Products > Test Equipment
Equipment Life Expentancy
jpb:
I'm not sure if this should be in general chat or under test equipment.
I'm in the process of setting up my lab at home and keep getting faced with the choice between new cheap equipment (e.g. Rigol, Sigilent etc) and older high quality equipment.
For example, my scope is a LeCroy WaveJet 334 which new is still sold for nearly £5k in some places and I got it as old stock (never sold) for £1.5k BUT it is nearly 7 years old (built September 2006). I think it was a bargain but perhaps if it packs up in 2 years time I'll be less happy.
I'm now looking to get a signal/function generator and have the opportunity to buy a Tabor model which is probably about 6 or 7 years old (again old stock) but at around 35% of list (1 year warranty). Agilent ebay store is selling a nice one for around 55% of list but it is 3 years old and only has 7 days warranty. Similarly there is the option for ex-demo TTi with a years warranty. Alternatively there are new Rigol/Sigilent.
People seem to have fully functioning equipment that is decades old but on the other hand capacitors seem to have a limited lifetime (5 to 10 years?) even if the equipment hasn't been used.
It would be really useful to know what people's experience has been as to how well good equipment lasts. Manufacturers seem to have 3 to 5 year warranties on new which implies that they should be trouble free for that sort of length of time at least.
Of course the other factor is that technology advances so that an instrument that was cutting edge 7 years ago is now of similar specification to more entry level models but the manufacturers don't tend to drop the new prices in line. Thus the new prices are rather inflated and 35% of new list might be nearer to 60% of what new models actually sell for (the street price).
Fsck:
I have a Keithley 220 that's like as old as my parents and a Fluke 8842a that's almost as old as I am.
Some things last forever (relatively speaking) if well maintained.
If it's only 5-8 years old, high-end tech isn't really too old and will often beat the pants off new scopes where (used price)=(MSRP), except for possibly certain factors like sample rate, memory, etc. Scopes and function generators are updated often, but some things like bench mm's and psus aren't. The hp 3458a was introduced eons ago and is still considered current AFAIK.
A lot of people/businesses still use analog scopes, which are ancient by today's standards but they may have all the functions that they need.
Wuerstchenhund:
--- Quote from: jpb on May 02, 2013, 08:35:13 am ---I'm not sure if this should be in general chat or under test equipment.
--- End quote ---
It's test equipment related so this is the right category.
--- Quote ---For example, my scope is a LeCroy WaveJet 334 which new is still sold for nearly £5k in some places
--- End quote ---
Yes, but that is not representative as they will hardly find any buyers at that price. The WaveJet 300 has been replaced by the 300A several years ago.
--- Quote ---and I got it as old stock (never sold) for £1.5k BUT it is nearly 7 years old (built September 2006). I think it was a bargain but perhaps if it packs up in 2 years time I'll be less happy.
--- End quote ---
It's a great scope, but I think £1500 is already borderline for such an old model which also lacks all the advanced analysis capabilities the larger LeCroy models support.
And asking £5k for it is simply insane, that's very close to what these scopes did cost when they were new.
--- Quote ---People seem to have fully functioning equipment that is decades old but on the other hand capacitors seem to have a limited lifetime (5 to 10 years?) even if the equipment hasn't been used.
--- End quote ---
Yes, but the thing is that for older test equipment you get schematics and parts lists, and because they lack the very high integration od modern kit they are usually much easier to fix. Caps for example are generally easy (and cheap) to replace.
--- Quote ---It would be really useful to know what people's experience has been as to how well good equipment lasts. Manufacturers seem to have 3 to 5 year warranties on new which implies that they should be trouble free for that sort of length of time at least.
--- End quote ---
This is not easy to answer, as past experience is not necessarily representative for kit produced today. And even if a certain piece of equipment on average lasts 20 years, this does not mean that your's can't be a lemon that only lasts two days.
--- Quote ---Of course the other factor is that technology advances so that an instrument that was cutting edge 7 years ago is now of similar specification to more entry level models
--- End quote ---
That is not necessarily true. For example, the LeCroy Waverunner scope (a lower midrange scope, not even a high end model) I have and which was made in 2000 still has capabilities that you won't find in any entry level scope and even not in most midrange scopes.
The general performance of micrcontrollers, CPUs and other stuff has increased over the years but that does not mean that manufacturer don't use the advances to just give you roughly the same performance at lower costs for them. Entry level scopes are a good example, as they are mostly made for low costs than max performance. And it does bring out some really silly ideas like a scope where you can't switch off interpolation (Agilent DSOX2000/3000).
For example, I recently saw a video review of a Rigol DS4000 Series scope, where the Zoom functionality was demonstrated, and I was surprised how much slower this stuff is than on my 13 year old LeCroy. I've seen similar in many other areas.
Personally I would always buy an older 2nd hand device over a new entry level device, but that's just me.
jpb:
Thanks for the responses.
--- Quote from: Wuerstchenhund on May 02, 2013, 09:27:21 am ---
--- Quote ---and I got it as old stock (never sold) for £1.5k BUT it is nearly 7 years old (built September 2006). I think it was a bargain but perhaps if it packs up in 2 years time I'll be less happy.
--- End quote ---
It's a great scope, but I think £1500 is already borderline for such an old model which also lacks all the advanced analysis capabilities the larger LeCroy models support.
And asking £5k for it is simply insane, that's very close to what these scopes did cost when they were new.
--- End quote ---
Yes, £5k is insane (that is the Mouser price for the 334A model which is identical apart from the rear USB port). But I felt £1.5k was still a good price as other 350MHz bandwidth scopes, even Rigol are all over £3k and even a set of 4 500MHz probes cost over £1k. Anyway I've got it now so may as well be pleased with it ;) but this does illustrate the conundrum of trying to assess a fair price to pay for older equipment.
I'm always amazed at the amount people are willing to bid for stuff on e-bay when there is no warranty and the history is unknown - my rule of thumb is around 35 to 40% of the new price whilst they often go for something closer to 55%. My daughter informs me that this is why I'm always outbid! :)
Wuerstchenhund:
--- Quote from: jpb on May 02, 2013, 10:22:40 am ---Yes, £5k is insane (that is the Mouser price for the 334A model which is identical apart from the rear USB port).
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure if someone really wanted a new 334A then he'd probably get a much more attractive price from LeCroy themselves, especially considering that this Series is in the process of being withdrawn (hopefully there will be a successor, either from LeCroy or Iwatsu, as otherwise the lower part of LeCroy's offerings would be Siglent-made only).
--- Quote ---But I felt £1.5k was still a good price as other 350MHz bandwidth scopes, even Rigol are all over £3k
--- End quote ---
It's certainly not a bad price. Personally I wouldn't have paid more than £1500 but this is mainly because these scopes are not the right scopes for me anyways, and I would only have bought it because of the price and as a second scope ;-)
--- Quote ---Anyway I've got it now so may as well be pleased with it ;)
--- End quote ---
I'm pretty sure you will. Iwatsu made a lot of really great and very durable stuff.
And at least you can switch off interpolation ;-)
--- Quote ---but this does illustrate the conundrum of trying to assess a fair price to pay for older equipment.
I'm always amazed at the amount people are willing to bid for stuff on e-bay when there is no warranty and the history is unknown - my rule of thumb is around 35 to 40% of the new price whilst they often go for something closer to 55%.
--- End quote ---
Yes, but that's the ebay effect (many people bid live and then often end up bidding way too much). The key is to have patience, look for auctions that end at times few people will spend time in front of the computer, and also look equivalent devices that are not in the main focus of potential buyers (anything that has 'HP', 'Agilent' or 'Tektronix' written on it usually attracts bidders like roadkill is attracting flies).
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