EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: Shannon on February 20, 2021, 04:39:53 pm
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Shannon Tweezers Calibration Process
2021/12/30
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This video is to demonstrate the calibration process of Shannon Tweezers, which is easy to conduct through three steps.
you can observe how accurate and precise through this video.
Hope you like it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqg24W9agGk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqg24W9agGk)
Menu and ABS case Image Update
2021/10/05
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The unboxing Shannon Tweezers video is coming.
Forgive my poor English and video cut tech :palm:
Hope you like it.
This video content includes
1. the Container for the Tweezers
2. The ABS Case and Tips teardown
3. Accuracy Presentation
4. Hold Function and shortcut
5. Oscilloscope and Shannon Tweezers test each other
If you have any questions, please feel free to let me know.
Thanks for your suggestions and supports, we will be there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMyViml9v5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMyViml9v5A)
2021/10/04
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About a year ago, a friend discussed an AC impedance measurement scheme with me, we think this scheme can meet most of the testing requirements. Then we started to cooperate to discuss the possibility of a more practical LCR tweezers.
Because of the impact of the epidemic, the progress of many works is surprisingly slow. After many experiments, we have realized its basic functions and prototype.
I share our experience here and welcome your comments. We will continue to optimize the design, If more electronic enthusiasts are interested, we will try to cooperate with more friends to make it into a product.
Compared with other LCR tweezers, this one uses a new high integrated scheme, which has higher accuracy and more stable test results. At present, it supports 100 / 120 / 1k / 10kHz, 0.5 and 1V excitation signal and impedance measurement, such as ESR,D,Q... The structure design of these LCR tweezers is much more stable, and the user experience is more like precision tweezers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61nLU3FGTk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61nLU3FGTk)
Cap Measurement Noise performance video
The screen measurement data update rate is 2 samples per second, which is much faster than the other high precision SMD testers, and there are about 100 samples record for 5pF cap measurement, 6fF peak to peak noise performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyM7_HZJ4K0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyM7_HZJ4K0)
Features as the attached image, continuous updating
(https://i.ibb.co/MRvVRhm/LCR-Tweezers-Features.png) (https://ibb.co/YtCktWx)
These are the test results for precision resistors and caps at this moment:
The DUTs were Vishay S102 serial 1K 0.01%, 20K 0.01%, 100k 0.1%
(https://i.ibb.co/YLMv9Fb/1k.jpg) (https://ibb.co/MC4qTx9)
(https://i.ibb.co/4FjdZbn/20k.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BfgNVh5)
(https://i.ibb.co/TLc8C4v/100k.jpg) (https://ibb.co/BNLZ1yz)
The DUT is 5pf + 0.5pf @ 10kHz and 10nf 1% @ 1kHz MKP capacitors
(https://i.ibb.co/n0QJdT2/5pF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7tKqG1)
(https://i.ibb.co/DGbHDLp/10nF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/N13d67S)
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Will it have an Auto mode ?
When measuring electrolytics ESR should be displayed.
What battery technology are you planning on using ?
Can you fit a tiny battery level bar meter on the display or will you just pop up a battery low warning ?
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When and at what price do you plan to sell?
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Will it have an Auto mode ?
When measuring electrolytics ESR should be displayed.
What battery technology are you planning on using ?
Can you fit a tiny battery level bar meter on the display or will you just pop up a battery low warning ?
Sure, it will have auto mode, which could distinguish the DUT type and recommend the appropriate frequency automatically
ESR would be implemented with Cap measuring, and Inductor measurement would have the similar Rs function.
We are trying to make it a real LCR meter, support those measurement modes
We use a rechargeable Li-on Battery, the battery level would be displayed on the screen.
Actually, we are focusing on the display now, I don't think it will be long
Type-C Port has been used for battery charging as attached.
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ESR would be implemented with Cap measuring,
Not in Auto mode ?
My old ST3 tweezers can do ESR in Auto mode.
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When and at what price do you plan to sell?
At present, we think the price will be around $100 for mass production
We will try to launch it on Kickstarter in one month. If crowdfunding is successful, the delivery time is expected to be two months
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ESR would be implemented with Cap measuring,
Not in Auto mode ?
My old ST3 tweezers can do ESR in Auto mode.
Thanks tautech, we will do that.
The logic would be Auto mode will switch to Cap or Inductor measuring mode, and the ESR value would be displayed at the same time when cap value is displayed :D
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How does it perform with MLCC?
Because the voltage coefficient of capacitance is quite bad with MLCC, the original Smart Tweezers did not read them correctly and needed firmware update.
Example 10uF 10V 0603 at 3V is -40% for only 6uF. If you use a single ramp (compared to AC) to measure capacitance, then the value will be incorrect.
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How does it perform with MLCC?
Because the voltage coefficient of capacitance is quite bad with MLCC, the original Smart Tweezers did not read them correctly and needed firmware update.
Example 10uF 10V 0603 at 3V is -40% for only 6uF. If you use a single ramp (compared to AC) to measure capacitance, then the value will be incorrect.
I can't agree with you anymore, the excitation signal is a key factor for the performance :D
We used a pure AC signal for R/L/C components.
10pF cap excitation waveform attached.
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How does it perform with MLCC?
Because the voltage coefficient of capacitance is quite bad with MLCC, the original Smart Tweezers did not read them correctly and needed firmware update.
Example 10uF 10V 0603 at 3V is -40% for only 6uF. If you use a single ramp (compared to AC) to measure capacitance, then the value will be incorrect.
My 2007 ST3 reads a 10uF 0805 at 8.54uF ESR~100 mOhm at 10 KHz
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Del
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Del
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Sure, it will have auto mode, which could distinguish the DUT type and recommend the appropriate frequency automatically
ESR would be implemented with Cap measuring, and Inductor measurement would have the similar Rs function.
We are trying to make it a real LCR meter, support those measurement modes
Real LCR meter should be able to determine, in addition to ESR, also very important secondary parameters such as quality factor "Q" and dielectric loss tangent "D".
Without it, any tweezers turn into a regular beautiful toy like DT71.
Thanks indman
The ESR, Q and D measurement function have been implemented, UI is under modifying, we will make the main parameter and secondary parameter display at the same time :D
10nF SMD Cap ESR measurement attached.
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The DUT is 5pf + 0.5pf @ 10kHz and 10nf 1% @ 1kHz MKP capacitors
(https://i.ibb.co/n0QJdT2/5pF.jpg) (https://ibb.co/g7tKqG1)
Can you show a video where this capacitor is measured at least 3 times in a row?
Are you sure this tweezers needs this resolution of 0.0001pF?
Hi there, you are right, the noise would exceed 0.0001pF, and so many digits for pF level cap is unnecessary, but sometimes the noise could less than 0.01% as the video attached. :D
and the other way to get lower noise is by increasing the sampling time for averaging.
the basic accuracy we achieved is 0.1% now, so the last digit would be not displayed in the end.
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Del
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When and at what price do you plan to sell?
At present, we think the price will be around $100 for mass production
We will try to launch it on Kickstarter in one month. If crowdfunding is successful, the delivery time is expected to be two months
This is too expensive to replace the wires of a stationary LCR meter. :)
You've seen that the pretty model DT71 is 2 times cheaper. I'm not talking about the price of simple tweezers UNI-T, Mastech and Holdpeak.
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When and at what price do you plan to sell?
At present, we think the price will be around $100 for mass production
We will try to launch it on Kickstarter in one month. If crowdfunding is successful, the delivery time is expected to be two months
This is too expensive to replace the wires of a stationary LCR meter. :)
You've seen that the pretty model DT71 is 2 times cheaper. I'm not talking about the price of simple tweezers UNI-T, Mastech and Holdpeak.
I guess, you've seen that the pretty model ST5S/LCR Pro1 is 2 or 3 times expensive. :)
Well, I don't want to talk much about those product's shortcomings, they are more like DMM, here is a test and analysis post, you can get more details.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/)
Have you ever seen an LCR Tweezers that could achieve 0.01% noise performance at that speed?
And look at the test image, we used 0.01% 2ppm precision resistors for the DUT.
We will post more details about the performance and structure design, it used as real precision tweezers, very easy to hold 0402 SMD components.
It is much more convenient to use than a stationary LCR meter, it could support SMD(independent or soldered on PCB) and through-hole components at the same time.
We have great confidence in it, you'll want to have a try ;)
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and the other way to get lower noise is by increasing the sampling time for averaging.
the basic accuracy we achieved is 0.1% now, so the last digit would be not displayed in the end.
I watched the video, thanks! Once again I was convinced that the resolution of 0.01pF is quite enough for a meter with a 2-wire connection. All other extra digits are noise or random number generator.
How does it perform with MLCC?
Because the voltage coefficient of capacitance is quite bad with MLCC, the original Smart Tweezers did not read them correctly and needed firmware update.
Example 10uF 10V 0603 at 3V is -40% for only 6uF. If you use a single ramp (compared to AC) to measure capacitance, then the value will be incorrect.
I can't agree with you anymore, the excitation signal is a key factor for the performance :D
We used a pure AC signal for R/L/C components.
I believe that floobydust is right in this question, so many serious tweezers allow you to select the voltage on the measurement pins from 0.1VRMS-1VRMS
yep, we will support the different excitation voltage as well ;)
For the large capacitance measurement, it's a long story, I will try to unfold it at another time.
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How does it perform with MLCC?
Because the voltage coefficient of capacitance is quite bad with MLCC, the original Smart Tweezers did not read them correctly and needed firmware update.
Example 10uF 10V 0603 at 3V is -40% for only 6uF. If you use a single ramp (compared to AC) to measure capacitance, then the value will be incorrect.
I can't agree with you anymore, the excitation signal is a key factor for the performance :D
We used a pure AC signal for R/L/C components.
I believe that floobydust is right in this question, so many serious tweezers allow you to select the voltage on the measurement pins from 0.1VRMS-1VRMS
This!
Make the excitation voltage selectable, and include also voltages low enough to not turn on pn junctions. This helps with in-circuit component measurements.
Price wise, you'll have to be clear on your value proposition.
-
How does it perform with MLCC?
Because the voltage coefficient of capacitance is quite bad with MLCC, the original Smart Tweezers did not read them correctly and needed firmware update.
Example 10uF 10V 0603 at 3V is -40% for only 6uF. If you use a single ramp (compared to AC) to measure capacitance, then the value will be incorrect.
I can't agree with you anymore, the excitation signal is a key factor for the performance :D
We used a pure AC signal for R/L/C components.
I believe that floobydust is right in this question, so many serious tweezers allow you to select the voltage on the measurement pins from 0.1VRMS-1VRMS
This!
Make the excitation voltage selectable, and include also voltages low enough to not turn on pn junctions. This helps with in-circuit component measurements.
Price wise, you'll have to be clear on your value proposition.
Thanks Zlotnik,
That's the other main point! we will support selectable excitation voltage for the different test cases, especially for the PCBA components and pin cap measurement.
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Here is the detailed features 8)
(https://i.ibb.co/6Dm74Np/Features.png) (https://ibb.co/TPkxHrn)
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I guess, you've seen that the pretty model ST5S/LCR Pro1 is 2 or 3 times expensive. :)
Well, I don't want to talk much about those product's shortcomings, they are more like DMM, here is a test and analysis post, you can get more details.
Have you ever seen an LCR Tweezers that could achieve 0.01% noise performance at that speed?
And look at the test image, we used 0.01% 2ppm precision resistors for the DUT.
We will post more details about the performance and structure design, it used as real precision tweezers, very easy to hold 0402 SMD components.
It is much more convenient to use than a stationary LCR meter, it could support SMD(independent or soldered on PCB) and through-hole components at the same time.
We have great confidence in it, you'll want to have a try ;)
The DT71 looks much more elegant and comfortable, the ST5S is unsightly. To use these tools as high-precision seems to me unwise. You can easily calibrate a demo sample and lose accuracy in mass production. If you ensure accuracy in mass production, it will be good. But we don't know that yet. :)
I didn't buy a DT71 for $50 and I won't buy yours for $100, it's expensive and more convenient for me to use a stationary device.
It is often very inconvenient to look at the tweezer readings when checking on the board due to the forced position of the tweezers. However, I suggest that you, as a friend function that will cure this deficiency: automatic locking readings. It works like this: if the measured value is stored for more than, for example, 2 seconds, issue a beep and record the readings so that you can turn the tweezers and look at the screen. Of course, the time and on/off of this function must be added to the settings. :)
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Shannon
Do allow for display flipping so to cater for both right and left hand users.
Don't change the form factor as it's proven to be very functional and robust.
It would seem from the # of digits displayed great accuracy can be obtained however for a device of this type it robs valuable display real estate that might be better used to show some other user setting or measurement parameter.
Will your tweezers allow for user firmware updates ?
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I guess, you've seen that the pretty model ST5S/LCR Pro1 is 2 or 3 times expensive. :)
Well, I don't want to talk much about those product's shortcomings, they are more like DMM, here is a test and analysis post, you can get more details.
Have you ever seen an LCR Tweezers that could achieve 0.01% noise performance at that speed?
And look at the test image, we used 0.01% 2ppm precision resistors for the DUT.
We will post more details about the performance and structure design, it used as real precision tweezers, very easy to hold 0402 SMD components.
It is much more convenient to use than a stationary LCR meter, it could support SMD(independent or soldered on PCB) and through-hole components at the same time.
We have great confidence in it, you'll want to have a try ;)
The DT71 looks much more elegant and comfortable, the ST5S is unsightly. To use these tools as high-precision seems to me unwise. You can easily calibrate a demo sample and lose accuracy in mass production. If you ensure accuracy in mass production, it will be good. But we don't know that yet. :)
I didn't buy a DT71 for $50 and I won't buy yours for $100, it's expensive and more convenient for me to use a stationary device.
It is often very inconvenient to look at the tweezer readings when checking on the board due to the forced position of the tweezers. However, I suggest that you, as a friend function that will cure this deficiency: automatic locking readings. It works like this: if the measured value is stored for more than, for example, 2 seconds, issue a beep and record the readings so that you can turn the tweezers and look at the screen. Of course, the time and on/off of this function must be added to the settings. :)
Elegance comes at some cost. I suggest you take a look at the comments on dt71 in this forum ;)
Thanks for your advice.
We have built in Hold function as the feature table show.
We are very serious about mass production specification, so the basic accuracy we cannot figure out in this stage, even through the test result is very good, BUT we have confidence in that because we didn't spend much attention on those calibrations to achieve less than 0.1% as the image shows. We will try to follow the strict definition by using 3 Sigma for the worse case.
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Shannon
Do allow for display flipping so to cater for both right and left hand users.
Don't change the form factor as it's proven to be very functional and robust.
It would seem from the # of digits displayed great accuracy can be obtained however for a device of this type it robs valuable display real estate that might be better used to show some other user setting or measurement parameter.
Will your tweezers allow for user firmware updates ?
Hi tautech,
Thanks for your advice.
display flipping is a design goal for this LCR tweezers.
We will certainly support firmware updates, but the update method has not been decided yet.
I will update the feature list later :D
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I guess, you've seen that the pretty model ST5S/LCR Pro1 is 2 or 3 times expensive. :)
Well, I don't want to talk much about those product's shortcomings, they are more like DMM, here is a test and analysis post, you can get more details.
Have you ever seen an LCR Tweezers that could achieve 0.01% noise performance at that speed?
And look at the test image, we used 0.01% 2ppm precision resistors for the DUT.
We will post more details about the performance and structure design, it used as real precision tweezers, very easy to hold 0402 SMD components.
It is much more convenient to use than a stationary LCR meter, it could support SMD(independent or soldered on PCB) and through-hole components at the same time.
We have great confidence in it, you'll want to have a try ;)
The DT71 looks much more elegant and comfortable, the ST5S is unsightly. To use these tools as high-precision seems to me unwise. You can easily calibrate a demo sample and lose accuracy in mass production. If you ensure accuracy in mass production, it will be good. But we don't know that yet. :)
I didn't buy a DT71 for $50 and I won't buy yours for $100, it's expensive and more convenient for me to use a stationary device.
It is often very inconvenient to look at the tweezer readings when checking on the board due to the forced position of the tweezers. However, I suggest that you, as a friend function that will cure this deficiency: automatic locking readings. It works like this: if the measured value is stored for more than, for example, 2 seconds, issue a beep and record the readings so that you can turn the tweezers and look at the screen. Of course, the time and on/off of this function must be added to the settings. :)
What stationary device do you use?
I like the idea of the reading becoming "sticky" on the display, so you can review it. Why not keep the previous reading until the user takes a new measurement...
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I guess, you've seen that the pretty model ST5S/LCR Pro1 is 2 or 3 times expensive. :)
Well, I don't want to talk much about those product's shortcomings, they are more like DMM, here is a test and analysis post, you can get more details.
Have you ever seen an LCR Tweezers that could achieve 0.01% noise performance at that speed?
And look at the test image, we used 0.01% 2ppm precision resistors for the DUT.
We will post more details about the performance and structure design, it used as real precision tweezers, very easy to hold 0402 SMD components.
It is much more convenient to use than a stationary LCR meter, it could support SMD(independent or soldered on PCB) and through-hole components at the same time.
We have great confidence in it, you'll want to have a try ;)
The DT71 looks much more elegant and comfortable, the ST5S is unsightly. To use these tools as high-precision seems to me unwise. You can easily calibrate a demo sample and lose accuracy in mass production. If you ensure accuracy in mass production, it will be good. But we don't know that yet. :)
I didn't buy a DT71 for $50 and I won't buy yours for $100, it's expensive and more convenient for me to use a stationary device.
It is often very inconvenient to look at the tweezer readings when checking on the board due to the forced position of the tweezers. However, I suggest that you, as a friend function that will cure this deficiency: automatic locking readings. It works like this: if the measured value is stored for more than, for example, 2 seconds, issue a beep and record the readings so that you can turn the tweezers and look at the screen. Of course, the time and on/off of this function must be added to the settings. :)
What stationary device do you use?
I like the idea of the reading becoming "sticky" on the display, so you can review it. Why not keep the previous reading until the user takes a new measurement...
Hi SilverSolder,
we have implemented hold function.
if hold mode was enabled, when the tips of tweezers leave the DUT, the test result would keep display. :D
Why not keep the previous reading until the user takes a new measurement
The reason is that it's not easy to decide when the tips are leaving the DUT
For example, assume the DUT is a precision resistor, the test value is stable before we try to release the tips, and then we loosen the arms of tweezers, contact states are changing, milliohm contact resistance is introduced, but the test is still running, and a new test result is displayed on the screen which has some uncertainty.
So hold function is better to be an optional mode when you can accept some uncertain, even though these uncertainties are usually small
There is a way to hold the precision result is we ask this tweezers "HOLD" the value during stable measurement, and tweezers stop the measurement and keep the stable value until next measurement.
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If the auto-hold function looks for a long enough period of stable readings before updating the measured value then it should ignore a few milliseconds of instability as the pressure is released.
Would likely be a bit of a compromise between speed and stability though, and there might need to be a dead-band around open-circuit that would mean very small capacitors need to be measured without auto-hold.
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[...]
Why not keep the previous reading until the user takes a new measurement
The reason is that it's not easy to decide when the tips are leaving the DUT
For example, assume the DUT is a precision resistor, the test value is stable before we try to release the tips, and then we loosen the arms of tweezers, contact states are changing, milliohm contact resistance is introduced, but the test is still running, and a new test result is displayed on the screen which has some uncertainty.
So hold function is better to be an optional mode when you can accept some uncertain, even though these uncertainties are usually small
There is a way to hold the precision result is we ask this tweezers "HOLD" the value during stable measurement, and tweezers stop the measurement and keep the stable value until next measurement.
The algorithm could be: When reliably detecting the tweezers have "let go" of the DUT, show and hold the statistical MODE (the most frequently occurring value) of the previous 300ms of readings before the tweezers were "let go".
That way, you would always "hold" a stable and good reading, completely filtering out any glitches during the process of "letting go" of the DUT.
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If the auto-hold function looks for a long enough period of stable readings before updating the measured value then it should ignore a few milliseconds of instability as the pressure is released.
Would likely be a bit of a compromise between speed and stability though, and there might need to be a dead-band around open-circuit that would mean very small capacitors need to be measured without auto-hold.
RIGHT!
We could try to optimize the hold logic to get more accurate results.
But to be honest, there are many cases leading to the noisy result.
MLCC value would be influenced by vibration, temperature, even the excitation signal due to the piezoelectric effect
The impedance of any DUT that is too small would be noisy as well :palm:
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If the auto-hold function looks for a long enough period of stable readings before updating the measured value then it should ignore a few milliseconds of instability as the pressure is released.
Would likely be a bit of a compromise between speed and stability though, and there might need to be a dead-band around open-circuit that would mean very small capacitors need to be measured without auto-hold.
RIGHT!
We could try to optimize the hold logic to get more accurate results.
But to be honest, there are many cases leading to the noisy result.
MLCC value would be influenced by vibration, temperature, even the excitation signal due to the piezoelectric effect
The impedance of any DUT that is too small would be noisy as well :palm:
In addition to taking the MODE of the last few hundred ms of readings, you could calculate the standard deviation and indicate to the user (on the display) a little icon that indicates a "good" reading with a tight spread? Always ignoring the last few ms of "letting go". Additionally, during the measurement, generate a (quiet!) beep when a stable reading is obtained, so user knows when to let go the DUT... and then of course hold that value in the display?
This is the kind of stuff that would make your tweezers worth $100 to someone, over a cheaper one.
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If the auto-hold function looks for a long enough period of stable readings before updating the measured value then it should ignore a few milliseconds of instability as the pressure is released.
Would likely be a bit of a compromise between speed and stability though, and there might need to be a dead-band around open-circuit that would mean very small capacitors need to be measured without auto-hold.
RIGHT!
We could try to optimize the hold logic to get more accurate results.
But to be honest, there are many cases leading to the noisy result.
MLCC value would be influenced by vibration, temperature, even the excitation signal due to the piezoelectric effect
The impedance of any DUT that is too small would be noisy as well :palm:
In addition to taking the MODE of the last few hundred ms of readings, you could calculate the standard deviation and indicate to the user (on the display) a little icon that indicates a "good" reading with a tight spread? Always ignoring the last few ms of "letting go". Additionally, during the measurement, generate a (quiet!) beep when a stable reading is obtained, so user knows when to let go the DUT... and then of course hold that value in the display?
Thanks SilverSolder, it's a good idea!
We have integrated BEEP in the circuit which could inform the user "letting go" signal.
The threshold of standard deviation could be a reasonable value.
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Mechanical Design
I have used some SMD tweezers, although they are much more convenient than using a multimeter or Kelvin clip, but there is still a lot of gap between the handle a real tweezer, so we try to optimize mechanical design to improve the user experience. I've seen the mechanical design of the SMD tweezers on the market, such as directly soldered tweezers‘arm on PCB, hinge structure, etc., which are not reliable and easy to make SMD devices fly away.
Tweezers mechanical analysis:
The figure attached is an ordinary commercial tweezer. By analyzing the movement of tweezers tip in three axes, we can judge what precision tweezers are like
A criterion to judge whether a tweezer is easy to use is that the movement in the y-axis direction must be very small, which is the key to stability. When clamping the SMD device, there must be no shaking in the y-direction, otherwise, the device will fly off
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A criterion to judge whether a tweezer is easy to use is that the movement in the y-axis direction must be very small, which is the key to stability. When clamping the SMD device, there must be no shaking in the y-direction, otherwise, the device will fly off
Correct however after some experience with SMD tweezers the correct 'feel' develops and components are then rarely lost. Hold any component too firmly and the risk of losing it is great.
Like any tool a little patience is required for your own skills to develop......tweezers are very different to pliers. ;)
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For sure, no sloppy hinges etc., that would definitely spoil it. It doesn't have to be a surgical tool, but it should feel good to use...
People have different sized hands, and different strength fingers, and different preferences with how hard they like to pinch the tweezers. What if it used a separate spring between the two halves, and you could choose between a "stiff" and a "soft" spring? The customer can then make it perfect for how they like to use it... and it is an ergonomic selling point that nobody else has...
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A criterion to judge whether a tweezer is easy to use is that the movement in the y-axis direction must be very small, which is the key to stability. When clamping the SMD device, there must be no shaking in the y-direction, otherwise, the device will fly off
Correct however after some experience with SMD tweezers the correct 'feel' develops and components are then rarely lost. Hold any component too firmly and the risk of losing it is great.
Like any tool a little patience is required for your own skills to develop......tweezers are very different to pliers. ;)
If possible, we'd rather spend the same money on more stable tweezers rather than unstable ones, even for soldering
Making it easier to use is one of our goals ;)
For the LCR tweezers, a better mechanical design may not cost too much to produce, but it needs more design effort and will make the user feel good.
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People have different sized hands, and different strength fingers, and different preferences with how hard they like to pinch the tweezers. What if it used a separate spring between the two halves, and you could choose between a "stiff" and a "soft" spring? The customer can then make it perfect for how they like to use it... and it is an ergonomic selling point that nobody else has...
Thanks SilverSolder,
another good idea, we will try to add a spring, and to feel if it's different :D
By the way, if it is mass-produced, can we send you a pair of tweezers to thank you for your suggestions, because it has your contribution.
To be honest, one of the reasons we're publishing these ideas here is to make it better, and we will try to appreciate those help.
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Del
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People have different sized hands, and different strength fingers, and different preferences with how hard they like to pinch the tweezers. What if it used a separate spring between the two halves, and you could choose between a "stiff" and a "soft" spring? The customer can then make it perfect for how they like to use it... and it is an ergonomic selling point that nobody else has...
Thanks SilverSolder,
another good idea, we will try to add a spring, and to feel if it's different :D
By the way, if it is mass-produced, can we send you a pair of tweezers to thank you for your suggestions, because it has your contribution.
To be honest, one of the reasons we're publishing these ideas here is to make it better, and we will try to appreciate those help.
If possible, send it to me for testing. Using different springs is an interesting idea, but changing them in a miniature device will not be very convenient, especially if it is a twisted coil spring. I think U-shaped springs from the plate are most applicable, such springs can be folded several pieces for reinforcement.
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Del
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By the way, if it is mass-produced, can we send you a pair of tweezers to thank you for your suggestions, because it has your contribution.
I would also be grateful for one tweezers you sent me to test. If possible. :)
Thanks indman and S. Petrukhin
If crowdfunding is successful, we can make mass-produced to be true, and we will send some to those who have a good idea to help us optimize the design for appreciation ;)
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By the way, if it is mass-produced, can we send you a pair of tweezers to thank you for your suggestions, because it has your contribution.
I would also be grateful for one tweezers you sent me to test. If possible. :)
Thanks indman and S. Petrukhin
If crowdfunding is successful, we will send some to those who have a good idea to help us optimize the design for appreciation ;)
Did you get my PM a day or two ago ?
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Mechanical Design
A criterion to judge whether a tweezer is easy to use is that the movement in the y-axis direction must be very small, which is the key to stability. When clamping the SMD device, there must be no shaking in the y-direction, otherwise, the device will fly off
We used this criterion to test the performance of SMD tweezers and ordinary tweezers.
I tried to use my finger to separate the tip of the tweezers gently in the Y-axis direction (it's difficult to quantify the strength, but I try to be fair, sorry for there's no more accurate and convenient method). Attached is the test photo, and the results are as follows
Precision Tweezers > ESD tweezers > ST5S > DT71 > HP-990B
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Shannon, what frequency limit of the test signal can your tweezers provide?
Is it possible to raise it to 50-100 kHz?
And one more question - what resolution and accuracy can you provide for the secondary parameter "D"and "Q"?
You will have to compete with the rather successful and inexpensive MS8911 tweezers. :)
Currently, we focus on 10kHz, but we are still striving for the support of IC with higher performance, and we think there is a high possibility to expand excitation frequency to 100kHz in the future. 8)
For the secondary parameter "D"and "Q", it's very hard to specified, the main parameter has a huge impact on the secondary parameter, and The range of main parameters is very wide, so it's hard to determine the boundary of the secondary parameter
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I don't know if this is just me, but rounded ends on the tweezers makes life much more difficult than pointed ends... Maybe I'm poking around inside too much old junk, and actually taking core samples rather than measuring electric parameters? :D
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I don't know if this is just me, but rounded ends on the tweezers makes life much more difficult than pointed ends... Maybe I'm poking around inside too much old junk, and actually taking core samples rather than measuring electric parameters? :D
To suit todays miniscule SMD points need be some 20 thou (0.5mm) or finer and for rework some sharpness can be useful for in-circuit measurements if needing to get through oxides.
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What is the excitation voltage for Diode/LED mode? Will it be the same 1.0V AC signal, or do you have some extra hardware range to bump it up to battery voltage (~3V).
I would definitely pay $100 for these over the DT71's, from what you've posted here and in the other thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/?topicseen).
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Shannon,
You will have to compete with the rather successful and inexpensive MS8911 tweezers. :)
Ms8911 and our LCR tweezers are not at the same level, at least in terms of performance.
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What is the excitation voltage for Diode/LED mode? Will it be the same 1.0V AC signal, or do you have some extra hardware range to bump it up to battery voltage (~3V).
I would definitely pay $100 for these over the DT71's, from what you've posted here and in the other thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/?topicseen).
Hi thm_w,
Thanks for your support. :)
We use DC excitation for Diode/LED mode, and use pure AC signal for impedance measurement.
In theory, Diode/LED are non-linear devices, the relationship between current and voltage is exponential and R/L/C are linear devices, the current is proportional to the voltage.
So the test mode for Diode/LED is a constant current source which supply excitation current to these components, generally 1mA/2mA, and then measure the voltage drop on LED/Diode.
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For the diode test, it would be cool if it just "blinked" the diode long enough to make a measurement, instead of keeping it constantly lit and wasting battery. As with the other components, it should just beep when it has the reading, and keep it on the display...
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Del
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So the test mode for Diode/LED is a constant current source which supply excitation current to these components, generally 1mA/2mA, and then measure the voltage drop on LED/Diode.
If you have added the beep capability for measurements, it would be very good to make 1 short beep for silicon diodes with a voltage drop of 0.5-0.7V and 2 short beeps for diodes with a Schottky barrier. This is great for quick testing.
Yes this would be useful for diode identification and much better than just a polarity or short indication that my ST3 does. With these old ST3 models you had to select diode mode whereas I believe ST5 recognises diodes in Auto mode.
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Hi Shannon,
I believe that floobydust is right in this question, so many serious tweezers allow you to select the voltage on the measurement pins from 0.1VRMS-1VRMS
This!
Make the excitation voltage selectable, and include also voltages low enough to not turn on pn junctions. This helps with in-circuit component measurements.
Price wise, you'll have to be clear on your value proposition.
Thanks Zlotnik,
That's the other main point! we will support selectable excitation voltage for the different test cases, especially for the PCBA components and pin cap measurement.
How low do you plan to go? In the main spec sheet you specify 0.5V, which is still a tad high. (Think Schottky). The MS8911 goes down to 0.1V. You may not get the excellent accuracy any more, but for in-circuit testing, this is very useful.
Also, I'm not quite sure fully get the value proposition over something like the MS8911 yet. I caught the following
- significantly higher accuracy
- mechanically better tweezers
- LiIon battery, rechargeable via USB-C
All three are nice points, I would like them for sure! It will be very hard to compete with the price point though. The mechanical quality of the MS8911 is okay, the coin cells last forever, and most of the time 2% accuracy of plenty for LCR Tweezers. So 100€$£ will be too much it you already have tweezers.
I think overall usability needs to be killer in your tweezers! That's where the LCR Bridge tweezers like the MS8911 don't shine, and the distance to the more modern / nicer DT71 is bigger specwise.
Personally, I'd really like a well working auto-hold function, as discussed by others. Touch, beep, take off and read.
Maybe include a force/pressure reading into the tweezers to detect when the user is beginning to release the grip?
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So the test mode for Diode/LED is a constant current source which supply excitation current to these components, generally 1mA/2mA, and then measure the voltage drop on LED/Diode.
If you have added the beep capability for measurements, it would be very good to make 1 short beep for silicon diodes with a voltage drop of 0.5-0.7V and 2 short beeps for diodes with a Schottky barrier. If the diode is short and there is no voltage drop, then a continuous sound signal. This is great for quick testing.
Thanks indman
it's a good idea, we will try to implement this function by modifying firmware, add some notice mode that may be better for the user.
when a user has a headache about the bugs on PCBA, it's better to inform him by sound, without staring at the screen, just keeping the eyes on the tweezers' tips and components could make the user comfortable.
Continuity Check would be considered as well, eg. When the resistance is less than approx.30Ω, the Buzzer is sounded
-
So the test mode for Diode/LED is a constant current source which supply excitation current to these components, generally 1mA/2mA, and then measure the voltage drop on LED/Diode.
If you have added the beep capability for measurements, it would be very good to make 1 short beep for silicon diodes with a voltage drop of 0.5-0.7V and 2 short beeps for diodes with a Schottky barrier. If the diode is short and there is no voltage drop, then a continuous sound signal. This is great for quick testing.
Thanks indman
it's a good idea, we will try to implement this function by modifying firmware, add some notice mode that may be better for the user.
when a user has a headache about the bugs on PCBA, it's better to inform him by sound, without staring at the screen, just keeping the eyes on the tweezers' tips and components could make the user comfortable.
Continuity Check would be considered as well, eg. When the resistance is less than approx.30Ω, the Buzzer is sounded
30 ohm seems a little high for continuity. Maybe make the threshold configurable? It is one of those things that depend on what you are doing...
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Del
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Hi Shannon,
I believe that floobydust is right in this question, so many serious tweezers allow you to select the voltage on the measurement pins from 0.1VRMS-1VRMS
This!
Make the excitation voltage selectable, and include also voltages low enough to not turn on pn junctions. This helps with in-circuit component measurements.
Price wise, you'll have to be clear on your value proposition.
Thanks Zlotnik,
That's the other main point! we will support selectable excitation voltage for the different test cases, especially for the PCBA components and pin cap measurement.
How low do you plan to go? In the main spec sheet you specify 0.5V, which is still a tad high. (Think Schottky). The MS8911 goes down to 0.1V. You may not get the excellent accuracy any more, but for in-circuit testing, this is very useful.
All three are nice points, I would like them for sure! It will be very hard to compete with the price point though. The mechanical quality of the MS8911 is okay, the coin cells last forever, and most of the time 2% accuracy of plenty for LCR Tweezers. So 100€$£ will be too much it you already have tweezers.
I think overall usability needs to be killer in your tweezers! That's where the LCR Bridge tweezers like the MS8911 don't shine, and the distance to the more modern / nicer DT71 is bigger specwise.
Maybe include a force/pressure reading into the tweezers to detect when the user is beginning to release the grip?
Thanks Zlotnik
Actually, we plan to use 0.5Vpp as the low voltage excitation, so the Vp would be 0.25V which may defend the measurement from the Schottky diode. add more voltage options would be a better choice, we will consider that. ;)
using force/pressure sensor to detect user behavior may cover the SMD test mode, and these tweezers could test through-hole components as well, there may no force on the tweezers' arm at that time
and we could detect the user behavior by value measurement, most of the time, when the customer finished the test, the measured result would be very close to open.
I have no idea about the mechanical quality of MS8911, but we have confidence in doing better
for the tool selection, I think different people have different tastes and habits.
some people choose those "could work" tools, some people choose those "high performance and high quality" tools.
I have two 6.5 DMM, and I enjoy the user experience
If we use a good tool for many years, the cost is not a problem, but we got a better mood every time.
And I admit that MS8911, DT71, and many DIY impedance tweezers could meet most of the daily requirements, like the 3.5 digits handy DMM and 50Mhz analog oscilloscope.
But we still want to use better tools during daily work.
We have much much higher cost performance than the high ends SMD tweezers, that's what we believe 8)
and do you have MS8911, could you kindly help us conduct an experiment? try to make the tips move in the Y-axis, which would show the stability of the tweezers mechanical design, as I post.
-
So the test mode for Diode/LED is a constant current source which supply excitation current to these components, generally 1mA/2mA, and then measure the voltage drop on LED/Diode.
If you have added the beep capability for measurements, it would be very good to make 1 short beep for silicon diodes with a voltage drop of 0.5-0.7V and 2 short beeps for diodes with a Schottky barrier. If the diode is short and there is no voltage drop, then a continuous sound signal. This is great for quick testing.
Thanks indman
it's a good idea, we will try to implement this function by modifying firmware, add some notice mode that may be better for the user.
when a user has a headache about the bugs on PCBA, it's better to inform him by sound, without staring at the screen, just keeping the eyes on the tweezers' tips and components could make the user comfortable.
Continuity Check would be considered as well, eg. When the resistance is less than approx.30Ω, the Buzzer is sounded
30 ohm seems a little high for continuity. Maybe make the threshold configurable? It is one of those things that depend on what you are doing...
No problem, we collect another good idea ;)
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I am afraid that if Shannon implements all the good ideas that the participants suggested to him, then the cost of such tweezers will be much higher than ST-5S Pro! This is,of course,a joke,but there is some truth in it. ;D
:-DD
For the requirements and features, users always have better ideas than those designers.
So professional people do professional things.
I open my mind to collect user's requirements to optimize the design, and you will enjoy the product with functions defined by yourself.
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Del
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So professional people do professional things.
Well then, for complete happiness and a complete set, this tweezers would be very useful to be able to communicate with a PC or Android, as well as output and save measurement results on a larger display. ;)
Just not Bluetooth, pleeeease!
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So professional people do professional things.
Well then, for complete happiness and a complete set, this tweezers would be very useful to be able to communicate with a PC or Android, as well as output and save measurement results on a larger display. ;)
Just not Bluetooth, pleeeease!
Well, BlueTooth is not in consideration at present, at least this version :P
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So professional people do professional things.
Well then, for complete happiness and a complete set, this tweezers would be very useful to be able to communicate with a PC or Android, as well as output and save measurement results on a larger display. ;)
Just not Bluetooth, pleeeease!
Well, BlueTooth is not in consideration at present, at least this version :P
A possible solution might be wifi, so you could use relatively standard ways to access the data e.g. FTP and/or HTTP. That opens the possibility for users to relatively easily write their own software to pick up the test data (as a CSV file for example), and a simple and clean HTTP web page means any device can see the data - Android, IOS, PC, Linux... - the key to make this useful and practical is to keep it simple, keep it standard... (and a big enough battery!).
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How low do you plan to go? In the main spec sheet you specify 0.5V, which is still a tad high. (Think Schottky). The MS8911 goes down to 0.1V. You may not get the excellent accuracy any more, but for in-circuit testing, this is very useful.
Actually, we plan to use 0.5Vpp as the low voltage excitation, so the Vp would be 0.25V which may defend the measurement from the Schottky diode. add more voltage options would be a better choice, we will consider that. ;)
Ah! I missed that you specified it as Vpp.
The MS8911 output 0.1Vrms, so 0.28Vpp. I'd prefer <0.4Vpp, but 0.5Vpp should suffice for most cases.
What do you mean with Vp=0.25V, btw? You would always apply the full voltage swing, so if the potential between the tweezers is sufficient to turn on a junction, well, you turn on the junction.
Maybe include a force/pressure reading into the tweezers to detect when the user is beginning to release the grip?
using force/pressure sensor to detect user behavior may cover the SMD test mode, and these tweezers could test through-hole components as well, there may no force on the tweezers' arm at that time and we could detect the user behavior by value measurement, most of the time, when the customer finished the test, the measured result would be very close to open.
Yep, sure. It would only make sense to include a pressure sensor if you can pull it of cheaply. Makes no sense to include a 10€ strain gauge. Maybe if you went the DT71 route with magnets instead of springs, you can include a hall-effect sensor?
Anyway, it could very well work reliably just by looking at the measured values: look out for when there's a stable non open-contact value for eg 0.5s, beep, and display median of this 0.5s measurement until the next stable non open-contact value is seen by the uC.
Just don't do it like on the MS8911: they have a button you have to press to hold the value. Pointless. If I can take my other hand to press the button while applying the tweezers, I could just as well read the value.
Coming to think of it, the simples and most flexible implementation would be a button that you can easily press while operating the tweezers. That would be something!
for the tool selection, I think different people have different tastes and habits.
some people choose those "could work" tools, some people choose those "high performance and high quality" tools.
I have two 6.5 DMM, and I enjoy the user experience
If we use a good tool for many years, the cost is not a problem, but we got a better mood every time.
And I admit that MS8911, DT71, and many DIY impedance tweezers could meet most of the daily requirements, like the 3.5 digits handy DMM and 50Mhz analog oscilloscope.
But we still want to use better tools during daily work.
Couldn't agree more! At work, tools (at least on this level) are not what's costly, it's time. At home, this is a hobby for me. If my tools give me more enjoyment doing my hobby, great.
However it's always a question of do I need another tool X. This is where you'll have to compete against whatever people already have at home/work. Here you have to make clear why your tweezers are just so much better, that you have to get them ;)
We have much much higher cost performance than the high ends SMD tweezers, that's what we believe 8)
Great! I don't doubt that at all - but I think it needs to be clearly communicated what's the appealing package. Eg accuracy better than the tolerance of your passives, premium mechanics, UI though out by engineers for engineers. Nice!
BTW, the higher accuracy is actually nice, as this would allow you eg to bin values and make use of lower-tolerance passives you have lying around.
I have no idea about the mechanical quality of MS8911, but we have confidence in doing better
[...]
and do you have MS8911, could you kindly help us conduct an experiment? try to make the tips move in the Y-axis, which would show the stability of the tweezers mechanical design, as I post.
Sure!
The MS8911 really aren't anything to write home about mechanically. Where my "good" tweezers (not premium, these ones happen to come from an iFixit set) flex maybe 0.1mm in y, the MS8911 flex an easy 1mm or so.
No doubt you can do better! The MS8911 don't exactly feel like premium tweezers. All plasticky and stuff.
They are however still good enough to easily grab 0603. 0402 works as well, but starts to feel a bit off, like picking up a bone china cup of tea with oven mitts.
HTH,
Alex
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So professional people do professional things.
Well then, for complete happiness and a complete set, this tweezers would be very useful to be able to communicate with a PC or Android, as well as output and save measurement results on a larger display. ;)
Just not Bluetooth, pleeeease!
Well, BlueTooth is not in consideration at present, at least this version :P
A possible solution might be wifi, so you could use relatively standard ways to access the data e.g. FTP and/or HTTP. That opens the possibility for users to relatively easily write their own software to pick up the test data (as a CSV file for example), and a simple and clean HTTP web page means any device can see the data - Android, IOS, PC, Linux... - the key to make this useful and practical is to keep it simple, keep it standard... (and a big enough battery!).
If you end up using eg an ESP32 as uC, you'd get that for free. Have a "live display" web view. Bonus points if you open-source your firmware for tinkerers to tinker, as the DT71!
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[...]
The MS8911 really aren't anything to write home about mechanically. Where my "good" tweezers (not premium, these ones happen to come from an iFixit set) flex maybe 0.1mm in y, the MS8911 flex an easy 1mm or so.
No doubt you can do better! The MS8911 don't exactly feel like premium tweezers. All plasticky and stuff.
They are however still good enough to easily grab 0603. 0402 works as well, but starts to feel a bit off, like picking up a bone china cup of tea with oven mitts.
HTH,
Alex
The MS8911 is an amazing product for its price point - it strikes an impressively good balance between quality, features, and price. They did a nice job.
To be worth twice or more of the cost of a Mastech, an alternative product will have to be a work of art! :D
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The MS8911 is an amazing product for its price point - it strikes an impressively good balance between quality, features, and price. They did a nice job.
They needed to as their previous product was a POS even compared to my now ancient ST3 from 2007.
I've seen a few rave about the later 8911 but maybe they have never used an A brand SMD tweezer. :-//
Shannon knows what's required and will likely present us with a top class product.
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How low do you plan to go? In the main spec sheet you specify 0.5V, which is still a tad high. (Think Schottky). The MS8911 goes down to 0.1V. You may not get the excellent accuracy any more, but for in-circuit testing, this is very useful.
They are however still good enough to easily grab 0603. 0402 works as well, but starts to feel a bit off, like picking up a bone china cup of tea with oven mitts.
haha, Good metaphor!
Thanks a lot for your comments, which help us understand the needs of a number of users, and consider the possibility of middle-end requirements :)
we try to make it best and then wait for the people who like it.
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[...]
The MS8911 really aren't anything to write home about mechanically. Where my "good" tweezers (not premium, these ones happen to come from an iFixit set) flex maybe 0.1mm in y, the MS8911 flex an easy 1mm or so.
No doubt you can do better! The MS8911 don't exactly feel like premium tweezers. All plasticky and stuff.
They are however still good enough to easily grab 0603. 0402 works as well, but starts to feel a bit off, like picking up a bone china cup of tea with oven mitts.
HTH,
Alex
The MS8911 is an amazing product for its price point - it strikes an impressively good balance between quality, features, and price. They did a nice job.
To be worth twice or more of the cost of a Mastech, an alternative product will have to be a work of art! :D
WE ARE THE ARTIST >:D
I believe the key to success is the art of balance.
MS8911 got a nice balanced point, we will get another balanced point as well
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The MS8911 is an amazing product for its price point - it strikes an impressively good balance between quality, features, and price. They did a nice job.
They needed to as their previous product was a POS even compared to my now ancient ST3 from 2007.
I've seen a few rave about the later 8911 but maybe they have never used an A brand SMD tweezer. :-//
Shannon knows what's required and will likely present us with a top class product.
I have never used anything better than the 8911, but I have used worse! :D
-
So professional people do professional things.
Well then, for complete happiness and a complete set, this tweezers would be very useful to be able to communicate with a PC or Android, as well as output and save measurement results on a larger display. ;)
Just not Bluetooth, pleeeease!
Well, BlueTooth is not in consideration at present, at least this version :P
A possible solution might be wifi, so you could use relatively standard ways to access the data e.g. FTP and/or HTTP. That opens the possibility for users to relatively easily write their own software to pick up the test data (as a CSV file for example), and a simple and clean HTTP web page means any device can see the data - Android, IOS, PC, Linux... - the key to make this useful and practical is to keep it simple, keep it standard... (and a big enough battery!).
If you end up using eg an ESP32 as uC, you'd get that for free. Have a "live display" web view. Bonus points if you open-source your firmware for tinkerers to tinker, as the DT71!
we considered the wifi and Bluetooth scheme, the decision is hard to make, we believe we could do that, but not yet.
I think recording the test result on PC is a function more suitable for manufacturing factories, such as the ICT application, component inspection, etc.
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[...]
The MS8911 really aren't anything to write home about mechanically.
The MS8911 is an amazing product for its price point - it strikes an impressively good balance between quality, features, and price. They did a nice job.
To be worth twice or more of the cost of a Mastech, an alternative product will have to be a work of art! :D
Yeah, don't go get me wrong: I do like my MS8911! I think they're the lcr tweezers to beat, and Shannon and friends needs to be very clear why their tweezers are better, if they want to compete at x2 price :)
But Shannon asked explicitly about the tweezers' mechanical qualities as compared to premium "real" (ie not lcr) tweezers. And there, the MS8911 aren't particularly stunning. No idea how the "better" LCR tweezers on the market compare mechanically.
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The MS8911 is an amazing product for its price point - it strikes an impressively good balance between quality, features, and price. They did a nice job.
They needed to as their previous product was a POS even compared to my now ancient ST3 from 2007.
I've seen a few rave about the later 8911 but maybe they have never used an A brand SMD tweezer. :-//
Shannon knows what's required and will likely present us with a top class product.
I have never used anything better than the 8911, but I have used worse! :D
come on, you are wealthy SilverSolder, and we are SnPbSolder ^-^
try to change your taste once in a while, the steak is delicious, even the bread could make you full :popcorn:
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[...]
The MS8911 really aren't anything to write home about mechanically.
The MS8911 is an amazing product for its price point - it strikes an impressively good balance between quality, features, and price. They did a nice job.
To be worth twice or more of the cost of a Mastech, an alternative product will have to be a work of art! :D
Yeah, don't go get me wrong: I do like my MS8911! I think they're the lcr tweezers to beat, and Shannon and friends needs to be very clear why their tweezers are better, if they want to compete at x2 price :)
But Shannon asked explicitly about the tweezers' mechanical qualities as compared to premium "real" (ie not lcr) tweezers. And there, the MS8911 aren't particularly stunning. No idea how the "better" LCR tweezers on the market compare mechanically.
Thanks Zlotnik,
take it easy ;D
I have an assumption in mind now, if we have a similar performance such as MS8911 or DT71 and a similar price with a better user experience, what's going to happen?
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So professional people do professional things.
Well then, for complete happiness and a complete set, this tweezers would be very useful to be able to communicate with a PC or Android, as well as output and save measurement results on a larger display. ;)
Just not Bluetooth, pleeeease!
Well, BlueTooth is not in consideration at present, at least this version :P
A possible solution might be wifi, so you could use relatively standard ways to access the data e.g. FTP and/or HTTP. That opens the possibility for users to relatively easily write their own software to pick up the test data (as a CSV file for example), and a simple and clean HTTP web page means any device can see the data - Android, IOS, PC, Linux... - the key to make this useful and practical is to keep it simple, keep it standard... (and a big enough battery!).
If you end up using eg an ESP32 as uC, you'd get that for free. Have a "live display" web view. Bonus points if you open-source your firmware for tinkerers to tinker, as the DT71!
we considered the wifi and Bluetooth scheme, the decision is hard to make, we believe we could do that, but not yet.
I think recording the test result on PC is a function more suitable for manufacturing factories, such as the ICT application, component inspection, etc.
But, having the values list on the PC screen as you pick them up is huge - you could even pipe that display into something like Google Glass that you wear, so you don't even have to look at the display while working with the tiny parts...
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The MS8911 is an amazing product for its price point - it strikes an impressively good balance between quality, features, and price. They did a nice job.
They needed to as their previous product was a POS even compared to my now ancient ST3 from 2007.
I've seen a few rave about the later 8911 but maybe they have never used an A brand SMD tweezer. :-//
Shannon knows what's required and will likely present us with a top class product.
I have never used anything better than the 8911, but I have used worse! :D
come on, you are wealthy SilverSolder, and we are SnPbSolder ^-^
try to change your taste once in a while, the steak is delicious, even the bread could make you full :popcorn:
Back in college, one of the instructors (who I knew was a millionaire, retired, and teaching just because he liked to do that) drove to work in an incredibly beat up old Fiat. I asked him, "Sir, I know you are a millionaire, why are you driving such a terrible car?" - his answer stuck with me for life: "Priorities. I have a crappy car, a big sailboat, a beautiful woman, and I take 6 months vacation a year. What are your priorities, son?" - What can you really say against that? I tried driving crappy cars for years, but none of the other compensating events ever happened! :D
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Shannon
Have you decided on a warranty scheme ?
Are you ready to show a simple video of your tweezers in use ?
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Shannon
Have you decided on a warranty scheme ?
Are you ready to show a simple video of your tweezers in use ?
tautech
we don't make the decision at present, we may support 1-year limited warranty.
Due to the menu and UI is still modifying these days, we are plan to show the video early next week. ;)
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I'm very glad to see this thread progress, and hold my fingers that indeed this will turn out to be a good instrument in both accuracy and user experience. Personally, I think an instrument with good accuracy and UI that has repeatable and reliable results over time is much better than one with excellent accuracy that sacrifices UI or long term stability (like the UT61E which I've measured over time and seen it drift out of spec quite quickly :)).
Good job Shannon for the work so far, including being open to so much feedback from the people here on the forum. It can be difficult to come up with something that will make everyone happy (probably impossible :)) with everyone pulling to a different direction. So far it seems to be on the right track of finding the common ground without pushing size/price too far.
I will definitely keep watching this thread to see what you come up with and how/when it will be available.
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I'm very glad to see this thread progress, and hold my fingers that indeed this will turn out to be a good instrument in both accuracy and user experience. Personally, I think an instrument with good accuracy and UI that has repeatable and reliable results over time is much better than one with excellent accuracy that sacrifices UI or long term stability (like the UT61E which I've measured over time and seen it drift out of spec quite quickly :)).
Good job Shannon for the work so far, including being open to so much feedback from the people here on the forum. It can be difficult to come up with something that will make everyone happy (probably impossible :)) with everyone pulling to a different direction. So far it seems to be on the right track of finding the common ground without pushing size/price too far.
I will definitely keep watching this thread to see what you come up with and how/when it will be available.
toli
Thanks for your support
Long-term stability is really a key value for a metrological instrument, such as high precision DMM.
We build the self-calibration and manual zero and short calibration functions for these LCR tweezers, which is very helpful for long-term stability.
UI is under continuous optimization, and a simple video is coming soon, hope you like it ;)
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Below link is the first video presentation, and it's still under continuous optimization. Any comments are welcome. :)
We use 3D printing material for the shell for this prototype, so it's white. After mass production, it will be changed to black or other colors ABS.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61nLU3FGTk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61nLU3FGTk)
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Looking good ! :clap:
Can you make it sense a diode in Auto mode so to not have to select Diode mode ?
There also seems room on the display to place a Vf diode measurement, can we do that with the current levels of excitation ?
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Looking good, you are the artists!
I only noticed one bug: "Cancel" only has one L (not CANCELL, but CANCEL)
Too early to demo the Beep on Capture in the Hold function?
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BTW Shannon your efforts to develop a new SMD tweezer for the marketplace has also been noticed here:
https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/lcr-pro1-plus.160725/post-1603452
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nice !
just the esr values when you measure capacitors seems odd to me ?
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Del
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Looking good ! :clap:
Can you make it sense a diode in Auto mode so to not have to select Diode mode ?
There also seems room on the display to place a Vf diode measurement, can we do that with the current levels of excitation ?
Thanks tautech
we really want to implement this feature, but to be honest, it's another feature need balanced.
sometimes, we would use these LCR tweezers to measure PCBA components, such as the cap on the power rail, which would git rid of the influence of the internal equivalent diode of IC. So if auto mode select the diode mode, the result would be the diode forward voltage
the test method for the diode is a DC current excitation, in principle, we could use DC current to test the DUT and justify it's a diode or not, and if not, we use AC excitation signal to test the L/C/R.
but there are some bad case need to process
1. A diode parallels with a large-cap, it would cost much time to charge this cap firstly, and then to justify this is a diode or not.
2. if the DUT is an MLCC, the DC voltage would have an influence on the cap value
3. High forward voltage diode such as LED would lead to more uncertainty for the test mode. :palm:
at least, we will try to optimize the hotkey sequence to make diode mode is easy to be selected
Sure, we will add the forward current information for the diode test ;)
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Looking good, you are the artists!
I only noticed one bug: "Cancel" only has one L (not CANCELL, but CANCEL)
Too early to demo the Beep on Capture in the Hold function?
Thanks SilverSolder
we will modify the CANCELL definitlly. :palm:
For the beep on capture in the hold function is too early, I'm a little confused about your comments.
We have implemented a simple hold function at present, the value would hold when the tips leaving DUT as the video shows, and it shows the stable value before leaving DUT. Test speed of these tweezers is much faster than the other, so the user experience is not bad.
more smart processing method as you said, we have recorded this function and would consider about that ;D
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nice !
just the esr values when you measure capacitors seems odd to me ?
Thanks for your thumbs up. :D
You mean the Rs or the Rp value is not stable or not correct, when measuring the caps? could you give me more details, I will try to analyze the result.
One screenshot attached, the test mode is 10nF cap serial 10k res, which shows the high accurate test result.
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Thanks you for the video!
I have some questions and suggestions:
1. By measuring the resistances, everything is fine, only you did not show the closure of the test contacts to each other and the stability of the zero readings on the display? I would also like to see the calibration process?
2. I showed on the photo 1 place where the unit of measurement of reactance is indicated not completely "m", "G". This is clear to me, but may not be very clear to another user. I understand that there is not enough space on the display to accommodate all the information, so I suggest slightly reducing the size of the beep icon. You can simply display the speaker icon when the sound is on and the strikethrough icon when the sound is disabled.
3. I showed in photo 2 the moment that when measuring a capacitance of less than 1 μF, it is desirable to output not Rs, but an important secondary parameter D. The Rs parameter is usually shown when measuring a capacitance of more than 1 μF.
4. I showed in photo 3 that when measuring the inductance, they show the secondary parameter Q if the Q-factor of the coil is more than 1 and show the parameter Rs if the Q-factor of the coil is <1. I am also sure that the test frequency of 10 kHz will not be enough for stable measurement of small values of inductance. This will require a frequency of 50-100 kHz.
This is just my opinion, I do not insist on 100% certainty. :)
[/quote]
Thanks a lot for your suggestion! :D
1. Cal process support selfcal/open/short calibration, as the first attached
2. Thanks a lot for your suggestion, we will try to modify that
3/4. D/Q mode is supported, which need go to measure menu and select R mode or Q/D mode, as 2 and 3 attached, 50k-100kHz is our next goal, which needs more support, we focus on the 10kHz on this version ;)
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Del
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Looking good, you are the artists!
I only noticed one bug: "Cancel" only has one L (not CANCELL, but CANCEL)
Too early to demo the Beep on Capture in the Hold function?
Thanks SilverSolder
we will modify the CANCELL definitlly. :palm:
For the beep on capture in the hold function is too early, I'm a little confused about your comments.
We have implemented a simple hold function at present, the value would hold when the tips leaving DUT as the video shows, and it shows the stable value before leaving DUT. Test speed of these tweezers is much faster than the other, so the user experience is not bad.
more smart processing method as you said, we have recorded this function and would consider about that ;D
I am not one to make the "perfect" the enemy of the "good", the hold function is already much better than anything else I've seen.
Given how the readings can wander up and down while probing, it may be better the way you have done it (i.e. leave it to the user to determine when a reading is valid, by "letting go" of the component)
Keep up the nice work, this is looking good, including the work you have done on making the tweezer stable and accurate mechanically - I agree, the cheaper testers can be a little difficult to use for manipulating small parts (even if they work fine on component that are soldered in a circuit).
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Looking good, you are the artists!
I only noticed one bug: "Cancel" only has one L (not CANCELL, but CANCEL)
Too early to demo the Beep on Capture in the Hold function?
Thanks SilverSolder
we will modify the CANCELL definitlly. :palm:
For the beep on capture in the hold function is too early, I'm a little confused about your comments.
We have implemented a simple hold function at present, the value would hold when the tips leaving DUT as the video shows, and it shows the stable value before leaving DUT. Test speed of these tweezers is much faster than the other, so the user experience is not bad.
more smart processing method as you said, we have recorded this function and would consider about that ;D
I am not one to make the "perfect" the enemy of the "good", the hold function is already much better than anything else I've seen.
Given how the readings can wander up and down while probing, it may be better the way you have done it (i.e. leave it to the user to determine when a reading is valid, by "letting go" of the component)
Keep up the nice work, this is looking good, including the work you have done on making the tweezer stable and accurate mechanically - I agree, the cheaper testers can be a little difficult to use for manipulating small parts (even if they work fine on component that are soldered in a circuit).
Thank you very much for your encouragement
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3/4. D/Q mode is supported, which need go to measure menu and select R mode or Q/D mode, as 2 and 3 attached
@Shannon, I would like to see these parameters not through menu selection, but in automatic mode, which you demonstrated. ;)
THANKS A LOT FOR YOUR REMIND.
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Del
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Shannon [/ b], I'm sure you will show all these modes in the next video? :)
HaHa, not yet, sorry about that, a new video is ready
Cap Measurement Noise performance video
The screen measurement data update rate is 2 samples per second, which is much faster than the other high precision SMD testers, and there are about 100 samples record for 5pF cap measurement, 6fF peak to peak noise performance
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyM7_HZJ4K0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TyM7_HZJ4K0)
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Del
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Can we get the measuring voltage down to 100mV? That is a Yuuuuuge feature of the Mastech, that makes it possible to measure things in-circuit without triggering any silicon junctions.
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Looking good ! :clap:
Can you make it sense a diode in Auto mode so to not have to select Diode mode ?
There also seems room on the display to place a Vf diode measurement, can we do that with the current levels of excitation ?
Thanks tautech
we really want to implement this feature, but to be honest, it's another feature need balanced.
sometimes, we would use these LCR tweezers to measure PCBA components, such as the cap on the power rail, which would git rid of the influence of the internal equivalent diode of IC. So if auto mode select the diode mode, the result would be the diode forward voltage
the test method for the diode is a DC current excitation, in principle, we could use DC current to test the DUT and justify it's a diode or not, and if not, we use AC excitation signal to test the L/C/R.
but there are some bad case need to process
1. A diode parallels with a large-cap, it would cost much time to charge this cap firstly, and then to justify this is a diode or not.
2. if the DUT is an MLCC, the DC voltage would have an influence on the cap value
3. High forward voltage diode such as LED would lead to more uncertainty for the test mode. :palm:
at least, we will try to optimize the hotkey sequence to make diode mode is easy to be selected
Sure, we will add the forward current information for the diode test ;)
Yes some things are difficult in Auto mode......however if we need more detail we can use a Diode mode.
I look forward to your solutions. :)
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Can we get the measuring voltage down to 100mV? That is a Yuuuuuge feature of the Mastech, that makes it possible to measure things in-circuit without triggering any silicon junctions.
We think so, and try to add this option
the spec announcement is a problem for this option in the datasheet
BTW, I found the number of visits to the video is quite small, do you have any idea about how to make more guys know about this design :palm:
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Cap Measurement Noise performance video
The screen measurement data update rate is 2 samples per second, which is much faster than the other high precision SMD testers, and there are about 100 samples record for 5pF cap measurement
[video link]
Very good and much better than my 2007 ST3. :-+
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Some questions: in the video, in "hold" mode seem that the "beep" is played when there isn't anymore contact with the component. Isn't better that is played when there is a stable reading? Or maybe it's the video a bit off sync?
The plastics of the case, doesn't deteriorate due to the constant bending? Of what material is made?
In any case, seem a really valid product :-+
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Some questions: in the video, in "hold" mode seem that the "beep" is played when there isn't anymore contact with the component. Isn't better that is played when there is a stable reading? Or maybe it's the video a bit off sync?
The plastics of the case, doesn't deteriorate due to the constant bending? Of what material is made?
In any case, seem a really valid product :-+
Thanks masterx81 ;D
As I discussed with Silversolder, hold function is checking the “letting go” moment at present, after the tips leaving DUT, the screen would display the stable value which is measured before leaving, so the beep would be late, I guess this is the problem, and I will double check the code and the influence of video cut operation
For the plastic case for the arms, it would use ABS case, we do find some LCR tweezers arm plastic case is broken, the cause is tweezers arm is not hard enough, user bend the arm to make tips align, after many times bending, the arm case is broken, and tweezers’ arm are soft and bent, the tips are never aligned again
For this tweezers’ arm, we have tried many different materials to make mechanical design much more stable, every testing has few influence on the arms’ shape change, and the arm case would be safety
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Cap Measurement Noise performance video
The screen measurement data update rate is 2 samples per second, which is much faster than the other high precision SMD testers, and there are about 100 samples record for 5pF cap measurement
[video link]
Very good and much better than my 2007 ST3. :-+
Thanks tautech
BTW, Do you have any idea to make more guys know about this tweezers?
The number of visitors for the video is quite small :palm:
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BTW, Do you have any idea to make more guys know about this tweezers?
Patience my friend the word is slowly spreading. ;)
We need product not just videos and you said you plan to implement firmware updates hopefully by USB.
Get the HW right and most of the features polished and later USB updates working and enable the kickstarter and the support will come.
If your product is better than others do not be afraid to show how in tables and videos.
Remember if you had that existing product and a competitor started they would not be afraid to walk on you to get their product out. Simple side by side tests will show their/your product for what it is.
Good luck, you know I am behind you with interest in a small order.
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Del
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Some questions: in the video, in "hold" mode seem that the "beep" is played when there isn't anymore contact with the component. Isn't better that is played when there is a stable reading? Or maybe it's the video a bit off sync?
As I discussed with Silversolder, hold function is checking the “letting go” moment at present, after the tips leaving DUT, the screen would display the stable value which is measured before leaving, so the beep would be late,
For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:
1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.
Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
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BTW, Do you have any idea to make more guys know about this tweezers?
When you have polished and adjusted all the functions and ideas that were proposed, then send some test samples to people who can objectively test(compare) your tweezers against other similar devices. Such people will also be able to make a detailed review of your product as well as post it on the most popular technical Internet resources.
For example, I can help with advertising among the Russian-speaking population. :D
Thanks indman,
Is the English interface unfriendly for Russian-speaking people? I found many local Russian projects using Russian as the main language.
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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:
1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.
Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
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Some questions: in the video, in "hold" mode seem that the "beep" is played when there isn't anymore contact with the component. Isn't better that is played when there is a stable reading? Or maybe it's the video a bit off sync?
As I discussed with Silversolder, hold function is checking the “letting go” moment at present, after the tips leaving DUT, the screen would display the stable value which is measured before leaving, so the beep would be late,
For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:
1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.
Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
Thanks Zlotnik
Sounds good, it's another solution, and the processing logic is simple and direct, There's just a little bit of uncertainty, if the measurement result at delay "T" is unfortunate not stable or not accurate, the user needs to test it again.
we will test this processing method, and comparing those different ways to select the better one, the Beep notice gives user confidence, which may make users feel better
These tweezers have recorded the last settings, such as test mode, so it would be the same setting at next time waking up.
And the key push down is "QUICKSET" and push down is "AUTONOW", and push down again, it would be automode
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Del
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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:
1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.
Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
Thanks masterx81,
you have the same idea with SilverSolder, and it's not hard to implement, the only concern is one sample would cost 0.5 seconds, and 5 samples would cost 2.5s, is it too long for one test ???
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Thanks indman,
Is the English interface unfriendly for Russian-speaking people? I found many local Russian projects using Russian as the main language.
The English language should not present any difficulty in understanding for technically literate people! However, if you have enough free memory in the processor, then Russian language support would expand the number of possible tweezers buyers. If you have difficulties translating menus and items into Russian, I could help you with this. :)
Thanks indman,
we may consider that if we got many language requirements after massive production ;)
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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:
1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.
Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
Thanks masterx81,
you have the same idea with SilverSolder, and it's not hard to implement, the only concern is one sample would cost 0.5 seconds, and 5 samples would cost 2.5s, is it too long for one test ???
When you are bent over your desk, concentrating on a small PCB with tiny parts - perhaps while wearing magnifying visors or looking through a microscope etc - you REALLY don't want to have to be looking at the display of the tweezers while you are working, to "babysit" the tweezers and help it figure out when it has a stable reading.
Much better that you just concentrate on holding the tweezers steady on the component (i.e. you are looking at the component, not the display!), and wait for the small BEEP to tell you that the MCU has done the work of figuring out when the reading is stable, without you having to look at it.
It is a killer feature... all you have to do is keep sampling until you have a stable reading. If the user doesn't let go after the beep, keep on reading until the next beep time, and use 2x the time to do the math, and so on. In other words, the more beeps the user holds it on for, the higher the reading quality. - kind of makes sense!
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The device only update the screen every 0.5s, or get an analog reading every 0.5s?
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Regarding the menu: It can probably get quite wide and deep, if you pile in enough killer features in this product.
Digital cameras have the same problem, hundreds of advanced menu items that different photographers/artists use in different circumstances, depending on their art.
How about doing what some cameras do: allow the user to select a few favourite menu items and have them displayed at the top level? That way, the fact that there is only one button (joystick) on the device would not be a painful experience for daily use, where the owner normally only uses a handful of items in the menu (but each user can have a different handful!).
-
For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:
1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.
Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
Thanks masterx81,
you have the same idea with SilverSolder, and it's not hard to implement, the only concern is one sample would cost 0.5 seconds, and 5 samples would cost 2.5s, is it too long for one test ???
When you are bent over your desk, concentrating on a small PCB with tiny parts - perhaps while wearing magnifying visors or looking through a microscope etc - you REALLY don't want to have to be looking at the display of the tweezers while you are working, to "babysit" the tweezers and help it figure out when it has a stable reading.
Much better that you just concentrate on holding the tweezers steady on the component (i.e. you are looking at the component, not the display!), and wait for the small BEEP to tell you that the MCU has done the work of figuring out when the reading is stable, without you having to look at it.
It is a killer feature... all you have to do is keep sampling until you have a stable reading. If the user doesn't let go after the beep, keep on reading until the next beep time, and use 2x the time to do the math, and so on. In other words, the more beeps the user holds it on for, the higher the reading quality. - kind of makes sense!
haha, sounds great
the Hold function could use the average processing to get a better result, because the users could accept longer settling time for a more stable result.
We will try to implement this killer feature
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The device only update the screen every 0.5s, or get an analog reading every 0.5s?
the measurement result updates every 0.5s ;)
the screen update rate is very fast, we can't feel that
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Regarding the menu: It can probably get quite wide and deep, if you pile in enough killer features in this product.
Digital cameras have the same problem, hundreds of advanced menu items that different photographers/artists use in different circumstances, depending on their art.
How about doing what some cameras do: allow the user to select a few favourite menu items and have them displayed at the top level? That way, the fact that there is only one button (joystick) on the device would not be a painful experience for daily use, where the owner normally only uses a handful of items in the menu (but each user can have a different handful!).
We have set the first option of the menu as "QUICKSET", which includes the most commonly used functions, such as the first one is "AUTO" mode selection, and the second one is second parameter mode, R or D/Q
as you mentioned, Digital cameras have the same problem, most of the users prefer automode :palm:
so the default mode of tweezers is auto mode.
A user-defined menu sounds great, but a little bit complicated for such a small instrument, we may post the menu plan to make you know about those details, all the functions would be exposed by the menu list ;)
These tweezers will support firmware updating by USB, if there are some guys have similar requirements as you said, we will consider the implementation of this function.
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Regarding the menu: It can probably get quite wide and deep, if you pile in enough killer features in this product.
Digital cameras have the same problem, hundreds of advanced menu items that different photographers/artists use in different circumstances, depending on their art.
How about doing what some cameras do: allow the user to select a few favourite menu items and have them displayed at the top level? That way, the fact that there is only one button (joystick) on the device would not be a painful experience for daily use, where the owner normally only uses a handful of items in the menu (but each user can have a different handful!).
We have set the first option of the menu as "QUICKSET", which includes the most commonly used functions, such as the first one is "AUTO" mode selection, and the second one is second parameter mode, R or D/Q
as you mentioned, Digital cameras have the same problem, most of the users prefer automode :palm:
so the default mode of tweezers is auto mode.
A user-defined menu sounds great, but a little bit complicated for such a small instrument, we may post the menu plan to make you know about those details, all the functions would be exposed by the menu list ;)
These tweezers will support firmware updating by USB, if there are some guys have similar requirements as you said, we will consider the implementation of this function.
A printed "menu tree" would be a great help. I had the same problem with an old Laserjet printer - until I found that - cleverly - it can print its menu tree out from the control
panel! - Sadly it used 8 pages of paper to do that, which would then have to be glued together to make any sense... LOL! :D
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For the hold function, my preferred operation would be:
1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
It would be good to have the delay configurable and to be able activate/deactivate the hold mode.
Speaking of configuration, it would be good to remember the last setting when the tweezers wake up, but to also have a very simple way to go back to a (configurable?) default. Maybe a long press of the button gives a pop-up with "save state as new default (left), revert to default (right)".
This way the tweezers are always in the state you expect them to be in.
I think that would be better to stop the reading and do a beep not after a fixed delay, but after are taken some (3~5) samples within a certain % tollerance.
Thanks masterx81,
you have the same idea with SilverSolder, and it's not hard to implement, the only concern is one sample would cost 0.5 seconds, and 5 samples would cost 2.5s, is it too long for one test ???
When you are bent over your desk, concentrating on a small PCB with tiny parts - perhaps while wearing magnifying visors or looking through a microscope etc - you REALLY don't want to have to be looking at the display of the tweezers while you are working, to "babysit" the tweezers and help it figure out when it has a stable reading.
Much better that you just concentrate on holding the tweezers steady on the component (i.e. you are looking at the component, not the display!), and wait for the small BEEP to tell you that the MCU has done the work of figuring out when the reading is stable, without you having to look at it.
It is a killer feature... all you have to do is keep sampling until you have a stable reading. If the user doesn't let go after the beep, keep on reading until the next beep time, and use 2x the time to do the math, and so on. In other words, the more beeps the user holds it on for, the higher the reading quality. - kind of makes sense!
haha, sounds great
the Hold function could use the average processing to get a better result, because the users could accept longer settling time for a more stable result.
We will try to implement this killer feature
Yes. There is always a trade-off between "Fast but not so precise" and "Precise but not so fast". If the user can control that by simply holding the tweezers to the part longer, it would be superior! Just keep sending those beeps, and the user will know to let go right after one of them - however many they want! :D
I do appreciate that even a smart programmer would be challenged to implement this function in a way that works reliably. But if you did, I think it would soon get a reputation of being the best tool of its type, worth spending a little more for than the cheapest ones.
Not having to look at the display while working with it, is YUUUUUGE! :D
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Regarding the menu: It can probably get quite wide and deep, if you pile in enough killer features in this product.
Digital cameras have the same problem, hundreds of advanced menu items that different photographers/artists use in different circumstances, depending on their art.
How about doing what some cameras do: allow the user to select a few favourite menu items and have them displayed at the top level? That way, the fact that there is only one button (joystick) on the device would not be a painful experience for daily use, where the owner normally only uses a handful of items in the menu (but each user can have a different handful!).
We have set the first option of the menu as "QUICKSET", which includes the most commonly used functions, such as the first one is "AUTO" mode selection, and the second one is second parameter mode, R or D/Q
as you mentioned, Digital cameras have the same problem, most of the users prefer automode :palm:
so the default mode of tweezers is auto mode.
A user-defined menu sounds great, but a little bit complicated for such a small instrument, we may post the menu plan to make you know about those details, all the functions would be exposed by the menu list ;)
These tweezers will support firmware updating by USB, if there are some guys have similar requirements as you said, we will consider the implementation of this function.
A printed "menu tree" would be a great help. I had the same problem with an old Laserjet printer - until I found that - cleverly - it can print its menu tree out from the control
panel! - Sadly it used 8 pages of paper to do that, which would then have to be glued together to make any sense... LOL! :D
Yes, the menu tree is what we want to show ;)
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Hi Shannon,
1) Touch DUT with tweezers.
2) Tweezers register transition from open input to DUT and begin measuring. Measurements are displayed and updated live.
3) Hold contact to DUT for a bit. Screen is updating all the while.
4) Tweezers beep after delay T
5) Tweezers stop live display of measurements and display hold-value. (Eg median between start of "stable" values and time of beep)
6) Remove tweezers from DUT. Tweezers measure open, but continue to display hold-value on screen.
7) Operator reads tweezers at their leisure
7) Start next measurement by going to step 1)
Sounds good, it's another solution, and the processing logic is simple and direct, There's just a little bit of uncertainty, if the measurement result at delay "T" is unfortunate not stable or not accurate, the user needs to test it again.
we will test this processing method, and comparing those different ways to select the better one, the Beep notice gives user confidence, which may make users feel better
The point is not so much the delay. It's perfectly fine if it's not a fixed it configurable delay, but the tweezers determine themselves when the result is stable. Also it's not so much about there being a beep to give the user confidence.
According to the video, your current hold mode implementation live-updates until the user releases the tweezers, and then displays the hold-value.
This means the user has to look at the screen to determine when the measured value is stable, and the tweezers can be released. At that point, the user doesn't really need the hold function anymore. They've anyway had to look away from the DUT, seen the value on the display, and can just as well remember the value themselves.
Instead, the tweezers should determine when the value is stable and give audible, not visible, feedback that the user can release the grip.
This is the killer feature aspect of value hold that so many manufacturers don't get: Confident eyes-away operation.
The rest of my outlined function is just icing. Configurable delay or auto-detection? Whatever works.
Not live-updating after the hold-beep? Just one beep instead of beeping again and again?
Just there to give one consistent simple behaviour:
beep=done
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Exactly. Having to take your eyes off what you are probing is a huge minus with all existing tweezers. Nobody has yet understood how important it is to be able to get a reading without looking while you are doing it!
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Exactly. Having to take your eyes off what you are probing is a huge minus with all existing tweezers. Nobody has yet understood how important it is to be able to get a reading without looking while you are doing it!
Thanks Zlotnik and SilverSolder
Advanced Hold function is coming ;)
And present video is on the way
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Sorry...new to this thread and too lazy to read through it...
ARE these for sale somewhere? I've been looking at this sort of product for a while now and deliberately held off.
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no, not yet, please join the queue :P
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no, not yet, please join the queue :P
I've looked and looked at LCR tweezers and the good ones are expensive and the cheap ones are garbage and not much in between.
Queueing...
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Oh, the Mastech MS8911 aren't half bad and won't cost an arm and a leg. Although they do seem to be in short supply these days.
But I'm also queueing... if Shannon and company take up the input we've given here and pull off the performance and price they target, this will be one nice set of LCR tweezers. The hold feature alone cold be worth it, and the accuracy can come in handy as well.
BTW: @Shannon, any updates?
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Oh, the Mastech MS8911 aren't half bad and won't cost an arm and a leg. Although they do seem to be in short supply these days.
But I'm also queueing... if Shannon and company take up the input we've given here and pull off the performance and price they target, this will be one nice set of LCR tweezers. The hold feature alone cold be worth it, and the accuracy can come in handy as well.
BTW: @Shannon, any updates?
These LCR tweezers look promising. I think I'll hold off til they become available. I have a Hantek bench LCR meter it does most things I need. LCR tweezers have a really nice use case that puts it all in your hands in a compact form factor.
There is supposedly a kickstarter campaign for them, but I failed to find it. Any ideas?
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As far as I know there is no Kickstarter yet, or anything else beyond this thread.
The queuing is all metaphoric, not pre-orders or anything. So yes, I (and probably all of us here) hold back till the tweezers materialise and Shannon et al. can show what they've accomplished. I was merely expressing that LCR tweezers with the features I and others outlined in this thread, and the quality, accuracy and price Shannon aims for, would be something I could find attractive enough to get in addition to my MS8911.
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The MS8911 is a good effort by Mastech and worth having. It will likely fetch a good used price on eBay too, as its reputation grows, if you ever want to replace it in future.
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hello fubgumfaw,
very thanks for your interest.
After we got some feedback and great ideas, we focus on polishing these LCR tweezers again, and sorry about much late reply.
Some guys have concerns about the stability and production quality, so we are trying to collect much more test results to show its advantages.
we are doing temperature cycle tests for these tweezers, and it shows awesome stability, we are designing a serious product, not just a DIY suite.
on the other side, we have engaged with a mold company, the professional ABS enclosure is under manufacturing.
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To be honest, the reputation spread slowly than we expected at this stage, as tautech said, one point is people care about the products, not only a prototype or demo, so we decide to calm down to polishing this design and pay much more attention to make it real with wonderful performance first.
If you have some other ideas, please let me know. such as if you want to get the tweezers earlier, to be the early bird than Kickstarter's early bird without pre-pay, and we definitely will offer a discount, even though we still don't know how to make this deal come true, maybe eBay is a choice?
Temperature stability performance is coming soon. ;)
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If you have some other ideas, please let me know. such as if you want to get the tweezers earlier, to be the early bird than Kickstarter's early bird without pre-pay, and we definitely will offer a discount, even though we still don't know how to make this deal come true, maybe eBay is a choice?
Why not just here on the forum and the KS platform to start with ?
For sure you need the initial investment before you can even think about going global.
You can edit the thread name and post #1 to add links to the KS and/or some sales website or add the website to your profile.
When deep in a project like yours sometimes the obvious is overlooked. ;)
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Great project!!! Thank you for sharing.
+1 for Kickstarter campaign
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haha, thanks tautech
forgive my engineer's habit, focus on those design details, and we think KS will come soon ;)
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With the efforts in a period of time, we did many optimizations and conduct temperature cycles experiment for these LCR tweezers, fortunately, the test result is super good in the end, our efforts are not wasted.
The test result of the one random sample is 4ppm/℃, from 5 to 55 degrees Celsius, and the test condition is 1Vpp 10kHz excitation signal.
test results are attached.
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0.1Vpp excitation signal mode is ready
1kohm precision resistor and 5pf Cap test result attached, as always, super-accurate >:D
Test video would publish later
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hello great product. i was looking for such tweezers for a long time.....
One Suggestion, can u make it available on AliExp/banggood too?
in our part of the world we can only order form these sites only....
regards
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This is looking more and more exciting!
When plugged into a USB port on a PC, is it able to spit out the measurements over a virtual serial port or something like that? - this would be enormously helpful in some scenarios, and open the possibility for some cool supporting apps (e.g. text to speech voice readout, display on a headset a la Goggle Glass, binning components with running statistics, that kind of thing).
If you use the virtual serial port method instead of some crazy proprietary scheme like most manufacturers do nowadays, people may develop their own apps for it as well - making it even more cool and a "must have" accessory!
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Del
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This is looking more and more exciting!
When plugged into a USB port on a PC, is it able to spit out the measurements over a virtual serial port or something like that? -
The answer is “YES”!
Wait a moment, we will show something special ;)
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One Suggestion, can u make it available on AliExp/banggood too?
The answer is “YES” as well.
If your requirements are not too hard to achieve, the answer will always be “YES”!
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then it will be a sure buy from me :-+ :-+ :-DMM
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It’s not easy to find a standard inductor. Fortunately, the test results are as good as ever.
Attached image shows the standard 10mH inductor test result.
As indman suggested, we add the unit for the second parameter
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Any idea of when this device will be available (for anyone) ? thanks.
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Del
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It's a very nice product with ultimate fancy usb Type-C which is absolutely great !!! :-+
The only things i personally don't like it's the super tiny screen which instead should be the one like this on uRLC Tweezers https://oldgerman.github.io/845419ff/
and the last thing which i do really missing on a tool like this is the possibility to use the
Curve tracer for measure and compare components on circuit boards https://hackaday.io/project/16704-microcontroller-based-curve-tracer
However these tweezers it's supposed to be 4 kelvin or it's just a simple 2 wire probes?
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Any idea of when this device will be available (for anyone) ? thanks.
Hi kripton2035, thanks for your reply
The first batch of samples is expected to be finished in about one month, and Kickstarter will also start
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Attached image shows the standard 10mH inductor test result.
This is good, thank you! But I'm more interested in how confidently and consistently your tweezers will measure very small SMD inductors, for example, 10-100nH? ;)
Hello indman,
I know your trick ;) we are profesional guys
And 100kHz excitation signal would be implement in the next generation tweezers
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Del
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It's a very nice product with ultimate fancy usb Type-C which is absolutely great !!! :-+
The only things i personally don't like it's the super tiny screen which instead should be the one like this on uRLC Tweezers https://oldgerman.github.io/845419ff/
and the last thing which i do really missing on a tool like this is the possibility to use the
Curve tracer for measure and compare components on circuit boards https://hackaday.io/project/16704-microcontroller-based-curve-tracer
However these tweezers it's supposed to be 4 kelvin or it's just a simple 2 wire probes?
Next Generation tweezers will integrated a large screen with 100kHz excitaion signal ;)
Curve tracer is a good way to show the component's characteristic, but we may encounter some issue to use Curve tracer to measure those components on PCBA
To be honest, these tweezers use pseudo 4 kelvin, which means every tip connect to a Force wire and a Sense wire, it's not easy to design a tweezers' tip which could implement fully 4 kevin, we have consider about the implementation details, and may pay more attention to this feature in next generation.
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I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...
It would be excellent if it could discriminate between SMD components in the E48 series (2% tolerance).
Getting it reliable for discriminating between E96 values (1% tolerance) would be outright amazing!
Which leads me to another possible feature request: Let the user choose the tolerance (E series) that the tweezer is measuring? This way, if the user has chosen E12, the tweezer can show the nearest component value extremely fast. If user instead chooses E96, it will take longer to measure to that precision. See what I mean?
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I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...
Yet my 2007 ST3 have 4 wire and way back then I can't see why design wouldn't include it if accuracy with 2 wire was sufficient.
Since I joined here in 2013 I've rabbited on how good SMD tweezers are and for good reason. Mine still get more use than a DMM especially for the ESR feature when checking caps....and mostly through hole ones !
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I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...
Yet my 2007 ST3 have 4 wire and way back then I can't see why design wouldn't include it if accuracy with 2 wire was sufficient.
Since I joined here in 2013 I've rabbited on how good SMD tweezers are and for good reason. Mine still get more use than a DMM especially for the ESR feature when checking caps....and mostly through hole ones !
But can tweezers ever be 'real' 4 wire, in the sense that the excitation current contacting surfaces are separate from the voltage measurement contact surfaces? That would take some serious micro-engineering! :D
Per spec sheets, the HP34401a DMM is good to 0.1% with just two wires. Are tweezers really going to do better than 0.1% ?
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I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...
Yet my 2007 ST3 have 4 wire and way back then I can't see why design wouldn't include it if accuracy with 2 wire was sufficient.
Since I joined here in 2013 I've rabbited on how good SMD tweezers are and for good reason. Mine still get more use than a DMM especially for the ESR feature when checking caps....and mostly through hole ones !
But can tweezers ever be 'real' 4 wire, in the sense that the excitation current contacting surfaces are separate from the voltage measurement contact surfaces? That would take some serious micro-engineering! :D
No of course they can't so the 4 wire is just into the legs of the tweezers not to the tips.
If it was deemed necessary one of the tweezer manufacturers would have done it by now.
Per spec sheets, the HP34401a DMM is good to 0.1% with just two wires. Are tweezers really going to do better than 0.1% ?
Well you can't get all that circuitry and the stability it offers into a tweezers form factor and if you need metrological grade measurements SDM tweezers are not the correct tool.
Shannon and Co's results already look pretty good and I for one am keen to get my hands on their creation. :popcorn:
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I'm not totally convinced that 4-wire measurements solves any real world problem on a set of hand tweezers...
4-wire tweezers' tip is really a headache micro mechanical design, so we didn't pay much attention on this idea.
For the meaning of 4-wire measurement, the main purpose is to eliminate the influence of contact resistance, generally, it's less than 20mohm, so if the accuracy goal is 0.1%, and then the absolute value of DUT should large than 20ohm, which would not introduce apparent errors, and could cover most of the application cases.
For the absolute value of DUT is less than 20ohm, that's another story, just like indman comment, how about the test result of 10-100nH?
In the future, if the 4-wire tip is too hard to manufacturing, a compatible 4-wire test suit may be considered ;)
Which leads me to another possible feature request: Let the user choose the tolerance (E series) that the tweezer is measuring? This way, if the user has chosen E12, the tweezer can show the nearest component value extremely fast. If user instead chooses E96, it will take longer to measure to that precision. See what I mean?
Yes, I can understand what you want, these tweezers' display update rate is 0.5Hz, which is much higher than other LCR tweezers, and we can get a really good result in such a short measure cycle, for the higher accuracy requirement, we can add this feature ;D
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... so I've been sorting through a gazillion passives these days, and frankly was annoyed by my trusty MS8911. You can use it for 0402, but it's no fun, if you have to do it all day long. Like, at all. Feels like wearing oven mitts...
Plus I [swear] there's a range around a few hundred pF where they're simply out of spec. No idea why, they seem fine below and above. I lost a lot of time cross-checking against another instrument. Again, not fun when you're just never sure if it's the DUT that's out of spec or the instrument.
Which is all a long winded way to say:
@Shannon, any progress?
If your tweezers end up being half as good mechanically and accuracy-wise as you plan, "shut up and take my money" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OnB1TgxgwEA) already!
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... so I've been sorting through a gazillion passives these days, and frankly was annoyed by my trusty MS8911. You can use it for 0402, but it's no fun, if you have to do it all day long. Like, at all. Feels like wearing oven mitts...
Plus I [swear] there's a range around a few hundred pF where they're simply out of spec. No idea why, they seem fine below and above. I lost a lot of time cross-checking against another instrument. Again, not fun when you're just never sure if it's the DUT that's out of spec or the instrument.
Which is all a long winded way to say:
@Shannon, any progress?
If your tweezers end up being half as good mechanically and accuracy-wise as you plan, "shut up and take my money" (https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=OnB1TgxgwEA) already!
:-DD
the good news is the ABS housing will deliver one or two weeks later, which means the biggest uncertain processing will be under control.
And KS is preparing now.
thanks a lot for your support, it's hard for me to show my appreciate, shut up is a good choice for me. ;D
I believe our tweezers are total different level products.
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Thanks, Shannon, for the update. Can't wait :-)
BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...
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Thanks, Shannon, for the update. Can't wait :-)
BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...
well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.
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I am so looking forward to trying these...
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BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...
well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.
So is it like this now?
1) touch tweezers to DUT, previous hold-value erased
2) tweezers beep once measurement is stable and hold-value is saved
3) release tweezers from DUT
4) read hold-value
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That is what I was imagining, at least... being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...
OMG when can I have it...
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That is what I was imagining, at least... being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...
OMG when can I have it...
Wait in line ! :P
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BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...
well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.
So is it like this now?
1) touch tweezers to DUT, previous hold-value erased
2) tweezers beep once measurement is stable and hold-value is saved
3) release tweezers from DUT
4) read hold-value
Right! ;D
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That is what I was imagining, at least... being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...
OMG when can I have it...
Wait in line ! :P
You all will be the early early birds ;)
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BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...
well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.
So is it like this now?
1) touch tweezers to DUT, previous hold-value erased
2) tweezers beep once measurement is stable and hold-value is saved
3) release tweezers from DUT
4) read hold-value
Right! ;D
Ouuu, great!
If you pull off to combine usability on that level, accuracy as good as mentioned above, and the "premium tweezers" feel you described, it sounds like you have a winner at your hands.
Will the firmware be open source / hackable?
That is what I was imagining, at least... being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...
OMG when can I have it...
Wait in line ! :P
You all will be the early early birds ;)
Tweet tweet, lol.
What do you have in mind for early bird access in the end? A head start on the early bird perks of your Kickstarter, or a flat out buy-a-prototype deal bypassing the Kickstarter campaign like mentioned earlier?
I really look forward to giving them a spin :)
(And it most certainly sounds like I'm not alone, lol)
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BTW, how did you decide to implement the auto-hold in the end? A really good auto-hold function was another thing that would have come in handy for what I was doing...
well, we accept SilverSolder's advice, when the tweezers find a stable value, the buzzer will beep, and at the same time, H symbol will change on the screen. if you still hold the tweezers' tips on the DUT, the buzzer would inform you of the stable result.
So is it like this now?
1) touch tweezers to DUT, previous hold-value erased
2) tweezers beep once measurement is stable and hold-value is saved
3) release tweezers from DUT
4) read hold-value
Right! ;D
Will the firmware be open source / hackable?
well, there will be some level hackable for electronics enthusiasts, I guess you could add some wireless module for these tweezers.
actually, we didn't plan to publish this message so earlier.
And the firmware is not open source and hackable, in this stage ;).
That is what I was imagining, at least... being able to measure a tiny component, hear when it is "done", and only then take my eyes off it to look at the screen...
OMG when can I have it...
Wait in line ! :P
You all will be the early early birds ;)
Tweet tweet, lol.
What do you have in mind for early bird access in the end? A head start on the early bird perks of your Kickstarter, or a flat out buy-a-prototype deal bypassing the Kickstarter campaign like mentioned earlier?
I really look forward to giving them a spin :)
(And it most certainly sounds like I'm not alone, lol)
a buy-a-prototype deal bypassing the Kickstarter campaign may be convenient for us.
There must be a discount, such as free for those guys who contributed to these tweezers as I mentioned before.
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as my post seems to have vanished in yesterday's forum crash, here it is again:
I'm interested in a buy-a-prototype-before-kickstarter procedure
please tell us your price (in PM ?)
thanks.
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as my post seems to have vanished in yesterday's forum crash, here it is again:
I'm interested in a buy-a-prototype-before-kickstarter procedure
please tell us your price (in PM ?)
thanks.
Hi kripton2035,
Thanks a lot for your support.
For the price, we didn't make the decision right now, but it will definitely have a higher cost performance than the end product.
And in order to deliver high quality to you, we plan to tell the guys who interested after we got the small volume products. ^-^
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Next Generation tweezers will integrated a large screen with 100kHz excitaion signal ;)
Interesting, any more info you can give on that? How much larger of a screen? What other differences in size/weight/cost?
As I've stated earlier in this thread, I'm interested in a pair of tweezer indeed. However, now that I know you already plan a better version... well :popcorn:
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Next Generation tweezers will integrated a large screen with 100kHz excitaion signal ;)
Interesting, any more info you can give on that? How much larger of a screen? What other differences in size/weight/cost?
As I've stated earlier in this thread, I'm interested in a pair of tweezer indeed. However, now that I know you already plan a better version... well :popcorn:
Hi toli,
the plan is the screen will choose 0.96inch OLED to replace the 0.91inch OLED, the size and weight are similar, and the cost is TBD, but we can promise, there is no doubt that the cost performance will be the best as well.
The main headache point is the time is limited, we didn't have any other time to develop the 100kHz one, so the delivery time is TBD in this stage :palm:
Sounds like lip-service :palm:
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The screen size difference sounds like a nice addition, but not something that I would render game changer and prevent me from sticking to the current model.
I assume this 100KHz option would be using different HW as well, so no way to update it if we have the first batch of devices, right?
BTW, do you have any picture of the final case? I might have missed it, but I think all the pictures so far were with a 3D printed prototype case, right?
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The screen size difference sounds like a nice addition, but not something that I would render game changer and prevent me from sticking to the current model.
I assume this 100KHz option would be using different HW as well, so no way to update it if we have the first batch of devices, right?
BTW, do you have any picture of the final case? I might have missed it, but I think all the pictures so far were with a 3D printed prototype case, right?
Thanks for your support.
Right, the 100kHz version is a different HW design, so we could not update this version to the next generation by firmware.
For the final case, we cannot offer it now, cause the first batch of modeling case would deliver a few weeks later, at that time we will post it here ;)
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Silently watching for a while. Thought this would be a kickstarter by now ^-^
I have two high quality tweezers for surface mount parts. Since acquiring the curved version I never go to the straight one. Even though both are of similar quality the curved is easier to see what your doing and for some reason doesn't shoot parts into the rug as often. For almost any task the curved is better, most notably for turning over parts and easily scooping them off a flat surface. If they were smart tweezers poking them vertically into a dense pcb comfortably is much easier than straight ones as the picture shows. Didn't see any mention of this possibility but I might have missed it.
Remember... once you go curved you never go staight ;D
[attachimg=1][attachimg=2]
[attachimg=3]
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Currently dealing with my Hantek and several used probes, so know about and looking for better measurement gear:
1. pressing the tweezers, SMD part flights away and no chance to find it :palm:
2. measure SMD parts shows a contact issue, as have to press the part even on hand very heavy while the top connect part is not in gold or silver plated or requires a crocodile for contact
3. measure in the 0.xx pF range is a night mare
4. may a zero 0.01 pF calibration or offset would help IMHO and keep that calibrated value, Hantek each time after switch on
5. may a diff function in case pairing various pars as for filter's
just my 2 cents
Hp
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Didn't see any mention of this possibility but I might have missed it.
Remember... once you go curved you never go staight ;D
Thanks bicycleguy,
We do find out some LCR tweezers have the curved tips accessory, it's a good idea, and we can try to deliver this type of tips If time permits ;)
and last week we got some ABS cases, they look good, but just a few samples and the manufacture keep optimize the details now.
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Currently dealing with my Hantek and several used probes, so know about and looking for better measurement gear:
1. pressing the tweezers, SMD part flights away and no chance to find it :palm:
2. measure SMD parts shows a contact issue, as have to press the part even on hand very heavy while the top connect part is not in gold or silver plated or requires a crocodile for contact
3. measure in the 0.xx pF range is a night mare
4. may a zero 0.01 pF calibration or offset would help IMHO and keep that calibrated value, Hantek each time after switch on
5. may a diff function in case pairing various pars as for filter's
just my 2 cents
Hp
We understand your headache problems, that's what we want to solve as well. Stable mechanical structure and measurement are all necessary, not one less.
the 5. tips may need other standard components for reference, and we have considered that the user could input the standard value for this filter, but the operation is unfriendly for these tiny instruments, so we didn't implement this function yet. :P
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@Shannon
>> We understand your headache problems, that's what we want to solve as well. Stable mechanical structure and measurement are all necessary, not one less.
Have now about 4 different ALI cables so called SMD connections, some really 4 pol some less... al the same issue!! no contact as may all not coated with gold ends... or the required force to do any contact at all... only the golden looking crocodile was the only one with good contacts at first trying ...
hp
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Hey there, I'm back with some good news.
The name of this product is Shannon Tweezers, and the version of these tweezers is ST42.
And the logo is a beautiful ghost smile.
We have assembled some pieces of prototypes, please see the attached image. they are a menu image and a new ABS case with a Leather protective sleeve.
Time flies, to be honest, we encountered many unexpected obstacles, especially for the ABS model, which really makes us exhausted and frustrated.
we have asked the manufacture to modify the model four times for different reasons, but unfortunately, there are still some unperfect details at this stage, we have argued with the factory many times.
It's not easy to make the details as good as we want, when we want to balance the cost performance even in China, we are still battling with the factory for a better ABS case |O
We are insisting on optimizing those details, and there is no retreat.
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Thanks for the update, I was wondering when we'll be hearing back on this :)
Any updated ETA or are the issues with the case so problematic that there is no real estimation at the moment?
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The factory is located in Ningbo province, which just encounters a typhoon, and its model and machines sunk in the water.
Actually, I plan to get the final ABS case and show the details here, but when I got this news, I decided to post the prototype image firstly.
So I HOPE we could get the final ABS case 1.5 months later, and could assembly those together after 0.5 months. :palm:
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We use a rechargeable Li-on Battery...
I've been looking for a nice LCR meter/tweezers lately and these look like they could be good if the price and accuracy are right.
Personally, I don't like non-replaceable Li-ion batteries in products that I won't be using/re-charging on a regular basis. They can go into sleep mode if I forget to charge them.
I would prefer a battery that can be easily replaced, re-chargeable or not.
It looks like it's too late in the process to change this, so a few questions
1. Is the battery easily replaceable?
2. If the tweezers are just left to fully discharge, how long would it take for the battery to go into sleep mode?
3. Will the charging circuit allow the battery to exit sleep mode or would you need to get direct access to the battery terminals?
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1. Is the battery easily replaceable?
No, it is difficult for us to weigh detachable convenience and aesthetics.
PS: The battery life can be very long, and it can be left for a long time after shutting down, so don't worry about it. ;)
2. If the tweezers are just left to fully discharge, how long would it take for the battery to go into sleep mode?
The time to enter sleep can be adjusted, and it has nothing to do with whether the battery is fully discharged, the default is one minute
3. Will the charging circuit allow the battery to exit sleep mode or would you need to get direct access to the battery terminals?
The battery terminals are not directly accessible, and can only be charged through the TypeC interface.
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PS: The battery life can be very long, and it can be left for a long time after shutting down, so don't worry about it. ;)
That's very vague. How long is "very long"? 1 month? 1 year? 20 years?
I do worry about these things. And I can leave things uncharged for a "very long" time.
2. If the tweezers are just left to fully discharge, how long would it take for the battery to go into sleep mode?
The time to enter sleep can be adjusted, and it has nothing to do with whether the battery is fully discharged, the default is one minute
I was NOT refering to the tweezers' sleep mode, I was refering to the sleep mode Li-ion batteries enter when they are fully discharged.
Usually, simply plugging the charger in will not revive the battery.
I'm sure you know all about these things.
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PS: The battery life can be very long, and it can be left for a long time after shutting down, so don't worry about it. ;)
That's very vague. How long is "very long"? 1 month? 1 year? 20 years?
I do worry about these things. And I can leave things uncharged for a "very long" time.
2. If the tweezers are just left to fully discharge, how long would it take for the battery to go into sleep mode?
The time to enter sleep can be adjusted, and it has nothing to do with whether the battery is fully discharged, the default is one minute
I was NOT refering to the tweezers' sleep mode, I was refering to the sleep mode Li-ion batteries enter when they are fully discharged.
Usually, simply plugging the charger in will not revive the battery.
I'm sure you know all about these things.
Thanks for your question.
At the beginning of the design, this spec was taken into consideration by us.
Our design spec is less than the leakage of the lithium battery itself. The design goal is within a few microamps. According to the battery capacity we choose, the calculated result is 100,000hour, It sounds impossible.
The leakage of the battery itself is the biggest problem, the self-discharge spec of the battery we choose now shows that it can be stored for 1 to 12 months, which is closely related to its storage temperature.
please refer the attached image, a leakage test result and battery spec.
For the second question.
After plugging in the charger, the charging circuit wakes up the battery in a small current charging mode, and when the voltage reaches the normal range, it is charged with the set current.
There is no need to disassemble these tweezers with additional operations to revive the battery.
We have not measured how long the lithium battery can go to sleep mode(battery protection circuit module discharge cut off?), you can refer to the battery's self-discharge spec.
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Instead of making the sticks of your tweezer fixed - wouldn't it be better to use Type-C connectors in vertical?
This kind of design is way more flexible and way smarter,especially when you need to swap your tweezers stick with some other custom probes.
P.S: & also this kind of approach with Type-C sockets should make the routing of true kelvin custom probes/tips way easier.
8)
aliexpress.com/item/1005001871184488.html (http://aliexpress.com/item/1005001871184488.html)
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Instead of making the sticks of your tweezer fixed - wouldn't it be better to use Type-C connectors in vertical?
This kind of design is way more flexible and way smarter,especially when you need to swap your tweezers stick with some other custom probes.
P.S: & also this kind of approach with Type-C sockets should make the routing of true kelvin custom probes/tips way easier.
8)
aliexpress.com/item/1005001871184488.html (http://aliexpress.com/item/1005001871184488.html)
Thanks for your suggestion :D
You mean to say,
The tweezers tip and the body can be linked by TypeC. TypeC has many signal wires, which can transmit power and Kelvin signals at the same time.
Similar to DT71, use 3.5mm audio interface to transmit power and signal, but not four-wire Kelvin.
It's a good idea, it's convenient to assemble,
TypeC is the most stable one compare to micro USB, Mini USB, Lighting and etc,
but the structure may not be stable for daily use.
We could make more custom probes, the replacement needs to use a screwdriver teardown four screws.
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This seems like a bad idea. The sideways forces on the USB-C connectors during use of the tweezers are likely to lead to early failure, or at least intermittent connection.
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This seems like a bad idea. The sideways forces on the USB-C connectors during use of the tweezers are likely to lead to early failure, or at least intermittent connection.
as you mentioned, the ability to defend sideways forces are the key factor for tweezers, especially for the tiny SMT components.
Before we select these structures, we have done many designs and tests to improve the mechanical stability.
this video has compared some tweezers for reference. ^-^
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61nLU3FGTk&t=397s (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e61nLU3FGTk&t=397s)
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Very nice job ! :clap:
Really like how you have enough springiness in the tips and how the tweezer arms bottom out so not to overload the tips and send 0603's flying.
IMO the power OFF could be reduced to 5s or even 3s.
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Very nice job ! :clap:
Really like how you have enough springiness in the tips and how the tweezer arms bottom out so not to overload the tips and send 0603's flying.
IMO the power OFF could be reduced to 5s or even 3s.
Ha, we have the same idea,
the Power OFF notice time has been reduced to 5s already.
BTW, The ABS shell mold has been changed many times, and we feel it is very good, and now we have made some tweezers.
It's time to go to the market. >:D
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Hi there,
We have finally completed the product transformation and upgrade, and it is time to accept the reservation.
We are currently working on the Kickstarter project, but I want to know, are there any friends who cannot use the Kickstarter platform?
Now that we have reached the state we want, I am very excited about this moment.
We put the tip of the tweezers under the microscope, we can clearly see the fineness of the tip of the tweezers, and it is very easy to clamp the 0402 components.
I am very happy that they have achieved the performance I want.
Attach some latest photos. If you are interested, you can reply directly. I will prepare a simple unboxing video tomorrow ;).
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Glad to hear it finally got to that point, great job :-+
Let us know when/where we could get one, I'm still interested in getting a set.
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Hello Ali Express plz....
I can only order from Ali Express. I am not so sure how kick starter work so the safe place for me would be the Ali Express..
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Glad to hear it finally got to that point, great job :-+
Let us know when/where we could get one, I'm still interested in getting a set.
Thanks toli,
Glad to know you are still paying close attention to Shannon Tweezers ;D
I plan to make the project online within a week, and then if it reaches 100 backers, it will be shipped within 1 month.
Could you use Kickstarter Plaform? Do you think it's too late for you?
If we only need to write a link to the EEVblog Forum on the Kickstarter platform, we can gather 100 reservations, and I will wake up in my dreams.
We are preparing videos, pictures, and some materials that can make the project online. I hope they can let me pass it.
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Hello Ali Express plz....
I can only order from Ali Express. I am not so sure how kick starter work so the safe place for me would be the Ali Express..
Hi fkfaraz,
We didn't have an Ali Express account, but we will try to find some other ways to release Shannon Tweezers on this platform, hope it works :palm:
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Banggood??
These are the only places we can order from. All other places like amezon, ebay dont work here |O
your tweezers looks so much prmoising that i have kept me and my other collegues from buying other tweezer like mastech etc. we have been waiting for it pationately... :-//
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I'm still on board.
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I'm interested. Happy enough with Kickstarter, although I do prefer Crowd Supply (owned by Mouser).
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Banggood??
These are the only places we can order from. All other places like amezon, ebay dont work here |O
your tweezers looks so much prmoising that i have kept me and my other collegues from buying other tweezer like mastech etc. we have been waiting for it pationately... :-//
Well, thanks for your information.
even though we are not familiar with Banggood, we learn a new platform for sale :-+
And thanks your colleagues as well,
in your opinion, how many tweezers do you and your colleagues need?
you know the shipping cost is a headache problem for global shipment, do you mind we pack these tweezers together to ship which could save your money?
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"Cappy" the ghost or perhaps "Cesr" the ghost.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1287907;image)
haha...
Come on, we are cute boys.
Most of the time, we will keep the smile, and be a gentle ghost.
But occasionally become a demon, when you use tweezers wrongly, such as measuring the cap without discharge
That would be a horrible story >:D
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Shannon
Would you mind giving us a run through/summary of the Calibration modes ?
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Shannon
Would you mind giving us a run through/summary of the Calibration modes ?
Hi tautech,
No problem.
These tweezers support three calibration modes for users, Self-Calibration, Open Calibration, and Short Calibration
when selecting the open calibration, we have to keep the two tips leave each other
and selecting the short calibration, keep the two tips short together during calibration process.
there is no restrict requirements for self-Calibration, but we always keep the two tops open, less than pico-farad is not an easy work
And the calibration process is recommended that, do Self-Calibration first, and then Open cal, and Short Cal is the lastest step
And there is a Factory Mode as well, this mode is used to clear the user's calibration information, which is used for a backup for abnormal situations.
If I didn’t make it clear, please feel free to let me know ;)
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Thanks for the reply Shannon..
for starters i would like a couple of tweezers for myself :box: :box:and to show my collegues the performance.. :popcorn:
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Shannon
Would you mind giving us a run through/summary of the Calibration modes ?
Hi tautech,
No problem.
These tweezers support three calibration modes for users, Self-Calibration, Open Calibration, and Short Calibration
when selecting the open calibration, we have to keep the two tips leave each other
and selecting the short calibration, keep the two tips short together during calibration process.
there is no restrict requirements for self-Calibration, but we always keep the two tops open, less than pico-farad is not an easy work
And the calibration process is recommended that, do Self-Calibration first, and then Open cal, and Short Cal is the lastest step
And there is a Factory Mode as well, this mode is used to clear the user's calibration information, which is used for a backup for abnormal situations.
If I didn’t make it clear, please feel free to let me know ;)
So is this for calibration to a standard/s that the user may have in their possession that maybe of higher accuracy than your factory calibration ?
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Shannon
Would you mind giving us a run through/summary of the Calibration modes ?
Hi tautech,
No problem.
These tweezers support three calibration modes for users, Self-Calibration, Open Calibration, and Short Calibration
when selecting the open calibration, we have to keep the two tips leave each other
and selecting the short calibration, keep the two tips short together during calibration process.
there is no restrict requirements for self-Calibration, but we always keep the two tops open, less than pico-farad is not an easy work
And the calibration process is recommended that, do Self-Calibration first, and then Open cal, and Short Cal is the lastest step
And there is a Factory Mode as well, this mode is used to clear the user's calibration information, which is used for a backup for abnormal situations.
If I didn’t make it clear, please feel free to let me know ;)
So is this for calibration to a standard/s that the user may have in their possession that maybe of higher accuracy than your factory calibration ?
No.
In this stage, we could not support external calibration manually. you may know sometimes external calibration is easy to screw-ups the calibration data, so we treat this function with low priority.
if it's necessary, we could add an external calibration function for the ultra-high precision requirement.
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The unboxing Shannon Tweezers video is coming.
Forgive my poor English and video cut tech :palm:
Hope you like it.
This video content includes
1. the Container for the Tweezers
2. The ABS Case and Tips teardown
3. Accuracy Presentation
4. Hold Function and shortcut
5. Oscilloscope and Shannon Tweezers test each other
If you have any questions, please feel free to let me know.
Thanks for your suggestions and supports, we will be there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMyViml9v5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMyViml9v5A)
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Do you want to send me a tweezer to review on my YouTube channel to help to get you some more publicity ?
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Do you want to send me a tweezer to review on my YouTube channel to help to get you some more publicity ?
Gunna happen when I get some. ;)
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Do you want to send me a tweezer to review on my YouTube channel to help to get you some more publicity ?
Gunna happen when I get some. ;)
Hi TheDefpom and tautech,
I'm excited to know you are interested in our tweezers and willing to reviewing them, which is much helpful for promotion.
In this stage, we hope more people to know the advantage of these tweezers, which could make Shannon tweezers higher volume production.
We will send you a tweezer if we have more samples.
Thanks a lot for your support ;D.
And could we catch you through PM in this forum or other methods?
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Del
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Let me know in PM if you get a chance to send me the tweezers for review! ;)
Welcome back, my friends.
I will PM you ;).
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The unboxing Shannon Tweezers video is coming.
Forgive my poor English and video cut tech :palm:
Hope you like it.
This video content includes
1. the Container for the Tweezers
2. The ABS Case and Tips teardown
3. Accuracy Presentation
4. Hold Function and shortcut
5. Oscilloscope and Shannon Tweezers test each other
If you have any questions, please feel free to let me know.
Thanks for your suggestions and supports, we will be there.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMyViml9v5A (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JMyViml9v5A)
If you are interested, you can take a look at the video
5. Oscilloscope and Shannon Tweezers test each other
I used a 1:1 and 10:1 switching probe to test the sine wave, and at the same time, Shannon tweezers could measure the Probes' input impedance and capacitance, which has an influence on the Oscilloscope bandwidth.
My probe bandwidth is just 60MHz, so the test result is about 23pF.
for high-frequency usage, if the output impedance of the signal source is high, the test signal would be divided by the Probe input impedance apparently.
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Hi Shannon,
I plan to make the project online within a week, and then if it reaches 100 backers, it will be shipped within 1 month.
Could you use Kickstarter Plaform? Do you think it's too late for you?
If we only need to write a link to the EEVblog Forum on the Kickstarter platform, we can gather 100 reservations, and I will wake up in my dreams.
I wasn’t on the forum for a few weeks… did I miss the Kickstarter?
I’m still interested!
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Hello Shannon,
Great work on all of this.
I'm late to the thread, but found it fascinating that many "LCR tweezer" experts could give good feedback.
I assume this is not your Kick starter?:
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/toney/ledtwee-v1-a-new-way-to-test-your-led?ref=discovery&term=lcr%20tweezers (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/toney/ledtwee-v1-a-new-way-to-test-your-led?ref=discovery&term=lcr%20tweezers)
;-D
I'm more of a QA expert than testing, so I was glad to see you made the contact tips replaceable.
BTW what would happen if the capacitor was not discharged? How much damage would occur?
Would your product be repairable? or would it be just too difficult/expensive and become junk?
I once forgot to do this, and blew out the input chip on a very expensive LCR bridge measurement equipment. |O
Luckily I was able to repair it by replacing the common CMOS Op-amp in the front end. :-+
regards, RS
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Also, Shannon, if your ambitions are to sell a lot, and maybe expand into other measurement tools, then I do suggest a professional-looking videos on YouTube, etc. Find some other video that does a great job, is a great example, and follow their habits.
Have the video ready when you launch the product.
Your product is very professional, so your marketing should be too!
If you join with a major platform like Kickstarter, they can help you with the digital marketing.
regards, RS
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Time flies, fortunately, we are making progress.
PS: Ignoring the different colors of the screen, we chose two screen models to compare the display effects of the two different screens :palm:
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I prefer the red screen myself, I don't tend to like blue screens as they are harder to read, the human eye doesn't deal with blue as well as other colours.
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+1 for everything but blue. my eyes don't like this color for displays.
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+1 for everything but blue. my eyes don't like this color for displays.
Hi TheDefpom and kripton2035,
We will pay attention to this issue. Even though the actual situation is better than this.
I am a little worried that the reflection of light on the surface film of the different screens is different. I changed the light and the camera, and it looked very different.
See the attachment for the new photos.
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Blue is a terrible colour for displays - it seems to be the least "resolvable" by the eye, so unless you are young and sprightly, it is not the ideal choice. White is probably safest...
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Del
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this is not blue but for me it's a white oled display.
get a display model that exists in different colors, and tell us the display model
if anyone want another color, they can change it if needed.
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+1 for „everything but blue“
Not only used inflationary so now looks „sooo 2005“, but there’s an optics reason it just doesn’t work well for displays. Chromatic aberration of the eye leads to quite significant defocus for monochromatic blue light. It’s actually kinda interesting why we don’t usually notice it, here’s recent nature paper on the topic:
https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-79911-w (https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-020-79911-w)
Anyway, it’s best to use blue displays or indicators only when there’s a good reason, and stick to “boring” colours otherwise.
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I changed the light and the camera, and it looked very different. See the attachment for the new photos.
That looks normal. The numbers look contrasting and easy to read.
Don't pick on the little things. ;)
In the photo I see slightly different starting capacitance on all the devices. Is it calibrated or is it still to be calibrated?
Thank you for your deep question.
To be honest, the moment I saw your question, I also started to think.
But I found the answer to the question right away.
You know that at the two ends of the tweezers tip, one end is the output of the excitation signal, and the other end is the input of the excitation signal.
The tip of one of the tweezers is close to the tip of the other tweezers, and a mutual coupling capacitance is formed between the two "metal plates".
As you can see, both tweezers have 10kHz excitation signals. This useful (Interference) signal is detected, and there is a strange unstable offset and noise.
And the other unusual phenomenon is “Insulated” desktops will also affect the measurement results
Use a video to illustrate this problem couldn’t be better.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APfUBBONyMs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=APfUBBONyMs)
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I wouldn't mind reviewing against a pair of SMT tweezers, a DER DE-5000, and a Beckman ESR meter.
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Del
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Use a video to illustrate this problem couldn’t be better.
Hm..Have you deliberately chosen a parallel circuit(Rp) on one tweezers and a series circuit(Rs) on the other tweezers?
Can you show a video of the calibration process? I've written you before that too much resolution and sensitivity is unnecessary for tweezers with a 2-wire connection.
The wires on a tweezer are very short... so a 2 wire connection in a tweezer probably performs better than a desktop DMM with long leads?
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Use a video to illustrate this problem couldn’t be better.
Hm..Have you deliberately chosen a parallel circuit(Rp) on one tweezers and a series circuit(Rs) on the other tweezers?
Can you show a video of the calibration process? I've written you before that too much resolution and sensitivity is unnecessary for tweezers with a 2-wire connection.
Do you want to say that in the open circuit state, set the test mode of different tweezers, one is the capacitor and the resistor in series, and the other is the capacitor and the resistor in parallel? I am a little confused. What indicators do I want to see in this test?
As for the two-wire and four-wire and the corresponding accuracy, I can’t remember if I have an explanation,
but we did lead the four-wire to the tip of the tweezers, so the error comes from the contact impedance and the coupling between the tip of the tweezers?
For extreme cases, such as short-circuit or open-circuit conditions, these errors cannot be ignored, but for most cases, higher resolution and accuracy are more welcome.
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Del
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The wires on a tweezer are very short... so a 2 wire connection in a tweezer probably performs better than a desktop DMM with long leads?
Yes, the tweezers have a short length, but for measurements of small capacitance, inductance and resistance even this makes a difference. Because it is still not a full 4-wire connection, even if the 4 conductors converge at the 1st point.
[...]
Since the layout of the "test leads" never changes much in a tweezer, maybe some of those effects can be calibrated out?
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I wouldn't mind reviewing against a pair of SMT tweezers, a DER DE-5000, and a Beckman ESR meter.
That would be very interesting.
we have the confidence to win the game ;)
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Use a video to illustrate this problem couldn’t be better.
Hm..Have you deliberately chosen a parallel circuit(Rp) on one tweezers and a series circuit(Rs) on the other tweezers?
Can you show a video of the calibration process? I've written you before that too much resolution and sensitivity is unnecessary for tweezers with a 2-wire connection.
Shannon Tweezers Calibration Process.
Here is the video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqg24W9agGk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xqg24W9agGk)
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I just paid attention to the fact that usually in automatic mode, selecting the circuit and the absence of parts on the input terminals, the device itself switches to the parallel circuit, which is more suitable for measuring small capacitance. See how the initial capacity is set and the mode is set on the similar HB-14 tweezers.
[/quote]
I don't know if I understand is correct.
You are suggested that when DUT is a small capacitor, people will pay more attention to the characteristics of the parallel resistance, which represents leakage performance
and when DUT is a large capacitor, people will pay more attention to the ESR of the capacitor, which represents the effect of capacitive filtering.
Therefore, it is best to automatically switch between these two models, when the capacitance parameters are measured?
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Del
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What's the status of these? I'd love to try them out.
Thanks,
Josh
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Its been months. still no update..
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It's an ambitious project...
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Hey there, we are still here, and the good news is we have sent out some pieces for some friends.
And the KS project is coming, here is the KS PREVIEW link, and I cannot wait to share it with you.
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751050478/526869536?ref=c0jkaw&token=665a4d84 (https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/751050478/526869536?ref=c0jkaw&token=665a4d84)
This link is "preview version", so if you have any comments, please let us know, we will still try the best to make it better.
Please ignore the time line and two "leather case" inside, we will modify them ;).
To be honest, we are all struggle in the boundary of BEST, but the time is limited, especially under the impact of the epidemic.
Add Discharge Cap Before Measurement! Attention! Video for your reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9-PR8D0mdk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9-PR8D0mdk)
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[...] Discharge Cap Before Measurement! Attention! [...]
I will resist the temptation to ask you how you know! :D
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Looks good.
What are the "precision calibration board" capacitors tolerance wise, roughly?
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Looks good.
What are the "precision calibration board" capacitors tolerance wise, roughly?
Precision Calibration Board capacitor tolerance is 5%.
High precision Capacitor is tooo expensive ;)
The Resistors are 0.1% accurate, so these "components" cannot calibrate ST42, except short and open.
We designed simplified ST42 Calibration function, which only use Self Cal/Short Cal/Open Cal three mode to achieve 0.1% accuracy
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Del
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Hi there,
Recently, we continous send some ST42 to Early Birds.
And we are updating our website these days, shannontweezers.top (http://shannontweezers.top) will be closed these days.
For backup, If you need more information, please visit https://shannontweezers.github.io/ (https://shannontweezers.github.io/)
Thanks.
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The Resistors are 0.1% accurate
The specifications for your tweezers state the following:
Measure ranges:Resistors 0.05Ohm-9.9MOhm. Basic Accurate-0.1%.
What are the actual measurement errors for resistors at the edge of the range?
0.1% of 0.05Ohm is +- 0.00005Ohm. In the previous video you showed us the results when short the tweezer probes. The readings on the display are about 5-15 milliohms.
Why are you telling us fairy tales about the accuracy of 0.1% with a 2-wire measurement, even if it is a pseudo 4-wire one? :D
I'm not sure if this expression makes sense, we're using "basic accuracy" for the specification.
as you mentioned, the contact resistor error is about 10milliohms, so we cannot promise that the accuracy of the smallest gear is 0.1%.
A more scientific expression should be offset(code) + range error(percentage), but we'd better collect hundreds of ST42s to give instrumentation industry recognized spectification.
Obviously we haven't collected enough data right now, but even so, you can observe the excellent performance of the ST42 as well ^-^
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Hi there,
Recently, we continous send some ST42 to Early Birds.
:( but not us. :-//
Unfortunate as we have a big tech show in a couple weeks and it would've great to exhibit your tweezers .......
https://www.emex.co.nz/visitor-information/about-emex/ (https://www.emex.co.nz/visitor-information/about-emex/)
Maybe you had forgotten about our interest in a # of units.
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Hi there,
Recently, we continous send some ST42 to Early Birds.
:( but not us. :-//
Unfortunate as we have a big tech show in a couple weeks and it would've great to exhibit your tweezers .......
https://www.emex.co.nz/visitor-information/about-emex/ (https://www.emex.co.nz/visitor-information/about-emex/)
Maybe you had forgotten about our interest in a # of units.
Hey tautech, we definitely not forget your interest.
You have supported this project at very very beginning stage, I will catch you soon.
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Hi there,
Recently, we continous send some ST42 to Early Birds.
:( but not us. :-//
Unfortunate as we have a big tech show in a couple weeks and it would've great to exhibit your tweezers .......
https://www.emex.co.nz/visitor-information/about-emex/ (https://www.emex.co.nz/visitor-information/about-emex/)
Maybe you had forgotten about our interest in a # of units.
Hey tautech, we definitely not forget your interest.
You have supported this project at very very beginning stage, I will catch you soon.
Yes, have your mail.
It is with some surprise we see you already have these on Aliexpress and at a good price too. :-+
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allProduct.pcShopHead_2002436010918.0 (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allProduct.pcShopHead_2002436010918.0)
Please let us know when you have even 6 you can send us.....one for that other that you mentioned in the email. ;)
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Hi there,
Recently, we continous send some ST42 to Early Birds.
:( but not us. :-//
Unfortunate as we have a big tech show in a couple weeks and it would've great to exhibit your tweezers .......
https://www.emex.co.nz/visitor-information/about-emex/ (https://www.emex.co.nz/visitor-information/about-emex/)
Maybe you had forgotten about our interest in a # of units.
Hey tautech, we definitely not forget your interest.
You have supported this project at very very beginning stage, I will catch you soon.
Yes, have your mail.
It is with some surprise we see you already have these on Aliexpress and at a good price too. :-+
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allProduct.pcShopHead_2002436010918.0 (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026?spm=a2g0o.store_pc_allProduct.pcShopHead_2002436010918.0)
Please let us know when you have even 6 you can send us.....one for that other that you mentioned in the email. ;)
Yes, we are trying to run some early birds orders on the aliepxress platform.
The aliexpress shipping service has high cost performance, expecially for those high shipping cost area even we select the transport company.
And you know DHL/UPS/EMS and many other companies cannot accept goods within battery.
We still have some pieces for early birds, and the price is 109USD, these ST42 is prepared for those guys who want to have a taste firstly ;)
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Just ordered the last tweezers-only one off aliexpress and am looking forward to getting my hands on it - neither my DE-5000 tweezer attachment or my MS8911 really do it for me, hopefully 3rd time lucky!
A quick question Shannon - if there are any firmware updates, can these be upgraded via USB?
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Just ordered the last tweezers-only one off aliexpress and am looking forward to getting my hands on it - neither my DE-5000 tweezer attachment or my MS8911 really do it for me, hopefully 3rd time lucky!
A quick question Shannon - if there are any firmware updates, can these be upgraded via USB?
We asked this question on P1 and yes these tweezers will support FW updates.....somewhere Shannon would have mentioned how this is done as he said he would update us.
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Just ordered the last tweezers-only one off aliexpress and am looking forward to getting my hands on it - neither my DE-5000 tweezer attachment or my MS8911 really do it for me, hopefully 3rd time lucky!
A quick question Shannon - if there are any firmware updates, can these be upgraded via USB?
We asked this question on P1 and yes these tweezers will support FW updates.....somewhere Shannon would have mentioned how this is done as he said he would update us.
Absolutely right, we have record a tutorial for fw update.
but our website is under gorverment review now, some days later, we will put the tutorial on website.
welcome give us more feedback, we will try to make it more powerful.
Recently, we found use the diode test on PCB, there are many diode parrellal with the other PN junction, so ST42 detect a forward diode and a backward diode, and then ST42 will display N/A.
But it's not clear enough.
So we modify the display content, the forward voltage and backward voltage are displayed on the screen, which could give user more information and confidence.
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I'm looking forward to taking one for a test drive!
Any more available?
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I'm looking forward to taking one for a test drive!
Any more available?
well, the answer is yes, but the plan is they would be enjoyed by those early birds.
And you know we will send you a st42 for free after more production process, so please hold on, it's coming ;)
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I've been (passively) following this thread since the beginning and I have finally decided to get one.
I ordered the tweezers on 17th May on AliExpress and looking forward to trying them out.
Any indication on they are likely to ship (not sure if I count as an "early bird" or not)?
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I've been (passively) following this thread since the beginning and I have finally decided to get one.
I ordered the tweezers on 17th May on AliExpress and looking forward to trying them out.
Any indication on they are likely to ship (not sure if I count as an "early bird" or not)?
Hi giosif,
Needless to say, you are an early bird and we greatly appreciate your support.
Our city is still being affected by the COVID epidemic recently, the courier will collect the goods and send them out on Sunday.
Please be patient, we will update the delivery information on the platform ASAP :)
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Thanks,
Sure, no rush here; just wanted to get an idea on when it's going out.
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Just entered in the early bird group: can't wait for the ST42!
And you know we will send you a st42 for free after more production process, so please hold on, it's coming
any more details?
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Just entered in the early bird group: can't wait for the ST42!
And you know we will send you a st42 for free after more production process, so please hold on, it's coming
any more details?
Hi eliocor,
Here are the details.
We have tried making two batches of Shannon Tweezers by ourselves, each batch is about 20, the first batch is used for testing, and sent to some friends to find problems. Improved second batch, partly for Early Birds.
The tweezers have many parts and the cost of assembly time is high. We can no longer afford more such work. In the next batch, we will hand over more work to the factory, including production assembly, manual calibration, and other work. The number of this batch is around 100. The original plan was to start this part of the work after receiving some orders from KS, but you know, it might not be the time yet. Thanks to Early Birds and the guys in EEVblog for your support.
At the same time as the production of hardware components, our online update function has been completed and has undergone many tests. Now the domain name of the website is under review. After passing, you can share the update method with everyone.
For the duration of this batch, the plan is 2~3 weeks. But the netizens who have followed this discussion group should have relevant experience, that is, our time is not reliable :'(. We may be one of the few places in the world that can still be affected by the COVID epidemic, but I believe it will not be another three years.
Aliexpress is indeed a very convenient platform, but the logistics time is really long and in some countries, the tax is really high.
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I know how hard it is... May the winds of good fortune be with you!
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Ordered 1 from Ali last week, will report once it arrive.
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Mine arrived today (ordered via Ali-express on 20 May) :D
First impression is very good.
Now it's time to play with it.
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Mine arrived today (ordered via Ali-express on 20 May) :D
First impression is very good.
Now it's time to play with it.
Great to hear - mine is still in China despite ordering earlier, but to be fair I don't need it urgently.
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I got mine last week, very good impression so far as well. A few issues (mostly with inductance), but they should hopefully be resolved with the next firmware update (after 5.26). Shannon is very responsive, and clearly interested in providing an excellent product.
Thanks,
Josh
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Mine arrived today (ordered via Ali-express on 20 May) :D
First impression is very good.
Now it's time to play with it.
Hi dibro,
The firmware upgrade feature has been released on our website https://shannontweezers.top/ (https://shannontweezers.top/)
If you want to enjoy the new feature, such as the diode detection, you can try to update your firmware to the last version v1.3.8 ;)
when we did the real diode test on the PCB, there are many strange phenomenons
it's definitely an actual and good diode, but the test result is "N/A" under ST42 diode function
we found many diodes hidden in the IC, which could influence the Diode Detection function.
So we modified the firmware to display forward and backward voltage under "N/A" test result, which could give more information and confidence to the users.
Test image attached.
Hope you like it.
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Hi Shannon,
thanks for the updated firmware.
After I got 2 times a connection failure I did finally read the error message and noticed that your update program connects to an external address and port. ::)
And (as the nerd that I am) most outgoing ports are blocked in my firewall.
After allowing your address and port through in my firewall the update worked perfectly :)
fyi, I used the Linux program for the update.
Thanks again.
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Received mind this morning, well packed. Will test it out later this week.
[attach=1]
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Hello dear Shannon
congratulation on releasing the tweezers.
on checking Ali, i am getting price of 183 USD instead of 109USD. is the price increased?
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Hello dear Shannon
congratulation on releasing the tweezers.
on checking Ali, i am getting price of 183 USD instead of 109USD. is the price increased?
We still have some pieces for early birds, and the price is 109USD, these ST42 is prepared for those guys who want to have a taste firstly ;)
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Hello dear Shannon
congratulation on releasing the tweezers.
on checking Ali, i am getting price of 183 USD instead of 109USD. is the price increased?
Because the $109 version is sold out (Plain ST42). Only the ones with leather case is available ($183). Either wait for him to restock or wait for kickstarter.
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Hello dear Shannon
congratulation on releasing the tweezers.
on checking Ali, i am getting price of 183 USD instead of 109USD. is the price increased?
Because the $109 version is sold out (Plain ST42). Only the ones with leather case is available ($183). Either wait for him to restock or wait for kickstarter.
As thm_w said, we have sold almost all second batch of st42, the price is not for early birds as you.
New batch of ST42 is on the way, we can update the numbers in store next week.
And the price will be changed to early birds mode ;D
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Shannon was trying to send me a tweezer to do a review video on, unfortunately there were issues with the item being returned due to the battery... so I still don't have it yet, I don't know if Shannon has given up trying to send it to me, I wouldn't blame them !
If Shannon is able to get a pair to me then I will do a review on them.
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Shannon was trying to send me a tweezer to do a review video on, unfortunately there were issues with the item being returned due to the battery... so I still don't have it yet, I don't know if Shannon has given up trying to send it to me, I wouldn't blame them !
If Shannon is able to get a pair to me then I will do a review on them.
of course not, we have not given up ;)
and the story is we sent it out to one transport company last week, but we got some unfortunate feedback, they need extra shipping cost, which is much higher than our expectation.
So the plan is this company will send back the package to me, and we will select the other transport company to help us send it to you ;)
After we get the international tracking number, we will let you know.
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Hello dear Shannon
congratulation on releasing the tweezers.
on checking Ali, i am getting price of 183 USD instead of 109USD. is the price increased?
Because the $109 version is sold out (Plain ST42). Only the ones with leather case is available ($183). Either wait for him to restock or wait for kickstarter.
As thm_w said, we have sold almost all second batch of st42, the price is not for early birds as you.
New batch of ST42 is on the way, we can update the numbers in store next week.
And the price will be changed to early birds mode ;D
:-+
I will be waiting for the Updated Price then,
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The ST42 arrived today:
PROS:
- fast measurements
- precise: checked against some reference capacitors/resistors
CONS:
- with some low value inductors it show the resistance, instead of inductance. Solution: maybe it needs just a little change in the FW
- the springiness of the two arms is too high and require a rather hefty force to bend them. This is rather annoying! Solution: no idea.
- several times I press on the joystick, I get a beep, but no changes in the menus. Solution: do not beep if the key is not accepted; eg: when in scroll mode, accept only Up/Down keys
- menu scroll: if the end is reached, it should restart to first menu item if Down is pressed.
SUGGESTIONS:
- Implement a menu item which try to test any kind of components: L/R/C/Diode/LED altogether. Even if the readings will be SLOWER, it will be better than roaming through the menus to change the test type.
- Offer in your shop (as a replacement part) the tips of the tweezers
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The ST42 arrived today:
Great to know you have revived ST42, and thanks a lot for your feedback ;D
We have discussed some solutions for your feedback.
Let's talk about the Cons and suggestions only.
- with some low value inductors it show the resistance, instead of inductance. Solution: maybe it needs just a little change in the FW
Do you remember the value of the inductor? we can try to repeat this issue.
For a while, we were plagued by the problem that 0ohm resistors were easily judged as inductances, so we realized that near the limit.
Small inductance and small resistance are very similar in physical properties.
Therefore, for very small inductances, it is recommended to use the manual mode for measurement.
We are still trying to figure out whether we can further improve the discrimination accuracy.
if one day, we could use a 100kHz excitation signal, that could make big progress. >:D
- the springiness of the two arms is too high and require a rather hefty force to bend them. This is rather annoying! Solution: no idea.
The solution could be to use thinner or low springiness material as the arms of tweezers.
if we receive more feedback for the springiness as you mentioned, we will upgrade it.
- several times I press on the joystick, I get a beep, but no changes in the menus. Solution: do not beep if the key is not accepted; eg: when in scroll mode, accept only Up/Down keys
The logic of this case is that we want to remind the user that you did press the button, but the function is empty. . . :palm:
We're trying to improve this, maybe it's a good idea to use left and right in menus for exiting and entering menus, as elsewhere.
- menu scroll: if the end is reached, it should restart to first menu item if Down is pressed.
One tip is when you choose to long-press the joykey in the middle, you can exit the menu of this layer, without operating to the bottom, and choose to exit.
For the cycle menu function, we will implement an instead function, long press "down" joykey, the menu will scroll to the end automatically.
SUGGESTIONS:
- Implement a menu item which try to test any kind of components: L/R/C/Diode/LED altogether. Even if the readings will be SLOWER, it will be better than roaming through the menus to change the test type.
This function is in our TODO list for a long time, we need some time to implement and validate it.
- Offer in your shop (as a replacement part) the tips of the tweezers
No problem, we will add it to the shop.
You are not the only one to give this suggestion.
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- several times I press on the joystick, I get a beep, but no changes in the menus. Solution: do not beep if the key is not accepted; eg: when in scroll mode, accept only Up/Down keys
The logic of this case is that we want to remind the user that you did press the button, but the function is empty. . . :palm:
We're trying to improve this, maybe it's a good idea to use left and right in menus for exiting and entering menus, as elsewhere.
Perhaps a quick double-chirp or other 'different' sound in the case of input that doesn't work?
I'm not totally sure it wouldn't bring more confusion instead of helping without trying in practice, but maybe. 'Rejected input' feedback behavior could be made into an option setting (if it's worth the effort and menu space).
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- several times I press on the joystick, I get a beep, but no changes in the menus. Solution: do not beep if the key is not accepted; eg: when in scroll mode, accept only Up/Down keys
The logic of this case is that we want to remind the user that you did press the button, but the function is empty. . . :palm:
We're trying to improve this, maybe it's a good idea to use left and right in menus for exiting and entering menus, as elsewhere.
Perhaps a quick double-chirp or other 'different' sound in the case of input that doesn't work?
I'm not totally sure it wouldn't bring more confusion instead of helping without trying in practice, but maybe. 'Rejected input' feedback behavior could be made into an option setting (if it's worth the effort and menu space).
Yes, different beep sounds could be used to inform the users. We will try to compare these schemes and choose the best solution.
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The new batch of ST42 is on the way, we can get part of them in this week.
So the numbers of ST42 on the Aliexpress platform have been refreshed. you can order now.
And the gold-plated tips are an add-on option as eliocor suggested.
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I've been following this development (with interest) since the start and have had several suggestions - but others have beaten me to the punch every time. There have been a lot of other great ideas as well.
Over the last few months, I have been time challenged so have missed the early bird opportunity and now the subject of nuptials for my daughter has been hinted at. Discretionary spending is on indefinite hold.
I shall have to resort to the vicarious alternative for a while - so, people, please post videos!
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Mine just arrived, shipping was a bit slow but that seems to be mostly down to luck these days unless you pay $$$ for a courier.
Haven't had much of a chance to play, but I can already tell that it's WAY better than the Mastech MS8911 I bought before this (some others on the forum think the Mastech is a good product, but personally I found it horrible to use). Biggest issue I've seen so far is that of getting a good solid contact with components on a PCB, but I think this is just a general limitation of using tweezer-style testers on already-soldered parts. The joystick is also a little fiddly to use, but again I think that's a form factor constraint.
I'll play around a bit more, but unless I hit any big issues I'll probably try and order a couple more for work. I look forward to seeing the FW develop more - if I think of or find any areas for improvement I'll make sure to make suggestions :)
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Have been using tweezers for years and the contact issue is the weak point. Don't think there is a practical solution. :'(
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Received LCR tweezers today about 36 days after ordering, not bad in todays environment. Slightly odd that the sw version date was 5 days after I ordered.
The quality seems very good (almost) and the measurements are fast and very accurate or at least match my 121GW at 10X it's speed. By the time I think I have a proper connection and can take my eyes off what I'm measuring the readings are already there. Along with that the hold feature is implemented very well with repetitive beeps I think, letting you know it will hold the value of the last beep.
The display is super crisp even with my old eyes, even without the magnifier I'm usually using for working with small parts. I have no problem with the arm stiffness, I think its just right. It's really nice to pick small chips with some quality tweezers!
The auto function works great so the menus aren't usually needed, however, now an issue:
Like @eliocor posted #277 sometimes I get beeps with no action, almost always with the down key. Fiddling with this it acts like a bad switch, except for the beeps. Sometimes if I squint just right it works ^-^ but usually not. This mostly effects the down button. Inevitably when the down works it won't scroll back up. As a programmer this seems like a software glitch, or maybe a crummy switch with less than optimal software dealing with its issues. Perhaps the down and left or right key are engaging at the same time or the left or right key is engaging when it should be the down.
While writing this I found a way to make it work. If I want to go down I have to kind of roll the switch from left to right as I pull down. The attached picture shows the button seems to be down and to the left of center. Some times it seems to look rotated also.
I think it's time to take it apart!
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Received LCR tweezers today about 36 days after ordering, not bad in todays environment.
Like @eliocor posted #277 sometimes I get beeps with no action, almost always with the down key. Fiddling with this it acts like a bad switch, except for the beeps. Sometimes if I squint just right it works ^-^ but usually not. This mostly effects the down button. Inevitably when the down works it won't scroll back up. As a programmer this seems like a software glitch, or maybe a crummy switch with less than optimal software dealing with its issues. Perhaps the down and left or right key are engaging at the same time or the left or right key is engaging when it should be the down.
While writing this I found a way to make it work. If I want to go down I have to kind of roll the switch from left to right as I pull down. The attached picture shows the button seems to be down and to the left of center. Some times it seems to look rotated also.
I think it's time to take it apart!
Hey bicycleguy,
Thanks for your support and feedback :-+
And let's follow the traditional way, we talk about the cons only.
“Slightly odd that the sw version date was 5 days after I ordered.”
The story is we send it out on the weekend, so before we send it out, we will update the firmware to the last version.
You know some guys may miss the firmware upgrade notification on our website.
We try our best to make the user experience better.
through you and @eliocor feedback, you all think we can make the menu and joystick better.
We are serious about this feedback, this is one key factor of the user interface.
BTW we are encouraged by your comments on the comparison with other instruments,
and the performance of accuracy/test speed/auto mode/hold function/mechanical stability and so on.
We will continue to make it better.
Thank you all ;D
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....
I think it's time to take it apart!
... BTW we are encouraged by your comments on the comparison with other instruments,
and the performance of accuracy/test speed/auto mode/hold function/mechanical stability and so on.
We will continue to make it better.
Thank you all ;D
So I took the front cover off to look at the switch and the display went random and then froze. The switch still beeped. Then the screen went black, but the switch still beeped. Of course I thought I had trashed it. Measured 3.2V at some pads near the top right of the display. Didn't know at the time I could have measured the battery at the bottom right. The battery had measured 80% on the display a few minutes before, so I thought it was ok.
Put the device on the USB charger and went to bed. Sure enough, in the morning all is well, even the scroll down key seems fixed.
So the conclusions are:
1. Charge the device, even though the battery says it's ok. I should have known to do this but you may want to point it out for idiots like me.
2. Perhaps the battery level indicator is off or maybe it dropped real fast since it was a month in shipping.
3. Even when the switch was acting up the meter seemed to measure correctly. Seems a little weird that a lowly switch would need more voltage than a measurement. Perhaps the switch pulldown current in combination with the beep is enough to make the microprocessor glitch on low voltage.
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Don't know if this is by design or what but on my device one of the four cover screws was slightly different:
3 screws 10mm long, 2mm dia, .83pitch
1 screw 11mm long, 2mm dia, .62pitch
Not noticeable until you put them side by side. This small difference will surly mess up the self tapping holes if exchanged enough. The longer one was on the top right looking at the back in sticker reading orientation on my particular unit.
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....
I think it's time to take it apart!
... BTW we are encouraged by your comments on the comparison with other instruments,
and the performance of accuracy/test speed/auto mode/hold function/mechanical stability and so on.
We will continue to make it better.
Thank you all ;D
So I took the front cover off to look at the switch and the display went random and then froze. The switch still beeped. Then the screen went black, but the switch still beeped. Of course I thought I had trashed it. Measured 3.2V at some pads near the top right of the display. Didn't know at the time I could have measured the battery at the bottom right. The battery had measured 80% on the display a few minutes before, so I thought it was ok.
Put the device on the USB charger and went to bed. Sure enough, in the morning all is well, even the scroll down key seems fixed.
So the conclusions are:
1. Charge the device, even though the battery says it's ok. I should have known to do this but you may want to point it out for idiots like me.
2. Perhaps the battery level indicator is off or maybe it dropped real fast since it was a month in shipping.
3. Even when the switch was acting up the meter seemed to measure correctly. Seems a little weird that a lowly switch would need more voltage than a measurement. Perhaps the switch pulldown current in combination with the beep is enough to make the microprocessor glitch on low voltage.
Hi bicycleguy,
Thanks a lot for your feedback.
Have you upgraded your firmware version?
Highly recommend that upgrade the firmware to the last version, here is the upgrade instruction https://shannontweezers.top/docs/upgrading-firmware/ (https://shannontweezers.top/docs/upgrading-firmware/)
We have released the low power protection in version 1.3.9
As you mentioned, we found low battery voltage protection is necessary after Dave received the ST42 with no power.
It is not that ST42 silent current makes the battery die, we have put it alone for two months, and the battery is still healthy, and we can use it immediately.
When our package is on the way, sometimes there are some other packages pressed on ST42, and the key is always pressed, so the battery is exhausted.
the other strange phenomenon is that you found the battery monitor function has some issue, we have not met before.
so before you teardown them, the battery voltage shows 80%,
after that, the battery is 3.2V tested by DMM.
Is the 80% displayed on the screen when you charge ST42?
We will try to repeat this issue.
if you have not upgraded the firmware, please update the firmware firstly,
and if you found this phenomenon again, Pls help us use the joystick switch to System->Service->Battery, and observe the battery voltage.
That will help us find out the root cause.
Really appreciate it.
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Don't know if this is by design or what but on my device one of the four cover screws was slightly different:
3 screws 10mm long, 2mm dia, .83pitch
1 screw 11mm long, 2mm dia, .62pitch
Not noticeable until you put them side by side. This small difference will surly mess up the self tapping holes if exchanged enough. The longer one was on the top right looking at the back in sticker reading orientation on my particular unit.
To be honest, we have tested different long screws.
And we found that 11mm and 10mm are all suits for this application, we may mix one 11mm screw in the 10mm screw package.
As you said, if the screw length is different, it is worth noting that it will easily affect the effect of the assembly.
And we need to optimize the assembly process as well. :palm:
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Received today, took about 20 days to arrive.
Need to play with it more, but, in Auto mode, it seems to be calibrated correctly and read a 10mR resistor close (14mR). However in resistance mode, it was not applying the offset calibration? It reads 25mR, which is high.
Tried running short CAL once, ran it again immediately after and now the screen is stuck displaying "--SHORT CAL--" there is no way for me to exit the screen. Might have to take it apart to reset it?
Maybe it needs an emergency reset or shutdown option, like holding button down will trigger a reset. Currently, as others noted, it just repeatedly beeps when you hold a button down.
Added some red and black heatshrink, can see in photo below.
I do like the sound buzzer level adjustment option.
Steps to upgrade firmware:
- Unplug USB
- Enter menu -> Shutdown, wait for shutdown
- Hold nav button UP, plug into USB, "bootloader" shown on LCD
- Use "fw_upgrade.exe comxx" in command line
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However in resistance mode, it was not applying the offset calibration? It reads 25mR, which is high.
Tried running short CAL once, ran it again immediately after and now the screen is stuck displaying "--SHORT CAL--" there is no way for me to exit the screen. Might have to take it apart to reset it?
Maybe it needs an emergency reset or shutdown option, like holding button down will trigger a reset. Currently, as others noted, it just repeatedly beeps when you hold a button down.
Hi thm_w,
thanks a lot for your feedback, and you help us find out a big bug.
However in resistance mode, it was not applying the offset calibration? It reads 25mR, which is high.
During the calibration, we did the AC mode calibration only, DCR short calibration have not been implemented.
We will add this feature to the coming firmware version these days.
Tried running short CAL once, ran it again immediately after and now the screen is stuck displaying "--SHORT CAL--" there is no way for me to exit the screen. Might have to take it apart to reset it?
the first response in my mind is "WHAT"? we never met it before.
But the second step we try to repeat this phenomenon on our own tweezers, fortunately, doing "--SHORT CAL--" the second time immediately may make the display hold.
There is a firmware logic issue there.
We will fix this issue as soon as possible, and try to add a force restart function as well.
The recommendation is to put the tweezers on your desk, and the tweezers will consume the power of the battery and restart.
This process may spend a long time.
Tearing down the tweezers, the screen installation is a little difficult to put in the slot, which may lead to the screen breaking.
We have broken some screens during the assembly |O
Hope this method could help you recover ST42, and we will come back soon with new firmware version.
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We have released the low power protection in version 1.3.9
...
the other strange phenomenon is that you found the battery monitor function has some issue, we have not met before.
so before you teardown them, the battery voltage shows 80%,
after that, the battery is 3.2V tested by DMM.
Is the 80% displayed on the screen when you charge ST42?
We will try to repeat this issue.
...
and if you found this phenomenon again, Pls help us use the joystick switch to System->Service->Battery, and observe the battery voltage.
That will help us find out the root cause.
Really appreciate it.
In order above:
Version currently at 1.3.8, will update.
Sorry, I was not clear and learned more details after the post. The 3.2V was measured between two solder pads at the top right above the display. I realize now this is probably the regulated voltage, not the battery voltage. It was 3.2V when the key problems existed and after charging. I didn't know about the battery mV readout as the menu issue was difficult but did write down 3 of 4 bars. The 80% was with USB charging. This morning, after charging overnight and with it working correctly, I noticed the battery display readout you mentioned displayed 4039mV. I removed the cover again to measure the battery. I measured 4025mV a few seconds later at the wire connections to the pcb. While the cover was off the display froze. I soon figured out a slight press to the flex connection to the OLED was required. Without the display freezes, breakups and eventually goes black. Pressing on the flex fixed it. Putting the cover back on I noted the tight fit you mentioned.
So in conclusion:
I don't know what the battery display mV or the actual battery V was when I had scroll key issues.
The screen issue I had was from the flex connection from taking the cover off. It didn't immediately work when I put the cover on that night.
The fact it worked the next day and still does may have been better seating of the flex over time? Is there supposed to be a pad or something?
On the screw issue, my concern is the thread pitch difference, not the length. All four screws should be the same pitch so you don't have to keep track of where it came from. I'd go with the course pitch.
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On the screw issue, my concern is the thread pitch difference, not the length. All four screws should be the same pitch so you don't have to keep track of where it came from. I'd go with the course pitch.
Agreed, it is poor form to use different thread pitches within a group of screws holding anything together.
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On the screw issue, my concern is the thread pitch difference, not the length. All four screws should be the same pitch so you don't have to keep track of where it came from. I'd go with the course pitch.
Agreed, it is poor form to use different thread pitches within a group of screws holding anything together.
Sorry for this issue, we will unify the model of screws and throw away those screws that are purchased for test.
Thanks bicycleguy as the first one who helps us point out these issues, and give us the advice to optimize them:
screws are not unified
Let's follow the traditional way, we will send you some gifts to thank you for your contribution to st42.
we will catch you through eevblog PM ;)
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...
So in conclusion:
I don't know what the battery display mV or the actual battery V was when I had scroll key issues.
The screen issue I had was from the flex connection from taking the cover off. It didn't immediately work when I put the cover on that night.
The fact it worked the next day and still does may have been better seating of the flex over time? Is there supposed to be a pad or something?
On the screw issue, my concern is the thread pitch difference, not the length. All four screws should be the same pitch so you don't have to keep track of where it came from. I'd go with the course pitch.
we will update the screen installation process, it's easy to make the screen unstable and broken.
the detail is putting some foam sponge glue between the screen and the flex PCB firstly, and then installing the top cover.
This should make the flex board more stable, and decrease the broken risk.
We have tested this process on a few parts, and it works well, so it will be the standard screen installation process on the next batch of ST42.
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The recommendation is to put the tweezers on your desk, and the tweezers will consume the power of the battery and restart.
This process may spend a long time.
I already have them on overnight, and they are still running! Can't imagine how little power it is using.
I won't dare to reset the micro as I don't know the pinout. So I'll keep waiting for battery to die.
If the battery was ever not enough it looks like there is ~2-3mm vertical height for a larger battery. But it should be fine.
edit: tweezers just shut down (~16h), plugged them into USB again and its charging now. Will test them once battery has recovered.
edit2: seem to be working well after another CAL. Seriously impressed at how good these are at reading low value resistances and capacitance. Higher value resistors are usually good but occasionally off depending on what else is in circuit, eg one 10k resistor was reading 10k on fluke but ~6k on these in Rdc mode.
There is a menu option Measure -> Level -> 0.1/0.5/1.2V but this doesn't seem to affect Rdc mode. Rdc is fixed at 0.5V?
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edit: tweezers just shut down (~16h), plugged them into USB again and its charging now. Will test them once battery has recovered.
edit2: seem to be working well after another CAL. Seriously impressed at how good these are at reading low value resistances and capacitance. Higher value resistors are usually good but occasionally off depending on what else is in circuit, eg one 10k resistor was reading 10k on fluke but ~6k on these in Rdc mode.
There is a menu option Measure -> Level -> 0.1/0.5/1.2V but this doesn't seem to affect Rdc mode. Rdc is fixed at 0.5V?
Hi thm_w,
We did the test at the same time, the working hour is around a whole day, which is similar to your test.
RDC is a voltage test mode, so the 1.2V/0.5V/0.1V voltage is the AC mode peak 2 peak amplitude, which is for the Auto Mode and L/C/R mode.
1. have you checked if the DUT res is 10kohm? you can use ST42 0.5V auto mode to do the On Board test.
2. Could you help us check the voltage on the 10kohm res when you use the RDC mode and Fluke doing the test?
The result could help us check the difference.
One reason may be the ST42 generate a higher voltage on the resistor, and trigger other components, the parallel res is smaller than the DUT.
It's a good recommendation to implement RDC onboard test function as well, we will discuss this feature, and add to our TODO list.
I will catch you by eevblog forum PM, and thanks for your contribute to ST42 ;)
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RDC is a constant current test mode, so the 1.2V/0.5V/0.1V voltage is the AC mode peak 2 peak amplitude, which is for the Auto Mode and L/C/R mode.
1. have you checked if the DUT res is 10kohm? you can use ST42 0.5V auto mode to do the On Board test.
2. Could you help us check the voltage on the 10kohm res when you use the RDC mode and Fluke doing the test?
Yeah I think you are right, its across FET gate, then 1k series resistor into an IO pin. So maybe one of those is slightly turning on. The Auto mode works very well most of the time, and here it detects as 10k exactly, so I should be in that mode instead.
For RDC:
The ST42 voltage across goes from 0.570V to 0.508V during its test.
The Fluke only delivers 80mV when testing the 10k. It may not be possible to achieve this low voltage.
One other Auto example, inductor of 4.9uH 100mR resistance:
- in 100/120Hz it will read as a resistor
- in 1kHz, 10kHz it reads as an inductor
Maybe intended, OK for me, as I should be in 10kHz mode when measuring inductance.
-
Yeah I think you are right, its across FET gate, then 1k series resistor into an IO pin. So maybe one of those is slightly turning on. The Auto mode works very well most of the time, and here it detects as 10k exactly, so I should be in that mode instead.
For RDC:
The ST42 voltage across goes from 0.570V to 0.508V during its test.
The Fluke only delivers 80mV when testing the 10k. It may not be possible to achieve this low voltage.
One other Auto example, inductor of 4.9uH 100mR resistance:
- in 100/120Hz it will read as a resistor
- in 1kHz, 10kHz it reads as an inductor
Maybe intended, OK for me, as I should be in 10kHz mode when measuring inductance.
Thanks for your test.
Fluke use 80mV to measure 10kohm means the current is 8uA.
We think the best way is to add auto range mode to the DCR function, this feature is in our TODO list now.
Even though the DCR measurement is not the advantage of ST42, we will make it better as well.
For the 100Hz 4.9uH inductor, the impedance is very small, ST42 cannot distinguish the inductor from the DCR resistor.
Z = 2*pi*f*L = 2*3.14*100*4.9uH = ~3mohm, which is very small, and mush smaller than the DCR 100mohm.
As you mentioned, the auto mode is suited for most of the applications.
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Hi there,
New firmware has been released. Here is the update:
v1.4.2 2022/6/27 fix >100mH level inductor measurement stuck issue
fix self-calibration may stuck
added left/right button function to exit/enter menu
added alarm for unaccepted button
welcome to upgrade to the latest version, the joystick control is much more fluent and meets user habits.
And two small probability bugs have also been fixed.
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Hi there,
New firmware has been released. Here is the update:
v1.4.2 2022/6/27 fix >100mH level inductor measurement stuck issue
fix self-calibration may stuck
added left/right button function to exit/enter menu
added alarm for unaccepted button
welcome to upgrade to the latest version, the joystick control is much more fluent and meets user habits.
And two small probability bugs have also been fixed.
Went looking for it since you didn't provide a link or file to download...... and it was easy to find. :phew:
https://shannontweezers.top/docs/upgrading-firmware/
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Hi there,
New firmware has been released. Here is the update:
v1.4.2 2022/6/27 fix >100mH level inductor measurement stuck issue
fix self-calibration may stuck
added left/right button function to exit/enter menu
added alarm for unaccepted button
welcome to upgrade to the latest version, the joystick control is much more fluent and meets user habits.
And two small probability bugs have also been fixed.
Went looking for it since you didn't provide a link or file to download...... and it was easy to find. :phew:
https://shannontweezers.top/docs/upgrading-firmware/
The link above has link 'firmware-uploader.zip' which opens v1.3.9, not the latest. Edit: This works a little differently than what I've used before in that the updater is some software that sits on your machine and doesn't need updated. It loads the firmware from some server and installs it into the device. So when the latest firmware is wanted you use the same updater, no need to download it again. So this was the second update for me.
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I've just updated my tweezers and it installed 1.4.2
But I used the updated I had already installed previously.
And I use the linux version of the updated.
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I just received my Shannon Tweezer for review, as it took a while to get shipping to actually carry it it is on firmware 1.3.8, so I am trying to update to the latest firmware but as I use a Mac I am having some difficulties trying to get it done.
Has anyone else here done a firmware update using a Mac that can give me some pointers ?
I tried a couple of things, opened terminal and dragged the file in to get the path and tried to run, this gives this error:
[5311] Error loading Python lib '/var/folders/p7/_xtlbn497yl4wfx8j1jv7ysh0000gn/T/_MEIXEUaLl/Python': dlopen: dlopen(/var/folders/p7/_xtlbn497yl4wfx8j1jv7ysh0000gn/T/_MEIXEUaLl/Python, 10): no suitable image found. Did find:
/var/folders/p7/_xtlbn497yl4wfx8j1jv7ysh0000gn/T/_MEIXEUaLl/Python: cannot load 'Python' (load command 0x80000034 is unknown)
/private/var/folders/p7/_xtlbn497yl4wfx8j1jv7ysh0000gn/T/_MEIXEUaLl/Python: cannot load 'Python' (load command 0x80000034 is unknown)
So I tried specifying python and then dragging the file in to get the path and running that, and that gives this error:
File "/Users/scott/Documents/Shannon Tweezer/fw-update-5.26/fw_update-mac", line 1
SyntaxError: Non-ASCII character '\xcf' in file /Users/scott/Documents/Shannon Tweezer/fw-update-5.26/fw_update-mac on line 1, but no encoding declared; see http://python.org/dev/peps/pep-0263/ for details
I don't have much experience with using python or terminal to do these kinds of tasks, so I am hoping that it is something simple I am missing, at least once I figure that out I can include instructions in the review video.
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@TheDefpom
I forgot to mention to Shannon that I had the same problem with a mac running Catalina macOS 10.15.7. I ended up using a windoz 11 pc.
I did investigate and found something that indicated the problem may be related to the App Shannon made is using a Python library for a newer mac that called a function _preadv that is only available on newer macs. _preadv is implemented in the older libraries but uses the mac version which is newly available. The article stated that the problem is in the Python library installation and that some maintainers had fixed it and some hadn't. Apparently the library distribution Shannon uses hasn't.
Symbol not found: _preadv
Referenced from: /var/folders//.../Python (which was built for Mac OS X 12.0)
Expected in: /usr/lib/libSystem.B.dylib
So there is nothing you can do about it other than waiting for Shannon to fix it or use a different machine.
edit. The ironic thing is the function isn't even used, but the library expects it !
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I am on an older mac, I use a 2012 Mac Pro running on MacOS 10.12 (I cant upgrade due to other software limitations, such as not wanting to pay for Adobe Premiere and Photoshop until the end of time itself as I already own them).
In case it helps here is my Python info:
Python 2.7.10 (default, Feb 7 2017, 00:08:15)
[GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.0.0 (clang-800.0.34)] on darwin
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I am on an older mac, I use a 2012 Mac Pro running on MacOS 10.12 (I cant upgrade due to other software limitations, such as not wanting to pay for Adobe Premiere and Photoshop until the end of time itself as I already own them).
In case it helps here is my Python info:
Python 2.7.10 (default, Feb 7 2017, 00:08:15)
[GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.0.0 (clang-800.0.34)] on darwin
I did that for a while too. I eventually gave in and subscribed, but I hate the subscription model, even if I do like some of the changes to their suite. I did pretty well though, I had CS6 since 2012, or 2013 and finally upgraded this year.
Can't you dual boot into linux or windows on your mac to run the firmware update?
Thanks,
Josh
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Review video is now public:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cBzn5Svuk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=13cBzn5Svuk)
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A suggestion Shannon from my usage experience so far.
In the menu can you please change the highlighting to show the current setting, and use the arrow to indicate the cursor, that way it is possible to look through the menu and be able to see what the current settings are.
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Hi Shannon, can the tweezers be ordered on AliExpress at the moment -- and can they be shipped to Germany at all?
The link given on your shannontweezers.top home page, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004239869204.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004239869204.html), takes me to a message "The page you requested cannot be found -- this item cannot be shipped to Germany". The link to your AliExpress store, https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026 (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026), seems to work; but the store does not offer any products.
Thank you for a quick clarification. Are you out of stock, or are you excluding orders from Germany at this time?
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Hi Shannon, can the tweezers be ordered on AliExpress at the moment -- and can they be shipped to Germany at all?
Thank you for a quick clarification. Are you out of stock, or are you excluding orders from Germany at this time?
we can open these two link without the last comma.
You can try to search "shannon tweezers st42" on aliexpress platform ;)
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I am on an older mac, I use a 2012 Mac Pro running on MacOS 10.12 (I cant upgrade due to other software limitations, such as not wanting to pay for Adobe Premiere and Photoshop until the end of time itself as I already own them).
In case it helps here is my Python info:
Python 2.7.10 (default, Feb 7 2017, 00:08:15)
[GCC 4.2.1 Compatible Apple LLVM 8.0.0 (clang-800.0.34)] on darwin
Thanks Defpom,
we have tried to contact you by email, if you have time, you can use the e-mail attached new version have a try.
We didnot have the dedicated Mac version, so we setup a virtual environment to verify the firmware update program.
Hope it works :palm:
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Review video is now public
Many thanks for your video, it's the first Shannon Tweezers ST42 review video, it's awesome :-+
There is a problem when you did the onboard diode bridge detection.
The root cause is ST42 need to detect the direction of the diodes, so the excitation current is always changing in a period,
If the diode is in parallel with a large capacitor, ST42 can not charge the capacitors to a relatively higher voltage in a short time,
and then ST42 found the voltage between two tips is quite low, so ST42 thinks it's shorted
We will try to use a larger current and longer detection period to make it better for this case.
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we can open these two link without the last comma.
You can try to search "shannon tweezers st42" on aliexpress platform ;)
Thank you for the quick reply, Shannon. I have fixed the links in my post above, where the forum software had included the comma in the link -- sorry about these; don't know how often I have fallen into that trap...
But the problem seems to lie elsewhere. Both links give me the results described above; I do not see the actual product offering. And when searching for "shannon tweezers st42", AliExpress shows me all kinds of (passive) tweezers, but not your product.
It looks to me like you have limited the list of countries where you want to sell/ship the product, when setting things up on the AliExpress site. Hence AliExpress does not show it to me in a search or when looking at your shop. And when I try to open the product page directly, it tells me "does not ship to Germany".
Could you please check whether Germany is included, and add the country in case it is not? Thank you!
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@ebastler
If I try your URL's from the Netherlands I see the offers, both URL's work.
No idea why it doesn't work for you.
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I confirm what ebastler said. If I set Germany as country, the shop disappears, but with the country setting Italy the shop is perfectly visible and I can buy.
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Thank you both for checking, dibro and picburner! Let's hope it is just a simple country setting on AliExpress which Shannon can fix. I'll check back here tomorrow, and will also try the AliExpress offer again.
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This morning I decided to make the review a 2 part as I didn't really go into the accuracy aspect in the first review, so I recorded some more video this morning showing it testing my standard capacitors and I also used it on my Fluke 5450A resistance calibrator.
I will publish the 2nd part next week.
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Thank you both for checking, dibro and picburner! Let's hope it is just a simple country setting on AliExpress which Shannon can fix. I'll check back here tomorrow, and will also try the AliExpress offer again.
I find out the reason, why you cannot access the ST42 on Aliexpress platform.
There is a new policy in Germany, called EPR(extended-producer-responsibility)
Here is the link:
https://www.lizenzero.de/en/blog/extended-producer-responsibility-epr-in-germany-everything-you-need-to-know-now-to-continue-selling-on-amazon-co./ (https://www.lizenzero.de/en/blog/extended-producer-responsibility-epr-in-germany-everything-you-need-to-know-now-to-continue-selling-on-amazon-co./)
https://www.epr-compliance.com/ (https://www.epr-compliance.com/)
After July 1 2022, all the sellers should register the compliance, if he want to sell goods to Germany,
otherwise, the platform will block the goods' information and sales prohibited :palm:
We are now consulting on how to complete the registration, we will reply the result in few days.
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There is a new policy in Germany, called EPR(extended-producer-responsibility)
[...]
After July 1 2022, all the sellers should register the compliance, if he want to sell goods to Germany,
otherwise, the platform will block the goods' information and sales prohibited :palm:
Ouch... Germany, as well as many other European countries, have had regulations in place for years which require the manufacturers of electronic devices, as well as the manufacturerers/distributors of packaging, to join suitable recycling schemes and company registers. But it seems a bit over the top to start enforcing the packaging requirements (but not the electronics requirements?) for international companies which ship directly to end users.
This is Germany's implementation of an EU-wide directive. While the individual countries can choose different ways to translate these directives into national law, it is likely that other European countries will take similar approaches. Seems that France has similar requirements in place already?
So it will make sense for you to find a way to comply. There are probably service providers which can act as your agent and provide registration and waste disposal services, for Germany and whichever other countries implement similar requirements in the future. I guess you would have to include their fees in a higher shipping cost to Germany.
Ahh, but we are saving the world -- from incorrectly disposed packaging for LCR tweezers in this case... ::)
Sorry about the complications!
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I just got my order in from Sweden.
I've had my eye on these tweezers since I first saw this thread and I'm really looking forward to receiving mine!
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Well I just found out about these tweezers today and I've been reading through the thread.
There's definitely a few things that can be improved, from what I'm reading, but seems to work quite well for most tasks.
Fantastic job Shannon. :-+
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Part 2 of the review:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeVnTaNkMsI (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zeVnTaNkMsI)
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Part 2 of the review:
Thanks a lot for the accuracy review video, the performance is very nice.
Except two issue,
1. 1nF test result is around 1%
2. Rdc measurement is not suitable for the large resistance.
And the feeling is like this :palm:
https://youtu.be/6s2UJBFDCoA (https://youtu.be/6s2UJBFDCoA)
To be honest, we cannot repeat the 1nF test accuracy issue in this stage, it’s not easy to get a 0.1% accuracy cap.
But we are serious about the second Rdc measurement issue,
We aimed at ~0.1% accuracy for the AC excitation mode for L/C/R,
So the Rdc accuracy is ignored by general test,
But we think there must be room for optimization, give us some time.
The 1nF cap accuracy measurement issue, could you help us use another accurate LCR to verify the standard capacitor value? We want to confirm this issue, it’s little strange
We have no idea about the cause
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Part 2 of the review:
Thanks a lot for the accuracy review video, the performance is very nice.
Except two issue,
1. 1nF test result is around 1%
2. Rdc measurement is not suitable for the large resistance.
New firmware version is released, which fixed the second RDC issue >:D, here is the link: https://shannontweezers.top/docs/upgrading-firmware/ (https://shannontweezers.top/docs/upgrading-firmware/)
Thanks to TheDefPom’s accuracy review video, we fixed the resistor measurement noise bug in v1.4.2.
Please let us know if you encountered any issue with Shannon Tweezers, we definitely will improve it in short time.
The AUTO mode is also suitable discrete resistor measurement. In fact, AC excitation signal with DFT analysis leads to better noise and accuracy performance since the DC offset in circuit is eliminated compared to DC signal measurement.
The DC resistance measurement is now enabled with both 50Hz and 60Hz notch filter, so the noise introduced via long lead and large resistance can be reduced greatly.
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Received my Shannon Tweezers today. First impression is very good. Firmware updated. :-+
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Where are the latest firmware versions ?
I tried download from the site but I just seem to keep getting the same version for some reason as I did a month ago, with a modified date of 26/5/22, called "fw-update-5.26", the site lists up to 1.4.4 but I don't think the file I am getting is it, as the file names, sizes and dates are identical to what I downloaded some time ago, at the time of 1.4.2, which I am not even sure was right at the time either as these dates are from May, before those updates.
Is it just some random quirk or is my browser not actually getting the latest version downloaded?
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Where are the latest firmware versions ?
I tried download from the site but I just seem to keep getting the same version for some reason as I did a month ago, with a modified date of 26/5/22, called "fw-update-5.26", the site lists up to 1.4.4 but I don't think the file I am getting is it, as the file names, sizes and dates are identical to what I downloaded some time ago, at the time of 1.4.2, which I am not even sure was right at the time either as these dates are from May, before those updates.
Is it just some random quirk or is my browser not actually getting the latest version downloaded?
I believe the updater downloads the latest version at run time. Which is not ideal, but I suspect is an intentional decision for IP protection.
I was thinking of running Wireshark while updating to see what it does...
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In fact, by default the updater updates to the latest firmware version, but as you can see from the help you can also specify a different version (but I haven't tried if this really works).
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A quick note for others in Germany who might be interested in the ST42 tweezers:
Shannon has now signed up with a service provider to comply with the packaging (recycling) requirements, and the tweezers can be shipped to Germany. The direct product link, https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004239869204.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004239869204.html), as well as the Shannon Store link, https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026 (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026), both work for me now. Just ordered my tweezers!
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Where are the latest firmware versions ?
I am not even sure was right at the time either as these dates are from May, before those updates.
Is it just some random quirk or is my browser not actually getting the latest version downloaded?
I believe the updater downloads the latest version at run time. Which is not ideal, but I suspect is an intentional decision for IP protection.
I was thinking of running Wireshark while updating to see what it does...
As kean mentioned, the commandline tool by default downloads the latest firmware from server and push it to device. Please make sure there is internet connectivity before running the tool.
And we can check the firmware version by system->service->version menu :)
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Shannon Tweezers were ordered on July 17 and they arrived here today in SW Florida. Good packaging and the case is sturdy. They work as expected. I will be testing ranges, functions and accuracy ... so far everything looks spot on!
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My tweezers arrived at my local post agent in Sweden earlier today. Here's a slightly longer version of the review I left on Aliexpress:
Shannon's tweezers are the perfect example of what happens when someone looks critically at the products currently on the market, identifies what is wrong with each of them and then sets out to make something better than anything that already exists.
These tweezers are everything that they should be. They are small and light, they fit in your hand perfectly and are truly ergonomic. They offer a large measurement range and are very accurate on all ranges. The display is logical, comprehensive and easy to read. The joystick control also follows a logical approach and I was right at home selecting test frequency, excitation voltage and measurement mode within minutes.
Mechanically, the design and execution is a triumph! Due to the fact that there is virtually no side to side movement when opening and closing the tweezer's jaws, you really can pick up a 0402 sized capacitor and place it down accurately every time. I don't know of any other tweezers which have solved this basic and critical aspect, which is why I have never bought a pair of measuring tweezers before. I'd seen how poor the mechanical aspect was on all the others and knew that I would end up throwing them out of the window when I had the third component jump out of the jaws and onto the floor!
Firmware updates are easy and regular as Shannon continues to improve the firmware based on feedback from customers. Even better, the updater runs on Windows, Mac and Linux, just like it should! The tweezers arrived with the latest version 1.4.4 firmware already installed.
Congratulations Shannon, this is a great product at a fair price and is every bit as good as I expected!
(https://filedn.com/lEDSGUXnO7mp9lWR3BbARrR/Emoticons/approved-stamp.png)
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Accuracy checks are all good. Usability is also good. However, I am seeing some curvature at the probe tips. Photo attached.
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I did buy some replacement tips from Shannon, as I had started to ruined the original ones, but it was nothing like that. The material looks like gold plated steel.
Maybe you got a bad batch that wasn't properly hardened.
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Accuracy checks are all good. Usability is also good. However, I am seeing some curvature at the probe tips. Photo attached.
:palm:
We did produce two batches of tweezer tips,
but the difference between them is that the thickness of the first batch of tweezers remains at 0.2~0.3mm, and the thickness of the second batch is about 0.1mm.
The tips of the first batch of tweezers will be much stronger, but are not as good as a good tweezer when picking up small parts.
There are two reasons, the first is that the thickness is indeed thicker than a good quality tweezers, and the second is that the gold plating is done by electroplating, and the surface of the gold layer is very smooth.
So we changed the tip of the tweezers to be more pointed. You should be the latter batch. Both batches are made of the same material, using high hardness stainless steel and then gold plated.
Before production, we also studied the difference between good tweezer tips and bad tweezer tips, better tweezers, their tweezer arms tend to fit well, not just the tweezer tips touching together, so you will find When over-clamping the ST42's tweezer arms, the tweezer tips will be slightly separated to protect the tweezer tips and prevent the components from falling off.
And you know there is no tweezer tip to complete the action of tilting things. Similarly, if you fall from a table with a height of 1m to a hard ground, the tweezer tip will also be knocked crooked.
As thm_w said, we were more worried about the wear of the gold plating layer, and the surface impedance will be relatively large, even if these errors can be calibrated out, but this problem still exists, which is why we are wondering if there is a better 4-wire structure.
We are sorry about the bent tip of your ST42 tweezers.
And we are a little curious about how the tip of your tweezers is bent.
We want to understand the use case, and then try to optimize it and give users some reminders, Thanks.
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Congratulations Shannon, this is a great product at a fair price and is every bit as good as I expected!
(https://filedn.com/lEDSGUXnO7mp9lWR3BbARrR/Emoticons/approved-stamp.png)
Thank you very much for your support.
You have felt a lot of details that we have designed with heart. This is what really moved us.
Good things can connect everyone together. I believe that most of the time people's experience of beauty can be very close.
What we do is not a cold instrument, we want it to be elegant.
We're really trying to optimize those details that users really care about, trying to make it the best it can be.
Thanks again, without your support, we would not be able to persistently improve this matter
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Accuracy checks are all good. Usability is also good. However, I am seeing some curvature at the probe tips. Photo attached.
:palm:
We did produce two batches of tweezer tips,
but the difference between them is that the thickness of the first batch of tweezers remains at 0.2~0.3mm, and the thickness of the second batch is about 0.1mm.
The tips of the first batch of tweezers will be much stronger, but are not as good as a good tweezer when picking up small parts.
There are two reasons, the first is that the thickness is indeed thicker than a good quality tweezers, and the second is that the gold plating is done by electroplating, and the surface of the gold layer is very smooth.
So we changed the tip of the tweezers to be more pointed. You should be the latter batch. Both batches are made of the same material, using high hardness stainless steel and then gold plated.
Before production, we also studied the difference between good tweezer tips and bad tweezer tips, better tweezers, their tweezer arms tend to fit well, not just the tweezer tips touching together, so you will find When over-clamping the ST42's tweezer arms, the tweezer tips will be slightly separated to protect the tweezer tips and prevent the components from falling off.
And you know there is no tweezer tip to complete the action of tilting things. Similarly, if you fall from a table with a height of 1m to a hard ground, the tweezer tip will also be knocked crooked.
As thm_w said, we were more worried about the wear of the gold plating layer, and the surface impedance will be relatively large, even if these errors can be calibrated out, but this problem still exists, which is why we are wondering if there is a better 4-wire structure.
We are sorry about the bent tip of your ST42 tweezers.
And we are a little curious about how the tip of your tweezers is bent.
We want to understand the use case, and then try to optimize it and give users some reminders, Thanks.
The tips were bent making measurements on printed circuit boards. I don't think I used excessive force? Also, I was not trying to probe through heavy corrosion or solder masks or anything of that nature.
Otherwise, very pleased with your product.
Thanks for responding.
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I was just talking with my spouse wether to buy the LCR Pro1 tweezers when I found this project.
Well, my Shannon tweezers arrived earlier this week ;D It took 18 days from ordering to delivery in Austria, in excellent packaging.
I really like the physical construction. The tips work very well, maybe could be a bit more symmetric/identical and better finished (one a a tiny blemish on the side) but are what I would expect from a good pair of (regular) 15€ tweezers. This is really great!
I played around and collected some feedback/suggestions (see below) but after charging on my MacBook it froze at "charging 100%". I wanted to add to list of suggestions to change the display to "charged" and shutdown after unplugging from the charger but then realized it was completely frozen. I tried all sorts combinations of key presses and plugging in/out, UART, looking for and reset switch and waited about 10 minutes (timeout was set to 60s) to avail. I opened it up and (seeing that the LiPo seemed well protected) shorted the power pins. After turning it back on the calibration was obviously wrong (eg. shortened tips showed -38kOhm, was unable to light the test board LED). A reset to factory cal did not change the problem, neither did uploading the firmware (v1.4.4). When I tried self cal it froze again (at 0%). After another hard reset and leaving it turned off for some time, everything seemed normal again, but then suddenly was out of cal again (same -38kOhm as before) when trying to calibrate it froze again - this time in the open procedure.
After another crowbar reset everything again seemed fine but then the Auto mode showed no primary parameter and the other modes where again wrong. Switching off and waiting solved this. Since then I have been able to run a full calibration process and it did not freeze again (could it be related to high battery voltage?) Now I sometimes get the -38kOhm that don’t go away with calibration (neither full procedure nor factory) but often disappear after switching off (and waiting). So maybe I have a defective unit.
At least once when frozen the unit still reacted to key presses with beeps, so even a soft reset functionality (e.g. holding center for 10s to reset) that could be implemented via a software update would have helped in this case.
Here are my other suggestions/feedback that don’t seem to be related to the specific unit I have:
- Out of range values should be indicated by < or > signs. At least show ">2.38V" instead of "2.39V" in LED mode and "VF >1.17V" instead of "VF 1.17V" in diode mode - so that one immediately sees that is the maximum possible. The same might be done for small or negative values (e.g. "<0.001pF").
- It would be nice to be able to switch it on by touching the tips together (maybe this needs a hardware revision).
- I would like diodes to be included in auto mode (at least when test-voltage is 1.0V).
- It should be called "series" and "parallel" (second one is correct in device menu but still wrong on help sheet).
- Long press short cuts would be nice but of course need thought to get right. My suggestions would be: left -> auto mode, right -> quickset, up -> auto frequency, and maybe: down -> shutdown.
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In my view FWIW today SMD smart tweezers need be offered with fine tips as optional and supplied with more rugged tips for the vast majority of use.
After 15 years of hobby use the original tips in my ST3 tweezers are still in good shape and they have been abused, no doubts about that.
Today now we're down to 0201 they are much too small for a generic do everything tip that must also offer a good service life.
Shannon IMO needs go back to the design bench and draw up at least 2 different size tips and maybe different styles of them too.
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So maybe I have a defective unit.
At least once when frozen the unit still reacted to key presses with beeps, so even a soft reset functionality (e.g. holding center for 10s to reset) that could be implemented via a software update would have helped in this case.
Here are my other suggestions/feedback that don’t seem to be related to the specific unit I have:
- Out of range values should be indicated by < or > signs. At least show ">2.38V" instead of "2.39V" in LED mode and "VF >1.17V" instead of "VF 1.17V" in diode mode - so that one immediately sees that is the maximum possible. The same might be done for small or negative values (e.g. "<0.001pF").
- It would be nice to be able to switch it on by touching the tips together (maybe this needs a hardware revision).
- I would like diodes to be included in auto mode (at least when test-voltage is 1.0V).
- It should be called "series" and "parallel" (second one is correct in device menu but still wrong on help sheet).
- Long press short cuts would be nice but of course need thought to get right. My suggestions would be: left -> auto mode, right -> quickset, up -> auto frequency, and maybe: down -> shutdown.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Let's try to figure out the frozen problem firstly.
Have you try to using screwdriver make the tips more stable?
You can help us observe if the 4 white insulating ring is broken, these white insulating ring protect the tips(test signal) from the ground.
if the screw breaks through the insulating ring, the test will be frozen as you mentioned.
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Let's try to figure out the frozen problem firstly.
Have you try to using screwdriver make the tips more stable?
You can help us observe if the 4 white insulating ring is broken, these white insulating ring protect the tips(test signal) from the ground.
if the screw breaks through the insulating ring, the test will be frozen as you mentioned.
The freezing problem is hard to figure out because it is not easy to reproduce. It did not freeze again after the 3 times I mentioned above. Please note that the first time was while charging and before I performed any calibration procedure.
I have not touched the screws of the tips before. I now unscrewed them and the 4 white rings look a bit deformed but intact. I then screwed them back in tightly and measured resistances of about 20 MOhms (did not think of doing that before unscrewing).
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I continue to be impressed by the Shannon tweezers. My latest discovery is with a 2700 uF capacitor. The ST handles it just fine at 1 kHz. Two other insturments only work when the test frequency is decreased.
I know that lower frequencies are better/required when testing large capacitors, but it is admirable that ST work without changing the test frequency.
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In my view FWIW today SMD smart tweezers need be offered with fine tips as optional and supplied with more rugged tips for the vast majority of use.
After 15 years of hobby use the original tips in my ST3 tweezers are still in good shape and they have been abused, no doubts about that.
Today now we're down to 0201 they are much too small for a generic do everything tip that must also offer a good service life.
Shannon IMO needs go back to the design bench and draw up at least 2 different size tips and maybe different styles of them too.
Its a good idea to have two tip sizes. Maybe a wider flatter end that would fit the full width of say 0603 or 0805.
The issue is how do you get it to pierce any flux or oxide layer, without a sharp point? Machining something would be tough, like the tips of pogo pins: https://www.qatech.com/images/resources/tip-selection/Bead_Bump_Dome.jpg (https://www.qatech.com/images/resources/tip-selection/Bead_Bump_Dome.jpg)
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In my view FWIW today SMD smart tweezers need be offered with fine tips as optional and supplied with more rugged tips for the vast majority of use.
After 15 years of hobby use the original tips in my ST3 tweezers are still in good shape and they have been abused, no doubts about that.
Today now we're down to 0201 they are much too small for a generic do everything tip that must also offer a good service life.
Shannon IMO needs go back to the design bench and draw up at least 2 different size tips and maybe different styles of them too.
Its a good idea to have two tip sizes. Maybe a wider flatter end that would fit the full width of say 0603 or 0805.
The issue is how do you get it to pierce any flux or oxide layer, without a sharp point? Machining something would be tough, like the tips of pogo pins: https://www.qatech.com/images/resources/tip-selection/Bead_Bump_Dome.jpg (https://www.qatech.com/images/resources/tip-selection/Bead_Bump_Dome.jpg)
Simple, by improving the tip design and making them suitably robust.
Canadian Smart Tweezers had this situation solved more than a decade ago and if Shannon wants to compete with premium products and I believe he does then he needs lift his game.
Just looked on their website quickly and didn't spot a listing for just the tip options like I thought there was but did find listings for new tweezers with a selection of tips.
https://smarttweezers.3dcartstores.com/ (https://smarttweezers.3dcartstores.com/)
(https://smarttweezers.3dcartstores.com/thumbnail.asp?file=assets/images/st5s_sets_bhp.jpg&maxx=400&maxy=400)
Edit
Found them, even a whole range of spares for my 15+ yr old ST3:
https://smarttweezers.3dcartstores.com/Replacement-Test-Leads-Straight-PN-STAD-TS_p_21.html (https://smarttweezers.3dcartstores.com/Replacement-Test-Leads-Straight-PN-STAD-TS_p_21.html)
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The tip design looks close to the Smart Tweezers though. Unless the Smart Tweezers specifically call out what steel/material they are using, then its probably not that simple to figure out.
For reference, Shannon tweezers are 0.82mm thick, tapering at 5.5mm from tip, down to about 0.35x0.35mm at the end.
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The tip design looks close to the Smart Tweezers though. Unless the Smart Tweezers specifically call out what steel/material they are using, then its probably not that simple to figure out.
You think ?
If we look at the image from Grandchuck it's very obvious Shannons quality control or core tip design is at fault when with tips that fine used for 'in circuit' testing it's very plain they are just not fit for purpose !
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1568761)
To get the tweezer hinge design as good as it apparently is and overlook the tip design is quite a mistake although not everyone has a set of tweezers for the 15+ years I have and used in the wide range of use I have.
In circuit component testing is a very important part of service work so to capture a good market share they need be able to do all these tasks without batting an eyelid.
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The tip design looks close to the Smart Tweezers though. Unless the Smart Tweezers specifically call out what steel/material they are using, then its probably not that simple to figure out.
You think ?
To get the tweezer hinge design as good as it apparently is and overlook the tip design is quite a mistake although not everyone has a set of tweezers for the 15+ years I have and used in the wide range of use I have.
In circuit component testing is a very important part of service work so to capture a good market share they need be able to do all these tasks without batting an eyelid.
You are all right for the reasons I mentioned earlier.
At the beginning, the thickness of the tweezers tip was 0.3mm, which was similar to the width, but I felt that the strength was enough,
so I tried to adjust the thickness to be smaller. At this time, the thickness reached ~0.1mm.
You know every coin has two sides.
I believe that part of thm_w's hand is 0.3mm thick tweezers, and 0.3mm tweezers tip is fine and strong enough.
We are already arranging production orders for 0.3mm thick tweezer tips, 0.1mm tweezer tips will be phased out in the future, or as an additional option.
More than two years ago, at the beginning of designing the tweezer tip, we tried a lot of materials to balance the conductance and strongness,
and also contacted a big manufacturer specializing in tweezers to get some advice.
Various shapes and types of tweezer tips are necessary, and we will improve the design priority of this part.
Thanks for your suggestions.
Your praise or criticism will be the driving force for our optimization, so your feedback is the most important,
just like at the beginning of this project, you are responsible for the requirements, and we are responsible for the realization. ;)
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Let's try to figure out the frozen problem firstly.
Have you try to using screwdriver make the tips more stable?
You can help us observe if the 4 white insulating ring is broken, these white insulating ring protect the tips(test signal) from the ground.
if the screw breaks through the insulating ring, the test will be frozen as you mentioned.
The freezing problem is hard to figure out because it is not easy to reproduce. It did not freeze again after the 3 times I mentioned above. Please note that the first time was while charging and before I performed any calibration procedure.
Thank you for your reply, I will send you a PM and we will see if there is a better way for us to gather more information.
- Out of range values should be indicated by < or > signs. At least show ">2.38V" instead of "2.39V" in LED mode and "VF >1.17V" instead of "VF 1.17V" in diode mode - so that one immediately sees that is the maximum possible. The same might be done for small or negative values (e.g. "<0.001pF").
Agreed, it's a nice suggestion, the description of result is more accurate
- It would be nice to be able to switch it on by touching the tips together (maybe this needs a hardware revision).
We will consider this function which may need to modify the hardware version.
- I would like diodes to be included in auto mode (at least when test-voltage is 1.0V).
YES, this topic has been mentioned many times, that could be very cool, priority++
- It should be called "series" and "parallel" (second one is correct in device menu but still wrong on help sheet).
Yes, we have checked the spelling of "parallel" in the menu, and you are right
- Long press short cuts would be nice but of course need thought to get right. My suggestions would be: left -> auto mode, right -> quickset, up -> auto frequency, and maybe: down -> shutdown.
Generally speaking, they will automatically shut down for a period of time when they are not used, and then a full charge can be used for a quite long time, and the test is almost a whole day, so shutting down is not a commonly used function, but when you encounter those case you mentioned, the buzzer can still work, but the screen is frozen. Long press to shut down or long press to restart is a very critical way. Otherwise, you need to open them, which is too complicated :palm:
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Can the tweezers also be used to simply measure voltages inside the circuit?
It would be really handy to just be able to measure voltages over SMD parts one-handed, but from the documentation it seems to that a simple voltage measurement is not possible?
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Can the tweezers also be used to simply measure voltages inside the circuit?
It would be really handy to just be able to measure voltages over SMD parts one-handed, but from the documentation it seems to that a simple voltage measurement is not possible?
I wouldn't consider using them for this purpose as its so easy to damage them once the voltage goes over ~5V or so.
You can buy banana to tweezer adapters (https://www.pomonaelectronics.com/products/dmm-test-leads-and-probes/smd-test-tweezers-banana-plugs), and use a regular DMM.
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Can the tweezers also be used to simply measure voltages inside the circuit?
It would be really handy to just be able to measure voltages over SMD parts one-handed, but from the documentation it seems to that a simple voltage measurement is not possible?
I wouldn't consider using them for this purpose as its so easy to damage them once the voltage goes over ~5V or so.
You can buy banana to tweezer adapters (https://www.pomonaelectronics.com/products/dmm-test-leads-and-probes/smd-test-tweezers-banana-plugs), and use a regular DMM.
As thm_w mentioned, voltage measurement by LCR meter is not as simple as you think
LCR meter is focus on precision small voltage measurement
DMM focus on high range voltage measurement
Looks like if we just add a resistor divider for LCR meter, the LCR meter could measure high voltage as well,
But the story is much more complicated, the parallel resistor divider will parallel with DUT as well, that will have impacted on the LCR test accuracy,
And if you want measure high range voltage, the resistor divider need switch gain
That is not easy
The other solution is using mechanical switch to select “voltage” or “LCR” measurement,
The problem is it’s easy for users to destroy the lcr function by high voltage measurement,
I believe every nuts has similar experience, such as using DMM current measure function to measure the voltage :palm:
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I bought a simple tweezer with banana leads for just this purpose.
I would strongly recommend against trying to fit in such a function. Let the product be very good at what it was originally designed to do - and not compromise that for the sake of trying to be all things to all people.
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I would strongly recommend against trying to fit in such a function. Let the product be very good at what it was originally designed to do - and not compromise that for the sake of trying to be all things to all people.
Yet ST3 had a graphing function with a + 8Vp-p max rating some 15+ years ago.
Some might use it but I never have in all them years except to show the feature in a thread a few years back.
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/vintage-miniature-oscilloscopes-how-many-were-there/?action=dlattach;attach=1214426)
So it certainly can be done however if I need take such a measurement out comes the scope, or if just AC or DC, the DMM. Why risk frying a set of SMD tweezers ? :-//
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Ah that's a pitty, but your explanation makes sense.
The banana to tweezer adapters are new to me, they might actually be worth it. Still annyoing to have the cables flapping around and cluttering the bench, but better than nothing ;)
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Ah that's a pitty, but your explanation makes sense.
The banana to tweezer adapters are new to me, they might actually be worth it. Still annyoing to have the cables flapping around and cluttering the bench, but better than nothing ;)
There's heaps of DMM tweezers like these if you go looking:
(https://i.ebayimg.com/thumbs/images/g/h3YAAOSwXXxe7AQu/s-l1600.jpg)
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These seem to be the standard ones, I found them all over the place. But the tips don't seem to be up to a task like probing an 0402 resistor, especially not when it is necessary to pierce through some conformal coating.
I was just playing with the idea to build my own with some nice pointy pogo pins and glue them to some random tweezers...
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Hi @Shannon. I am using your tweezers since Dec 21, 2022 and I find them very useful and comfortable to use, however I often have a problem to make a good contact with tips. I found that unscrewing the tips and cleaning both the main unit contacts and the tips' contacting side with isopropyl helped a lot. Still I have an impression I often need to grip and press firmly to get a reasonable readout. Is this normal?
Otherwise I like the small but very readable screen. IMHO better than larger MS8911. Also I like very gentle but audible mouse-like beeps this unit makes. I keep playing with electronics in the evenings in the quiet and I hate devices doing extra loud beeps for no good reason and yours not only allows turning the beeps off but also changing its level. Kudos!
Obviously the readouts for low resistance components are not super precise and I can obtain much more stable and precise values with dedicated milliohm or battery meters. But it is absolutely enough for checking the components on the PCBs.
Couple of suggestions/questions:
1. Can you detect open-loop OL. At the moment the unit never detects it, but rather show random high +-2-3GOhm values, I assume this is just some kind of noise being amplified. Can you detect this and show OL instead if the variance of the measurement is too high for anything that makes sense?
2. Can you make press and hold instant (without countdown) turn off? (Similar to how you turn on the device) At the moment in v1.4.4 in my unit it does nothing except beeping. I'd love to have a quick way to turn it off. Of course like you said in the previous posts the timeout should work okay and I should not worry about the battery life etc. But I just have a habit and I like turning off things myself ::)
3. Can you make the unit beep once when it is turned off, both manually and with timeout?
Btw. Is IdealTek ST-5 some kind of rebranded ST42? It really looks almost the same, except the UI layout being slightly different and price noticeably higher. ???
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Btw. Is IdealTek ST-5 some kind of rebranded ST42? It really looks almost the same, except the UI layout being slightly different and price noticeably higher. ???
Hmm... I had not come across the IdealTek ST5 tweezers before. But it turns out that Shannon has, well before he designed his own tweezers: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/)
So it seems that the Shannon tweezers are essentially a knock-off of the IdealTek ST5 -- at least as far as the exact form factor, tweezer construction, user interface and functionality are concerned. I would be interested in seeing a comparison of the PCB design; my suspicion is that Shannon took a lot of cues from the ST5 in this respect also. I sure hope that the firmware was independently developed and not blatantly copied.
This sours my perception of the Shannon tweezers. I still like using mine since they work well. But the whole story of "after years of research I found the right way to build these" takes on a different color. Was it really necessary to clone the mechanical design and user interface outright? :(
EDIT: IdealTek actually seems to be a distributor only; their own expertise is in mechanical tweezers. The actual manufacturer appears to be SmartTweezers in the US, which explains the product name too: https://www.smarttweezers.com/st5s/. (https://www.smarttweezers.com/st5s/.)
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Btw. Is IdealTek ST-5 some kind of rebranded ST42? It really looks almost the same, except the UI layout being slightly different and price noticeably higher. ???
Hmm... I had not come across the IdealTek ST5 tweezers before. But it turns out that Shannon has, well before he designed his own tweezers: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/)
So it seems that the Shannon tweezers are essentially a knock-off of the IdealTek ST5 -- at least as far as the exact form factor, tweezer construction, user interface and functionality are concerned. I would be interested in seeing a comparison of the PCB design; my suspicion is that Shannon took a lot of cues from the ST5 in this respect also. I sure hope that the firmware was independently developed and not blatantly copied.
This sours my perception of the Shannon tweezers. I still like using mine since they work well. But the whole story of "after years of research I found the right way to build these" takes on a different color. Was it really necessary to clone the mechanical design and user interface outright? :(
EDIT: IdealTek actually seems to be a distributor only; their own expertise is in mechanical tweezers. The actual manufacturer appears to be SmartTweezers in the US, which explains the product name too: https://www.smarttweezers.com/st5s/. (https://www.smarttweezers.com/st5s/.)
Yes well you do have a perverted view of marketplace competition.
Shannon did his homework and brought his proposal to us for input of which we've had plenty and he has improved on ST5S and offered a better product to us at lower cost. That's what they do in the east in case you have been in a cave for the last few decades.
The NZ $250 I shelled out on a then cheap ST3 in 2007 was after lots of research which then was a steal as conversion from USD at the time was ~$400 for which today you can buy a fine 4ch DSO !
Not only has Shannon given us a good product at an amazing price he's added features the others don't like upgradable firmware as the product evolves.
For a minute lets consider the BOM of smartweezers and the decades we've been ripped off for a product at even half the price might seem pricey.
But Shannon has had a problem with tips that he hasn't really shared his solution with us, those that offered the support and suggestions to design and build a better product than the several others available.
The A brands don't have these tweezer tip issues and Shannon thought it best to go for fine tips for a point of difference but came unstuck with robustness, something my 15 year old ST3 tweezers has no problem with.
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It seems a little unnecessary to copy the mechanical design quite that closely, but agreed - it's great to have an option that isn't the cost of a decent entry-level scope. Responsiveness is also fantastic compared to the other tweezers I've tried (I haven't used the ST5S or any of the other high end ones though).
Also it seems there is already some funny business going on within Canada with Siborg and LCR Research, some pretty similar products from each of them? (not quite as close a match for the mechanical design as is going on here though).
Does anyone know if the accessories (i.e. tips) are compatible between the "smart tweezers" or the LCR Research stuff and shannon's version?
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It seems a little unnecessary to copy the mechanical design quite that closely,.........
Copy ?
It was improved beyond all others for better control of small SMD devices.
You know, those teeny weeny things that you just look at wrong and they are never to be found again.
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Oh, are they significantly better than the ST5x ones that they most closely resemble? Like I said I have not tried the other tweezers of this style, though the ST42s do seem pretty good (they are so much better than the Mastech MS8911s that they're not even in the same league).
In that case I shouldn't have said "mechanical design" if it's really only the industrial design choice that's possibly questionable.
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Yeah well we've already had a similar 'why do DSO's all have the same sort of construction'.
As we all well know they all look similar but are quite different once we look harder.
Form factor means little, it's what's inside that counts. ;)
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Yes well you do have a perverted view [...]
[...]in case you have been in a cave for the last few decades.
Not sure why you see the need for personal attacks here. Do you hold a stake in this as a distributor? Or is this just your usual personal style? I am no longer interested in your opinion, I think.
And if someone could point me to the aspects where the mechanical design was "improved"? Let's call a spade a spade -- as far as the mechanical design and user interface are concerned, this is a plain knock-off of the ST5. Of course that is not illegal, assuming that there are no design or utility patents on those aspects. But it does impact my respect for this "we came up with a much better design than anything that was available before" project.
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EDIT: IdealTek actually seems to be a distributor only; their own expertise is in mechanical tweezers. The actual manufacturer appears to be SmartTweezers in the US, which explains the product name too: https://www.smarttweezers.com/st5s/. (https://www.smarttweezers.com/st5s/.)
Canada. Here are their previous designs: https://www.smarttweezers.org/ (https://www.smarttweezers.org/)
There is also the LCR research: https://www.lcrresearch.com/elite2 (https://www.lcrresearch.com/elite2) with similar designs. Recall there being another one as well..
Regardless, the case is clearly a copy, but the PCB is completely different, if you saw the previous posts in this thread.
Maybe someone can buy the smarttweezer tips and see if they fit the ST42: https://www.smarttweezers.org/smart_tweezers_spare_parts/catalog.html (https://www.smarttweezers.org/smart_tweezers_spare_parts/catalog.html)
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That's weird, I've had my ST42 tweezers since last May, and I haven't had any contact issues with the tips. I've used them plenty on SMT and THT stuff.
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That's weird, I've had my ST42 tweezers since last May, and I haven't had any contact issues with the tips. I've used them plenty on SMT and THT stuff.
A finer tip was produced and it was too easily damaged.
Carefully read the previous page. ;)
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That's weird, I've had my ST42 tweezers since last May, and I haven't had any contact issues with the tips. I've used them plenty on SMT and THT stuff.
A finer tip was produced and it was too easily damaged.
Carefully read the previous page. ;)
Too much effort. At least my tips work. ;) ...also, they're pretty fine to begin with, why would anybody want something tinier? I have no problem testing 0402 with them, and I don't currently have anything smaller to mess with.
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Canada. Here are their previous designs: https://www.smarttweezers.org/ (https://www.smarttweezers.org/)
There is also the LCR research: https://www.lcrresearch.com/elite2 (https://www.lcrresearch.com/elite2) with similar designs. Recall there being another one as well..
Regardless, the case is clearly a copy, but the PCB is completely different, if you saw the previous posts in this thread.
Maybe someone can buy the smarttweezer tips and see if they fit the ST42: https://www.smarttweezers.org/smart_tweezers_spare_parts/catalog.html (https://www.smarttweezers.org/smart_tweezers_spare_parts/catalog.html)
Looking at the spare parts page shows that the inside of the ST5x case is actually quite different to the ST42 (probably explaining the apparently improved tweezer action - sadly I can't compare it as I only have the ST42), which begs the question of why you'd copy the exterior of the case so closely given the rest of the design is mostly unique. Anyway not a concern given I like the product, just curious as to the decision process, as it does invite some "it's just a clone" criticism even when it's not actually the case.
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Looking at the spare parts page shows that the inside of the ST5x case is actually quite different to the ST42 (probably explaining the apparently improved tweezer action - sadly I can't compare it as I only have the ST42), which begs the question of why you'd copy the exterior of the case so closely given the rest of the design is mostly unique. Anyway not a concern given I like the product, just curious as to the decision process, as it does invite some "it's just a clone" criticism even when it's not actually the case.
The answer I would guess is that if a quality case design exists and already is being manufactured, that would make the design process and production much less expensive.
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Still I have an impression I often need to grip and press firmly to get a reasonable readout. Is this normal?
Obviously the readouts for low resistance components are not super precise and I can obtain much more stable and precise values with dedicated milliohm or battery meters. But it is absolutely enough for checking the components on the PCBs.
Couple of suggestions/questions:
1. Can you detect open-loop OL. At the moment the unit never detects it, but rather show random high +-2-3GOhm values, I assume this is just some kind of noise being amplified. Can you detect this and show OL instead if the variance of the measurement is too high for anything that makes sense?
2. Can you make press and hold instant (without countdown) turn off? (Similar to how you turn on the device) At the moment in v1.4.4 in my unit it does nothing except beeping. I'd love to have a quick way to turn it off. Of course like you said in the previous posts the timeout should work okay and I should not worry about the battery life etc. But I just have a habit and I like turning off things myself ::)
3. Can you make the unit beep once when it is turned off, both manually and with timeout?
Btw. Is IdealTek ST-5 some kind of rebranded ST42? It really looks almost the same, except the UI layout being slightly different and price noticeably higher. ???
This thread hasn't been updated in a while, and we are late.
we are still here, and we haven't run away :palm:
Thanks for the information so we can make it better.
“Still I have an impression I often need to grip and press firmly to get a reasonable readout. Is this normal?”
1. It is often necessary to use some force to get the correct result during use. The reason is that the tip of the tweezers is gold-plated in order to keep the surface in good contact, but the pins of the components to be tested or the surface of the solder are prone to insulating flux and oxide layers, so if the results do not meet expectations, try to use some force, so I always Opt for extra pointed multimeter leads, even if they tend to break frequently.
“for low resistance components are not super precise”
2. For the measurement of milliohm impedance, we have not stopped thinking about these problems. A few days ago, we tried to use the tip of the tweezers for four-wire measurement. The user experience is not as good as precise tweezers, but the test results are full of imagination. Image attached.
“Couple of suggestions/questions:”
1. Open-loop OL detection, this suggestion is very good. Compared with it jumping around randomly, an over-range prompt will make people feel more at ease.
2. We have received many requests for a long-press shutdown. There will be an update of the code version recently. This function will definitely be launched. After the new version is released, I will tell you in the forum.
3. There is no problem with the implementation of the shutdown prompt sound, we will try to add one. It is true that when we are busy with other things, it often shuts down automatically with only screen prompts, which is not so comfortable.
“looks almost the same”
It looks similar to ST-5 in appearance, but they are entirely different. In terms of structural design, ST42 will be much more stable. This is a user experience that other tweezers cannot provide. Of course, these experiences cannot be seen directly.
Now almost all mobile phones in the world are like iPhones, but an iPhone is an iPhone.
We are also trying to make an elegant product from the inside out >:D
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Regardless, the case is clearly a copy, but the PCB is completely different, if you saw the previous posts in this thread.
Looking at the spare parts page shows that the inside of the ST5x case is actually quite different to the ST42 (probably explaining the apparently improved tweezer action - sadly I can't compare it as I only have the ST42), which begs the question of why you'd copy the exterior of the case so closely given the rest of the design is mostly unique. Anyway not a concern given I like the product, just curious as to the decision process, as it does invite some "it's just a clone" criticism even when it's not actually the case.
We will find some surprising coincidences in our lives. For example, I often find that the heights of tables are surprisingly similar, and the widths of door frames are also similar. These details often make me feel that there is a mysterious force lurking around us, formulating our plans with some rules ;).
When we design, a big premise is that the structural design must be strong enough, but they are either like real tweezers, two pieces of tweezers arms are welded together, or parts are used to lock the arms of the tweezers together. Then for small batch production, it is difficult for us to avoid manual work, and welding is not so convenient, so we choose the second method, and then the front end of the tweezers looks like ST5S.
A premise of the second half of the design is that there is a mass-produced and reliable screen with a suitable size. Then we found that the price and quantity of the screen can easily meet our needs. We also planned ABS housing for the color screen, but for time reasons, was not implemented. image attached.
But I truly agree with your feeling, cause "If it looks like a duck, swims like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it probably is a duck." :palm:
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Hey, I bought one of these tweezers and I'm very impressed! Of course I had to take it apart ;)
What is the name of this packaging technology with the black epoxy blob, if you don't mind? I've never seen anything like that before. Doesn't look like COB...
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Now you can press and hold joystick in measurement UI to power off the meter, and overload detection is available!
For the power off function, ST42 will beep before turning off and as soon as you release the joystick battery will be disconnected.
As for timeout auto-power-off, in which case the meter is not used for a period of time, it will still show original 5 seconds count down UI. Press the joystick to cancel the countdown.
If the timeout period is not suitable for you, simply change it in settings menu of system->timeout.
Thanks ono on EEVBlog for proposing this optimization!
Enjoy it ;)
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Now you can press and hold joystick in measurement UI to power off the meter, and overload detection is available!
For the power off function, ST42 will beep before turning off and as soon as you release the joystick battery will be disconnected.
As for timeout auto-power-off, in which case the meter is not used for a period of time, it will still show original 5 seconds count down UI. Press the joystick to cancel the countdown.
If the timeout period is not suitable for you, simply change it in settings menu of system->timeout.
Thanks ono on EEVBlog for proposing this optimization!
Enjoy it ;)
Link to new firmware please.
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Link to new firmware please.
I haven't tried the latest version myself yet, but the firmware update tool should find it automatically:
The commandline tool by default downloads the latest firmware from server and push it to device. Please make sure there is internet connectivity before running the tool.
https://shannontweezers.top/docs/upgrading-firmware/
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I ran the update, it went quickly. The new shutoff works FAST. I haven't tested anything else for this version though.
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Update is hanging at ...................
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I have the bin file but I can't see any way to force an offline update.
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Update is hanging at ...................
looks like service is not working, we have restarted the service, and firmware update works well now.
For updating details please refer to the video in firmware update page:
https://shannontweezers.top/docs/upgrading-firmware/#v151-202345
There are few details should be attention,
1. Shutdown ST42
2. push “up” joystick in power off mode and hold
3. connect ST42 to computer with internet
4. Observe the screen, it will display bootloader version, not the Shannon tweezers logo (start display)
and then use the firmware update command, it will works well ;)
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I have the bin file but I can't see any way to force an offline update.
ST42 doesn’t support offline update, the file you download is an update program :palm:
Here is the video of firmware update method.
https://youtu.be/iW8T11KWXq8
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Now you can press and hold joystick in measurement UI to power off the meter, and overload detection is available!
Over load detection will be designed with more details ;D
For those too small value with bad accuracy, it will display <20mohm(e.g)
And too large value out of range, it will display >20Mohm(e.g)
New firmware will come soon
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Thanks Shannon. Works now!
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I just tested OVERLOAD and press and hold to turn off, both work great! Great product, kudos Shannon! :-+ I think your product deserved some good honest review on EEVblog channel. Did you think about contacting Dave and sending them your tweezers for that purpose?
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They are really handy! A recent use: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tek-501-power-supply/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/tek-501-power-supply/)
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ST42 doesn’t support offline update, the file you download is an update program :palm:
Here is the video of firmware update method.
https://youtu.be/iW8T11KWXq8
So not the .exe, but the .bin file it downloaded. Seems you encrypted that though.
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So not the .exe, but the .bin file it downloaded. Seems you encrypted that though.
Online update is a big trend, look at those mobile phone applications,
instruments can also be more intelligent ^-^
We do not provide downloaded bin files, which are relatively difficult to maintain.
And one advantage of management through the server is that it is convenient to track the quality of each st42, which is quite important for quality optimization.
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I ended up ordering one of these yesterday! I'm not likely to be as adept as any other of the folks in this thread, but it looks like it'll come in handy now and then.
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One customer visited this week instantly clicked Buy Now on my recommendation. Another is doing his due diligence but very interested.
Please send commision check/cheque to tautech. :-DD
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I few people have mentioned in this thread that these tweezers are much better than the Mastech MS8911.
They have not said why though.
Apart from the obvious things like the form factor and upgradeable firmware, in terms of the results it displays, what are the main advantages?
I only occasionally want to find the value of SMD capacitors in a circuit.
Given the limitations of making an in-circuit measurement, absolute accuracy is not top priority.
I just need to know what value the cap is likely to be, e.g. 22pF or 47pF or 47nF.
So for my use case, would there be any advantage to buying these over the MS8911?
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Massively more responsive and comfortable to use, plus a whole lot more features. I also have the mastech ones due to recommendations on the forum before these ones came along but I was very disappointed, hence buying Shannon's.
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Hi,
I own a MS8911, bought it only because of the low testvoltage in the hope, it could measure components in a circuit better than it´s cheaper brother.
But that was a huge disappointment until today.. :(
I wonder if the shannon could do it better and if yes, why and how (didn´t read this thread so far, sorry).
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I wonder if the shannon could do it better and if yes, why and how (didn´t read this thread so far, sorry).
Simply, Shannon never used the Mastech design to guide new product development. :P
Instead focussing on what the marketplace leaders featureset and accuracy offered then bettering it.
AFAIK the only hiccup has been with a finer tip design he came up with that plainly wasn't robust enough for general purpose work.
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Shannon's Tweezer website seems to be down.
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His store is still alive:
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000007.1.ac277d11pG7fnB (https://www.aliexpress.com/store/1102064026?spm=a2g0o.detail.1000007.1.ac277d11pG7fnB)
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Simply, Shannon never used the Mastech design to guide new product development.
OK, that answers everything. ;)
Joking aside, how high is the hit rate to detect the exact value of components when they are in a circuit?
Mastech had tried it with a low voltage(0.1V), in order not to bring possible semiconductors to conduct and thus to change the current flow.
If the Shannon can do this better, how could it be done, obviously not just with a low test voltage.
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Simply, Shannon never used the Mastech design to guide new product development.
OK, that answers everything. ;)
Joking aside, how high is the hit rate to detect the exact value of components when they are in a circuit?
Mastech had tried it with a low voltage(0.1V), in order not to bring possible semiconductors to conduct and thus to change the current flow.
If the Shannon can do this better, how could it be done, obviously not just with a low test voltage.
You can select 0.1, 0.5 or 1.0V on the tweezers. Higher voltage can be better for accuracy when out of circuit.
If there is parasitic LCR at 0.1V, there is not a ton you can do about it. Probably techniques exist but I don't think any ones really bothered to research it.
https://www.lcrresearch.com/post/how-to-use-an-lcr-pro1-lcr-meter-for-in-circuit-testing (https://www.lcrresearch.com/post/how-to-use-an-lcr-pro1-lcr-meter-for-in-circuit-testing)
https://www.lcrresearch.com/post/understand-the-capacitance-change-when-a-voltage-is-applied-to-a-capacitor (https://www.lcrresearch.com/post/understand-the-capacitance-change-when-a-voltage-is-applied-to-a-capacitor)
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I wonder if the shannon could do it better and if yes, why and how (didn´t read this thread so far, sorry).
Simply, Shannon never used the Mastech design to guide new product development. :P
Instead focussing on what the marketplace leaders featureset and accuracy offered then bettering it.
AFAIK the only hiccup has been with a finer tip design he came up with that plainly wasn't robust enough for general purpose work.
Thanks tautech for the continued support from the very beginning ;D
Those tweezers that may be bent have been eliminated. Their tip thickness is 0.1~0.2mm.
At present, our tweezers have been processed more carefully, and the thickness is between 0.3~0.4mm.
I believe they are the same as your previous tweezers tips, which can be used for more than 15 years ;)
Another news is that after many blinks, finally a batch of curved tweezers is mass-produced on a small scale, images attached
And few special true four-wire tips have been made
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Hi Shannon,
With your latest firmware the hold mode is not working .
It was fine with the previous version.
In my opinion the product has good potential.
Please continue to improve it but also please test more before releasing an update.
Is there a possibility for getting the previous version?
I saw you have removed the small circuit icons RC, RL, etc from the UI.
Is it to free some room on the display?
There is R and Rdc measurement modes. What is the difference?
There is SelfCalibration, Short, Open. Can you elaborate on what is doing what.
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Hi dpenev
With your latest firmware the hold mode is not working .
Sorry to hear that, we will test the feature and update the firmware ASAP :palm:
Is there a possibility for getting the previous version?
yes, we have preserved the recovery settings.
please try "fw_update.exe comx -v v1.5.0"
I saw you have removed the small circuit icons RC, RL, etc from the UI.
Is it to free some room on the display?
I may not understand what you mean.
RC, RL, etc are represented by circuit symbols, do you want to display it by characters?
There is R and Rdc measurement modes. What is the difference?
R is tested by AC excitation signal, Rdc is tested by DC excitation signal
There is SelfCalibration, Short, Open. Can you elaborate on what is doing what.
simplified explanation
SelfCal is used for the signal chain calibration
Short is used for removing the residual minimum contact resistance error
Open is used for removing the residual cap at open state
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I saw you have removed the small circuit icons RC, RL, etc from the UI.
Is it to free some room on the display?
I may not understand what you mean.
RC, RL, etc are represented by circuit symbols, do you want to display it by characters?
In the v1.5.0 in the UI there are icons like for example:
____
--| |--|___| --
I am just curious why you have decided to remove those icons in the latest firmware.
I guess symbols 'R', 'C' , 'L', '|Z|', etc are defining the measurement mode well enough.
There is R and Rdc measurement modes. What is the difference?
R is tested by AC excitation signal, Rdc is tested by DC excitation signal
OK. What is the level of the DC excitation signal? I have noticed a big difference for a resistor on a PCB
measured with mode R and Rdc.
Why hold mode is not applicable for Rdc?
SelfCal is used for the signal chain calibration
This one is not clear to me. What is signal chain calibration?
Do you suggest "short" done only before small resistors measurement?
"Open" only before small capacitor measurement?
Can you recommend an article or tutorial about using the RLC tweezers for in circuit measurement.
I guess there are recommended approaches of measuring resistors pull up, pull down, op-amp feedbacks, decoupling capacitors, etc.
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Hi dpenev，
Thanks for your feedback, and the hold mode is working with OL feature now, we have updated the firmware to v1.5.2 ;)
I saw you have removed the small circuit icons RC, RL, etc from the UI.
Is it to free some room on the display?
when it displays OL, the mode is uncertain, so the mode is not displayed, and when ST42 detect right components, the mode display will be there.
There is R and Rdc measurement modes. What is the difference?
R is tested by AC excitation signal, Rdc is tested by DC excitation signal
OK. What is the level of the DC excitation signal? I have noticed a big difference for a resistor on a PCB
measured with mode R and Rdc.
Why hold mode is not applicable for Rdc?
we are trying to add hold-on feature to the Rdc test.
SelfCal is used for the signal chain calibration
This one is not clear to me. What is signal chain calibration?
Do you suggest "short" done only before small resistors measurement?
"Open" only before small capacitor measurement?
well, the signal chain can be understood as a ADC.
"short" and "open" cal is not necessary for every time small and large impedance measurement.
I suggest when you found the contact resistance and open cap is not close zero as you want,
you can try to do the "short" and "open" calibration.
Can you recommend an article or tutorial about using the RLC tweezers for in circuit measurement.
I guess there are recommended approaches of measuring resistors pull up, pull down, op-amp feedbacks, decoupling capacitors, etc.
hm...there are too many different circuits and types on the PCB, we may not have enough time to analysis them.
BUT one of the on PCB test recommendations is changing the excitation voltage to 0.1Vpp is good for most case.
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Debating this. The thing holding me back is the OLED screen. Not looking forward to replacing it in a few years.
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Debating this. The thing holding me back is the OLED screen. Not looking forward to replacing it in a few years.
Hi electrolust,
here is the screen spec, don't worry about that ;)
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My own experience with Keysight U1253B OLED DMM is not good.
And see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oled-dot-matrix-display-life/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oled-dot-matrix-display-life/)
I don't trust your screen specs at all. I guess the tweezers have been around for a couple of years now. Do you still have 2021-era ones that still have a good display on them?
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I use these screens in a few places, yes when left on 24/7 they will dim over time.
The tweezers are probably the last thing I'd be worried about though. Its on for a few hours per week. Even if life is only 1,000 hours thats plenty.
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trying to update the firmware but I'm getting:
> fw_update-win.exe com27
INFO:root:Device info:
device_id :14af4eb42faffc3914af4eb42faxxxxx, conv_id:c5722982cb95a7984888707574xxxxx
INFO:root:version info:
bl_version: 0x131, brd_version: 0xb01
INFO:root:frame max data len:31760
INFO:root:app flash starts from: 10000
INFO:root:app flash size: 190.0kB
INFO:root:RAM starts from: 0x20000000
INFO:root:RAM size: 32.0kB
INFO:root:Supported feature: 0x0
INFO:root:iv is c5722982cb95a79848887075742xxxxx
id is 14af4eb42faffc3914af4eb42faxxxxx
INFO:root:request firmware version:latest
connect to server now.
ERROR:root:Error: HTTPConnectionPool(host='43.138.101.61', port=23649): Max retries exceeded with url: / (Caused by ConnectTimeoutError(<urllib3.connection.HTTPConnection object at 0x000001970FE16800>, 'Connection to 43.138.101.61 timed out. (connect timeout=None)'))
No firmware got from server.
is your server down?
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thanks. i'm not worried about on-time. like you said, you'll never reach it. personally i'd be lucky to clock in a few hours per month.
but some displays, like the keysight DMMs, fade even when OFF. this is a known, well reported problem. i think i got 2 years out of mine (hobby use only) before replacing it. this is a known problem for the 1253 and 1273 series. the replacements you can buy are some standard OLED panel (variant of the original, which is out of production or not available in unit qty) and they die also ...
clearly not ALL OLED displays have this problem. phones and TVs last for a long time, for example. and white vs amber (keysight uses amber) could make all the difference as well.
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Interesting, did not know they fade when powered off. 50,000 hours is 6 years though, so at least the manufacturer thinks its ok.. Will see what others say.
Did anyone find the datasheet for that OLED from the keysight? Or was it a custom job.
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trying to update the firmware but I'm getting:
No firmware got from server.
is your server down?
Looks like the server is not stable, please try again later, when you encounter this problem :palm:
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My own experience with Keysight U1253B OLED DMM is not good.
And see https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oled-dot-matrix-display-life/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/oled-dot-matrix-display-life/)
I don't trust your screen specs at all. I guess the tweezers have been around for a couple of years now. Do you still have 2021-era ones that still have a good display on them?
Sure, we have some 2021-era ones, but they lie in the corner for a long time and we rarely get a chance to use them, so I can't see the difference
The good thing is this screen is easy to have ;)
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thanks. i bought a set
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Is the product sold out? I'm only seeing replacement tips in the Aliexpress store...
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Is the product sold out? I'm only seeing replacement tips in the Aliexpress store...
Showing some stock available for each product type here:
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004239869204.html?gatewayAdapt=4itemAdapt (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004239869204.html?gatewayAdapt=4itemAdapt)
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Is the product sold out? I'm only seeing replacement tips in the Aliexpress store...
Hey SilverSolder,
When you order the tweezers, please send us some message on the Aliexpress platform, tell us you are SilverSolder. ;)
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Anybody's been able to update their firmware during the last three days? I recently purchased a set of the Smart Tweezers and found the battery to discharge rather quickly by itself (less than one week) even if powered down, so I thought a firmware update might help. But I keep on getting the same message that @eliocor reported:
trying to update the firmware but I'm getting:
> fw_update-win.exe com27
INFO:root:Device info:
device_id :14af4eb42faffc3914af4eb42faxxxxx, conv_id:c5722982cb95a7984888707574xxxxx
INFO:root:version info:
bl_version: 0x131, brd_version: 0xb01
INFO:root:frame max data len:31760
INFO:root:app flash starts from: 10000
INFO:root:app flash size: 190.0kB
INFO:root:RAM starts from: 0x20000000
INFO:root:RAM size: 32.0kB
INFO:root:Supported feature: 0x0
INFO:root:iv is c5722982cb95a79848887075742xxxxx
id is 14af4eb42faffc3914af4eb42faxxxxx
INFO:root:request firmware version:latest
connect to server now.
ERROR:root:Error: HTTPConnectionPool(host='43.138.101.61', port=23649): Max retries exceeded with url: / (Caused by ConnectTimeoutError(<urllib3.connection.HTTPConnection object at 0x000001970FE16800>, 'Connection to 43.138.101.61 timed out. (connect timeout=None)'))
No firmware got from server.
is your server down?
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Anybody's been able to update their firmware during the last three days? I recently purchased a set of the Smart Tweezers and found the battery to discharge rather quickly by itself (less than one week) even if powered down, so I thought a firmware update might help. But I keep on getting the same message that @eliocor reported:
trying to update the firmware but I'm getting:
is your server down?
Hi TurboTom,
We decided not to put up with the last server provider |O, although there were not too many problems in mainland China, it seems that it is not very friendly to international users.
Last night we moved the server address to Frankfurt, hoping to solve everyone's problems.
Please try it now.
BTW, the problem of fast battery drain, can you private message me the SN number of your tweezers?
And is it possible that the button is accidentally pressed when it is placed?
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@Shannon replied to a PM and indicated a solution for the F/W update problem. Yet, in between I've been able to update my Smart Tweezers the "conventional" way. In future, utilizing their new server, this should be less troublesome I'm sure. Anyway, thanks for the support!
Regarding the mentioned battery discharge issue, I investigated the behaviour of the instrument on a daily base and finally, I'm pretty sure it was my own fault... |O
When not in use, I kept the tweezers in the supplied box while it also contained the folded "quick reference chart". Since the "joystick" button projects from the body of the tweezers, as long as there's only the foam padding opposite to it with the lid of the box closed, everything's fine. But if the relatively stiff paper of the quick reference chart presses against the joystick, it could very well depress it and cause the discharge problem. Investigating the chart more closely, I found traces of a depression right where the joystick would be if the chart is slided towards this edge of the box, so I assume this was actually the case.
From now on, I make sure that the chart is not covering the joystick when I close the box. No further problems observed since... :)
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Del
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@Shannon replied to a PM and indicated a solution for the F/W update problem. Yet, in between I've been able to update my Smart Tweezers the "conventional" way. In future, utilizing their new server, this should be less troublesome I'm sure. Anyway, thanks for the support!
Regarding the mentioned battery discharge issue, I investigated the behaviour of the instrument on a daily base and finally, I'm pretty sure it was my own fault... |O
When not in use, I kept the tweezers in the supplied box while it also contained the folded "quick reference chart". Since the "joystick" button projects from the body of the tweezers, as long as there's only the foam padding opposite to it with the lid of the box closed, everything's fine. But if the relatively stiff paper of the quick reference chart presses against the joystick, it could very well depress it and cause the discharge problem. Investigating the chart more closely, I found traces of a depression right where the joystick would be if the chart is slided towards this edge of the box, so I assume this was actually the case.
From now on, I make sure that the chart is not covering the joystick when I close the box. No further problems observed since... :)
Thanks a lot for your information.
We used to put the "quick reference chart" in the box,
As you mentioned, one of the issues is the Joystick may be pressed when the box is closed,
and the other issue is the box is easy to open accidentally.
For the Fw update, we will move the server from China Main Land to the EUR,
one of the following action is the fw_update program need to be updated.
When we release the new fw_update program, I will inform you all in this thread ;)
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One of the good news is, the new EPR police for EEE in Germany will be executed on July 1, 2023. Environmental protection makes relevant laws and policies more and more perfect.
Suppose German friends follow the early users of Shannon Tweezers. In that case, you may have experienced a situation where you could not find ST42 on Aliexpress, because we got rid of applying for EPR qualification at that time, and then we spent some money to apply for the EPR license last year.
This time we may not be able to afford the new German EPR EEE policy, the cost is about 550 USD.
So friends in Germany, if you are interested in ST42, it is best to place an order before the new policy is implemented. >:D
PS: We are still consulting relevant policies and trying other application methods to solve this problem. For example, our application does not focus on store, but only applies for a certain brand or a certain product.
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A new firmware update program and a new server address have been released! >:D
here is the new program download link: https://github.com/shannontweezers/shannontweezers.github.io/releases/download/2023-5-10/fw-update-2023-5-10.zip
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I wonder if the shannon could do it better and if yes, why and how (didn´t read this thread so far, sorry).
Simply, Shannon never used the Mastech design to guide new product development. :P
Instead focussing on what the marketplace leaders featureset and accuracy offered then bettering it.
AFAIK the only hiccup has been with a finer tip design he came up with that plainly wasn't robust enough for general purpose work.
Thanks tautech for the continued support from the very beginning ;D
But it answers nothing.. ;)
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The diode measurement seems to be broken in the latest version (not sure about the previous versions)
I have measured a diode in circuit with one pin connected only to 30K resistor.
I think this should be an easy case for diode measurements and with regular multimeter I measured it OK.
The tweezers in diode mode reports 0.47V in both directions.
In LED mode the tweezers reports 0.46V@0.18mA in forward direction and 3.08V@0.01mA in reverse which looks OK to me.
Please fix the diode measurements.
Does tweezers hardware support measuring in both forward and reverse directions in a single measurement?
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I love the tweezers, but I also don't trust them for diode measurement. I installed 18 diodes in 2 devices, and a bunch of them turned out to be bad, but tested fine with the tweezers.
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I love the tweezers, but I also don't trust them for diode measurement. I installed 18 diodes in 2 devices, and a bunch of them turned out to be bad, but tested fine with the tweezers.
In which respect were they bad? You can't expect a small battery-powered gadget to test for large reverse voltages or forward currents, and the ST42 does not claim to do such tests.
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Diode testfunction is in general not 100% safe because of the "low" testvoltage in nearly all cases.
Example given, if you have a defective 1N4148 diode which breakdown reverse voltage is 20V instead of 100V, your multimeter/ tweezer won´t find it.
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Diode testfunction is in general not 100% safe because of the "low" testvoltage in nearly all cases.
Example given, if you have a defective 1N4148 diode which breakdown reverse voltage is 20V instead of 100V, your multimeter/ tweezer won´t find it.
That makes sense, but also proves that we shouldn't trust the tweezers alone for diode testing. I made a test rig with a DC source and a 100 ohm resistor to test the diodes after that. No surprise there wasn't any issue after that.
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I don't expect the tweezers to detect high voltage breakage of diodes. What I report looks like pure software issue to me.
Now I don't trust the tweezers for diodes at all.
In some cases for diodes the tweezers report the voltages in both directions which I think is good approach instead of rotating the tweezers. I think they have introduced software issues implementing this or I may be wrong , let's see what Shannon will comment.
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The diode measurement seems to be broken in the latest version (not sure about the previous versions)
The tweezers in diode mode reports 0.47V in both directions.
In LED mode the tweezers reports 0.46V@0.18mA in forward direction and 3.08V@0.01mA in reverse which looks OK to me.
Does tweezers hardware support measuring in both forward and reverse directions in a single measurement?
Ay you said, ST42 support diode direction detection.
I'm curious about the circuit you test, it's a really abnormal phenomenon.
Could you try to test an independent diode, and observe the test result?
If you have a Shannon Test board, that would be easy.
BTW, you may need to pay some attention to the direction of the diode symbol, which is displayed on the screen.
The symbol is not just a "symbol", it has the direction information of the diode.
And there are four test result in diode mode: Forward, Backward, Short, N/A，
at the same time, some voltage information is displayed in these four modes, which could give the user more information to justify the DUT.
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I love the tweezers, but I also don't trust them for diode measurement. I installed 18 diodes in 2 devices, and a bunch of them turned out to be bad, but tested fine with the tweezers.
Hey KungFuJosh,
You know, our rule is, if you can point out the problem or the direction of improvement, and it is reasonable, then we can give you some gifts ;)
So if you encounter this type of problem, please provide us with more details so that we can better optimize the tweezers.
And we can get together to analyze and learn the circuit, that would be interesting.
I think our diode measurements are the same as your experiment, by adding a resistor through a DC source to DUT, and observing the voltage drop.
So the remaining variables are, what V(A) is the DC Voltage(Current) source, what is the value of the series resistor, and is the voltage drop measurement accurate.
As ebastler mentioned, the multiple serial Diode measurement and diode breakdown voltage is an uncommon requirement, and easy to break the circuit on the board.
ST42 supports the detection of the diode direction, which will bring some troubles.
For example, if the diode is connected in parallel with a capacitor, it will be a headache problem. . . :palm:
Perhaps a purely unidirectional diode measurement, like a multimeter, is more appropriate for users.
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I love the tweezers, but I also don't trust them for diode measurement. I installed 18 diodes in 2 devices, and a bunch of them turned out to be bad, but tested fine with the tweezers.
Hey KungFuJosh,
You know, our rule is, if you can point out the problem or the direction of improvement, and it is reasonable, then we can give you some gifts ;)
So if you encounter this type of problem, please provide us with more details so that we can better optimize the tweezers.
And we can get together to analyze and learn the circuit, that would be interesting.
This ^^^^
Here we have a product developer only too willing to work with users to improve his product and this should be valued, highly valued !
Perhaps a purely unidirectional diode measurement, like a multimeter, is more appropriate for users.
Please NO !
Not needing to flip the tweezers to obtain diode forward direction information is valuable and time saving.
Instead ensure user instructions make it very clear how the product should be used and the symbols that could be displayed for the DUT and what they each mean.
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Apologies if this has been covered previously (some quick searches in the thread didn't come up with anything similar), but would it be possible to add a REL/delta/NULL function for the resistance measurement?
I am trying to measure resistance in the milliOhms range and, even after doing a Short calibration, the tweezers are still displaying some 20 or so milliOhms with the probes shorted.
Thanks!
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OK I didn't realize that the diode icon rotates to show the correct diode direction.
So please disregard my previous complain.
My next issue with the diode measurements:
I have transformer and halfwave rectifier with 47uF capacitor at the output.
For DC this is equivalent with an diode and capacitor in parallels.
Normal multimiter shows me properly the forward diode voltage and OL in reverse direction.
Probably the tweezers can detect the capacitive current and based on the change to compensate for it?
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Even my old ST3 doesn't always get diodes correct and sometimes will show a good one as SHORT.
Testing any component 'in circuit' can give incorrect results just like a DMM will.
It's never easy......
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OK I didn't realize that the diode icon rotates to show the correct diode direction.
So please disregard my previous complain.
My next issue with the diode measurements:
I have transformer and halfwave rectifier with 47uF capacitor at the output.
For DC this is equivalent with an diode and capacitor in parallels.
Normal multimiter shows me properly the forward diode voltage and OL in reverse direction.
Probably the tweezers can detect the capacitive current and based on the change to compensate for it?
Take it easy, all of the discussion is for a better understanding of ST42 or the DUT circuit, that's the way to make progress.
For the Diode paralleled with the cap, there is a trick method of ST42 for this test.
The issue is caused by the diode direction auto-detection feature,
we have to set a detection time, and during the detection time, if the constant DC current source of ST42 cannot charge the Cap fully,
there will be a wrong judgment.
So you can use LED mode to do the test, the reason is LED mode support unidirectional test only :palm:,
if you use the LED mode for the diode, the remaining issue is you may need to wait a few moments for the diode with a large cap.
The time is used to charge the cap fully.
We will try to make the value of the current source larger, which may make the test fast, but there are many limitations in design.
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Del
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Apologies if this has been covered previously (some quick searches in the thread didn't come up with anything similar), but would it be possible to add a REL/delta/NULL function for the resistance measurement?
I am trying to measure resistance in the milliOhms range and, even after doing a Short calibration, the tweezers are still displaying some 20 or so milliOhms with the probes shorted.
Thanks!
Hi giosif,
Thanks for your suggestion.
Yes, we have tried to make the short cal result in zero, but we did not have much motivation to finish this optimization.
Cause the 20milliOhms is the limitation of the tips contraction and ST42, and we have discussed one option is to use a "<30milliOhms" to replace the test result,
This way to show the result to users may be more reasonable.
Do you have many test cases that need a smaller range, which can be used for milliOhms measurement?
We are trying to design real four-wire measurement tips, but the user experience is not as good as the normal tips.
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Testing any component 'in circuit' can give incorrect results just like a DMM will.
It's never easy......
In-circuit testing of any components with parts connected in parallel is always associated with a very high probability of getting a big error in the results and disappointment with the tool.
Let's describe this phenomenon in another way, ;)
The reality is that the tools are honest, they get a result according to the circuit theory and the actual DUT circuit,
it's just that the result is not what you expected.
During online measurement, in most cases, it is because we are not familiar enough with the circuit of online testing and the test principle of the tools,
such as ignoring the series-parallel relationship or parasitic parameters.
Instruments are real, circuits and components are real, and our goal is to understand these facts with this real information.
Hahaha, sounds like I'm making a philosophical excuse for the ST42's physical inaccuracies. :-DD
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Del
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For the Diode paralleled with the cap, there is a trick method of ST42 for this test.
The issue is caused by the diode direction auto-detection feature,
we have to set a detection time, and during the detection time, if the constant DC current source of ST42 cannot charge the Cap fully,
there will be a wrong judgment.
An idea:
Tweezers tries to pass certain current and measure voltages across. If the voltage gets exponentially changed you don't have to wait it to settle fully.
By a part of the exponential curve you can extrapolate assuming exponential curve with offset, amplitude and time constant and find out what will be final voltage.
This way you can find the diode direction quickly.
Also I don't think someone will complain if you put on a display "Capacitor - wait" as soon as you at the end provide useful measurement.
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During online measurement, in most cases, it is because we are not familiar enough with the circuit of online testing and the test principle of the tools, such as ignoring the series-parallel relationship or parasitic parameters.
There is such a wide variety of these parasitic parameters and connections that it is impossible to take into account all the nuances. You understand this only with experience, which sometimes comes too late. ;)
No, we should have all learnt about incorrect component measurements with DMM's and take that previous experience forward. Every tool has its limitations and with experience we get to know them.
When something does not measure as we expect we should immediately question the measurement type and the way we are doing it. Like: is the result different with the component removed from the circuit ?
I've not used ST42 but my considerable experience with ST3 is such when an incorrect measurement is displayed it is wise to check it again by selecting a dedicated measurement type and not always believing Auto mode.
That's why the dedicated measurement types are offered. ;)
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ST42 supports the detection of the diode direction, which will bring some troubles.
For example, if the diode is connected in parallel with a capacitor, it will be a headache problem. . . :palm:
Perhaps a purely unidirectional diode measurement, like a multimeter, is more appropriate for users.
I think that's it. Since it autodetects the direction, it can't be connected backwards to test for faulty diodes. I would suggest having two options for diode, 1 that does and 1 that doesn't autodetect the direction. It's not essential to me though, I'm content using a different meter for diodes. I'm very happy with the tweezers otherwise.
My test was a 20VDC power source -> diode (in this case, bat86s) -> 100k resistor. Looking for low voltage drop across the resistor, with over 100mA = fail. The good ones were all tested under 11mA.
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I would suggest having two options for diode, 1 that does and 1 that doesn't autodetect the direction.
isn't that the existing LED mode?
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For the Diode paralleled with the cap, there is a trick method of ST42 for this test.
The issue is caused by the diode direction auto-detection feature,
we have to set a detection time, and during the detection time, if the constant DC current source of ST42 cannot charge the Cap fully,
there will be a wrong judgment.
An idea:
Tweezers tries to pass certain current and measure voltages across. If the voltage gets exponentially changed you don't have to wait it to settle fully.
By a part of the exponential curve you can extrapolate assuming exponential curve with offset, amplitude and time constant and find out what will be final voltage.
This way you can find the diode direction quickly.
Also I don't think someone will complain if you put on a display "Capacitor - wait" as soon as you at the end provide useful measurement.
display "Capacitor - wait" is a good function, and we can have a try.
And if you try to use LED mode to test the diode paralleled with the cap, you can observe the voltage in real-time,
the voltage is increasing "linear" in the range, that's interesting as well.
ST42 uses a constant current source to do the diode test, so if we want to analyze the cap load, we can use the linearity increasing voltage to get the cap value.
But we still cannot get the diode forward voltage, until the cap is charged to the forward voltage(sorry for the bad use of fully charged in previous comments)
We have considered some fancy ways to do the test,
Such as if the voltage of the diode test is continuously increasing or decreasing, we can assume there is a cap or inductor paralleled with the diode.
So the circuit model will be more complicated, but we can still get a forward voltage.
and then ST42 can switch to L/C/R test mode, and get the paralleled cap or inductor value,
the last thing is to show the circuit model and the value to the user.
In other words, ST42 can detect Diode/L/C/R and their serial/parallel relationships in DIODE test mode(Maybe).
Is it too complicated for users? sounds like this method is easy to go wrong :palm:
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In-circuit testing is always going to have potential pitfalls. Trying to accomodate various possiblities might create more confusion.
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Del
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Yes, we have tried to make the short cal result in zero, but we did not have much motivation to finish this optimization.
Cause the 20milliOhms is the limitation of the tips contraction and ST42, and we have discussed one option is to use a "<30milliOhms" to replace the test result,
This way to show the result to users may be more reasonable.
Do you have many test cases that need a smaller range, which can be used for milliOhms measurement?
We are trying to design real four-wire measurement tips, but the user experience is not as good as the normal tips.
Thanks for the quick reply!
WRT your question, I don't have many cases, actually.
This was a question in case other people may have been looking for this functionality as well and/or it was something relatively straightforward to implement.
Looks like it's neither of those, so not a problem for me if it doesn't happen.
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A low-ohm measurement could maybe use a higher current? - so the algorithm starts with the low default current, and then tries e.g. a 10x higher current for a short time to make a low ohms reading, if it determines that it is dealing with a low resistance?
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In-circuit testing is always going to have potential pitfalls. Trying to accomodate various possiblities might create more confusion.
It sounds like what we expect from an instrument is to be simple and correct, and incorrect results can cause more trouble.
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A low-ohm measurement could maybe use a higher current? - so the algorithm starts with the low default current, and then tries e.g. a 10x higher current for a short time to make a low ohms reading, if it determines that it is dealing with a low resistance?
Yes. we can use higher current for low-ohm testing, but it's hard to implement in practice.
For example, there will be a resistor serial in the output driver and DUT, otherwise the output driver is easy to be unstable.
And this serial resistor is much larger than mili-ohm, so the driver current cannot be too large.
Most of the time, we are willing to using ultra-low noise amplifier to get lower test range.
And the other way is to using true four wire measurement.
These two directions are what we are working towards.
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A low-ohm measurement could maybe use a higher current? - so the algorithm starts with the low default current, and then tries e.g. a 10x higher current for a short time to make a low ohms reading, if it determines that it is dealing with a low resistance?
Yes. we can use higher current for low-ohm testing, but it's hard to implement in practice.
For example, there will be a resistor serial in the output driver and DUT, otherwise the output driver is easy to be unstable.
And this serial resistor is much larger than mili-ohm, so the driver current cannot be too large.
Most of the time, we are willing to using ultra-low noise amplifier to get lower test range.
And the other way is to using true four wire measurement.
These two directions are what we are working towards.
I guess it may be difficult to design a low/high switchable current output stage that maintains accuracy (doesn't interfere with the low current measurements)?
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Del
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Del
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I think you should read:
WITHIN the specified margin of error
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Del
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Show me this line in the specification document I showed above in the photo? ;)
Why are you now sharing the flyer of a competing device, the Advance Devices smart tweezers?
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Del
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@indman:
and....?
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ebastler,because I see that the measuring range of both devices is amazingly the same, don't you think?
And what's so secret about this ST5C flyer? It can't be shown here?
No, there is no secret. But you are causing confusion by showing it, when you proclaim to show test results for the Shannon tweezers.
Speaking if which -- do you have any actual test results, maybe even performance problems? Or are your posts above all you wanted to share?
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Del
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I just find you behavior rather bizarre....
Do not feed the troll....
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Del
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So far all I have read from you is nitpicking: There is a rough edge on the plastic; there is a black line missing on the product flyer; one can actually measure over a wider range than the guaranteed range. It's not that I "don't like" your findings -- it's just that I couldn't care less.
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What samples (precision, stability, traceability, ...) are you using to test the tweezers?
With what other device are you making the comparisons?
My tests/comparisons were made using a DER EE DE-5000, 2x Racal Dana 9343M and a TF2700 Bridge and I'm rather happy of my ST-42, especially for the technical discussion I had (outside this forum) with Shannon and his responsiveness (on this forum) in correcting the problems found in the firmware.
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Del
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Personally, I've only had my Shannon ST-42 tweezers for a little over a year now. In that time, I've found them to be accurate and reliable. I reported a number of bugs, and Shannon corrected everything with new firmware (I was an early adopter). As others have also done. It's a solid product, with excellent support, at a price point significantly lower than the competitors. I don't understand the need to troll in here at all.
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I have ET432 LCR meter and I used to have Mastech MS8911 LCR tweezers that I have sold, and I did not observe any significant deviations measuring wide range of L C R components, except that the tip and measurement path resistance may wary slightly depending how you grab DUT. Given the price point, direct contact to the lead engineer, SW updates, I don't think there's any better (bang for the buck) device on the market. I am not sure if there's anything even close to ST in the similar price and form factor.
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Been following this project for a while and I love how well designed this is.
I finally ordered one, can't wait to have it here and test it!
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Shannon convinced me to get a set.....
It arrived sporting v1.4.4 FW that needs upgrading to v1.5.3 before I do some checks against my now aged ST3 and fully report my impressions.
Could any of you fine owners help guide this non-programmer distributor with the CMD syntax as it's very difficult to see in the FW update video. |O
Using W10 and have downloaded the update and can get the tweezers into FW install mode which after a while times out and returns to default measure mode.
I see the bit about needing to be in Device manager to set the install path and I'll play with this more to find the port. Also tried to mimic the video by placing the install exe onto the Desktop.
Please can I have some little guidance ?
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@tautech try it this way...
extract the latest fw-update to a folder.
connect the Tweezers in Firmware update mode
open a command box in that folder.
type devmgmt.msc ro start the devices manager
In de device manager open the Ports (COM & LPT) section
There should be a USB-SERIAL CH340(COMx) line (where COMx is something like COM3 or COM6)
Now in the command box use: fw_update-win.exe COMx to start the firmware update (substitute COMx with the correct COM port)
Hope this helps
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Please can I have some little guidance ?
Device Manager:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1811389;image)
Find your port as mentioned above, then go to your firmware update folder and run the command with the com port info.
It might look slightly different whether you use powershell or command prompt, but it works either way.
Command Prompt:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1811401;image)
Power Shell:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1811395;image)
If that's not big enough for ya, I can zoom the text in more. 😉😉
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Please can I have some little guidance ?
Device Manager:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1811389;image)
Find your port as mentioned above, then go to your firmware update folder and run the command with the com port info.
It might look slightly different whether you use powershell or command prompt, but it works either way.
Command Prompt:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1811401;image)
Power Shell:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1811395;image)
If that's not big enough for ya, I can zoom the text in more. 😉😉
Perfect ! :clap:
Many thanks.
The exact syntax was what I needed. :-+
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Any way to make the firmware update app run on Win 7?
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Any way to make the firmware update app run on Win 7?
What happens when you try?
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Any way to make the firmware update app run on Win 7?
What happens when you try?
I can't run the application, it complains about a missing DLL.
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Any way to make the firmware update app run on Win 7?
What happens when you try?
I can't run the application, it complains about a missing DLL.
It would be helpful if you could provide a screenshot showing which DLL.
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One little new suggestion to Shannon. Can we please please show [A] OL. in auto-mode, instead C OL. Otherwise there no way to tell if we are in manual C or auto A when not attached to DUT. Thank you!
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One little new suggestion to Shannon. Can we please please show [A] OL. in auto-mode, instead C OL. Otherwise there no way to tell if we are in manual C or auto A when not attached to DUT. Thank you!
+1 to this suggestion
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Please can I have some little guidance ?
Device Manager:
Find your port as mentioned above, then go to your firmware update folder and run the command with the com port info.
It might look slightly different whether you use powershell or command prompt, but it works either way.
Command Prompt:
Power Shell:
If that's not big enough for ya, I can zoom the text in more. 😉😉
Hi KungFuJosh,
Thank you so much! Compared with our video, it is really much clearer.
We are trying to update the video to a higher resolution, I always thought that our video was clear, but my network has a problem,
which caused the displayed resolution to be insufficient, and I found out that the highest resolution is 480, too poor :palm:
Can we put these pictures you provided on our official website, it will be of great help to our users >:D
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Can we put these pictures you provided on our official website, it will be of great help to our users >:D
You have my permission. 🙂
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Any way to make the firmware update app run on Win 7?
What happens when you try?
I can't run the application, it complains about a missing DLL.
It would be helpful if you could provide a screenshot showing which DLL.
Sure, here is what I am seeing:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1813987;image)
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Sure, here is what I am seeing:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1813987;image)
You have a few options to fix that.
You can try the system file checker tool: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/use-the-system-file-checker-tool-to-repair-missing-or-corrupted-system-files-79aa86cb-ca52-166a-92a3-966e85d4094e (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/use-the-system-file-checker-tool-to-repair-missing-or-corrupted-system-files-79aa86cb-ca52-166a-92a3-966e85d4094e)
One guess is that it might be related to Visual C++, which you can get here: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/latest-supported-vc-redist?view=msvc-170 (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/latest-supported-vc-redist?view=msvc-170)
This guy's options might work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ2XAmGDLmU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ2XAmGDLmU)
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One guess is that it might be related to Visual C++, which you can get here: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/latest-supported-vc-redist?view=msvc-170 (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/latest-supported-vc-redist?view=msvc-170)
I would add that most likely the libraries need to be installed for x32 and not for x64. Even if your operating system is x64.
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Sure, here is what I am seeing:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1813987;image)
You have a few options to fix that.
You can try the system file checker tool: https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/use-the-system-file-checker-tool-to-repair-missing-or-corrupted-system-files-79aa86cb-ca52-166a-92a3-966e85d4094e (https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/topic/use-the-system-file-checker-tool-to-repair-missing-or-corrupted-system-files-79aa86cb-ca52-166a-92a3-966e85d4094e)
One guess is that it might be related to Visual C++, which you can get here: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/latest-supported-vc-redist?view=msvc-170 (https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/cpp/windows/latest-supported-vc-redist?view=msvc-170)
This guy's options might work: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ2XAmGDLmU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQ2XAmGDLmU)
That helped, but now there is a different problem!
Error loading Python DLL 'C:\......\_MEI2411802\python311.dll'.
FormatMessageW: The parameter is incorrect.
LoadLibrary: PyInstaller: FormatMessageW failed.
Is the updater using Python?
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That helped, but now there is a different problem!
Error loading Python DLL 'C:\......\_MEI2411802\python311.dll'.
FormatMessageW: The parameter is incorrect.
LoadLibrary: PyInstaller: FormatMessageW failed.
Is the updater using Python?
Try installing the Visual C++ stuff.
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I am having a strange behavior of my tweezers battery/charging. I have not been using it for few weeks and today I tried to use it.
Each time I was trying to switch it on it says low battery and switches off automatically after 5 seconds.
So far so good.
I took the original usb cable and connected the tweezers to my computer. Immediately it said VBUS 5.05V and battery 100%.
I have charged it about 1 hour but still after switching off and then switching on I got this low battery indication and tweezers auto switches off.
While connected to my PC I was able to measure the battery (System/Service/Battery) and it was around 2300mV.
I kept the tweezers connected for 10 hours. Now if I switch it off and on again it does not shutdown automatically but my battery indication is empty (at around 20%).
(System/Service/Battery) gives 3655mV now if tweezers is not connected to my PC and 3810mV if tweezers is connected to the PC
Shannon does this behavior normal? I think it is my second charging.
What is the typical charging time?
I am on the latest firmware
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Something definitely not OK.
After another 5 hours charging now it says low battery again and shutdowns itself.
Looks like bad battery/charging testing procedure.
Any advice ?
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Something definitely not OK.
After another 5 hours charging now it says low battery again and shutdowns itself.
Looks like bad battery/charging testing procedure.
Any advice ?
I would try a different charging cable just to rule out the cable, though it does sound like something is wrong with the device itself. You should also try reflashing the latest firmware.
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Something definitely not OK.
After another 5 hours charging now it says low battery again and shutdowns itself.
Looks like bad battery/charging testing procedure.
Any advice ?
First of all, I apologize for the inconvenience caused to you.
It seems that the battery is suspected to be over-discharged. This is the first time we have encountered this problem, so the rule is that we will help you solve the problem and give some gifts.
Can you tell us the SN number of your tweezers through PM?
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Del
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A semiconductor doesn't look at the RMS, it conducts based on the threshold voltage, so Vpp is the correct one to reference, the Vpp values look fine to me, as the 0.1Vpp will avoid most in circuit semiconductor thresholds, the 0.5Vpp will trigger some devices, and the 1Vpp will trigger some more.
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Del
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Why would I need to?
A semiconductor turns on at a specified voltage threshold, they aren't averaging the Vpp to turn it into RMS, they are reacting to the actual potential difference between two points, and a Vpp is the Min and Max of the voltage, the difference between those levels is the voltage that a semiconductor will react to.
In some cases it could be the peak voltage rather than peak to peak, it really depends on the circuit in use, either way it isn't RMS.
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Del
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I do not say they are wrong ?
I'm saying your understanding of its meaning is wrong.
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Del
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There is your mistake, you are assuming it is referencing a silicon device, it could be a schottky of FET based device, like I said it is your understanding that is wrong.
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What am I missing?
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You can not answer them, I'm no longer interested in your opinion.
In this thread you have interacted with four different users so far (today, and in your earlier attempt a couple of weeks ago). It seems that none of us met your high standards. Maybe you should just give up on posting here?
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ebastler, it's not up to you to decide. Do you have anything to say on the merits of the issue?
Sure, I did not intend to decide, but give you advice.
I won't comment on the "issue" you perceive.
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Do you have anything to say on the merits of the issue?
Please pardon my ignorance, but can you explain what you consider an issue?
So far, from what I can see, you've described two manufacturers as stating different specs for their respective tweezers. Or rather, the same specs 2 different ways. I don't see why that's an issue, as you can determine which device suits your testing needs (as it really comes down to semantics - Vpp vs Vrms - both values can be measured for both devices). I don't have the other device, but my ST-42 lives up to the stated specs (see attached). The ST-42 has also performed very well when compared with significantly more expensive LCR meters (including the TH2830).
So what's the issue exactly?
Thanks,
Josh
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Once again I will try to explain, although the meaning of the question (and not the problem) in terms of the level of the ST-42 test signal was clear from my previous message.
Test levels signal ST-42 - 0.1Vpp(0.033Vrms),0.5Vpp(0.18Vrms),1.0Vpp(0.35Vrms).
Test levels signal LCRPro1 - 0.56Vpp(0.2Vrms),1.4Vpp(0.5Vrms),2.8Vpp(1.0Vrms).
Do you see the difference in the levels of the signal or are they the same for you?
For what reasons the manufacturer LCRPro1 chose these signal levels, I showed in a quote from his manual.
Do you understand this quote in English?
Now the question is - for what criteria and reasons did Shannon choose the test signal level for ST-42? Do you understand this question?
Clearly only @Shannon can answer that question. I still don't see why you're making such a big deal about it. Let me state this again clearly, and see if it makes sense:
Two manufacturers created two different products, at two different price points. Both of them stated their specs. One of them costs ~$100, and the other costs more than 3 times as much. Are you expecting their features to be identical? Do you expect their manufacturers to share the same opinions?
While we're at it, I guess you could email Sourcetronic or Tonghui and ask why they bothered to make the $2000 2832 model LCR have testing as low as 20mVrms as an option?
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Funny question. Why can't a product costing ~$100 have the same characteristics as a product costing ~$300? Moreover, it is quite easy to do for the author of the goods.
That's a funnier question. Why doesn't my $100 tweezers have all the characteristics of my $2000 LCR Meter?
As I mentioned, the ST-42 works exceptionally well, and not just for the price either. I'm happy with its performance.
You should wait for @Shannon to answer what their opinion is on the matter. It's a well thought out device, I'm sure they have a reason.
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Indman you certainly do seem to be a troll here, I’ve explained in more than one way, just because you refuse to listen doesn’t make any of us wrong.
I’m not wasting any more of my time with you,
A moderator needs to kick you out because the only thing you seem to be doing is annoying everyone.
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As I mentioned, the ST-42 works exceptionally well, and not just for the price either. I'm happy with its performance.
I completely agree with you on this! And I like the way the ST-42 works. But if I see that the product can be improved in terms of performance and correct some errors that are found during operation, then why not?
Sure, Shannon has been great about correcting errors and improving performance. However, you haven't shown any errors or performance issues. You've only shown that another product has a different opinion.
Do you have any examples showing errors related to this? If you report a bug or some kind of error, then that would be easier to work with than two different arbitrary sets of specs without a specific goal.
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Actually I am now also curious why Shannon decided to use Vpp instead of Vrms. Why? Because first I also did not pay attention that it is Vpp, and I thought/assumed it is Vrms as everywhere else!
I checked devices that I own or owned, and also some well known other models and they all use Vrms levels - 4284A, U1732C, DE-5000, UT622, ET432, MS8911 and finally ST5S.
One can argue that Vpp is easier to tell whether the signal will activate logic and get through diodes, assuming Vf<Vpp/2. But on other hand if everyone uses Vrms, it would be much much safer to use and display Vrms. Unless there is a very good reason, I find breaking the conventions pretty weird (irresponsible?) move.
Right now knowing 0.1V is actually 0.1Vpp(0.0353Vrms), this level seems to me bit of a quirk/overkill than a useful one. I'd expect 0.1Vrms(0.283Vpp) should be low enough to prevent any semiconductor (Vf>0.142V) to pass the signal, allowing decent and safe in-circuit passive component measurement. But I am still learning - as long as I am alive ^-^
Thoughts? :popcorn:
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I find breaking the conventions pretty weird (irresponsible?) move.
It's our own responsibility to read and understand spec sheets.
Right now knowing 0.1V is actually 0.1Vpp(0.0353Vrms), this level seems to me bit of a quirk/overkill than a useful one. I'd expect 0.1Vrms(0.283Vpp) should be low enough to prevent any semiconductor (Vf>0.142V) to pass the signal, allowing decent and safe in-circuit passive component measurement. But I am still learning - as long as I am alive ^-^
Thoughts? :popcorn:
If I had to guess, I would assume that the lower voltage (ie. Vpp vs Vrms) is to prolong battery life, or work with a lower voltage source or something to that effect. But like I said, I'd prefer to hear what @Shannon's actual opinion is.
Besides that, as I mentioned previously, my 2832 LCR meter goes down as low as 20mVrms. There has to be a reason to have that option. Not that I know what it is. 🤣
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Some logic level FETs will have a Vgs threshold down to 0.4V (SSM3K56FS), maybe less. So the 1Vpp could trigger that, if that even matters.
Don't really see what the concern is about, if I have a few voltage ranges to choose from, its all good.
Besides that, as I mentioned previously, my 2832 LCR meter goes down as low as 20mVrms. There has to be a reason to have that option. Not that I know what it is. 🤣
Scientific experiments maybe:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/5233800
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsanm.1c01326
Can find stuff that runs down to 60mV.
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Hello,
I just picked up in my letter box a Shannon Tweezer (basic model, no leather or golden plated version :palm: ; so far so good, I only charged it up, not tested)
Firmware is => 1.4.4
Question => do we get extra-features / special gifts / any VERY cool extra-stuffs (discount on MXO4 from R&S ? would be cool) by upgrading this 1.4.4 firmware ?
If yes, which one(s) ? ;D
I just ask because I don't feel confident to perform the upgrade... I see I need to use some "commands"... I feel like I'll screw up... ;D
I'm not a newbie in electronics (although sometimes I'm wondering if I know anything about e- ;D )
but the software stuff is really something I find "uninteresting"... and my brain is like "off" when it's about software... only "on" when it's about hardware (sometimes...)
I stop joking => my concern is =>
- I will use the LCRmeter mainly as LCR meter (basic), and 95% as "C" meter
- I don't care about dead fine precision, if firmware upgrade acts on that... simply because I use only SMD capacitor, which a capacitance margin (by manufacturing) of few % to 20% vs nominal capacitance
THks & Rgds
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Hello,
I just picked up in my letter box a Shannon Tweezer (basic model, no leather or golden plated version :palm: ; so far so good, I only charged it up, not tested)
Firmware is => 1.4.4
Question => do we get extra-features / special gifts / any VERY cool extra-stuffs (discount on MXO4 from R&S ? would be cool) by upgrading this 1.4.4 firmware ?
If yes, which one(s) ? ;D
I just ask because I don't feel confident to perform the upgrade... I see I need to use some "commands"... I feel like I'll screw up... ;D
Improvements are listed here:
https://shannontweezers.github.io/docs/upgrading-firmware/
However there's a catch that you need have CH340 drivers installed on your PC to install the firmware....something Shannon has overlooked as many of his customers don't.
This is by no means an authoritative reference but will give you an idea of what's involved:
https://electropeak.com/learn/how-to-install-ch340-driver/
I've not cracked it yet for Win10 Device Manager to identify Shannon's tweezers as a USB CH340 device and assign a Com port to them.
Windows thinking it knows best will assign a generic driver to a USB device and then the fun starts as good luck telling Microsoft you know better. :horse:
Currently I see this as a major/serious failing of the device and something Shannon needs either change or provide detailed and failsafe methods of 100% reliable USB connection.
This is not obviously apparent to Shannon as he needed CH340 drivers right from early development stages whereas until a week ago I never knew what they were.
Maybe the great community here can offer Shannon and some of us unable to upgrade these nice ST42 tweezers with a simple solution.
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I just ask because I don't feel confident to perform the upgrade... I see I need to use some "commands"... I feel like I'll screw up... ;D
You'll be okay. 😉
Hold the joystick in the up position like in the video while you plug in the USB cord: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW8T11KWXq8 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iW8T11KWXq8)
Then follow the easy to read instructions on this post: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4922464/#msg4922464 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4922464/#msg4922464)
I've not cracked it yet for Win10 Device Manager to identify Shannon's tweezers as a USB CH340 device and assign a Com port to them.
I had no issue on Windows 11, so Windows 10 should be easier. 😉 I'm not sure why Windows didn't select the right driver for you, it's usually automatic with this.
Try these instructions: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/how-to-install-ch340-drivers/all (https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/how-to-install-ch340-drivers/all)
My suggestion would be to uninstall whatever incorrect driver Windows tried to install. Then follow the install directions for the CH340.
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I find breaking the conventions pretty weird (irresponsible?) move.
It's our own responsibility to read and understand spec sheets.
Agreed. Everyone should read and understand spec sheets and manuals - my lazy self included. All I want to say here is that displaying 1V for AC signal but meaning 1Vpp seems as great as using m/s for car speedometer. You can put it on spec-sheet but this is still asking for a trouble. This case is absolutely benign, but eventually we get mishaps like NASA's Mars Climate Orbiter. So again I am mostly curious if there was a good reason for Vpp instead of Vrms here, nothing else.
Scientific experiments maybe:
https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/abstract/document/5233800
https://pubs.acs.org/doi/abs/10.1021/acsanm.1c01326
Can find stuff that runs down to 60mV.
Alright, some good reads there. Thanks! This makes ST42 0.1Vpp future proof for some passive components measurements with bilayer graphene tunnel field-effect transistors in circuit >:D
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I've not cracked it yet for Win10 Device Manager to identify Shannon's tweezers as a USB CH340 device and assign a Com port to them.
I had no issue on Windows 11, so Windows 10 should be easier. 😉 I'm not sure why Windows didn't select the right driver for you, it's usually automatic with this.
Try these instructions: https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/how-to-install-ch340-drivers/all (https://learn.sparkfun.com/tutorials/how-to-install-ch340-drivers/all)
My suggestion would be to uninstall whatever incorrect driver Windows tried to install. Then follow the install directions for the CH340.
Respectfully Josh it not need be this hard.
I strongly suspect those that have no problems with a ST42 firmware install already have a CH340 driver install already on their PC, say for instance those that muck with Arduino and such.
For us that have issues we need a simple set of solutions;
1. To remove any incorrect device association our PC has with ST42
2. A recommended driver install package available from Shannons website
3. Simple to follow steps for successful PC connection for firmware updates.
Simple, how simple;
Dad our tweezers have a new FW update available
Good spotting son, download and install it for me please
Until we have such, we won't be marketing ST42 in NZ.
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Simple, how simple;
Dad our tweezers have a new FW update available
Good spotting son, download and install it for me please
I agree that it should be easier, but I was trying to help you out. 😉
I'm not an arduino guy, and have nothing like that. The drivers installed when I plugged in the ST42. Maybe try plugging it in normal first, then after drivers install, try going into firmware update mode.
I assume they'll eventually have a GUI/visual installer for the firmware, but I don't know that obviously. It's a pretty simple thing to have an installer run an exe from a prompt. The larger issue is dealing with security certificates, which can be both expensive and a pain in the ass.
I definitely agree they should have a download link for the appropriate drivers. Even though they should auto install, that doesn't mean they will for everybody. I had similar issues with high-end (i.e. expensive) sound cards that were supposed to auto install their drivers also. I was lucky to get drivers for when that didn't work right. Sometimes, it's Windows fault for not updating some BS registry or something I can't remember. In any case, it definitely helps if the manufacturers keep drivers available.
It's probably also good to keep in mind this is still a fairly young product. Most of the people that received them were probably considered "early birds."
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Simple, how simple;
Dad our tweezers have a new FW update available
Good spotting son, download and install it for me please
I agree that it should be easier, but I was trying to help you out. 😉
I know and it's appreciated however when you try to get a COM port to automatically identify a CH340 device on four, yes 4 W10 PC's and none can you know there is a problem with ST42 that needs much improvement.
I look forward to a simple solution from Shannon. :popcorn:
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when you try to get a COM port to automatically identify a CH340 device on four, yes 4 W10 PC's and none can you know there is a problem with ST42 that needs much improvement.
I look forward to a simple solution from Shannon. :popcorn:
If you do something wrong the same way 4 times, why would you expect different results? 😉
A link on their website with an "install this first" line might be helpful.
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when you try to get a COM port to automatically identify a CH340 device on four, yes 4 W10 PC's and none can you know there is a problem with ST42 that needs much improvement.
I look forward to a simple solution from Shannon. :popcorn:
A link on their website with an "install this first" line might be helpful.
No, that's not enough and late as I guess it was in USA when you typed that post it is obvious you didn't think that through.
Dunno about you but at my bench is only one USB source to charge the ST42 a PC and the instant it's connected W10 says it's not recognised albeit ST42 is not in FW mode.
Shannon needs find a failsafe solution.
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Simple, how simple;
Dad our tweezers have a new FW update available
Good spotting son, download and install it for me please
Yeah, that's how my parents handle computer updates too. ;)
Have you actually tried asking your son? That might work...
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Simple, how simple;
Dad our tweezers have a new FW update available
Good spotting son, download and install it for me please
Yeah, that's how my parents handle computer updates too. ;)
Have you actually tried asking your son? That might work...
:-DD Yeah right. ::)
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No, that's not enough and late as I guess it was in USA when you typed that post it is obvious you didn't think that through.
Dunno about you but at my bench is only one USB source to charge the ST42 a PC and the instant it's connected W10 says it's not recognised albeit ST42 is not in FW mode.
Shannon needs find a failsafe solution.
I disagree, but let me put it this way. My TH2830 LCR (not at all a new product), that costs 10 times the ST42, has a USB driver listed on their website. That USB driver was rejected by Windows, and I had to force install it (good luck if you don't know how to do that). It still doesn't do anything for me yet, but at least it's listed in Device Manager now.
When it comes to firmware, you have to email Tonghui to request firmware, and they ignore all fw requests. They're the absolute worst about communication and support, despite making nice hardware. Sourcetronic has their branded version of the same devices, and significantly better support. You still need to email them to request the firmware, and then figure out how to install it. It's not that bad because there's a USB port on the front panel, but that's obviously not an option here.
So you can spend $2000 on a TH2832, and be ignored by the manufacturer when you want to update your firmware or access it from your PC. If you want the tweezer fixture, that's the Tonghui TH26009B for another $200.
Or you can spend $109 on a nice LCR Tweezers from somebody that is responsive and supportive of their product, despite that it's still in its infancy. You might need to ask somebody for help installing a driver - which should automatically install - but clearly doesn't always. That's more a failing on Windows part than the tweezers, but obviously effects the tweezer support.
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Hi all,
Let's discuss why we use these excitation voltage, we are late |O.
First of all, we need to admit that many capacitance measurements do use 1Vrms as the test standard in the data sheet.
This value looks accurate, but it's not that accurate. Because there is usually a resistor connected in series between the excitation voltage source and the DUT, at this time the real voltage on the capacitor is related to the capacitance value and the series resistance.
Imagine if there is no series resistor, a 1000uF capacitor, superimposed on a 10kHz, 1Vrms signal, the current will be 62.8Arms, which is ridiculous. (If I am wrong, please help me point out). So I think that 1Vrms is not so strict sometimes, Especially for those capacitors whose capacitance is above 1uF.
But the RMS value is more suitable for the expression of energy, and the Q value is the ratio of energy.
One of my impression is that capacitors that require high excitation voltage often do not require high precision. I don’t know if it is accurate. If there is a more correct expression, please correct me.
Another point is that using a higher excitation voltage can obtain a higher signal-to-noise ratio, which is very meaningful for those measurement systems with a large noise floor, in this situation, higher SNR means the measurement can be more accurate, but it is not very meaningful for ST42, the noise floor of ST42 is very low.(you can verify the measurement results of 0.1Vpp, 0.5Vpp and 1Vpp, the difference is very small, higher voltage does not bring higher accuracy).
ST42 is a very small portable device, too high excitation voltage will consume more power consumption.
Another point is that we need more complex circuits (default operating voltage 3.3V) in order to achieve 1Vrms (2.8Vpp), and may introduce high noise(boost type switch power), we think the gain is not very big.
The first impression of ST42 for users is that it is suitable for measuring SMD components, because it is in the form of tweezers. When measuring on PCB, the most noteworthy thing is whether the excitation voltage will cause errors due to excessive excitation. The user's intuitive experience of Vpp must be clearer and more direct than Vrms.
The last question, why do you need 0.1Vpp and 0.5Vpp? I understand that 0.25V is a relatively marginal voltage value. There will be leakage current of some devices at this voltage that will affect the measurement accuracy, and it does not have to be completely turned on. (0.3V for Schottky diode and 0.7V for silicon diode in the book) will affect the measurement. From this point of view, as long as the measurement accuracy is not affected, the smaller the voltage is, the safer it is.
I don't know that if this reply would stop the argument. I suggest that everyone communicate calmly, because only through calm discussions we can discover more details hidden behind ST42 and the valuable content behind them ;)
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I don't know that if this reply would stop the argument. I suggest that everyone communicate calmly, because only through calm discussions we can discover more details hidden behind ST42 and the valuable content behind them ;)
Shannon, many thanks for your excellent answer! 1Vrms with 2.8Vpp indeed would be just a gimmick given ST42 great noise properties.
My humble suggestion is to at least put both Vpp and Vrms on your spec sheet e.g. 1/0.5/0.1Vpp == 0.353/0.177/0.035Vrms with a remark (asterisk) that ST42 AC V levels are expressed in Vpp not Vrms as many other of devices. To me it would be absolutely sufficient, and will assure potential buyers it is not a print error. :-+
If you want to have extremely polished product, you could also have Vpp/Vrms switch in the settings, that could switch to 0.1/0.3/0.5Vrms levels, so metrology obsessed folks can measure ST42 accuracy comparing other devices using exactly same levels. I think 0.1/0.3/0.5Vrms is most common in LCR meters.
Best, Adam.
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No, that's not enough and late as I guess it was in USA when you typed that post it is obvious you didn't think that through.
Dunno about you but at my bench is only one USB source to charge the ST42 a PC and the instant it's connected W10 says it's not recognised albeit ST42 is not in FW mode.
Shannon needs find a failsafe solution.
Or you can spend $109 on a nice LCR Tweezers from somebody that is responsive and supportive of their product, despite that it's still in its infancy. You might need to ask somebody for help installing a driver - which should automatically install - but clearly doesn't always.
That's more a failing on Windows part than the tweezers, but obviously effects the tweezer support.
100%.
Certainly with perseverance I can crack it however the CH340 driver issue is not unique to us.
Defpom had this too with his MAC however he did have a Windows PC that had CH340 drivers already installed and I am to visit this weekend with some gear for a review/teardown :-X and also have him update my ST42.
I mentioned I had tried on 4 W10 PC's, one a very old i3, now a i5 build that was main workstation which died in a lockdown but now repaired :phew:, my current i7, a much more recent build, the family i3, another old build and a very recent i3 build in the hope one of which would have existing drivers that would play nice with a CH340 device.
While Shannon does provide Windows, MAC and Linux firmware obtaining a simple and reliable USB connection to ST42 is the issue without needing to jump through hoops to have it work.
You must know we do 100's of Siglent updates and help worldwide with instrument recovery so no stranger to firmware updates at all.....some of which we have reported personally found bugs, those from members here and feature requests from members and personal feature requests and most of these get into firmware releases for us all to benefit from.
Without being able to update ST42 due to these driver issues there is no possibility I can further assist Shannon and his team with further development of his tweezers that seems to me to be a terrible shame and no doubt others are also in this predicament.
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While Shannon does provide Windows, MAC and Linux firmware obtaining a simple and reliable USB connection to ST42 is the issue without needing to jump through hoops to have it work.
You must know we do 100's of Siglent updates and help worldwide with instrument recovery so no stranger to firmware updates at all.....some of which we have reported personally found bugs, those from members here and feature requests from members and personal feature requests and most of these get into firmware releases for us all to benefit from.
Without being able to update ST42 due to these driver issues there is no possibility I can further assist Shannon and his team with further development of his tweezers that seems to me to be a terrible shame and no doubt others are also in this predicament.
Oh, I totally get your situation. If the driver situation isn't resolved, then you'd be dealing with #s of ST42 updates also for the % of people who have an issue obtaining the correct driver. I have retail management & IT experience, I know both ends of that potential headache.
That's why I think a link to an appropriate driver should hopefully resolve that for those that auto install doesn't work for.
You could try the CH340 installer from this page (I haven't tried it): https://wch-ic.com/products/CH340.html
I would right-click the device in Device Manager and uninstall whatever wrong driver (if any) is currently installed.
I'm trying to break mine, but I can't. I have the ST42 plugged in to my PC (not in upgrade mode) and my computer detects and installs it fine. I tried to uninstall it (multiple times), including deleting the driver files. But if I scan for hardware changes, Windows 11 finds, and correctly installs it again. First it goes to unknown devices, then refreshes again, and is properly installed in com ports.
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You could try the CH340 installer from this page (I haven't tried it): https://sparks.gogo.co.nz/ch340.html (https://sparks.gogo.co.nz/ch340.html)
I'd strongly recommend using the latest driver from the official CH340's manufacturer WCH https://wch-ic.com/products/CH340.html (https://wch-ic.com/products/CH340.html) or https://www.wch.cn/products/CH340.html (https://www.wch.cn/products/CH340.html) for Chinese version. Scroll down to CH341SER.EXE
It looks the latest driver version is 3.8, while 3rd party New Zealand page provides older 3.4. Also safety-wise (malware) I'd still prefer to install driver from official large well-known Chinese manufacturer than from some small 3rd party site in New Zealand that may be dysfunctional, hacked providing infected files.
AFAIK there are countless devices on the market using WCH chips, so I really don't understand why there may be any problem with CH340 drivers in general. I personally don't use Windows. But I use official Mac driver that works absolutely fine in latest macOS https://www.wch.cn/downloads/CH34XSER_MAC_ZIP.html (https://www.wch.cn/downloads/CH34XSER_MAC_ZIP.html)
The only catch is that WCH and many other sites like UNI-T are behind The Great Firewall and often are very slow or even not reachable from the outside depending on the time of the day.
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I'd stronly recommend trying latest driver from official CH340 manufacturer site
Good point, I updated the link in my reply. And to keep things simple, the official Windows driver is attached.
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After visiting Defpom for him to graciously update ST42 from 1.4.4 to the latest FW I can say user experience is much improved. :clap:
Greatest single improvement is for ST42 to now display zero when no component is connected. :phew:
Feature request for discussion and Shannon to consider implementing:
Auto LCR setting.
Capacitor autodetect measurements:
Current default display is with a Rs value which based on many years of ST3 use is more convenient to have a ESR measurement automatically displayed rather than need to select it from deep within the menu.
Please discuss.
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Auto LCR setting.
Move the joystick left and right to change modes, there's already an Auto mode.
Capacitor autodetect measurements:
Current default display is with a Rs value which based on many years of ST3 use is more convenient to have a ESR measurement automatically displayed rather than need to select it from deep within the menu.
Pardon my ignorance, but what's the difference? Rs and ESR will show you the same value. Is there some situation that it doesn't?
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First real use other than mucking around.....
Was gifted 2x 1.5m LED ceiling fixtures, not working.
They use a 75W rated slimline 220VDC smart driver and after after finding its datasheet became aware the driver is likely not the problem and instead the LED panels.
https://resources.tridonic.com/PDB/Ressource/GroupPdf/en/Driver_LC_75W_100%E2%80%93400mA_flexC_lp_EXC_24265.pdf
~100 3V 1W 3535 SMD LED's are in parallel pairs in each fixture and ST42 quickly identified several suspect ones that wouldn't come ON with its 3V LED test.
ST42 was perfect for this :clap: something my old ST3 can't do.
Now to find some 3V 1W 3535 SMD LED's online......
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I received mine the other day. It's certainly a fantastic product!
When testing components outside of a circuit the results are very comparable to my DE-5000. Resistance and inductance values are spot on. Capacitance readings seem always a bit lower, even after calibration, but still close enough. When testing in-circuit the ST42 is unbeatable. Setting the voltage to 0.1V provided reasonable readings for a lot of components that were impossible to read reliably with the DE-5000 (Because as far as I know, the testing voltage for that instrument is 0.5 Vrms, fixed).
I love the diode/LED tester functionality as well.
My only concern so far is the unit has "glitched" twice (see picture). I'm using firmware 1.5.3. Once it glitches, all the menus and modes glitch with the same random white lines, and the only way I've found of "fixing it" is by turning it off and on again, after which it works fine again.
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My only concern so far is the unit has "glitched" twice (see picture).
That's not fun. I would try updating the firmware (even if it's the latest version) just to make sure a bad flash isn't the cause. Otherwise, I'd email Shannon directly if you want a faster response than waiting for a reply here.
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I received mine the other day. It's certainly a fantastic product!
My only concern so far is the unit has "glitched" twice (see picture). I'm using firmware 1.5.3. Once it glitches, all the menus and modes glitch with the same random white lines, and the only way I've found of "fixing it" is by turning it off and on again, after which it works fine again.
Thanks for your feedback.
Does this problem occur when the device is turned on or during use? Is there strong interference in your usage environment?
It seems that the communication of the screen is unstable. We are trying to find a way to make the root cause more obvious, or to recover after the problem occurs. We will try to implement the screen diagnostic function.
give us some time
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Does this problem occur when the device is turned on or during use? Is there strong interference in your usage environment?
It seems that the communication of the screen is unstable. We are trying to find a way to make the root cause more obvious, or to recover after the problem occurs. We will try to implement the screen diagnostic function.
It has only happened during use, never immediately on power on. I don't think I have strong interference here, otherwise I would've detected that already in any of the instruments I have. I truly hope it's not a physical problem (like a bad solder or connection to the screen). If there's anything you want me to try or check let me know.
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I don't think I have strong interference here, otherwise I would've detected that already in any of the instruments I have.
I truly hope it's not a physical problem (like a bad solder or connection to the screen).
Ok, if you rule out the influence of the interfering environment, it's more of a problem with the ST42 itself.
As much as we feared, hopefully it's not a hardware connection problem, if it is, and it's not easy to fix, we'll send you a new ST42 straight away.
It is being considered whether there is a way to detect this error, either during use or during factory testing. Because of its sporadic nature, human inspection is not a reliable method. |O
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It is being considered whether there is a way to detect this error, either during use or during factory testing. Because of its sporadic nature, human inspection is not a reliable method. |O
If the cost of shipping isn't too much, it might benefit you to send a return shipping label so you can troubleshoot directly.
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It is being considered whether there is a way to detect this error, either during use or during factory testing. Because of its sporadic nature, human inspection is not a reliable method. |O
If the cost of shipping isn't too much, it might benefit you to send a return shipping label so you can troubleshoot directly.
Today I turned it on and it gave me a low battery warning immediately, and turned itself off.
I *think* the first time it glitched was during first use, immediately after I got it. When I upgraded the firmware later that day I also charged the device, it so MAYBE the glitches are related to low battery voltage? Maybe you need to improve *when* the tweezers are giving the low battery voltage, because there's a chance that the screen becomes unstable slightly above your threshold voltage.
I am *not* certain of this, though.
EDIT: In the picture I took you can see that according to the device it still had 2 "bars" of battery left when the glitching happened. Now, I didn't use the device more than 10-15 minutes after it glitched last night, so I'm a bit surprised that today the battery was empty. That might also be a clue that it could be a low-battery detection issue, and the screen is just misbehaving when it's nearing low voltage.
I will leave the tweezers charging again, and test for a bit more over the next few days. If it glitches again I'll let you know how close to "low battery" it happened.
Regards
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I'm curious why ST42 have the same casing as Colibri ST5C? Even UI look the same (similar layout and same fonts). Were both devices designed by the same person?
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I'm curious why ST42 have the same casing as Colibri ST5C? Even UI look the same (similar layout and same fonts). Are the both developed by the same person?
Start reading from the start of this thread and it will become clear this is an individual development with help and suggestions from forum members.
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I'm curious why ST42 have the same casing as Colibri ST5C? Even UI look the same (similar layout and same fonts). Are the both developed by the same person?
Start reading from the start of this thread and it will become clear this is an individual development with help and suggestions from forum members.
Even prototype in the first post looks exactly the same as my Colibri so it is hard to believe in separate individual development. I don't blame anyone but I'm curious of that situation. It would be nice if the device developer could put some light on this.
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I'm curious why ST42 have the same casing as Colibri ST5C? Even UI look the same (similar layout and same fonts). Are the both developed by the same person?
Start reading from the start of this thread and it will become clear this is an individual development with help and suggestions from forum members.
Even prototype in the first post looks exactly the same as my Colibri so it is hard to believe in separate individual development. I don't blame anyone but I'm curious of that situation. It would be nice if the device developer could put some light on this.
But is it ?
Get out your calipers please.
Max body measurements in mm
19.5 wide
14.3 thick
63.5 long
150.5 OA.
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But is it ?
Get out your calipers please.
Max body measurements in mm
19.5 wide
14.3 thick
63.5 long
150.5 OA.
These fits the measurements of my ST5C Colibri with 0.1mm tolerance :-O
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Hi xtech,
In this thread I have seen picture of the st42 internals.
Is your device using the same cpu, etc?
Is this only the size and font which is the same?
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It is interesting than even internal mechanical design looks similar but of course ST5C is pretty old model with much less features than ST42. But I'm pretty sure both have same origins like all other smart tweezers: https://www.smarttweezers.com (https://www.smarttweezers.com) https://www.ideal-tek.com (https://www.ideal-tek.com)
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It is interesting than even internal mechanical design looks similar but of course ST5C is pretty old model with much less features than ST42. But I'm pretty sure both have same origins like all other smart tweezers: https://www.smarttweezers.com (https://www.smarttweezers.com) https://www.ideal-tek.com (https://www.ideal-tek.com)
:bullshit:
Oh FFS so all bench meters and DSO's look similar too therefore share a common designer. ::)
This is just where a decade or 2 of development has led the industry.
FYI I've been using SMD tweezers for 15+yrs and from the same factory as your ST5 when that company was known as Bokar International and back then my ST3 wasn't even named such, instead ST-AS Smart Tweezer until the ST5 range came along.
Some spares are still available for my now old ST3:
https://smarttweezers-store.com/collections/st3-accessories (https://smarttweezers-store.com/collections/st3-accessories)
Study of this thread and the SW/FW versions clearly indicate ongoing ST42 improvements by way of FW updates and good luck finding any for the ST5 range.
Now compare pricing and it becomes clear they are similar but different products.
Clearly you have not done the study suggested and are just :horse:
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I think you're being overly defensive (on behalf of another ...) for a very reasonable question.
But I suspect a less-nefarious and more mundane answer: the mechanical components, and the screen, are available on the chinese parts market at very good prices, so it makes sense to design around them. For example, I heard some reports that the new Valve Steamdeck OLED models were made possible by the availability of the OLED screens used in the updated Nintendo Switch that came out about a year ago. The magic of mass manufacturing, and contract manufacturing in china ... if the parts are on the market at competitive prices, better to use them.
And yeah maybe the menu system was "inspired" by the most popular existing example ... kinda like how all late-90s early-2000s desktop OSes copied the windows/icons/pointer model from Apple, who copied it from the Xerox Parc Alto prototype ... it just makes sense, and there are other parts to focus on and differentiate, in this case the precision/accuracy/features/fixes.
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Received mine. Successfully updated on Xubuntu 22.04. HOW-TO for linux newbees like me:
Joystick UP -> Connect
In terminal:
sudo dmesgIf you have this line among the last few..:
...
[ 1324.904988] usb 1-2: usbfs: interface 0 claimed by ch341 while 'brltty' sets config #1
...
...then execute:
sudo apt autoremove brltty
(its common issue for ch341 with brltty, google for more info)
Again:
sudo dmesgReturn:
[ 1851.578108] usb 1-2: New USB device found, idVendor=1a86, idProduct=7523, bcdDevice= 2.64
[ 1851.578121] usb 1-2: New USB device strings: Mfr=0, Product=2, SerialNumber=0
[ 1851.578127] usb 1-2: Product: USB Serial
[ 1851.592687] ch341 1-2:1.0: ch341-uart converter detected
[ 1851.603548] usb 1-2: ch341-uart converter now attached to ttyUSB0Thus port's location is /dev/ttyUSB0
Extract firmware .zip, locate in terminal to 'fw-update-YYYY-MM-DD', execute:
sudo ./fw_update-linux /dev/ttyUSB0
You're done.
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I had not used my Shannon Tweezers for a few weeks, and now find that they no longer measure correctly. When I press two tips together, the displayed resistance is 9 to 10 kOhm (in Auto mode). The displayed value is fluctuating by several 100 Ohm, and depends mildly on the selected measurement frequency and voltage. When set to 10 kHz measurement frequency, approx. 7 nF is read instead.
I have done the SelfCal, Open and Short calibration from the Measure > Calibration menu, but the readings have not changed significantly. Is there anything else I can try?
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I would check for a new firmware, and then manually do the calibration again.
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Thanks. New firmware was available and installed without issues, but unfortunately it did not fix the measurements.
I tried the "open" and "short" calibration again, and also resetting to factory calibration, without getting plausible measurement results. Also had a look inside, did not notice anything untowards, re-seated the FPC connector -- no change.
It looks to me like the tweezers are fried. But I am pretty sure they worked fine when I put them away a few weeks ago, and today all I tried was measuring some loose small caps (fresh out of their tape package). If one were to accidentally apply an external voltage or discharge a cap into the tweezers, what would the exected symptoms be?
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Are you sure the tips are secured properly? If not, that could cause weird measurement issues.
If you applied voltage via a non-discharged cap or something, you could certainly fry the tweezers.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9-PR8D0mdk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p9-PR8D0mdk)
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Are you sure the tips are secured properly? If not, that could cause weird measurement issues.
If you applied voltage via a non-discharged cap or something, you could certainly fry the tweezers.
Yes, I double-checked that everything is tight, both outside and within the enclosure.
I am aware that it is possible to fry the tweezers by applying an external voltage. But, as mentioned, I am not aware of any mishap before I stored them for a few weeks. Hence it would be helpful if someone could describe the typical symptoms, or share other ways to diagnose -- I want to make sure it's not something else I am overlooking.
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I would just email Shannon. I think you'll get a faster response that way.
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I got myself a pair of ST42, during some quick tests with the included calibration board I noticed some oddities with the unit, especially in dealing with small value MLCCs. I wonder if anyone else can confirm this or if this is an issue specific to my unit. The firmware version is 1.5.3.
1. Normally when measuring caps the secondary value shown is Rs, which makes sense, however once measuring values < 1nF the display shows switches to Rp instead.
[attach=1][attach=2][attach=3]
2. The meter does not recognize small value caps in lower frequency modes. Particularly to measure a 10pF MLCC the measurement frequency needs to be at least 1 kHz, for 1pF at least 10 kHz is required.
[attach=4][attach=5][attach=6]
3. The battery charge indicator is off. The unit charges quite quickly up to 100% however, when I unplug it, it almost immediately looses one bar. The problem disappears when I leave it charging for a while longer even after it shows 100% charge status.
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I got myself a pair of ST42, during some quick tests with the included calibration board I noticed some oddities with the unit, especially in dealing with small value MLCCs. I wonder if anyone else can confirm this or if this is an issue specific to my unit. The firmware version is 1.5.3.
Congrats. They are really useful, and better than all the other "low cost" ones that I've tried.
1. Normally when measuring caps the secondary value shown is Rs, which makes sense, however once measuring values < 1nF the display shows switches to Rp instead.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
This is quite normal operation for measuring low value capacitance.
From a Hioki document on using LCR meters https://www.hioki.com/sg-en/learning/usage/lcr-meters_2.html: (https://www.hioki.com/sg-en/learning/usage/lcr-meters_2.html:)
Generally speaking, series equivalent circuit mode is used when measuring low-impedance elements (with an impedance of approximately 100Ω or less) such as high-capacity capacitors and low inductances, while parallel equivalent circuit mode is used when measuring high-impedance elements (with an impedance of approximately 10 kΩ or greater) such as low-capacitance capacitors and high-inductances.
As with any test equipment, it is quite important to get an understanding of how the measurements are made. LCR meters are somewhat trickier to understand than a DMM, so it is well worth reading up some of the documents that cover LCR theory of operation. e.g. https://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/application_notes/030122%20IET%20LCR%20PRIMER%201st%20Edition.pdf (https://www.ietlabs.com/pdf/application_notes/030122%20IET%20LCR%20PRIMER%201st%20Edition.pdf)
2. The meter does not recognize small value caps in lower frequency modes. Particularly to measure a 10pF MLCC the measurement frequency needs to be at least 1 kHz, for 1pF at least 10 kHz is required.
(Attachment Link) (Attachment Link) (Attachment Link)
Completely normal. Measurement of low value capacitance requires a higher frequency, typically 1kHz or more. Similarly measuring a high value capacitance will require a lower frequency.
A good discussion on this topic is here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/lrc-meter-different-readings-at-different-frequencies-why/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/lrc-meter-different-readings-at-different-frequencies-why/)
3. The battery charge indicator is off. The unit charges quite quickly up to 100% however, when I unplug it, it almost immediately looses one bar. The problem disappears when I leave it charging for a while longer even after it shows 100% charge status.
Again, quite normal and although I don't recall seeing this myself on my ST42, I've certainly seen it in my own designs. I expect that the battery capacity display is based on a simple voltage reading which is only a rough guide to remaining capacity. As soon as you unplug the charging power the battery voltage will drop somewhat. To get better battery capacity display you need a fuel gauge IC which adds cost and takes up space, and really would add little value overall.
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Thank you Kean,
I have no other "low cost" LCR meter at hand for comparison, but the ST42 seems pretty handy for measuring small SMD components, particularly when they are in circuit. Also thanks for the links to the Hioki and ietlabs documents. I just took a quick peak and will read them thoroughly during the holidays. Unfortunately the ST42 has a *very* bare-bones manual. It would be nice to have a more detailed reference of the devices capabilities for certain measurement conditions.
W.r.t. the meter displaying Rp instead of Rs I'm not so sure if that makes sense. The meter auto-detects that the DUT is a capacitor (if the proper frequency is selected), in this case I almost always want to know Rs not Rp. So I think it should keep Rs the default for caps unless manually configured otherwise.
I think an additional IC for battery level monitoring is probably not needed. Maybe the full-charge voltage level should be set a bit higher. Alternatively the firmware could wait for a fixed amount of time (maybe 30-60 minutes or so) at the "fully charged voltage level" before actually indicating full charge on the UI. Initially I suspected a faulty battery until I realized that the UI shows 100% quite while before the battery is actually fully charged.
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Another good reference on the LCR measurements is the Agilent/Keysight Impedance Measurement Handbook, mentioned in the above linked thread.
The official download link is https://www.keysight.com/au/en/assets/7018-06840/application-notes/5950-3000.pdf (https://www.keysight.com/au/en/assets/7018-06840/application-notes/5950-3000.pdf) but that will require you to provide an email address. A Google search on the document number will find other download sources.
I don't have my Shannon Tweezers handy, but I am pretty sure the menu allows you to change measurement model from Auto, to Serial or Parallel. The auto mode is recommended and you'll better understand why if you study the linked documents.
Do some back of the envelope calculations of the parts you are measuring at the measurement frequencies. I am no expert but as I understand it, the parallel model is more appropriate unless you are measuring these low value capacitors at or near their SRF. You wont be able to do that with the ST42, as your 10pF MLCC will have an SRF of about 2GHz.
My mind breaks thinking about this stuff, so I hope I got that right.
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W.r.t. the meter displaying Rp instead of Rs I'm not so sure if that makes sense. The meter auto-detects that the DUT is a capacitor (if the proper frequency is selected), in this case I almost always want to know Rs not Rp. So I think it should keep Rs the default for caps unless manually configured otherwise.
As previously mentioned by Kean, you can set the instrument to do serial, parallel or auto measurements, BUT for smaller caps Rp in auto mode makes more sense. I do understand that "ESR" is what you are looking for, and that is a "series" value not "parallel", however, Does measuring ESR of low-value capacitors even make sense? I have seen many ESR meters (both commercial and DIY) that would only work with caps of > ~1uF. Even fully dedicated devices like the Peak ESR meters would have a lower limit in the order of several tenths of a uF, but not lower (e.g: Peak's Atlas ESR70 *GOLD* meter has a lower limit of 0.3uF). I would assume that this is because lower-value caps are normally ceramic (or at least not electrolytic) and inherently have an extremely low Rs but a higher Rp.
Let me quote a document I read at one point (Chroma System Solution's "Series & Parallel Impedance Parameters and Equivalent Circuits" Application Note (https://assets.testequity.com/te1/Documents/pdf/series-parallel-impedance-parameters-an.pdf))
Other cases where parallel measurements are preferred are when measuring very low values of capacitance, when making measurements on dielectric and magnetic materials, and, of course, when trying to determine the separate values of two components in parallel.
So I think it definitely makes sense that it switches to Rp for nF-range capacitors.
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Hello everyone,
I'm looking for LCR Tweezers since some times ago.
I have posted a first message on the other topic here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/msg5234478/#msg5234478 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/lcr-tweezers-test-and-analysis/msg5234478/#msg5234478)
I found that the Russian version is very good, but seems to be impossible to buy one outside (english is inside the firmware).
Thanks to @Tautech 8), I discover this ST42 tweezers, and read full topic + looked at all review I found on Youtube.
It seems to be a great tool and I think I'll buy it ! :-+
But, as I plan to use it also to check some low R value (current shunt resistor), I see that there is always a little drift on milliohms measurement.
So I don't know if this suggestion is still in development/optimization ?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4871915/?topicseen#msg4871915 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4871915/?topicseen#msg4871915)
Also, I saw some other suggestions I think that will be great additions to use it without looking always at the screen:
> Diode mode:
- Short beep to tell good diode value
- Double short beep for schottky
- Continuous beep for dead diode
> Resistor mode:
- continuity beep with low R value
Thank you ! :)
Here is the original post:
Apologies if this has been covered previously (some quick searches in the thread didn't come up with anything similar), but would it be possible to add a REL/delta/NULL function for the resistance measurement?
I am trying to measure resistance in the milliOhms range and, even after doing a Short calibration, the tweezers are still displaying some 20 or so milliOhms with the probes shorted.
Thanks!
Hi giosif,
Thanks for your suggestion.
Yes, we have tried to make the short cal result in zero, but we did not have much motivation to finish this optimization.
Cause the 20milliOhms is the limitation of the tips contraction and ST42, and we have discussed one option is to use a "<30milliOhms" to replace the test result,
This way to show the result to users may be more reasonable.
Do you have many test cases that need a smaller range, which can be used for milliOhms measurement?
We are trying to design real four-wire measurement tips, but the user experience is not as good as the normal tips.
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Hello ceut. You wrote: "But, as I plan to use it also to check some low R value (current shunt resistor)" I don't think any tweezers are a good choice for this.
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Hello ceut. You wrote: "But, as I plan to use it also to check some low R value (current shunt resistor)" I don't think any tweezers are a good choice for this.
Hello !
I think it could be possible if the delta/null/rel is added, because I use actually a modded lowcost kelvin tweezer on an YR1030 Internal Resistance Tester ;)
This meter is not bad, mesured Volt or Resistor values are very good, and works at 1kHz (I have not checked the output signal on DSO).
But it is impossible to NULL the value before checking a resistor, and this lowcost modded tweezer has about 5-7milliohms value, and a not super good smd contact.
I have used a USB cable with all the 4 wires until the tip, after checking how the original test leads works.
Also, the reading value is stable :-+
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Hello everyone,
One question I have about the ST42:
- What is the max range of Capacitor mesurement ?
In the Delfom review, no problem and fast with a 10000uF: https://youtu.be/13cBzn5Svuk?t=1507
But in the specifications https://shannontweezers.top/docs/specifications/
4999uF (which is very very low for a LCR meter.)
Example: checking an audio capacitor of 22000uF would be ok with the ST42 ?
Also, some of you has got some news from Shannon as no new post since July ? :-[
Thanks :)
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Hello everyone,
One question I have about the ST42:
- What is the max range of Capacitor mesurement ?
In the Delfom review, no problem and fast with a 10000uF: https://youtu.be/13cBzn5Svuk?t=1507 (https://youtu.be/13cBzn5Svuk?t=1507)
But in the specifications https://shannontweezers.top/docs/specifications/ (https://shannontweezers.top/docs/specifications/)
4999uF (which is very very low for a LCR meter.)
Example: checking an audio capacitor of 22000uF would be ok with the ST42 ?
Also, some of you has got some news from Shannon as no new post since July ? :-[
Thanks :)
You can email Shannon directly for help.
I do audio stuff, but don't generally need to test above 2200µF. Even my bench LCR that costs 10 times as much as the ST42 considers 10mF and 100mF ranges in their lowest acceptable accuracy. You may be able to get acceptable results in those ranges, but the datasheet has to reference specific accuracy expectations.
This chart is for the ST2830 / ST2832 LCR meters:
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/?action=dlattach;attach=1963152;image)
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I had not used my Shannon Tweezers for a few weeks, and now find that they no longer measure correctly. When I press two tips together, the displayed resistance is 9 to 10 kOhm (in Auto mode). The displayed value is fluctuating by several 100 Ohm, and depends mildly on the selected measurement frequency and voltage. When set to 10 kHz measurement frequency, approx. 7 nF is read instead.
I have done the SelfCal, Open and Short calibration from the Measure > Calibration menu, but the readings have not changed significantly. Is there anything else I can try?
I did lose such important information. |O
When you encounter a problem and want to eliminate mismeasurements caused by calibration errors, you can select factory cal, which can erase the manually calibrated parameters and restore them to factory settings, and select auto mode, and do the test again.
and tell me your SN number by PM, I will check the production records of this ST42.
Sorry for the inconvenience, we try to make sure you have a good ST42, even though sometimes it will be a brand new one ;)
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I would just email Shannon. I think you'll get a faster response that way.
I somewhat regret publishing our email address on the website, which resulted in too many spam emails. I thought this would only happen in China.
If you want to find me quickly, sometimes it is faster to send me a private message on this forum, because this website will send me an email reminder with very obvious characteristics. I can know at a glance that my friends are looking for me ;D
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I somewhat regret publishing our email address on the website, which resulted in too many spam emails. I thought this would only happen in China.
At least 90% of the business emails I receive are spam. It's awesome. 🙄
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I would just email Shannon. I think you'll get a faster response that way.
I somewhat regret publishing our email address on the website, which resulted in too many spam emails. I thought this would only happen in China.
If you want to find me quickly, sometimes it is faster to send me a private message on this forum, because this website will send me an email reminder with very obvious characteristics. I can know at a glance that my friends are looking for me ;D
I can completely confirm that ;)
And I have bought the ST42 today 8)
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Hmm, $180+ now? Just when I finally decided to order one...
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Hmm, $180+ now? Just when I finally decided to order one...
Depends which version you get. The test board or leather case cost more. Still a good value anyway.
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Hmm, $180+ now? Just when I finally decided to order one...
Depends which version you get. The test board or leather case cost more. Still a good value anyway.
I mean the price increased like 70% in the last couple of weeks since I was last contemplating making an order. Then it started at about $100-ish (and the website still says $109 for the early birds), now the cheapest option is $168.
Meh.
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I mean the price increased like 70% in the last couple of weeks since I was last contemplating making an order. Then it started at about $100-ish (and the website still says $109 for the early birds), now the cheapest option is $168.
Meh.
lol, you missed that boat. I was an early bird...2 years ago.
Production costs on everything went up...and what are you going to get that's better for the price? Or double the price?
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lol, you missed that boat. I was an early bird...2 years ago.
Production costs on everything went up...and what are you going to get that's better for the price? Or double the price?
I guess, I'm getting nothing, lol. At least until there's a sale or something.
I'm not saying it's expensive for what it is. Just regretting that I didn't get it when I thought of it. At its current price, it won't be as nice an addition to my set of tools as it would have been earlier.
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I guess, I'm getting nothing, lol. At least until there's a sale or something.
I'm not saying it's expensive for what it is. Just regretting that I didn't get it when I thought of it. At its current price, it won't be as nice an addition to my set of tools as it would have been earlier.
lol, I hear you. Try emailing Shannon directly. Maybe they can give you a better price directly without having to pay Ali fees.
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Why do SMD test fixtures even just for RLC parts, and sub 1GHz, easily cost +$1000 ? You can get a pretty nice DSO or DMM's, etc, for over 1000USD.
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For reference, I have bought mine as I post my previous message, the "ST42 TestBoard" model about €140 + 7€ shipping, so total €147.
After checking on ali juste before writing this message: €219 + 23€ shipping ??? (total of €242)
It is very strange this big increased step, I have mailed Shannon for that (and other things) :-+
Maybe it is the real price of Shannon Tweezers, and the price was until end of 2023 with rebate ?
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Yeah, definitely a substantial increase. I paid $143.65 USD for the most expensive kit (extra tips, case, test board) in August (<5 months ago), from Shannon's Ali store. Same kit from same listing is now $221 USD.
Whew.
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Now it's has a -30% discount off the increased price, so it's, although still somewhat more expensive than before the increase, back in a reasonable (as far as my personal reasoning goes) range.
I guess I have no more excuses for not getting one at this point :(.
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I guess I have no more excuses for not getting one at this point :(.
Awww, poor guy. 🤣🤣🤣
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You can also try using current coupons: 24WS05, 24WS10, etc.
So current price should be $118 - 10 = $108
Hell of a decent price IMO.
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You can also try using current coupons: 24WS05, 24WS10, etc.
So current price should be $118 - 10 = $108
Hell of a decent price IMO.
Well I've already ordered it. Anyway, I thought maybe I could cancel the order and order again with a coupon, but when I tried to enter these coupons that you mentioned, I got a "For security reasons your request can't currently be processed" message, which is pretty weird. Maybe it's country-dependent or something like that.
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You can also try using current coupons: 24WS05, 24WS10, etc.
So current price should be $118 - 10 = $108
Hell of a decent price IMO.
Well I've already ordered it. Anyway, I thought maybe I could cancel the order and order again with a coupon, but when I tried to enter these coupons that you mentioned, I got a "For security reasons your request can't currently be processed" message, which is pretty weird. Maybe it's country-dependent or something like that.
Yes coupons are always country dependent, some only work in USA or Europe, etc. Maybe useful for someone else though.
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Yes coupons are always country dependent, some only work in USA or Europe, etc. Maybe useful for someone else though.
So I found a $10 coupon that works, but once I place the order, it gets instantly closed with a "We had to close this order due to account security concerns. Error Code: SC_1" message, and the money is refunded in a few minutes. Pff. Oh well. Will try tomorrow. Something tells me that it may not let me order even without the coupon now, lol.
Update: yeah it just cancels the order whenever there was a coupon used, even if it accepts the coupon on the final page before payment. Oh well. So be it, nevermind the $10.
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Well, I restored the early bird price.
Half a year ago, I expected that this would be the last early bird price.
It must be that our promotion was not strong enough, which caused the early bird to glide in the vast sky for three years and still not land :'(
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It must be that our promotion was not strong enough, which caused the early bird to glide in the vast sky for three years and still not land :'(
In my case, I first considered getting it about a year ago, then completely forgot about it, and then, after a year, saw this thread and thought: "hmm it's a nice device, I think I want it". Then I did a google search, and much to my surprise, found that both the website and the aliexpress product page were both visited links! After some SMD soldering, checking, desoldering I finally decided to order it, and that's when I found out that the price had increased.
Moral of the story: don't hesitate to buy good tools, especially those not requiring much room for storage, when you see a good price :).
Speaking of promotion... I think your product listing on Aliexpress should have more keywords in the title. Barely anybody will see it unless they search specifically for this model. Try adding words like "ESR LCR SMD tester" to get more search hits. Maybe even add the obligatory "quality new professional genuine", since, after all, this is Aliexpress :)
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Speaking of promotion... I think your product listing on Aliexpress should have more keywords in the title. Barely anybody will see it unless they search specifically for this model. Try adding words like "ESR LCR SMD tester" to get more search hits. Maybe even add the obligatory "quality new professional genuine", since, after all, this is Aliexpress :)
It's a very good suggestion, no worse than the ST42 optimization suggestions. I can't help but give you something >:D
And now, the main titile is "Shannon Tweezers ST42 Smart Digital Portable SMD LCRD&LED Tester Debugging Reparing Tool OLED Display"
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I can't help but give you something >:D
hmm... Like a set of curved tips that I could not add to cart because they were out of stock? :)
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I can't help but give you something >:D
hmm... Like a set of curved tips that I could not add to cart because they were out of stock? :)
Well, I see.
I will tear down one pair of curved tips from my own tweezers as gift for you ;)
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(replied in PM)
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Hello,
I have made my own review here, hope you will enjoy it ^-^
Also, I have posted a PM to Shannon (again ;D ) to point out some points, and hope that he will check them to improve his tweezer :-+
Edit: Video re-uploaded, new link here:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79ygOTGO7t4 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79ygOTGO7t4)
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A curious encounter: I've just came across a very similar looking (probably the same housing?) tweezers that cost a fortune and only advertise LED testing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002727680735.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005002727680735.html)
[attachimg=1]
It also has "ST" in its name, which I don't think is a pure coincidence.
p.s. I like the idea of that hard cover that slides onto the tweezers, though:
[attachimg=2]
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Yes, this same style of smart tweezers has been available for sale for some time - but at a significantly higher price.
e.g. from idel-tek in Europe https://www.ideal-tek.com/catalogue/7/testers/smart-tweezers (https://www.ideal-tek.com/catalogue/7/testers/smart-tweezers)
and SmartTweezers/Advanced Devices in North America https://www.smarttweezers.com/ (https://www.smarttweezers.com/)
In the case of that AliExpress seller, it sure looks like they are just remarketing products from Farnell/Element14 - which includes ideal-tek, Peak, Multicomp, and so on.
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I like that case. @Shannon!! 😉
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A curious encounter: I've just came across a very similar looking (probably the same housing?) tweezers that cost a fortune and only advertise LED testing:
It also has "ST" in its name, which I don't think is a pure coincidence.
p.s. I like the idea of that hard cover that slides onto the tweezers, though:
Nothing curious at all....well not to those that have used smart tweezers for approaching 20 yrs.
Even my old set use ST to signify their model..... ST3 from SmartTweezers/Advanced Devices.
Shannon's ST42 is just a recent and much better design/build in the ongoing evolution of these types of devices which until you own a set you have no real idea of their true usefulness.
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I like that case. @Shannon!! 😉
Yes, much more safety, I will try to design a 3D printer version, that's not a big deal in theory, except suspected of "copy" :palm:
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G'day! I was thinking of buying the tweezers, but now they're showing (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005004239869204.html) as AUD771 with an AUD572 coupon (PY9YW9V9MYC7), and then the coupon disappeared when I logged in?
AUD200 isn't so bad relative to the USD120 (AUD180) mentioned a week ago, but there's something about the abrupt change to the price model that has me spooked. Please advise.
In other news, the specification page (https://shannontweezers.top/docs/specifications/) still shows the minimum test signal as 0.5V, not 0.1V.
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Yes, much more safety, I will try to design a 3D printer version, that's not a big deal in theory, except suspected of "copy" :palm:
You can blame me for copying it. 🤣
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As I haven't 3d printer and I don't know how to design on that thing, I have made a different one for my ST42 ^-^
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I like that case. @Shannon!! 😉
Yes, much more safety, I will try to design a 3D printer version, that's not a big deal in theory, except suspected of "copy" :palm:
Hi. It would be great to see a cover like this on sale. Also, spare-tips-only option disappeared from aliexpress product page. Is there any chance to see them again on sale? (both curved and plain)
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Got mine today. Thank you Shannon, these are great! Much more convenient than test leads to deal with and changing DMM settings. One more approach that makes the work area cleaner and safer.
I did figure out the UI pretty quickly, which for me is unusual. So I think you cracked it.
I really like the autohold; great for those of us with short term memory issues.
I have to take everyone else's word for the tech performance; but if they are happy I am happy.
I would not sell them without a case (hard or leather). That would be asking for issues one year out.
Maybe ensure that they are balanced to not hit on the tips when dropped. Not willing to drop mine to check.
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Received mine today, finally, with the collectible curved tips previously owned by Shannon himself! :)
Thanks, Shannon.
Now I finally have a proper tool to verify and hand-pick my smd parts before soldering (and much more than that).
Noticed a couple of minor issues right away:
Rdc mode seems to be less precise than the AC mode, but this is probably fine. What does not look right, however, is that it shows ~25 mOhm when the tips are shorted even after performing the "short" calibration, whereas the AC resistance measurement shows proper values very close to zero in this case. Not sure if it's expected or not.
SoC percentage calculation algorithm during charging looks a bit weird. When I plugged in the cable, it went from 20% to 40% in under a minute, then within a few min to 70%, then, after yet longer period, to 80%, and now it seems to be sitting there. Unless something is wrong with the battery in my specimen, it must be the SoC vs voltage values table (or formula) that's somewhat off at lower values.
...and within those few minutes while I was writing this post, it went from 80% to 90%. Really hope it's simply charging this fast, and the battery is actually fine.
Also, before I plugged in the USB cable to charge it, I checked the battery voltage in the menu, and it was showing about 3.71 V. For a Li-ion battery, this doesn't really sound like 20% SoC -- it's rather the nominal voltage, far from the near-discharged state.
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btw, I think that current listing's price may scare off potential buyers: in Aliexpress search, on the search results page, they will only see the very high base price and may simply ignore the listing without even knowing that there's a discount for much of this price, which brings the total back to the normal level. That's up to the seller, of course, but as for a frequent Aliexpress customer, that would be my train of thought.
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Received mine today, finally, with the collectible curved tips previously owned by Shannon himself! :)
Thanks, Shannon.
Now I finally have a proper tool to verify and hand-pick my smd parts before soldering (and much more than that).
Noticed a couple of minor issues right away:
Rdc mode seems to be less precise than the AC mode, but this is probably fine. What does not look right, however, is that it shows ~25 mOhm when the tips are shorted even after performing the "short" calibration, whereas the AC resistance measurement shows proper values very close to zero in this case. Not sure if it's expected or not.
SoC percentage calculation algorithm during charging looks a bit weird. When I plugged in the cable, it went from 20% to 40% in under a minute, then within a few min to 70%, then, after yet longer period, to 80%, and now it seems to be sitting there. Unless something is wrong with the battery in my specimen, it must be the SoC vs voltage values table (or formula) that's somewhat off at lower values.
...and within those few minutes while I was writing this post, it went from 80% to 90%. Really hope it's simply charging this fast, and the battery is actually fine.
Also, before I plugged in the USB cable to charge it, I checked the battery voltage in the menu, and it was showing about 3.71 V. For a Li-ion battery, this doesn't really sound like 20% SoC -- it's rather the nominal voltage, far from the near-discharged state.
I have also found some strange things I have sent to Shannon by PM, with some ideas for improvement .
I use a (great) UM34 from RD-Tech to check every single USB Powered items I have :-+
=>The charging IC seems to get about 215mA when charging (with screen).
Then at 100% it slows down to 133mA to finally stops at 72mA (it may be the current to power the oled screen and IC/Screen controllers - don't know)
But, I have let it plugged because I wasn't there to unplugged it.
And after some times, battery falls down to 90% with 72mA of power drawn: I stop here because I have not understand why.
About 90min to have the 100% after unboxing it with 20% of charge (because at 100% it keeps charging a long time at 133mA ??? ), and before the fall down .
Here are the photos I have made, you can also see the time-code.
***
For Rdc: I have sent him a PM for that: he told me that this mode has no calibration for now, so we must remove the value at hand.
That's why I haven't show this mode on my Youtube review.
Edit: I forget to upload the one with 133mA
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Can someone explain me please. I measure two points on pcb (atx psu). Multimeters show ~520mV in diode mode as it should be (there is no short circuit, pn transition is present), open if probes reversed. When I measure same place with tweezers it shows short (0.04V which is 40mV) in both ways. Why is that? Tweezers measure voltage drop right with single/off-circuit diode/transistor/w/e. I have other pcbs with same behavior with tweezers.
https://i.imgur.com/ESDTLeQ.jpeg (https://i.imgur.com/ESDTLeQ.jpeg)
https://i.imgur.com/EqITYOB.jpeg (https://i.imgur.com/EqITYOB.jpeg)
https://i.imgur.com/K68OGg8.jpeg (https://i.imgur.com/K68OGg8.jpeg)
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Can someone explain me please. I measure two points on pcb (atx psu). Multimeters show ~520mV in diode mode as it should be (there is no short circuit, pn transition is present), open if probes reversed. When I measure same place with tweezers it shows short (0.04V which is 40mV) in both ways. Why is that? Tweezers measure voltage drop right with single/off-circuit diode/transistor/w/e. I have other pcbs with same behavior with tweezers.
Tweezers in Diode mode that show polarity test with forward and reverse bias waveforms therefore in-circuit tests can show another conductive path as a Short.
This is normal behaviour for tweezers and these are the occasions when a diode needs be removed/isolated for an accurate result.
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Can someone explain me please. I measure two points on pcb (atx psu). Multimeters show ~520mV in diode mode as it should be (there is no short circuit, pn transition is present), open if probes reversed. When I measure same place with tweezers it shows short (0.04V which is 40mV) in both ways. Why is that? Tweezers measure voltage drop right with single/off-circuit diode/transistor/w/e. I have other pcbs with same behavior with tweezers.
Tweezers in Diode mode that show polarity test with forward and reverse bias waveforms therefore in-circuit tests can show another conductive path as a Short.
This is normal behaviour for tweezers and these are the occasions when a diode needs be removed/isolated for an accurate result.
Yea, sounds legit. I also found this comment by Shannon which could be my case:
Review video is now public
Many thanks for your video, it's the first Shannon Tweezers ST42 review video, it's awesome :-+
There is a problem when you did the onboard diode bridge detection.
The root cause is ST42 need to detect the direction of the diodes, so the excitation current is always changing in a period,
If the diode is in parallel with a large capacitor, ST42 can not charge the capacitors to a relatively higher voltage in a short time,
and then ST42 found the voltage between two tips is quite low, so ST42 thinks it's shorted
We will try to use a larger current and longer detection period to make it better for this case.
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FYI, my 15+yr old ST3 tweezers behave the same for in-circuit diode tests.
On occasion I get out the DMM to confirm/reject tweezers readings but the only way to be sure of the false Short reading is to isolate the diode.
The simplest methods of isolation are desoldering (improves rework skill) or cutting a trace and later adding a solder bridge (the razor/scalpel blade technique).
In-circuit tests are always just a guide as wrong readings are common, eg. a resistor often measures less than its marked value and if/when it measures more you need investigate why.
Despite all this, smart tweezers are still my preferred component test device, SMD and/or TH.
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Can someone explain me please. I measure two points on pcb (atx psu). Multimeters show ~520mV in diode mode as it should be (there is no short circuit, pn transition is present), open if probes reversed. When I measure same place with tweezers it shows short (0.04V which is 40mV) in both ways. Why is that? Tweezers measure voltage drop right with single/off-circuit diode/transistor/w/e. I have other pcbs with same behavior with tweezers.
I also have this behaviour.
Explanation has been done from @tautech :-+
When it is happening to me on some board, I simply switch to LED mode, which works in this situation as it is a simple DC test like DMM 8) (but we have to take into account the diode polarity).
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Love the headline in this thread.
"at much lower cost" in regards the price the last few months and there is clearly massive stock at each bundle, but then again, they could ask 60.000 smackeronies, their product, their price.!
Working & manipulating the price is a tactic that some vendors use.
But has OP given any explanation on why they are trying to give "new buyers" the impression that the products price-norm is +600USD (incl. VAT)
for a moment I recall there was an AliExpress coupon, that indicated, a massive discount, and the price would be halved to around 300US - if you hurried.
@Shannon is it a speculative tactic this price manipulation or ? https://aliexpress.com/item/1005004239869204.html?
Asking since' a few users / possible buyers have been highlighted over the weeks, but no response even though you clearly are reading & thanking later posts..
[attachimg=1]
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Here's how it looks for me, and I guess it's how it is supposed to be, with that coupon, (but even this is a strange approach, if you ask me):
[attachimg=1]
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Probably a mistake, but, you can use current aliexpress coupons for another $8 or $20 off, shown in this sellers listing: https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006266374282.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/1005006266374282.html)
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but even this is a strange approach, if you ask me
Maybe they're low on stock or something. 🤷
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Here is the answer I have had from @Shannon about the price increase 1 month ago:
Question from me:
"Another question after checking your topic, and the last messages from users (one of them would like to buy it) : it seems your tweezers has increased very much in its price ???
Is it aliexpress that has done that ?"
Answer from @Shannon from 10 january:
the default price is 35% off , which is the early bird price, and you know three years later, the early bird price is still there
And I set the price to 30% off, one reason is Aliexpress would punish sellers who can’t provide logistics information within 48 hours, oh my god :palm: "
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The Spring Festival holiday has just ended, and this price seems to be confusing for more people, and as you mentioned, this high coupon may introduce the trouble of customs.
Now it has returned to the price before the adjustment. hope you like it :popcorn:
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Thank you for your design, which gave me the courage to "copy" it again :palm:
The picture is a sample of my latest ST42 cover, obtained through 3D printing,
but I still feel it is not elegant enough, the surface is not smooth enough, and the color is not really black.
But if you need it, I can 3D print it and send it to you, provided that you may have to pay the postage yourself.
Recently, some manufacturers have discounts, and the cost of 3D printing is close to 1 US dollar.
Also, if you guys have any good suggestions please let me know to make this cover more beautiful, maybe add some Chinese restaurant sayings ;)
For example
"Is it not delightful to have friends coming from distant quarters?"
"Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day"
BTW, I haven't figured out how to make it compatible with curved tweezer tips. In my mind, it looks more fancy.
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maybe add some Chinese restaurant sayings ;)
For example
I got this one recently. 😉
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Thank you for your design, which gave me the courage to "copy" it again :palm:
The picture is a sample of my latest ST42 cover, obtained through 3D printing,
but I still feel it is not elegant enough, the surface is not smooth enough, and the color is not really black.
But if you need it, I can 3D print it and send it to you, provided that you may have to pay the postage yourself.
Recently, some manufacturers have discounts, and the cost of 3D printing is close to 1 US dollar.
Also, if you guys have any good suggestions please let me know to make this cover more beautiful, maybe add some Chinese restaurant sayings ;)
For example
"Is it not delightful to have friends coming from distant quarters?"
"Man with hole in pocket feel cocky all day"
BTW, I haven't figured out how to make it compatible with curved tweezer tips. In my mind, it looks more fancy.
Mine is here ;D https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg5282746/#msg5282746 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg5282746/#msg5282746)
I'm interested in this type of cover too :-+
I think you could slim a little the tip of the case, something like the .jpg mod I have done quickly 8) ;D
Also, any news for new fimware ?
Thanks ;)
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[ Diode Mode Bug ]
for @Shannon to check
I have checked the diode mode with my DSO, and the test signal seems to be buggy :o
Could some of you check the signal too ?
That would explain some inconstancy in the diode result.
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Same thing here.
[attachimg=1]
Zoomed out:
[attachimg=2]
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[ Diode Mode Bug ]
for @Shannon to check
I have checked the diode mode with my DSO, and the test signal seems to be buggy :o
Could some of you check the signal too ?
That would explain some inconstancy in the diode result.
Same.
(https://www.morrisonline.us/images/st42_diode_1.png)
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I have sent a PM to Shannon for this strange behaviour.
Also, I give you the list of all proposal I have made by PM to Shannon for firmware improvement:
(but I don't know if these ideas will be implanted :-[ )
1) Shannon told me that the Hardware is 100kHz compatible, so hope to have this.
2) Rdc: add a "quick" Delta/REL function with Joystick Up or Down
(as these button doesn't do anything on Rdc mode).
3) Rdc: in general calibration menu, add Open and Short calibration.
4) Diode mode:
- Short beep to tell good diode value (Voltage between 0.45V and 0.8V)
- Double short beep for schottky (Voltage between 0.1V and 0.45V)
- Continuous beep for dead diode (when shorted)
5) Change icon in Auto-Mode, as we don't really know when we are in AutoLCR mode or not.
(the Inverted "A" is showed breafly at the beginning, and then replaced by the mesured value)
I have attached moded photo of screen with my simple idea for that:
Inverted letter in AutoLCR mode, compared to normal letter in manual mode).
6) Shutdown on battery-charging at 100% if it is possible, to save Oled display.
7) Modify Diode test signal (From Shannon: "change the voltage first and then enable the output")
List of "bugs" (?) :
a) Strange behaviour of Battery charging
b) Diode test signal
Thanks ;)
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[ Diode Mode Bug ]
for @Shannon to check
I have checked the diode mode with my DSO, and the test signal seems to be buggy :o
Could some of you check the signal too ?
That would explain some inconstancy in the diode result.
Hi ceut,
Do you want to confirm whether the waveforms of positive and negative pulses are reasonable?
Maybe the answer can be found in the historical replies, but it is indeed too long ago and it is not convenient to find. Let us discuss it again.
The diode mode supports forward diode or reverse diode identification, so forward and reverse excitation need to be provided in sequence.
The advantage is that it can identify the reverse direction of the diode more intelligently.
The disadvantage is that when a large capacitor is connected in parallel in the DUT, a short will occur, short or other mode will appear.
So the diode mode does not support the measurement of diodes connected in parallel with large capacitance.
If you want to confirm that the direction of the diode which is parallel with a large cap, as mentioned by tautech,
we can use LED mode, it is a unidirectional excitation voltage, which can slowly fill the large capacitor until the diode can conduct.
As for the positive pulse, there is a small negative pulse immediately next to it.
When switching, the enable is turned on first and then the voltage is adjusted.
It's not a bug, but is not as elegant as we want, we will modify it to change the voltage first and then enable the output ;D
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Hi ceut,
Do you want to confirm whether the waveforms of positive and negative pulses are reasonable?
Maybe the answer can be found in the historical replies, but it is indeed too long ago and it is not convenient to find. Let us discuss it again.
The diode mode supports forward diode or reverse diode identification, so forward and reverse excitation need to be provided in sequence.
The advantage is that it can identify the reverse direction of the diode more intelligently.
The disadvantage is that when a large capacitor is connected in parallel in the DUT, a short will occur, short or other mode will appear.
So the diode mode does not support the measurement of diodes connected in parallel with large capacitance.
If you want to confirm that the direction of the diode which is parallel with a large cap, as mentioned by tautech,
we can use LED mode, it is a unidirectional excitation voltage, which can slowly fill the large capacitor until the diode can conduct.
As for the positive pulse, there is a small negative pulse immediately next to it.
When switching, the enable is turned on first and then the voltage is adjusted.
It's not a bug, but is not as elegant as we want, we will modify it to change the voltage first and then enable the output ;D
Hello Shannon :)
Yes, I totally understand how it works previously, even before I bought mine :-+
The 2 stranges things I wanted to point out were:
1) the negative voltage spike previous to the positive voltage test.
2) the positive value bigger than the negative one.
=>You have explained why, and found a solution for getting around it, thank you 8)
Now we have to wait for firmware ;)
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Now we have to wait for firmware ;)
No need to wait any longer, just update your tweezers right now. >:D
You can see that the negative pulse before the positive pulse has been cancelled.
The voltages from the signal to the positive and negative power rails are asymmetrical.
So the absolute positive and negative voltage is not same, which is normal and does not affect the functionality.
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1) Shannon told me that the Hardware is 100kHz compatible, so hope to have this.
I said "It is possible", not "compatible" :palm:
The reason is that we also had plans for 100kHz tweezers before, but that was another design.
We have not verified the feasibility of ST42 supporting 100kHz.
It is only a theoretical possibility, let alone guaranteed accuracy.
2) Rdc: add a "quick" Delta/REL function with Joystick Up or Down
(as these button doesn't do anything on Rdc mode).
There is no plan. If many friends think there is a need for this use, we will consider it. :popcorn:
3) Rdc: in general calibration menu, add Open and Short calibration.
The contact error causes the offset of each measurement to be tens of milliohms, and the measurement accuracy of Rdc is good enough, so there is no need for calibration.
4) Diode mode:
- Short beep to tell good diode value (Voltage between 0.45V and 0.8V)
- Double short beep for schottky (Voltage between 0.1V and 0.45V)
- Continuous beep for dead diode (when shorted)
We will consider adding a diode to give a beep.
It does not distinguish between Schottky, ordinary diodes, and other situations (short, both forward and reverse conduction voltage drops).
Users can try to distinguish Schottky and ordinary diodes by looking at the voltage values on the screen.
The voltage boundary between them is not so obvious. We must ensure that the output information is accurate.
5) Change icon in Auto-Mode, as we don't really know when we are in AutoLCR mode or not.
(the Inverted "A" is showed breafly at the beginning, and then replaced by the mesured value)
I have attached moded photo of screen with my simple idea for that:
Inverted letter in AutoLCR mode, compared to normal letter in manual mode).
We will consider adding it.
My habit is to short-circuit the tip of the tweezers when in doubt. If it changes from capacitor to resistor, then it is Auto LCR.
6) Shutdown on battery-charging at 100% if it is possible, to save Oled display.
No plan, the life of OLED is long enough, and the lifespan degradation caused by the screen being bright during this charging time can be ignored for the time being.
7) Modify Diode test signal (From Shannon: "change the voltage first and then enable the output")
a) Strange behaviour of Battery charging
We are considering how to solve this problem. ;)
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Now we have to wait for firmware ;)
No need to wait any longer, just update your tweezers right now. >:D
You can see that the negative pulse before the positive pulse has been cancelled.
The voltages from the signal to the positive and negative power rails are asymmetrical.
So the absolute positive and negative voltage is not same, which is normal and does not affect the functionality.
It is the first time I try updating my ST42, but I have an error message :-[
The same error on 2 computers ???
Do you have an idea about this error ?
Thank you :)
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No need to wait any longer, just update your tweezers right now. >:D
Is there a new firmware release? Your website still says 2023/5.
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No need to wait any longer, just update your tweezers right now. >:D
Is there a new firmware release? Your website still says 2023/5.
Just upload the new firmware a momenta ago, the website information has not been update.
And there are some other modification is under processing. ;)
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Now we have to wait for firmware ;)
No need to wait any longer, just update your tweezers right now. >:D
You can see that the negative pulse before the positive pulse has been cancelled.
The voltages from the signal to the positive and negative power rails are asymmetrical.
So the absolute positive and negative voltage is not same, which is normal and does not affect the functionality.
It is the first time I try updating my ST42, but I have an error message :-[
The same error on 2 computers ???
Do you have an idea about this error ?
Thank you :)
when you unplug the USB cable, the COM8 port in the device management will disappear?
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when you unplug the USB cable, the COM8 port in the device management will disappear?
Yes, I have just checked it and it is the ST42.
I have upgraded the driver to 3.7.2022.1 version (was on 3.4.2019 on my previous screenshot):
same error (I'm on com4 on this computer) :(
Will try back home on other computer.
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Just upload the new firmware a momenta ago, the website information has not been update.
And there are some other modification is under processing. ;)
Ohhh, fun. 😉😉
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when you unplug the USB cable, the COM8 port in the device management will disappear?
I have tried on 3 computers at home (+2 at work): no luck :-[
Same error message on all as see on photo.
I have also a Windows 7 computer, but the fw_update-win.exe shows an error "api-ms-win-core-path-l1-1-0.dll"
Tomorrow at work, I will install a Windows11 from scratch on a test computer, and will try the update again...
My Bootloader version is 1.3.1 and original FW 1.5.3.
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when you unplug the USB cable, the COM8 port in the device management will disappear?
I have tried on 3 computers at home (+2 at work): no luck :-[
Same error message on all as see on photo.
I have also a Windows 7 computer, but the fw_update-win.exe shows an error "api-ms-win-core-path-l1-1-0.dll"
Tomorrow at work, I will install a Windows11 from scratch on a test computer, and will try the update again...
My Bootloader version is 1.3.1 and original FW 1.5.3.
Feel your pain, been there done that and earned the shirt and still had to take mine to Defpom for him to update. :rant:
Start reading here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4945249/#msg4945249 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4945249/#msg4945249)
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Feel your pain, been there done that and earned the shirt and still had to take mine to Defpom for him to update. :rant:
Start reading here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4945249/#msg4945249 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4945249/#msg4945249)
Thank you Tautech for trying helping me :)
I have read your attempts to update it, no luck for you also :-[
So I have tried again with the latest 3.8 drivers from here: https://wch-ic.com/search?q=CH340&t=downloads (https://wch-ic.com/search?q=CH340&t=downloads)
No luck too. The ST42 is showing well on the peripheral manager with a visible COM Port, but the "fw_update-win.exe" has always this message on all my computers "INFO:root:cmd send time-out, no reply" then fails.
If I try with an existing COM Port which is not the ST42 in Bootloader, I have a "serial port open" error, so not the same error as the ST42.
Also, I use Arduino sometimes, and I have not a single problem with loading sketches on them (same CH340 driver but not same COM port number).
And I have cleaned all old drivers version with Rapr.exe wich I use a lot for fixing computers.
It is like the Bootloader is locked ???
To be continued...
Edit: tried on Ubuntu live, same error message as windows, it is really difficult to update the ST42 :-[
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Feel your pain, been there done that and earned the shirt and still had to take mine to Defpom for him to update. :rant:
Start reading here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4945249/#msg4945249 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg4945249/#msg4945249)
Thank you Tautech for trying helping me :)
I have read your attempts to update it, no luck for you also :-[
So I have tried again with the latest 3.8 drivers from here: https://wch-ic.com/search?q=CH340&t=downloads (https://wch-ic.com/search?q=CH340&t=downloads)
Edit: tried on Ubuntu live, same error message as windows, it is really difficult to update the ST42 :-[
Thank you all for your feedback.
I can't stand these upgrading problems anymore >:(, and decided to update the download instructions on the web page recently.
At least the following plans are in place:
1. Record more detailed and high resolution operation videos (covering all operating systems as much as possible)
2. Provide graphic descriptions (covering all operating systems as much as possible)
3. Collect and organize common problems and provide solutions
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Just a follow up for my update problem.
=>After many hours spent, with the help of @Shannon :) , my problem is a hardware problem.
After reading the CH340E datasheet, the 1rst thing I have done is soldering a Led on pin 6 ("TNOW") which is not used inside, and is a pin to see is there is transmission activity.
After that, I have seen the Led blinking: so no problem with computer or com port or anything else.
So I have investigated more, and have desoldered some compenents to find the culprit.
=>The USB/RS232 transceiver chip (the CH340E) is damaged (shorted) only in one pin: the pin 9 which is the RX (connected to the TX pin of the main chip). The mainchip replies but the CH340E, with its RX pin shorted, doesn't send anything to the USB port.
Hope I'm the only unlucky guy who has this hardware problem :-[
Here are some photos I have made if interested.
Shannon will send me the chip
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=>The USB/RS232 transceiver chip (the CH340E) is damaged (shorted) only in one pin: the pin 9 which is the RX (connected to the TX pin of the main chip). The mainchip replies but the CH340E, with its RX pin shorted, doesn't send anything to the USB port.
Hope I'm the only unlucky guy who has this hardware problem :-[
I am very grateful to ceut for his efforts. I am amazed by his proficient use of instruments and soldering skills.
What is even more valuable is his ability to analyze problems.
Add another point:
Very strange, this is the first time I encounter such a problem.
Because the RX of the CH340E is a pin on the PCB, it is not exposed to places where humans and static electricity can come into contact like the D+/- of USB. here is the datasheet link:https://www.mpja.com/download/35227cpdata.pdf (https://www.mpja.com/download/35227cpdata.pdf)
And we have no other flashing method. The st42 must be flashed to the latest software version using this USB port before leaving the factory, which means that it has worked normally.
If the power pin or D+/- is broken, it can be understood that the non-standard typeC interface may provide excessive voltage, or the D+/- pin may be damaged by static electricity.
Thanks again ceut for your support and patience.
Traditional rules, new suggestion/issue, new gifts.
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=>The USB/RS232 transceiver chip (the CH340E) is damaged (shorted) only in one pin: the pin 9 which is the RX (connected to the TX pin of the main chip). The mainchip replies but the CH340E, with its RX pin shorted, doesn't send anything to the USB port.
Hope I'm the only unlucky guy who has this hardware problem :-[
I am very grateful to ceut for his efforts. I am amazed by his proficient use of instruments and soldering skills.
What is even more valuable is his ability to analyze problems.
Thank you very much for your message and support :) :-+
Add another point:
Very strange, this is the first time I encounter such a problem.
Because the RX of the CH340E is a pin on the PCB, it is not exposed to places where humans and static electricity can come into contact like the D+/- of USB. here is the datasheet link:https://www.mpja.com/download/35227cpdata.pdf (https://www.mpja.com/download/35227cpdata.pdf)
And we have no other flashing method. The st42 must be flashed to the latest software version using this USB port before leaving the factory, which means that it has worked normally.
If the power pin or D+/- is broken, it can be understood that the non-standard typeC interface may provide excessive voltage, or the D+/- pin may be damaged by static electricity.
That's also what I don't understand :-\
I have only charged twice since I receive it, with great quality USB charger and Cable from Ugreen and always with my UM34 USB Meter.
Also it is the first time I plug it on computer
Thanks again ceut for your support and patience.
Traditional rules, new suggestion/issue, new gifts.
Thank you :-+
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Is there a link to the current firmware version somewhere?
I can only find version 2023-5-10 ...
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Is there a link to the current firmware version somewhere?
I can only find version 2023-5-10 ...
Does the updater tool not work?
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Shannon,
Just to let you know the windows exe updater tool works fie on my windows 11 computer. Thanks. Very simple.
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I intended to but forgot to come back here and report that the updater worked fine on Windows 11 for me as well.
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Where are you downloading the latest firmware and updater from?
I can't find it on https://shannontweezers.top
I can't find it on https://github.com/shannontweezers/shannontweezers.github.io/
I must be overlooking something obvious...
[Edit: As usual, posting a question makes you see the obvious within about 100 milliseconds. In this case, (1) an earlier post by Shannon saying that the web site hasn't been updated to talk about the latest version yet, so looking for a recent date is pointless. and (2) the tool downloads the latest firmware over the Internet, irrespective of what the release date of the tool itself is.]
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Where are you downloading the latest firmware and updater from?
(2) the tool downloads the latest firmware over the Internet, irrespective of what the release date of the tool itself is.
Yes, the second one is the right answer, we try to make the updates more simple, which is independent to the firmware version
Just update it by the firmware update exe ;)
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Last follow up/fix for my ST42 (I have informed Shannon about that :-+ ).
I have taken a CH340E from a BTE17-06B board, and have put it back on my ST42: the update now works great :-+
The updater is fast and my ST42 is alive again :)
It was really difficult to do all this, and even to put all back with the battery and closing the case (I have also damaged a litte the bottom part of my ST42 ).
Hope my ST42 will work great for a long time now..
Now I can play with it again+check what changes inside, and update my proposal from here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg5345456/#msg5345456 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/design-a-new-precision-lcr-tweezers/msg5345456/#msg5345456)
and reply from Shannon
8)
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Nice work!
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Just a follow up for my update problem.
=>After many hours spent, with the help of @Shannon :) , my problem is a hardware problem.
After reading the CH340E datasheet, the 1rst thing I have done is soldering a Led on pin 6 ("TNOW") which is not used inside, and is a pin to see is there is transmission activity.
After that, I have seen the Led blinking: so no problem with computer or com port or anything else.
So I have investigated more, and have desoldered some compenents to find the culprit.
=>The USB/RS232 transceiver chip (the CH340E) is damaged (shorted) only in one pin: the pin 9 which is the RX (connected to the TX pin of the main chip). The mainchip replies but the CH340E, with its RX pin shorted, doesn't send anything to the USB port.
Hope I'm the only unlucky guy who has this hardware problem :-[
Here are some photos I have made if interested.
Shannon will send me the chip
Well I went into this thread once again, this time because I was having problems updating my ST42 so it's funny that you say "hope you are the only unlucky guy who has this problem" because I'd like to introduce myself: Hi, I'm another unlucky guy, it seems :/ I'm getting exactly the same error, and I'm not really happy to hear it's a hardware problem. Is replacing the chip the only solution?
EDIT2: I would like to add that I remember updating the firmware when I was having the screen glitches (which I also reported here). And I don't remember the process giving me errors that time. Maybe this is not necessarily a hardware problem (in my unit at least) but rather that the sofware gives the same error under different conditions (including faulty hardware).
EDIT3: Ok, "solved" the issue and I'd like to keep a record here despite being a very silly mistake from my part. Apparently the intimidating error shown by the updater is the same in case of any problem communicating with the device. In my case it was either a driver issue or a cable issue, because changing the cable and usb port I got it to work.
BUT I also got the same error during one attempt in which I didn't enter into bootloader mode correctly. The COM port appeared on my computer but it wasn't in *actual* bootloader mode.
So I'd like to leave this post here as a warning for others: Even if you get the same error, it does not mean it's a hardware error. As obvious as it is now, the firmware updater will give the same error in any case in which the device is not responding back.
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@Shannon how difficult do you think it would be to implement a special electrolytic capacitor testing mode? Electrolytic caps are polarized, and thus the correct way to test them is (I think) to bias the test signal to the Vpp/2 level, so that it always stays above zero instead of the standard AC signal of +/- Vpp/2.
I'm not sure what difference it will make though, but it just seems to me that applying a reverse polarity voltage to electrolytic caps, even if low and only for a half period, isn't quite right -- might be from the cap damage or the measurement precision perspective, or both. There are some LCR meters that implement this biased signal mode, e.g. East Tester ET432/433. I'm not able to find any good info on this topic, only vague suggestions that it's "better" to test the electrolytics with a positively biased signal, and it gives better precision.
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I was a little away from Eevblog because of some personal problems.
Nice work!
Thank you very much :D
Well I went into this thread once again, this time because I was having problems updating my ST42 so it's funny that you say "hope you are the only unlucky guy who has this problem" because I'd like to introduce myself: Hi, I'm another unlucky guy, it seems :/ I'm getting exactly the same error, and I'm not really happy to hear it's a hardware problem. Is replacing the chip the only solution?
EDIT2: I would like to add that I remember updating the firmware when I was having the screen glitches (which I also reported here). And I don't remember the process giving me errors that time. Maybe this is not necessarily a hardware problem (in my unit at least) but rather that the sofware gives the same error under different conditions (including faulty hardware).
EDIT3: Ok, "solved" the issue and I'd like to keep a record here despite being a very silly mistake from my part. Apparently the intimidating error shown by the updater is the same in case of any problem communicating with the device. In my case it was either a driver issue or a cable issue, because changing the cable and usb port I got it to work.
BUT I also got the same error during one attempt in which I didn't enter into bootloader mode correctly. The COM port appeared on my computer but it wasn't in *actual* bootloader mode.
So I'd like to leave this post here as a warning for others: Even if you get the same error, it does not mean it's a hardware error. As obvious as it is now, the firmware updater will give the same error in any case in which the device is not responding back.
I'm happy to read that, as it was finally only a software/setting problem ;)
For me, the RX pin of the chip was shorted to ground :palm: Since I put the new one, no problem at all :-+
For @shannon: I have checked the new diode signal: it is now super clean :-+
I have not used it a lot since my fix, so I don't know what is new in the 1.54 version ?
@Shannon: Do you have a changelog or something like that ? With that, I can continue to suggest some ideas I could have :)
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@Shannon how difficult do you think it would be to implement a special electrolytic capacitor testing mode? Electrolytic caps are polarized, and thus the correct way to test them is (I think) to bias the test signal to the Vpp/2 level, so that it always stays above zero instead of the standard AC signal of +/- Vpp/2.
I'm not sure what difference it will make though, but it just seems to me that applying a reverse polarity voltage to electrolytic caps, even if low and only for a half period, isn't quite right -- might be from the cap damage or the measurement precision perspective, or both. There are some LCR meters that implement this biased signal mode, e.g. East Tester ET432/433. I'm not able to find any good info on this topic, only vague suggestions that it's "better" to test the electrolytics with a positively biased signal, and it gives better precision.
It would be great to have that.
Also, as I was looking for a LCR Tweezer before Tautech told me about Shannon's one, here is the LCR-MPA function table, which I think may be added for some of them (the blue one would be great 8) ) ?
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No need to wait any longer, just update your tweezers right now. >:D
Is there a new firmware release? Your website still says 2023/5.
Just upload the new firmware a momenta ago, the website information has not been update.
And there are some other modification is under processing. ;)
Hey Shannon, any update regarding the newer firmware? The OTA tool still downloads the older firmware, and the website also says 5/23.
Also, it's probably a good idea to add Shannon ST42 Tweezers to this thread title by now. 😉
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I managed the update on my linux now.
My tweezer is detected by the kernel (type dmesg to see) as:
usb 1-4: Product: USB Serial
ch341 1-4:1.0: ch341-uart converter detected
lsusb shows it as:
ID 1a86:7523 QinHeng Electronics CH340 serial converter
udev mapped it to (type dmesg to see) :
usb 1-4: ch341-uart converter now attached to ttyUSB0
Now take the shutted down tweezer, press its navigator button upwards and put in the usb-connector
of the usb-cable already conected to your computer.
Now cd to the dir where you have the unzipped fw_update-linux programm and type :
mkdir ./tmp; export TMPDIR=./tmp; ./fw_update-linux ttyUSB0
Now the firmware gets loaded over the internet and is flashed to the tweezer.