Author Topic: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?  (Read 9126 times)

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Online tggzzz

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #25 on: July 30, 2019, 05:48:38 pm »
Convenience is a huge factor. If you value your time even just slightly having the ability to do something easily is a huge boon. With patience and skill most things can be done with basic tools, but our time on this planet is limited. Oscilloscopes are a means and generally not an end and being able to do something the hard way doesn't mean wanting to it that way every time. Obviously FFT could be done better but typically at a huge cost. It's generally many times the price of a decent oscilloscope. Having basic FFT capabilities in a device already on your desk can be quite beneficial.

And with that we return to my statement, which you have chosen to snipp in your latest post, viz: "Capturing single shot events is the only killer use-case for digitising scopes. Everything else is down to convenience and cost."

I'm glad you agree with me.

Quote
Logic analysers don't always display the analogue waveform in which case it can be hard to troubleshoot your issue if it's to do with signal integrity. Having MSO capabilities to correlate analogue and digital can be very useful.

LAs never display the analogue waveform; they interpret the analogue waveform as a digital signal, then post-process and display the digital signal.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 05:51:58 pm by tggzzz »
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #26 on: July 30, 2019, 05:57:49 pm »
And with that we return to my statement, which you have chosen to snipp in your latest post, viz: "Capturing single shot events is the only killer use-case for digitising scopes. Everything else is down to convenience and cost."

I'm glad you agree with me.
It's true for FFT indeed. In the other cases the alternatives seem to be inferior. Or if you want to turn it around, catching single shot events is ultimately a matter of convenience too. You just have to be patient trying to catch that one glitch on a CRO mucking about with film and exposure times.
 

Offline Sighound36

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #27 on: July 30, 2019, 06:06:57 pm »
Happily I use both, have a 500Mhz mso which is really great for many applications, as has been said on the thread it is convenient and has many other features also takes up less space than my 400Mhz analogue tekky, but there is something satisfying about using a analogue scope.

Quality FFT? sorry Spectrum Analyzer by a country mile, I appreciate cost here is a factor, and understand that aspect however as an SME I can justify a certain amount of outlay for a given project. I require accurate repeatable and reliable results.

Having a real time analyzer is also very useful, something unless you have an uber Tekky six figure + cutting edge scope and the matching probes etc then its all just willy waving unless you are a large multi national aerospace / telecommunications company etc

Everything has its place and my analogue scope is staying

« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 06:18:39 pm by Sighound36 »
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #28 on: July 30, 2019, 06:21:49 pm »
Quote
Logic analysers don't always display the analogue waveform in which case it can be hard to troubleshoot your issue if it's to do with signal integrity. Having MSO capabilities to correlate analogue and digital can be very useful.

LAs never display the analogue waveform; they interpret the analogue waveform as a digital signal, then post-process and display the digital signal.

I had an old HP1631C (I think) that had two scope channels built in.  These could be synchronous with the digital.   For work we had an old HP16500 (I think) that also had two scope channels.   It was modular, so I assume you could add more if needed.  The specs on it were not bad, unlike my old 1631C (or what ever it was).   I would imagine Keysight still offers such boards for their state of the art SAs.   

Back on topic...

Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019? Why?

I currently have 4 old scopes at home, not including my handheld Flukes.  These are all digital.   I havn't used an analog scope at home in maybe 10 years after I gave mine away.   For work, I would guess it's closer to 35 years since I have seen one.    But I also havn't used an analog VOM in about that same amount of time. 
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Offline scuzzyTerminator

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #29 on: July 30, 2019, 06:27:44 pm »
I still use my Tek 547 to warm my room in the cold months. Seriously.
 

Online Gyro

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #30 on: July 30, 2019, 06:29:26 pm »
Horses for courses. I use one of each. My Analogue is a 250MHz Tek475A and my DSO is a VDS1022I (100Msps, 25MHZ).

For me, I tend to find that anything high frequency that I want to look at is repetitive and anything that I want to single-shot capture is lower frequency. Anything else is handled by the logic analyser (after I've looked at the quality of the signals with the Tek).

Usually I just reach up and pull the power button on the Tek 475A if I want to look at something.

I can't afford/justify anything digital that would match the 250MHz bandwidth of the Tek.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 06:34:25 pm by Gyro »
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #31 on: July 30, 2019, 06:33:16 pm »
Quote
Logic analysers don't always display the analogue waveform in which case it can be hard to troubleshoot your issue if it's to do with signal integrity. Having MSO capabilities to correlate analogue and digital can be very useful.

LAs never display the analogue waveform; they interpret the analogue waveform as a digital signal, then post-process and display the digital signal.

I had an old HP1631C (I think) that had two scope channels built in.  These could be synchronous with the digital.   For work we had an old HP16500 (I think) that also had two scope channels.   It was modular, so I assume you could add more if needed.  The specs on it were not bad, unlike my old 1631C (or what ever it was).   I would imagine Keysight still offers such boards for their state of the art SAs.   

That's a single box with two completely different instruments in it! Useful, but doesn't change the point :)

Quote
Back on topic...

Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019? Why?

I currently have 4 old scopes at home, not including my handheld Flukes.  These are all digital.   I havn't used an analog scope at home in maybe 10 years after I gave mine away.   For work, I would guess it's closer to 35 years since I have seen one.    But I also havn't used an analog VOM in about that same amount of time.

(Background: in the 90s I used high-end boat-anchor digitising scopes and knew some of the people that designed their front ends).

Until recently affordable digitising scopes were in many cases inferior in one way or another to analogue scopes. You only chose to use them to capture single-shot events, where they were usually better than analogue storage scopes (may they rot in hell!).

My major objection is to people that say analogue scopes are useless and chould be ignored.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #32 on: July 30, 2019, 06:39:20 pm »
Horses for courses. I use one of each. My Analogue is a 250MHz Tek475A and my DSO is a VDS1022I (100Msps, 25MHZ).

For me, I tend to find that anything high frequency that I want to look at is repetitive and anything that I want to single-shot capture is lower frequency. Anything else is handled by the logic analyser (after I've looked at the quality of the signals with the Tek).

Usually I just reach up and pull the power button on the Tek 475A if I want to look at something.

I can't afford anything digital that would match the 250MHz bandwidth of the Tek.

That's a good summary of a sound development and debugging strategy.

It divides the problems into sensible categories, uses the strength of each tool, and covers a tool's weakness by other tools' strengths. Horses for courses indeed.

But I prefer my Tek 485; it has a real 50ohm input, not these rubbish 50ohm//15pF inputs :)
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #33 on: July 30, 2019, 06:47:59 pm »

And with that we return to my statement, which you have chosen to snipp in your latest post, viz: "Capturing single shot events is the only killer use-case for digitising scopes. Everything else is down to convenience and cost."

I'm glad you agree with me.


LAs never display the analogue waveform; they interpret the analogue waveform as a digital signal, then post-process and display the digital signal.
One could argue about what constitutes a logic analyser, but all current Saleae models have analogue capabilities on all channels. Older models had mostly digital and some analogue channels. We see this overlapping of traditional specialised devices more and more. As technology advances the limitations that lead to the creation of several discrete devices blur. The recent Keithley DMMs are arguable fancy single channel oscilloscopes and are probably more capable than some of the actual single channel oscilloscopes of yesteryear.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #34 on: July 30, 2019, 07:14:06 pm »
Quote
Logic analysers don't always display the analogue waveform in which case it can be hard to troubleshoot your issue if it's to do with signal integrity. Having MSO capabilities to correlate analogue and digital can be very useful.

LAs never display the analogue waveform; they interpret the analogue waveform as a digital signal, then post-process and display the digital signal.



I had an old HP1631C (I think) that had two scope channels built in.  These could be synchronous with the digital.   For work we had an old HP16500 (I think) that also had two scope channels.   It was modular, so I assume you could add more if needed.  The specs on it were not bad, unlike my old 1631C (or what ever it was).   I would imagine Keysight still offers such boards for their state of the art SAs.   

That's a single box with two completely different instruments in it! Useful, but doesn't change the point :)

Quote
Back on topic...

Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019? Why?

I currently have 4 old scopes at home, not including my handheld Flukes.  These are all digital.   I havn't used an analog scope at home in maybe 10 years after I gave mine away.   For work, I would guess it's closer to 35 years since I have seen one.    But I also havn't used an analog VOM in about that same amount of time.

(Background: in the 90s I used high-end boat-anchor digitising scopes and knew some of the people that designed their front ends).

Until recently affordable digitising scopes were in many cases inferior in one way or another to analogue scopes. You only chose to use them to capture single-shot events, where they were usually better than analogue storage scopes (may they rot in hell!).

My major objection is to people that say analogue scopes are useless and chould be ignored.

Looks like it was the 1631D.   Not sure what you mean by "single box with two completely different instruments in it!"  It's integrated into the system.   Obviously allowing you to display analog signals.  You can find the manual here:

http://www.cbradio.cz/doc/_Other/Osciloskop/HP%201631D/manual.pdf

I can't think of a case where I would have wanted an analog scope with phosphor storage with a Polaroid camera and waiting for the film to develop so I could tape them to my hand typed report (with the IBM Selectra)  before photocopying them.   The high tech photocopy machine, now that was a wonder.     
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Offline BU508A

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #35 on: July 30, 2019, 07:29:56 pm »
I still use one occasionally, my primary scopes are DSOs but the XY mode on my analog scope blows away every DSO I've tried for that purpose.

I made ths screenshot from my RTB 2004 in X-Y Mode. No idea, what's wrong with that.   :-//

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Offline gildasd

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #36 on: July 30, 2019, 07:40:30 pm »
Yes, it is the only thing I have for now.

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Online Gyro

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #37 on: July 30, 2019, 07:49:00 pm »
I still use one occasionally, my primary scopes are DSOs but the XY mode on my analog scope blows away every DSO I've tried for that purpose.

I made ths screenshot from my RTB 2004 in X-Y Mode. No idea, what's wrong with that.   :-//

It doesn't look that great to me (maybe if C2 was higher amplitude and less noisy). If that's the best it can do on a simple phase shifted sinewave then I wouldn't want to use if for any sort of complex X-Y function.
« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 07:51:47 pm by Gyro »
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #38 on: July 30, 2019, 08:16:22 pm »

And with that we return to my statement, which you have chosen to snipp in your latest post, viz: "Capturing single shot events is the only killer use-case for digitising scopes. Everything else is down to convenience and cost."

I'm glad you agree with me.


LAs never display the analogue waveform; they interpret the analogue waveform as a digital signal, then post-process and display the digital signal.
One could argue about what constitutes a logic analyser, but all current Saleae models have analogue capabilities on all channels. Older models had mostly digital and some analogue channels. We see this overlapping of traditional specialised devices more and more. As technology advances the limitations that lead to the creation of several discrete devices blur. The recent Keithley DMMs are arguable fancy single channel oscilloscopes and are probably more capable than some of the actual single channel oscilloscopes of yesteryear.

Can I suggest you use the quote button above the top of a post, if you want readers to understand why you are saying something.

The definition of a logic analyser is standard.

I have no idea what "analogue capabilities" might mean. If it means post-processing and combining several digital signals and interpreting them as a number, then that is most definitely not the point I was making.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online tggzzz

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #39 on: July 30, 2019, 08:19:17 pm »
I can't think of a case where I would have wanted an analog scope with phosphor storage with a Polaroid camera and waiting for the film to develop so I could tape them to my hand typed report (with the IBM Selectra)  before photocopying them.   The high tech photocopy machine, now that was a wonder.   

Nobody wanted that! We used it because it was the only technology available.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
Glider pilot's aphorism: "there is no substitute for span". Retort: "There is a substitute: skill+imagination. But you can buy span".
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #40 on: July 30, 2019, 08:47:09 pm »
Can I suggest you use the quote button above the top of a post, if you want readers to understand why you are saying something.

The definition of a logic analyser is standard.

I have no idea what "analogue capabilities" might mean. If it means post-processing and combining several digital signals and interpreting them as a number, then that is most definitely not the point I was making.
I am using the quote button, just cutting out the unnecessary clutter and repetition. The definition of a logic analyser isn't as clear-cut as one would think, hence my example of the Saleae logic analysers. This generation can display analogue signals on all channels and the previous generation could display a few analogue signals along the digital ones, blurring the line between oscilloscopes and logic analysers the same way many other instruments are blurring the lines between their instrument type and adjacent types.

https://www.saleae.com/

 

Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #41 on: July 30, 2019, 08:49:38 pm »
It doesn't look that great to me (maybe if C2 was higher amplitude and less noisy). If that's the best it can do on a simple phase shifted sinewave then I wouldn't want to use if for any sort of complex X-Y function.
The distinct lack of a better XY function on even rather expensive digital oscilloscopes suggests it is adequate for real world usage.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #42 on: July 30, 2019, 09:03:17 pm »
I can't think of a case where I would have wanted an analog scope with phosphor storage with a Polaroid camera and waiting for the film to develop so I could tape them to my hand typed report (with the IBM Selectra)  before photocopying them.   The high tech photocopy machine, now that was a wonder.   

Nobody wanted that! We used it because it was the only technology available.

At the time, I was glad to have a bolt on Polaroid camera for storage.  Phosphor storage so I could actually see an event was huge.    I was also impressed with the IBM PC, no more whiteout.   We had one DSO for the entire department but it wasn't reliable and Tektronix had it more than we did.    That thing was some huge monster mainframe with an external keypad.   I think it was 100MHz which at the time was far beyond any thing we were working on.   

For home, I had made a record playback system to at least be able to look at some events.  It was never fast enough.  That 1631D was a big step up but I kept my analog scope as it was better for a lot of things I was doing.  The 1631D only had two channels, vs my Hitachi with 4.  Hitachi had digital readouts for period, frequency and phase.  It also had lower noise.     But the HP had an external dual disk drive and I had a printer for it.   I dare say it was a 50:50 split in those days which one I used. 

Looks like BK still offers an analog scope.  I wonder who makes the tubes for them.
https://www.bkprecision.com/products/oscilloscopes/2120C-30-mhz-dual-trace-analog-oscilloscope-with-probes.html
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Offline dcbrown73

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #43 on: July 30, 2019, 09:09:50 pm »
I use a DSO.  I would like to have an analog scope for those few use cases where it makes the most sense. Two scopes would take up a lot of space on my bench.  I could make room, but unless I have to.  I would rather not.  I can use the other space for a lot of other things.

Thus far in my short time span of my electronics hobby, my DSO has done everything I've required.

The only piece of test equipment I have more than one "bench version" of on my bench, is power supplies.   (I have multiple DMMs, but only one bench version)
Why exactly do people feel I should have read their post before I responded?  As if that was necessary for me to get my point across.
 

Offline schmitt trigger

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #44 on: July 30, 2019, 09:29:38 pm »
Oh, boy! I had forgotten about the Polaroid scope camera, and taping the photos to reports.

Unless one was very familiar with exposure settings and brightness setups for both the traces and graticule, it would take at least a couple of attempts to obtain the desired photo.
And..........If the scope did not have an on-screen display of the vertical and horizontal scale settings, you better not forget to write them down!

Been there, done that.
 

Offline Kjelt

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #45 on: July 30, 2019, 09:36:44 pm »
I use both, because
My DSO is 100MHz it only has two channels but all kinds of analysis and trigger options enabled,
my analog scope is 500MHz and has four channels  ;)
 

Online RoGeorge

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #46 on: July 30, 2019, 09:38:30 pm »
I still keep my analog Russian 2x20 MHz http://danyk.cz/c1-118_en.html because it is galvanic isolated from the mains, so once or twice a year might come in handy.  Yet, didn't powered it up for a couple of years now since I am using the digital Rigol DS1054Z.

One thing that analog oscs still shine is XY mode, which still surpass any digital ones, especially when you need XY mode with intensity variations.

Online tggzzz

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #47 on: July 30, 2019, 09:53:19 pm »
Can I suggest you use the quote button above the top of a post, if you want readers to understand why you are saying something.

The definition of a logic analyser is standard.

I have no idea what "analogue capabilities" might mean. If it means post-processing and combining several digital signals and interpreting them as a number, then that is most definitely not the point I was making.
I am using the quote button, just cutting out the unnecessary clutter and repetition.

You are snipping the context, and context is important. Exactly what constitutes context is a matter of taste, but there are commonly accepted bounds.

This forum isn't stackexchange, thankfully. Stackexchange actively discourages context, which means the threads are limited to "which button do I press to frobnitze the squirdle", and prevents interesting discussions of subtle points.


Quote
The definition of a logic analyser isn't as clear-cut as one would think, hence my example of the Saleae logic analysers. This generation can display analogue signals on all channels and the previous generation could display a few analogue signals along the digital ones, blurring the line between oscilloscopes and logic analysers the same way many other instruments are blurring the lines between their instrument type and adjacent types.

https://www.saleae.com/



If the 555 timer is a direct representation of a digitised analogue voltage, then it is an oscilloscope display.

It is completely irrelevant whether the oscilloscope display is intermingled with a logic analogue display - they are still two completely different instruments.

By your contention, you believe that the screenshot below means that there is a "blurring of the lines" between clocks, discs, processors, memory, networks and thermometers! I think that's ridiculous.


« Last Edit: July 30, 2019, 09:57:16 pm by tggzzz »
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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Online Mr. Scram

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #48 on: July 30, 2019, 10:15:04 pm »
You are snipping the context, and context is important. Exactly what constitutes context is a matter of taste, but there are commonly accepted bounds.

This forum isn't stackexchange, thankfully. Stackexchange actively discourages context, which means the threads are limited to "which button do I press to frobnitze the squirdle", and prevents interesting discussions.

If the 555 timer is a direct representation of a digitised analogue voltage, then it is an oscilloscope display.

It is completely irrelevant whether the oscilloscope display is intermingled with a logic analogue display - they are still two completely different instruments.

By your contention, you believe that the screenshot below means that there is a "blurring of the lines" between clocks, discs, processors, memory, networks and thermometers! I think that's ridiculous.


None of the context is removed. The message to which was responded is included in the response. None of the actual context can be removed or altered by me, as it is both cemented and easily found in the thread. Few people seem unable to cope with cutting the repetition out. I don't think there are any well defined rules about what an instrument is called based on what properties. The archetypes keep evolving with technology. The new Keithley DMM range would be another example of the lines blurring. These devices can display voltage measurements over time in real time and has more advanced triggering options than most oscilloscopes. Is it an oscilloscope? Is it a DMM?
 

Online tggzzz

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Re: Do You still use analog oscilloscopes in 2019?
« Reply #49 on: July 30, 2019, 10:32:15 pm »
You are snipping the context, and context is important. Exactly what constitutes context is a matter of taste, but there are commonly accepted bounds.

This forum isn't stackexchange, thankfully. Stackexchange actively discourages context, which means the threads are limited to "which button do I press to frobnitze the squirdle", and prevents interesting discussions.

If the 555 timer is a direct representation of a digitised analogue voltage, then it is an oscilloscope display.

It is completely irrelevant whether the oscilloscope display is intermingled with a logic analogue display - they are still two completely different instruments.

By your contention, you believe that the screenshot below means that there is a "blurring of the lines" between clocks, discs, processors, memory, networks and thermometers! I think that's ridiculous.


None of the context is removed. The message to which was responded is included in the response.

Sigh. Do you really think context is the last post and the last post alone? It seems you would feel at home on stack exchange.

To reiterate the point, including only the last post removes the context in which the last post was made.

Quote
None of the actual context can be removed or altered by me, as it is both cemented and easily found in the thread. Few people seem unable to cope with cutting the repetition out. I don't think there are any well defined rules about what an instrument is called based on what properties. The archetypes keep evolving with technology. The new Keithley DMM range would be another example of the lines blurring. These devices can display voltage measurements over time in real time and has more advanced triggering options than most oscilloscopes. Is it an oscilloscope? Is it a DMM?

So, you do contend that my screenshot indicates that there is a "blurring of the lines" between clocks, discs, processors, memory, networks and thermometers! Bizarre.
There are lies, damned lies, statistics - and ADC/DAC specs.
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