Author Topic: Confusion on the Fluke 87V  (Read 13253 times)

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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #125 on: September 02, 2019, 05:04:39 pm »
I've watched that video before and it seems you do a bit of autodetecting as the equipment sets up the experiment? It seems that would add a fair bit of variability between tests as the run time and torque is different between tests. Obviously a rigidly standardized test can favour one design over another too. I can imagine some designs being more susceptible to oblique loading or pressure put on the switch. You do mention taking enough time to dissipate heat which should at least eliminate most of that factor.

Yes, as shown, the torque and end limits are determined by the software.  The stepper's output shaft needs to be perpendicular to the meter.   There is no downward force and the side loading is keep very low.   I am trying to see how the switch by itself behaves.  In the real world, the person has a firm grasp, pushes down, pulls up, turns them past the dead stops.....  Lots of variables I wanted to try and remove.   My tests also run non-stop as where in the real world, apparently people will spit shine their contacts every now and then.   

You can see that the fingers that turn the knob are very loose (on purpose).   The knob is never placed in a bind nor does it ever reach a hard stops.    I could have a 100Nm or torque available and it wouldn't make a difference.    I limit the torque for the case where something goes wrong (the test runs over several days).  I don't want the stepper motor to damage the meter.    This never turned out to be a problem.  The clamp holding the stepper motor and box securing the meters has never moved enough to cause any sort of bind or misalignment problem.  The Labview code that runs it is predictable as well.  It's not going into the weeds and trying to take over the world. 

Actually, my CEM was damaged when I loaned it out and the idiot tried to turn the knob past the dead stop (and succeeded).  I assume these highly educated people are rare and did not consider running a test to determine how much torque was required to defeat the dead stops on the meters I tested.  :-DD   

My test also doesn't require yellow sticky notes with obscure equations to try and decode the data.   :-DD   There was mention of putting the Toggle Bot back together to run some tests but I never heard anymore about it.   I had assumed this was for the new meters.   No time to run it?  No product to sell, so no reason to run it?  It did very poorly, so no reason to make a video about it?    One thing you get with my tests is pretty much in your face data.  I could care less how a particular meter holds up. 

Online Fungus

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #126 on: September 02, 2019, 07:48:31 pm »
What I don't like about Uni-T is that their quality and safety is all over the place. Some meters are decent and some aren't.

Yep. Even with the same model number you can never be sure what will be inside. There's "Euro" versions and "Chinese" versions with half the components missing. I wouldn't buy one unless I could open it up first.

 

Offline bd139

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #127 on: September 02, 2019, 07:53:13 pm »
Yeah as I mentioned earlier the euro spec ones are more expensive than a Fluke. Going back to Rapid a few years ago, a China spec UT61E was £39 delivered and one from rapid with some certs was £130. Screw that!
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #128 on: September 02, 2019, 08:06:16 pm »
Well, I just found TME.com so Brymen is back as an option.  Now I just need to sort through their models to find what I need.

Good find! They're selling them at Euro prices there.

I was also looking at the BM857.  Any major drawbacks on that model?

The stand's a bit wonky.

(although a strategic bit of string makes a huge difference if you really want to use it  :popcorn: )

The BM859 seems to be hitting the sweet spot for me.

Of course I will probably change my mind again by tomorrow.

The 859 has more analog bandwidth than the 857, is a bit more accurate, and has temperature. It's similar features to the 869S but smaller, no dual display, "only" CAT IV 600V.

If you haven't got anything else that measures temperature then it's a good option for 30 Euros more. Temperature's more useful than you think.

I have a BM857. It is an excellent and very sturdy meter, full of great features and very accurate.

 :-+

Given the 857 and the 867 are quite similar in price, the dual display is the only major difference between the two.

That, plus the 867 isn't 500,000 count.  :popcorn:
« Last Edit: September 02, 2019, 09:43:40 pm by Fungus »
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #129 on: September 02, 2019, 08:17:25 pm »

That, plus the 867 isn't 500,000 count.  :popcorn:

No, pretty sure they both are...
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #130 on: September 02, 2019, 08:42:03 pm »
It’s annoying as fuck that “feature”. The older 87 powers up in DC. I use that more than the 87V now

I can't even think of a good reason why they'd do it, it doesn't make the meter any safer or anything.

Presumably the chief engineer at Fluke only ever works on AC, prefers it that way, and can ignore all the complaints.
I have a hunch that now, they can't change it reasonably, because of big customers (e.g. military) who have maintenance procedures designed around a specific meter. Those big customers don't want to take the time and risk of retraining for new models, or risk having two different procedures side by side depending on which tool generation is on hand. (As far as I know, this is why Fluke even still bothers making non-TRMS meters like the 83V and 27 II, both of which seem to frequently sell for the same price or even higher than the superior TRMS 87V and 28 II.)


Don't you get Low Z when you shift the AC V measurement?
As others already said, no, it's the low pass filter. What I wanted to add is that the 87V does not have a LoZ mode at all. (If one needs a LoZ mode on most Fluke meters, you use the SV225 stray voltage adapter.)
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #131 on: September 02, 2019, 09:14:07 pm »

That, plus the 867 isn't 500,000 count.  :popcorn:

No, pretty sure they both are...

Oh, yes. The 867 is the baby 869.  :palm:

(...but somehow it's cheaper than the 857, very weird!)
 

Online 2N3055

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #132 on: September 02, 2019, 10:10:53 pm »

That, plus the 867 isn't 500,000 count.  :popcorn:

No, pretty sure they both are...

Oh, yes. The 867 is the baby 869.  :palm:

(...but somehow it's cheaper than the 857, very weird!)
Economics is weird...
 

Offline electricMN

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #133 on: September 03, 2019, 12:04:04 am »
Well, I just found TME.com so Brymen is back as an option.  Now I just need to sort through their models to find what I need.

I bought a BM869s from them and the shipping was a very reasonable $9.90. Not bad at all considering they are in Poland.
I later bought a BM257 also since I wanted something smaller for field use.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 12:09:10 am by electricMN »
 

Offline bd139

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #134 on: September 03, 2019, 08:11:26 am »
TME are great. Their consignments arrive here in the UK usually before local suppliers do.
 

Offline zelmoTopic starter

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #135 on: September 03, 2019, 07:34:01 pm »
I had read some negative reviews on the 87V which I didn’t understand so I started this thread for clarification. Little did I know how generous you guys would be with your time and knowledge.

Not only did you clear up the question about the 87V you gave me valuable information and suggestions regarding other DMMs.  That allowed me to make an informed decision and I pulled the trigger on a BM859 from TME.

I don’t know how long it will take for me to receive it as I have never ordered anything from Poland before.  Whatever it takes it will be worth the wait as I paid about half of what the 87V would’ve cost. 

Thank you.
 
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Offline frogg

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #136 on: September 03, 2019, 07:51:40 pm »
It puzzles me why the Fluke 179 is for electronics, and the 87 for electricians, when the 179 has bandwidth of 1KHz and no uA range, and the 87V has a stated bandwidth of 20KHz.

IMHO, that's because the Fluke 179 is not for electronics.

Regardless of the 87V's stated bandwidth of 20khz, it's not for electronics either.

Handheld DMMs are almost always compromises because they are battery operated and have severely limiting form factors.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2019, 07:58:32 pm by frogg »
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #137 on: September 03, 2019, 08:39:03 pm »
I had read some negative reviews on the 87V which I didn’t understand so I started this thread for clarification. Little did I know how generous you guys would be with your time and knowledge.

Not only did you clear up the question about the 87V you gave me valuable information and suggestions regarding other DMMs.  That allowed me to make an informed decision and I pulled the trigger on a BM859 from TME.

I don’t know how long it will take for me to receive it as I have never ordered anything from Poland before.  Whatever it takes it will be worth the wait as I paid about half of what the 87V would’ve cost. 

Thank you.
What made you pick the BM859 over the BM869?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #138 on: September 03, 2019, 08:43:36 pm »
IMHO, that's because the Fluke 179 is not for electronics.

Regardless of the 87V's stated bandwidth of 20khz, it's not for electronics either.

Handheld DMMs are almost always compromises because they are battery operated and have severely limiting form factors.
It always surprises me to see people claim this and that meter aren’t for electronics when droves of people are using them for that exact purpose and seem happy enough.
 
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Online Fungus

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #139 on: September 03, 2019, 08:54:31 pm »
It always surprises me to see people claim this and that meter aren’t for electronics when droves of people are using them for that exact purpose and seem happy enough.

Define "electronics"...  :popcorn:

My personal definition says that anything without a uA range is useless.
 
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Offline tooki

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #140 on: September 03, 2019, 09:02:36 pm »
Meanwhile, I have yet to do anything in electronics where I needed to measure µA. So that's certainly not a hard-and-fast rule. ;)
 

Offline tooki

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #141 on: September 03, 2019, 09:08:49 pm »
Not only did you clear up the question about the 87V you gave me valuable information and suggestions regarding other DMMs.  That allowed me to make an informed decision and I pulled the trigger on a BM859 from TME.
Congrats. Glad it helped!

FWIW, when people ask why people pay for Fluke (or Brymen, Gossen, Hioki, or any other truly reputable brand), the reason is trust and confidence. I have an 87V, and I have complete confidence that the measurement on the screen is correct. I can't say the same for my better-on-paper Keysight U1252B, which has just enough quirks that I don't quite trust it. (And if it and the Fluke disagree, there's no question which one I believe.) It's weird how Keysight makes outstanding bench meters, but questionable handheld ones.

Brymen is the only value-priced brand that seems to have earned itself an equivalent reputation in confidence. They haven't been around long enough to build a reputation for long-term durability (Flukes are famous for staying in-spec for decades), but are doing well so far. So I think you have made a great choice.
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #142 on: September 03, 2019, 09:10:56 pm »
I had read some negative reviews on the 87V which I didn’t understand so I started this thread for clarification. Little did I know how generous you guys would be with your time and knowledge.

Not only did you clear up the question about the 87V you gave me valuable information and suggestions regarding other DMMs.  That allowed me to make an informed decision and I pulled the trigger on a BM859 from TME.

I don’t know how long it will take for me to receive it as I have never ordered anything from Poland before.  Whatever it takes it will be worth the wait as I paid about half of what the 87V would’ve cost. 

Thank you.
Congratulations on your purchase! You'll love your new meter.

I had ordered a few bits from TME and their service and delivery were quite good; I had received things within 7 days.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline rsjsouza

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #143 on: September 03, 2019, 09:15:18 pm »
Meanwhile, I have yet to do anything in electronics where I needed to measure µA. So that's certainly not a hard-and-fast rule. ;)
I use µA quite often, but all my meters (even the "for electronics" ones) have way too much burden voltage for 2.4V~3.3V battery operated systems. I use Dave's µCurrent gizmo for that.

FWIW, when people ask why people pay for Fluke (or Brymen, Gossen, Hioki, or any other truly reputable brand), the reason is trust and confidence. I have an 87V, and I have complete confidence that the measurement on the screen is correct. I can't say the same for my better-on-paper Keysight U1252B, which has just enough quirks that I don't quite trust it. (And if it and the Fluke disagree, there's no question which one I believe.) It's weird how Keysight makes outstanding bench meters, but questionable handheld ones.
Funny how you say that; I also trust the Flukes and the Brymen I have. The U1273A is quite good in terms of features, but to me the U1282A really oozes confidence at the same level of the two above. Totally personal opinion, of course.
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 
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Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #144 on: September 04, 2019, 11:18:17 am »
Define "electronics"...  :popcorn:

My personal definition says that anything without a uA range is useless.
I know you're just janking chains here but the keyword is "personal". Few people will do uA measurements and nothing else.
 

Offline zelmoTopic starter

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #145 on: September 04, 2019, 11:35:00 am »

What made you pick the BM859 over the BM869?

Looking back at how I have used a meter in the past I couldn't think of one time I would have used the dual screen so I went with the slightly smaller form factor.
 
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Offline zelmoTopic starter

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #146 on: September 04, 2019, 11:48:53 am »
I need more help.  I like to keep a digital copy of manuals on the computer.  I can't find one online for the BM859S.

Can someone tell me where to find it?
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #147 on: September 04, 2019, 11:57:45 am »
I need more help.  I like to keep a digital copy of manuals on the computer.  I can't find one online for the BM859S.

Can someone tell me where to find it?
Without trying to be pedantic this was the first hit I got on "brymen bm859s manual". :P

http://www.brymen.com/images/ProductsList/BM850s_List/BM850s-manual-text-preprint-r3.pdf
 

Offline zelmoTopic starter

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #148 on: September 04, 2019, 12:10:48 pm »
Wow.  I did a search but for Brymen BM859 manual and it didn't come up.  Funny that the "s" would make a difference.

I also looked at Brymen's website and couldn't find it.

Thank you.
« Last Edit: September 04, 2019, 12:14:14 pm by zelmo »
 

Online Fungus

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Re: Confusion on the Fluke 87V
« Reply #149 on: September 04, 2019, 12:11:19 pm »
What made you pick the BM859 over the BM869?
Looking back at how I have used a meter in the past I couldn't think of one time I would have used the dual screen so I went with the slightly smaller form factor.

Me too. I don't think I'm ever going to look at DC+AC simultaneously and I preferred the shape/size/look of the BM857.
 


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