Author Topic: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019  (Read 3718 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline thm_w

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3663
  • Country: ca
  • Non-expert
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #25 on: December 17, 2019, 01:30:01 am »
I pay for hardware - no problems with that but pay someone to "UNLOCK" the hardware I have? Not likely.

It was already pointed out to you that the unlock is free.
Stop pressing "enter" key before you've finished a sentence, it makes people not want to read your posts even more.

MSO 5074
Hacked to 300 Mhz with all option with only a Pendrive

*450 MHz measured  :D
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 01:32:14 am by thm_w »
 

Offline PKTKS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1626
  • Country: br
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #26 on: December 17, 2019, 10:17:04 am »
It was already pointed out to you that the unlock is free.

Stop pressing "enter" key before you've finished a sentence, it makes people not want to read your posts even more.
Hz measured  :D


What you think is bad I actually use to organize my head.
It is never between sentences. You may try to group that as I do.

And I am aware of the so called hacks to "UNLOCK" ..

Thing is: You paid for the whole hardware?
You should not pay to "UNLOCK" it.  By no means.

Paid hardware should be functional 100%

each logical <enter> forms a distinct idea - organized
no way to change what I do for perhaps 5 decades..

Mileage vary - core forum principle
Paul

Help
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 10:44:41 am by PKTKS »
 

Offline GeorgeOfTheJungle

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • !
  • Posts: 2699
  • Country: tr
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #27 on: December 17, 2019, 10:37:47 am »
Thing is: You paid for the whole hardware?
You should not pay to "UNLOCK" it.  By no means.

Paid hardware should be functional 100%

I wholeheartedly disagree.
The further a society drifts from truth, the more it will hate those who speak it.
 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline PKTKS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1626
  • Country: br
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #28 on: December 17, 2019, 10:42:31 am »
Thing is: You paid for the whole hardware?
You should not pay to "UNLOCK" it.  By no means.

Paid hardware should be functional 100%

I wholeheartedly disagree.

And I can understand that.

After all it is just another business model...

But I am not willing to pay a locked hardware..
twice or more times

Paul
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13406
  • Country: 00
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2019, 11:00:36 am »
But I am not willing to pay a locked hardware..
twice or more times

Just relax. Chill. Nobody's asking you to pay anything.
 

Offline PKTKS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1626
  • Country: br
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2019, 12:02:32 pm »
But I am not willing to pay a locked hardware..
twice or more times

Just relax. Chill. Nobody's asking you to pay anything.

Quite the opposite ...

Actually after something around 3m of research
this month I received another one for my ever growing pile of bench stuff

Complete - no UNLOCK things - 100% working scope

But this "border line" where working hardware and bundled software meets
are getting harder and harder to fit a candidate list where you will not
regret 12m later wasted money

Otherwise we will buy "shells" like USB scopes where you can
upload (reflash) even third part firmware..

I really like this model rather the UNLOCK one
You buy a SHELL  and you  may have options to
selectable firmware including third part compatible ones
(think Hantek 6022 with sigrok - I use it just fine both ways)

Empty bit complete shell - better than UNLOCK gizmos IMHO

just my mind speaking
Paul

 

Offline nctnico

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 22820
  • Country: nl
    • NCT Developments
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2019, 12:13:17 pm »
Actually after something around 3m of research
this month I received another one for my ever growing pile of bench stuff

Complete - no UNLOCK things - 100% working scope
Now everyone is wondering what you bought... So which scope did you buy?
There are small lies, big lies and then there is what is on the screen of your oscilloscope.
 
The following users thanked this post: BillB

Offline BillB

  • Supporter
  • ****
  • Posts: 615
  • Country: us
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2019, 12:53:41 pm »
Otherwise we will buy "shells" like USB scopes where you can
upload (reflash) even third part firmware..

I really like this model rather the UNLOCK one
You buy a SHELL  and you  may have options to
selectable firmware including third part compatible ones
(think Hantek 6022 with sigrok - I use it just fine both ways)

Empty bit complete shell - better than UNLOCK gizmos IMHO

While this would be great, it's just not a profitable business model.  Across many markets in various product categories the "Product as a Service" model is becoming the norm.  The hardware is commodity and the software will be leased to you.  Business wants a continuous income stream, and since they can't force you to buy a new scope every year (even though they try their hardest, planned obsolescence will only be tolerated to a certain point) they can make you continuously pay to use it through licensing or recurring maintenance fees. 

Get used to it.
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13406
  • Country: 00
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2019, 01:28:50 pm »
But this "border line" where working hardware and bundled software meets
are getting harder and harder to fit a candidate list where you will not
regret 12m later wasted money

Why would you regret it later?

It works exactly the same on day 365 as it did on day 1. If day 1 was OK then why not day 365?
 

Offline PKTKS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1626
  • Country: br
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2019, 01:42:59 pm »
But this "border line" where working hardware and bundled software meets
are getting harder and harder to fit a candidate list where you will not
regret 12m later wasted money

Why would you regret it later?

It works exactly the same on day 365 as it did on day 1. If day 1 was OK then why not day 365?

Because...  in due time due the fast pace of changes..
You will buy a pretty better one for less.

Border line is getting tight - after over 3 months of research
to do a simple scope purchase I can tell you it was a headache
to decide which model would overdue and provide best cost benefit rates

This month I got one after such research..
I can tell you for sure chances I will regret the choice were minimized

Although at the expense of a considerable time in
 thinking considering and comparing choices

Paul


 

Offline PKTKS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1626
  • Country: br
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2019, 01:49:03 pm »
(..)
Business wants a continuous income stream, and since they can't force you to buy a new scope every year (even though they try their hardest, planned obsolescence will only be tolerated to a certain point) they can make you continuously pay to use it through licensing or recurring maintenance fees. 
Get used to it.

Nop. While having choices I rather prefer to consider all options
best bit for the bucks

In a ideal world people (aka small group of board) would live from rents and licenses.
The world I live has nothing related to ideal.

The paid firmware for empty shells make more sense (to <me>)
rather than paying for a complete dis-functional hardware crippled
by design with 25% of options ( although paid in full )

Like buying a car where the motor and wheels would be optional...
( CAR AS A SERVICE .. or rolling as a service...  :popcorn:)

My choice for latest bench gizmo was based on that simple idea
I am paying for hardware - 100% functional

Eventually I pay for a shell (Hantek 6022) and I can pay
for specialized firmware. It makes sense.

This border line is getting tricky
Paul
« Last Edit: December 17, 2019, 01:55:18 pm by PKTKS »
 

Online Fungus

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 13406
  • Country: 00
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2019, 01:54:46 pm »
Because...  in due time due the fast pace of changes..
You will buy a pretty better one for less.

But you had the value of using an oscilloscope for a year.

Just like shoes. They wear out and you have to buy more, that's a 100% loss!

We buy them because they add value to our life for some time.

 
The following users thanked this post: thm_w

Offline PKTKS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1626
  • Country: br
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2019, 01:58:00 pm »
But you had the value of using an oscilloscope for a year.

Just like shoes. They wear out and you have to buy more, that's a 100% loss!

We buy them because they add value to our life for some time.


Things here are far more complicated than that.
Prices you see in EBAY and ALI are easily triplicated

Twice the price the norm triple sometimes due to shipping
Taxes are just insanely high

So ... the considerations go far deep into the cost x time x income rate.
Not simple - I assure you - I have spent over 3m of headaches like this

Having to superimpose OVER COSTS on your purchase
goes just as an insane option

Paul
 

Offline BravoV

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 7368
  • Country: 00
  • +++ ATH1
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2019, 02:46:38 pm »
You just can not compare your situation and condition with the OP.

You live in Brazil, where T&M is hard to find, even used and expensive, imported stuffs are even worst, that probably made you ended up with Hantek scope.

To be honest, that brand is not very highly regarded among oscilloscope's brands.

"IF" you have choices like people living in developed country, and with many options in front of you, this will surely change your perspective.

The "OP" lives in Germany, presumably German, and also presumably the gap of "valuing" a 1K Euros is quite large (imo) compared to common Brazilian.

Imo, you just can't keep forcing your point of view, as its not universally applicable.
 
The following users thanked this post: Someone

Offline tv84

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2574
  • Country: pt
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2019, 02:54:14 pm »
BTW, where is the OP?  (I think there are a bunch of bots laying around that, from time to time, post the magical question: "what's the best scope option now that we are 7 days and 12 hours away from xmas?")
 

Offline PKTKS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1626
  • Country: br
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2019, 03:11:01 pm »
You just can not compare your situation and condition with the OP.

You live in Brazil, where T&M is hard to find, even used and expensive, imported stuffs are even worst, that probably made you ended up with Hantek scope.

True. Taxes are 60% + 20% +6% (all 3 required) plus $5 of extra costs
Minimum = almost 100% tax - may have insurance and shipping extras.

To be honest, that brand is not very highly regarded among oscilloscope's brands.

"IF" you have choices like people living in developed country, and with many options in front of you, this will surely change your perspective.

The "OP" lives in Germany, presumably German, and also presumably the gap of "valuing" a 1K Euros is quite large (imo) compared to common Brazilian.

Imo, you just can't keep forcing your point of view, as its not universally applicable.

And i did not. I just answered with proper relevant arguments
otherwise there is no way to understand.

And BTW the HANTEK is the best example I could see.
I do own 2 Hanteks aside some other stuff.
They do a pretty good job for the value.

However the consideration of  paying for a
FULL DIS_FUNCTIONAL HARDWARE (you pay 100% the hardware)
versus
100% FUNCTIONAL one.  (may be shell + firmware)(with alternatives)

is more than adequate and relevant

Just keep those 2 things in place:
- my reasons  with arguments
- external factors - like taxes and OVER COSTS

You see .. real-world issues just will not allow that
"RENT" or "AS SERVICE" or cloud .. monthly fees

Not when the thing - the issue -  is really hardware.
There are some folks trying to put all stuff into the "AS SERVICE"

like rents or monthly fees.. The real-world  (across borders) just
does not function that way - never will.

Such rent model is naive idealized  and localized vision
of owners or tenants - some boss with idealized desired income.

Just keep the 2 things in place - my arguments -and the points
hardware should be functional - simple as this
Paul
« Last Edit: December 18, 2019, 10:03:11 am by PKTKS »
 

Offline rsjsouza

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 5347
  • Country: us
  • Eternally curious
    • Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #41 on: December 18, 2019, 07:48:27 pm »
OP, did you check Rigol clearance bin? Sometimes they have a good deal here and there. 
https://www.rigol.eu/clearance/

However the consideration of  paying for a FULL DIS_FUNCTIONAL HARDWARE (you pay 100% the hardware)versus100% FUNCTIONAL one.  (may be shell + firmware)(with alternatives)
is more than adequate and relevant
I am not entirely sure I see your point. The non-tangible part of the product (software) is still responsible for 80-90% of the development effort and is as fundamental to the product as the hardware it runs - you can't dissociate the costs tied to each part. Also, a reputable manufacturer will spend extra time and efforts to develop the product to meet the maximum specifications before releasing it to the market, thus narrowing the difference between the top and the bottom models in terms of product development cycle. Unfortunately the current trend is to release alpha or beta quality products to the market and fix the issues with updates, especially with second or third Tier brands.

Your feeling that you are paying much more for extra hardware is not considering a significant part of its development cost. Sure, over time the software costs are amortized and hardware starts to become more significant. But that is where we enter the continuum of development efforts, either for new products or for new features (and bug fixes - why not?) to existing products.

Cheap microprocessors and FPGAs blurred the definition of how finished a product really is. Nowadays you can't say that you buy a product fully furnished with all capabilities from day one. The tangible part of a mainstream product is usually a quasi generic platform or is comprised of smaller reference designs (usually provided by the device manufacturers) that are tied together to create a product. Some areas of the T&M market are becoming mainstream (oscilloscopes, for example). Sure, the hardware can perform a lot more functions at a faster capacity, but it is far from being dysfunctional. If the software is well implemented, the hardware is fully functional for the capabilities/specs purchased by the buyer. As an example of old days, if you buy a used Tektronix TDS754 and flip a few resistors you convert it to a TDS784. Is the TDS754 a dysfunctional hardware?

Also, for a product you already purchased, the continuum also works in your benefit especially in high import tax places like Brasil. Internet is mostly void of borders; you can purchase an entry level model, pay taxes over it, and then purchase the extra options electronically with only transaction fees. I guarantee are much lower than the 100% paid crossing the border. 

(one aspect is that, if you go through the bureaucratic proceedings, the import taxes for test equipment in Brasil are much lower than the 60% of finished goods across the border - the issue is paying a broker to plow through the paperwork or do it yourself). 

You see .. real-world issues just will not allow that "RENT" or "AS SERVICE" or cloud .. monthly fees
Not when the thing - the issue -  is really hardware.There are some folks trying to put all stuff into the "AS SERVICE"
like rents or monthly fees.. The real-world  (across borders) justdoes not function that way - never will. 
Such rent model is naive idealized  and localized visionof owners or tenants - some boss with idealized desired income.
Just keep the 2 things in place - my arguments -and the pointshardware should be functional - simple as this 
I have a four year old oscilloscope that reached maturity (no more firmware updates from the manufacturer) and is a fine instrument without the problems that plagued its early days. That's it: no hidden features left to be discovered, no monthly payments or other upkeep costs, no need to verify compatibility with hardware upgrades, nothing. It is just a means to an end, which is the expected functionality of a tool. 
Vbe - vídeo blog eletrônico http://videos.vbeletronico.com

Oh, the "whys" of the datasheets... The information is there not to be an axiomatic truth, but instead each speck of data must be slowly inhaled while carefully performing a deep search inside oneself to find the true metaphysical sense...
 

Offline Kawakneurder

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: nl
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #42 on: December 19, 2019, 04:53:58 am »
Which in couple of months. will be obsoleted..

Why?

New hardware...

it is been harder even to mount PCs..

When you do have a proper hardware which will last
some CPU/Bus (PCI) generations... things change..

I wholeheartedly disagree. Even scopes from 30-40 years ago are perfectly usable now for analog stuff. For digital stuff, scopes 10 years ago are still very usable. Sure, newer models might be slicker, have a bigger screen etc, but I think it would be very unlikely that the scope you buy now is replaced to such an extent next year, that you'd consider it unusable.


Staying on topic though, I think I agree with most that the Rigol MSO5074 is the best bang for buck under $1000. If you go lower in price of course the venerable DS1054Z. Rigol just offers unmatched price/performance ratio that only Siglent seems to come close to. There's something to say about Siglent, I think it's mostly personal preference.
 

Offline PKTKS

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1626
  • Country: br
Re: Best budget(<=1000 eur) scope at the end of 2019
« Reply #43 on: December 19, 2019, 10:23:12 am »
(.)
I am not entirely sure I see your point. The non-tangible part of the product (software) is still responsible for 80-90% of the development effort and is as fundamental to the product as the hardware it runs - you can't dissociate the costs tied to each part.
(..)

Apart the support considerations (just to have background floor)..

My point is very simple - indeed as explained it took me 3months
of comparisons and research to "DECIDE" which model brand purchase.

The whole <point> summary is:
= Trends today of increasing cheaper FPGAs and hadrdware..
+ fast pace of new "releases"
= lead market products to force you buying a full hardware (paid in full)
- (negative) is that this hardware is being more and more LOCKED
- forcing you to pay OVER COSTS of "features" (although hardware paid in full)

Controversy purchase decision is that:
= you (STILL) can buy a fully functional hardware (no UNLOCK)
+ positive is YOU WILL NOT MESS WARRANTY using unlock hacks
+ positive NO OVER COSTS - hardware 100% functional (no unlock)

And 10y ago FPGAs were too expensive for this model
They are fast becoming cheaper and the software offers
each year a much improved feature and performance floor.

That lead the question (border line) which model suit
you day by day use - cost x benefit and how  fast deprecated
your purchase will be in dozen months.

It took me 3m to match my purchase requirements
Decision being UNLOCKED with no hacks 100% warranty
no over costs and lower price ..

But your requirements may be higher...
10 or 20 y ago hardware were most likely the decision factor
Today the firmware+options are too fuzzy to clear decision

Hope it clears the point of decision - it took me 3m of hassle and comparison
Paul
« Last Edit: December 19, 2019, 12:06:16 pm by PKTKS »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf