Products > Test Equipment
East Tester ET4410 ESR Measure
mawyatt:
--- Quote from: indman on July 26, 2022, 07:35:49 pm ---
--- Quote from: Martin72 on July 26, 2022, 07:30:04 pm ---So the conclusion could be that we can´t expect proper ESR/Q readings for every cap-type on the "cheapos" up to the costs of a TH/ST LCR...Hmm.
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In this case, non-TH/ST LCR devices cannot be considered full-fledged METERS, but should be transferred to the category of AMATEUR DISPLAY METERS with random readings. ;)
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That's totally ridiculous!!
Like saying that a HP34401, KS34465, DMM6500 are "AMATEUR DISPLAY METERS" because they can't read a waveform with very high peak to RMS values as well as the Keysight 3458A!!
These are instruments that must be used and understood properly rather than blindly applied, just like the high resolution DMMs mentioned ;)
Best,
indman:
--- Quote from: mawyatt on July 26, 2022, 07:47:46 pm ---That's totally ridiculous!!
Like saying that a HP34401, KS34465, DMM6500 are "AMATEUR DISPLAY METERS" because they can't read a waveform with very high peak to RMS values as well as the Keysight 3458A!!
;)
--- End quote ---
Not convincingly.
It is ridiculous, this is when the specification for the device specifies the range and the possibility of a full-fledged measurement of secondary parameters with a certain stability and reliability, but in fact this is not provided.
If this is stipulated in the documentation, as for HP34401, KS34465, DMM6500, then this is another matter ;)
The Electrician:
--- Quote from: mawyatt on July 26, 2022, 06:06:34 pm ---A few days ago we ordered some high "Q" film capacitors since we had none on hand, these were some Polystyrene, Molded Mica, Dipped Mica and few of the Polyproplyene and a film mixture. We had some Polyester or Mylar types already, and various ceramic types including NPO/COG.
To evaluate these high "Q" types we had just received we use the Hioki IM3536, Tonghui TH2830 and DER-EE DE-5000 LCR meters. Attached in the page from our notebook to browse thru, and all measurements were done at 100KHz within each meter's range.
The 1nF Polystrene has a very high Q of ~10,000 (D of 0.0001) and even caused the IM3536 to flicker into a Display Out of Range condition which occurs at D of 0.0001. Although the IM3536 remained reasonably stable with all the tests, the TH2830 was't quite as good with a bit more randomness and not reading as high a "Q" as the IM3536 (averaging was employed to help stabilizes the IM3536 & TH2830 meters, the DE-5000 doesn't have this option setting).
You can see the good correlation between all meters in capacitance readings everywhere, but no so well with the ESR and subsequently D and Q with high "Q" types. At the bottom are the Mylar and Polypropylene types and the meters agree reasonably well with these lower Q capacitors as has been previously mentioned.
Best,
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One of the things I like about the Hioki meters is their ability to display 4 parameters at once. Try setting yours to match how I did it in reply #20. Then choose the "set" mode, followed by "freq". This allows you to quickly switch frequencies and watch the effect on all those parameters. The polystyrene cap I used has its minimum D around 1 kHz; the Q is way over 10000, so the indication is "Disp out". The capacitance value has 6 stable digits, but ESR has only 1 stable digit--all the less significant digits are bobbling like crazy if the speed is set to "slow". This "bobbling" of the less significant digits is a clear indication that the reading is down in the noise because that is what bobbling digits are--noise.
The most stable and accurate readings can be obtained if the speed is set to "slow2", and the level is set to "5V". Also setting averaging to 256 helps a lot for accuracy. Without averaging, I get 1 stable digit for the ESR of the polystyrene capacitor, if I average for 256 times, I now have 3 stable digits, but their accuracy is still subject to the instrument specification.
So, Martin72, there's nothing wrong with your meters, you just have to know what it means that for some parameters like ESR, when the less significant digits are bobbling. Those digits are simply measuring noise; the meter has been asked to make a measurement near its capability limit. It's too bad the meter isn't smart enough to always know when to not show noise digits. Your East Tester tries--only showing 2 digits for the ESR is its attempt to not mislead the user into thinking the result is better than it is.
Martin72:
Hi,
I understand this, you, mawyatt, TimFox and other help to make clear the priniciples behind, now I KNOW it´s not a failure or somekind of mystic behaviour.
The conclusions are, that you could use the mentioned "cheaper" meters here well for all purposes, but you should have in mind that they couldn´t measure all possible cases, in this case caps with high Q, their ESR.
Even more expensive one can´t do that proper, it needs "more"..
To say oh if they can´t do it in every case, they shouldn´t do this in general is not OK.
The Electrician:
--- Quote from: indman on July 26, 2022, 08:04:11 pm ---
--- Quote from: mawyatt on July 26, 2022, 07:47:46 pm ---That's totally ridiculous!!
Like saying that a HP34401, KS34465, DMM6500 are "AMATEUR DISPLAY METERS" because they can't read a waveform with very high peak to RMS values as well as the Keysight 3458A!!
;)
--- End quote ---
Not convincingly.
It is ridiculous, this is when the specification for the device specifies the range and the possibility of a full-fledged measurement of secondary parameters with a certain stability and reliability, but in fact this is not provided.
If this is stipulated in the documentation, as for HP34401, KS34465, DMM6500, then this is another matter ;)
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The manual that came with my DE5000 does not do a good job of specifying accuracy under all conditions. It does not provide an accuracy adjustment to deal with the effect of low loss on capacitor measurements. However, the manual for the IET labs version of the DE5000 does show that. Their manual is at: https://ietlabs.com/pdf/Manuals/DE_5000_im.pdf
Page 41 of that manual shows the adjustment. If that adjustment is taken into account, the behavior of the DE5000 is accounted for.
The low cost meters are not as well specified as the more expensive ones for sure, and that is a downvote against them. I wish all users of low cost LCR meters would read this thread and not fool themselves into thinking that just because their meter shows a lot of digits that all those digits are meaningful. |O
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