Author Topic: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....  (Read 12228 times)

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Offline unknownparticle

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #50 on: November 14, 2022, 04:34:46 pm »
This is such a difficult question to answer definitively as everyone has a different perspective on DMM's.
Mine is that if you are going to have just one, go for the highest spec and features within your budget. You may not need or think you need a feature rich meter but it's there if ever you do, there is always mission creep!
Looking at value for money it is difficult to beat Brymen, they are well designed and made, also reliable
If money is not an issue then Fluke is always in the equation, but generally not that upto date and seem to be short on features, quality product though, so worth considering.
Two brands that are rarely mentioned here are Flir and Chauvin Arnoux. Both are premium brands with some excellent models, and Flir is made in the USA, Chauvin in France.  The Metrix models in the Chauvin Arnoux range are superb.  I have examples from both makers and really, really like them. Not for the budget conscious though.
The other brand that doesn't get the attention it deserves is Hioki, made in Japan and outstanding quality and design. Not a budget option though.
Good luck in your quest!
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 
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Offline ci11

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #51 on: November 14, 2022, 04:48:48 pm »
I am now only the higher-end models from Gossen and Fluke as they best meet the 2 criteria mentioned above - they are likely safer to use, and I can trust the results they provide. Of course I have been tempted with lower-cost options and did yield to their allure a few times. But now, after eventually spending more in the end almost every time, my motto is "Buy once, cry once".

You'll struggle to find a forum member who believes that Brymen shouldn't be on that list.

You are correct that there are many supporters of Brymen.

I can only attest to and offer my own experience: attached are 4 photos comparing the Fluke 79 Series II which I owned and used since purchased new in 1985 against a brand new Greenlee DM860A, the twin of the Brymen 869s. I bought the Greenlee only because they are officially distributed in the US and has a warranty. Sure the Greenlee is perhaps an unlucky sample of one, but for nearly 40 years, the less than high-end Fluke has been consistently "lucky". At the time when I bought the Fluke, it cost nearly 3 times as much as anything else with the same features and it was by no means a high-end model. I still use it if it must fit into a tight space.

 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #52 on: November 14, 2022, 06:15:00 pm »
My clamp meter has the resolution of 0.1A so if I measure starter current I would use it. I only go thru the trouble of inserting the meter in the circuit where I need higher resolution and in which case the current can't be high.

The same principle applies: Start with the clamp meter and use the multimeter only if the clamp meter shows it's safe to do so.  :)

What I meant is that even before you make the measurement you would know the range of the current and the accuracy you would need for the measurement and thus you don't need to approach it like a totally unknown measurement.
 

Offline mwb1100

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #53 on: November 14, 2022, 06:29:47 pm »
Sure the Greenlee is perhaps an unlucky sample of one, but for nearly 40 years, the less than high-end Fluke has been consistently "lucky".

If you look at the specs for all the devices, the Greenlee's reading is within range - it's possible (likely?) that it is closer to the true voltage than what either the Fluke 79 or the power supplies are displaying.
 

Offline armandine2

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #54 on: November 14, 2022, 09:22:23 pm »
decisions ... decisions ... decisions, or just plain prejudice?

I prejudge certain brands and remove them entirely from a purely 'open' choice selection. Though often popular, acclaimed, and best bang-for-buck models of test equipment, they never quite raise the requisite consumer expectation on my part to buy. I'm sure there is a polar opposite, who is budget and specification conscious, who has little resonance with some longstanding 'classic' and vaunted design quality. Of course, given our predispositions we should still decide, as best we can, within them.   ;)
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Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #55 on: November 14, 2022, 11:53:13 pm »
Although you are very graciously courteous, from your posted pictures it appears the environment the DMM will work in is not likely trivial, and separately, nor are you unfamiliar with potential pitfalls in built-to-a-price "test" equipment. The only answers I need when I buy test equipment are:

1. are you safe using this equipment in case of an unexpected fault, and
2. can you trust, rely on, or in some cases, publish the readings it gives

Buyers always want to pay less. Many profit-minded "businesses" seize on this to offer products at incredible "value" that are inadequately engineered and tested, or passed rigorous safety and reliability tests. Good components cost more money but they pale in comparison to the cost of thorough, competent and truthful assurance testing - components are generally getting better at the same price but the cost of competent engineers and thorough engineering is always increasing. The pages of this forum are full of doubts of brand x or y and attempts to do what "built-to-a-price" manufacturers should have done on their own.

I am now only the higher-end models from Gossen and Fluke as they best meet the 2 criteria mentioned above - they are likely safer to use, and I can trust the results they provide. Of course I have been tempted with lower-cost options and did yield to their allure a few times. But now, after eventually spending more in the end almost every time, my motto is "Buy once, cry once".


Like I said initially, I have not used a DMM for around 20 years, also I am really poor at explaining as I have a medical condition which actually "communication difficulties" are part of it. It's basically something about neurons getting stuck or going down the wrong pathways etc....

So I'm trying to do the best I can here. If it was computer network equipment from brands like Cisco then I would have a much better idea because I have been dealing with that stuff for many years both personally and professionally.

An example would be my wifi setup which uses a Cisco WLC 4402 controller, it is old... too old and EOL'd. Would I recommend it? No way, unless it is a corporate business their model is too restrictive ie. no software updates unless you have a service account and they stop support for older models quickly

In order to save some cash I bought mine used at a crazy low price and now I am suffering. Sure I don't wana spend $10k on a newer version but something like Rukus is much better supported and end user friendly due to their business model.
The controller still supports LDAP and RADIUS authentication with LEAP or PEAP etc... so absolutely no problems.


This is primarily why I didn't include a price, because at the end of the day I don't know how much would need to spent on a decent meter. The suggestions of many people have helped to assure me that you don't need to go beyond $500 or even a $1000 for decent meter.

You also mention the 'safety' aspect and I am all well too aware of it which is why having something like CATIII or CATIV certification is relevant. On the other hand, like a few people have pointed out the Flukes and Gossens have a paper trail which helps businesses that deal with these things professionally.
The above is not my use case as mostly I deal with Ethernet cable installation if at all. I have 2 Greenlee cable testers for this, one a mini tester and the other a distributed tester. I find them to be fantastic but do not use them everyday.


As for my images, I'm trying to help explain things of what I need the meters for where otherwise I am failing to explain in text. At the beginning I already recognized the issue as @Martin72 mentioned that I am not wording things very well to get to the point.
The last thing I want to do is cause frustrating for you guys or upset anyone. I am all too well aware of my personal issues and shortcomings which is why I am so grateful and thankful for so much input from everyone.
I can assure you that starting this thread was probably more difficult for me then anyone trying to chime in and help through the really vague descriptions that I have given.

Honestly, I really apologize if I am causing frustration among everyone! :(


 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #56 on: November 15, 2022, 12:28:13 am »
This is such a difficult question to answer definitively as everyone has a different perspective on DMM's.
Mine is that if you are going to have just one, go for the highest spec and features within your budget. You may not need or think you need a feature rich meter but it's there if ever you do, there is always mission creep!
Looking at value for money it is difficult to beat Brymen, they are well designed and made, also reliable
If money is not an issue then Fluke is always in the equation, but generally not that upto date and seem to be short on features, quality product though, so worth considering.
Two brands that are rarely mentioned here are Flir and Chauvin Arnoux. Both are premium brands with some excellent models, and Flir is made in the USA, Chauvin in France.  The Metrix models in the Chauvin Arnoux range are superb.  I have examples from both makers and really, really like them. Not for the budget conscious though.
The other brand that doesn't get the attention it deserves is Hioki, made in Japan and outstanding quality and design. Not a budget option though.
Good luck in your quest!

I have looked at Hioki and really like them but they seem difficult to find. Only through RS and Farnell. I haven't checked Mouser for that.

I wonder if they have a local presence?


Otherwise the suggested model: https://www.hioki.com/euro-en/products/testers/dmm-4/id_5803

does look really good. Price wise it's ok, not as high as more advanced models from Fluke and Gossen


Thanks for the good wishes!! :)
 

Offline mwb1100

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #57 on: November 15, 2022, 12:40:42 am »
I have looked at Hioki and really like them but they seem difficult to find. Only through RS and Farnell. I haven't checked Mouser for that.

I wonder if they have a local presence?


Otherwise the suggested model: https://www.hioki.com/euro-en/products/testers/dmm-4/id_5803

I don't know what "local" is for you, but Amazon US offers the Hioki DT4282 for around $400 shipped.  Note that the offers are from 3rd party sellers, but Amazon backs a return window that ends Jan 31, 2023 on some of them.
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #58 on: November 15, 2022, 12:53:20 am »
I have looked at Hioki and really like them but they seem difficult to find. Only through RS and Farnell. I haven't checked Mouser for that.

I wonder if they have a local presence?


Otherwise the suggested model: https://www.hioki.com/euro-en/products/testers/dmm-4/id_5803

I don't know what "local" is for you, but Amazon US offers the Hioki DT4282 for around $400 shipped.  Note that the offers are from 3rd party sellers, but Amazon backs a return window that ends Jan 31, 2023 on some of them.

That would be Europe but non-EU. Will check Amazon too as I didn't even think about that one. Thanks for that :)
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #59 on: November 15, 2022, 02:17:30 am »
Just checked amazon now for Hioki and this is what it came up with:

3244-60 - around $60
3030-10 - around $150
DT4256 - around $500
DT4252 - around $200
3244-60 - around $1200


That's everything after putting in "Hioki 4282" into the search bar....


If Hioki is so hard to find, then Brymen might be the best option for the moment and I can always go for another meter at a later point if I need to. Probably like @AG6QR suggested: getting two meters; something like one meter for electronic use (this can be of a larger size)
and another smaller meter for basic test measurements but certified still to high CAT rating


I admit this question is almost as difficult as asking to buy chocolate :) - which brand, type, price point etc... uh hahaha , your stock candy bar like Mars or something which will set you back 1 or 2 bucks or do you go for a high priced Belgian make that might end up costing $50 or more for very little quantity
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #60 on: November 15, 2022, 02:43:38 am »
I won't make your life easier...  ;D

Sanwa PC7000 is a good featured option as well - just like the Brymens, it has a 500.000 count mode as well, but it is a bit more accurate.

https://www.sanwa-america.com/products/pc7000-digital-multimeter-with-true-rms-and-pc-link

I don't have one, but I have used their analog models back in the 1980s and they were excellent meters!
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 02:50:25 am by rsjsouza »
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Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #61 on: November 15, 2022, 05:12:33 am »
I won't make your life easier...  ;D

Sanwa PC7000 is a good featured option as well - just like the Brymens, it has a 500.000 count mode as well, but it is a bit more accurate.

https://www.sanwa-america.com/products/pc7000-digital-multimeter-with-true-rms-and-pc-link

I don't have one, but I have used their analog models back in the 1980s and they were excellent meters!

Yeah sure let's confuse the OP (me) even further by adding N to the SnR ratio :) :) :) hahaha


Well.... I have finally seen a nice comparison for the Hioki lineup:

https://www.hioki.com/euro-en/download/32992



No wonder the saying "there's no perfect multimeter" keeps coming up...

I like the idea of Auto AC/DC, the cute series (422x) have voltage detection (does that mean non-contact? - I guess)

The 6223 model looks really cool for generic work. Though it doesn't have diode or capacitor checking - which I guess is no big deal with a second meter geared more towards electronics.

My shortlist for Hioki would be:

  • 6223
  • 4253
  • 4256
  • 4261
  • 4282
  • 4282


If I can find them and see prices that would be great. I'll check with my local industrial part supplier if they deal with them; they deal with everyone else including Phoenix Contact, ABB, Carlo Gavazzi, Greenlee etc... so fingers crossed.


By the way, I can see that some of the models have USB or Bluetooth connectivity. Does anyone know if they would be Linux compatible and what software would work with these guys? I have been running Arch Linux on my desktop/laptop machines for around 15 years and don't want to switch over to anything else in that respect.

I did come across this thread: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/multimeter-interface-with-desktop-linux/ so I need to take a closer look at KST Plot and see if there are alternatives in addition
« Last Edit: November 15, 2022, 05:20:03 am by kayasaman »
 

Offline mwb1100

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #62 on: November 15, 2022, 12:12:56 pm »
By the way, I can see that some of the models have USB or Bluetooth connectivity. Does anyone know if they would be Linux compatible and what software would work with these guys? I have been running Arch Linux on my desktop/laptop machines for around 15 years and don't want to switch over to anything else in that respect.

sigrok's supported hardware page doesn't mention Hioki, but does mention support for several other brands you are considering (such as Brymen, Fluke, Gossen).

Of course there may be other software than sigrok available that supports Hioki on Linux.  The protocols appear to be fully documented.  At least for the 4252 the interface is a simple serial-over-usb interface so you could even roll your own.  Brymen also document their protocols.  Fluke's protocol documentation for the 187/189 is unofficial (https://photonicsguy.ca/reference/flukemeter).  I believe the 287/289 protocol is the same as 187/189.  I don't know about Gossen's protocol, but since sigrok supports it there must be something out there (even if only in sigrok's source code).
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #63 on: November 15, 2022, 01:45:09 pm »
By the way, I can see that some of the models have USB or Bluetooth connectivity. Does anyone know if they would be Linux compatible and what software would work with these guys? I have been running Arch Linux on my desktop/laptop machines for around 15 years and don't want to switch over to anything else in that respect.

sigrok's supported hardware page doesn't mention Hioki, but does mention support for several other brands you are considering (such as Brymen, Fluke, Gossen).

Of course there may be other software than sigrok available that supports Hioki on Linux.  The protocols appear to be fully documented.  At least for the 4252 the interface is a simple serial-over-usb interface so you could even roll your own.  Brymen also document their protocols.  Fluke's protocol documentation for the 187/189 is unofficial (https://photonicsguy.ca/reference/flukemeter).  I believe the 287/289 protocol is the same as 187/189.  I don't know about Gossen's protocol, but since sigrok supports it there must be something out there (even if only in sigrok's source code).


Thanks! Checked out SigRok, it looks interesting.

Also found this: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/program-that-can-log-from-many-multimeters/

many more meters seem to be supported and not just the lower tier ones which seems to be primarily where SigRok is aiming:

https://sigrok.org/wiki/Supported_hardware#Multimeters


Another piece of good news. I found a local presence for Hioki, but no pricing :( there are two distributors however, outside of RS and Farnell so they maybe able to help with a reseller if they can't sell directly themselves.
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #64 on: November 15, 2022, 06:23:29 pm »
Quote
@Martin72 from the images this little guy looks quite compact. Is it actually on the small side or are the pictures deceiving?

It is small, I can take a pic on monday from it in relation of other meters when I´m at work.

Tuesday... 8)

From left to right:
Fluke 115, 117, 175, 87V, 289 and my private brymen 869s.
 
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Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #65 on: November 15, 2022, 06:26:11 pm »
Quote
@Martin72 from the images this little guy looks quite compact. Is it actually on the small side or are the pictures deceiving?

It is small, I can take a pic on monday from it in relation of other meters when I´m at work.

Tuesday... 8)

From left to right:
Fluke 115, 117, 175, 87V, 289 and my private brymen 869s.

Very cool!! :D
 

Offline nightfire

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #66 on: November 15, 2022, 09:46:39 pm »
For EU, www.reichelt.de seems like a good possibility.

As for the models, the DT4261 is a good compromise between features and price, unless the real strengths of the DT4282 are really needed.
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #67 on: November 15, 2022, 10:19:03 pm »
For EU, www.reichelt.de seems like a good possibility.

As for the models, the DT4261 is a good compromise between features and price, unless the real strengths of the DT4282 are really needed.

Yeah, unfortunately we are no longer in the EU :( :(

Right now I'm banging my head a little against the wall as I have almost found the perfect combination but* unfortunately the small/cute model doesn't measure current :(


I actually short listed down to these two - one for practical use and the other for more high performance use:

  • DT4223
  • DT4282

It seems I didn't read the specs properly as the 422x series doesn't measure current or resistance, while the 3/4 models do resistance but not current. Maybe they are too small to include the circuitry to measure current? It seems a strange design choice...

Because of that I have been comparing with the Brymen 257s which is slightly bigger (not too much) but still does the basic measurements of V/A/R and a whole bunch more....

It's almost like having the DT2456 in a smaller package.

This is where things start to become even more difficult  |O

 

Offline nightfire

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #68 on: November 15, 2022, 10:22:17 pm »
Hioki also promotes the absence of current measurement on some models as an active safety feature that prevents accidental voltage probing with leads put in the Amps range...
 

Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #69 on: November 15, 2022, 10:28:56 pm »
That's probably what it is.... The compact models don't have removable leads from what I can see which makes their socket shutters redundant

That makes sense

Well I guess tomorrow I'll give the distributors a ping and see what they say as to where I can get them from and hopefully then I'll also have some pricing to compare too
 

Online Martin72

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #70 on: November 15, 2022, 11:30:11 pm »
Very cool!! :D

These are the models I could get in a break..
We got Fluke 115, 117, 175, 179, 87V, 187 and 289.
The 115/117 are nice little ones which we use for tests with no special requirements - They got 1% basic accuracy.
The 175/179 got the advantage of having max 1000V input voltage and they´re cheaper than 87V.
187 and 289 we use for AC-measurements beyond 20khz (the limit of the 87) - And the 289 got a remarkable advantage against other flukes:
It could measure capacities up to 40mF (40000µF).
The 87V is our mostly used one, we got over 20pcs, it´s accuracy and bandwith are sufficent enough for nearly 95% of all our requirements.
The brymen I took to work to show the size, it´s a little bit bigger than fluke 87V.
Together with probemaster testleads I´m totally confident with this meter.
 
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Offline kayasamanTopic starter

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #71 on: November 16, 2022, 12:28:16 am »
Very cool!! :D

These are the models I could get in a break..
We got Fluke 115, 117, 175, 179, 87V, 187 and 289.
The 115/117 are nice little ones which we use for tests with no special requirements - They got 1% basic accuracy.
The 175/179 got the advantage of having max 1000V input voltage and they´re cheaper than 87V.
187 and 289 we use for AC-measurements beyond 20khz (the limit of the 87) - And the 289 got a remarkable advantage against other flukes:
It could measure capacities up to 40mF (40000µF).
The 87V is our mostly used one, we got over 20pcs, it´s accuracy and bandwith are sufficent enough for nearly 95% of all our requirements.
The brymen I took to work to show the size, it´s a little bit bigger than fluke 87V.
Together with probemaster testleads I´m totally confident with this meter.


It just shows how much choice there is out there and how many good brands are around. I guess I should have included "making coffee" in my criteria as that might be the most important thing :P

What makes things so difficult is if you don't use these tools everyday or are not familiar with different models and brands to know how each handles then it's very much like picking a number of out of a hat. It becomes a lottery, and you don't know what you're going to get in terms of if you will like it or not as everyone's use case, criteria (which has already been pointed out) and style is different.

 |O |O |O |O haha uh help!
 

Offline BeBuLamar

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #72 on: November 16, 2022, 12:24:07 pm »
I haven't even seen a Hioki in real life but with what I read I think they are very nice meters.
 

Offline unknownparticle

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #73 on: November 16, 2022, 03:28:51 pm »
I have the DT4256 from Hioki, it was my toe in the water test for the brand!  It is right there with Fluke on build quality with better features for the price and really nice to use.  I will be going for one of the top of the range models sometime soon, based on my experience of the 4256.
For me, the fact that it is made in Japan has weight, they don't skimp on component quality.
DC coupling is the devils work!!
 
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Offline multiJ

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Re: Choosing a multimeter - decisions.... decisions....
« Reply #74 on: November 16, 2022, 07:21:21 pm »

I actually short listed down to these two - one for practical use and the other for more high performance use:

  • DT4223
  • DT4282


In my place of the world the DT4223 has a ~50 euro price difference from the DT4252/DT4256 so I would prefer one of these instead -if you have your mind set on Hioki. IMO of course.
DT4282 looks pretty nice too if you need the higher count and extra features.

Edit: typo
« Last Edit: November 16, 2022, 07:24:21 pm by multiJ »
 
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