Author Topic: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown  (Read 57541 times)

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Offline PedroDaGr8

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Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« on: July 20, 2014, 05:09:30 am »
For the life of me, I couldn't find the old DE-5000 thread. Search kept bringing up all the other threads mentioning the DE-5000, so I am creating this one. Mods feel free to merge it into the other one if you know where it is. I originally wrote it to post at DIYAudio but I'll post it over here too. It's basically a big slow teardown in my usual picture heavy style.

I picked up the meter, TL-21 (short aligator leads), TL-22 (SMD Tweezers) and TL-23 (Guard lead) for $82 shipped on sale. Thanks Staze!  :box: Usual price is around $120 with all three options. The only option I did not get is the USB cable, as I have no need for it. To be honest I don't need TL-23 either but this price was significantly cheaper than the meters that had only TL-21 and TL-22. Packaging could have been better as they all came in a padded envelope.



This device is true full-featured LCR. It has measurement frequencies of DC/100Hz/120Hz/1kHz/10kHz/100kHz. The highest frequency used to be the domain of only bench meters; hobby meters often only went to 1kHz or 10kHz if you were willing to pay for it. It wasn't until recently that a hobbyist could afford a 100kHz LCR. On top of this, the meter can measure theta - phase angle, D (aka tan d) - dissipation factor, ESR, Q, series and parallel inductance, series and parallel capacitance, series and parallel resistance. It also has the ability to sort into bins:±0.25%, ±0.5%, ± 1%, ±2%, ±5%, ±10%, ±20%, and -20%+80%. Agilent has a similar handheld meter,the U1733C which costs ~$400. Basically all of these features are present on the Agilent and the Der EE, though the Agilent has one extra resistance range and has a few tenths of a percentage better accuracy on some ranges (for 4-5x the price). Here is a link to the english manual. It includes the detailed specs for this instrument as well.

Now as Dave Jones as EEVBlog says: "Don't turn it on! Tear it down!" and that's exactly what I am going to do. First, its time to tear down the optional parts.



First the TL-21 short alligator leads:



Here we see the leads, interestingly we see both jacks and gold plated tabs that fit into the slots on the front of the meter. On the surface, they don't appear all that special. Just some alligator clips and a plastic box.


Opening up the box by removing the two screws tells a very different story though. We can clearly see a Kelvin-style four-wire connection PLUS guard lines (the copper wires) for even more accurate reads at high impedance or low values. This is actually very impressive and was something I was NOT expecting.


Flipping the board over we can see that the signals go entirely through the tabs. The jacks on the adapter are not connected and as such are solely used for mechanical stability. The jacks on the meter on the other hand ARE connected (more on that later) they just aren't used with the adapter.


This banana jack for the external guard isn't just a hollow tube soldered to the board; it's milled to shape from a metal rod (or cast piece). This is a sign of quality and not cutting every corner possible.


The same box is used for these alligator leads and for the SMD tweezers. It would have been nice to see a grommet here on that hole. Even though its completely unnecessary it would just look better.

A few quick pictures of the TL-23 guard lead. The only thing to note is that the banana plug is milled from a solid piece of metal. Once again, a nice sign. In the second image, I try to show how each quarter is actually solid metal, not hollow.




Now for the last option, the SMD tweezers!





The lead on the tweezers feels like silicone or some other very soft rubber. The lengths is quite good for in-circuit testing.


The short alligator leads were surprisingly well designed and the tweezers follow in that path. Inside the box is 100% identical to the aligator leads, meanwhile at the tweezer end we see our familiar four wire + guard lines.


The four wires end just before the tips. This is not QUITE as ideal as ending at the tips but for this meter should be suitable enough. We aren't measuring sub-milliohm resistences here. Where is the guard though?


On the back of the board, of course, shielding those long traces from noise and stray signals. In fact, it's basically the entire backside of these boards. I tried to show the raised copper pour which is ALL guard plane. This is attention to detail that you wouldn't expect out of such a budget meter. It is starting to become VERY obvious that this meter is not built like a budget meter. Maybe that is why IET Labs chose to OEM this meter from Der EE (and charge 4-5x the price).

OK, enough teasing you. Time for the main event!

Well it's a box, with a bunch of Japanese on it (Der EE is a Taiwanese company). The manual inside is all in Japanese as well. Luckily there is an English manual available on line. See the top of this thread.


One is the loneliest number that you'll ever see.....This is how you know it didn't ship from China (besides the fact I have the invoice and tracking directly from Japan). China Post has a ban on ALL batteries. Plus it is made in Taiwan.:D


And here it is in all its glory! The meter is a pretty decent size, I'd put it close to the size of a Fluke 87V. The plastic feels normal and solid: not great like the Uni-T UT61E but not cheap like most other meters either.


One thing I want to note before flipping the meter over to open it up. The banana jacks are split jacks. Allowing you to use certain kelvin adapters to extend the kelvin connections outside the case. If you use normal bananas you at least get kelvin connection to the banana plug.


Flipping it over, we see a whole bunch of screws and a tilting bail. The top two and bottom two screws hold the case together, while the inner four screws hold the battery door on. Nice and secure. Oddly enough, the tilting bail has holes for mounting it onto a wall. We can also see one area they cut a corner. The place where the USB jack attaches appears to be filled with a foam rubber square. I would have liked to have seen some sort of hard plastic cover here. Once again it works and likely works well (this isn't a ruggedized DMM, it is a specialty instrument) but it would be nice to see some thing a bit better. Yeah it is a bit nit-picky, just like the grommet, but I have few things to criticize so I am left with nit-picky stuff.


Removing the four screws and lifting the battery door shows the battery space underneath. We are once again met with a pleasant surprise. Threaded brass inserts! For something that will be accessed on a somewhat regular basis; this is a really nice thing to see. The battery is a very snug fit, in a good way.







Removing the four outer screws, we can open the case. No brass inserts this time but its not surprising. You would not be opening the case often at all, especially compared to a multimeter. Instead, you get captive screws (once you unscrew them, they just spin instead of coming all the way out) so that you can't lose them. Very nice! We also get our first look at the board. The upper IC is labeled DM5000-1C, it's actually a Cyrustek ES51919. The lower chip is labeled DM5000-2C, it is actually the sister chip to the ES51919, the ES51920. datasheet here

Removing eight screws (ignoring the four that hold on the LCD) you can remove the entire PCB. Not much to see on the other side. Just another view of the split jacks.

One thing you may note is the lack of any sort of input protection. This is actually intentional. This is NOT a multimeter and as such should not be subjected to ANY voltages (including charged capacitors). Input protection adds capacitance and inductance to the inputs, much of it which can't be zero'd out. So to create a high-accuracy meter the input protection has to be dropped.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2015, 09:31:09 pm by PedroDaGr8 »
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Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2014, 06:01:03 am »
OK, lets get some images of it functioning!


Did I mention it has a blue backlight?:D


How well does it work? Very well! Here it is measuring a 2-milliohm 1% resistor. Frankly, I expected it to read basically zero. In fact, if it read zero it would STILL be in spec! The fact that it is only one count off is pretty impressive. I tested on a few other resistors and they fell WAY within spec. I didn't take pics mainly because I was lazy. :D Anyways, on to some more testing!








Here I am testing a 35V 560uF Panasonic/Matsushita FM capacitor. It reads 527.3uF (-5.83% which is acceptable for a +/- 20% capacitor). I measured it at 120Hz as per the data sheet. D (called tan ? in the datasheet) is 0.038. According to the datasheet a healthy capacitor is less than 0.12 for the 35V version. ESR is 0.1ohms. The datasheet does not give a figure for ESR. As these capacitors are considered low inductance, it does give a figure ofr that. Inductance is measured at 100kHz (not possible on other cheaper meters) and according to the datasheet should be less than 0.018ohms. Sure enough, it reads 0.01ohms. As an aside, notice though how much the capacitance has dropped at 100kHz, this is typical for an electrolytic capacitor.





Lastly, I want to address why D (tan ?) is a better indicator of capacitor health than ESR. In the above images I show an AUDIO grade capacitor (let's not get into that  |O) the Nichicon FW (0.1uF, 100V). If you were looking only at the ESR, you would be thinking OMG this cap is dead!:eek: This is CLEARLY not a low-ESR capacitor. According to the datasheet a healthy capacitor should have a D of less than 0.08, this cap has 0.013. It is clearly healthy in spite of its ESR.

Hopefully you enjoyed my post! Cheers. Drinking a wootStout 2.0 as I write this and am comfortably buzzed as we speak.

The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 
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Offline PedroDaGr8

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The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline omgfire

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2014, 07:26:28 am »
Well it's a box, with a bunch of Chinese on it (Der EE is a Taiwanese company). The manual inside is all in Chinese as well.

I suspect it is the Japanese language.  :)
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 07:35:59 am by omgfire »
 

Offline torr032

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2014, 07:29:56 pm »
So can it measure ESR in circuit or not? I am baffled I see someone says it can, someone it can't.
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2014, 07:33:58 pm »
So can it measure ESR in circuit or not? I am baffled I see someone says it can, someone it can't.

The reason that you see that mix is because it's borderline. From what i understand test voltage is 600mV. For some sensitive devices it might be enough to activate them. For most others it won't.
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline ManateeMafia

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2014, 07:43:03 pm »
The links you supplied need correcting. It looks like some quotes were added around the link.

Did your meter come with a cal certificate or a copy of any performance test?

I am trying to track down the manufacturer's calibration procedure / performance test. I did not receive anything with my IET branded meter.

 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #8 on: July 20, 2014, 08:05:51 pm »
The links you supplied need correcting. It looks like some quotes were added around the link.

Did your meter come with a cal certificate or a copy of any performance test?

I am trying to track down the manufacturer's calibration procedure / performance test. I did not receive anything with my IET branded meter.

Thanks, fixed the links. Not sure what happened there.

I did not recieve any sort of calibration documents. I thought that was the whole point of the IET labs, the value they added. They would supply cal documents with the device. If they don't even do that, its pretty ridiculous.

By the way, IET labs just announced a DE-6000. Don't get excited it is almost completely marketing bullshit.  The only specs that have changed at all are Resistance at 1kHz ( 200, 2k and 20k ohms ranges are now 0.2%+2 instead of 0.3%+2), Capacitance at 1kHz ( 20, 200 and 2000nF ranges are now 0.2%+2 instead of 0.3%+2). It also lists DCR as improved but if you compare the specs in the Der EE DE-5000 datasheet to the DE-6000 specs, there is NO difference.

I have a feeling IET Labs was tired of getting its lunch eaten. They realized that since they calibrate their meters they could tighten the specs from 0.3% to 0.2%. Give it a new part number (higher of course so people think its dramatically better) and hope that people think that its some dramatic improvement and buy theirs instead of the DER EE one.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 08:07:46 pm by PedroDaGr8 »
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline ManateeMafia

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #9 on: July 20, 2014, 08:18:35 pm »
I will have to dig around. If I got anything, it would have been a basic cert without data.

Don't be surprised if a DER EE DE-6000 pops up on eBay. IET probably had the manufacturer make improvements like adding input protection.
I wonder if it is based on the same chipset or something newer? Either way the manufacturer probably sold 10x or more units on eBay than through IET.


 

Offline ManateeMafia

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #10 on: July 20, 2014, 08:36:56 pm »
After looking at the specifications, the biggest change is the color and model number. Even the DCR Accuracy is still the same even though it is listed as improved.

Probably a minor revision to the board and nothing more.
 

Offline joshhunsaker

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #11 on: July 20, 2014, 08:37:42 pm »
Be careful of those, I had one and returned it because there is no reverse polarity protection on the battery terminal.  You accidentally drop a 9v facing the wrong way into that compartment and your meter will immediately be toast (without even hitting a power button and yes, I found this out from experience).  In fact, a single second of reverse polarity contact almost caused the battery to explode (heated up to around 120F almost instantly).  That's bad design in my book.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2014, 08:41:09 pm by joshhunsaker »
 

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #12 on: July 20, 2014, 08:56:24 pm »
Be careful of those, I had one and returned it because there is no reverse polarity protection on the battery terminal.  You accidentally drop a 9v facing the wrong way into that compartment and your meter will immediately be toast (without even hitting a power button and yes, I found this out from experience).  In fact, a single second of reverse polarity contact almost caused the battery to explode (heated up to around 120F).  That's bad design in my book.

Do you know which board revision yours had? Mine has a reverse biased diode directly across the battery inputs, which I have seen many times before  a common way to prevent damage if you reverse install a battery. A better way would have been some sort of bridge rectifier but a reverse biased diode is common enough to be acceptable.



Maybe someone else can chime in with more knowledge if that is not true.





The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline joshhunsaker

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #13 on: July 20, 2014, 09:16:01 pm »
Do you know which board revision yours had?

The product I purchased was from ebay from a seller in Japan and was probably around 4 months ago.  I'm not sure of the specific board revision.  It's very possible that it got updated right after that.  I did let the seller know about the problem.  It may even have been a fluke with a bad part (possibly).
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2014, 10:53:38 pm »
I did not recieve any sort of calibration documents. I thought that was the whole point of the IET labs, the value they added. They would supply cal documents with the device. If they don't even do that, its pretty ridiculous.

Cal cert was always an additional cost option on the DE-5000. It was never included in the $330.00 price.

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2014, 10:38:45 pm »
Hate to tell you this, but you are in error here...

.....
OK, enough teasing you. Time for the main event!

Well it's a box, with a bunch of Chinese on it (Der EE is a Taiwanese company). The manual inside is all in Chinese as well. Luckily there is an English manual available on line. See the top of this thread.
.....

Ahem, sorry for the side track, but for future reference...  It is not Chinese writing on the box.  The characters you see on the box is Japanese - Katakana.  There are a few Chinese characters dotted here a there as with typical Japanese Katakana writing.

Classical Japanese writing would be hard to tell from the Chinese.  Classical Japanese call Kanji is Chinese based and as far as I know all Chinese, but Katakana is much simplified with just a few Chinese characters.  Even today, few Japanese literature scholar consider themselves complete unless they can read/write Kanji.    Kanji literally means Han Writing.  Han is what Chinese often call themselves - along with Tong.  Han and Tong are two of the longest lasting dynasties thus Chinese use Han-People or Tong-People to refer to themselves.  The Chinese name of China town in the USA is called "Tong Yin Guy" - Tong people's street.

Taiwan was at one time (WW II era) a colony of Japan (and was a Dutch colony at one time hence the name Formosa for Taiwan).  Much Japanese culture and writing remains with the Taiwan culture.  However, you wont see Chinese writing with Japanese characters.

But it is wrong to say you are in error, you can consider yourself correct.  Legend had it that the First Emperor of China Qin-Shi-Huang send 500 couples to populate the land now called Japan, and then another 500 couple to populate the land now called Korea.  While the Japanese clothing and style (such as how they sit) matched exactly with Qin dynastic clothing and habit, this "populate the land" business (I believe) remained merely legend.  If that legend is right, Japanese = Chinese, so you are correct.

Rick
 
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Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2014, 11:23:26 pm »
Yeah my bad, I'll blame it on the 'wootSTOUT 2.0'. I actually initially thought it was japanese but then convinced myself that it wasn't.  |O Fixed it
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline Rick Law

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #17 on: July 22, 2014, 02:46:57 am »
Yeah my bad, I'll blame it on the 'wootSTOUT 2.0'. I actually initially thought it was japanese but then convinced myself that it wasn't.  |O Fixed it

Easy mistake to make...  You should see some of the big wooooppsss I've made - some even right here on this forum.
 

Offline robrenz

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #18 on: July 22, 2014, 03:07:49 am »
Very nice unboxing and teardown PedroDaGr8  :clap: :clap: :-+  I have had the IET version way before Daves review. I am pretty sure I am responsible for IET sending him one for review. The extra digit of resistance resolution you mention on the Agilent is worthless when you add the +/- counts. Not to mention its not 4 wire kelvin connections.

Offline PedroDaGr8

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #19 on: July 22, 2014, 03:12:51 am »
By the way, for our American members, deth502 just mentioned that the sale is back on.

$85 shipped for the meter and TL 21, 22 and 23.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/261527961316

Very nice unboxing and teardown PedroDaGr8  :clap: :clap: :-+  I have had the IET version way before Daves review. I am pretty sure I am responsible for IET sending him one for review. The extra digit of resistance resolution you mention on the Agilent is worthless when you add the +/- counts. Not to mention its not 4 wire kelvin connections.

Thanks man! Wow did not know that, I expected better out of Agilent!  :--
The very existence of flamethrowers proves that some time, somewhere, someone said to themselves, "You know, I want to set those people over there on fire, but I'm just not close enough to get the job done." -George Carlin
 

Offline staze

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #20 on: July 22, 2014, 05:52:56 pm »
Be careful of those, I had one and returned it because there is no reverse polarity protection on the battery terminal.  You accidentally drop a 9v facing the wrong way into that compartment and your meter will immediately be toast (without even hitting a power button and yes, I found this out from experience).  In fact, a single second of reverse polarity contact almost caused the battery to explode (heated up to around 120F).  That's bad design in my book.

Do you know which board revision yours had? Mine has a reverse biased diode directly across the battery inputs, which I have seen many times before  a common way to prevent damage if you reverse install a battery. A better way would have been some sort of bridge rectifier but a reverse biased diode is common enough to be acceptable.



Maybe someone else can chime in with more knowledge if that is not true.

There's someone else that also saw this, and of course, that diode blows from over current. So they're basically using it as a fuse.
“Give a man an answer, he’ll keep his job for a day. Teach a man to Google, and he’ll be employed for a lifetime”
 

Offline torr032

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #21 on: July 23, 2014, 10:52:53 am »
So can it measure ESR in circuit or not? I am baffled I see someone says it can, someone it can't.

The reason that you see that mix is because it's borderline. From what i understand test voltage is 600mV. For some sensitive devices it might be enough to activate them. For most others it won't.

What do you guys think can it be hacked to lower the testing voltage? I have only bought it for caps ESR and D mainly in circuit testing.
 

Offline kripton2035

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #22 on: July 23, 2014, 11:01:53 am »
I did in circuit testing of caps esr (in fact D is better) and so far it worked very well.
dont forget that once the device is connected the 600mV will get lower
but I understand it can be borderline with some boards.
The more important thing is that it is not protected against charged capacitors, and so you'd better make/buy a dedicaced esr meter
with capacitor discharge IMHO.

Offline omgfire

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Offline wiss

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Re: Der EE DE-5000 Unboxing and Teardown
« Reply #24 on: July 23, 2014, 07:15:55 pm »
Pedro, I will hold you responsible, for me buying one of these of ebay today! ;) 88 + 8 USD from Japan to eurozone...
 


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