Author Topic: LeCroy 454 Teardown  (Read 10706 times)

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Offline vaualbus

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LeCroy 454 Teardown
« on: January 23, 2016, 07:07:47 pm »
So here some photo of the inside of the lecroy wavesurfer that I found and picked up in a trash at my university.

The PC motherboard




The Scope


The back of the acquisition board
















Someone know where to find the "WS400 Series Control Program" dvd, and the "Startup Disk for WS400 Series Control Program" floppy disk? I need them for the reinstall the os.
 

Offline nctnico

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #1 on: January 23, 2016, 07:13:43 pm »
Be carefull with the open frame power supply when working on the scope! What a death-trap  :palm:
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #2 on: January 23, 2016, 09:22:15 pm »
So here some photo of the inside of the lecroy wavesurfer that I found and picked up in a trash at my university.

Nice find! The WaveSurfer 400 was LeCroy's first suitcase format scope. It was made by Iwatsu which means the build quality is very good (better than som of the subsequent WaveSurfer/WaveRunner models). The CPU is a P3 Celeron on a board with a VIA chipset running Windows XP Embedded. It's a pretty slow system but the WaveSurfer 400 didn't had many options and was a more basic scope so that was not much of a problem. Still, it has the great MAUI user interface with touch screen, and makes still a great general purpose scope.

The WS400 is a X-Stream scope, however because of the slow processing support for this scope was stopped several years ago, which means the later X-Stream software updates won't work on it.

Quote
Someone know where to find the "WS400 Series Control Program" dvd, and the "Startup Disk for WS400 Series Control Program" floppy disk? I need them for the reinstall the os.

No, you don't. You can re-install the scope with a generic Windows XP Pro CD with valid product key (the Embedded one won't work!). However, what you need are the factory calibration files that are in the 'calibration' folder on the 2nd hard drive partition (d:). Without them the scope will not work. So if your scope has still the hard drive the first thing to make sure is to create a backup of that folder.

Calibration data aside, all you have to do is to create two partitions (C: and D:). After you have installed XP restore the calibration data on drive D:, then go to the Teledyne LeCroy website, download the last software package for the WaveSurfer 400 and install it. Voila, scope restored.  ;)

While you're at it I'd recommend to replace the (by now probably on its last legs) 2.5" EIDE hard disk with a modern EIDE SSD (i.e. Transcend, not crap like Kingspec!), which makes working with the scope a lot nicer.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2016, 09:26:01 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #3 on: January 23, 2016, 10:29:41 pm »
I arleady though of change with an ssd and update the ram.
But the problem is that I don't have the original hard disk unfortunally.
What I should do?
I need these software than.
But even before I need to make the scope work!
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/repair/lecroy-454-repair/
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #4 on: January 23, 2016, 10:42:56 pm »
Maybe is possible to upgrade the cpu too?
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #5 on: January 23, 2016, 10:58:18 pm »
Nice find!   


Quote
While you're at it I'd recommend to replace the (by now probably on its last legs) 2.5" EIDE hard disk with a modern EIDE SSD (i.e. Transcend, not crap like Kingspec!), which makes working with the scope a lot nicer.
   :-DD  Times have changed.   You know I have to ask, did you try it?


How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
Software, documentation and test reports for the low cost NanoVNA, V2+4 and LiteVNA may be found here:
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #6 on: January 24, 2016, 01:16:00 pm »
I arleady though of change with an ssd and update the ram.
But the problem is that I don't have the original hard disk unfortunally.
What I should do?
I need these software than.

The software for recreating the installation is factory-proprietary and not available to outsiders. If you can't get hold of the original drive (maybe ask around, whoever dumped the scope may still have it) then the only way to restore the calibration data is a factory calibration done by LeCroy.

On a positive note, it may not be even that expensive.

Quote
While you're at it I'd recommend to replace the (by now probably on its last legs) 2.5" EIDE hard disk with a modern EIDE SSD (i.e. Transcend, not crap like Kingspec!), which makes working with the scope a lot nicer.
   :-DD  Times have changed.   You know I have to ask, did you try it?

???
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #7 on: January 24, 2016, 02:15:12 pm »

Quote
While you're at it I'd recommend to replace the (by now probably on its last legs) 2.5" EIDE hard disk with a modern EIDE SSD (i.e. Transcend, not crap like Kingspec!), which makes working with the scope a lot nicer.
   :-DD  Times have changed.   You know I have to ask, did you try it?

???

Old age setting in?


Had replaced the drive on the 8500A with an SSD.  It's been working very well.   I had bought two different ones to try.  One SATA one PATA.   The SATA with adapter went in the 8500A, the PATA is going into this system.  Different brand, we will see.

Just be careful with SSDs in that scope, as they tend to suffer from file system corruption (I tried several ones, including the Transcend PATA SSD on your picture), and all suffered from the same problem.

The reason seems to be that the SSDs only really support UDMA modes, which for PATA requires a 80 conductor cable to work reliably. The scope however uses a 44pin cable (there are no 84 conductor cables, at least I'm not aware of them) which is not really suited for UDMA66 or faster modes. Another forum user (Tunersandwich) who has the same scope made the same experience, he also tried a SSHD but that was a no-go either.

In the end I went back to spinning rust, i.e. a modern fast SATA laptop drive connected through a cheap SATA-PATA bridge. Works fine and absolutely reliable.

Quote

Last time I asked you were going to try it and I am curious if you ever installed the SSD in yours?        The 8500A has been in there about a year now and the 64Xi about 8 months.   Not a single problem.
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
Software, documentation and test reports for the low cost NanoVNA, V2+4 and LiteVNA may be found here:
https://github.com/joeqsmith
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #8 on: January 24, 2016, 03:12:08 pm »

Quote
While you're at it I'd recommend to replace the (by now probably on its last legs) 2.5" EIDE hard disk with a modern EIDE SSD (i.e. Transcend, not crap like Kingspec!), which makes working with the scope a lot nicer.
   :-DD  Times have changed.   You know I have to ask, did you try it?

???

Old age setting in?


Had replaced the drive on the 8500A with an SSD.  It's been working very well.   I had bought two different ones to try.  One SATA one PATA.   The SATA with adapter went in the 8500A, the PATA is going into this system.  Different brand, we will see.

Just be careful with SSDs in that scope, as they tend to suffer from file system corruption (I tried several ones, including the Transcend PATA SSD on your picture), and all suffered from the same problem.

The reason seems to be that the SSDs only really support UDMA modes, which for PATA requires a 80 conductor cable to work reliably. The scope however uses a 44pin cable (there are no 84 conductor cables, at least I'm not aware of them) which is not really suited for UDMA66 or faster modes. Another forum user (Tunersandwich) who has the same scope made the same experience, he also tried a SSHD but that was a no-go either.

In the end I went back to spinning rust, i.e. a modern fast SATA laptop drive connected through a cheap SATA-PATA bridge. Works fine and absolutely reliable.

Quote

Last time I asked you were going to try it and I am curious if you ever installed the SSD in yours?        The 8500A has been in there about a year now and the 64Xi about 8 months.   Not a single problem.

I guess then you obviously missed that I also said, several times since then, that the issue has been fixed in the later Transcend PATA SSDs (like yours)?

This aside, it's still a problem with many EIDE-to-SATA brigdes and 44pin cables.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 03:14:14 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2016, 05:15:41 pm »
Any way I have to repair the scope first.
Please take a look at the post I linked before!
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2016, 05:21:25 pm »
No doubt they work as I have been running two of them for some time now in my scopes.     Yes, you have stated that you believe they corrected the problem. 

What I am asking is if you personally have installed one in your own scope yet?  Not trying to call you out.  The only reason I ask is I am curious if you are basing your advice on my experience, which is only one data point or if you have now seen it work for yourself.   

How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
Software, documentation and test reports for the low cost NanoVNA, V2+4 and LiteVNA may be found here:
https://github.com/joeqsmith
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2016, 05:28:06 pm »
Any way I have to repair the scope first.
Please take a look at the post I linked before!

I had read your post on the suspected power supply problems.   Sorry but I have no experience with that DSO.  Have you looked into seeing if a service manual was available for it?   
How electrically robust is your meter?? https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCsK99WXk9VhcghnAauTBsbg
Software, documentation and test reports for the low cost NanoVNA, V2+4 and LiteVNA may be found here:
https://github.com/joeqsmith
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2016, 05:47:10 pm »
What I am asking is if you personally have installed one in your own scope yet? 

Well, my WR64Xi is still in pieces (just can't find the time  |O) but my WP7300A runs fine with an intel SATA SSD since conversion (which I did immediately after I got it).

Funny enough, a long time ago I had a similar scope as the OP (a WS 422) and I tried SSDs, but that also caused silent corruption due to the described issue. But I'm sure had I tried with a current Transcend PATA SSD then it would probably work fine.

Quote
Not trying to call you out.  The only reason I ask is I am curious if you are basing your advice on my experience, which is only one data point or if you have now seen it work for yourself.

Well, aside from the LeCroy's I had and still have various gear where I replaced hard drives with SSDs, i.e. my R&S FSP spectrum analyzer (Windows XP Pro), or the various R&S CMU200 (DOS) and CRTUs (DOS+Windows 2000) I had. Spinning rust in test gear is like a ticking time bomb and drives drives in 2nd hand instruments are often starting to show issues, so when I get a new device these days I always replace it with a SSD (after creating a disk backup of course). Aside from the issue with the 44pin UDMA modes I never had a problem, although to be fair, I haven't come across a similar config (using long 44pin EIDE cables) as in those LeCroy scopes. Usually it's either newer kit with SATA (most easy variant), or it's 40pin/80pin EIDE (which doesn't suffer from the data corruption issue), and the few cases like the R&S CMU200/CRTU which uses 44pin EIDE the cable is really short (approx 3cm) and the controller is so old that it doesn't run excessive UDMA modes.

I like LeCroy scopes, I really do, but the disk interface in those older suitcase-style scopes wasn't really a great solution.
« Last Edit: January 24, 2016, 05:50:30 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Offline pravardhan85

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2016, 05:37:16 am »
Hi Alberto Vaudagna,

We had a chat personally in your gmail email on 24th Jan 2016, if you remember.

Any improvements on your Wavesurfer 454 scope?

I have the HDD in the scope and i want to know if i connect an ordinary ATX SMPS to the motherboard, will the scope boot? What connectors and boards have to be removed or kept?

The power supply section of this scope is so bad and all the wire colours are in grey. I have to meet the person(s) who designed this scope (I am just joking).

Since you are looking for the software and I have the HDD, may be i can help you if i can boot my scope and give you the contents in the D drive. Or may be image recovery of the HDD.

Thanks & Bye,
Pravardhan U.S
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2017, 05:09:16 pm »
Sorry for the late late response. If you connect a PSU to the motherboard it run and boot off the hard disk with no problems. Now I wish you still have the HDD cable because in that case the HDD is powered by the motherboard arleady.
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #15 on: July 14, 2017, 10:56:54 am »
SO update. I have not the scope up and running, install windows Xp convert a 40pin ide cable to a 44pin ide cableso I can use a smaller harddrive (that was very painfull). So now the only think I miss the factory calibration data. Anyone with one of this scope will share to me the factory cal data that are in D:???
Thanks,
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #16 on: July 14, 2017, 11:20:16 am »
convert a 40pin ide cable to a 44pin ide cable

Not a good idea. First, 40pin IDE and 44pin IDE have a different pitch width, and because the scope uses UDMA you really want to get the additional grounding the 80/88 conductor cable that the standard dictates for UDMA-66 and up to avoid data corruption.

An alternative might be one of the cheap IDE-SATA bridges that can be plugged in the board's IDE connector and convert that to a SATA port and power port. Then just use a standard SATA cable, run the power cable and connect a SATA hard drive.

Quote
So now the only think I miss the factory calibration data. Anyone with one of this scope will share to me the factory cal data that are in D:???

There are a few WaveSurfer 400 Series scopes on ebay, you could try asking the sellers if they would share the cal data with you.
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #17 on: July 14, 2017, 11:58:16 am »
Ya I knew that was not a good idea but I wanted (I had another old HD that uise the notmal 40pin ide, around but I find that was not working) the scope to run, I will buy and undapter sometimes soon.
So I will try on ebay then. I wished that somebody here have one of this scope and can help me!
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #18 on: July 14, 2017, 12:12:50 pm »
Any way do you know if the scope should working alsop without cal data? Or it supposed to no working?
 

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #19 on: July 14, 2017, 01:22:15 pm »
It will work without calibration data, although it will complain during loading of the X-Stream scope software, and it can't be trusted that measurements or even waveshapes are correct.

If you get it working reliably I'd consider sending it to LeCroy for calibration.
 

Offline abraxa

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #20 on: July 14, 2017, 03:08:00 pm »
If you want, I can send you the calib data of a 454. You can download the software at http://teledynelecroy.com/support/softwaredownload/documents.aspx?sc=12 (select WaveSurfer 400). Hope you can get the scope up and running :)
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #21 on: July 14, 2017, 04:16:45 pm »
yes please send me the cal data
 

Offline vaualbus

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Re: LeCroy 454 Teardown
« Reply #22 on: July 14, 2017, 08:22:54 pm »
So how you do the self test on this scope??
 


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