EEVblog Electronics Community Forum
Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: oerg866 on October 19, 2018, 09:53:46 pm
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Hi there,
I'm a student looking to actually get a decent workbench setup for developing and repairing electronics. I have a 1979 Philips PM3264 100MHz 4ch analog oscilloscope which has a lot of flaws, needed several replaced capacitors and is actually awful for anything digital. But hey - it works! But I did occasionally have to borrow my good friend's Rigol.
I've got a bit of money saved up for just this purpose which amounts to 650 Euros (about 750 USD). I live in Germany if anyone can reccomend somewhere to buy one.
Features my wildest fantasies include are:
* 200MHz bandwidth
* 4 channels
* Integrated reasonably accurate digital multimeter, I'd like to measure true RMS AC voltages in video gear (PAL SDTV stuffs).
* Spectrum analyzer for audio purposes (Maybe 200KHz bandwidth?)
* Ability to record input for a short time at least and transfer over to PC
* Remote controllable via PC
* VGA or DVI/HDMI video output that I can connect to my capture card <-- This is optional as I've seen hardly any scopes have it.
* Probes included
* Some sort of provisions for function generator and logic analyzer maybe?
Tell me if some of these ideas are too wild for my budget. I haven't owned a DSO before.
I have no problem with buying used, if it can save me some cash.
I also have no problem with buying a cheaper model which can then be unlocked to the specifications I want.
I have been looking at a Siglent SDS1104X-E. I'd like to software unlock it to 200MHz. People seem to like it but I don't want to jump on it and rather hear what some more experienced users have to say.
Best regards,
Eric
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Define reasonable accurate RMS meter. An oscilloscope is accurate to a few percent at most. The amplitude measurements are more or less and indication and on-screen DMMs are more a gimmick than a replacement for a real DMM.
If you want to record video then look at MicSig's tbook 1000 series. These are the only oscilloscopes I know of which can capture a signal as a video. Here is a video of a signal I captured with mine:
(https://farm3.staticflickr.com/2888/34280950896_93b39a1a3f_b.jpg) (https://flic.kr/p/UehQnw)
Batronix sells these.
If you like to up-hack then a GW Instek GDS1054B can be an option. It costs slightly more compared to a Rigol DS1054Z but 200MHz is possible (only on 2 channels simultaneously due to the limited samplerate). This oscilloscope has 1MPts FFT, fast data transfer and input filtering (which can be handy when working with audio signals to filter noise away).
Getting digital channels (and a decent oscilloscope) will be difficult with your budget.
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I didn't mean capture as in video, I meant realtime display output (also useful for streaming when I'm bored)
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I didn't mean capture as in video, I meant realtime display output (also useful for streaming when I'm bored)
The SDS1004X-E's are almost realtime using their webserver via LAN or WiFi.
Crappy vid shot on phone:
https://youtu.be/W30AqcDQL18
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I didn't mean capture as in video, I meant realtime display output (also useful for streaming when I'm bored)
It's actually pretty common to find, but generally on higher end scopes. As mentioned, the webserver output could be a good alternative.
I think there are a bunch of options, including the Siglent you mention, that are good choices, but the hardest thing to find is going to be the integrated DMM. They do exist, but they're generally not the best scopes, it seems, and I have yet to see one that really seemed like it was integrated in a meaningful way instead of just being two things in one box. I'd aim for non-DMM scopes, then just get a decent DMM. If size is a concern.... getting a small one is not going to be much more than the scope itself.
I guess the exception for integrated DMMs being worthwhile is in portable scopes - so if you want a "handheld" model, building in a DMM makes a lot more sense in my eyes.
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I don't wish to do super sophisticated measurements. I want the scope to take over when my UT61-E (which has provided excellent service for what it cost but does have its shortcomings) fails to do the job. It has trouble with true RMS AC volt measurements unfortunately :-(
@tautech: That is pretty good. How is the refresh rate when looking at it through the websierver? I can't tell through that video.
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True RMS measurements are difficult for most handheld DMMs. If you need to make true RMS measurements with better accuracy in the audio frequency range then look at the Vici 8145 bench DMM as a cheap alternative. It costs around 175 euro.
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I've got a bit of money saved up for just this purpose which amounts to 650 Euros (about 750 USD). I live in Germany if anyone can reccomend somewhere to buy one.
Batronix is good:
eg. https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html (https://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Siglent-SDS1104X-E.html)
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@tautech: That is pretty good. How is the refresh rate when looking at it through the websierver? I can't tell through that video.
Thinking about how best to show this...........thinking about a slow pulse with the DSO and laptop displays both in shot.
Without additional ideas, I'll dream up something to video in the next day or so.
Not sure if it will be faster with a LAN link as opposed to the WiFi that the video was done with.....probably would be just a little faster 100Mb/s vs 56.......
The X-E models have fast LAN HW.......
Have a look here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/open-source-lxi-tools-and-liblxi-v1-0-released-for-gnulinux/msg1394796/#msg1394796)
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The actual network bandwidth doesn't much. Compressed video doesn't need a whole lot of bandwidth. A few Mbit/s is enough.
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True RMS measurements are difficult for most handheld DMMs. If you need to make true RMS measurements with better accuracy in the audio frequency range then look at the Vici 8145 bench DMM as a cheap alternative. It costs around 175 euro.
That sounds pretty good actually, I managed to find it for 140... Defintely going to look at that. Thank you!
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@tautech: That is pretty good. How is the refresh rate when looking at it through the websierver? I can't tell through that video.
This should give you a better idea:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92F_FDP9_Rg (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=92F_FDP9_Rg)
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Hey
If you really want an all-in-one unit look at OWON's XDS3000-series which they call "n+1". You get the basic scope function with 8" touch screen, and can add an arbitrary waveform generator (AWG), data logger, and a multi-meter. It has lots of connectivity via LAN or USB, plus can have a VGA monitor connected.
See owon.com, then oscilloscopes, then benchtop.
They have lots of videos that explain some features of their scopes and that are good just to learn about DSOs in general.
I bought an XDS2101A as I had a limited budget but wanted the 12-bit resolution for audio.
In OWON's line, any with the 'A' suffix are 12- or 14-bits; the rest are 8-bit.
You can get OWON from Aliexpress stores, as well as from nominal "area reps". Ali usually has free shipping and most things are on sale. I bought mine from a vendor that is actually German but ships from China. The only weird part of the transaction was that when the scope shipped they gave me a DHL tracking number that DHL did not recognise for about five days - it took that long for the local carrier to get it into DHL's hands at Hong Kong. DHL does no local pickup or delivery from what I see, just the international part.
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While it's a bit more than €650, you might want to take a look at the Rohde&Schwarz RTC1000. (Get it used, if you can: a good scope makes designing a lot more enjoyable, so don't skimp on it). With the FFT function, you can easily do audio frequency analysis, and via the USB part, you can remotely control the oscilloscope from a PC and download data to a PC. It also has an Ethernet connection that you can use to control the instrument and display screenshots. Good luck! And please do let us know which one you opt for. Send a pic!
Rohde_TestWalker