DSOX1204G 200Mhz vs Used MSO3014A (Calibrated in 2018)

[erwets]

Apologies if this a poor question for this forum, but I was about to pull the trigger on a Keysight DSOX1204G when I happened to see a local seller offering a supposedly new MSOX3014A with a calibration certificate from 2008 for $2800. Since it's only a few hundred more, does anyone have any perspective on whether I should just buy the MSOX3014A? I definitely don't need the scope's full capabilities right now, and honestly the only thing that I would realistically use right off the bat is the larger screen. Not sure whether the warranty will hold, and what customer support looks like with a 2nd hand device. Overall, the MSOX3014A looks like it's in quality condition, but I would need to dig into it a bit more.

I appreciate any advice. Thanks!

EDIT: Calibrated in 2018

[Electro Fan]

Seems like at $2800 the MSO3014A is going to be more like 2x the price of the DSOX1204G rather than just a few hundred $ more.  On the other hand the MSO3014A is a lot more scope as it is 2 series up the line (but some of the gap is closed by the 1204G being a newer model).  As you say it might come down to how much you want the extra capabilities for the extra price.  One thing to consider is whatever software and accessories come with the MSO3014A.  If it happens to come with a bunch of the hardware and software options to make the full MSO (analog plus digital signal) capabilities sing and it’s in good condition and all operating to spec, the MSO3014A is a lot scope.  Fully optioned the new price on a 3014A is/was quite a bit more than a fully optioned 1204G.  Having said that, and not to confuse matters, for about the same price as the 1204G you could buy a new Siglent that would begin to approach the features and potentially exceed some of the performance and features of the 3014A. 

In your budget range you should probably enjoy the scope research process awhile longer to see some more choices and the tradeoffs.  No doubt you will get a fair amount of advice here in response to your inquiry.

[Electro Fan]

Might be some useful info in here (T being the successor to A):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-701-keysight-3000t-oscilloscope-review/msg582729/#msg582729

[erwets]

@Electro Fan. I appreciate the insight. The price comparison was against a fully optioned DSOX1204G 200MHz BW (apologies if that wasn't clear).

As for the other scopes, the fan scope these days seems to be the Siglent SDS2104X Plus. Unfortunately, I had the chance to use the 2104X and it honestly just felt subpar. I definitely don't want to start a flamewar, and I can't really point to any specific spec to say that the Keysight is better. By all accounts, it's actually worse on paper....but if just feels so right  I have also used a number of scopes for work, and I just like Keysight (granted a much higher tier of Keysight at work). Great UX, intuitive controls, polished product. It's hard to beat. Sucks that it command such a premium, but 

I'm open to hearing about SDS2104X Plus experiences, but I'm not sure that a spec-"off" will convince me. If anyone has converted to Siglent, I'd love to hear about it.

Afaik, the MSO3014A I'm looking at does not come with any software or hardware options beyond the 100 MHz BW and, of course, the logic probe + requisite unlocked software that follows an MSO scope.

[Electro Fan]

Yep, the Siglent 2104X Plus is pretty much the ~$1300 (with discount) reference scope around here.  Some long threads and more posts about it every day.  But it’s a personal preference thing when it comes to the UI.  I wasn’t sure from your post - does the 3014A include the digital logic probe and some of the MSO software?

[erwets]

Yep. Comes with the probe and MSO software.

[Electro Fan]

It’s going to be interesting to see how your affinity for one or the other of the Keysight/Agilent scopes holds up against the impending avalanche of input from Siglent enthusiasts.  I fully get where you are coming from especially since you are familiar with Keysight at work.  I’d say hold your ground, keep an open mind, and see where this thread takes you.  Enjoy the process and congrats on your scope whichever way you go.

[rodpp]

If the MSO3014A is in your price range, I would go for it.
It can be hacked to liberate all options (including the function generator) and 200MHz easily. And if you change some smd passive components, it can be upgraded to 500MHz.
It's a very good, responsive, nice to use scope. You'll have 50ohms inputs, active probe possibilities, fast waveform updates, etc.

[2N3055]

Apologies if this a poor question for this forum, but I was about to pull the trigger on a Keysight DSOX1204G when I happened to see a local seller offering a supposedly new MSOX3014A with a calibration certificate from 2008 for $2800. Since it's only a few hundred more, does anyone have any perspective on whether I should just buy the MSOX3014A? I definitely don't need the scope's full capabilities right now, and honestly the only thing that I would realistically use right off the bat is the larger screen. Not sure whether the warranty will hold, and what customer support looks like with a 2nd hand device. Overall, the MSOX3014A looks like it's in quality condition, but I would need to dig into it a bit more.

I appreciate any advice. Thanks!

MSOX3014A  is much more capable scope than DSOX1204G.
But if you don't plan to hack it, make sure to check what software options you get with it. DSOX1204G comes with protocol decodes for free, while ALL of those options are paid for options on 3000A series.

I warn you not to consider conversion to 500MHz to be trivial, it is not for the faint hearted, and  requires good skills and equipment. You have to decide what would be your risk appetite for that. But forum has several topics where people understood (wrongly) that it would be trivial and now have broken scopes.

There are other scopes that can be had for the money. It all depends what you do with the scope and how you use it. If you need digital emulation of work with the  CRT scope, Keysight does that best. If you need  signal analysis capabilities, Infiniivision scopes are NOT it.

As a side note, high end PC based Keysights are more similar to LeCroy and R&S touch screen PC based scopes concept than to embedded Infiniivision series.

[erwets]

Thanks for the input

I warn you not to consider conversion to 500MHz to be trivial.

Yeah, it is very unlikely that I will perform any hardware upgrades. I will, however, hack the scope to open up 200MHz BW (as well as any software features I can unlock, including all possible decodes).

There are other scopes that can be had for the money.

What would you recommend that competes with the MSOX3014A at the ~$3k USD price range? I don't have an unlimited budget, but budget is also not my primary concern.

[rodpp]

I warn you not to consider conversion to 500MHz to be trivial, it is not for the faint hearted, and  requires good skills and equipment. You have to decide what would be your risk appetite for that. But forum has several topics where people understood (wrongly) that it would be trivial and now have broken scopes.

I never heard this before. Could you share links to topics where scopes were broken during the hardware mod?



Be trivial or not, of course, depends of the available tools and skills. What have to be done is replace one 1206 resistor and thirty 0603 components (resistors, capacitors and inductors). It can be trivial if you have the tools and skills, but can be impossible if you have not.

(Component list and board photos: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg987126/#msg987126)

[2N3055]

I warn you not to consider conversion to 500MHz to be trivial, it is not for the faint hearted, and  requires good skills and equipment. You have to decide what would be your risk appetite for that. But forum has several topics where people understood (wrongly) that it would be trivial and now have broken scopes.

I never heard this before. Could you share links to topics where scopes were broken during the hardware mod?



Be trivial or not, of course, depends of the available tools and skills. What have to be done is replace one 1206 resistor and thirty 0603 components (resistors, capacitors and inductors). It can be trivial if you have the tools and skills, but can be impossible if you have not.

(Component list and board photos: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/dsox2000-and-3000-series-licence-have-anyone-tried-to-hack-that-scope/msg987126/#msg987126)

Sorry I'm not gonna search for you, but just today I read one where one user makes notes that he ripped pads from the board doing mods on his EDU scope and what the error was, while trying to help another one that tried to do hack himself and now scope doesn't work.
Truth is that most people that tried and failed are not going to trumpet it all proud here... They are not going to like to talk about it....

Hardware modifications are ALWAYS risky, from ESD damage, to soldering problems, or even stupid screwdriver that slips and plows off dozen of tiny, tiny 0201 components from the board  with tiniest touch... I'm not saying don't, and not saying it is impossible, but there is a risk to damage something that you paid several thousands and it worked before you went in because 10 guys in the back were yelling "beer, beer, beer..." and you thought it was easy.

You cannot base you recommendations as to how easy it is when you look at some people here that actually repair those scopes on daily basis (like The Steve) and someone I don't know and have no clue of his skill level.  OP might be most skillful engineer that works for NASA or complete beginner. We don't know.

In that case I like to err on the safe side...
I don't think people should be gallant or irresponsible with other people's money.

[erwets]

...OP might be most skillful engineer that works for NASA or complete beginner...

Or possibly even both! 

[rodpp]

Sorry I'm not gonna search for you, but just today I read one where one user makes notes that he ripped pads from the board doing mods on his EDU scope and what the error was, while trying to help another one that tried to do hack himself and now scope doesn't work.
Truth is that most people that tried and failed are not going to trumpet it all proud here... They are not going to like to talk about it....

Hardware modifications are ALWAYS risky, from ESD damage, to soldering problems, or even stupid screwdriver that slips and plows off dozen of tiny, tiny 0201 components from the board  with tiniest touch... I'm not saying don't, and not saying it is impossible, but there is a risk to damage something that you paid several thousands and it worked before you went in because 10 guys in the back were yelling "beer, beer, beer..." and you thought it was easy.

You cannot base you recommendations as to how easy it is when you look at some people here that actually repair those scopes on daily basis (like The Steve) and someone I don't know and have no clue of his skill level.  OP might be most skillful engineer that works for NASA or complete beginner. We don't know.

In that case I like to err on the safe side...
I don't think people should be gallant or irresponsible with other people's money.

I agree, we can't judge the OP or anyone capabilities to perform this hardware mod.

We can be objective explaining what have to be done: replace one 1204 resistor and 30 other 0603 components.

If the person never replaced 0603 components before, it is better to not try to learn it in a 3K scope, of course...


EDIT: Regarding a link to posts with broken scopes after mods tried, I only asked because I use to follow DSOX3K topics and never read such thing. And as you said "several topics", I asked. But forget it.

[nctnico]

Apologies if this a poor question for this forum, but I was about to pull the trigger on a Keysight DSOX1204G when I happened to see a local seller offering a supposedly new MSOX3014A with a calibration certificate from 2008 for $2800. Since it's only a few hundred more, does anyone have any perspective on whether I should just buy the MSOX3014A? I definitely don't need the scope's full capabilities right now, and honestly the only thing that I would realistically use right off the bat is the larger screen. Not sure whether the warranty will hold, and what customer support looks like with a 2nd hand device. Overall, the MSOX3014A looks like it's in quality condition, but I would need to dig into it a bit more.

I appreciate any advice. Thanks!

What other scopes did you look at? The R&S RTB2004 could be an interesting option for you as well (used or new). Personally I'm not impressed by Keysight's UI when you have to use more advanced features like math and protocol decoding. Going through the menus is a rather tedious process using the buttons and rotary knob. Also the memory depth on the Keysight scopes is super tiny compared to the competition (especially when you take into account that in a normal use case you end up with 1/4th of the memory per channel).

[kcbrown]

As for the other scopes, the fan scope these days seems to be the Siglent SDS2104X Plus. Unfortunately, I had the chance to use the 2104X and it honestly just felt subpar. I definitely don't want to start a flamewar, and I can't really point to any specific spec to say that the Keysight is better. By all accounts, it's actually worse on paper....but if just feels so right  I have also used a number of scopes for work, and I just like Keysight (granted a much higher tier of Keysight at work). Great UX, intuitive controls, polished product. It's hard to beat. Sucks that it command such a premium, but 

From what I've seen (and I've not used one of the Keysight scopes myself, so I can't say for sure), the Keysight kills everything on responsiveness of the controls.  Nothing else beats it, though some (such as the Instek GDS-1000B and GDS-2000E series) come close when the scope isn't under high load.

The Siglent 2000X+ scope is an incredible scope for its price range.  But good as it is, there's no way it can match a Keysight 3000 series scope except perhaps for noise floor.  This shouldn't be a surprise, seeing how the Keysight is nearly 4 times the price without serial decoding, and 5 times the price with it.


If you can afford it and it meets your needs for bandwidth, noise floor, etc., then the Keysight 3000 looks like it should be an excellent way to go.  Its new price is nearly twice what you're being asked to pay, and nothing else compares in responsiveness.  But make sure that it is fully functional before committing the funds.  I'm surprised that the seller is selling this one for this kind of price, and it makes me wonder if perhaps something is broken.

[erwets]

Thanks for the insights!

But make sure that it is fully functional before committing the funds.  I'm surprised that the seller is selling this one for this kind of price, and it makes me wonder if perhaps something is broken.

Yes, I'm hesitant for this very reason, otherwise I would have probably purchased it already. I do not know the party selling the scope, and I'm suspicious by nature  . I'm writing down all the things I would want to test before finalizing the deal, but it's hard to really check everything off the list. It would be pretty upsetting if I found out something was pretty off within the first 2 months of usage.

[Someone]

I'm writing down all the things I would want to test before finalizing the deal, but it's hard to really check everything off the list. It would be pretty upsetting if I found out something was pretty off within the first 2 months of usage.

Self-test "80% confidence level that the oscilloscope is operating properly". Or bring the cables to run a self-calibration, that will shake out any problems with the analog paths.

[kcbrown]

Yes, I'm hesitant for this very reason, otherwise I would have probably purchased it already. I do not know the party selling the scope, and I'm suspicious by nature  . I'm writing down all the things I would want to test before finalizing the deal, but it's hard to really check everything off the list. It would be pretty upsetting if I found out something was pretty off within the first 2 months of usage.

Well, fortunately, you can tell pretty much everything about the basic functionality of the scope with the probe calibration signal.  Just using that will allow you to test the signal inputs, the triggering system, the acquisition system, the CPU, the display, etc., perhaps even up to and including the bandwidth of the channel.  It's a 4 channel scope, and it's highly unlikely that the bandwidth of all channels would somehow be compromised, so if the signal looks the same (particularly at the corners of the square wave) across all channels then they're likely to be good to go in terms of the bandwidth.  This presumes that the square wave itself has at least one transition that's fast enough to exceed the input bandwidth.

I have to second the notion of using the scope's self-calibration as a test, too.

If all of that works, then the only question left would be the digital inputs, the external trigger input, and the signal generator.

If this scope isn't being supplied with the digital MSO probes then you'll have no good way of testing the digital inputs, so the most you'll likely be able to do is a visual inspection of the pins of the socket.

For the external trigger input, you'd need a signal generator or something to test that.

And obviously, you can't test the signal generator unless it's enabled (but if it is, then you can test that directly and then use it to test the external trigger input).


Oh, and you'll want to test all the knobs and buttons on the front panel to make sure they work, and perhaps the USB connectors as well.


Anyway, testing the scope should be relatively straightforward, all in all.

[bdunham7]

I appreciate any advice. Thanks!

Well first, perhaps I missed it but I see no mention of what you plan on doing with the scope.  So what is your use case--what for, how often, etc?

Secondly, are you going to be OK with a lot less memory than more modern scope have?  And yes, whether NOS or current new, those are both 'older' models.

Third, the decade-plus old scope is not going to have any warranty and given Keysight's tendencies lately, I'm pretty sure you're going to be paying your money and taking your chances.  If you were getting something truly remarkable, perhaps that would be OK, but are you?  I don't know--what makes that particular scope so attractive to you other than that it seems very nice and was expensive new?

[erwets]

Wow, your response alerted me to a glaring error in my title.

The scope was purchased (and last calibrated) in 2008. Editing my initial post. Thanks!

[bdunham7]

The scope was purchased (and last calibrated) in 2008. Editing my initial post. Thanks!

?? 

Apparently I don't know my HPAK models/dates, but I had a look and it seems the MSOX3014A (is that the one?) dates from 2014 or so.  So less old (model wise) than 2008.  Still a lot less memory, so what would your main use be?

[bdunham7]

The Siglent 2000X+ scope is an incredible scope for its price range.  But good as it is, there's no way it can match a Keysight 3000 series scope except perhaps for noise floor.  This shouldn't be a surprise, seeing how the Keysight is nearly 4 times the price without serial decoding, and 5 times the price with it.

200X the memory. 

[erwets]

…so what would your main use be?

Realistically it’s a hobby scope, so the use cases are incredibly varied. I’ve been avoiding answering the question because there isn’t really a single use case. Here is a glance at my current and recently finished projects:

1. Design and build of a series of microphones for studio recording. I’d like a dso that preforms very well as a “crt emulator.”

2. Fixing a number of issues with some small MCU-driven autonomous vehicles (with hard realtime requirements) containing some buggy critical RFIC components. This also includes some protocol debugging, although here I care about the underlying signal since it seems some thresholds are not being met. For any LA issues, I would just use my Saleae.

3. Design and build of some measurement devices intended for use on the bottom of hulls of container ships.

I want something that’s fun and enjoyable to use, and which allows me to focus on my problem domain, not the scope.

A suggestion was made for the RTB2004, and if I could find a deal for the R2K-COM4 bundle (which is the whole bundle afaik), I would consider it. But ~$4.5k after tax is just too much. 

The MSO3014A is appealing because I could ostensibly grow into it, should some project come up that demands its higher feature set. But if I’m being honest, I doubt I’ll ever really pay for the upgrade.

The DSO1204G is basically the minimum scope that suits my various hobby needs while also “feeing nice” in my opinion.

Totally open to other suggestions.

[TheSteve]

Maybe the date of the MSOX3014A was 2018, not 2008?

And nice scope, I don't think you'd ever be sorry you got it.