Author Topic: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....  (Read 12231 times)

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Offline Fungus

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #25 on: November 13, 2022, 02:21:22 pm »
Other brands that could be worth a look are Hioki (DT4261 or DT4282) or, if there is lots of money burning a hole in the pocket...

Are Hioki "cheap"?  :popcorn:
 

Offline andyB2022

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #26 on: November 13, 2022, 02:29:29 pm »
What is the best Fluke multimeter in your opinion? Please ignore 87V and 289.... I don't see them as the best...
IMO 189 seems the king... long battery life (compared to 289), fast power on (compared to 289), nice accuracy, more counts (vs 87V).
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #27 on: November 13, 2022, 02:34:19 pm »
I don't know what to recommend and although I use the Fluke 87V at work and like it a lot it seems not the right meter for the OP. If I were the OP I would want something with more resolution and accuracy. I found my 189 is better in this regard but it's no longer made and it has poor battery life.
I have both the 287 and 289 and while the OP said their displays are goregeous I think they are hard to read as they have very low contrast.


When I said "gorgeous" I was not referring to the readability or usability but rather the attractiveness of the information displayed.... graphs, tables, plots values - that's what I meant. In a similar sense I find the old DEC VT1xx line of terminals gorgeous, especially the later ones that could display basic graphics like bars. Maybe I am just referring to the high-tech (read geek) factor??

Though I'm probably still stuck in the 80s for my computing preferences as I'm not a fan of point-click at all.... guess that's why I went hardcore into the UNIX world :)
 

Offline nightfire

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #28 on: November 13, 2022, 04:32:12 pm »
Other brands that could be worth a look are Hioki (DT4261 or DT4282) or, if there is lots of money burning a hole in the pocket...

Are Hioki "cheap"?  :popcorn:
Well, depends on the view ;-)
Hioki DT4256 is sold actually in germany (Reichelt) for 214 € incl. sales tax, DT4261 for 271 €- well within the range of a new U123x Keysight or a 11x Fluke.

But yes, bang for buck comes probably from Brymen, that gets the features needed by the OP for well below 200 €.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #29 on: November 13, 2022, 04:34:38 pm »
IMO 189 seems the king...

Nah, the 187 - same as the 189 but no leaky supercap to worry about and won't eat your batteries for breakfast.
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 04:45:35 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #30 on: November 13, 2022, 06:31:28 pm »
Lots more really great suggestions!! :)

Though I'm finding that it's adding to my confusion... in terms of which brand and model

This confusion is probably down to me not having any experience with modern up to date meters so there are a lot of small personal preferences and details that people have which I am over looking. Sort of like buying a car, they all drive (hence my need for a DMM) but they handle completely differently and feel different inside; not to mention equipment levels.

Based on the advice from @nightfire I took a look at Hioki and Gossen Metrawatt

The Hioki 4282 mentioned is around $400 so that's not too bad

I have no idea which model of Gossen but I had a look at the METRAHit 2+ which is around $300, and also some even cheaper models down at the $200 and sub range too. I didn't look at specs but just pricing as I was expecting something in the region of $1500+

The Hioki's seem to have a combined uA and A input - is this ok? Just as the video from David I posted above seems to suggest otherwise...

One thing I do like between the Hioki and Gossen is that they have connector protectors which stops you from inputting the probe lead into the wrong socket.

This might actually be a useful feature for me in the long run. I actually do suffer from hyper anxiety among other issues causing me to go totally blank very quickly almost like a computer crash in terms of full on freeze. It's why I found it so hard to explain things in my initial post and actually got worried that I might start to test peoples patience by sounding like a total dork :(

Here is a current use case of mine where a meter is definitely going to help out a lot:

One of the LED strips that I wired up a few years back was working perfectly fine until a few days ago where I noticed that one of the channels (the cool one) was actually illuminated only dimly. It's a 24V strip that uses PWM as dimming control, I can't remember if it's the voltage or current that's varied to set the levels as they are two types with one being the most common.



Today I reversed the input supply, meaning I took out the wires from the PWM module and instead tested by using a different power supply from the other end of the strip (don't try this at home kids ;) ):



The channel lit up brightly so no problems with the strip at all!

This is how it looks right now when connected to the PWM module:



That's set to 100% brightness


There are other strips wired to the same module output in parallel using their own cables all connected to a Phoenix Contact PTFix connector block:






So not being able to test anything like this properly is frustrating to say the least.

My hunch is that the copper cores of the input feed have oxidized which was the case on the other side of the wall where we had a issue with damp.


It would still be better for me to be able to test the current flowing through to make sure that the output channel of the PWM module hasn't blown slightly causing a reduction in output current spec, or if somehow there is a short between +V and 0V, and also check the voltage to see that there is no volt drop in the circuit.



Just now having checked the Gossen World DMM: https://www.gmc-instruments.de/en/products/measuring-and-test-technology/multimeters-and-handheld-calibrators/basic-digital-instruments/metrahit-world/

it has a 6000 count display, 3V diode tester (which is probably going to be useful for testing the 3.3V LED's I use as power indicators. Price wise it's sort of between $450-500 which is ok but a little light when compared to the count of the Bergman and Hioki meters.

If I was buying on aesthetics alone then I must admit that I do like the Gossens the best :D
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #31 on: November 13, 2022, 07:53:02 pm »
One thing I do like between the Hioki and Gossen is that they have connector protectors which stops you from inputting the probe lead into the wrong socket.

Brymens don't have those physical protectors but they beep loudly at you if the lead is in the wrong socket for the selected range.


Even so: The golden rule of measuring current is to always use the 10A range - the 10A range will usually have mA resolution and 10A fuses are relatively difficult to blow around the house (even if you short out mains AC your circuit breakers will probably be faster than the fuse).

Only use the mA/uA ranges if you've already tried the 10A range and have seen that it's safe.

( Cue all the people who blow 10A fuses on a daily basis...  :popcorn: )
« Last Edit: November 13, 2022, 08:14:31 pm by Fungus »
 

Offline nightfire

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #32 on: November 13, 2022, 08:32:40 pm »
Well, the Metrahit 2+ is a quit basic multimeter, where I suspect it simply exists so that Gossen Metrawatt can claim that they also have something in the basic area- in this regard there are lots of other brands that offer a better bang for buck, unless you are an industrial user and need lots of papertrail including calibration certificates. Gossen Metrawatt DMMs really shine above the 500 € mark, where there are functions inside for very special applications, like isolation testers for telecommunication cabling etc.

When working a lot with PWM signals, it would be useful if the DMM has a duty cycle measuring option available, which would point to the pricier models.
Aaaand: When working a lot in cabinets, some hanger option is very nice to get the hands free- I basically love my Fluke 179 at work for the magnetic hanger option. In my opinion so far the best implementation I have come across.
(Ok, haven't seen the Hioki or Brymen versions, but lots of stuff elsewhere)
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #33 on: November 13, 2022, 11:54:48 pm »
I think I need to rule out Hioki :( :(

I'm not sure how readily available it is locally. Sure I can get it from one of the big electronics suppliers like RS, Farnell, Mouser but that's gona be it I think....

It's a shame because they have very decent specs after checking the models suggested above.


One options could be the Yokogawa TY720/710 models. From what I can tell, they are mid price range devices but have lots of features and good certification for working with higher voltage levels:

https://tmi.yokogawa.com/solutions/products/portable-and-bench-instruments/digital-multimeters/ty720-digital-multimeter/

the display count is 50k with pretty decent accuracy too.


Actually I thought I would have to rule out Gossen too but they do seem to be available locally. Looking at pricing and features of course, the Metrahit AM Pro looks ok but as @nightfire has just suggested, the functionality maybe basic for the price. Yep they have lots of very expensive specialist equipment and even one device which is certified by AIRBUS.

Here's the link: https://www.gmc-instruments.de/en/products/measuring-and-test-technology/multimeters-and-handheld-calibrators/digital-multimeters/universal-multimeters/metrahit-am-series/metrahit-am-pro/


Now depending on local availability I guess the shortlist becomes something like this:

  • Brymen Bm789
    Brymen Bm869s
    Brymen Bm817s
    Yokogawa TY710
    Yokogawa TY720
    Hioki DT4282
    Gossen (model undecided)
    Fluke (model undecided)

Just checking one store, the brands listed of portable models are stuff like Amprobe, TTi, and Megger. Another store has stuff like Chauvin Arnoux, Exatech, Kewtech, Metrel, DiLog, and Uni-T; the only brand that is big that they have is Fluke <- just adding here that the 114 and 115 pics look quite cute in that the meters are really compact

It seems like Teledyne seems to be carried by a few people too....

^
|
Call the above "market research" if you like lol.... basically it's me trying to find out and understand what's around. I guess most of you guys would stay well away from many of the brands these specialized test equipment stores carry  :P
 

Offline nightfire

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #34 on: November 14, 2022, 01:38:35 am »
To which country/region the devices would have to be shipped?
Sometimes some international shipping company could help out, for example welectron in germany is quite known for this.

Regarding the Gossen Metrahit AM Pro: What you get is a very solid DMM, that comes with 3 years warranty and factory calibration and certificate, accredited to DaKKS- some official standard. Means that you can directly use it to do densitive work where you are required to produce a papertrail.
Also very good base accuracy of 0.05% VDC with 12000 counts.
I had the opportunity to have a look at  the insides of a sibling (a Metrahit Extra), that is mechanically similar that we have/had at work, but suffered from battery leakage. Mechanically very solid and nice, and about those is an older video on the eevblog youtube channel.
But to be fair, its like the Fluke DMMs: You get a very solid device with a papertrail, but as a home user probably never will use those perks to the fullest.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #35 on: November 14, 2022, 01:46:14 am »
At work we got nothing else than fluke meters.
It´s the standard what industrial needs concerns.
In private I use a Brymen meter (869s), in my opinon it´s the one which comes closest to the fluke models with nearly same features.
The first 869s I´ve bought, I´ve given it away for external calibration, no joke.. 8)
Just to see how good it is in real.
And I wasn´t disappointed.


Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #36 on: November 14, 2022, 02:10:30 am »
I think you are both giving me very good advice here and I really agree in terms of Fluke and Gossen.

In terms of shipping to me from abroad, unfortunately if something is not sold locally there are heavy import and duty fees to be paid. Actually I am having the same problem with photography and astrophotography equipment, in that we no longer can benefit from EU shipping advantages.

For that reason I'm not entirely sure how easy it is to find the Hioki stuff.... Google does not reveal anything apart from what I mentioned.

Way earlier on there was a suggestion to buy from AlliExpress... again I will be hit with customs and duty fees. Actually I have installed many Android tablets on my walls (they are PoE based and use Ethernet rather then wifi) for building control that come from Shenzen in China and having things sent back for repair is a nightmare due to export/import paperwork etc...

I guess that leaves my choice between Brymen and Yokogawa. I haven't really heard much about Yokogawa here on the forum through searches but the "how to choose a DMM" video does mention them. They are a little more pricey then Brymen but still loaded full of features.
Though I'm not sure if the excess price will mean better build or more robust software?

From what I am reading there is a reason that Brymen is very popular.

One thing that did come up in the thread that I linked in at the top was an issue with the sample and hold feature where it was being compared to Fluke. Maybe it's not so important but definitely convenient to have.

Finally if there's no big difference between Brymen and Yokogawa to justify the increase in price then which Brymen model out of the ones I shortlisted? But if there is a significant difference to warrant the price increase what exactly is it?

With the Brymens being so cost effective ie. cheap compared to all the other brands mentioned it makes it hard to choose because there is not a lot of difference in price between the different models. Though at this price point I almost feel like getting all 3 though I am not sure what I would do with them all as I have only 2 arms and hands haha

 
 

Offline AG6QR

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #37 on: November 14, 2022, 03:25:36 am »
I'd vote for at least two meters: a crude but safe one for mains and full-featured but perhaps not so rugged one for electronics.

I'm not totally sure what your mains work consists of, but for mains electrical (as opposed to electronic) work, consider the Fluke line of "testers" (as opposed to meters).  https://www.fluke.com/en-us/products/electrical-testing/basic-testers   They're all designed for use by electricians, appliance repair technicians, etc.  Very safe, rugged, and with enough precision to get a typical job done, but nowhere near as precise or full-featured as an 87-V.

As an extreme example, a non-contact voltage detector is a very quick, easy-to-use, and inexpensive tool for figuring out how far mains AC is getting, when you've discovered that it doesn't seem to be getting to where you need it.  But it's a hopelessly imprecise tool for electronics work. At around $20, they're cheap enough that, in addition to whatever other meters I own, I'll always have one of those "fire sticks" for electrical maintenance around the home.
 

Offline AG6QR

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #38 on: November 14, 2022, 03:37:52 am »
The golden rule of measuring current is to always use the 10A range - the 10A range will usually have mA resolution and 10A fuses are relatively difficult to blow around the house (even if you short out mains AC your circuit breakers will probably be faster than the fuse).

Only use the mA/uA ranges if you've already tried the 10A range and have seen that it's safe.

( Cue all the people who blow 10A fuses on a daily basis...  :popcorn: )

Excellent advice, usually.  But automotive work can easily blow 10A fuses.  Starter motors will pull hundreds of amps, and there are lots of smaller accessories that pull tens of amps.

My golden rule is to start with an AC/DC current clamp, and only put the multimeter in the circuit at the 10A range after the current clamp shows it's safe.  Then progress to the lower range if warranted.  Exactly the same principle as you describe, just taken a bit farther.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #39 on: November 14, 2022, 03:46:45 am »
automotive work can easily blow 10A fuses.

Putting them inline with something that draws hundreds of amps is bad for fuses, obviously, but you can't expect a multimeter to measure that current either, so...  :-//

(...so get a clamp)
 
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Offline mqsaharan

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #40 on: November 14, 2022, 03:48:19 am »
I haven't read the whole thread, only last two posts of yours. If you don't have a preference functions wise, my suggestions are:
If you want to go with Brymen, go to the store, hold them in your hand, see them in person. They have 4 distinct sizes apart from the pocket meters. Buy the top model available in the size you like. You can't go wrong there.
If you like Yokogawa, go with TY720. You do need to see its display in person as it is the most criticized thing about TY710/720.
If you like Fluke products and your work doesn't include PWM signals, go with Fluke 17B Max or 17B+ if Max is not available there. It is a basic multimeter. It is average responding and not TRMS in AC functions.
If you want (kind of) an everlasting meter and money is not that big a factor there, go with 87V/87V Max. It'll cover your work from basic bench electronics to industrial AC mains like most Brymens.
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #41 on: November 14, 2022, 03:48:44 am »
I'd vote for at least two meters: a crude but safe one for mains and full-featured but perhaps not so rugged one for electronics.

I'm not totally sure what your mains work consists of, but for mains electrical (as opposed to electronic) work, consider the Fluke line of "testers" (as opposed to meters).  https://www.fluke.com/en-us/products/electrical-testing/basic-testers   They're all designed for use by electricians, appliance repair technicians, etc.  Very safe, rugged, and with enough precision to get a typical job done, but nowhere near as precise or full-featured as an 87-V.

As an extreme example, a non-contact voltage detector is a very quick, easy-to-use, and inexpensive tool for figuring out how far mains AC is getting, when you've discovered that it doesn't seem to be getting to where you need it.  But it's a hopelessly imprecise tool for electronics work. At around $20, they're cheap enough that, in addition to whatever other meters I own, I'll always have one of those "fire sticks" for electrical maintenance around the home.


That could be a good option too!

I mean I do have a Greenlee voltage pen if that's what you are referring to?

Here's the link to it: https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/adjustable-voltage-detector-gt-16

I mean the mains stuff really is just getting voltage readings or measuring current. Like a few have suggested previously, I'd probably want to get a clamp meter addon for that though at least in the AC domain.

You might have a good point to grab an 'electricians' Fluke or Gossen  at their most basic but safety rated levels and then a second meter for DC related work.
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #42 on: November 14, 2022, 04:00:00 am »
Luckily I have setup the system to be able to log everything and display it in my building control software... but obviously that doesn't help trouble shoot if something goes wrong. In this case I am referring to AC mains levels

Thank you ModBUS and SNMP protocols lol





 

Offline AG6QR

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #43 on: November 14, 2022, 04:32:34 am »
I mean I do have a Greenlee voltage pen if that's what you are referring to?

Here's the link to it: https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/adjustable-voltage-detector-gt-16 

Yes, that's the kind of non-contact voltage detector I was referring to.

In addition, Fluke makes some testers that are basically like a low precision digital volt/ohm meter, capable of AC or DC voltage in the hundreds of volts, as well as resistance.  See the T+Pro, for example: https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/basic-testers/fluke-t-plus-pro#  It has a 3-digit LCD for displaying voltage. If you touch the probes to a voltage source, it will measure voltage, but if you touch them to an unpowered circuit, it will measure continuity or resistance, as appropriate.  It's designed to be "idiot proof" and fast, but neither full-featured nor precise.
 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #44 on: November 14, 2022, 01:19:15 pm »
The golden rule of measuring current is to always use the 10A range - the 10A range will usually have mA resolution and 10A fuses are relatively difficult to blow around the house (even if you short out mains AC your circuit breakers will probably be faster than the fuse).

Only use the mA/uA ranges if you've already tried the 10A range and have seen that it's safe.

( Cue all the people who blow 10A fuses on a daily basis...  :popcorn: )

Excellent advice, usually.  But automotive work can easily blow 10A fuses.  Starter motors will pull hundreds of amps, and there are lots of smaller accessories that pull tens of amps.

My golden rule is to start with an AC/DC current clamp, and only put the multimeter in the circuit at the 10A range after the current clamp shows it's safe.  Then progress to the lower range if warranted.  Exactly the same principle as you describe, just taken a bit farther.

My clamp meter has the resolution of 0.1A so if I measure starter current I would use it. I only go thru the trouble of inserting the meter in the circuit where I need higher resolution and in which case the current can't be high.
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #45 on: November 14, 2022, 01:47:29 pm »
My clamp meter has the resolution of 0.1A so if I measure starter current I would use it. I only go thru the trouble of inserting the meter in the circuit where I need higher resolution and in which case the current can't be high.

The same principle applies: Start with the clamp meter and use the multimeter only if the clamp meter shows it's safe to do so.  :)

 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #46 on: November 14, 2022, 02:03:48 pm »
I mean I do have a Greenlee voltage pen if that's what you are referring to?

Here's the link to it: https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/adjustable-voltage-detector-gt-16 

Yes, that's the kind of non-contact voltage detector I was referring to.

In addition, Fluke makes some testers that are basically like a low precision digital volt/ohm meter, capable of AC or DC voltage in the hundreds of volts, as well as resistance.  See the T+Pro, for example: https://www.fluke.com/en-us/product/electrical-testing/basic-testers/fluke-t-plus-pro#  It has a 3-digit LCD for displaying voltage. If you touch the probes to a voltage source, it will measure voltage, but if you touch them to an unpowered circuit, it will measure continuity or resistance, as appropriate.  It's designed to be "idiot proof" and fast, but neither full-featured nor precise.


Having probes will make life a lot easier. The major problem with contactless is in crowded environments. For my distribution panel I separated AC to the front and put DC to the rear. I didn't have any more space to work with so adding more panels was not a possibility to separate things further and ease maintenance when needed. This is the time where having the benefit of a dedicated room or basement really helps ;)

You can see below just how tightly squeezed everything is:



The mentioned Fluke looks like their version of a pocket meter which is cool.

Additionally, I also have a Zircon wall tester which will also check for AC in a non-contact fashion. I actually bought this because we don't have any walls left in the house as they're filled with cables. It's the price you pay for letting a tech guy (me) run wild and attempt to gain centralized control over every parameter.  :P
 

Offline ci11

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #47 on: November 14, 2022, 04:07:22 pm »
Although you are very graciously courteous, from your posted pictures it appears the environment the DMM will work in is not likely trivial, and separately, nor are you unfamiliar with potential pitfalls in built-to-a-price "test" equipment. The only answers I need when I buy test equipment are:

1. are you safe using this equipment in case of an unexpected fault, and
2. can you trust, rely on, or in some cases, publish the readings it gives

Buyers always want to pay less. Many profit-minded "businesses" seize on this to offer products at incredible "value" that are inadequately engineered and tested, or passed rigorous safety and reliability tests. Good components cost more money but they pale in comparison to the cost of thorough, competent and truthful assurance testing - components are generally getting better at the same price but the cost of competent engineers and thorough engineering is always increasing. The pages of this forum are full of doubts of brand x or y and attempts to do what "built-to-a-price" manufacturers should have done on their own.

I am now only the higher-end models from Gossen and Fluke as they best meet the 2 criteria mentioned above - they are likely safer to use, and I can trust the results they provide. Of course I have been tempted with lower-cost options and did yield to their allure a few times. But now, after eventually spending more in the end almost every time, my motto is "Buy once, cry once".
 

Offline Fungus

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #48 on: November 14, 2022, 04:16:48 pm »
I am now only the higher-end models from Gossen and Fluke as they best meet the 2 criteria mentioned above - they are likely safer to use, and I can trust the results they provide. Of course I have been tempted with lower-cost options and did yield to their allure a few times. But now, after eventually spending more in the end almost every time, my motto is "Buy once, cry once".

You'll struggle to find a forum member who believes that Brymen shouldn't be on that list.
 

Offline Black Phoenix

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #49 on: November 14, 2022, 04:33:35 pm »
I am now only the higher-end models from Gossen and Fluke as they best meet the 2 criteria mentioned above - they are likely safer to use, and I can trust the results they provide. Of course I have been tempted with lower-cost options and did yield to their allure a few times. But now, after eventually spending more in the end almost every time, my motto is "Buy once, cry once".

You'll struggle to find a forum member who believes that Brymen shouldn't be on that list.

What, we are going again into the "A brand instrument vs B brand" discussion?
 


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