Failed firmware update on U1273A and Agilent's Response

[TimothySwieter]

Thank you guys for the continued support.  I'll update the thread when I learn more.  Today was a holiday in Hong Kong, so no communication with Agilent. 

All I want is to get my 11 month old meter working again with minimal cost and hassle.  I'll see about contacting a higher level person after I talk with the customer service rep one more time.  Hopefully this has a happy ending, I'm am optimist. 

[edavid]

I think that if you posted on the Agilent forums, you would get it straightened out pretty quickly.

http://www.home.agilent.com/owc_discussions/category.jspa?categoryID=29

[nanofrog]

Thank you guys for the continued support.  I'll update the thread when I learn more.  Today was a holiday in Hong Kong, so no communication with Agilent. 

All I want is to get my 11 month old meter working again with minimal cost and hassle.  I'll see about contacting a higher level person after I talk with the customer service rep one more time.  Hopefully this has a happy ending, I'm am optimist.

I suggested it before, but why not try contacting Customer Support in the US, since that's where you actually purchased the meter? 

[linux-works]

well, I guess when it comes to agilent:

"you go to take a measurement with the meter and firmware it has;
 not the firmware you might want or wish it to have in the future"

or, something like that (grin)

[TimothySwieter]

The latest. 

I talked again with my customer service rep.  She had the following to say:

Firstly, about the warranty, the 3 year warranty has to be ordered together when purchase the unit. The price will be different from what you see online. From your provided documents, we cannot see any warranty extension information. So the default warranty period for U1273A including all accessories only can enjoy 3 months replacement warranty.
 
Secondly, I’ve ask engineer about the repair possibility again. Unfortunately, still no per incident repair is available. If you insist to send it to Agilent for repair, we only can quote you the unit exchange price, which will be as high as a new one.
 
Lastly, just a gentle reminder, pls find the correct purchasing channel to buy Agilent products in future in case of any warranty dispute. Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The last point is in regards to I bought this from someone who received the meter and didn't need it.  It was new, unopened, and complete with documentation and I checked this out prior to my buying it.  So that right there may be the whole reason they are bulking and only claiming a "3 month warranty".  However, still the fact remains that the firmware update failed after owning a brand new Agilent product for 11 months.  I'm completely beside myself.  If I had put a large voltage through unit, sure, I understand I broke it.  Updating firmware that the firmware loader crashes, something completely out of my control, and I am pissed off.   

In the end here, I just want a working meter.  This is a personal tool for work and hobby, so I take great care of my stuff and can't afford to drop several hundred more dollars on a unit. 

My response to Agilent was firm and polite asking to speak with a manager and referencing this thread.  I'd like to be a fan of Agilent, I have an MSO-X 2024A that I bought direct from Agilent, and several probes and meter accessories.  I've enjoyed the use of all my tools and they haven't failed me until now.  I'd like to continue, but surely if I am to spend more money, it won't be on any more Agilent equipment.  This situation has been most frustrating. 

For those that have a U1273A, in your "Box Contents List", does it list the 3 year warranty?  On mine, under the heading of "Accessories Included:" it states "W4100A-3MW Warranty, 3mth for Included Accessories".  I don't have any other line items for warranty. 

I'll update when I hear more.  I may have to write some letters, but hopefully I can call or talk to someone before then.  I may also try to contact a USA rep that I bought the MSO from. 

[jpb]

In the UK you have at least a year of warranty by law but this can be extended to much longer period if the goods are shown to be of not merchantable quality - i.e. if some fault shows up even six years later but was there from the manufacture then the supplier must replace or repair. This doesn't help you sadly, but perhaps provides a modicum of comfort for the enormous mark-up we have to pay on stuff we buy in the UK.

The three month warranty is very strange - I think this is the warranty that Agilent give to replacement units so perhaps the person you bought the meter from received it as a replacement for an earlier damaged meter.

This thread has made me more wary of purchasing from the second-hand section of the Agilent store. There are a couple of instruments I want to get but they are not premium used but just used so don't even carry a three month warranty.

[TimothySwieter]

Thanks jpb.  I'd have to see what USA rules are, that is where I bought it and where I am a citizen of, but perhaps that is complicated by being an expat and living in Hong Kong.  However, I thought I read about global warranty somewhere, that could be me mixing up warranty reading.  This whole debacle has me really reading the fine print on products.

As for Agilent "used" equipment, I have bought from E-bay user Agilent Used, which is by Agilent and is Certiprime equipment.  This is where I picked up my MSO-X 2024A two years ago.  The price was a great deal and it was easy to work with Oliver and Agilent on the purchase.  http://www.ebay.com/usr/agilentused?_trksid=p2047675.l2559  I did lots of reading and checking on Certiprime then, and everything looked good.  My scope has worked just fine, no problems with day to day use and firmware updates, etc.  I recommend buying equipment like this if you are on a budget and can get a good deal.

But....I now temper my recommendation because of this failed firmware update bricks my product and I get a "throw it away" message.  I just sent Oliver an e-mail, hopefully he can help me in my case here.

[London Lad]

You are just wasting your time working your way up and down the foot of the ladder talking to people who will just back up their immediate subordinates.

See my post above. Write (not email) to the CEO of Agilent in the US.

[tsmith35]

This whole issue with Agilent's apparent avoidance of their warranty responsibility on a $400 "throwaway" multimeter makes the standard Fluke warranty especially appealing:

Limited Lifetime Warranty
Each Fluke 20*, 70*, 80*, 170 and 180 series DMM will be free from defects in material and workmanship for its lifetime. As used herein, "lifetime" is defined as seven years after Fluke discontinues manufacturing the product, but the warranty period shall be at least ten years from date of purchase. *(Lifetime Warranty applies to products manufactured after October 1996)

In what way is the warranty limited?
    It does not cover batteries or fuses.
    It does not cover abuse or usage outside of specifications.
    It does not cover normal wear and tear of mechanical parts.
    It covers the LCD for 10 years only (state-of-the-art for LCDs).
    It covers original user purchaser only.

I hope the folks at Agilent will step forward and honor their three year warranty. Hopefully, their failure to honor the warranty is simply a misunderstanding which will be soon corrected.

[c4757p]

Hopefully, their failure to honor the warranty is simply a misunderstanding which will be soon corrected.

Yes, "misunderstanding", where Agilent misunderstood the very concepts of customer service and reputation.

[BravoV]

Thread bookmarked for future reference, might be useful in the future when it it comes to people looking for Agilent dmm.

[dannyf]

Since model U1273A is throwaway product, no Per Incident repairs available.  Please purchase a new unit if not covered by warranty.
Due to Agilent cannot support component repair, I’m afraid you have to purchase a new one if it is faulty.

Did someone from Agilent really write that?

I find that hard to believe.

Sounds like someone is working very hard to make Agilent look bad.

[dannyf]

Firstly, about the warranty, the 3 year warranty has to be ordered together when purchase the unit. The price will be different from what you see online. From your provided documents, we cannot see any warranty extension information. So the default warranty period for U1273A including all accessories only can enjoy 3 months replacement warranty.
 
Secondly, I’ve ask engineer about the repair possibility again. Unfortunately, still no per incident repair is available. If you insist to send it to Agilent for repair, we only can quote you the unit exchange price, which will be as high as a new one.
 
Lastly, just a gentle reminder, pls find the correct purchasing channel to buy Agilent products in future in case of any warranty dispute. Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The above doesn't sound official correspondence with a customer. Heck, it doesn't even sound like proper English. It is possible that today's young people don't do well in writing but this is a little bit too much.

Unless someone can independently verify that it comes from Agilent, or you can produce a screen shot of the email trail showing that it came from Agilent, I think it is risky to think that it comes from Agilent.

If it is indeed from Agilent, I would take it to Agilent CEO or investor relations and go from there.

[MagicSmoker]

Wow... what a train wreck. I just read the whole thread and my sole response is

The terrible customer service from Agilent is enough to make me think twice about buying anything from them in the future, but the real is that the actually coded a bootloader for a $400 meter that can't recover from a botched firmware upload. That is only acceptable in the cheapest of microcontroller-based products AND which are not intended to be field-upgradeable; once you add the latter capability, the bootloader ought to do some basic checksum and minimum size tests of any new firmware at the very least. Better still would be to backup the old firmware to, e.g., external flash memory just in case the shiny new firmware has some undesirable "hidden features".

Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard must be rolling in their graves over what has become of their beloved HP instruments division...

[_Sin]

This whole issue with Agilent's apparent avoidance of their warranty responsibility on a $400 "throwaway" multimeter makes the standard Fluke warranty especially appealing:

...

In what way is the warranty limited?
    ...
    It covers original user purchaser only.

OP said they'd bought it 2nd hand, so Fluke's warranty wouldn't cover it either.

Agree that a firmware update bricking something followed by the company concerned telling anyone to buy a new one, is shitty though. Minimum response should be to fix/replace the unit and investigate the issue.

I suggest standard approach to dealing with any customer service person should apply - if you don't like the answer you're getting, ask someone else until you get an answer you *do* like. And these days kicking up a fuss in public (social media, etc.) doesn't hurt. Posting here was already a good move, I think.

[amyk]

but the real is that the actually coded a bootloader for a $400 meter that can't recover from a botched firmware upload. That is only acceptable in the cheapest of microcontroller-based products AND which are not intended to be field-upgradeable;

The funny thing is, I've played with a lot of these ultra-cheap stuff and they often do have a failsafe recovery mode built in. Checks the firmware and if it's corrupt/missing, or if you hold down some key(s), it lets you reflash the firmware.

On the other hand, maybe it is not the reflashing of firmware which makes it BER, but that calibration constants may have been lost and recalibrating is the difficult part.

Either way, bad design. Agilent is .

[linux-works]

not likely that constants would be in the same bank of flash as program mem.  progmem would be flash and settings would be some other kind of nvram or at least a different segment of flash.  just a guess, though; but flashing should never cause reset of cal constants.

[Sbampato12]

Some time ago I had a problem with a Sony mp3, and the answer when I tried to get some schematic (because the problem was with some resistors and capacitors that deteriored) they said that I can't get it, and in the same email they told me that the mp3 was in this class of non reparable item, so I got a new one (here in brazil it costs about 80~100 dollars that time).

But in your case it is a little different. BUT is always important to know that you bought this meter second hand (I don't think they should reject repair only about that, but that is another question).
AND you bought in a different country (this is always a big deal, in case of warranty).

And last, I'm a little with Dannyf, it doesn't looks like a agilent response.
Last week I bought some parts for an old (2004) second hand (or 'more hands'  ) power supply, and all the emails looked very very different from these. It is a different case, but it was a very, very different treatment.

By the way, I has a U1273A too. Didn't try to update it yet (and I wasn't thinking about that). Maybe I should at least try it before get off warranty.

[linux-works]

slightly OT, but about 20 yrs ago, I was ok buying sony gear and when I needed to do a repair or even upgrade (base models often were the same as higher end models, just depopulated on the pcb), I would call sony, ask for the repair manual and pay $10 or so for it.  easy as can be!  full color schematics, multipage, good quality.  that was back when sony still was a reasonable company (before the war on the consumer and the rootkit BS).  its very possible they stopped selling schematics to end users but they used to have no problem sending you parts and service guides for affordable prices.

[Richard Crowley]

Yes, Sony used to be GREAT. They would sell service manuals that were truly a Work of Art, and parts were easily available.  But those service manuals got so expensive to produce, and they had such an explosion of products that the authorized repair people were complaining about the cost (and sheer BULK) of all the service info.  So they switched to providing service publications on CD/DVDand made it a subscription service which big commercial service centers loved. But small service guys, and end-users were effectively shut out of the market.

And as for parts. I have four Sony NX5 video cameras and I wanted to get some additional cold-shoe brackets to mount both viewfinder, and tally lignts. But the two tiny metal stampings (slightly larger than your thumb-nail) cost US$75 each!  And even the tiny 1.5M attachment screws cost $4.75 each! My local service guy agreed that those prices are clearly designed to discourage any normal person from troubling them with such trivial things.  I could have cold shoe brackets custom-machined for less than that!  Maybe that is what Sony is wanting me to do.

[linux-works]

this was just funny to me and I could never forget this: on one cd player that I bought (20+ yrs ago, some carousel 5disc model back when those were popular) there was a base model and an ES higher end model.  the ES model had coax spdif-out (shows how old this is: it was before sony gave up on coax-out and went with opto-out pretty much exclusively for digital audio out) but the base model did not.  I ordered the repair manual, found the 3 or 4 parts that were needed (room on the pcb was there; same pcb, in fact).  there was an orange rca jack, a 74hcu04 (very commonly used), a cap and a coil/choke.  the funny part was that the choke had no value and its description was:

"inductor, small"

that's it.  "inductor comma small".  no value.  just that.

for some reason, that really cracked me up.  and from then on, I would joke with friends "ah!  I know what you need.  this circuit just needs an inductor-comma-small.  that's all!"

LOL

[true]

Firstly, about the warranty, the 3 year warranty has to be ordered together when purchase the unit. The price will be different from what you see online. From your provided documents, we cannot see any warranty extension information. So the default warranty period for U1273A including all accessories only can enjoy 3 months replacement warranty.
 
Secondly, I’ve ask engineer about the repair possibility again. Unfortunately, still no per incident repair is available. If you insist to send it to Agilent for repair, we only can quote you the unit exchange price, which will be as high as a new one.
 
Lastly, just a gentle reminder, pls find the correct purchasing channel to buy Agilent products in future in case of any warranty dispute. Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The above doesn't sound official correspondence with a customer. Heck, it doesn't even sound like proper English. It is possible that today's young people don't do well in writing but this is a little bit too much.

And last, I'm a little with Dannyf, it doesn't looks like a agilent response.

Guess you didn't read the thread. He is dealing with Hong Kong support.

If anything this looks TOO GOOD to be English coming from HK or PRC tech support.

[Rick Law]

Firstly, about the warranty, the ..... Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The above doesn't sound official correspondence with a customer. Heck, it doesn't even sound like proper English. It is possible that today's young people don't do well in writing but this is a little bit too much.

And last, I'm a little with Dannyf, it doesn't looks like a agilent response.

Guess you didn't read the thread. He is dealing with Hong Kong support.

If anything this looks TOO GOOD to be English coming from HK or PRC tech support.

Well, before we Americans get too full of ourselves thinking these folks from China can't even talk....

OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) tests member nations regularly.  This is our OECD-PISA test rankings:  (The three numbers are for Math, Reading, and Science)

USA  481 (rank #36) 489 (rank #24) 497 (rank #28)
UK  494 (rank #26) 499 (rank #23) 514 (rank #20)
... ...
Hong Kong, China 561 (rank #3rd) 545 (rank #2nd) 555 (rank #2)
Shanghai, China 613 (rank 1st)  570 (rank 1st) 580 (rank 1st)

So, before we laugh at the Chinese English or their inability to create anything but junk, remember, we are number 36 talking about the incompetence of the Seating Champion, THE number 1, and the first runner up, THE number 2.

You can find PISA score all over the web, but here is a good summary from UK TheGuardian.  It is damn depressing, I'll say.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/dec/03/pisa-results-country-best-reading-maths-science#zoomed-picture

You (if you are American) should be as angry as I am.  We pay so much into the Education Establishment and we get so little back.

Rick

[true]

You (if you are American) should be as angry as I am.  We pay so much into the Education Establishment and we get so little back.

Rick

Completely unrelated and not mutually exclusive. (But I agree with the statement.)

[nanofrog]

The three numbers are for Math, Reading, and Science

Wouldn't the language parts be for a particular country's national language though, rather than English for all nations?

Might explain whey their scores are higher, as well as why things such as manuals are so poorly written in English.