Author Topic: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues  (Read 195395 times)

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Offline GeoffreyF

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #775 on: December 16, 2018, 09:05:54 pm »
GeoffreyF , 121GW is very slow in comparison with cheap or expensive multimeters , so stop being a fanboy troll . This firmware program should be scrapped completely and start from scratch with speed efficiency in mind . With a PIC family microcontroller a long time ago many , many users could have done a better firmware .

So you can't make any real point and you call me a fan boy troll?  You discredited yourself completely.   Did I say I was a "fan"?  No.  I own one. I own others.   Troll?  I am not one of these people who never gets tired of repeating the same point again and again, completely unproductively.   As for "Scrapped completely" (as opposed to correcting bugs).  It is equally obvious you never really worked on production code. 

This is an Engineering blog - that means numbers, facts, comparisons - not rude school boy remarks.

Yes , sure I'm discredited not you for implying that 121GW slowness has something to do with price ... Fanboys allways find excuses for any issues .
I don't think this firmware could be "corrected" that much . This is a core feature when designing a software to work efficiently . Not 3 lines of code that they couldn't change in 1 year or more ...
But I don't care how is done

It's about Electronics - NOT YOU.   You keep repeating yourself.  Adding nothing.  Who found excuses?  This is an engineering forum.   Act like you are in one.
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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #776 on: December 17, 2018, 12:12:17 am »
I think if the 121GW ever gets to the point where everybody is happy (I'll set the bar at 95%), Dave could double the price.
 

Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #777 on: December 17, 2018, 02:25:18 am »
This may have been reported before, but I came across this video that shows the meter's strange behavior in Auto Hold. My meter is a kickstarter unit and was shipped to me with the switch shim installed. It is running V1.57 firmware and I have tested it on the same precision voltage source, (ebay) as shown in the video it performs exactly the same.

The meter seems overly sensitive and the readings jump around especially when removing the probe from the voltage source. Also has the problems shown with not always working when auto hold selected. Its just flaky behavior that keeps me guessing if I can rely on the readings and necessitates taking numerous readings to be sure it is as shown on the display. Anyone else found this behavior with their meter?

 
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Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #778 on: December 17, 2018, 11:00:27 am »
So pleased I haven't bothered trying to keep up with this thread since about page two or whenever I gave up in disgust initially. 10 months later and what a bunch repetitive whining :bullshit: from some armchair manufacturing and importing gods who know exactly how to fix all the problems by sooky keyboard power alone.

Apart from dropping a shim in mine, upgrading the firmware and learning to live within the much over discussed auto range time mine has proven faultless, accurate , reliable and still well within spec. It lives in my on site bag and gets hauled all over the place dropped into a bag of tools and generally treated as a workhorse.

If you want the perfect meter grow some balls and go get one made, show the world and make your fortune seems how it is so easy and you know all the fixes.
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Offline Simon

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #779 on: December 17, 2018, 11:40:44 am »
I had mine calibrated by work to use as a new reference in place of my fluke 179 (0.05% versus 0.09%), the results came back more bang on than the fluke by comparison. I am more than happy. 5 digits, astounding low voltage measurements that allow even lower current measurements. Why buy a bench meter when i have this.
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Also, if you want to get ripped off: https://www.ebay.co.uk/usr/simons_electronics?_trksid=p2047675.l2559
 
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Offline GeoffreyF

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #780 on: December 17, 2018, 01:26:56 pm »
Faster Settling time can be achieved by sacrificing accuracy.  Ultimately what the user is waiting for is a more accurate result.  Often I don't wait. The values I see are all within nominal and so I move on to another part of the circuit in my quest to find out why it is not working.  Often one expects a range of values in a particular circuit area.  By setting a range, settling time improves.  You are giving the meter a hint where to start averaging.  I suppose if someone is going through a big bag of parts trying to pick the perfect capacitor, long settling time would be frustrating.  Here I would also say that in building a circuit, a good engineer often designs for a range of possible values and not always an exact one.

Instruments have a job to do.  Ultimately that job is for the engineer or tech to do their job efficiently in time and money.  Not every instrument, even of the same type, is perfect for every situation.  Some are more rugged, some are less expensive - perhaps even approaching disposable. All have something they are not best at.  Some are more accurate or easier to use in some conditions.  The 121GW is a great meter for a lot of things, for the price it costs.  It's not the meter to end all meters. None of them are.
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Offline 1anX

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #781 on: December 17, 2018, 08:22:58 pm »
There is one other issue with my meter that occurs from time to time and that is with the Rel button operation. I have had the Rel button refuse to function when pressed and it requires turning the meter off and on to reset the function back into operation.

Anyone else experienced this when using Rel?

Note: All those above comments about the whining on this thread should be removed and re-posted to the Discussion thread!

This thread is for reporting on issues that are effecting the meter, so may appear as whining to the thin skinned crowd of proud owners. Reporting issues may seem negative, but without this feedback the meter will never reach its potential.
 

Offline newbrain

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #782 on: December 17, 2018, 09:16:34 pm »
This may have been reported before, but I came across this video that shows the meter's strange behavior in Auto Hold. My meter is a kickstarter unit and was shipped to me with the switch shim installed. It is running V1.57 firmware and I have tested it on the same precision voltage source, (ebay) as shown in the video it performs exactly the same.

The meter seems overly sensitive and the readings jump around especially when removing the probe from the voltage source. Also has the problems shown with not always working when auto hold selected. Its just flaky behavior that keeps me guessing if I can rely on the readings and necessitates taking numerous readings to be sure it is as shown on the display. Anyone else found this behavior with their meter?
Actually I tried following the video, but this person (apart from the confusion between uV, hundreds of uV and mV) has, for my tastes, a terrible way of exposing his thoughts.
I had serious problems in understanding what he was trying to convey in 20 minutes that could not have been said in 3.

That said, I tried my 121GW, (Johnny B. Goode kickstarter, FW 1.57, arrived pre-shimmed) with my PSU and:
  • Differences of 100 uV (not 1, as he says!) are picked up as expected in autohold.
  • I see no interference with the Rel function, same behaviour.
    Autohold will not always give the true reading.
    But, the actual reading - at the probes - will be used when pressing Rel, not the one on the display.
    Here, my Fluke 87V has a more natural behaviour: the displayed (held) reading is subtracted, and you can even alternate between the auto-held relative and regular readings by pressing Rel. :-+
  • As we know, autorange is disabled with Rel.
  • No strange spurious readings when removing or connecting the probes. Might that and shaky hands be the actual problem?
  • It is quite a bit slower than the Fluke.
  • EtA: My Rel button seems to be..Rel-iable.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2018, 10:04:27 pm by newbrain »
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Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #783 on: December 17, 2018, 09:46:26 pm »
There is one other issue with my meter that occurs from time to time and that is with the Rel button operation. I have had the Rel button refuse to function when pressed and it requires turning the meter off and on to reset the function back into operation.

Anyone else experienced this when using Rel?

Note: All those above comments about the whining on this thread should be removed and re-posted to the Discussion thread!

This thread is for reporting on issues that are effecting the meter, so may appear as whining to the thin skinned crowd of proud owners. Reporting issues may seem negative, but without this feedback the meter will never reach its potential.

In the past few pages you have tried to tell the owner of the contract made meter how it should be built by the manufacturer and to what standards and with what parts, consumer protection and warranty requirements under Australian law. All you have demonstrated is you know nothing much about any of those things. And now you want my comment shifted because reasons...... :-DD

Trawling the minutia of details for the 1000'th time and the backlots of youtube and repeating it twisting it to suit calling others trolls is not reporting faults at all it's called shit stirring in this country!
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Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #784 on: December 17, 2018, 10:59:04 pm »
In case you think my comments on your 'issues' unfair you had made nearly 40 posts prior to getting a meter including this gem where you had prejudged it 'poorly executed' without having ever touched it and taken a cheap shot at Dave for good measure.

A one sentence summary would be that the 121GW meter was a good idea poorly implemented!

Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but maybe if Dave ponied up and backed his own idea and design instead of a freebie UEi deal, it may have actually been developed and tested before being released to backers to buy?

The potential for getting a useful meter, (I'm Johnny Be Goode backer) is still high, but the way it has been handled with bugs and switch problems has certainly knocked the gloss of acquiring this meter for me!

Since then nearly 50 more posts with the bulk of them negative to the meter or other contributors in the couple of threads. 'Dog with a Bone' would be understating your content because even they loose interest in a bone after gnawing on it for a long while. Go buy some more test gear and broaden your negativity base!
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Offline GeoffreyF

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #785 on: December 17, 2018, 11:04:20 pm »
This thread is for reporting on issues that are effecting the meter, so may appear as whining to the thin skinned crowd of proud owners. Reporting issues may seem negative, but without this feedback the meter will never reach its potential.

However, you never really reported an issue.  This is an engineering blog.  A real issue has a context in actual engineering work for which this instrument is made. Lack of objectivity, lack of repeatable cases, lack of numerical characterization are the opposite of engineering and issues.  Calling folks "Thin Skinned" is a subjective attempt at skipping actual raising of issues!  Do you actually think that will gain you respect for your redundant repetition?  Quite the opposite.
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Offline DavidDLC

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #786 on: December 20, 2018, 06:24:23 pm »
I think if the 121GW ever gets to the point where everybody is happy (I'll set the bar at 95%), Dave could double the price.

Really ? How can you be suggesting that.


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Offline Brumby

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #787 on: December 20, 2018, 10:50:53 pm »
It was tongue-in-cheek ... a reflection on the impossible task of making everybody happy.  (I'm sure a few people worked that out.)
 

Offline GeoffreyF

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #788 on: December 20, 2018, 10:56:53 pm »
I think some folks don't understand that it's an instrument, a tool, a bunch of functions that presumably you needed and that's why you bought it.  If happiness is a goal -go fix, debug or develop something.  Better yet, send your client the bill.  If the 121GW played a role in that then it's worth it.

Some folks just don't know where to stick their probes.
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Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #789 on: December 20, 2018, 11:49:56 pm »
In my dozen+ meters none are perfect for all tasks and all of them have quirks be they mechanical, firmware, electronic or in software interfaces. Am I unhappy I got any of them well no they each fill a function in what I do with them (a couple are just because I could ;) ). The very few that didn't or became redundant I have given them away to friends who didn't have a meter at all.

In the case of the 121GW I would most likely be over Brumby's 95% satisfaction point because I know of this meters few weaknesses but for day to day accuracy form factor, toughness and reliable function it is fit for purpose and performs better than specified. Am I a fanboy well NO I am just a fairly happy user of the product along with the other meters I own.

Doesn't mean the other 5% are not important either but some issues of the currently released meters can not be improved beyond firmware and minor hardware adjustments such as we have already seen take place. So while those issues vary from the 'end of the world' to a small minority to 'annoying quirk' to some to 'oh well I will just live with it' because nothing can be done by me the meter still works and does its job well.
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Offline CDaniel

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #790 on: December 23, 2018, 09:41:14 am »
Autorange slowness in all modes ( voltage , resistance , capacitance ... ) makes it pretty useless for any professional use ... This is not a small bug like others .
Could be enough for beginners ( first meter ) ,  occasional users , fanboys and people who bought it like a toy because they have too many meters . No offence .
 
Reporting issues is not whining because we can't afford or own something "expensive" like a Fluke  |O   

Just try to work on something when you have to wait about 1sec ( an eternity compared with other multimeters )  to switch the ranges up and down , maybe with some fast changing voltage . Annoying is not enough to describe the feeling ... when you have fast meters to compare . Could have 1000 extra features , if the simple ones are not implemented right.

Of course I hope they will resolve all the issues , it is for their own good , this meter can become a Fluke "killer" if they want . 





« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 09:44:42 am by CDaniel »
 

Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #791 on: December 23, 2018, 10:23:32 am »
Autorange slowness in all modes ( voltage , resistance , capacitance ... ) makes it pretty useless for any professional use ... This is not a small bug like others .
Could be enough for beginners ( first meter ) ,  occasional users , fanboys and people who bought it like a toy because they have too many meters . No offence .
 
Reporting issues is not whining because we can't afford or own something "expensive" like a Fluke  |O   

Just try to work on something when you have to wait about 1sec ( an eternity compared with other multimeters )  to switch the ranges up and down , maybe with some fast changing voltage . Annoying is not enough to describe the feeling ... when you have fast meters to compare . Could have 1000 extra features , if the simple ones are not implemented right.

Of course I hope they will resolve all the issues , it is for their own good , this meter can become a Fluke "killer" if they want .

I am offended when you or others decide anyone who is fairly happy with the meter is a 'fanboy'. This meter is my primary professional onsite meter and fulfills that role very accurately and consistently it is certainly not a toy! Clearly we have very different ideas of what is needed and your ideas make you no more a hateboy than I am a fanboy. I have from day one talked about the few issues I had found if you head back to January in these threads you will find that. Grow UP and drop the tags.

Clearly you have missed the point that the multimeter chipset in use is one of the limiting factors with the Auto Range speed and that won't magically change by bringing it up once again  :palm:  there is clear limits as to what can be done in firmware.

Circuit redesign including possibly different chipsets is not an 'issue' and I very much doubt it would be done in public by the masses as it just won't work. Dave has mentioned this in videos before over another project. If you want to re engineer it go do it sell a mod board, rewrite the firmware for the 'new' light speed chipset, make sure it wont go bang.... We await your design if you go down that path.

Repeatably 'reporting' again the same issues is whining in my book so I guess we will just have to differ. The Auto range was known in January so repeating it AGAIN in what must be for the multiple hundredth time in your post is  :horse: Or are you hoping to reach the 1% of the members here who aren't already aware of it?

Perhaps you should broaden your scope too instead of the 90% of your posts you have made about this meter you might discover something better until you find that 'better meter' too has flaws or short comings including Flukes. :palm:
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Offline CDaniel

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #792 on: December 23, 2018, 10:52:01 am »
What chipsets ? How do you know it is hardware ? HY3131 is faster in other multimeters , and if a 32MHz 32bit ARM micro is not fast enough for a multimeter than what "rocket" should be used ?
 

Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #793 on: December 23, 2018, 11:04:13 am »
Best left for Dave to answer as I am not privy to the firmware or feel I have a need to even see it. But a quick check revealed from the changelog

1.04 Resistance auto-ranging speed improved.
1.05 Further improved auto-ranging speed.

There may be more after that but I can't be bothered looking even after a couple of goes at it you would think the firmware had been tweaked within as close as it could be. And mentioning it AGAIN won't add anything else to what Dave or UEI already know. If you have a new code then start a thread and show it to us.

Unless you know of a secret electronic ingredient Firmware and Hardware are the two I know about so that leaves one being Hardware. And so again you miss the point of 'reporting' issues the alternative is to redesign the board and or change chipsets neither of these are 'issues' so start a redesign thread and I will enjoy reading it  :popcorn:
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Offline CDaniel

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #794 on: December 23, 2018, 11:23:35 am »
They did something in resistance mode autorange which was the slowest , but not enough . So there is hope that further improvement is possible with some skill , will and money .
 

Offline chronos42

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #795 on: December 23, 2018, 11:31:14 am »
What chipsets ? How do you know it is hardware ? HY3131 is faster in other multimeters , and if a 32MHz 32bit ARM micro is not fast enough for a multimeter than what "rocket" should be used ?

That is the point! The 121GW has the most powerful processor in its class but is as slow as a 20 Euro multimeter with autoranging.
Yes, it is a "Dave meter", it has some unique features. But meanwhile I am tired to read the fanboy gossip again and again from some members.
The 121GW is all in all a meter like all others on the market. Its downsides and quirks has to be mentioned in the same way like for all  other meters too, like Dave do it whith other brands. There is nothing wrong with pointing out the quirks of the 121GW, only fanboys have a problem with this.
 

Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #796 on: December 23, 2018, 11:47:15 am »

 There is nothing wrong with pointing out the quirks of the 121GW, only fanboys have a problem with this.

When it was known 11 months ago repeating it yet AGAIN serves what purpose apart from you knowing you are 'keeping up the fight'? Bring a solution to it instead of repeating what is known.

As you clearly don't know what a fanboy is and as English may not be your first language here is a link https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Fanboy I would welcome you to point out where I have not been 'objective' about the 121GW or fall into other parts of the general definition? Trying to use it as a put down to those with a more reasonable and balanced view is what I would expect in the schoolyard not an engineering forum.

Clearly I am a Fanboy Jan 10th https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/eevblog-121gw-multimeter-issues/msg1396270/#msg1396270
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 12:13:17 pm by beanflying »
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Offline chronos42

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #797 on: December 23, 2018, 12:13:50 pm »
Hi,

You are a very good examble how not to discuss technical issues....

And by the way: The 121GW is not my design, neither the hardware nor the firmware. So I (and others) only can point out some issues, but not solve it.
But we also can solve it this way: Close the three 121GW related subjects, no discussion, no problems. Better now?
« Last Edit: December 23, 2018, 12:22:01 pm by chronos42 »
 
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Online beanflying

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #798 on: December 23, 2018, 12:31:14 pm »
So repeated pointing out some issues again and again and again is discussing 'technical issues' :-DD

You have not offered any 'solutions' (very different to discussions) as far as I can see to any of the life ending issues you clearly have with the meter but show me if you have I would be interested to read these technical remedies you have offered?
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Offline chronos42

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Re: EEVblog 121GW Multimeter Issues
« Reply #799 on: December 23, 2018, 12:46:28 pm »
Hi,

Where did I repeat pointing out the same issue again and again?
What did you not understand in this sentence: "The 121GW is not my design, neither the hardware nor the firmware. So I (and others) only can point out some issues, but not solve it."
 


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