Author Topic: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....  (Read 12237 times)

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Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« on: November 12, 2022, 11:58:42 pm »
Hi guys,

first post here but a few topics I read were really informative and then there was this video from David which was just, well.... fun lol

https://youtu.be/gh1n_ELmpFI


https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/choosing-between-fluke-179177-vs-keysight-u1242c-vs-fluke-87v/?all


So basically it's as the topic says.... :)


I think the biggest issue that I'm having is which brand / model / price point should I even be looking at.

It's really crazy but I haven't used any form of electrical/electronic test equipment since my uni days now 20 or so years ago :(

Back then we had had a few simple benchtop meters but most of the stuff we did relied on using CRO's.... yep the old Ray Tubes ;) - actually we had a newer Techtronix LCD scope too but we had to share that one out. We also got to play with HP Spectrum Analyzers which were awesome and I still have images of that to this day. It was a big beast with Ray Tube and dot matrix printer attached... I loved it!! :D


Reminiscing aside, I'm trying to find a decent multimeter. After my uni days I switched over to computer server and enterprise network stuff so that's why I've been out of touch for eons.

Really what prompted this was a few years we renovated our house so the aspiring engineer and kid in me decided to redesign the building electrical layout and add some form of intelligence to the place. Well.. it ended up with a 200 page manual and me having to teach the certified electrician about electro physics 101 lol  :-DD - he was crying as he didn't understand anything and especially as I went and grabbed a whole bunch of industrial components and enclosures to rig up what ended up being a 6ft / 2 meter high electrical distribution/automation panel that virtually now runs the whole house  :palm:


Anyway, designing and building the whole thing was a lot of fun but now when it comes down to testing things, without a DMM I am both blind and deaf figuratively speaking of course.

It definitely would have helped somewhat during my Pine64 project which clocks the house to NTP via GPS and was basically a crapshoot trying to get the RS232 signal down to UART based TTL levels. I ended up going through multiple converter boards till I got the system to behave properly. Having a scope would have definitely been a benefit here!!

Here is that project by the way:

https://www.dropbox.com/sh/q1wduvvc1ci2aly/AADMHIIauoIPVNXNoC9BLX-ja?dl=0


Ramblings and musing over history aside, what I'm looking for is a high quality DMM that will be an 'all rounder'.... good for Low Voltage (as in not 3-phase or KV levels in power generation) mains measurements so at the minimum CAT III compliant and ULV (ultra low voltage) AC/DC stuff. Mainly DC though at levels of around 5,12,24V.

Not sure if I need anything more sophisticated then the basic measurements of voltage, current and resistance, though continuity is a must - a 9V battery and bulb that they use to teach kids how electricity works is as David would say "a PITA"  :).


I can definitely say that it's not worth me paying for high end features that I'm not gona use, though at this stage I'm not really sure what I will use. From what I have read and David explained in the video, the Sample and Hold function is pretty useful and it seems that Fluke have the best version of this feature.

The models that lead me here were the following:

* Keysight U1233A
* Fluke 11x series
* Greenlee DM-860A

Of course the Fluke 87V is highly praised by many people as a great all-rounder and it might just be the one to go for, but my question is really do I need it??

I know Greenlee products well as I own several tools from them for network cabling and testing and I really like them. On the other hand the DMM I mentioned is 1KV CAT II  but does have the HBC fuses mentioned in David's video.

Another option which was mentioned in the forum thread I posted above was the Bryman VM869s which is CAT IV rated for 1KV and seems to be a favorite among many, though others say Fluke 87V.

There are so many brands and so many models it's like trying to find a needle in a haystack right now.


I would really appreciate any ones input on which direction to go in here....


I guess my preference would be something solid and built well over features that at this stage I won't use however attractive the looks and display of the meter are lol <- I mean the Fluke 287 and 289 are really gorgeous but I probably won't ever need the data logging functions
Equally I like the looks of the Keysight U1250 models but they are probably way overkill for what I need


Thanks in advance :)
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #1 on: November 13, 2022, 12:03:26 am »
Hi and welcome to the forum...

Lots of text but the main thing you seem to have somehow forgotten:

Quote
....are probably way overkill for what I need

And what are your needs ?  ;)
 
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Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #2 on: November 13, 2022, 12:15:28 am »
Hi, thank you for the response... sorry if I wasn't clear... I thought I did say??

Basically I want something to be able to measure voltage, current, resistance, and continuity with; hence DMM.

The voltage rating should be able to work at mains AC levels as well as lower voltage levels at DC.

That's basically it. Mainly the most use will probably be to identify volt drops in wiring and finding out if there is a closed or open circuit between connections.


Forgive me if I'm not explaining very well... I tend to get brainlocked easily :(


If there is still something I am leaving out or more specific information that I need to provide but am not, please let me know ;)
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #3 on: November 13, 2022, 12:19:33 am »
Don't expect to find a combination of a good electronics DMM and a good mains DMM. For electronics a good option is to get a cheap 4.5 digits bench DMM like the Vici VC8145. No more changing batteries and you can put it in a stack with other equipment that is stationary on your bench. I have a 6.5 digit Keysight DMM as well but the VC8145 is my daily driver DMM; it is just more convenient to use.

For mains work, buy something simple from Fluke, Tektronix, Hioki or Keysight; a brand that you can trust to back the safety ratings.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 12:22:47 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Brumby

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #4 on: November 13, 2022, 12:22:31 am »
I also welcome you to the forum!

Really what prompted this was a few years we renovated our house so the aspiring engineer and kid in me decided to redesign the building electrical layout and add some form of intelligence to the place. Well.. it ended up with a 200 page manual and me having to teach the certified electrician about electro physics 101 lol  :-DD - he was crying as he didn't understand anything and especially as I went and grabbed a whole bunch of industrial components and enclosures to rig up what ended up being a 6ft / 2 meter high electrical distribution/automation panel that virtually now runs the whole house  :palm:
Oh - you SO belong here!!!!   :-+
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #5 on: November 13, 2022, 12:26:17 am »
Hi,

Quote
If there is still something I am leaving out or more specific information that I need to provide but am not, please let me know

To be honest, this is not "user-friendly"... ;)
It´s up to you to define what YOU want to do with it and in which ranges, how accurate it should be and how much you are willing to spend for.
What you said before, nearly ALL Meters on the planet can do this... ;)
 
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Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #6 on: November 13, 2022, 01:04:52 am »
Quote
Hi,

Quote
If there is still something I am leaving out or more specific information that I need to provide but am not, please let me know

To be honest, this is not "user-friendly"... ;)
It´s up to you to define what YOU want to do with it and in which ranges, how accurate it should be and how much you are willing to spend for.
What you said before, nearly ALL Meters on the planet can do this... ;)

I really apologies for being so vague, I feel so tongue tied right now and just can't seem to explain anything well at all :(

It's probably like @nctnico suggested, that I should get a basic or entry level meter but one of high quality. As I explained previously, I haven't used any form of electrical or electronics test equipment for around 20 years now so am pretty out of sync with everything....

Maybe it is just worth looking at the Fluke 113 or Keysight U1233A


This is the type of stuff am doing right now:


Mainly it's mostly testing cables and voltages with these things.
 

Online J-R

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #7 on: November 13, 2022, 01:14:51 am »
It doesn't sound like money is a major concern, so I suspect like me you might be much happier with at least a few DMMs eventually to cover all the bases.  Some of my all-time favorite DMMs are drastically different, so here is my short list of must-haves for me personally:
- Brymen BM27s Pocket Multimeter (also found under other brandings):  Just an amazing product given the size, has auto-check, NCV detection.  https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM27s-Pocket-Multimeter
- EEVblog 121GW: despite some minor gripes and some love/hate from forum members, this is really an impressive, feature-packed DMM.  A recent hack to change the mode memory behavior is pretty cool. https://www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/
- 34401A (various generations): Still a popular choice, get an older one in good condition for stability and have it calibrated and obtain the calibration data to better know what is what.  (not sure what store might be best for your country)

Of course those are my favorites, but having something along the lines of each of those three is really going to be handy.
 

Online J-R

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #8 on: November 13, 2022, 01:31:54 am »
Some quick comments on the DMMs mentioned that I have personally:

- Keysight U1233A: slightly interesting product, adjustable voltage detection is pretty good, display backlight and flashlight are rough IMHO, has a major flaw in that it absolutely cannot display 600uA to 1mA DC or 600uA to 300mA AC.
- Fluke 87V: good, reliable, safe, gets the job done at the end of the day, not my first choice for electronics, but could be a reasonable option for electrical stuff and does work for electronics if needed.

You will want to get a current clamp of some sort, either a stand-alone clamp that can connect to your DMMs or a clamp meter.  Some to check out:
- Amprobe AMP-25: compact clamp meter, no leads
- Amprobe AMP-330: bigger, fully-featured clamp/DMM
- Brymen BM-037: small, fully functional clamp/DMM
- Fluke 771: get this used, awesome for very low-current DC
 

Online nctnico

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #9 on: November 13, 2022, 01:36:34 am »
Some quick comments on the DMMs mentioned that I have personally:

- Keysight U1233A: slightly interesting product, adjustable voltage detection is pretty good, display backlight and flashlight are rough IMHO, has a major flaw in that it absolutely cannot display 600uA to 1mA DC or 600uA to 300mA AC.
Maybe a U1242 is a better choice. I choose this to be my one and only portable DMM. I like my DMMs to have at least 4.5 digits.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 01:47:19 am by nctnico »
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #10 on: November 13, 2022, 01:45:28 am »
It doesn't sound like money is a major concern, so I suspect like me you might be much happier with at least a few DMMs eventually to cover all the bases.  Some of my all-time favorite DMMs are drastically different, so here is my short list of must-haves for me personally:
- Brymen BM27s Pocket Multimeter (also found under other brandings):  Just an amazing product given the size, has auto-check, NCV detection.  https://www.welectron.com/Brymen-BM27s-Pocket-Multimeter
- EEVblog 121GW: despite some minor gripes and some love/hate from forum members, this is really an impressive, feature-packed DMM.  A recent hack to change the mode memory behavior is pretty cool. https://www.eevblog.com/product/121gw/
- 34401A (various generations): Still a popular choice, get an older one in good condition for stability and have it calibrated and obtain the calibration data to better know what is what.  (not sure what store might be best for your country)

Of course those are my favorites, but having something along the lines of each of those three is really going to be handy.


You're probably right there....

I mean yeah sure I am pretty poor at explaining things and my needs in general (unfortunately it is a legitimate medical condition) and had so much difficulty when trying to even choose a camera to pursue my hobby in photography. Eventually I ended up with 2 different systems, so I guess it's gona be the same for the DMM.

In that there's no one size fits all option....


It seems that many people really like the Brymen BM869s: http://www.brymen.com/PD02BM860s_869s.html

I have checked pricing and it's actually quite reasonable at only around $200


Actually having just checked the pocket BM27s, not only is it cute but it might even work out as a good tester once I build up my astrophotography rig which will basically be lots of 12V connections. Not sure if I'll build another Pine64 SBC yet for that purpose (as in Astro imaging controller, with custom LCD display) but even having a decent meter like the 869s will make trouble shooting so much easier

Right now it's kinda hard to figure out which meter will be the best to start with.... that's a challenge in on to itself  :scared:

Some quick comments on the DMMs mentioned that I have personally:

- Keysight U1233A: slightly interesting product, adjustable voltage detection is pretty good, display backlight and flashlight are rough IMHO, has a major flaw in that it absolutely cannot display 600uA to 1mA DC or 600uA to 300mA AC.
- Fluke 87V: good, reliable, safe, gets the job done at the end of the day, not my first choice for electronics, but could be a reasonable option for electrical stuff and does work for electronics if needed.

You will want to get a current clamp of some sort, either a stand-alone clamp that can connect to your DMMs or a clamp meter.  Some to check out:
- Amprobe AMP-25: compact clamp meter, no leads
- Amprobe AMP-330: bigger, fully-featured clamp/DMM
- Brymen BM-037: small, fully functional clamp/DMM
- Fluke 771: get this used, awesome for very low-current DC


Hmm.... you might have a good point here too...

In the main DIN panel that I am using for my switchboard, I'm actually using Carlo Gavazzi energy meters per circuit, they are the single module version of this one:

https://www.gavazzionline.com/pdf/EM112DS.pdf

I'm then logging that information via ModBUS protocol to again a Carlo data logger then bring up the readings in my building control software.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #11 on: November 13, 2022, 01:47:07 am »
Concerning the last post of the OP, 4.5 digits wasn´t really interesting... ;)
At work we got for "general purposes" the fluke 115/117 meter.
It´s robust, it got the known fluke quality and I think, it´s more than enough to fulfil his needs.
Easy to use...
Not so expensive...
Could be the right choice.

Online nctnico

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #12 on: November 13, 2022, 01:50:15 am »
The advantage of having 4.5 digits is that you can still read mA fluctuations using the 10A current range. And since the 10A range typically is unfused (or has a >10 fuse), you don't run the risk of blowing a fuse unlike on the lower current ranges.
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #13 on: November 13, 2022, 02:05:26 am »
Concerning the last post of the OP, 4.5 digits wasn´t really interesting... ;)
At work we got for "general purposes" the fluke 115/117 meter.
It´s robust, it got the known fluke quality and I think, it´s more than enough to fulfil his needs.
Easy to use...
Not so expensive...
Could be the right choice.

Just going through the Fluke 117 specs now: https://www.fluke.com/en-gb/product/electrical-testing/digital-multimeters/fluke-117

Actually this might work out well? It has an 11A fuse and 400 hour battery life. It also uses a 9V battery which is the same as my Greenlee network test equipment so that's a little bonus.

@Martin72 from the images this little guy looks quite compact. Is it actually on the small side or are the pictures deceiving? If it is small it may be a good thing from a practicality point of view too.....


If everyone wants to have a nice giggle, I dug these images out from my storage archives. You can see what stuff I was playing around with way back when haha :)
 

Offline BillyO

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #14 on: November 13, 2022, 02:05:40 am »
Also look at the Brymen BM78X series (also available in the blue EEVblog version),  I think it hits all your requirements.
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Offline BillyO

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #15 on: November 13, 2022, 02:08:54 am »
You can see what stuff I was playing around with way back when haha :)
All very nice kit for the time.
Bill  (Currently a Siglent fanboy)
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Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #16 on: November 13, 2022, 02:23:40 am »
First up to everyone, thank you so much for all the help and interaction. I really appreciate it!

Also look at the Brymen BM78X series (also available in the blue EEVblog version),  I think it hits all your requirements.

Just checked it and it looks pretty cool

http://www.brymen.com/images/ProductsList/BM780_List/BM789/BM789_A4.pdf

Price seems to be a bargain compared to Fluke ;) a mere $150 when compared to around $600 for the Fluke 87V

You can see what stuff I was playing around with way back when haha :)
All very nice kit for the time.

As a student I learned a lot and spent so much time in the lab they had a hard time removing me as I never wanted to leave.

I guess @Brumby was probably correct in his statement  :)


Bottom line I guess as with everything is that if you enjoy something, either as a hobby or professionally then it's the right thing for you.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #17 on: November 13, 2022, 02:50:53 am »
Quote
@Martin72 from the images this little guy looks quite compact. Is it actually on the small side or are the pictures deceiving?

It is small, I can take a pic on monday from it in relation of other meters when I´m at work.

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Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #19 on: November 13, 2022, 03:44:21 am »
Is True RMS a necessity? If not then the Fluke 17B+ or the new interaction as 17B Max fits your needs of a reliable, cheap and feature packed DMM.

Problem is it is a exclusive China only Sale, with warranty also only valid in China.

But it is easy to import it from eBay and Aliexpress.

If you can't just sent me a PM and I get one and sent to you (I'm currently living in Mainland China, Shenzhen).
 

Online rsjsouza

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #20 on: November 13, 2022, 03:51:34 am »
Good suggestions around.
In addition to them, the BM857/BM867 are a great all around meter for about $150 (plus shipping from tme.eu) that can serve very well for the mixed electrical/electronics environment.

If you like Greenlee and their lifetime warranty, the DM-510A is a great choice - it is a rebrand of the Brymen BM257A that is also quite favoured here. I have its simpler brother DM-200A and it is a very solid meter. The Greenlee warranty puts it at the same price level as the aforementioned Brymens BM786, BM857 and BM867.

It doesn't seem to be what you are looking for but there are cheaper options from China that have less robustness and protection that are suitable for electronics and the occasional household electric work (compact Richmeters RM113D, high count Aneng AN870, featured Uni-T UT61E, mechanically robust UT139C, UT89X and UT191E)

Good luck with your choice!
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Offline coromonadalix

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #21 on: November 13, 2022, 04:19:56 am »
you have Amprobe  am140 i think or the 160 at 50,000 count  with the "500k counts on some modes"   who use the same chipset than the Brymens  859 - 869

love the fact you don't have to dismantle the meter when the fuse blows up,  you had some Mastech too 22,000 counts
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #22 on: November 13, 2022, 09:01:28 am »
The models that lead me here were the following:

* Keysight U1233A
* Fluke 11x series
* Greenlee DM-860A

Another option which was mentioned in the forum thread I posted above was the Bryman VM869s which is CAT IV rated for 1KV and seems to be a favorite among many

The Greenlee 860A is a Brymen BM869s but rebranded by Greenlee. It's the meter that does everything and has higher safety rating than any Fluke. Do you need all the features? Probably not.

The Keysights seem gimmicky and not very robust, I don't think I'd every buy one. Here's our joe wearing out the switch on a U1282a:

Every Fluke below the 87V is "specialized" (ie. missing some important feature) so you always end up buying the 87V if you want an all-rounder. The 87V isn't good value for money compared to Brymens. eg. The Fluke 113 is great for electrician work but almost useless for small electronics.

The brand you should be looking at for best bang:buck is Brymen. For "simple" I'd recommend a BM857s, it's what I own, it's square, it's industrial, and I'd get another one in a heartbeat if mine ever breaks (which I'm not expecting).

Lastly: Don't feel guilty about not having every last possible feature in your meter (aka "it's only $25 more..." syndrome). If you're not using those features then it's just more button pressing to get to the features you actually use.

You can get Brymen online at brymen.eu at welectron.com

« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 02:20:30 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline nightfire

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #23 on: November 13, 2022, 09:39:00 am »
In my opinion, the stuff the OP wants to do, is:
- Lots of working on electronics projects with emphasis on the 5V-24V range
- sometimes working in environments with about 230VAC and the need of appropriate CAT rating

In this regard, the featureset should be tailored towards the electronics use- upon a certain quality (and price tag) of a DMM the CAT rating will come by itself and being able to measure 230VAC and similar stuff is basic features of any DMM. For Amps measurement a clamp meter or a clam as accessoire to the DMM is a welcome addition.

In this regard, for electronics use on a hobby bench at home, a Fluke 87 is mostly overkill, price-wise, because the main distinguishing feature to other DMMs is its robustness and reputation to be within spec even after 20 years.
On a hobby bench these are not necessarily the main features I would spend my money on. Especially for small voltages (battery charging circuits etc.) I would like to have a DMM with a good resolution, that ist faster than the slow readings of a Fluke 87 at 20.000 counts mode.
Also some stuff like being able to lit LEDs with the diode test is sometimes nice- 3V is needed to make the blue/white LED show some reaction.

Here the mentioned DMMs like U1233A or 11x series from Fluke are nice DMMs, but lack a bit the precision or other features for electronics works (like measuring small currents precisely) as they are intended for maintenance electricians in an industrial environment.
Some Brymen  DMM (why not the 786 and support the eevblog?) probably is cheaper with more features geared towards electronic use and offers the wanted CAT rating.
Other brands that could be worth a look are Hioki (DT4261 or DT4282) or, if there is lots of money burning a hole in the pocket, the actual lineup of Gossen Metrawatt- they got some very nice gizmos lined up with special features, but sadly with a hefty price tag.
 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #24 on: November 13, 2022, 01:58:27 pm »
I don't know what to recommend and although I use the Fluke 87V at work and like it a lot it seems not the right meter for the OP. If I were the OP I would want something with more resolution and accuracy. I found my 189 is better in this regard but it's no longer made and it has poor battery life.
I have both the 287 and 289 and while the OP said their displays are goregeous I think they are hard to read as they have very low contrast.
 


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