Decided to Buy Brymen 869s - Help Me Avoid Buyers Remorse

[Majorassburn]

OK, I was going to buy a bench meter for high DC accuracy but all the biggies have shortcomings like frequent need for re-cal, display life, variety of testing capabilities, size, delivery time and COST, etc..

I sold my bench meter last year so now I want at least 4.5 digits with USEFUL LSD accuracy (like +/- a couple digits, NOT +/- 40 to 60, etc.)

So, I researched Fluke, Keysight and Brymen handhelds and found acceptable DC accuracy with much lower cost than bench types. 

A)  I own Fluke 87V's and 289's (Battery Eaters) and they don't fit my upgrade desires.
B)  I ruled out Keysight 1282A's because 5-6 weeks delivery is just plain silly too long.
C)  I looked at the overwhelming & confusing array of Brymens and the Brymen 869s seems to be the best fit for me based upon my on-line research and how well this blog regards them.

So, here's my dilemma:
1)  For all practical purposes, buying a Brymen in the U.S. is a one-way purchase. You better like what you get because there's no sending one back for a quick & easy exchange or refund and there's zero factory support.
2)  Am I missing something in my research like, is there another Brymen model or another brand that I should consider as a PROVEN high-accuracy handheld?
3)  When I buy a Brymen 869s, what source do you recommend based on your direct knowledge/experience of dealing with them re: Brymen meters?
4)  Anything else you might think of that would reduce my pre-purchase anxiety? 
Thanks for any help you can offer.

[tszaboo]

It's a good meter.
Everything will be OK.
You are smart strong and beautiful.

[Majorassburn]

It's a good meter.
Everything will be OK.
You are smart strong and beautiful.

Ooooh! That make me feel so good! 
Now, can you be a little more specific to my dilemma?  Thanks. 

[DaJMasta]

I've had a BM867s for like a decade now, bought it through TME and imported, only issue I've encountered is that in recent years the range switch on volts can stop just a tiny bit off of the actual stopping point, requiring a jiggle to get it to settle on the right spot and read, but only when first changing the switch.  I think I'm on my second set of batteries (though I'm not one to leave it on and it's not the only meter.)

It's a good meter.
Everything will be OK. 

[IanB]

If you are really concerned about warranty and local sales support, Greenlee sell the BM869s under their own brand name as the DM860a:

https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/dmm-500k-counts-dm-860a-dm-860a

That said, I got my BM869s from TME and everything was fine with the purchase.

An occasional sample might be faulty on delivery, but on the whole Brymen have good design quality and good manufacturing quality control. It is rare for there to be a problem with a meter.

[ejeffrey]

Given that you sold a functional bench meter last year, have fluke meters, and are dithering this much over getting the "right" meter I wouldn't let a shipping delay deter me from the meter I actually wanted.

I've never used the 869s but I have used other brymen meters and I've always been happy with their overall performance.  If you want US based service get the Greenley equivalents.

[shapirus]

C)  I looked at the overwhelming & confusing array of Brymens and the Brymen 869s seems to be the best fit for me based upon my on-line research and how well this blog regards them.

Make damn sure that you'll be satisfied with the accuracy, including the LSD uncertainty, specified in the manual, to avoid any post-purchase disappointment.

In short, and I believe it's not specific to the 869s, but is the case with pretty much any DMM, at least the handheld ones, the value you see in the LSD is not about accuracy, it's about resolution. It will allow you to track changes in the values you measure, but the accuracy spec will typically mean that the LSD, at least to a significant extent of its range, is in the uncertainty region.

The 869s is excellent for electronics (and electric as well) work and hobby, and accuracy is good for many or most practical purposes, including microamp measurements or hundreds of kHz AC volts measurements etc. But if you're into metrology and volt-nuttery, then probably not so much, and you'll be better off with an expensive multi-digit bench DMM.

There are very few things that are either questionable or poor about the 869s:

1) the 9V battery -- I personally think it's actually an advantage, as it's less prone to leakage than your typical AA or AAA, and there are rechargeable lithium batteries in this form factor that do not have a switching converter inside, with the 2 cells in series connected directly to the output. Even though it starts at below 9V (fully charged at 2*4.2V = 8.4V, which quickly drops to the plateau at 2*3.7V = 7.4V), it still provides a very, very long time of operation before you see the low battery icon;

2) slow update rate in the AC+DC measurement mode: 1 Hz or so (5 Hz, IIRC, otherwise); I'm not sure how other meters perform in this mode, maybe they're all like this;

3) range finding is not slow, but I would prefer it to be faster; again, not sure if the competitors are better, and how much so, if they are;

4) same for measuring large capacitors, but again same thing about comparing with the competitors;

5) you have to remove the back lid (and damage the warranty seal covering one of the screws, if present) to replace the fuses;

6) the fuses are good and properly selected, but because of this they are also expensive (but there are cheaper offerings of allegedly original bussmann fuses on aliexpress -- and they do look and feel the same as the originals) -- but again this equally applies to any of the comparable competitors and is dictated by technical necessity;

7) no publicly available information on readjustment procedures, which sucks, and no, this time I'm not gonna compare this with any of the competitors: this information must be free regardless of what the competitors do, there's no excuse and no technical reason for the manufacturer to be failing to disclose it -- it's a political decision;

can't light up white LEDs. The max diode threshold voltage it can output/measure is quite low by todays standards;

9) very short backlight timeout in older firmware revisions, but this only matters if you get an older used unit -- anything produced in the last, I think, 4 years or so must be fine.

That's pretty much it. Maybe there was another minor annoyance or two, but I can't remember anything right now.

p.s. dual display and dual temperature measurement support *are* cool.

p.p.s.

only issue I've encountered is that in recent years the range switch on volts can stop just a tiny bit off of the actual stopping point, requiring a jiggle to get it to settle on the right spot and read

Yes this too! The switch could have been a little more snappy to lock in position. I got used to it and don't really notice it, neither it is of any practical impact, but yes, it's there. Maybe could be fixed with some grease in the right spot and/or a stiffer spring loading whatever works for the snapping into position (a ball, I would guess), but for me it's nowhere near the level of annoyance which would warrant taking it apart and seeing how it works and if it could be improved.

p.p.p.s. Buying the 869s today won't stop you from buying yet another DMM (a bench one likely) in the future, so it's not really a dilemma. You're already hooked, admit it and go get the 869s: it's a good meter, and you'll always find a task where you need more than one meter at the same time.

[eloso]

Not too long ago I was making a decision between the BM869S and the BM789.   In my case the balance fell ever so slightly to the 789 principally because of its more practical weight/size, the Autohold, the Lo z and just a general feel from reading a lot of opinions that maybe it was somehow, in a nebulous kind of way, more modern and perhaps "better". 

There are of course important specs of the 869S that are better than the 789 - No doubt about it. Principally the higher count on DC and the PC connection facilities. 

So I guess all I am saying is that obviously both are highly thought of meters, but if the original poster doesn't mind taking a bit more time to make a very careful comparison - line by line of these two models,  the OP will make it even less likely that a slight case of buyer's remorse is in the offing. 

Regards

Eloso

p.s. after a few months now with the 789 I can say I am very happy with it. A perfect fit for my own needs.

[Majorassburn]

If you are really concerned about warranty and local sales support, Greenlee sell the BM869s under their own brand name as the DM860a:

https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/dmm-500k-counts-dm-860a-dm-860a

That said, I got my BM869s from TME and everything was fine with the purchase.

An occasional sample might be faulty on delivery, but on the whole Brymen have good design quality and good manufacturing quality control. It is rare for there to be a problem with a meter.

Thanks very much to all for their input and a super thanks to you for letting me know about the Greenlee.  I'm just calculating the AC & DC accuracy specs and uncertainties because they are called out differently by Brymen and Greenlee.

Also, considering the TME source. Thanks. I'll post back here my ultimate move...

[mwb1100]

I have purchased a few Brymen meters (though not a BM869s) from welectron.com.  Overall I think my Brymen meters are great.  The only problems I have with any of them (and neither applies to the BM869s AFAIK) is that some have a weak diode mode - won't light up some LEDs - and some have a short backlight timeout.

welectron is a great vendor:

  - the few questions I've asked have been answered quickly and completely
  - they have very reasonable shipping rates to the US - and for certain items such as most (all?) multimeters and oscilloscopes the shipping to the US is 10 EUR!  They ship via DHL, which I thought would be a detriment but every time I've gotten a shipment from welectron it arrived in less than a week with no fuss.
  - no VAT or sales tax is charged when shipping to the US
  - there's a 5% discount available to eevblog readers - just ask in a message to welectron (the discount is valid on nearly everything I've shopped for but not 100% of them)

Regarding the BM869s, the only complaint I can recall pretty much anyone having about it is that it is too big/heavy for them.  Note: the BM869s should light up blue and white LEDs, but since the diode range is limited to 2V it will only show "OL" on the screen for the voltage drop.

It looks like you'd pay about $150 more for the Greenlee DM-860A in order to get a US-supported (with lifetime warranty) version of the BM869s.

[shapirus]

The only problems I have with any of them (and neither applies to the BM869s AFAIK) is that some have a weak diode mode - won't light up som LEDs)

To put some numbers, my BM869s outputs up to 2.94 V in diode mode into a 10 MOhm (another DMM) load. Not enough for some (typically white) LEDs.

[Bud]

Be an adult, make your choice, and do not sweat over it.

[Majorassburn]

Be an adult, make your choice, and do not sweat over it.

Right-O. I'm buying the 869s instead of the Greenlee version because of the price difference and because the two lowest price sellers of the Greenlee are a telephone operation hiding behind a website based on a side street in Las Vegas!
I'll probably go with TME and/or Welectron. P.S. The bulkiness won't matter - its gonna live on a prototype design bench until our new Keithley DMM6500 gets delivered.

Thanks for all the great suggestions. I appreciate all of your comments. I'll let you know how much I love my new Brymen after I get it. 

[J-R]

The Keysight 1282A is easy to get from any number of top tier online sellers like Mouser.  For the money, I would suggest one from eBay then ship it out for calibration + data.

Greenlee is equally easy to find from any number of online sellers: https://www.greenlee.com/us/en/dmm-500k-counts-dm-860a-dm-860a
Probably just go here: https://www.tequipment.net/Greenlee/DM-860A/Multimeters/

But I agree, the Greenlee price is a bit steep.  It's better for someone who needs local support.

[HKJ]

Brymen meters are good meters, if BM869 work for you is up to you, read the specifications. It is not a cheap Chinese meter.

I do like Brymen meters, but they are not Fluke. What do I mean by that?
Most Fluke meters have a very good and simple user interface (289 excluded), they are very precise, they have very good specifications and are tested to handle anything you can throw at them. Brymen do not have as good user interface, mostly because they support more functionality, they have even better specifications that Fluke, but they lack the history of reliability that Fluke have.
I like and adore Fluke and wish more brand would make meters that match Fluke, but Brymen wins easily as a advanced meter as long as your do not demand a simple user interface (Again excluding 289).
If I had to equipment a couple of people with meters would I select Fluke or Brymen? If a standard Fluke meter could do it (Not 289), I would select Fluke, because it is much easier to teach people to use a Fluke meter, than a Brymen meter, even though the Brymen is technically best. $100 (or a bit more) is not really significant in that calculation, what is required is a simple meter that can do the job (Fluke excels in that) .

[shapirus]

Brymen meters are good meters, if BM869 work for you is up to you, read the specifications. It is not a cheap Chinese meter.

I do like Brymen meters, but they are not Fluke. What do I mean by that?
Most Fluke meters have a very good and simple user interface (289 excluded), they are very precise, they have very good specifications and are tested to handle anything you can throw at them. Brymen do not have as good user interface, mostly because they support more functionality, they have even better specifications that Fluke, but they lack the history of reliability that Fluke have.
I like and adore Fluke and wish more brand would make meters that match Fluke, but Brymen wins easily as a advanced meter as long as your do not demand a simple user interface (Again excluding 289).
If I had to equipment a couple of people with meters would I select Fluke or Brymen? If a standard Fluke meter could do it (Not 289), I would select Fluke, because it is much easier to teach people to use a Fluke meter, than a Brymen meter, even though the Brymen is technically best. $100 (or a bit more) is not really significant in that calculation, what is required is a simple meter that can do the job (Fluke excels in that) .

You seem to be comparing simpler Flukes to more elaborate Brymens to draw the UI compexity conclusions. That's not a valid comparison, apples should be compared to apples. An adequate, more or less, Fluke model to compare to Brymen BM869s would be the 289.
For a "simple meter that can do the job", look at BM2800 series, for example, or the BM230 series.

Fluke excels in providing stable long-term quality to corporate customers, for whom paying extra for each DMM is cheaper than having to deal with any issues and lose man hours which can potentially happen if they start replacing their Flukes with something else. The value of Fluke is not so much in the DMM itself (which are of course good nevertheless), but in its consistent meeting of the expectations and being a part of long established workflows.

[IanB]

Also, as a business purchase, I would say the BM869s is not an expensive tool. Rather than paying for a warranty, buy three 869's and compare them from time to time to make sure their readings align. If one happens to go wrong, recycle it and buy a replacement.

[HKJ]

You seem to be comparing simpler Flukes to more elaborate Brymens to draw the UI compexity conclusions. That's not a valid comparison, apples should be compared to apples. An adequate, more or less, Fluke model to compare to Brymen BM869s would be the 289.
For a "simple meter that can do the job", look at BM2800 series, for example, or the BM230 series.

You are in a way correct in this, but only partially. Nearly all Fluke meters are very easy to use and clearly marked, the exception is 289. With Brymen just about any meter looks complex when looking at it. That is not true, but you may need a bit of time to realize it.

To clarify: A Fluke meter only has a secondary function on a few of the switch position, a Brymen has secondary and tertiary (even quaternary) functions on a lot of the selections. It makes Brymen look complicated. In reality the Fluke has the function, but it is not directly marked i.e. the difference is often cosmetic (Or the Fluke do not have the function at all).

Fluke excels in providing stable long-term quality to corporate customers, for whom paying extra for each DMM is cheaper than having to deal with any issues and lose man hours which can potentially happen if they start replacing their Flukes with something else. The value of Fluke is not so much in the DMM itself (which are of course good nevertheless), but in its consistent meeting of the expectations and being a part of long established workflows.

I agree with that, Fluke is probably the best brand to provide long term (10+ years) stability. You have to pay for it, in many cases it is small change compared to other expenses.

If somebody believe I do not like the 289 they are wrong, it is one of my best meters (189 is often better), but it has some faults that makes a lot of other meters look favorable. Other top end meters are CA5293 and Gossen Energy, but they do also have some serious issues.

[shapirus]

To clarify: A Fluke meter only has a secondary function on a few of the switch position, a Brymen has secondary and tertiary (even quaternary) functions on a lot of the selections. It makes Brymen look complicated.

Ah, this is what you meant. Yes, totally agree. Having multiple functions crammed into a single position when there's still a lot of room remaining out of the full 360 degrees circle is a UI design failure, that's for sure (OTOH there has to be a limit to how far the switch can be rotated so as not to exceed what a wrist can do in a single movement). Maybe there's a technical reason behind this, the way the contacts are made, or something, I don't know. But while that is true, it's still not an issue in practice. Well, almost: for example, it's counterintuitive to rotate the switch into the mV DC position when you want to measure frequency of a high(ish) voltage signal, as the frequency counter is a secondary function in that position. And there's another Hz function in the AC volts position, too, with the former marked with the square wave symbol. Can anyone tell what's what exactly without a manual?
This can probably can be an issue in some circumstances (such as equipping a number of workers who aren't expected nor supposed to do any thinking outside of a very narrow scope required to do a particilar job).

[mwb1100]

I'd say the BM869s is closest to the discontinued Fluke 187 in both functionality and UI.  The UI is very similar, with the Fluke perhaps being a small bit simpler by having a dedicated button for selecting frequency and duty (which require additional presses of the general purpose select button on the BM869s).

One thing the 187 (and many Flukes) has is auto hold, which is sadly absent from the BM869s.  I believe that the BM78x meters are the only Brymens that have an auto hold feature.

[shapirus]

One thing the 187 (and many Flukes) has is auto hold, which is sadly absent from the BM869s.  I believe that the BM78x meters are the only Brymens that have an auto hold feature.

Yeah, another one I forgot to mention. All in all, the platform is showing its age. As good as the 869s still is, it could sure use a facelifting update.

[IanB]

Yeah, another one I forgot to mention. All in all, the platform is showing its age. As good as the 869s still is, it could sure use a facelifting update.

I agree. Autohold, higher diode check voltage, and diode check beep would definitely be useful additions.

Having multiple functions crammed into a single position when there's still a lot of room remaining out of the full 360 degrees circle is a UI design failure, that's for sure (OTOH there has to be a limit to how far the switch can be rotated so as not to exceed what a wrist can do in a single movement). Maybe there's a technical reason behind this, the way the contacts are made, or something, I don't know.

I don't worry too much about the multiple mode selections on buttons as you can cycle through these while the probes are connected, while turning the selection switch in the middle of a measurement is not recommended.

[joeqsmith]

4)  Anything else you might think of that would reduce my pre-purchase anxiety? 

Buying a toaster must really put you on edge.   

The BM869s is no bench meter.  I would never consider trading in my old HP34401A for the BM869s.   They serve two different purposes.  Get the right tool for the job.  Read the manuals before purchase. 

If you really want something high resolution, that Gossen Ultra is the closest thing I have seen.  Of course, it comes with it's own problems.  Good luck in your search.

[Lightages]

I have the calibration procedures for many if not most of the Brymen meters. If anyone want them please PM me.

[Lightages]

It seems I don't have the procedures for most models, or I can't find them. I can provide for the 250 series, AM-140/160, 520 and 820 series, 860 series.