Products > Test Equipment
Choosing a ~$10K MSO (Keysight 3000G, LeCroy 4000HD, Tek MSO34, R&S ??)
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nctnico:

--- Quote from: tooki on November 06, 2023, 12:46:55 am ---
--- Quote from: nctnico on November 05, 2023, 11:50:26 pm ---At least the signal analysis needs will be covered by that oscilloscope so you won't have to concentrate too much on that on your new purchase. There is not a single oscilloscope which is perfect for all situations.

--- End quote ---
Ain’t that the truth! That’s one of the reasons I’ve been leaning towards the Keysight, in that its strengths are very, very different from the LeCroy I already have.

It’s a pity the Rohde & Schwartz RTB2 and RTM3 series have such woefully sluggish user interfaces, or else one of those would be a wonderful choice. :/

--- End quote ---
I use an RTM3004 as my daily driver. The UI is not the fastest but if you use the touchscreen efficiently (with the user defineable hotkeys for example), you can get things done quickly. IMHO the RTM3004 is a good choice for doing embedded development work and is a good complement to the Lecroy beast you already have. The MXO4 is likely nicer so perhaps it is worth persuing a deal.

About probes: I guess this purchase is part of the academic end of year buying frenzy? If yes, buy the probes / extra options next year OR purchase them as part of tooling for a specific project.
2N3055:

--- Quote from: tooki on November 06, 2023, 12:53:40 am ---
--- Quote from: tautech on November 05, 2023, 07:59:54 pm ---
--- Quote from: Martin72 on November 05, 2023, 07:35:04 pm ---........... the 6000A would come into question with Siglent, possibly the new SDS7000A, which according to siglent eu should be on the market this year, like the larger lecroys it is a pc-based scope.

--- End quote ---
It might be beyond tooki's budget however as the base model will be 2 GHz BW which for SDS6204A (top 6000 model) is already $9990.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds7000a-dsos-coming/

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Since Siglent is closely entwined with LeCroy, it’s my understanding that Siglent scopes lean more towards being “analytical” scopes like LeCroys, as opposed to “interactive” or “real-time” scopes like Keysight (and Rigol, which more closely copies them). Since I already have a heavy-duty analytical scope, I think I should be focused more on a real-time model. Does Siglent have something more like that?

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Logic of Siglent scopes is very similar to logic of LeCroy.

Slightly slower refresh rate is not show stopper. It simply means sometimes you will see the glitch every 5 seconds instead of every 2 seconds. It is slower but still works. But lack of memory will prevent you from using high sample rate for longer timebase. There is no workaround for that. Your 500MHz scope soon becomes a 20 MHz scope.Or less. Or undersamples....

I have here 2 Siglent  scopes and also Keysight MSOX3104T.
I don't see much advantage from super high refresh rates on Keysight, but I do see problems because of short memory on Keysight that makes it drop sample rate much quicker as you go to longer time-bases. 2MPTs compared to 100MPTs is large factor.

Let's say you want to measure a parameter, like risetime, and want to do statistics on 1000 edges for an average.
Keysight takes only one measurement per trigger. On first edge from the left side of the visible screen, not in relation to trigger.
You will need 1000 trigger events until you get your 1000 measurements. So you shorten timebase so only one event is on screen. And since it uses decimated data, short timebase will increase timing resolution too. You need to always keep short timebase anyways, because otherwise sample rate drops. It needs super fast triggering because otherwise......

On Siglent or LeCroy, enter deep measurements.
You take one, single, capture with 1000 edges in it. Since you have long memory you keep maximum sample rate and retain same timing resolution as with short timebase. Scope will go into that capture and measure each and every edge and add them to the stats. All 1000 of them from a single trigger. Or 10000 from a single trigger.
In this particular case, which one is faster?

Also hardware decode in Keysights is both good and bad. It is fast, but you have to setup everything perfectly up front, before capture. You cannot capture some nice long UART data, and you realize it is not 8bit no parity but 7bit with parity and it all looks scrambled. You cannot go into settings, set it right and it will then decode properly. It was decode at capture time and that is it. You need to update settings and recapture new capture from begining. OTOH, this scope actually captures data with a comparator built in analog channel. Because of that it will sometimes decode data that in analog view looks unrecognizable... But that is a crutch that works despite it's short memory..

On scopes with software decode, you can capture some data even without decode being on. You can enable/disable decode at will and play with settings until it shows propper data...

Also Siglents/LeCroy have always running History of captures in background. It is similar to segmented capture but while normally using scope...

Every concept will have bad and good sides...
nctnico:

--- Quote from: 2N3055 on November 06, 2023, 09:27:02 am ---Also Siglents/LeCroy have always running History of captures in background. It is similar to segmented capture but while normally using scope...

--- End quote ---
The same goes for R&S and Yokogawa. It might be handy because having an automatic history mode is typically easier to use compared to setting up segmented recording.
Sighound36:
Does this have to be a new model?

I have a few Lecroy's some Keysight (6000 models) Siglent & Rigol. Everyday models we use Wavesufer HD's.

Have seen HDO6000's around the 12K mark, depends on which BW and sample rate you are looking, The R&S MX04 is also a very fine scope though it may be outside your of your budget. Do shop around currently one or two manufacturers are dropping their trousers for specific models.

Also, Keysight are doing some 'deals' on the 3000 series as well currently.

Although I would suggest pretty much all scopes for hence forward will be 12 bit, so do take that into consideration.

If you are looking to extract more performance then you may wish to look at the hackers whore specials Siglent, in fairness the brand has make very positive strides in the performance and reliability stakes in the last few years.

plenty of choice out there, what I would also suggest prioritise exactly what features you are looking for, take into the PROBE cost, and any future app upgrades that may be of use. Power Analysis/3 Phase/ Serial Data/ power rail analysis etc.





tooki:
Just a quick update, since a decision has been made. I still want to respond to a number of replies above, but that will have to wait; I had an eye doctor appointment today and 10 hours later my eyes are still wonky from the dilating drops. :/

After a bit more discussion with the relevant professors, it became clearer that this really just needs to be an all-purpose scope, and that high bandwidth is not expected to be necessary (and if needed on occasion, served by one of the big LeCroys in the department.)

With high bandwidth off the table, I was able to go for the Rohde & Schwarz MXO4. The rep was able to squeeze into my budget an excellent bundle for the 200MHz model, plus mixed signal and the options bundle of low-speed serial decoders (I2C, SPI, UART, etc), automotive decoders (CAN, LIN), arb gen, and bode plotting. It’s almost certainly fundamentally overkill for what I predict to need, but the combination of a modern platform (deep memory, big, high res screen, broad feature set) AND a high waveform rate is ultimately what sold me, especially given the outstanding specs it has in basically every respect.

It was a hard choice, since every scope had something to like: the Tek MDO34 grew on me a bit, thanks to a few thoughtful little touches (like the dual multipurpose knobs and top-notch build quality and industrial design; the LeCroys share the nice UI with their big brothers and have a phenomenal set of tools; the Keysight has a nice feature set and phenomenally responsive UI. But the Keysight and Tek MDO34 are based on kinda dated technology, which is visible at times. The Sigle… err, LeCroy models, the Tek MSO24, and R&S RTB2 and RTM3 clearly push their CPUs to their very limits, so UI responsiveness and some features suffer as a consequence.

FYI, the R&S rep mentioned that the MXO4 is just the first of their next-gen scopes. The MXO5 is already on the horizon, but he mentioned that the other models are expected to be transitioned to it, too, over the next few years, likely as the MXO3, MXO6, etc. and that those should have the superior UI performance.
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