Choosing Lab equipment for our new electronics lab.

[LabSpokane]

So when the frequency that is being sent to the drive is incorrect, how do you plan to check the microcontroller driving it all with a 50 MHz scope?  If you can't probe the system end to end in order validate and troubleshoot it, why bother looking at all?  Ignorance may be bliss, but not in electrical engineering.

[nctnico]

Get a 3000 series Agilent.  You really do need more than 200 MHz for anything but the slowest of clocks now. Shoot for 500Mhz and you'll get to use cheap, passive probes, but keep the option to go to 1GHz should you need to. If you're going to

200MHz is more than enough for general purpose work. You'll need special probes to be able to actually use high bandwidths and those probes together can cost just as much as the oscilloscope. Typically I have a 200MHz scope for everyday use and an older oscilloscope with a much higher bandwidth for special occasions.

[Wuerstchenhund]

I hate to ask, but how would I actually haggle down the pricing of a  500MHz WaveSurfer 3000 (over £7K)

The WS3054 isn't over £7k, it's actually less than £5k:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/lc-surfer3054/digital-oscilloscopes/teledyne-lecroy/wavesurfer-3054/

and how far could I haggle it down by? Not quite sure how I would approach it and what kind of bargaining power / promises I can make to get the price significantly down.

It's not that difficult, really. Just contact LeCroy sales directly (not any distributor) and tell them your company is procuring a scope, that you normally buy Agilent/Keysight but that the WaveSurfer 3024/3054 looks interesting, and ask for the price for the config you want. Once they give it to you tell them that the stated price exceeds your budget and what you can get from Agilent and Tek, but if the price were to be closer to X that you could convince your management that the LeCroy was the better proposition.

In my experience large T&M manufacturers are pretty easy to deal with, aside from Tek who doesn't seem to be very flexible in their pricing (which is even more surprising when considering that they're no longer a top contender in terms of scopes).

I am also admittedly a bit confused why I would need 500MHz when I am only probably going up to a max of 100KHz in terms of the frequencies I am using on the output of drives, not to mention I doubt I will ever need or want to probe the clock of my microcontrollers (Again, doubt it would go over 120MHz.

A 200MHz scope only good enough for a 120MHz signal if it's a pure and perfect sine wave (which in reality often won't be the case). And other signal components may easily exceed the fundamental frequency. For example, ff it's closer to a square then your 200MHz scope is only good for capturing the fundamental frequency but not the harmonics, and the waveform you see won't have much to do with what's actually happening. Also, you seem to fall into the trap of only considering the bandwidth of the signals you expect to find, but not what else might be there that's screwing up your design and which you simply won't see because your test equipment lacks the necessary bandwidth. In the worst case you're chasing phantoms because you're essentially flying blind (which again comes back to money lost through hours wasted which depending on the situation can quickly exceed the price difference for better equipment).

I think 500MHz is pretty reasonable recommendation, but if that's outside your budget then I'd go with the 300MHz model instead of only 200MHz.

[CM800]

The WS3054 isn't over £7k, it's actually less than £5k:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/lc-surfer3054/digital-oscilloscopes/teledyne-lecroy/wavesurfer-3054/

I was mostly referring to the cost of all the probes + the digital channels etc.

It's not that difficult, really. Just contact LeCroy sales directly (not any distributor) and tell them your company is procuring a scope, that you normally buy Agilent/Keysight but that the WaveSurfer 3024/3054 looks interesting, and ask for the price for the config you want. Once they give it to you tell them that the stated price exceeds your budget and what you can get from Agilent and Tek, but if the price were to be closer to X that you could convince your management that the LeCroy was the better proposition.

In my experience large T&M manufacturers are pretty easy to deal with, aside from Tek who doesn't seem to be very flexible in their pricing (which is even more surprising when considering that they're no longer a top contender in terms of scopes).

I shall take your advice there and have a chat with them.

A 200MHz scope only good enough for a 120MHz signal if it's a pure and perfect sine wave (which in reality often won't be the case). And other signal components may easily exceed the fundamental frequency. For example, ff it's closer to a square then your 200MHz scope is only good for capturing the fundamental frequency but not the harmonics, and the waveform you see won't have much to do with what's actually happening. Also, you seem to fall into the trap of only considering the bandwidth of the signals you expect to find, but not what else might be there that's screwing up your design and which you simply won't see because your test equipment lacks the necessary bandwidth. In the worst case you're chasing phantoms because you're essentially flying blind (which again comes back to money lost through hours wasted which depending on the situation can quickly exceed the price difference for better equipment).

I think 500MHz is pretty reasonable recommendation, but if that's outside your budget then I'd go with the 300MHz model instead of only 200MHz.

I was not aware of this, huge thanks for letting me know this kind of stuff as It's something I wouldn't have thought of at all. It's also a good point I can put forward to management.

Is it worth getting a multimeter or could I just use my Oscilliscope for the more precise measurements that are below 200V?

[Wuerstchenhund]

The WS3054 isn't over £7k, it's actually less than £5k:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/lc-surfer3054/digital-oscilloscopes/teledyne-lecroy/wavesurfer-3054/

I was mostly referring to the cost of all the probes + the digital channels etc.

Digital channels are a software option (as is the enablement for the integrated Arbitrary Waveform Generator) which is one of the things that probably could be negotiated in.

Is it worth getting a multimeter or could I just use my Oscilliscope for the more precise measurements that are below 200V?

Get a multimeter. Even a simple handheld multimeter is better than the scope multimeter (and with better resolution), and even a decent one doesn't have to cost much money.

[CM800]

The WS3054 isn't over £7k, it's actually less than £5k:
http://www.tme.eu/en/details/lc-surfer3054/digital-oscilloscopes/teledyne-lecroy/wavesurfer-3054/

I was mostly referring to the cost of all the probes + the digital channels etc.

Digital channels are a software option (as is the enablement for the integrated Arbitrary Waveform Generator) which is one of the things that probably could be negotiated in.

Is it worth getting a multimeter or could I just use my Oscilliscope for the more precise measurements that are below 200V?

Get a multimeter. Even a simple handheld multimeter is better than the scope multimeter (and with better resolution), and even a decent one doesn't have to cost much money.

Alright then, It seems that buying the Digital channels is not only the actual software but the cables for it too. I have a couple of hand held multi-meters, I may look into getting a proper 4 wire multi-meter from somewhere too.

Would it be a good idea to invite them to our building and into a meeting room to discuss or do it through email or phone. They usually bring some samples too...

[Wuerstchenhund]

Alright then, It seems that buying the Digital channels is not only the actual software but the cables for it too.

They're part of the WS3K-MSO package, and certainly would be thrown in.

Would it be a good idea to invite them to our building and into a meeting room to discuss or do it through email or phone. They usually bring some samples too...

Just ask them to give you a demo on-site, which they should be happy to do. You might even be able to get a fully loaded demo scope for a verry low price.

[nctnico]

Alright then, It seems that buying the Digital channels is not only the actual software but the cables for it too.

They're part of the WS3K-MSO package, and certainly would be thrown in.

Why don't they just include it if it gets thrown in anyway? I recently asked for a quotation for a Wavesurfer3000 but didn't pull the trigger on it due to the options being so darn expensive.

[Wuerstchenhund]

Alright then, It seems that buying the Digital channels is not only the actual software but the cables for it too.

They're part of the WS3K-MSO package, and certainly would be thrown in.

Why don't they just include it if it gets thrown in anyway?

Because it would be a waste to throw in logic cables which will then end up collecting dust in the box or going to the bin because they're not needed. A lot of these scopes will not be used for logic work.

I recently asked for a quotation for a Wavesurfer3000 but didn't pull the trigger on it due to the options being so darn expensive.

Try to approach LeCroy directly. If you buy from shops like Mouser or Digikey then of course they'll charge you full price.

[nctnico]

BTW: I've asked a local Lecroy dealer for a price.

[Wuerstchenhund]

BTW: I've asked a local Lecroy dealer for a price.

I wouldn't go through dealers if you can avoid that (i.e. if there's a LeCroy subsidiary in your country), as they usually have some limitations re. pricing and obviously want to have a piece of the cake for themselves.

[CM800]

BTW: I've asked a local Lecroy dealer for a price.

I wouldn't go through dealers if you can avoid that (i.e. if there's a LeCroy subsidiary in your country), as they usually have some limitations re. pricing and obviously want to have a piece of the cake for themselves.

Yeh, I agree there!

[nctnico]

BTW: I've asked a local Lecroy dealer for a price.

I wouldn't go through dealers if you can avoid that (i.e. if there's a LeCroy subsidiary in your country), as they usually have some limitations re. pricing and obviously want to have a piece of the cake for themselves.

I didn't look into that. Maybe later this year once I figured out what I'm going to do with my oscilloscope situation.

[tautech]

It does worry me about how 'reliable' the equipment is... I mean people say it is hobbiest.. but then again if it works, and it makes measurements that are similar to the 'professional' ones...  whats the difference? If it does the job...  it's good.

There's quite a difference. For example, Siglent and Rigol both produce good hardware but both suck at developing the firmware for their kit. For example, Siglent came out with a nice entry level scope (SDS2000) but after all that time it is still plagued by firmware bugs that may or may not be fixed eventually. Just read the SDS2000 threads in this forum. To make matters worse it looks like Siglent is now working on new scope models so no-one knows if the SDS2000 will ever get the necessary attention.

Rigol is slightly better in this regard but they focus their attention on the products that sell most (i.e. DS2000 and DS1000z scopes, the DS2000 has seen many updates and is now in a decent state regarding its firmware) which comes at the cost of neglecting the DS4000 and DS6000 which both suffer from problems that have long been fixed in the DS2000. That means while the DS2000 is a good and reliable scope in its price class, the DS4000 is still a buggy like hell and unlikely to ever get its problems fixed.

The other thing is that support is very variable with Siglent and Rigol, while the big names have established support centers around the world with short turn-around times and the chance to talk to engineers with product knowledge and not just some script jokey.

As usual the hound is doing his best with some "over the top" marketing claims.

Siglent are more engaged with this community than other manufacturers striving to get their products better.
There were a dozen FW issues addressed in the last release at Xmas.(SDS2000)
Major bugs discovered in equipment are normally sorted in a week of two.

Rigol has some problems with 1000 & 2000 series that have owners waiting for a year for a fix.

These subtle facts have been conveniently overlooked in his reply.

Is it worth getting a multimeter or could I just use my Oscilliscope for the more precise measurements that are below 200V?

A quality DMM will be more useful than a DSO for your needs along with its additional functionality.

[CM800]

It does worry me about how 'reliable' the equipment is... I mean people say it is hobbiest.. but then again if it works, and it makes measurements that are similar to the 'professional' ones...  whats the difference? If it does the job...  it's good.

There's quite a difference. For example, Siglent and Rigol both produce good hardware but both suck at developing the firmware for their kit. For example, Siglent came out with a nice entry level scope (SDS2000) but after all that time it is still plagued by firmware bugs that may or may not be fixed eventually. Just read the SDS2000 threads in this forum. To make matters worse it looks like Siglent is now working on new scope models so no-one knows if the SDS2000 will ever get the necessary attention.

Rigol is slightly better in this regard but they focus their attention on the products that sell most (i.e. DS2000 and DS1000z scopes, the DS2000 has seen many updates and is now in a decent state regarding its firmware) which comes at the cost of neglecting the DS4000 and DS6000 which both suffer from problems that have long been fixed in the DS2000. That means while the DS2000 is a good and reliable scope in its price class, the DS4000 is still a buggy like hell and unlikely to ever get its problems fixed.

The other thing is that support is very variable with Siglent and Rigol, while the big names have established support centers around the world with short turn-around times and the chance to talk to engineers with product knowledge and not just some script jokey.

As usual the hound is doing his best with some "over the top" marketing claims.

Siglent are more engaged with this community than other manufacturers striving to get their products better.
There were a dozen FW issues addressed in the last release at Xmas.(SDS2000)
Major bugs discovered in equipment are normally sorted in a week of two.

Rigol has some problems with 1000 & 2000 series that have owners waiting for a year for a fix.

These subtle facts have been conveniently overlooked in his reply.

Is it worth getting a multimeter or could I just use my Oscilliscope for the more precise measurements that are below 200V?

A quality DMM will be more useful than a DSO for your needs along with its additional functionality.

Being that you ARE a Siglent distributor I find it hard to take you tooo seriously in terms of their products, especially as the ones I have tried I haven't found them to be very good. I'm going to try have a good chat with my boss about the oscilloscopes and so on.

[Wuerstchenhund]

As usual the hound is doing his best with some "over the top" marketing claims.

Says the person with a vested interest in Siglent.

Siglent are more engaged with this community than other manufacturers striving to get their products better.

Yeah, well maybe Siglent should have spend more time actually addressing the issues in a timely manner.

There were a dozen FW issues addressed in the last release at Xmas.(SDS2000)

Great, and still the scope is suffering from major bugs after a year of release which is pretty much an embarassment (and as far as I know the main reason why LeCroy has adopted an Iwatsu scope for their entry level (WaveJet) instead of the SDS2000, and why Siglent isn't allowed even near the software for the SDS3000 aka WS3000).

Siglent has demonstrated that their hardware is solid but in terms of firmware they are absolutely useless.

TCWilliams, don't believe me (or a Siglent seller), just read the SDS2000 threads in this forum to see how bad it really is. You'll find that even some people that originally defended the scope in the beginning have pretty much given up on it and wouldn't recommend it any more. As someone else pointed out in another thread, it's remarkable that it's only the people with a vested interest who are defending Siglent no matter what. Read the threads and then decide if that is acceptable for you in a commercial setting.

Rigol has some problems with 1000 & 2000 series that have owners waiting for a year for a fix.

Indeed, and I think I already highlighted that Rigol has similar problems. And just because other cheap Chinese brands suffer from the same problem doesn't make Siglent's failure to sort out their many firmware problems.

But I understand that negative feedback about the products you sell is a concern for you.

[nctnico]

Is it worth getting a multimeter or could I just use my Oscilliscope for the more precise measurements that are below 200V?

A quality DMM will be more useful than a DSO for your needs along with its additional functionality.

I agree. An oscilloscope usually has a DC accuracy specification of 1% at best. Even a cheap Chinese bench DMM like the VC8145 is around 0.05% DC accuracy. I'd get several basic DMMs both bench model and hand held.

[tautech]

Being that you ARE a Siglent distributor I find it hard to take you tooo seriously in terms of their products, especially as the ones I have tried I haven't found them to be very good. I'm going to try have a good chat with my boss about the oscilloscopes and so on.

Yes and openly so.

What can't you take seriously? 
Which models have you tried?
You stated you had a 60 MHz unit.....you'll find the SDS2000 range are significantly more advanced.

You may not be aware LeCroy are working with Siglent and LeCroy rebrand some Siglent products for their entry level range.

Says the person with a vested interest in Siglent.

But I understand that negative feedback about the products you sell is a concern for you.

Of course, why wouldn't I be?
However of greater concern is Siglent's response to issues in the fastest possible time as everybody likes to publicize a competing brands shortcomings.

[nctnico]

We have to admit that Siglent has several of their employees active on this forum. AFAIK they are the only major equipment vendor to do so. Also it seems the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 hardware is build by Siglent.

[Wuerstchenhund]

We have to admit that Siglent has several of their employees active on this forum.

That's true, however it hasn't really lead to a better product, has it? They have received tons of good feedback early on, but only addressed some of the issues, and often replaced one issue with a new one.

Showing presence on a forum is all nice and dandy from a marketing perspective, but for an end user it's pretty much worthless if major product flaws remain unfixed for long periods of time.

AFAIK they are the only major equipment vendor to do so.

Aside from that I think it's very much debatable if Siglent can be considered a 'major vendor', the simple truth is that most big brands that are not active here manage to bring out more mature products.

Also don't forget that some companies like Keysight have their own forum, and that this is not the only EE forum.

Also it seems the Lecroy Wavesurfer 3000 hardware is build by Siglent.

Yes, the hardware, which was designed with LeCroy keeping their finger on it, and with Siglent being prevented from even touching the software (all they get are encrypted binary blobs to put on the scopes). For the WaveSurfer 3000, LeCroy is using Siglent for what they're good at - producing quality hardware(!) at reasonable costs. Also the WaveSurfer 3000 will be supported by LeCroy and not Siglent, so it's backed up by a pretty solid and proven support structure.

I said it before and say it again, Siglent can produce good quality hardware, but they definitely have shown to be utter useless when it comes to software. That's a fact, and while as a hobbyist the quirks of Siglent's firmware might be tolerable in some cases, I can't honestly recommend to invest money in such buggy kit if it's meant to be for a professional setup.

[CM800]

Having sat down with a family friend (Phd. Head of Research at an ultrasound company) who do a large amount with oscilloscopes, RF and various other things.

We went though some maths along with a deep discussion and decided that I wouldn't ever need to go above (or near) 200MHz, taking into account fundamental frequencies. Along with that he said that he has used both LeCroy and Agilent extensively and finds Agilent much better in terms of cost-benefit.

He has highly suggested the MSOX3024A and I do believe that I shall very likely go with that (He is a crazy brainbox, knows huge amounts)

All I have to figure out is the rest of the equipment. !

[nctnico]

I don't think he is right about the Agilent. The 3000 series is based on obsolete technology. That technology was great... 10 years ago.
Put together a wish list and call Lecroy and tell them what price and options they have to match to make you buy a Wavesurfer 3000.

[CM800]

I don't think he is right about the Agilent. The 3000 series is based on obsolete technology. That technology was great... 10 years ago.
Put together a wish list and call Lecroy and tell them what price and options they have to match to make you buy a Wavesurfer 3000.

In what way is Agilent's oscilloscopes 'obsolete technology'?

The family friend I was talking about used to use LeCroy oscilloscopes in their products for quite a while until they decided and worked out that Agilent 3000A series were actually much better. ( At one point he could literally phone up LeCroy and they could recognize his voice from how often he called them / did business)

 I think I shall do that anyway and give them both a test run.

[Wuerstchenhund]

The family friend I was talking about used to use LeCroy oscilloscopes in their products for quite a while until they decided and worked out that Agilent 3000A series were actually much better.

He must have used either a WaveAce or a WaveJet then. In case you didn't know, LeCroy never bothered to develop cheap low end scopes so they rebadged some cheap Siglent scopes (with Siglent firmware!) and sold them as 'WaveAce', and also some Iwatsu scopes as 'WaveJet'. The WaveAce is plain crap, and while the WaveJet is not a bad scope it's outdated and overpriced. But then no-one buys LeCroy for their botom-of-the-barrel scopes.

But that has little to do with the WaveSurfer 3000, and which easily gives the old DSOX3000A and even the "new" DSOX3000T a run for its money. I have used the DSOX3000, and spent some time with the WS3000, and the latter is simply the much more capable scope, and at a pretty decent price, simple as that.

[LabSpokane]

We went though some maths along with a deep discussion and decided that I wouldn't ever need to go above (or near) 200MHz, taking into account fundamental frequencies.

If all you ever need to test is the stepper / driver side of the motor, he is correct. If you need to go upstream very far, you'll hit the wall in a hurry. If renting a scope is as easy in the UK as the US, it's less of an issue.