Author Topic: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread  (Read 229107 times)

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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1250 on: December 08, 2018, 12:30:18 am »
While this may make some sort of financial sense to you and UEI it made absolutely no sense to me as a customer as I dont want another prototype meter. I already have my kickstarter meter that I bought because of your involvement with it. I want my test meters to last and the switch and shim solution are at best a temporary fix. Problem is that you and UEI have decided to carry on with it and let your customers carry the risk of early failure.

We are confident the shim solution will not lead to "early failure".
 
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Online Terry01

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1251 on: December 08, 2018, 01:08:51 am »
On the rotary switch, I actually was thinking just tonight that it feels very similar to my U1273a. The U1273a is a tiny bit more snappy as it slips into whatever mode but very similar indeed.
Mines came from Welectron with the shim already installed so I don't know what it was like before. I don't mind the rotary switch at all so long as it stays as is. Time will tell.
It is possible to get it to stop in between modes but you have to really try and I doubt very much it would happen by accident in use.

That's just my opinion...
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Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1252 on: December 08, 2018, 05:24:28 am »
I was doing some thinking on how many 121GWs have been produced. Taken from Dave's video on the development history, UEI had 4000 PCBs manufactured. That would mean as 700 of these PCBs are still to be used, that approx of 3300 of these meters have been made and sold. Thats a pretty impressive sales figure for a unkown quality meter, in just a little under 12 months.

It also means as there are thousands of these meters now in the wild that UEI and EEVBlog now know the strengths and weaknesses of this meter. My question is to those that may want to comment, what needs to be refined or altered to bring this product up to the next step in its evolution?

Also if we were to condense all our concerns/praise expressed in this thread, what points would we agree on?
 

Offline ggchab

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1253 on: December 08, 2018, 10:30:39 am »
Already said, I think, but in a next version, red texts and symbols should use a lighter color. They would be more visible.

Even big brands do not always make the best colors choices (Ex.: HP Prime calculator : light blue symbol on white keys replaced by dark blue  :-+)
 
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Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1254 on: December 08, 2018, 09:41:34 pm »
While this may make some sort of financial sense to you and UEI it made absolutely no sense to me as a customer as I dont want another prototype meter. I already have my kickstarter meter that I bought because of your involvement with it. I want my test meters to last and the switch and shim solution are at best a temporary fix. Problem is that you and UEI have decided to carry on with it and let your customers carry the risk of early failure.

We are confident the shim solution will not lead to "early failure".

Thats all well and good but I would feel a lot more reassured if that confidence you have in the "shim solution" actually had a long warranty period supporting it!

Looking at the EEVBlog website I could not find and warranty/refund/return policy listed. Can you please provide a link to the warranty information for the meter or for anything that you sell from your eStore?

 
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1255 on: December 09, 2018, 12:01:42 am »
I hate to point this out (well, not really) but you seem to be making the assumption that the shim solution is less of an engineering decision than the original design.

Let me throw out this purely hypothetical (but not impossible) idea......

It is not inconceivable that the implementation of the shim might actually be a superior solution - something that we may only see after some years of use.

If you want to ask me how, I don't know and I could only speculate.  If I were able to identify a specific engineering case that supports such a scenario, then I think the designers that have been working with this stuff for years might also have been able to have a handle on such an idea.  As it is, I believe that expertise allowed them to come up with the shim as a viable and reliable solution.


Please ... get over this.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1256 on: December 09, 2018, 01:04:15 am »
I hate to point this out (well, not really) but you seem to be making the assumption that the shim solution is less of an engineering decision than the original design.

Let me throw out this purely hypothetical (but not impossible) idea......

It is not inconceivable that the implementation of the shim might actually be a superior solution - something that we may only see after some years of use.

If you want to ask me how, I don't know and I could only speculate.  If I were able to identify a specific engineering case that supports such a scenario, then I think the designers that have been working with this stuff for years might also have been able to have a handle on such an idea.  As it is, I believe that expertise allowed them to come up with the shim as a viable and reliable solution.


Please ... get over this.

Ah, its the feral horse back again, and continuously repeating himself with the EEVBlog fanboy mantra!

Now its my turn to repeat myself, have you bought a 121GW meter yet?

The answer is of course NO!!!

This being the case, and you having zero dollars invested in this meter, and having never had hands on experience with it makes you unqualified to comment. What interest do you have in a warranty for a meter you dont own? On what basis of fact are you qualified to pass any comment on this meter that applies to ownership and use of it?

I do however think that are qualified and have a PhD in opinion and BS, but beyond that you are nothing more than a very sad example of a serial pest!

Now back on topic, can anyone provide me with a link to Dave's EEVBlog's warranty/refund policy or let me know if one exists for the products sold on his eStore?
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 01:06:38 am by 1anX »
 

Online Brumby

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1257 on: December 09, 2018, 04:28:01 am »
I WON MY BET with myself!  In fact, I could have taken out a different bet with longer odds and won that, too!

You can't win on the facts of the situation and logical observation - so you have to attack me personally!  Keep going - you haven't insulted me enough to be worried.  I am actually holding it in quite well to stop breaking out in laughter.

But seeing you want to push a button, I'll not disappoint you (this time)..........

NOTHING I have stated is outside the realm of fair and reasonable observation.  I have even invited Dave to shoot me down if I've stepped outside any bounds - but he has offered nothing.  There also seems to be an absolute dearth of other members chiming in decrying my comment.

My interest in this meter is real.  My only constraint in not having purchased one is budgetary.  As part of this interest, I have been following all the threads.

The fact that you have not offered ONE SINGLE CHALLENGE against my arguments demonstrates you cannot and so you resort to attempt to discredit me to maintain your "superiority".  Sorry - but that is a clear marker of someone who lacks objectivity and (IMHO) has self-esteem issues.

SO - the question begs .... When I do get my hands on a 121GW - what will be your basis for dismissing my opinion?  The fact I won't had one for as long as you have?



It is clear you have never sent a product out into the wild.  I have - and so have quite a few others here.  My last such shipment was two units sent to Israel for testing and evaluation.  Even after weeks of my own testing and tweaking, once you send the package on its way, you wonder if you've addressed all the requirements to the customer's satisfaction.  All the communications indicate you have - but until they get the product in their hands and use it, you are always apprehensive.  You also still keep thinking about what can go wrong - of both the things you have thought about and of those you hadn't.  The only practical approach is to get it as right as you can and send it out - then prepare yourself for issues and to address them should they arise.  If you don't do this, then you will never get a product out into the market.

But you don't need to pay any attention to my little example - there are many members here that do much more of this sort of thing than I and they have stories about their experiences which show life isn't perfect.


One parting comment: I would like to point out that ownership is not a pre-requisite for having a valid opinion nor is it the only metric for having an investment in a product.  In fact, I could have purchased one and had it sitting on my desk, still unopened and posted the same comments.  So much for your eligibility criteria.


Please - do yourself a favour and let this go.  You aren't "winning" here in any sense of the word and you are just embarrassing yourself - more and more.


Edit: I know the "let this go" recommendation will fall upon deaf ears - but it still needs to be said ... again.
« Last Edit: December 09, 2018, 04:33:27 am by Brumby »
 

Offline fboehle

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1258 on: December 09, 2018, 08:12:35 am »
Warranty terms are specified in the manual. First pages...

While this may make some sort of financial sense to you and UEI it made absolutely no sense to me as a customer as I dont want another prototype meter. I already have my kickstarter meter that I bought because of your involvement with it. I want my test meters to last and the switch and shim solution are at best a temporary fix. Problem is that you and UEI have decided to carry on with it and let your customers carry the risk of early failure.

We are confident the shim solution will not lead to "early failure".

Thats all well and good but I would feel a lot more reassured if that confidence you have in the "shim solution" actually had a long warranty period supporting it!

Looking at the EEVBlog website I could not find and warranty/refund/return policy listed. Can you please provide a link to the warranty information for the meter or for anything that you sell from your eStore?

 
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Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1259 on: December 09, 2018, 08:21:03 pm »
Joe, I can see the wear grooves between the contacts but cannot see a split in the PCB. Where abouts should I be looking to see the split?
 

Offline CDaniel

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1260 on: December 09, 2018, 08:49:34 pm »
The split is the crack in the red plastic input terminal
Such a switch require tight tolerances , if the shim , pcb , and so on , are not as should be , it will worn very fast . That's why tests should be done . And David did a test .
 
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Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1261 on: December 09, 2018, 08:52:56 pm »
Warranty terms are specified in the manual. First pages...

Ok so EEVBlog does not provide a written warranty only a contact through sales for support. Therefore the "warranty" falls back to the Australian government consumer laws. https://www.accc.gov.au/consumers/consumer-rights-guarantees/repair-replace-refund

It would be nice to see a written warranty for 121GW meter, especially as there may be upto 4000 of them with the thin PCBs and shims to correct the selector switch fault that was picked up early after the meter's release.

The meter I have received also has the incorrect springs fitted in the battery box. The springs are too long and even though fully compressed still need to move sideways to enable battery insertion.

It would be nice to see a written warranty supporting EEVBlogs's confidence in this first run of 4000 meters.

I paid $341 for the meter which includes GST and delivery. Assuming EEVBlog have sold approx 3500 of them 3500 x $341 = $1,193,500! Congrats to EEVBlog!


 

Offline CDaniel

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1262 on: December 09, 2018, 09:25:37 pm »
Could you take a picture of the contacts , so we can see how worn they are ?
 

Offline darik

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1263 on: December 09, 2018, 10:05:28 pm »
I paid $341 for the meter which includes GST and delivery. Assuming EEVBlog have sold approx 3500 of them 3500 x $341 = $1,193,500! Congrats to EEVBlog!

Now you just have to subtract the costs of design, production, shipping and support.
 
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Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1264 on: December 09, 2018, 10:38:55 pm »
I paid $341 for the meter which includes GST and delivery. Assuming EEVBlog have sold approx 3500 of them 3500 x $341 = $1,193,500! Congrats to EEVBlog!

Now you just have to subtract the costs of design, production, shipping and support.

Never underestimate that one!   :-DD   A friend of mine was having some problems with a little electronic device he had bought.  He brought it over for me to have a look at.  It was an impressive bit of hardware and seemed to work like a champ.   I called the company that produced it and ended up talking with the designer who told me they no longer offer it.    I said why?  This is a great product.  It's small and light weight, very well made, lots of features and seems to be bullet proof.  Cost wasn't bad.   

I proceed to hear the story of how the people that bought them had problems with troubleshooting simple circuits and basic wiring.  Many had problems reading the manual and the device was always to blame.   Many were returned with no problems found and in the end they spent more money in time trying to support it than they were making from sales, so they pulled the plug on it.   
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Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1265 on: December 09, 2018, 10:57:41 pm »
I paid $341 for the meter which includes GST and delivery. Assuming EEVBlog have sold approx 3500 of them 3500 x $341 = $1,193,500! Congrats to EEVBlog!

Now you just have to subtract the costs of design, production, shipping and support.

Never underestimate that one!   :-DD   A friend of mine was having some problems with a little electronic device he had bought.  He brought it over for me to have a look at.  It was an impressive bit of hardware and seemed to work like a champ.   I called the company that produced it and ended up talking with the designer who told me they no longer offer it.    I said why?  This is a great product.  It's small and light weight, very well made, lots of features and seems to be bullet proof.  Cost wasn't bad.   

I proceed to hear the story of how the people that bought them had problems with troubleshooting simple circuits and basic wiring.  Many had problems reading the manual and the device was always to blame.   Many were returned with no problems found and in the end they spent more money in time trying to support it than they were making from sales, so they pulled the plug on it.

Yeah, I didn't say the $1,193,500 was all profit, but it is a considerable achievement for dollars generated through their sales  :-+

I guess EEVBlog is no longer just a blog and its now an established retail eSales outlet.

Glad that the warranty page exits and was pointed out to me as being in the manual. I spent a bit of time searching the EEVBlog website and could not find any reference to warranty or support. Maybe I missed that as well?

I see UEI offer a 2 year warranty and Fluke 10 years on some of their meters. The Brymen BM867s have a 3 year warranty label on their box and the EEVBlog 121GW offer 12 months. Fingers crossed we wont be needing to use it and that when we do there will be a Support tab menu item on the EEVBlog website. Its just one of those necessary things that retailers need to have available.
 

Offline lowimpedance

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1266 on: December 09, 2018, 11:15:00 pm »
@Joe
 Your PCB does show some metallic contamination between the switch traces, possibly a combo of the dimple wear and pickup off the PCB gold trace.
Inspection of mine did not appear to have the same 'inter-pad' debris.
 My contact dimples have started to wear, but have not been subjected to anything like the same rotation number that yours have.
I have re posted a pic (that was posted in the firmware thread) as its the most appropriate thread for reference than the other thread.
Also I include the cotton swab with the 'black' stuff cleaned off the PCB.
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Online Terry01

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1267 on: December 09, 2018, 11:34:59 pm »
I paid $341 for the meter which includes GST and delivery. Assuming EEVBlog have sold approx 3500 of them 3500 x $341 = $1,193,500! Congrats to EEVBlog!

Now you just have to subtract the costs of design, production, shipping and support.

Never underestimate that one!   :-DD   A friend of mine was having some problems with a little electronic device he had bought.  He brought it over for me to have a look at.  It was an impressive bit of hardware and seemed to work like a champ.   I called the company that produced it and ended up talking with the designer who told me they no longer offer it.    I said why?  This is a great product.  It's small and light weight, very well made, lots of features and seems to be bullet proof.  Cost wasn't bad.   

I proceed to hear the story of how the people that bought them had problems with troubleshooting simple circuits and basic wiring.  Many had problems reading the manual and the device was always to blame.   Many were returned with no problems found and in the end they spent more money in time trying to support it than they were making from sales, so they pulled the plug on it.

So you had a friend who bought this great little product that that was very well made with loads of features and was bullet proof and worked like a champ but the people who bought it couldn't wire simple circuits or do basic wiring and many couldn't read the manual and blamed the device but the device had no problems and was great so the company pulled the plug? 

Really?  :-DD
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Online Brumby

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1268 on: December 09, 2018, 11:44:53 pm »
So you had a friend who bought this great little product that that was very well made with loads of features and was bullet proof and worked like a champ but the people who bought it couldn't wire simple circuits or do basic wiring and many couldn't read the manual and blamed the device but the device had no problems and was great so the company pulled the plug? 

Really?  :-DD

If marketed to the wrong demographic, I could see that happening - though that does reflect badly on the marketing strategy.  Perhaps they aimed too wide and the less technically inclined were the greatest uptake.

It is a strange world - and no matter how good a product may be, if the cost of the business is greater than the revenue, then the only sensible option is to close up shop.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1269 on: December 10, 2018, 12:19:25 am »
So you had a friend who bought this great little product that that was very well made with loads of features and was bullet proof and worked like a champ but the people who bought it couldn't wire simple circuits or do basic wiring and many couldn't read the manual and blamed the device but the device had no problems and was great so the company pulled the plug? 

Really?  :-DD

If marketed to the wrong demographic, I could see that happening - though that does reflect badly on the marketing strategy.  Perhaps they aimed too wide and the less technically inclined were the greatest uptake.

It is a strange world - and no matter how good a product may be, if the cost of the business is greater than the revenue, then the only sensible option is to close up shop.

The problem in that case is that many of the end users who bought it just didn't have a technical background.  They wanted what the device had to offer and could see other people using it successfully.  The company sold a fair number of them but they never considered the amount of resources it would require to support it.   
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Offline EEVblog

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1270 on: December 10, 2018, 12:39:45 am »
The troll speaks.    Yes, and it shows you can actually read.  I'm impressed.

Please stop the squabbling here, all of you.
 
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Offline GeoffreyF

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1271 on: December 10, 2018, 12:39:53 am »
YES!  Really!  I have worked in hardware product companies.   Support is a huge cost. In fact, if you want to assure nobody makes a dime selling you something, call them with your issues.   It REALLY happens all the time that products are cancelled for the support costs.  Evidently this comes as a shock to some but people who manufacture stuff are in it for the money. 

Do you really think someone with the basic skills and knowledge to answer your questions doesn't expect a decent wage?  REALLY?
US Amateur Extra W1GCF.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1272 on: December 10, 2018, 02:00:43 am »
Zoomed in view of a member's meter.  Notice the wear around the lip of the hole.  With the thinner PCB, I would not have expected there to be any wear in this area.   Actually, with the shim installed  I wouldn't expect the locking tabs to come in contact with the surface of the PCB.  I would expect them to be sitting much higher.   I am sure I am missing something.     
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Online Brumby

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1273 on: December 10, 2018, 02:18:42 am »
Notice the wear around the lip of the hole.

I also noticed that this wear is only in that area.  There is no sign of anything that severe at other points.

I'm wondering if it's something as simple as a high point in the switch - perhaps from the molding process.  If so, it could be just a matter of wearing down until it no longer is in contact.

Just a thought - as I don't have a meter I can check.
 

Offline joeqsmith

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Re: EEVBlog 121GW Discussion thread
« Reply #1274 on: December 10, 2018, 02:32:26 am »
I assume the switch assembly does not run true (on a light slant) causing it to wear on the one side.   That shim is pretty thick and should have moved these locking fingers far off the board even if it isn't true.   Would have really liked to have seen more data on Dave's life cycle test.  Looks like he made an edited version available. From this we can see he ran the single dimple contacts.   I assume these are the later design after the kickstart.  There is a fair bit of wear around the hole but it is on the switch side rather than the locking tab side.  This is what I would expect.  Also, it does seem to be placing a fair bit of pressure on the switch assembly or we would not see this sort of wear.  It enforces my thought that the switch assembly is very close to the circlip already and the PCB thinkness may not play such a big role.

https://youtu.be/QSmiMlWEpy0?t=333
« Last Edit: December 10, 2018, 02:44:57 am by joeqsmith »
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