Digital multimeters sucks

[vk6zgo]

Sounds like someone has thrown their a rattle out the pram or should I say DMM.

Can an analogue  meter survive a metre drop?

Yep!
I dropped an AVO 8 off the top of a transmitter---about 2m.
I put my foot out (wearing "Japanese safety boots" ) to prevent damage to the meter ----Ouch! Not a good idea!!

The AVO was fine, so was my foot -------after a "few" hours, & some Paracetamol !

[bd139]

Think you were lucky. Usually if you fart in the general direction of an Avo it breaks.

On the bench this week:



I like both.

[vk6zgo]

 AVO 8 has  DC current scales down to 250uA, but unfortunately the lowest ac scale is 100mA.
http://www.richardsradios.co.uk/avo8.html

For generic voltage rail checking, there is not that much to choose from between it & my Fluke 77.
A problem the latter has that the AVO has not, is that some waveforms when looked at on the DC range read as a steady DC voltage.

On one occasion, I looked at the "boost HT" on a TV, which was supposed to be around 130v.
It read about 105v--- a bit low, but not that bad.
On checking the same test point with a 'scope, the "DC" (half wave rectified 15kHz from an overwinding on the H.O. Transformer) was obviously not filtered, due to a faulty low ESR electro.

With a ordinary analog meter, the problem would have been immediately evident.

That said, as most of the time, I use an analog Oscilloscope "free running" in the DC coupled mode for checking power rails, etc, I am quite happy with the 77 for most of the other things.

[joeqsmith]

I just want to measure a few mA AC.
The 34401a can't measure a few mA AC on its one and only front-panel range.
Through IEEE-488 you can switch in an AC mA range but I have not checked it's accuracy.
...

It's never come up that I needed it which explains why I was not aware of that feature.  A quick search and sure enough:
https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1000001267:epsg:faq&nid=-31895.536880933.02&id=1000001267:epsg:faq

For fun I gave it a try and it seems to work.    My meter is one of the early versions. I think I bought it the same year it was released.  So there shouldn't be any compatibility problems when using this command.

Now I wonder if there are other undocumented features like this.

****
I should mention that I did not try setting the meter to slow. This was with the defaults.   

[wraper]

It's never come up that I needed it which explains why I was not aware of that feature.  A quick search and sure enough:
https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1000001267:epsg:faq&nid=-31895.536880933.02&id=1000001267:epsg:faq

For fun I gave it a try and it seems to work.    My meter is one of the early versions. I think I bought it the same year it was released.  So there shouldn't be any compatibility problems when using this command.

Why isn't the 10 mA ac current range included as one of the standard ranges for the Agilent 34401A? It is because adding a 100 mA range would have added significant cost to the instrument for a measurement that is infrequently used, and implementing the 10 mA range without the 100 mA range would require the long explanation, that you are currently reading.

LOL

[001]

Honey, why did You wrote tons of shitposts here?
Keep in mind what analog dmm is a root way to understand metrology
and it did`t require expencive batteries
and etc

stop digitise world! stay ortodoxy!

[hwj-d]

I have one with 6 and a half needles, every from zero to nine, except the half. That solves the problem... 

[Specmaster]

 AVO 8 has  DC current scales down to 250uA, but unfortunately the lowest ac scale is 100mA.

Avo 9 has 10A, 1A, 100mA, 10mA, 1mA, 300uA and 50uA DC current ranges which can be very handy and on the AC side has 10A, 1A, 100mA and 10mA thuis making more suitable for an electronics bench. I think the Avo 8 was more of an electricians meter.

[joeqsmith]

I just want to measure a few mA AC.
The 34401a can't measure a few mA AC on its one and only front-panel range.
Through IEEE-488 you can switch in an AC mA range but I have not checked it's accuracy.
...

It's never come up that I needed it which explains why I was not aware of that feature.  A quick search and sure enough:
https://www.keysight.com/main/editorial.jspx?cc=US&lc=eng&ckey=1000001267:epsg:faq&nid=-31895.536880933.02&id=1000001267:epsg:faq

For fun I gave it a try and it seems to work.    My meter is one of the early versions. I think I bought it the same year it was released.  So there shouldn't be any compatibility problems when using this command.

Now I wonder if there are other undocumented features like this.

****
I should mention that I did not try setting the meter to slow. This was with the defaults.

After having the meter unplugged for several hours, the feature is indeed still enabled as the post suggests.  Just select manual range and it will show up as an option.

I then selected the longer filter and it does appear to improve the accuracy.    For fun, I tossed it across a 1 ohm 0.1% shunt which is typically how I would use the meter.   Default filter settings.

[Stray Electron]

we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR
its annoying to keep seeing keysight and keithley threads 

  The reason that you see so many Keithley and HP (aka Keysight aka Agilent) threads here is because their meters (and other equipment) WORKS the way it's supposed to without a lot of IFs, ANDs, BUTs or MAYBEs, unlike a lot of cheapo brand X crap that people are buying from China and some other 2nd rate counties.

I wouldn't consider Sanwa and Hioki "2nd rate counties" (sic) - they are simply not very popular outside of their COO (Japan). Similar case can be done for Gossen and others.

BTW, your actual post is pretty ignorant and dismissive of reality, as there are several threads that talk about "lot of cheapo brand X crap" - Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here.

   Yeah and good luck trying to get a service manual, parts list or anything else for any of those brands. I have Anritsu, Yokogawa and other Japanese made equipment and it's all well built but there are no manuals for any of it. The only company that has ever supplied me with any information was Misubishi and they had one of their engineers mark up a Japanese language manual and fax it to me. My hat is off them. One more thing: I really wasn't talking about Japan.  Maybe you consider it to be a 2nd class country but I definitely wouldn't. Their electronics design and construction is first class but their tech support outside of Japan leaves a lot to be desired.

  "Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here."

   Those aren't exactly what I would call brand X but I guess you don't understand the difference. But still, being common doesn't mean that it's well built.  Radio Shack brand is common but most of it is still junk! Lafayette is only slightly better.   Go open any of the brands that you named and look at the build quality and compare that to pictures of the tear downs of any HP built test equipment that have been posted on this forum and then try to convince me that any of them are as well designed or well built.  And that is before we talk about the availability of parts, service manual, operators manuals, etc. 

  3roomlab  said: "we need sanwa to send a rep here to answer some questions about 360TR"

    Did anyone ever get a reply from Sanwa about this?  Has anyone ever gotten a response from Sanwa about any technical inquiry???  In fact, has anyone ever gotten a positive response from any Japanese or Chinese test equipment company company for technical support?

[Electro Detective]

Honey, why did You wrote tons of shitposts here?
Keep in mind what analog dmm is a root way to understand metrology
and it did`t require expencive batteries
and etc

stop digitise world! stay ortodoxy!

Dear Sir/Ma'am,

I get what you are saying about some technology that not always does us any real favors
that need batteries which may be expensive, and a hassle to buy and keep warm in Antarctica       

FYI you can learn a bit about metrology with fast and precise digits too, as well as a moving needle 
 
You kicked off this post, that's drifting off toward   'analogue meter memory lane...'    

but 3 pages later still not advised which 'Digital multimeters sucks' model/brand you have, 

what the application/s were to instigate the sucking POV 

and which analogue meter/s you use that do not suck (yet)

Throw us a bone here mate   

[DaJMasta]

Not sure why an analog movement would be considered "metrology" in the last 50 years, honestly.  Sure, there are accurate ones, but digital technologies and being able to display finer gradations have dominated all the most sensitive and highest resolution measurements in recent decades.  There are personal preference things and natural averaging/quick display things that analog meters can offer, but those aren't really in the realm of metrology.


Maybe the digital meters you have used haven't been well suited to your applications, maybe your analog meters are particularly good and have been well suited to your applications, but the fact is that the precision of a digital readout from a properly specified acquisition system blows an analog meter movement out of the water every time.  Even when the sensitivity and the dynamic range of the analog system are the same (or even superior), you can get about 3 digits worth of display precision on a regular sized movement, and you simply can't distinguish finer gradations which many digit digital displays have no trouble showing you - and in many applications these fine details are essential for developing, troubleshooting, or characterizing the DUT.

If you like analog meters, great.  If you have had a bad experience with digital ones, that's too bad.  Don't know how that invalidates the entire architecture across dozens of brands and hundreds of models that have been obviously preferred and market-dominant for several decades.



But I gotta say.... whining about needing a battery....... yikes.  So your preferred analog meter doesn't even have an ohms range?  I'd prefer something with features from at least the 50s...

[rsjsouza]

   Yeah and good luck trying to get a service manual (...)

Way to go moving the goalposts from "WORKS" to "SUPPORT"... 

One more thing: I really wasn't talking about Japan.  Maybe you consider it to be a 2nd class country but I definitely wouldn't. Their electronics design and construction is first class but their tech support outside of Japan leaves a lot to be desired.

Hey, I am not calling any country 2nd class - your post is the one that was dismissive of anything else other than these two brands whose HQs are in the US. 

  "Siglent, Rigol, Instek, Uni-T and others are pretty common around here."

   Those aren't exactly what I would call brand X but I guess you don't understand the difference.

Hey, your post was the one that put every other brand on the market in the same bucket. It's not my fault that you were not very specific and came across as ignorant of the plethora of brands and quality levels.

[beanflying]

    Did anyone ever get a reply from Sanwa about this?  Has anyone ever gotten a response from Sanwa about any technical inquiry???  In fact, has anyone ever gotten a positive response from any Japanese or Chinese test equipment company company for technical support?

YES. Advantest/ADC Corp. Japan GM Sales re request for manual and information in February and others in the past successful responses from other Asian countries/companies China included over time.

In the last month Keysight recently has FAILED to respond in any form to a support request via email and my phone call to their support line is still awaiting a response by comparison.

You Rash Generalisation/Slight against Asian manufacturers is WRONG.

[Specmaster]

The point is that any multimeter, unless it is mains driven bench meter uses batteries, even a analogue one.

[tggzzz]

The point is that any multimeter, unless it is mains driven bench meter uses batteries, even a analogue one.

Moving coil meters are useful for many purposes, even if their batteries are missing.

However, to use them to measure resistance would require an external power source of some sort.

[bd139]

 

[sambonator]

...
    Did anyone ever get a reply from Sanwa about this?  Has anyone ever gotten a response from Sanwa about any technical inquiry???  In fact, has anyone ever gotten a positive response from any Japanese or Chinese test equipment company company for technical support?

I get responsive support from Hioki all the time.

[Specmaster]

I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name 

[windsmurf]

I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name 

Is this a conspiracy by Dave to get more traffic to his Forums, and hopefully to his blogs?   

We should help him.. let's start a "Fluke sucks" thread 

[joeqsmith]

I think that the OP deliberately asks these kind of thought provoking questions and then quietly slips out the back end without really divulging if there was ever a serious reason for the question, I seem to remember a few other similar type of threads in his or her name 

Is this a conspiracy by Dave to get more traffic to his Forums, and hopefully to his blogs?   

We should help him.. let's start a "Fluke sucks" thread 

If you really want to drum up some drama, you need to start a "UNI-T sucks" thread.   

[joeqsmith]

Sounds like someone has thrown their a rattle out the pram or should I say DMM.

Can an analogue  meter survive a metre drop?

Yep!
I dropped an AVO 8 off the top of a transmitter---about 2m.
I put my foot out (wearing "Japanese safety boots" ) to prevent damage to the meter ----Ouch! Not a good idea!!

The AVO was fine, so was my foot -------after a "few" hours, & some Paracetamol !

For some reason, my cheap analog meter didn't hold up very well.  Perhaps a cheap digital one would be more robust. 
https://youtu.be/WCIpm8peQSU

[Electro Detective]

Easily a 1000 page monstrosity here in a day if anyone dares post   "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck"

kicking off top of the list with Uni-Tee, Harbor Fright wheel chocs, and other ThreeHungLow produced promo freebies,
including cheapies labelled for CAT 4  (Tropical Cyclone survivability...in a Pelican case  )


Hopefully some Antarctican member/s will eventually chime in to stick in the boots on what may be a sensitive topic    

 

[joeqsmith]

Easily a 1000 page monstrosity here in a day if anyone dares post   "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck"

kicking off top of the list with Uni-Tee, Harbor Fright wheel chocs, and other ThreeHungLow produced promo freebies,
including cheapies labelled for CAT 4  (Tropical Cyclone survivability...in a Pelican case  )


Hopefully some Antarctican member/s will eventually chime in to stick in the boots on what may be a sensitive topic    

 

How about "Top 10 Digital Multimeters that suck and why".  I've got a few picks already if you dare start this shit war! 

[schmitt trigger]

If you think that those questions would create a feeding frenzy, you have not seen photography forums.

Just ask: which camera brand is worse? Canon or Nikon? And watch the fanboys shred themselves to molecules.

Or the timeless dilemma: do REAL photographers prefer film over digital? Such a thread will grow in no time to several  hundred messages long.