Digital multimeters sucks

[wraper]

I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse

Analog meters with no power source have horribly low input resistance on voltage ranges. Useless on barely sensitive circuits.

[Specmaster]

I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse

Analog meters with no power source have horribly low input resistance on voltage ranges. Useless on barely sensitive circuits.

Yes they do, and a good one has a minimum input resistance of 20,000 OPV. But most analogue meters will have a battery for the resistance range only, unless it is an electronic meter.

[Stray Electron]

we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR
its annoying to keep seeing keysight and keithley threads 

  The reason that you see so many Keithley and HP (aka Keysight aka Agilent) threads here is because their meters (and other equipment) WORKS the way it's supposed to without a lot of IFs, ANDs, BUTs or MAYBEs, unlike a lot of cheapo brand X crap that people are buying from China and some other 2nd rate counties. 

[rsjsouza]

we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR
its annoying to keep seeing keysight and keithley threads 

  The reason that you see so many Keithley and HP (aka Keysight aka Agilent) threads here is because their meters (and other equipment) WORKS the way it's supposed to without a lot of IFs, ANDs, BUTs or MAYBEs, unlike a lot of cheapo brand X crap that people are buying from China and some other 2nd rate counties.

I wouldn't consider Sanwa and Hioki "2nd rate counties" (sic) - they are simply not very popular outside of their COO (Japan). Similar case can be done for Gossen and others.

BTW, your actual post is pretty ignorant and dismissive of reality, as there are several threads that talk about "lot of cheapo brand X crap" - Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here.

[coromonadalix]

here we go

I have a big black couch,  we can talk  loll  i'll take notes on my pad


op started a rant thread  everyone came aboard  loll

[0culus]

Multimeters aside, is the OP trying to reduce the information signal-to-noise ratio of the forum again?

My emphasis

Every forum I've ever been on has that one poster... 

There are a few others here too, but not very many. I'm sure you have your candidates; I'm not going to draw attention to mine.

The forum rules are sensible - and are reasonably enforced by the moderators and members.

Yep, it works pretty well. I have my own theories about specific kinds of people on forums...but that's neither here nor there. The OP's nonsensical ramblings here and in other threads at the very least makes good entertainment. 

[floobydust]

It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
They still make analog wrist watches, wall clocks, speedometers. People collect analog oscilloscopes.

I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.

[wraper]

I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.

Well, there is basically nothing to test for 34401a. Lowest range for AC current is 1A and AC ranges are specified only above 1% of the range, 1-5% has worse spec than above 5% of the range (due to RMS converter characteristic).

[tggzzz]

People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.

Even ignoring astroturfing reviews, 99.9% of review videos (and reviews for that matter) are "it arrived on time, I unboxed it, liked the colours, turned it on, it lit up as expected, it is a good device, I'm happy".

[floobydust]

It's was fun putting five DMM's in series measuring mA AC and realizing what worked.

I tested a bunch of 34401a's before I realized it's just their design.
0.00000 A AC but the three least significant digits are of no use until over ~5-10mA.
The ANENG AN8008 also reads zero or low until you give it a few mA. All non-linear.
This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.

Yes an analog multimeter has a dead spot until you've overcome the rectifier diode drops. It's shown on the dial though.

[wraper]

This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.

That true RMS is not digital but analog (AD636, AD637 and similar), that's the issue. Just take multimeter with low enough AC range or newer 34461A, 34465A, 34470A which do not have this limitation in the bottom of the range because have actual digital true RMS. If you try measuring 1 mA on analog meter set to 1 A range, pointer won't even move.

[kj7e]

Perfect reading every time.

[Electro Detective]

LOL, no one told me to bin the analogue meters when I hopped on the DMM bandwagon 

so I kept them and still use them alongside the alleged sucky digitals 

The AVOmeter 8 Mk5? is a gold performer coupled to a variac, to verify it's AC performance and if any breaks or bad contact with and without a load attached.

FWIW the AVO, and I suspect the Simpson (wish list aka Ebay stalking ) and other vintage keepers etc without any batteries can test DC and AC from zero-ish up to 3000 volts, and smile 
(especially if the meter is tipped upside down)


i.e. use both types, even the cheapies in both types work well enough for most tasks, so why stress which one is better ?

Trusting and trying to rough it with just one meter is asking for a good headbanging on any task 


I have a 'curiosity purchase' cheapie analogue/digital combo kicking around somewhere too (Jaycar brand), so yeah, maybe they are still around under different brand name badge,
for those that can't make up their    mind

--------------------


Has OP advised what brand/model/badge of digital multimeter that sucks is in question here?    

...and the condition of the batteries, sockets, leads etc 

[rsjsouza]

Has OP advised what brand/model/badge of digital multimeter that sucks is in question here?    

...and the condition of the batteries, sockets, leads etc

Of course not. Trolls don't give too many details, just enough to keep the mayhem going on...

[coromonadalix]

Told ya, not the first time  op did that

[joeqsmith]

Digital multimeters sucks
This is no more then crap toys

I`m going with my analog one for four decades
No batteries
No remorse

I used an analog meter for around a decade before buying my first digital meter.  The Fluke did not survive as long as my Radio Shack analog meter.   The Fluke's batteries also did not last near as long.  When I did something stupid, the cost to repair the analog meter was normally free or next to nothing.  The Fluke, not so much.   Today, I could still get parts to repair my old analog meter if I had it.  The Fluke with it's custom ICs, well thanks to eBay, I did actually bring it back to life.         

It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
...
I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
...

That's true but I can't think of a time it's been a problem for me as I normally will use some external sensor and convert to voltage AC or DC.   I would imagine a few people use Dave's amplified shunt for this reason. 

[wraper]

It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
...
I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
...

That's true but I can't think of a time it's been a problem for me as I normally will use some external sensor and convert to voltage AC or DC.   I would imagine a few people use Dave's amplified shunt for this reason.

Or just use meter adequate for the task (which has smaller AC current ranges), note that adequate != expensive. Measuring 1mA on 1A range is not very good to begin with. And especially not smart if you don't read multimeter spec.

[floobydust]

This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.

That true RMS is not digital but analog (AD636, AD637 and similar), that's the issue. Just take multimeter with low enough AC range or newer 34461A, 34465A, 34470A which do not have this limitation in the bottom of the range because have actual digital true RMS. If you try measuring 1 mA on analog meter set to 1 A range, pointer won't even move.

The Hycon chip has a dedicated DSP section doing true-RMS (AC-coupled, up to 1.5kHz, -3dB 6kHz). It screws up if there is significant DC preset- the A/D clips and (ANENG) firmware does not detect this. Unlike a Simpson 260
I have DMM's with the AD637, some allow AC or AC+DC true-RMS.

I have purchased 34461A's and love the cooling fan. As if there is a Cray inside, calculating the meaning of life. RPi doesn't need a cooling fan and has good computing power. Then there is the original firmware that Agilent rolled out, the beeper did not work properly. Very difficult to code and test, them beepers. I had other problems with 34461A's and they've let me down too many times.
Point is DMM's have to earn my trust now.

[Electro Detective]

Has OP advised what brand/model/badge of digital multimeter that sucks is in question here?    

...and the condition of the batteries, sockets, leads etc

Of course not. Trolls don't give too many details, just enough to keep the mayhem going on...

OP is from Antarctica 

perhaps the digital meter that sucks literally froze in the manigloo/lab ? 


 

[floobydust]

What a tough crowd.

There are companies where standard issue is a Simpson 260 analog multimeter.
I was teasing a tech about it, when he told me they have been using them for decades and they are pretty tough and that's what his company provides.
They get used a lot out in the field and it seems to be an old school kind of industry that still uses them, as a religion. I think it's that they need low Z and ghost voltage readings made them sour to digital multimeters, or they were using the oddball dB scale.
Plus they have spare parts, know how to calibrate etc. instead of shipping them to say Fluke and paying for calibration. I wonder what that costs now for shipping and cal.

[wraper]

This kind of thing pisses me off where you'd think digital true RMS is a step forward, until you see the lie.

That true RMS is not digital but analog (AD636, AD637 and similar), that's the issue. Just take multimeter with low enough AC range or newer 34461A, 34465A, 34470A which do not have this limitation in the bottom of the range because have actual digital true RMS. If you try measuring 1 mA on analog meter set to 1 A range, pointer won't even move.

The Hycon chip has a dedicated DSP section doing true-RMS (AC-coupled, up to 1.5kHz, -3dB 6kHz). It screws up if there is significant DC preset- the A/D clips and (ANENG) firmware does not detect this. Unlike a Simpson 260
I have DMM's with the AD637, some allow AC or AC+DC true-RMS.

I have purchased 34461A's and love the cooling fan. As if there is a Cray inside, calculating the meaning of life. RPi doesn't need a cooling fan and has good computing power. Then there is the original firmware that Agilent rolled out, the beeper did not work properly. Very difficult to code and test, them beepers. I had other problems with 34461A's and they've let me down too many times.
Point is DMM's have to earn my trust now.

You still ignore the fact that your Simpson 260 would be completely useless if put under the same conditions as 34401A (measuring 1 mA at 1 A range).

[Nerull]

It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
They still make analog wrist watches, wall clocks, speedometers. People collect analog oscilloscopes.

I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
People do DMM "review videos" and aren't even testing the functions/ranges, they just assume it's perfect.

I bought a jackhammer and it turns out to be terrible for working on watch mechanisms. I'm going to write this thing a terrible review.

[beanflying]

I think the OP was having 'Random Topic Starter' withdrawals after only starting two in the last three months. Need to keep their average RTS figures up 

[joeqsmith]

It's an OK thread to make sure modern DMM's haven't lost anything.
...
I had a good laugh trying to measure 1mA AC with a 34401a and AN8008. Neither DMM could do it. Such progress.
...

That's true but I can't think of a time it's been a problem for me as I normally will use some external sensor and convert to voltage AC or DC.   I would imagine a few people use Dave's amplified shunt for this reason.

Or just use meter adequate for the task (which has smaller AC current ranges), note that adequate != expensive. Measuring 1mA on 1A range is not very good to begin with. And especially not smart if you don't read multimeter spec.

It's more than adequate to measure sub mA with a little extra hardware.  Not a big deal really.  In my case, it's not uncommon for me to use the meter with additional hardware anyway.  That said, I am guessing that floobydust is just not comfortable to setup and make a measurement like this and just want the meter to directly support it.  We all have different skill levels.  In that case, buying a more suitable meter makes sense.  I agree that reading and understanding the manual is a given.   

While looking back I am not very impressed with my first Fluke meter,  I can't imagine using an analog meter today but we all have different requirements.   

[floobydust]

I just want to measure a few mA AC.
The 34401a can't measure a few mA AC on its one and only front-panel range.
Through IEEE-488 you can switch in an AC mA range but I have not checked it's accuracy.
The AN8008 is another dog here.

The Simpson 260 has a 10mA range but I checked the manual and it has no AC current measurement function. I thought it could do it, with high burden losses.

It's not a skill issue, it's uncommon knowledge that some DMM's read incorrectly on this function.
Shop I worked in it was standard procedure to check mains leakage current on all repairs. I got bit by some products despite the DMM saying all is safe. That's how I figured it out.

For now, I use Beckman/Wavetek DMM's that have no problem measuring a few mA AC. They seem to know how to properly make an active rectifier.

For the record, I don't own any analog multimeters and 001 is not paying me to be in this thread