Decent modern Signal/waveform Generator here in early 2024

[DaneLaw]

Looking for a relatively cheap modern signal generator, that is easy to adjust settings on. (important) and a step up from the cheap sub-100buck budget Chinese ones.

The last handful of years, been using an FY6900 DDS 60Mhz, it's been okay for the price but one annoyance is the cumbersome interface.  http://tinyurl.com/yckw8jxv
do cherish the ability to run it from the scopes USB-socket or a power bank and the mobility that comes with that.
* decent big screen, perhaps num-dial, perhaps touch, hackable?, dBm,

Budget is a relative lose 300 euros and what the alternatives are in that pricebracket (incl. VAT) its a more-or-less figure, can be more..

Wonder what direction people would go, with that budget in mind, and if they were in the market for a general function/waveform generator in early 2024?

[slugrustle]

Perhaps this isn't too helpful, as I don't know the market, but I'm happy with the Siglent SDG1032X that I use.  My biggest complaint is that the setup for an inverted pulse waveform (idle high, pulse low) is confusing.  I haven't used the arbitrary function on it yet, mostly just pulses and sine waves.  I wish it had double pulse capability; it doesn't.

I used a Rigol DG812 at work maybe sometime in 2020, and the interface was really buggy.  Otherwise, it seemed to work.  Hopefully they have much improved the firmware by now.

My requirements are not very high in terms of performance.  The main thing I look for is full 20Vpk-pk (±10Vpk) output on both channels.  Some models only give you that range on the first channel and something narrower on the second channel.

[Mechatrommer]

missing numeric pads is why i choose Uni-T UTG962 over FY6900. i know one day people will realize this if not mentioning it in public... UTG962 is small form factor and accepts 5V (DC jack) the drawback is trying to play arbitrary signal with it is a bit cumbersome. but i dont use arbitrary much. ymmv.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-utg932utg962-200msas-function-arbitrary-waveform-generator-220394

[bdunham7]

I wish it had double pulse capability; it doesn't.

Draw your own and save it as an ARB waveform!

[DaneLaw]

The Siglent SDG1000 and their entry units SDG1032 seem to have been extremely popular across the board, and the unit many people have purchased when looking for a decent sig-gen in that price bracket between 350 to 500 euros, also seems upgradeable' as far as I can tell, so no wonder its been the obvious choice for many, but it also looks like its closing in at 8 years since release which is a chunk in techworld regi, and likely not far from a new SG-version..

* SDG1032X - 30 MHz - 150 MSa/s - 14bit - 16 kpts - 2 CH - 362EURO (Incl. 25%VATDK)
* DG811 - 10Mhz - 125 MSa/s - 16bit - 2 Mpts - 1 ch - 300 EURO  (Incl. 25%VATDK) (this Rigol line also looks upgradeable, so the 1ch con could be countered)

The Owon UTG 30/60 line, is not on the plate, as it lacks some of the features, and its price is elevated quite a bit in the last few years (incl. VAT its around 200 and 250 depending on freq-model, which is around and in some cases more than double the 2019/2020 level.

[mawyatt]

A little above your budget but the SDG2042X is really a good AWG, easily "Enhanced" with help of clever folks on here to 120MHz.

If you have a Siglent DSO, then the SDG2042X works directly for Bode Function use, even allowing Frequency (and Phase, Amplitude) Offset sweeps as shown here with the built-in Channel Coupling Frequency Deviation feature:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-sds2000x-plus-coming/4375/

Best,

[Martin72]

The SDG1032X is in deed easy upgradeable to 1062X.
That was my previous device, I currently have the SDG2042X, or 2122X...
At work we have generators from Keysight, Rigol, GwInstek and Siglent.
Rigol and Siglent because they have 2 channels, something I wouldn't want to do without.
If you can't/won't spend a lot of money, you can take the 1032X and upgrade to the 1062X.
Or a Rigol 2-channel from the same price range, I couldn't find any major advantages or disadvantages between the two.
I think the operation of all of them could be improved, which would be a sign of modernity for me if rigol and siglent were to change this.
And I still dream of a dedicated CMOS level output...

[tautech]

And I still dream of a dedicated CMOS level output...

16 channels enough ? 
SDG7000A.

[Martin72]

+15V Level?
OK, then I´ll take one....Wait a minute...9400€ entry-price....No Sir, thanks.

[Mechatrommer]

Wait a minute...9400€ entry-price...

may the force be with you..

[2N3055]

One thing to note is that Rigols are hackable but in a way that after "upgrade" they are not fully adjusted in whole new BW.
Rigol is not doing that. After "upgrade", "liberated" BW is not properly leveled. There are topics here on that...
Funny enough, older Rigol DG1000Z was fully calibrated and adjusted so that one worked properly even after "upgrade".

[wasedadoc]

In case you want to measure very low resistances ....

What is the relevance of that to the OP's question?

[blackdog]

Hi,

There are multiple function generators here.
As are power supplies and multimeters. :-)

The Siglent SDG1032X is the cheapest function generator I have here in the pictures and it is the most used.
Why, look at the picture showing how much abberation is present on the pulse display.
This is of course only one of the many functions of such a generator, but what is important for me, for the measurements I often do.

The Siglent SDG2042 is a 16Bit generator and that sometimes has its advantages and finally the Rigol DG4162 which has the important advantage of a 160MHz bandwidth.

The test condition here is 900mV TT at 50 Ohm.
This is because the Siglent SDG1032X has a special output amplifier if you stay below 1V TT output voltage.

The coax cables are good quality and I use a 20dB BNC attenuator on the scoop inputs to keep the corresponding generator from seeing reflections from the 50 Ohm scope input.

First picture
Here you can clearly see that the pulse of the Siglent SDG1032X has the highest quality.
SDG1032x = 3.3nSec
SDG2042x = 8nSec
DG4162     = 4.2nSec


.
This is the contraption to show how this measurement was done.
Everything is locked to a GPS reference and I had to make quite a few phase adjustments to compensate for generator delays and cable length variations. :-)


.
This picture is to show you how to get the best possible pulse on your scope, usually use at least a 10dB attenuator of good bandwidth and turn on the 50 Ohm input of your scope.
Also use quality good coax cables and connectors! Don't kid yourself.


.
So if a really nice pulse response is important to you then I could recommend the Siglent SDG1032.

That's the reason I bought it, even though I already had plenty of function generators.
Here in the Netherlands this Siglent SDG1032X costs about 335 Euro and I than recommend this generator to many people.
A lot of hobbyists and Pro users are not really aware of the possibilities that the modern function generators give you.

Example
Last week tested some AM detectors for demodulation distortion, a week before that tested some Darlingtons and Sziklai pairs for bandwidth directly fed from the SDG1032X.
If you need a DC source, you can also use the function generator in a number of applications and there are many more.

I wish I could have bought something like a Siglent SDG1032X 30 years ago.
Back when I still had a lot of HAM applications for my hobby.

I hope this helps a little in the considerations.
And then I haven't discussed a lot of features of modern feature generators.

Kind regards,
Bram

[nctnico]

missing numeric pads is why i choose Uni-T UTG962 over FY6900. i know one day people will realize this if not mentioning it in public... UTG962 is small form factor and accepts 5V (DC jack) the drawback is trying to play arbitrary signal with it is a bit cumbersome. but i dont use arbitrary much. ymmv.

IMHO the Uni-t models are a good buy. The more expensive Siglent SDG1000 doesn't bring much extra to the table in this market segment so value for money is low.

And I still dream of a dedicated CMOS level output...

Forget about that. The problem is that a waveform generator doesn't have the features you really need in a digital pattern generator. Been there, done that. If you want a digital pattern generator, then buy a digital pattern generator with good software.

[blackdog]

Hi

The more expensive Siglent SDG1000 doesn't bring much extra to the table in this market segment so value for money is low.

That of course depends on what your application is, for your applications the Uni-T suffices thats OK, others and I obviously have different preferences, that's how life is. 

Kind regards,
Bram

[nctnico]

Hi

The more expensive Siglent SDG1000 doesn't bring much extra to the table in this market segment so value for money is low.

That of course depends on what your application is, for your applications the Uni-T suffices thats OK, others and I obviously have different preferences, that's how life is. 

That is the kicker, there is next to nothing the SDG1000 is actually better at compared to the UTG932 / UTG962. And the UTG932 / UTG962 have better specs compared to the SDG1000 where it comes to jitter for example.

[KungFuJosh]

I used to have the UTG932. It was really nice, and really small. I liked it.

[Smokey]

Do any of these units have programmable/adjustable rise and fall times?  I had an application that I needed to dial in a specific rise and fall time on the edges and my present function gen can't do that.
 I'm looking for that as a feature on the next thing I get.
I get that I could probably write an arb routine to set that, but I just want to be able to tweak rise/fall times on the fly on the square wave. 

[nctnico]

Both SDG1000 and UTG900 series have this feature and are pretty much on par.

[tautech]

Do any of these units have programmable/adjustable rise and fall times?  I had an application that I needed to dial in a specific rise and fall time on the edges and my present function gen can't do that.
 I'm looking for that as a feature on the next thing I get.
I get that I could probably write an arb routine to set that, but I just want to be able to tweak rise/fall times on the fly on the square wave.

Certainly SDG1000X supports adjustable rise and fall times in Pulse mode.
You can see this in the User manual P129
https://int.siglent.com/u_file/download/22_06_23/SDG1000X_UserManual_UM0201X-E01E.pdf

[Smokey]

Cool.  Thanks.

[Martin72]

Both SDG1000 and UTG900 series have this feature and are pretty much on par.

Which of the two do you use yourself, or even both?
I am also a friend of as cheap as possible and also think that some manufacturers are simply overpriced.
But if something costs almost half as much but is supposed to be just as good, as you said, then I have "natural doubts".

[MathWizard]

I have the SDG2042X, and I've had no problems with it. 1st ever real sig. gen, and it's easy to use.

Sometimes I would like it if when changing frequency on the 1M digit, it would go down to 900kHz, not 0Hz, when you turn the knob. But sometimes that's ok.

The 2042X is great for the money. I have my eye on the SDG6022X, that will suit me perfect, and the next range, the RF gen's 7000series, are way way more expensive, so I'll be delighted if I can hack it to 500MHz.

[RoGeorge]

Rigol DG4162 which has the important advantage of a 160MHz bandwidth.

Thanks for the printscreen with all the 3 outputs.  Looks like there is a small reflection coming back, the step after the 1st division at each edge, most visible on the Rigol trace.

For that Rigol DG4000 series, there are 3-4 models with same hardware and software limited to 60...200MHz.  Just so you know, any DG4000 model can be unlocked to 200MHz (sinusoidal) and turned into a DG4202.

14bits DACs, 2 output channels, it's nice to have signal and sync out BNCs for each output, external trigger, and has a 200MHz counter/frequency meter, too, with a BNC on the back.  Can generate up to +/-10Vpp in a 50ohms load (at lower frequencies, at 200MHz only 1Vpp), and has a DC mode, too, which makes it a dual channel +/-20V adjustable voltage source with a 50ohms internal resistance, so it can power small current loads as if it were a power supply. 

Has 10MHz in/out, too, to drive the internal clock synchronized with other instruments.  Worked OK so far, though it costs 2-3 times the 300 euro proposed budget.

[2N3055]

Hi

The more expensive Siglent SDG1000 doesn't bring much extra to the table in this market segment so value for money is low.

That of course depends on what your application is, for your applications the Uni-T suffices thats OK, others and I obviously have different preferences, that's how life is. 

That is the kicker, there is next to nothing the SDG1000 is actually better at compared to the UTG932 / UTG962. And the UTG932 / UTG962 have better specs compared to the SDG1000 where it comes to jitter for example.

While I think that UTG962 is good value for money, and certainly much better than what you would expect for the price, let's not get carried away.
SDG1000X is a piece of entry level "proper"  lab equipment. Square wave edges on UTG962 are 16 ns, and 4ns for SDG1000X.
On UTG962 jitter is actually better, but only at >5MHz. At below 5MHz it is 2ppm+200ps VS 0.005 ppm+300ps on SDG1000X.
UTG962 has no PWM modulation, ?
Timebase accuracy is worse on UTG962. It is a small plastic box with external wall plug type PSU.
Which can be useful if you need to carry it around and need something simple for small desk...
It would make very nice little AWG for a go bag with Micsig or Pico, together with one of those MiniWare PSU.
I agree that for most hobby users and even for pro use as a kind of "around the shop" little handy AWG, UTG962 is worth it's money.
Most people will never need more.

But the SDG1000X is more expensive for a reason, as are Rigol entry level AWG.  Is it worth the money difference, is up to every one to decide for themselves.

[DaneLaw]

Are the fan noise an issue on the Siglents SDG2xxxX line, as it is a potent fellow with 1.2GSa/s, - way higher than both the SDG1000X (150MSsa) series and Rigols DG800 (125MSa) & 900 series (250MSa) as unsteady fan-noise, on Rigols latest sig gen are killing it for me & not what I had hoped & hard to love, not least after their "fanless" DG800/900 focus.
And likely anybody's guess when Siglent revamps these model segments.

Been watching a few reviews, and I can not even sense the fan on the SDG2042X Siglents, seems weirdly quiet even in videos where the user is sitting close to it...
Have noticed that many of the users on the forum purchased the SDG1032X or the bigger brother SDG2042x, makes sense, seems like a very solid build, from the teardowns and very beefy fundamentals in this price segment..

the SDG2042x still seems to go for around 600 euros, here in northern Europe, while abroad Amazon US it's a tad over 400 euro, been trying to see if the age late 2015/early 2016 signifies in any shortcomings, but then again its not like the wheel been reinvented since, many of the features are pretty fundamental, but still, some new adv features. do see daylight from time to time, and can meet a bottleneck in older hardware.
all the benefits are obvious., often more mature os, less bugs, a huge user back-catalog of info you can lean on and debate with etc..

Any comparable videos or articles, between Siglent SDG1000/2000 series and Rigol DG800/900, to give an insight into pros & cons..?

[tautech]

SDG1000X has a different output stage than the earlier 2000X models which provides faster rise time than its bigger brother.
Apart from that, lower BW and 14 vs 16bit they are much the same.

Otherwise we need go to SDG6000X to get a faster edge, higher BW etc.

[2N3055]

Are the fan noise an issue on the Siglents SDG2xxxX line, as it is a potent fellow with 1.2GSa/s, - way higher than both the SDG1000X (150MSsa) series and Rigols DG800 (125MSa) & 900 series (250MSa) as unsteady fan-noise, on Rigols latest sig gen are killing it for me & not what I had hoped & hard to love, not least after their "fanless" DG800/900 focus.
And likely anybody's guess when Siglent revamps these model segments.

Been watching a few reviews, and I can not even sense the fan on the SDG2042X Siglents, seems weirdly quiet even in videos where the user is sitting close to it...
Have noticed that many of the users on the forum purchased the SDG1032X or the bigger brother SDG2042x, makes sense, seems like a very solid build, from the teardowns and very beefy fundamentals in this price segment..

the SDG2042x still seems to go for around 600 euros, here in northern Europe, while abroad Amazon US it's a tad over 400 euro, been trying to see if the age late 2015/early 2016 signifies in any shortcomings, but then again its not like the wheel been reinvented since, many of the features are pretty fundamental, but still, some new adv features. do see daylight from time to time, and can meet a bottleneck in older hardware.
all the benefits are obvious., often more mature os, less bugs, a huge user back-catalog of info you can lean on and debate with etc..

Any comparable videos or articles, between Siglent SDG1000/2000 series and Rigol DG800/900, to give an insight into pros & cons..?

Just a note, make sure to call them 1000X and 2000X because there is older model 1000 without X suffix.

In a nutshell ?

SDG1000X has very good pulse creation specs. AWG memory is on smaller side (16k).
SDG2000X has better analog performance (sinewave distortion), better level specs, goes to 120 MHz. AWG memory is much longer.

For general purpose work 1000X is sufficient. For pulse work, it is better.
2000X has better stability and lower distortion. It is better for analog and AWG work.

[DaneLaw]

One thing to note is that Rigols are hackable but in a way that after "upgrade" they are not fully adjusted in whole new BW.
Rigol is not doing that. After "upgrade", "liberated" BW is not properly leveled. There are topics here on that...
Funny enough, older Rigol DG1000Z was fully calibrated and adjusted so that one worked properly even after "upgrade".

Which Rigol model are you referring to?
the current lineup? the "not fully adjusted", meaning a lack of linearity in the liberated range?? how sever?

[2N3055]

One thing to note is that Rigols are hackable but in a way that after "upgrade" they are not fully adjusted in whole new BW.
Rigol is not doing that. After "upgrade", "liberated" BW is not properly leveled. There are topics here on that...
Funny enough, older Rigol DG1000Z was fully calibrated and adjusted so that one worked properly even after "upgrade".

Which Rigol model are you referring to?
the current lineup? the "not fully adjusted", meaning a lack of linearity in the liberated range?? how sever?

New DG800/900 series.. I mean, new, it has been few years now, since 2018...
Not lack of linearity, but output levels in "liberated" ranges drops off. By a lot..
There are numerous other problems too, software being buggy...
There is a hack topic and it is all there.

Shame. I like old DS1000Z, for what it is, and have kept it, despite having SDG6000X and SDG7000A available.

In meantime Rigol released new DGxxxPro series of AWG with yet another brand new OS and interface.
New system to again debug from the scratch, without ever committing enough resources to fully polish and debug old ones...

[Mechatrommer]

SDG1000X is a piece of entry level "proper"  lab equipment. Square wave edges on UTG962 are 16 ns, and 4ns for SDG1000X.

is that matters? rise time? synch output of UTG900 is 963ps (~1ns)... other facts, GUI doesnt go to 0 when twist knob from 1MHz, it will go cleverly down to 900kHz, fwiw...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/uni-t-utg932utg962-200msas-function-arbitrary-waveform-generator-220394/msg2927402/#msg2927402

[cncjerry]

Only issue with the Siglent 1032x, which is upgraded in my case, is the frequency resolution isn't as expected.  I need a 10,000,001hz signal and even with a common reference, it is measured as 10,000,000.988hz.  I think I read that the resolution is .023hz.  I have other synthesizers, some over 30yrs old, that get a lot closer with resolution to .001hz

[nctnico]

Only issue with the Siglent 1032x, which is upgraded in my case, is the frequency resolution isn't as expected.  I need a 10,000,001hz signal and even with a common reference, it is measured as 10,000,000.988hz.  I think I read that the resolution is .023hz.  I have other synthesizers, some over 30yrs old, that get a lot closer with resolution to .001hz

That is the 'problem' with these low cost generators. I have tested various units from several brands but they all have the same problem; the DDS resolution is not very high so the accuracy of the frequency setting is not very high despite the units touting a setting resolution of 1uHz. Unfortunately the number of significant digits (and thus the accuracy) for the frequency is often not specified in the datasheet. If you need precise timing performance, you need to look at generators from Keysight or Tektronix (AFG31000 series for example).

[2N3055]

Only issue with the Siglent 1032x, which is upgraded in my case, is the frequency resolution isn't as expected.  I need a 10,000,001hz signal and even with a common reference, it is measured as 10,000,000.988hz.  I think I read that the resolution is .023hz.  I have other synthesizers, some over 30yrs old, that get a lot closer with resolution to .001hz

That is because it is not a synthesizer, it is NCO.
And none of modern AWG will be synthesizers in classical sense with PLL dividers and such.
If there are some, you bet it will be obviously stated in a datasheet.

Data you stated would mean frequency setting resolution of 23 ppb....
Is that not good enough?
For 340 €?

[DaneLaw]

One thing to note is that Rigols are hackable but in a way that after "upgrade" they are not fully adjusted in whole new BW.
Rigol is not doing that. After "upgrade", "liberated" BW is not properly leveled. There are topics here on that...
Funny enough, older Rigol DG1000Z was fully calibrated and adjusted so that one worked properly even after "upgrade".

Which Rigol model are you referring to?
the current lineup? the "not fully adjusted", meaning a lack of linearity in the liberated range?? how sever?

New DG800/900 series.. I mean, new, it has been few years now, since 2018...
Not lack of linearity, but output levels in "liberated" ranges drops off. By a lot..
There are numerous other problems too, software being buggy...
There is a hack topic and it is all there.

Shame. I like old DS1000Z, for what it is, and have kept it, despite having SDG6000X and SDG7000A available.

In meantime Rigol released new DGxxxPro series of AWG with yet another brand new OS and interface.
New system to again debug from the scratch, without ever committing enough resources to fully polish and debug old ones...

I see, yes current lineup DG800 & DG900 which are these fanless units from Rigol with a quite distinct OS-theme that doesn't look anywhere like their new "Pro" models interface

I am familiar with the new Rigol DGxxxPro-line and its certain fundamental issues here the last few weeks in use, which makes me wanna look for alternatives and gain an overview' when it comes to a modern decent signal gen in early 2024.. - and some insight into which way people would go in 2024 if they were in the market for one.
Mostly 3 other models seem obvious SDG1032X and SDG2042X from Siglent and the entry Rigol DG811 as it looks like that  Rigol entry-unit are liberateable to higher revisions, though have to look into what extent the output drops, but all of them are AC-based and for good reason, hence stationary use.

After watching both Defpom SDG1032X video that tautec loan'ed him and Afrotechmods solid walkthru of the flagship SDG6052X and Dave's SDG2120X video where he compared it to the older SDG5082 and also the bigger Rigol DG4xxx that blackdog displayed risetime against (thx).. I'm starting to get my heading and the pros & cons between the models.

[nctnico]

Only issue with the Siglent 1032x, which is upgraded in my case, is the frequency resolution isn't as expected.  I need a 10,000,001hz signal and even with a common reference, it is measured as 10,000,000.988hz.  I think I read that the resolution is .023hz.  I have other synthesizers, some over 30yrs old, that get a lot closer with resolution to .001hz

That is because it is not a synthesizer, it is NCO.
And none of modern AWG will be synthesizers in classical sense with PLL dividers and such.
If there are some, you bet it will be obviously stated in a datasheet.

Data you stated would mean frequency setting resolution of 23 ppb....

That is only one sample point. Without knowing the guaranteed significant digits for the frequency setting, you don't know how big the error is worst case. In the end the DDS has a finite number of bits; the error between wanted and actual frequency depends on that and this error can be much bigger than 23ppb. It is like a divider based baudrate generator. Some frequencies can be created perfectly, other frequencies have a significant error.

[2N3055]

Only issue with the Siglent 1032x, which is upgraded in my case, is the frequency resolution isn't as expected.  I need a 10,000,001hz signal and even with a common reference, it is measured as 10,000,000.988hz.  I think I read that the resolution is .023hz.  I have other synthesizers, some over 30yrs old, that get a lot closer with resolution to .001hz

That is because it is not a synthesizer, it is NCO.
And none of modern AWG will be synthesizers in classical sense with PLL dividers and such.
If there are some, you bet it will be obviously stated in a datasheet.

Data you stated would mean frequency setting resolution of 23 ppb....

That is only one sample point. Without knowing the guaranteed significant digits for the frequency setting, you don't know how big the error is worst case. In the end the DDS has a finite number of bits; the error between wanted and actual frequency depends on that and this error can be much bigger than 23ppb. It is like a divider based baudrate generator. Some frequencies can be created perfectly, other frequencies have a significant error.

Actually, just quickly tried..

I can set 10ppb of set frequency at 10 Mhz and 100Mhz. Dead accurately. That is 10 µHz resolution at 10 Mhz.
I typed in 10.000 000 43 MHz and got exactly that. I cannot go better than that at this moment, 10 digits is limit of counter i have here.

Later I will check in more detail...

For Tektronix you have I see specification of: Frequency accuracy ±10^-6 of setting (all except ARB)

It is obviously more complicated than simple number.

But my point is : those are set frequency resolutions in ppb.... Why is that an issue on 340 € AWG with +- 25 ppm initial frequency accuracy...

[DaneLaw]

How accurate are these 10Mhz reference in/out sources on entry test-gear, like modern DDS-based signal generators.

Got a reading that looks like +40Hz by taking the 10Mhz in/out up the Rigol unit's own counter., is that more or less what to expect on entry units in the sub 300 price cat or more the counters limitasions'

[nctnico]

How accurate are these 10Mhz reference in/out sources on entry test-gear, like modern DDS-based signal generators.

Got a reading that looks like +40Hz by taking the 10Mhz in/out up the Rigol unit's own counter., is that more or less what to expect on entry units in the sub 300 price cat or more the counters limitasions'

It could be the counter, it could be the generator. A quick test for generators with two or more channels is to have it output 2 frequencies at exact multiples but far apart. Like 1Hz and 10MHz. Then trigger an oscilloscope on the lower frequency. Most of the sub 1000 euro generators I tested show a drift on the higher frequency indicating there is a frequency offset between them. Also locking to a 10MHz source properly is something you shouldn't expect to work flawlessly (as in no frequency offset).

It doesn't mean low cost function generators are bad but you have to be aware of their limitations where it comes to frequency accuracy (which -again- is typically not specified on sub 1000 euro generators).

[2N3055]

How accurate are these 10Mhz reference in/out sources on entry test-gear, like modern DDS-based signal generators.

Got a reading that looks like +40Hz by taking the 10Mhz in/out up the Rigol unit's own counter., is that more or less what to expect on entry units in the sub 300 price cat or more the counters limitasions'

It could be the counter, it could be the generator. A quick test for generators with two or more channels is to have it output 2 frequencies at exact multiples but far apart. Like 1Hz and 10MHz. Then trigger an oscilloscope on the lower frequency. Most of the sub 1000 euro generators I tested show a drift on the higher frequency indicating there is a frequency offset between them. Also locking to a 10MHz source properly is something you shouldn't expect to work flawlessly (as in no frequency offset).

It doesn't mean low cost function generators are bad but you have to be aware of their limitations where it comes to frequency accuracy (which -again- is typically not specified on sub 1000 euro generators).

Synthesized frequency resolution is usually specified on most of them to the point of being better than frequency stability of timebase (initial accuracy, drift, tempco) which will be largest contributor to frequency accuracy..

But, he is connecting AWG internal 10MHz ref out to AWG internal counter, that is running from the same reference I presume... It should count exactly 10.000000 or maybe one last count up down... It is self referenced.

[nctnico]

How accurate are these 10Mhz reference in/out sources on entry test-gear, like modern DDS-based signal generators.

Got a reading that looks like +40Hz by taking the 10Mhz in/out up the Rigol unit's own counter., is that more or less what to expect on entry units in the sub 300 price cat or more the counters limitasions'

It could be the counter, it could be the generator. A quick test for generators with two or more channels is to have it output 2 frequencies at exact multiples but far apart. Like 1Hz and 10MHz. Then trigger an oscilloscope on the lower frequency. Most of the sub 1000 euro generators I tested show a drift on the higher frequency indicating there is a frequency offset between them. Also locking to a 10MHz source properly is something you shouldn't expect to work flawlessly (as in no frequency offset).

It doesn't mean low cost function generators are bad but you have to be aware of their limitations where it comes to frequency accuracy (which -again- is typically not specified on sub 1000 euro generators).

Synthesized frequency resolution is usually specified on most of them to the point of being better than frequency stability of timebase (initial accuracy, drift, tempco) which will be largest contributor to frequency accuracy..

But, he is connecting AWG internal 10MHz ref out to AWG internal counter, that is running from the same reference I presume... It should count exactly 10.000000 or maybe one last count up down... It is self referenced.

That is the point I'm trying to get across here: On many sub 1000 euro (ballpark figure) generators you won't get exactly 10MHz. Or exactly 1Hz even when referenced from an external source. And once again, resolution is not accuracy! You may be able to set a frequency in 1uHz units but the generator doesn't have the internal divider/multiplier resolution to achieve such an accurate setting. The test I outlined by setting two frequencies is easy to do without needing external references.

[rhb]

FWIW  I got burned by an early FY6600 and bought a used 33622A from Keysight's ebay store.  It is awesome, but came at a very steep price.  However, no regrets despite the $3500 price.  At $9k new it's a bit much.  At .03% THD (measured at 0.028% by my 339A) and < 1 ps jitter (verified against a GPSDO) it's my benchmark signal source for HF.

Despite swearing I'd never buy another F***Tech product I broke down and bought an FY6900.  In head to head testing the most serious deficit is the FY6900 reference XO.  With 1 ppb OXCOs for <$25, that's easy to fix.  On instruments with external 10 MHz inputs, you just need the OXCO in a suitable enclosure.  Ironically, my most expensive HPAK purchase is the only one without an OXCO.

The waveform distortion outside the 0.5001-5.0000 V range may be more difficult to fix.  I think an op amp swap cures that, but I may not bother as most of the time I want an AWG it's in that voltage range.  I have plenty of step attenuators to go lower.  And no use case for higher.  Though if I did a 33 dBm 1-930 MHz Chinese amplifier ought to do under 100 MHz.  The two I bought are flat to <1 dB according to my 8560A.

Both the 33622A and FY6900 UIs annoy me, but in different ways.  The motivation for the F***Elec is putting together the lowest cost full RF bench for HF ham bands simply to see what's possible.  Not being an EE, my access to suitable test kit was non-existent until a few years ago.  Now it's a mid '90s >$700k list suite.  But well over 30x what I think one can do today with reasonable effort.  The nanoVNA & $20 LCR/transistor tester and progeny have had  major impacts.

I think nctnico is spot on that it's more complicated, i.e. more factors to consider, than the datasheets indicate.

Have Fun!
Reg

[2N3055]

How accurate are these 10Mhz reference in/out sources on entry test-gear, like modern DDS-based signal generators.

Got a reading that looks like +40Hz by taking the 10Mhz in/out up the Rigol unit's own counter., is that more or less what to expect on entry units in the sub 300 price cat or more the counters limitasions'

It could be the counter, it could be the generator. A quick test for generators with two or more channels is to have it output 2 frequencies at exact multiples but far apart. Like 1Hz and 10MHz. Then trigger an oscilloscope on the lower frequency. Most of the sub 1000 euro generators I tested show a drift on the higher frequency indicating there is a frequency offset between them. Also locking to a 10MHz source properly is something you shouldn't expect to work flawlessly (as in no frequency offset).

It doesn't mean low cost function generators are bad but you have to be aware of their limitations where it comes to frequency accuracy (which -again- is typically not specified on sub 1000 euro generators).

Synthesized frequency resolution is usually specified on most of them to the point of being better than frequency stability of timebase (initial accuracy, drift, tempco) which will be largest contributor to frequency accuracy..

But, he is connecting AWG internal 10MHz ref out to AWG internal counter, that is running from the same reference I presume... It should count exactly 10.000000 or maybe one last count up down... It is self referenced.

That is the point I'm trying to get across here: On many sub 1000 euro (ballpark figure) generators you won't get exactly 10MHz. Or exactly 1Hz even when referenced from an external source. And once again, resolution is not accuracy! You may be able to set a frequency in 1uHz units but the generator doesn't have the internal divider/multiplier resolution to achieve such an accurate setting. The test I outlined by setting two frequencies is easy to do without needing external references.

My Rigol DG1000Z is not here at the moment.

But I know that SDG6000X  creates exactly 133.3333334 MHz when I set to it, for instance.
I took counter, set its reference to external and slaved it to 10MHz out from AWG.
That takes AWG and counter timebase out of equation, so we are measuring how accurate is AWG frequency synthesis accuracy and resolution.
Best counter I have is 10 digits and it was showing set frequency on AWG accurate to 10 digits.

10 digits accurate synthesis is 1ppb (0.001ppm) accuracy and resolution.
How many digits you expect to be there? 12, 15 ?  parts per trillion? parts per quadrillion?

It is an general purpose AWG. It is not rubidium frequency standard...

[Detlev]

I set 10,000,001Hz here on the SDG6022 and that's what I get at the output (see photo).

Both devices are synchronized to a Leo GPSDO

The frequency counter has a gate time of 1s and average 100 measurements. The statistics are also interesting here.

[Detlev]

My Rigol DG1000Z is not here at the moment.

But I know that SDG6000X  creates exactly 133.3333334 MHz when I set to it, for instance.
I took counter, set its reference to external and slaved it to 10MHz out from AWG.
That takes AWG and counter timebase out of equation, so we are measuring how accurate is AWG frequency synthesis accuracy and resolution.
Best counter I have is 10 digits and it was showing set frequency on AWG accurate to 10 digits.

10 digits accurate synthesis is 1ppb (0.001ppm) accuracy and resolution.
How many digits you expect to be there? 12, 15 ?  parts per trillion? parts per quadrillion?

It is an general purpose AWG. It is not rubidium frequency standard...

Yes 😎

[Detlev]

here again with 10.000 000 001MHz... count the zeros 🤣

I don't think it's bad for a hobby device 👍

[RoGeorge]

count the zeros 🤣

Yes, that's annoying, close to unusable.  There is still space left in the Siglent screen, so why they didn't add thousand separators?  Didn't they notice how unreadable that is?

How did they count the zeroes during developing, by measuring the text with a carpenters ruler? 

[Detlev]

count the zeros 🤣

Yes, that's annoying, close to unusable.  There is still space left in the Siglent screen, so why they didn't add thousand separators?  Didn't they notice how unreadable that is?

How did they count the zeroes during developing, by measuring the text with a carpenters ruler? 

Yes, it's not nice that you can enter more decimal places than the SDG can display afterwards

[Smokey]

I noticed that on the older SDG1010.  It will let you, from the front panel, enter more digits than it shows for values on the screen.
Like setting the duty cycle, it will only show 10.1% but it will let you enter 10.15%.  You can watch the signal change by that amount on the scope and see that it's actually doing it.

[NE666]

I am familiar with the new Rigol DGxxxPro-line and its certain fundamental issues here the last few weeks in use, which makes me wanna look for alternatives

Is there any chance that you might elaborate and share your findings with us?  Perhaps in the existing DG800/900Pro thread if that is more on topic?

Thanks in advance.

[DaneLaw]

I am familiar with the new Rigol DGxxxPro-line and its certain fundamental issues here the last few weeks in use, which makes me wanna look for alternatives

Is there any chance that you might elaborate and share your findings with us?  Perhaps in the existing DG800/900Pro thread if that is more on topic?

Thanks in advance.

Ofcourse NE666   
There are two licenses you can add in menu..ch & memory* (*2m to 8m)

It has a temp-regulated fan, that starts up after 3 to 5 minutes and pretty much stays on, even here in the wintertime, - you can get it to stop, by countering the heat with a small fan directed in the back, and the internal fan will cut off, but the fan will more or less constantly be on when in normal use.
When the fan is running, it's annoying as it is both whinny & cycles the fan with minute differences in speed, but could likely be optimized in firmware to an extent but also logical consequence on a unit simply 5½ cm thin, while being quite fast [625MSa/1.25GSa 16bits], but I had hoped it would be more silent after Rigol put so much emphasis on the last signal gen's fan-aspect [DG800 125MSa & DG900 250Msa] by making them passive with Rigols so-called innovative fanless-case design.

Sofar, I don't know if the DG800PRO series hardware-wise is the same as DG900PRO that in model hierarchy peaks at:
[200MHz - 16bits - 1.25GSas - 32M] but I highly doubt that Rigol would roll out the red carpet, so a DG800PRO could be liberated up to those DG922PRO-specifications, when you have in mind what a DG821PRO starts at.
There is a new Firmware on the Chinese Rigol site (date 12-01-2024) it does seem to be the exact same 73MB GEL file for both DG800PRO & DG900PRO. [00.01.00.00.21] 
The firmware & software values my unit arrived with [screen picture]
Worth noting these signal gens, do seem to get quite hot, a significant amount of the heat-flow are centered down at the table

Two aspects I really like, are the ability to run it from powerbanks and the 7" screen (1024x600) which makes adjustment & overall user input, way more enjoyable than my old signal gen FY6900.
Even though the screen on paper is merely 1" smaller than my Micsig STO-scope at 8" - it's still significantly smaller from the different aspect ratio of 16:9 vs 4:3 but for a Signal gen, 7" 16:9 touchscreen works well and hopefully this halfbaked mess of a UI where I constantly are meeting various bugs when cycling the menu, will be polished out.
I'm not in a position where I can be to harsh, as I am importing it fresh out of the oven from the Far East and seems to be a very early unit (serial 000013), and using its Western/english UI, while it hasn't been released yet in this region.

These new Rigol DGxxxPRO models have that kinky Rigol-num-dial-circle orientation that has been the norm on their PSUs for like a decade and seem quite hard to love & use (at least at first) I primarily use the touchscreen when adjusting values, works good..
The rotary knob is clickable and feels solid & rigid, not flimsy, and you can cycle the highlighted area around to the different segments, menus, etc. and when wanna go deeper, simply click down in the different menu layers.. works okay.
So far the interaction & input are a joy, but then again anything would likely be - when coming from the FY6900 user interface which are cumbersome to adjust settings on.
The boot-up time takes around 65 seconds, so quite slow, It runs Android 7.1.1

It got around 151 built-in waveforms from scratch, stacked into different categories.

You can sequence the waveforms to your heart's desire amongst the inbuilt  (64 in-line with individual control of loop-values (max 256) & length http://tinyurl.com/mr266mcj
The harmonics allovs up to 20 but also worth noting after watching Batterfly/Saelig's videos on the last gen, there seem to be some features missing' like some of the advanced waveforms, but most of these Batterfly/Saelig videos were done with a RIGOL DG992 signal generator (flagship) Will try to look through the EEVblog-thread on the last gen DG800 & DG900 series to get an idea if some of these features - not least centered around RF perhaps are being implemented with higher revisions, and wont figure on entry units like DG811/812..??

Screen dumps (35) of some of the values & limits on my unit  http://tinyurl.com/3p8w92aw  [IMGUR]

In regards to the fundamentals,  the datasheet & user manual will likely be better guidance, than my crude view.   
https://www.batterfly.com/PDF/RIGOL/DG800-Pro/DG800Pro-Series_datasheet_EN.pdf
https://www.batterfly.com/PDF/RIGOL/DG800-Pro/DG800Pro-Series_userguide_EN.pdf

My only comparable, hands-on Signal gen, is an FY6900/60MHz from Banggood GB/EU warehouse clearance sale..In regards to that unit - build quality, etc, it's night & day, which it should be, as the Rigol is more than 5 times more expensive.
The freq-counter allows up to 500Mhz with 7 digit res while DG900PRO opens up to 1GHz both allovs 8 modulation functions.

After 4 to 5 weeks of use, I am liking it more than I did the first weeks, not least after getting a better insight into what you can expect in this price bracket in early 2024, but the fan is annoying.
Will try to see if I can get it across on video, - I also have a temp-regulated fan in my Micsig STO/C-scope which is also quite thin at 5cm, and I have no issues with that fan, none - it gives a somewhat pleasant (for a fan) anonym background swoosh, where the DGxxPRO is a hysteric little whiny fellow, but it does look like it got a weirdly big amount of heat it needs to remove.

Two very important criteria for me' were mobility in lack of a dedicated bench-space & just overall easy interaction when adjusting and rigging waveforms, and both of these its does work well.
All the high current PD-able power banks I tested with work fine with it - 2x QD188-PD, Powercore24, USAMS-CD165, it stays in 15V PD from the start and uses around 35 watt.

The delivered price was a tad under 300 euros.. including both the 25% EUVAT and also the 22Euro VAT handling fee to PostNord.
Entry unit DG821PRO will likely be around that 300euro level when it's for sale in the EU, and 250 to 300US in the states, as the official retail-price in China is 1999CNY [250EURO] while upgrades are 499CNY each
I had hoped other people would be starting to get them about now, but according to both Eleshop & Batronix, it still seems to be some months ahead, and couldn't provide any stock estimates.

I purchased it under the AliExpress BF sale (November 2023), where the seller "Rigol & Fluke" made up a specific DG800PRO listing (after I asked, if he would) so I could take advantage of the Black Friday sale.. 
He made the listing on the promise I extended the delivery time, as they weren't available in China yet, though only a matter of a few weeks, and planned to be shipped in the first weeks of December 2023 which he more or less honored, as the date on the sig gen's counter FW is 12 dec 2023 
A good seller I had talked with previously about new products on the CN market and It looks to be quite an early unit (sn xxxx00000013).

In Nov/Dec 2023 it was still up for debate in China how hackable the DG800PRO series is, but if you can hack a DG821PRO up the DGxxxPRO ladder it could be a price-attractive approach to obtain a potent 16bit signal gen with a good portion of memory.

Accessories incl. were LITEON 65W TypeC PSU, 4mm grounding cable, BNC cable [3D-FB], and USB-A to USB-B PC cable.

[slavoy]

As my first generator, I bought a Siglent SDG1032X and I am very satisfied with it. I use it for various things, nothing with radio. It is probably the cheapest decent generator which works as it looks. Of course, I immediately upgraded to the 1064X after purchase Now I would like something over 100MHz, but the prices are high. Maybe I will decide on the 2000X or 6000X series as they remain one of the most affordable and easily upgradeable options I've found so far.

[flaotte]

I will interrupt the discussion 

looking for really cheap DDS generator. No real requirements. Just got my first scope, may be useful to learn how to use it, etc.
Most of stuff I do is small digital home automation projects.
I am into HAM a little bit, it would be nice if it goes up to 30-60MHz, but no plans for home brewing, except some filters/antennas maybe.

Should I go for FY6900 or is there something cheaper to play around?

[Aldo22]

Should I go for FY6900 or is there something cheaper to play around?

I have an FY3224S for about $50 and that is enough AWG for me for the time being.
You should connect the BNCs to a protective earth (PE) (pull in a 3-wire cable)
I made myself a PC interface because the normal control interface is not so great, but then...
It's a 2-channel AWG with 20/10Vpp, phase adjustment, TTL output etc. Many hobbyists will probably never need more.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy3224s-24mhz-2-channel-dds-aw-function-signal-generator/msg5175198/#msg5175198

I may get tarred and feathered by the test equipment elitists for saying this, but I don't care. 

[flaotte]

and I have to pay VAT so prices are like that:

FY3224S - 74usd
FY6900(60MHz) - 117usd
JDS6600 (60MHz) - 110usd

would be 50 vs 100 we would have a clear winner. I cannot find any decent options below 70usd, unfortunately.

But not adding 40usd for 2x range may be worth it?
going up to 30MHz is very nice for HAM related stuff, but are they good at high end?
which one from the list would work best out of the box?

[Aldo22]

and I have to pay VAT so prices are like that:

FY3224S - 74usd
FY6900(60MHz) - 117usd
JDS6600 (60MHz) - 110usd

would be 50 vs 100 we would have a clear winner. I cannot find any decent options below 70usd, unfortunately.

But not adding 40usd for 2x range may be worth it?
going up to 30MHz is very nice for HAM related stuff, but are they good at high end?
which one from the list would work best out of the box?

The taxes... 
In Switzerland, we don't pay taxes for postal import up to CHF 65.
Therefore the FY3224S is tax / duty free and the FY6900 costs about 22.- extra.
So for me it's approx. 50.- vs. approx. 120.-

The FY6900 is certainly better if you don't mind the extra charge.

[MegaVolt]

FY3224S 12 bit.
Other 14 bit.

[GigaJoe]

FY3224S - I use it for a long time , as some signal source ....  it quite annoying interface where you need to press a single button to switch parameters in a sequence to reach what you need ...  in case - set and forget it acceptable , but when you quite often going to change some output parameters it kind of frustrated ..

so ...   if you need just a signal source ,   to feed something , like trace signal path  that FY32XX acceptable ....  as well you can look at old gens with limit 1-3Mhz local used \ flea market etc. depend on your max MHZ needs...  ;  or if you do TTL for 1-3MHz ...

for a work pattern where you need often change parameters,  jump to there , and there, change this and that .....   unfortunately ,   friendly generators with key pad and dedicated buttons .... only ;   otherwise after some time you will start to kick yourself   




 

[Aldo22]

otherwise after some time you will start to kick yourself

...or you can use presets, the Windows software, or write your own Linux software.

The FY3224S is cheap and serves many purposes. Of course it leaves a lot to be desired, but in combination with other cheap devices it can become a useful hobby equipment for little money.
In my case, for example:
FY3224S: 2 channels, 20Vpp, phase, sweep etc.
Hantek DSO2000 built-in AWG: Adds much better rise times, shorter pulses and AM/FM modulation with selectable waveforms (But only 1ch and limited Vpp).
TinySA: Provides much higher bandwidth (350MHz sine, less stepped signal than 12bit) and AM/FM (stepped sine only, 1ch and very limited Vpp).

You can test and learn a lot with these. All of course only hobby/beginner quality. A "decent" signal generator still costs quite a bit of money.