Down and dirty beginners oscilloscope?

[asisensei]

Hi all,
I know it's been talked up and down on the forums, I know, I've searched and read for it seems like days. What I really want to know is what is a good, inexpensive oscilloscope for the total beginner to get? I'm looking at reliability, the manufacturer providing timely updates to the firm and software, quality and standing behind the equipment. Looking at the available scopes, which ones have the least bugs? Many of the conversations on the board are older, so how has the equipment matured and are the bugs finally worked out now? I know things like the Rigol 1052 has been a workhorse, but is it worth it to get one and hack it or is it better to get something like a Siglent sds1072cml which by the specs, is much better that the Rigol? Thanks for listening.

[ataradov]

Rigol DS1054Z.

[Wuerstchenhund]

What I really want to know is what is a good, inexpensive oscilloscope for the total beginner to get?

That depends on

a) what you want to do

and

b) your budget

I know things like the Rigol 1052 has been a workhorse, but is it worth it to get one and hack it or is it better to get something like a Siglent sds1072cml which by the specs, is much better that the Rigol?

Both Rigol DS1052 and Siglent SDS1072CML are bottom-of-the-barrel scopes and were great choices a couple of years ago, but both have been replaced by more capable successors since then.

Rigol has the DS1000z Series of low-cost 4ch scopes where the lowest bandwidth model (DS1054z) is shockingly cheap, plus it can easily be hacked to provide >100MHz bandwith. The hardware is at a decent quality level (especially considering its low price) and the firmware is somewhat mature (many of the initial bugs have been fixed by now). At the moment there is probably no better bang for the buck than the DS1054z.

Siglent has recently come out with the SDS1000X Series which is a replacement for the old SDS1000CxL. As their predecessors the SDS1000X are 2ch scopes, plus they are pretty new so there's little experience as to bugs and issues. Plus the prices are close to what Rigol asks for it's 4ch DS1054z so it's really a no-brainer.

I'm looking at reliability, the manufacturer providing timely updates to the firm and software, quality and standing behind the equipment.

Yeah, I'd like to get that, too  The simple fact is that you get what you pay for, and despite the cheap Chinese kit real quality equipment and proper support still costs some serious money.

Rigol and Siglent both offer only basic support, and pretty much any of its gear comes to market with at least several bugs which may or may not get fixed at some point later on. Rigol can be quite good at fixing bugs, but seems to do so only for the products that really sell in high numbers like the DS1000z or the DS2000 scopes. Others (like the DS6000) have still major bugs even after more than half a decade on the market, and it's unlikely that these bugs will ever get fixed. Siglent has shown to be more inept in fixing software, and while they eventually fixed some of the major bugs of its old SDS1000Cx scopes they seem to struggle to do the same for their newer, more complex scopes. The SDS2000 (not really a bottom-of-the-barrel scope) still suffers from major firmware problems even after two years on the market, and often updates even introduce new problems.

On the other hand, Rigol and Siglent kit is cheaper (often a lot) than similar big brand kit. You just have to be aware that there's no such thing as free lunch, and the lack of support and maturity is part of the reason why the Chinese B-brands can be so cheap.

I myself had various Siglent and Rigol products, plus there are a number of devices from both manufacturers in my direct environment. However, at the end I found I could not live with the various quirks and issues, and went back to 2nd hand big brand gear which is regularly more mature, more reliable and (despite being used) often still much better supported than new B-brand kit.

Having said that, for a beginner the Rigol DS1054z is a great scope, and the remaining bugs shouldn't present any major obstacles for someone who does his first step in electronics. It's really an incredible good value for money, and should serve well until you have outgrown it, at which point I'd then start looking at the big brands.

[rf-loop]

Siglent has recently come out with the SDS1000X Series which is a replacement for the old SDS1000CxL. As their predecessors the SDS1000X are 2ch scopes, plus they are pretty new so there's little experience as to bugs and issues. Plus the prices are close to what Rigol asks for it's 4ch DS1054z so it's really a no-brainer.

I have owned both.
After short use for one work what need _cheap_  4 channel oscilloscope I made conclusion that I do not want anymore use this DS1000Z for any purpose.   
Also it was case where do not daily adjust scope for different tests.  Sorry but I do like these shared vertical adjustments for all channels.

SDS1000X have some advantages over DS1000Z.
-Bigger display (8" vs 7")
-separate vertical adjustments
-internal 50 ohm input impedance or is is better say resistance. Rigol -
-lot of less signal noise
-always switchable Sinc on/off (and also not this Sinc joke what Rigol have. Explanation in other thread)
-always bacround running history, up to 80000 previous waveforms. Rigol -
-max 60000wfm/s in normal mode. Rigol much less
-256 level intensity grading and far better than in DS1000Z
-color grading, Rigol -
-max 60000wfm/s mask test and speed independent of result, Rigol much slower and also speed depends result what leaads to extremely low speed
-max 500000 segment/s speed in Sequence mode with timestamps. Rigol - (or some kind of slow frame recorder)
-true analog 500uV/div full bandwidht sensitivity. Rigol - (Rigol 1mV/div is pixel zoomed fake sensitivity and perhaps also 2mV/div in  is not true analog sensitivity.)
-much better trigger accuracy (perhaps least partially due to Rigol noisy input?)
-when I owned Rigol I also used it small time to common purposes "looking around" and there was lot of situations where scope crash and only solution was shut off and start agen what also was frustrating due to long boot time.

About Rigol Sinc and vertical sensitivity



examples about Rigol noise. All as perfect face to face and both just fresh selfcal.


It need also note that this is 200MHz model. 100MHz model have aaround 3dB less noise (due to bandwidth) and this is also confifrmed by tests).



No need comment.



Then if just look Siglent SDS1000X and Owon XDS3000A
(but here need also note that Owon is 100MHz model and Siglent is 200MHz model)
Single shots.


Not bad.


In this case my opinion is that Owon beats Siglent clearly (also Zoom is better because Owon have vertically higher zoom window. And Owon have full vertical range display where Rigol and Siglent only 80% from full scale)  And lot of better TFT what Rigol or Siglent. Better contrast and brightness and wiev angle.

[tggzzz]

I know it's been talked up and down on the forums, I know, I've searched and read for it seems like days.

In that case you will know that the answer depends on your budget and what you want to use it for.

[pascal_sweden]

Is it really true that the Owon has a much lower noise level?

From the pictures above it makes me conclude that the Owon has the lowest noise level, then comes the Siglent, and finally comes the Rigol.

Is it really true that the Rigol has the worst noise level of all of them?
Is this both on the DS1000Z series and the DS2000A series?

Which Owon and Siglent models were used for these noise level measurements?
Just to double check that we are comparing apples with apples

[rf-loop]

Is it really true that the Owon has a much lower noise level?

From the pictures above it makes me conclude that the Owon has the lowest noise level, then comes the Siglent, and finally comes the Rigol.

Is it really true that the Rigol has the worst noise level of all of them?
Is this both on the DS1000Z series and the DS2000A series?

Which Owon and Siglent models were used for these noise level measurements?
Just to double check that we are comparing apples with apples

With Owon and Siglent. This was NOT noise level compare test. It was only overall look to some things face to face. But it also show something about noise.

Siglent model in images:
SDS1202X  (200MHz) 
(if substract around 3dB from Siglent noise then it is somehow comparable with these named Owon and Rigol)

Owon model in images:
XDS3102A  (100MHz)
(note: in image it is selected to run in 8bit ADC mode just for more near  apples to apples)

Rigol model in images:
DS1074Z   (@100MHz)

If look front end noise Rigol drops clearly to its own class below both of these more expensive scopes. All can understand that 4 channel scope with Rigol price there must be also other things than el cheapo solutions (example in front end) perhaps just goverment subvention money for get more export. We all know that Rigol is "Beijing" company".

[ataradov]

If you are a beginner, I don't see how this level of nose is going to be a limiting factor. For general use it is perfectly acceptable, and 4 channels is a really good thing to have, so I would not even look at anything with 2 channels for a first/singe scope.

[Karel]

Don't buy anything from Siglent if you are not sure you don't want to sell it on Ebay later...

[tautech]

If you are a beginner, I don't see how this level of nose is going to be a limiting factor. For general use it is perfectly acceptable, and 4 channels is a really good thing to have, so I would not even look at anything with 2 channels for a first/singe scope.

Maybe 
Have you seen this thread?
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/ds1054z-noisy-front-end/

[tautech]

Don't buy anything from Siglent if you are not sure you don't want to sell it on Ebay later...

You overlook that Rigol was involved in similar behaviour, so don't buy either?

[ataradov]

Have you seen this thread?

Yes, I have. What are you looking for at 1 mV/div scale? I'm not saying that it is not a problem for any application, but most hobby uses will never go this far. When you work at those levels, your hardware has to be designed accordingly, and at that point you should not have questions on what scope to pick.

[ataradov]

And just for some perspective. Here is a picture of a Tek TDS2024B with input terminated. It does not go below 20 mV/div and at that setting it automatically limits the the bandwidth to 20 MHz.

That Tek is still sold for $1000-2000.

[tautech]

Have you seen this thread?

Yes, I have. What are you looking for at 1 mV/div scale?

PSU ripple would be the most common use.

I'm not saying that it is not a problem for any application, but most hobby uses will never go this far.

Rubbish

Define hobbyist. 
Someone with no qualifications yet is involved in design and build?
Hundreds of EEVblog members would match this criteria.

One needs to know what one measures is reasonably accurate and at low levels any noise is reason to question what you see. While there are ways to tune noise from signals of interest, the lower the starting point the better.

And just for some perspective. Here is a picture of a Tek TDS2024B with input terminated. It does not go below 20 mV/div and at that setting it automatically limits the the bandwidth to 20 MHz.

It does if the input is set to a 1:1 probe.

BTW
I've got a 2012B


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[tautech]

And just for some perspective. Here is a picture of a Tek TDS2024B with input terminated. It does not go below 20 mV/div and at that setting it automatically limits the the bandwidth to 20 MHz.

How can this be a comparison? 
A 20 + yr old design against recent design....you'd expect a modern design to whip the Tek and some do.

[Muxr]

Don't buy anything from Siglent if you are not sure you don't want to sell it on Ebay later...

Why is that?

[ataradov]

Why is that?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/

And yes, Rigol did similar things, but not anymore. The jury is still out on Siglent.

[asisensei]

Thanks everyone for the responses. My budget is fairly low and I'm just getting into this as a hobby to work of vintage stereo's. I don't have any training, I'm reading the Navy manual to learn the basics. I know people talk about the Rigol DS1054Z, I see the bug thread and wonder. Wouldn't the older, more mature inexpensive scopes work? Although I'd like to live in shiny new thing land, I'm full time in grad school now and am using this to help get my mind off the stress.

[Muxr]

Why is that?

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/siglent-they-filed-a-'wrongful-trademark-claim'/

And yes, Rigol did similar things, but not anymore. The jury is still out on Siglent.

Thanks! That's kind of messed up.

[Muxr]

Could the noise difference be explained with the sample memory setting or bandwidth limiting, although based on those screenshots it looks like that's not the issue?

Dave got a quite a bit of noise out of the Tek MDO scope, which are pretty beastly scopes:

https://youtu.be/Znwp0pK8Tzk?t=669

[ataradov]

I see the bug thread and wonder. Wouldn't the older, more mature inexpensive scopes work?

No. All low cost scopes have bugs. With more popular models, you see more people trying and you get more feedback. But in reality, you are not very likely to hit most of those bugs.

"Mature" with low cost scopes mostly means "abandoned". Manufacturers have no money to improve software on multiple models at the same time.

[tggzzz]

Thanks everyone for the responses. My budget is fairly low and I'm just getting into this as a hobby to work of vintage stereo's. I don't have any training, I'm reading the Navy manual to learn the basics. I know people talk about the Rigol DS1054Z, I see the bug thread and wonder. Wouldn't the older, more mature inexpensive scopes work? Although I'd like to live in shiny new thing land, I'm full time in grad school now and am using this to help get my mind off the stress.

For those purposes virtually any scope will be sufficient. If money is tight then I would go for virtually any old analogue scope, preferably one that has a 1mV/div setting.

Then, as and when you have more money and different objectives, you will be in a better position to know what you need.

Not worrying about high bandwidth (10MHz is more than sufficient) will enable you to use scopes that other people are simply throwing out. Certainly my local hackspace has more scopes like that than we know what to do with; some are marked "for disposal" and it won't be worth us trying to sell them.

So have a look in local adverts, on ebay, and at local hackspaces or maker spaces. Don't pay more than $20, unless it is for a working Tektronix 

[tautech]

Thanks everyone for the responses. My budget is fairly low and I'm just getting into this as a hobby to work of vintage stereo's. I don't have any training, I'm reading the Navy manual to learn the basics. I know people talk about the Rigol DS1054Z, I see the bug thread and wonder. Wouldn't the older, more mature inexpensive scopes work? Although I'd like to live in shiny new thing land, I'm full time in grad school now and am using this to help get my mind off the stress.

Of course they will and well for most that you will need to start with. Don't be too tempted by old CRO's, while some are still very nice, should it bust could you fix it?

Of the models I have sold the SDS1102CML has been the most popular. Sold to hobbyists and repair technicians and feedback has been very positive as it is a mature product. You won't sacrifice much BW selecting a 1072CML and if you want to save a little more the SDS1***CNL series is just as reliable but with less memory. I have 15 units of SDS1102CNL in a military training school for a couple of years with no problems.
http://www.siglentamerica.com/pdxx.aspx?id=50&T=2&tid=1

When I selected a brand to represent, one of the criteria was 400V channel inputs of which Siglent has maintained on all models and IMO is another feature overlooked by amateurs when selecting a scope.
Why?
Mainly for repair of mains powered SMPS were the primary side is often ~325 VDC and above the max channel input rating of many scopes, not that this might matter too much for those experienced, but newies make mistakes and blown inputs in scopes I sell is something I can do without.

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[Fungus]

For most of the time I use my Analog Discovery... Unless you have a good reason you need 100M and all other adv functions, you can always get this cheap $99 toy that is actually quite powerful.

Where can I get one for $99?

[Fungus]

No need comment.

If it can pick up 1mV of noise at 20ns/div then it should be commended.

If your 'scope doesn't have that noise then it's because it doesn't have enough bandwidth. That's worse.