Author Topic: Equipment running Windoze?  (Read 22151 times)

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Online dr.diesel

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Equipment running Windoze?
« on: March 23, 2013, 02:29:36 pm »
I am considering the following two pieces:

Rigol DSA815-TG
Agilent Oscilloscope, 4-Channel, 200MHz, DSOX2024A

In a recent video Dave mentioned Agilent utilizing Windoze CE as the base OS, anyone know what the above are running?  Or what base OS is used by specific companies?

I can't in good conscience support/buy any product that supports m$.

Thanks
Andy

Update:

Response from Rigol: "None of our instruments use a Windows OS"   :-+
Response from Hameg: "None of our devices are based on Windows technology"   :-+
BK Precision Scopes:  Non Windows based.   :-+
Tektronix DPO/MSO/MDO4000, DPO/MSO3000, and DPO/MSO2000 all run embedded Linux   :-+
Agilent DSO6000s and DSO1000s series do not run any version of Windows.    :-+

Adding others as they come up:

Agilent TrueVolt 34461A 6.5digit bench multimeter: Windows CE
« Last Edit: June 22, 2013, 03:16:10 pm by dr.diesel »
 

Online AndyC_772

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #1 on: March 23, 2013, 02:54:18 pm »
Hm... fair comment, though you'll be talking yourself out of a lot of good kit. Maybe you could ease your conscience by using your new gear to help develop some piece of open source hardware?

You could go the other way - buy a used HP spectrum analyser, something like the 8594E, and a Rigol DS4024 scope. The HP certainly doesn't run Windows, and I don't believe the scope does either. There's certainly no MS sticker on the back.

Online BravoV

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #2 on: March 23, 2013, 02:58:21 pm »
Beware though, most new and especially "serious"measuring tools have their supporting applications run only in windoze.

Offline c4757p

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #3 on: March 23, 2013, 03:09:33 pm »
I can't in good conscience support/buy any product that supports m$.

The good thing about buying software is that you're only supporting one software company with questionable ethics, like MS. When you buy electronics, you're supporting all of China, Inc., which is a hell of a lot more unethical on average. I don't think a little bit of MS contamination makes a difference when you're buying electronic hardware.
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Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2013, 03:17:34 pm »
Rigol has a rather large booth at the Dayton Ham fest coming up soon in May, I plan to drill their sales guys on what equipment runs what, hopefully they have some knowledge on the base OS.

I've read through much of the supporting documentation on the Rigol, no mention of the OS.  However my bet is the Agilent does run CE, bummer...

The supporting software is a very valid concern.  In the past I've had good luck with Wine, but only on the instruments with serial output, which includes pieces with FTDI based USB, which is very well supported under Linux.

Thanks again

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #5 on: March 23, 2013, 03:19:46 pm »
The good thing about buying software is that you're only supporting one software company with questionable ethics, like MS. When you buy electronics, you're supporting all of China, Inc., which is a hell of a lot more unethical on average. I don't think a little bit of MS contamination makes a difference when you're buying electronic hardware.

Dang you, I hadn't thought of it that way...  Now I can't buy anything! 

Online BravoV

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #6 on: March 23, 2013, 03:23:16 pm »
Dang you, I hadn't thought of it that way...  Now I can't buy anything!

You can't even post this thread without violating your spirit there, since the computer/laptop/tablet you're using is made in China.  :-DD

Offline lewis

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #7 on: March 23, 2013, 03:26:45 pm »
The Agilent 2000 and 3000 series do indeed run Windows CE embedded, but it is nothing like the Windows we're all used to on our desktop computers, and the OS has never caused me problems and I would trust it not to do so.

I looked at getting a Tektronix MSO5000 series scope before opting for Agilent, and that runs Windows 7. As in the complete Windows 7 with a start menu and internet explorer and minesweeper and everything. The scope had a mini mATX PC inside with Intel Core i-something processor and removable 2.5" hard drive. It was pretty cool being able to surf the web on your scope, but the big thing that put me off it was the inclusion in the box of a CD with "Windows 7 Recovery Disk" loudly printed on the sleeve. Call me old fashioned, but if a £20000 scope needs it's OS recovering, ever, then I'll give it a miss.
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Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #8 on: March 23, 2013, 03:28:05 pm »
I can't in good conscience support/buy any product that supports m$.

Good idea. I guess you are also not buying anything from Apple, Google (including Android phones or using Google search), or most other companies which all are equally irresponsible and in some cases much worse than MS.

However, saying that you boycott MS while at the same time considering Rigol looks very much like hypocrysis.
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #9 on: March 23, 2013, 03:28:54 pm »
You can't even post this thread without violating your spirit there, since the computer/laptop/tablet you're using is made in China.  :-DD

Moving to Montanan, new life as a barren hermit.  :D

In all honesty, m$ has screwed me 100000000000x over what any device made in China has. 

Offline c4757p

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #10 on: March 23, 2013, 03:30:53 pm »
How has MS screwed you?


As an aside, any argument you make will always, always, always have more force if you don't use names like "m$" and "Windoze".
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Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #11 on: March 23, 2013, 03:31:10 pm »
However, saying that you boycott MS while at the same time considering Rigol looks very much like hypocrysis.

This is exactly my question and what I'm looking to avoid!

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #12 on: March 23, 2013, 03:32:13 pm »
I looked at getting a Tektronix MSO5000 series scope before opting for Agilent, and that runs Windows 7. As in the complete Windows 7 with a start menu and internet explorer and minesweeper and everything. The scope had a mini mATX PC inside with Intel Core i-something processor and removable 2.5" hard drive. It was pretty cool being able to surf the web on your scope, but the big thing that put me off it was the inclusion in the box of a CD with "Windows 7 Recovery Disk" loudly printed on the sleeve. Call me old fashioned, but if a £20000 scope needs it's OS recovering, ever, then I'll give it a miss.

Maybe you should have considered that the main reason why recovery disks are included are not because Windows needs to be reinstalled every 6 months (which was a silly myth even in Win95 days), but because these scopes contain hard drives or these days SSDs which do have a very finite life time, and it's a nice thing when a commodity part breaks down (which can replaced for cheap) that you don't need to call the scope manufacturer's support to reload the software (for a notable fee of course) because your only copy of the scope software was on the dead hard drive.
« Last Edit: March 23, 2013, 03:34:18 pm by Wuerstchenhund »
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #13 on: March 23, 2013, 03:34:23 pm »
How has MS screwed you?


As an aside, any argument you make will always, always, always have more force if you don't use names like "m$" and "Windoze".

I'm not looking to win any arguments, I just attempt to avoid any products associated as I can.

I will spent a noticeable amount more and go way out of my way to make this happen.

Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #14 on: March 23, 2013, 03:38:45 pm »
I'm not looking to win any arguments, I just attempt to avoid any products associated as I can.

I will spent a noticeable amount more and go way out of my way to make this happen.

Well, then, the good news is that you won't have to spend much money, as most of the cheap Chinese scopes aka Atten, Siglent and I guess even Rigol are MS free (aside that they often come with some Windows software).

It's when you want to get some quality stuff that you will have a very hard time avoiding any MS involvement.
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #15 on: March 23, 2013, 03:47:20 pm »
However, saying that you boycott MS while at the same time considering Rigol looks very much like hypocrysis.

Well, then, the good news is that you won't have to spend much money, as most of the cheap Chinese scopes aka Atten, Siglent and I guess even Rigol are MS free (aside that they often come with some Windows software).

Am I understanding correctly?  The first quote implies Rigol=MS, the second does not?

Offline chrome

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #16 on: March 23, 2013, 04:00:37 pm »
Anybody that uses m$ or windoze or crapple or whatever automatically invalidates anything they say about it.

To me it's the same as saying "open sores" instead of open source.
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #17 on: March 23, 2013, 04:06:58 pm »
Anybody that uses m$ or windoze or crapple or whatever automatically invalidates anything they say about it.

Super, but it doesn't have anything to do with what I'm asking.  There is no grey area to my question, I'm not trying or starting a debate on Microsoft, Linux, BSD or Apple.  I simply want to know which test equipment devices run MS and which ones don't.




Offline MacAttak

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #18 on: March 23, 2013, 04:19:58 pm »
Then you shouldn't have posted in the manner in which you did. (and then followed up by repeating the slurs)

It shows lack of maturity and seriousness, and frankly it speaks volumes about your willingness to accept any information given.
 

Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #19 on: March 23, 2013, 04:33:12 pm »
Then you shouldn't have posted in the manner in which you did. (and then followed up by repeating the slurs)

It shows lack of maturity and seriousness, and frankly it speaks volumes about your willingness to accept any information given.

Funny.  I've asked as straight forward question, you can read into what you will.  I'am happy/willing/appreciative to accept the information I've asked, you might do well to reread the OP, maturity has nothing to do with and isn't remotely relevant.

I will talk with Rigol in May and perhaps Agilent will be willing to comment via Email.

Thanks to all,

Offline c4757p

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #20 on: March 23, 2013, 05:12:25 pm »
It was pretty cool being able to surf the web on your scope, but the big thing that put me off it was the inclusion in the box of a CD with "Windows 7 Recovery Disk" loudly printed on the sleeve. Call me old fashioned, but if a £20000 scope needs it's OS recovering, ever, then I'll give it a miss.

The fewer materials I am provided that help me repair the device, the less I like it. Won't be under warranty forever. It's part of why I really, really prefer old equipment whenever it is sufficient for my needs. I don't care if I'll never need it, the fact that it's included makes me happy.
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Offline c4757p

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #21 on: March 23, 2013, 05:13:12 pm »
I'm not looking to win any arguments, I just attempt to avoid any products associated as I can.

If you truly have a reason to do this, surely you'd have a reason to want to tell other people about it?
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Online dr.diesel

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #22 on: March 23, 2013, 05:39:13 pm »
If you truly have a reason to do this, surely you'd have a reason to want to tell other people about it?

Fundamentally I don't disagree, but as you can see:

Then you shouldn't have posted in the manner in which you did. (and then followed up by repeating the slurs)

It shows lack of maturity and seriousness, and frankly it speaks volumes about your willingness to accept any information given.

Some are quite sensitive and start posting the above, which was completely unwarranted and unnecessary.

In brief and in a previous life, I worked in an environment with hundreds of Windows boxes that controlled a series of highly automated manufacturing machines.  In a zero downtime requirement the result wasn't pretty.

A long discussion could lead from this, probably resulting in the same outcome!  Anyhow these long years lead me from a 100% windows guy to a 100% Linux/Solar/VXworks guy.

Anyhow I'm now retired and choose my hardware after great study, life it good.


Offline Wuerstchenhund

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #23 on: March 23, 2013, 05:41:11 pm »
Am I understanding correctly?  The first quote implies Rigol=MS, the second does not?

No. I just said you don't have to spend much money to avoid MS.
 

Offline free_electron

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Re: Equipment running Windoze?
« Reply #24 on: March 23, 2013, 07:43:01 pm »
Does it matter what os is used ?

the OS in test equipment is only there to provide basic things like networking , file operations and the GUI. apart from that it stays out of the way.
you can't even open a shell on them

The 2xxx 3xxx and 4xxx run Windows CE. so does the 335xx series of function generators. so does many other an agilent instrument that has a full color lcd graphical interface with 320x240 or more...

The reason is simple : it allows the designers to quickly develop the UI code with standard tools like microsoft studio. they get networking / usb operations / etc thrown in for zero effort.
There is no need to worry about viruses and hacks and other crap as these things are NOT pc's. They are ARM based to begin with , the processor is an ASIC ( Spear600 ) of which zero info is available to the unwashed masses / script kiddies/ pfy hackers , and they are set up to run 1 and only one application. you can't run anything else on them. the roms are most likely statically compiled.

you can argue 'why not linux' and the answer is very simple. Too fragmented , no tools, no ports for xyz , no support.
Before you blow a fuse reading the above let me explain :

- too fragmented : there are hundreds if not thousands of builds of linux based OS... which one to pick ? ( remember we need not only the kernel , we want networking , file exchange, usb , display drivers etc .. drop and run...)
- no tools. : name me a ready out of the box environment like visual studio for linux: graphical ui builder , debugger ( remote debugger ! ) code wizards , that can also can cross compile to non-native cpu... ( develop on x86 , run on arm .. ). an environment that simply needs one to launch 'setup' and works. out of the box , without configging , mucking with link scripts , install scripts and other 'tripe' like eclipse and the other 'spit and duct-tape' requiring tools...
- no ports : remember this thing is running on an ASIC featuring an A9 core. Microsoft happens to support that one. yeah , linux too.. but you end up with the endless which flavor question ? and you wil have to spend an immeasurable amount of time tweaking and porting it and you will have to do all the work whenever a patch is required. use a prepackaged system and you do not have to spend time on that. your engineers can focus on the instrument and don't need to muck with the OS itself. that's what you pay MS for.
- no support : you are not depending on the goodwill of a bunch of goodhearted people trying to make it work. or relegated to forums where the question will end up in flamewars between vi-emacs and kde-gnome. you pick up the phone , call the paid support line and you WILL get an answer WITHIN a fixed amount of time.

remember : you work for a big-name outfit like Agilent who HAS the power to make microsoft dance... your time-to market is driven by time to develop. it only makes sense to use a prepackaged build that is supported by its maker and let's you focus on your part of the design ( the instrument ). you don't need to know how the os works or how to configure it. drop it on and run. if you pick up that phone and call the supplier you will get first class support. you will not have to disclose anything to the outside world and you will get a solution in time to release.

that is why you find windows CE in such machinery. because in the long run it is the cheapest solution. you as an instrument maker don't need to muck with anything. you develop your application and hardware , compile it and sell it. you never touch the OS. the OS is only there to make your life easier and provide things like netwrorking , remote operation , user interface etc. stuff everyone does these days and you don't want to spend a single dime on development.
Buy it. If there is a problem : yell at the supplier and demand a fix. Good luck yelling at the linux supplier ...

- who are you going to yell at ? the thousands of unconnected people spending their free time coding ?
- 'you got it for free', They don't care about your problem. Microsoft does , as their paycheck is depending on it..
-' you got the source' . I don't want the source , i want a fix !
- 'sorry we are on vim we don;t deal with emacs suckers' . OS abd devtools come from 1 source. no endless banter and fingerpointing...
- 'you got the wrong color scheme or desktop',
- 'don't be a noob everyone knows its grep-$ blah.blip >vim -u -t -e:50 -e -$option .....'. I am developing an application. i don't want to muck with the OS !
- ' and you MUST post back the fix.. because it is 'open sauce' .... yeah right. like i'm going to let the competition in on what i'm doing ...

that does not fly in the real world...
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