your own moral values on others and to censor other opinions can be seen as crossing a line of being offensive. Words like "crap" and "shit" as a description of equipment make regular appearance in this forum (try a search if you don't believe me), and people here take it as it is - an expression of opinion. This community thrives because members are free to express themselves as long as certain (legal) boundaries are not exceeded.

However, it's pretty offensive not only to me but also to the whole EEV community when a newbie like you expects that everyone follows your personal sensibilities and moral values. So I suggest you either adapt or find some other place which better fits your expectations. Either way, it's not your business how I express my opinion.

Harsh.
For all you know he has been in electronics longer than you or me.
And as you and I are, entitled to voice his opinion.

And if you want to sling insults at TE and pricing, check this out:
http://nz.rs-online.com/web/p/digital-oscilloscopes/7158686/
$1500 for an now old base design that your mentioned $400 Siglent might show up.

And if you treat newbies in this sort of fashion, you might be the one seeking "a place that better fits your expectations".