Failed firmware update on U1273A and Agilent's Response

[TimothySwieter]

So I've had a Agilent U1273A Multimeter for 11 months now.  I got the USB communication kit a while ago, and when I was on Agilent's site last week I noticed there was a firmware upgrade for the meter.  So I downloaded it and proceeded to flash my multimeter.  But....

...Agilent Windows software crashed, while uploading the firmware to the meter!!     The software just disappeared with no error message or nothing.  Now my meter is stuck with a "D...." on the OLED screen and the firmware upload won't work any more and the meter surely doesn't function. 

I e-mailed Agilent's customer service hoping they could help.  At first they had trouble locating my serial number in their system, but after I got them all the documentation they then tell me that my meter is only under a 3 month warranty and not a 1 year warranty.  How was I to know that?  Further more they state:

Since model U1273A is throwaway product, no Per Incident repairs available.  Please purchase a new unit if not covered by warranty.
Due to Agilent cannot support component repair, I’m afraid you have to purchase a new one if it is faulty.

Really Agilent?  You throw these away?  Let me find your dumpster then.
Surely they had designed a better product than this.  Obviously something is driving the OLED screen and displaying text, so there is some sort of "life" (read: processing) going on in the meter.
I've bought thousands of dollars of Agilent equipment, and there response to my only call for warranty and support is "throw it away, buy a new one".  No!!  I don't throw away tools that cost this much.

Anyone else have similar trouble with firmware upgrades or customer support?
Any tricks for getting inside to do a reset or flashing of the MCU?

This is ridiculous service from Agilent.  I'm even willing to pay a small fee, say US$40, to get my meter repaired, but they told me to throw it away.   

[Orange]

Which country are you located ?
Did you buy it trough an authorized seller ?


The U1273A comes with 3 YEARS warranty and 3 months on accessories, see the product brochure, it is stated clearly....

Unbelievable story

[nowlan]

Surely they were referring to the packaging when they said to throw away. 

I think Europe is 3 years by law.

[nowlan]

Warranty information - link

* 6. Agilent warrants that Agilent Service will be provided in a professional and workmanlike manner. For ninety (90) days from the date of repair, Agilent will replace, at no charge, defective parts used in Agilent’s repair of Products.

* 3. Agilent warrants that Software will not fail to execute its programming instructions due to defects in materials and workmanship when properly installed and used on the hardware designated by Agilent. Agilent warrants that Agilent owned standard Software substantially conforms to Specifications. Agilent does not warrant that Software will operate in hardware and software combinations selected by Customer, or meet requirements specified by Customer.

[Richard Crowley]

So what was so compelling about the "upgrade"?  How do you "upgrade" a basic piece of test gear?
This is exactly why I very rarely "upgrade" anything, software, firmware, or hardware.
Only when there is some overwhelming reason to take the risk.
One man's "upgrade" is another's disaster.

[T3sl4co1l]

Obviously, the software was not "properly installed".  Proof: crash during update.

Shitty...

Tim

[firewalker]

No secret key combination with a boot loader to enter update mode, and reload the firmware?

Alexander.

[TimothySwieter]

Thank you guys for the reply. 

I bought it in the USA, but I am currently living in Hong Kong.  I contact Agilent through their web site, and I've been working with a local customer service rep who has been kind and nice, but is firm that there is nothing to do.  I see on the paper work with the meter the 3 month warranty for the accessories. 

I am just dumbfounded that the rep is stating there is no way to repair this.  I understand "bricking" some pieces when upgrading firmware.  This unit at least has some responsiveness like it is going into a download mode when you restart the meter. 

I was upgrading the firmware because of the smoothing function referenced in the release notes.

[macboy]

The U1273A definitely comes with a 3-year warranty. It was released in late 2011, so every unit ever sold should still be under warranty. Contact Agilent again. If you don't get the answer you need from the person you speak to, ask to speak to their supervisor. Or try to contact Agilent customer relations, or a regional manager or representative. If you do lots of busniess with them, so contact your sales rep and let him know that you don't appreciate the grief you are getting. He has a vested interested in keeping you as a customer. Once people need to start answering to someone else internally, their helpfulness toward you can change quickly.

[tsmith35]

So what was so compelling about the "upgrade"?  How do you "upgrade" a basic piece of test gear?
This is exactly why I very rarely "upgrade" anything, software, firmware, or hardware.
Only when there is some overwhelming reason to take the risk.
One man's "upgrade" is another's disaster.

While there is always a risk associated with updating anything electronic, I avoid letting fear, uncertainty and doubt prevent me from keeping the firmware on my equipment up to date. With most firmware updates, there is typically no overwhelmingly important reason to install them, but if these updates are so insignificant, why would manufacturers even bother to develop and release firmware updates?

Myself, I have updated firmware thousands of times on everything including phones, meters, computers, calculators, watches, PLCs, televisions, streaming media players, game consoles, an automobile (dealer did that one), mp3 players, CD/DVD/Bluray drives, hard drives, SSDs, routers, modems, APs, USB3 chipsets, printers and so on.

How many unrecoverable firmware update failures have I had? I can only think of one: a PC motherboard. How many recoverable firmware failures have I had? Probably half a dozen, but the firmware update software in each case was well-written and allowed me to retry the update until successful.

Fear of updating firmware isn't the issue here: Agilent's failure to honor their three-year warranty is the real issue.

If you're curious about what was fixed with the firmware update, take a look here: http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/U1273A_firmware_release_notes.txt

It's interesting that Agilent believes their multimeters are "throwaway" products, while Fluke understands that their own multimeters are essential pieces of equipment. It appears that Agilent doesn't have a lot of regard for their multimeter customers.

[grumpydoc]

As has been pointed out above the meter itself should have a 3-year warranty.

The 90 days pointed out by nowlan refers to repairs under warranty which are themselves warranted for 90 days (why not the longer of the original warranty or 90 days I don't know).

Still seems a shit response from Agilent

Did you buy the meter new?

[linux-works]

that's a $400 meter!

throw-away?  excuse me??

wow.  unbelievable.  that does not make sense, though.  not one company would 'throw away' a $400 meter in today's economy!  not sure what planet that guy on the phone was from, but I would try again and ask for a supervisor.

tell them you are updating a forum thread with the supervisor's response, and so that might make them take this matter a bit more seriously.  maybe.

also, get it in writing; if that person says it cannot and will not be fixed, get THAT statement in writing.  I bet blogs would love to hear about stuff like this if its really true.

as for firmware bricking, its always a possibility but properly designed gear, TODAY, does not brick due to a failed upgrade of firmware.  I own quite a bit of olympus gear and olympus has done a pretty bad job (over the years) of their firmware upgrade procedure.  many folks on the camera forums had bricked their lenses (yes, they have firmware, too!) and camera bodies.  usually oly will reflash the camera using the service port but its really a sign of sub-par software and hardware design for embedded systems to be brickable due to a failed upgrade.

I would expect this from 1hl companies.  I would NOT expect any firmware fails from HP of all places!

(ok, not real HP anymore, we all know that)

[nanofrog]

Since the meter was purchased in the US, perhaps it would be better to contact Agilent there instead of through the Hong Kong office?

The response received from HK might be the result of cultural differences.  PITA, but worth a shot IMHO.

[macboy]

that's a $400 meter!

throw-away?  excuse me??

It's "throw away" as in, any fault is considered "BER": Beyond Economic Repair. That's fancy talk to say that it is cheaper to buy a new one than to spend time and money trying to repair the fault, or that it is technologically impossible to repair (e.g. glob-top IC).

For the end user, this means that if it fails during warranty, they should give you a new one instead of a refurbished one (since they don't do repairs), and that after the warranty is over, they don't offer for-cost repair services.

[Khashoggi]

Pull the battery out and wait a minute. Check to see if PC software communicates. If not, pull battery and let it sit overnight to drain any onboard memory retention caps and try again with PC in the morning.

[linux-works]

that's a $400 meter!

throw-away?  excuse me??

It's "throw away" as in, any fault is considered "BER": Beyond Economic Repair. That's fancy talk to say that it is cheaper to buy a new one than to spend time and money trying to repair the fault, or that it is technologically impossible to repair (e.g. glob-top IC).

For the end user, this means that if it fails during warranty, they should give you a new one instead of a refurbished one (since they don't do repairs), and that after the warranty is over, they don't offer for-cost repair services.

$30 is a throw-away meter.

$400 is just not.  not even for the US gov that has bottomless pockets

I think this must really be a mistranslation or that the HP rep thought this was an international warranty claim on a US product, or something.  (reminds me of how arrogant nikon is if you buy a greymarket item and want to pay to have it fixed; they will usually refuse you!  in that case, its all about warranty politics and not ability to repair)

[retiredcaps]

You might want to PM eevblog userid mike_kawasaki who works at Agilent.  He participated in this thread about the U1272A crappy soldering and was helpful.  He doesn't regularly login here so make sure to PM him to get his attention.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/agilent-u1272a-crappy-soldering/

[jpb]

I was looking at the service manual for the Agilent 53230 counter. Essentially the only replacement parts seem to be the power supply, the whole motherboard and the processor board and most faults led to the "solution" replace motherboard. (I've not included the display and optional 6GHz or 15GHz modules.)

So it seems that even for a very expensive (up to around $9k) units the only repair is to just replace the bulk of the unit. Even the OCXO option is a part of the motherboard - they sell separate motherboard parts for OCXO or TCXO options.

I'm not surprised, given this, that a $400 meter is treated as a throw-it-away-if-it-is-broken indivisible module. I share people's shock at this but it seems to be the most economical approach from Agilent's point of view.

It means that, if like me, you're looking to buy a used item from Agilent on e-bay it is a bit of a gamble as if it becomes faulty replacing the core motherboard will probably cost more than what you've paid for the whole unit.

Of course the main issue in this thread is that the OP's meter should still be under warranty and thus be replaced by Agilent.

[linux-works]

yes, its true that they mostly just swap whole boards, these days.  do they repair the boards and re-use them later?  they should, but maybe the cost of labor is not worth it to them and people who buy NEW agilent generally can afford to eat an occasional loss here and there.

but for us home lab guys, it sounds like most modern gear is not worth owning if you need to count on it AND keep it running yourself.  we pretty much knew this anyway and its why older ebay gear is more appealing to many of us than newer gear.  I won't buy new tek scopes (can't really fix them) and so I'll buy the older ones and keep them running as long as I can.

still, we are talking about a FIRMWARE failure, here.  to not have a way to debrick the module in a cost effective way is pretty insulting.  I would understand a board level failure being too expensive to repair but not a failed firmware flash update!  is there no jtag port at all?   of course there is, how else would they load initial firmware?

[Richard Crowley]

While there is always a risk associated with updating anything electronic, I avoid letting fear, uncertainty and doubt prevent me from keeping the firmware on my equipment up to date. With most firmware updates, there is typically no overwhelmingly important reason to install them, but if these updates are so insignificant, why would manufacturers even bother to develop and release firmware updates?

To my way of thinking the risk/benefit is strongly negative:
RISK: A "bricked" multi-$100 piece of gear, and then having to deal with an intransigent, faceless, soul-less multi-national corp. (Witness the OP's account.)   
BENEFIT: Fixing some problem that doesn't affect me, or adding some feature I don't use or need.

Myself, I have updated firmware thousands of times on everything including phones, meters, computers, calculators, watches, PLCs, televisions, streaming media players, game consoles, an automobile (dealer did that one), mp3 players, CD/DVD/Bluray drives, hard drives, SSDs, routers, modems, APs, USB3 chipsets, printers and so on.

How many unrecoverable firmware update failures have I had? I can only think of one: a PC motherboard. How many recoverable firmware failures have I had? Probably half a dozen, but the firmware update software in each case was well-written and allowed me to retry the update until successful.

I genuinely applaud and envy your luck.  Your upgrade karma is clearly several orders above mine. I have a growing stack of bricked stuff that is probably note even worth a teardown video. Every time I turn on the GPS in my car, TomTom natters at me that my maps are "25 months old", and I should upgrade them.  Now I think that upgrading the maps in my GPS is a legitimate thing, but alas, no computer I have ever tried will recognize my GPS when I plug in the USB cable. 

Fear of updating firmware isn't the issue here: Agilent's failure to honor their three-year warranty is the real issue.

If you're curious about what was fixed with the firmware update, take a look here: http://www.home.agilent.com/upload/cmc_upload/All/U1273A_firmware_release_notes.txt

It's interesting that Agilent believes their multimeters are "throwaway" products, while Fluke understands that their own multimeters are essential pieces of equipment. It appears that Agilent doesn't have a lot of regard for their multimeter customers.

Apparently $400 is in the "disposable" category for HP/Agilent/Keysight. Clearly, they have a significantly different world-view than most of us here.

[jpb]

yes, its true that they mostly just swap whole boards, these days.  do they repair the boards and re-use them later?  they should, but maybe the cost of labor is not worth it to them and people who buy NEW agilent generally can afford to eat an occasional loss here and there.

I would guess that they retreive some components but don't repair the board. I would have thought that they would rescue OCXOs if they still work but perhaps everything else is not worth the cost of recovery (the cost to them of just producing a new board as part of manufacture is probably a lot less than the labour cost of mending boards or even retrieving components from them).

I agree about the older equipment, unfortunately in my case I have very limited space on my "work bench/lab" (really just a modified desk) and old equipment is just too bulky so I have to opt for smaller modern equipment and hope it doesn't fail.

If you have the space you can get some very high spec and well built equipment for very reasonable sums.

[grumpydoc]

It's "throw away" as in, any fault is considered "BER": Beyond Economic Repair. That's fancy talk to say that it is cheaper to buy a new one than to spend time and money trying to repair the fault, or that it is technologically impossible to repair (e.g. glob-top IC).

For the end user, this means that if it fails during warranty, they should give you a new one instead of a refurbished one (since they don't do repairs), and that after the warranty is over, they don't offer for-cost repair services.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/light-bulb-conspiracy/

[nanofrog]

of course there is, how else would they load initial firmware?

Easy actually... bulk programming. Either before the parts are ever stuffed onto the boards, or after they've been soldered using a bed of nails jig.  

[linux-works]

right, bed of nails or pogo sticks but STILL a programming port onboard.

I would think an onboard port would exist, if for no other reason that they can do manufacturing testing on the whole board, then.  flashing the ship and saying 'ship it' seems a bit low-service, even for the current company known as keyslight or whatever they call themselves today.

[nanofrog]

right, bed of nails or pogo sticks but STILL a programming port onboard.

I would think an onboard port would exist, if for no other reason that they can do manufacturing testing on the whole board, then.  flashing the ship and saying 'ship it' seems a bit low-service, even for the current company known as keyslight or whatever they call themselves today.

Can be done directly on the pins/pads post soldering if they can be contacted properly with pogo pins, which is why they're desirable for in-circuit testing (and programming). Possible to program and test using the same jig. So adding a port during routing isn't an absolute necessity for all cases (depends on component package/s used). 

And a port certainly isn't necessary if the programming is done prior to stuffing & soldering (even the bottom side of a BGA is accessible at this point). 

[zaoka]

Thats Agilent, nothing new to me.

They only invest money into top salesman and marketing experts. If you carefully read their material you will find that they have "AMAZING" tech support. They are "AMAZING" only in following support scripts which are unknown to the end user until you run into something like this.

And its not only for $400 meters, I complained about U3401A diode problem, they told me to return meter to the store and get new. I told them that meter is not new to return and their answer was SORRY ABOUT THAT, nothing we can do 

[Bored@Work]

Sounds like a rather good plan to take away market shares from Fluke - not.

[IanB]

Agilent    ...

Thank you for making this known. I will be sure to avoid Agilent when considering any future purchases of test equipment.

[tautech]

Agilent    ...

Thank you for making this known. I will be sure to avoid Agilent when considering any future purchases of test equipment.

+1
They have had more than $400 worth of bad press here !

[CosPhi]

When we are talking about bad points of Agilent meters.... I have an U1272A with the firmware version 2.04 (the latest)

By using "Scale" to switch the display to Amps (for use with a current clamp), it is not possible to measure the peak. Just Min/Max/Avg work, but not peak.

The Amps jack is very "sensitive" to sense something plugged into it. If it is just a little bit dirty it's not possible to use the meter because it just beebs and blinks. When you are out in the field that's really annoying (and embarrassing too). Usually it's not just done with blow a little bit in the Amp jack. You really have to go in the Amp jack with something small and sharp to clean the two crack's in the jack very well.
Of course it's "a bit" dirty on work because of steel industry but I never ever had something like that with any of our Flukes.

martin

[c4757p]

Agilent    ...

Thank you for making this known. I will be sure to avoid Agilent when considering any future purchases of test equipment.

+1

What a shifty, shady, lazy, cheap-ass way to handle this. They broke your meter with their software - that should be beyond warranty expiration quibbles, they fucking broke it. A company like Agilent should be able to figure out how to write firmware that can get through an interrupted upload without shitting itself, and really ought to have the balls to own up to their mistake when they fail to do that.

Agilent 

[linux-works]

I toyed with buying the agilent oled handheld model (even though dave gave it, mostly, a thumbs down in his video review) but now, I won't touch a new agilent bit of gear if I have to buy it for home use.

its one thing if its not cost effective for us to fix things; but its quite another if the vendor thinks its not cost effective, too!

[linux-works]

maybe for the lower end 'commodity products', these could be outsourced.  in which case, they would likely be designed NOT to be 'supported' and really could be designed from the start as throw-aways.

designing a firmware upgrade process is not rocket science anymore.  no engineering-oriented company should get a free pass if a firmware upgrade bricks the device.  that's fine for 1hl companies but for agilent?  wow.  beyond inexcusable.  for $400, I would think dual flash banks would be a GIVEN!

or, at least, buffer the firmware in ram and only commit it if it passes crc.

[Zbig]

Wow, what a bunch of arrogant assholes Well, at least I'm no longer weighing between getting an Agilent or Hameg bench meter. In this day and age (social media, etc.), what this guy replied to you seems almost suicidal-kind-of-retarded.

[linux-works]

we really do need a 2nd confirmation before we march to agilent HQ with pitchforks, torches and bulk-erasers

[Wytnucls]

Had the same experience with Sony years ago, with a BIOS flash on a newish Vaio laptop ($1,800) that never completed properly. Sony advised that the only fix available was to install a new motherboard ($1,200). Bought a new laptop instead, with a note to self, never to attempt a software upgrade again.

[linux-works]

sony is a very shitty company, though.  everyone I know boycotts sony (for tons of reasons).

we expect sony (their consumer division, at least) to be assholes.  we don't expect agilent to be.

[XOIIO]

Had the same experience with Sony years ago, with a BIOS flash on a newish Vaio laptop ($1,800) that never completed properly. Sony advised that the only fix available was to install a new motherboard ($1,200). Bought a new laptop instead, with a note to self, never to attempt a software upgrade again.

No replacements on ebay? Even pretty new laptops have some for a couple hundred.

[Wytnucls]

Not that I can recall. eBay was not really an option at the time anyway and laptop models differed from one region to another.

[VK5RC]

I too don't understand Agilent's response,  the meter is bricked not the accessory,  the software may also be faulty!
This is not typical of Agilent,  some years ago I  was actually given a small part needed to repair a medical item,  as quite sensibly the fellow said "it would cost more to invoice me than the part was worth".

[staxquad]

sony is a very shitty company, though.  everyone I know boycotts sony (for tons of reasons).

we expect sony (their consumer division, at least) to be assholes.  we don't expect agilent to be.

I have a Sony NEX 5N camera that jammed, was unusable, and I flashed a firmware upgrade, from ver. 1.1 to 1.2, to revive it, been working perfectly since.  (the reverse of a product that works and a firmware flash bricks it)

[amyk]

Unless there is something physically damaged, it is not really "bricked". It saddens and irritates me to think of how many devices are needlessly thrown away because their firmware got corrupted, when a few minutes with a simple programmer would've probably been enough to fix them.

You can reflash a motherboard BIOS with nothing more than a few wires and a parallel port. Any other serially writable memory too. MCUs are included, of course.

The seeming lack of recovery is a little disturbing. E.g. my Android phone has a bootloader in ROM that goes to a special USB mode if you cold-boot it with one of the keys held down. Even the cheap Chinese MP3 players I've played around with have a basic recovery program in their boot ROM.

Since Agilent doesn't seem to care, how about we figure out how to unbrick OP's meter. Hack the bloody thing wide open! I don't have a U1273A myself but if I did I would probably help out with this more. What's the update protocol? Does it have a special "recovery mode" (tried holding down keys at startup)? If it's a USB device, does it still get detected?

[BravoV]

Even though its a known problem, yes, it sucks, but just read the Fluke DMM owners experiences regarding their support -> Fluke DMM leaky caps, Agilent DMM suport policy simply not in the same league as Fluke.

[echen1024]

I have had nothing but good experiences with Agilent service, but this is very, very disturbing. A supposedly top-notch company that most of the forum trusts, refusing their warranty?  I understand that the meter is considered "disposable" in the sense that most hardware faults are BER, but software very, very rarely bricks an item to the point of BER. Shame on you, Agilent.

[Rick Law]

-or-

May be it is just a bad customer rep the OP happened to contact?  Perhaps?  We hope?

Try getting to someone with authority to make something happen - like talking to the supervisor.  Any company can end up with a less than perfect customer service rep.  Let's hope this is not Aligent being unresponsive but instead a one-off bad customer service agent...

[Richard Crowley]

I have a Sony NEX 5N camera that jammed, was unusable, and I flashed a firmware upgrade, from ver. 1.1 to 1.2, to revive it, been working perfectly since.  (the reverse of a product that works and a firmware flash bricks it)

Good to know.  I have four of those cameras.  I re-flashed my EX1 camera with great trepidation, but I haven't attempted to do anything with my NX5s.

[grumpydoc]

In the general case I've updated firmware on cameras, motherboards, TVs and plenty of other gadgets with no problems.

But shit happens - it could just as easily been a power cut as a software crash and occasionally firmware gets corrupted.

But it's not exactly rocket science to have a checksum on the main image and a bootloader capable of checking that it is valid and re-flashing a new image if not.

To the OP - have you tried reflashing the meter (apologies if you said that you did but haven't got time to re-read all the posts).

[electr_peter]

To my way of thinking the risk/benefit is strongly negative:
RISK: A "bricked" multi-$100 piece of gear, and then having to deal with an intransigent, faceless, soul-less multi-national corp. (Witness the OP's account.)   
BENEFIT: Fixing some problem that doesn't affect me, or adding some feature I don't use or need.

I happen to agree with Richard on updating issue - update risk is almost always much greater than potential benefit.

What could you gain with a firmware/software update?
   1) some bragging rights (I think this is a main motivator for some folks, I don't care)
   2) bug fixes
   3) additional features
   4) better performance (faster/less power - yes, this sometimes happen)
What could you lose with a firmware/software update? What could go wrong?
   1) lose time - it depends, sometimes it is very messy and time consuming. Include time of non functioning device.
   2) lose money - sometimes you need to buy new device.
   3) lose nerves and sanity - most of the cases, of course.
   4) device doesn't work at all (complete bricking)
   5) device doesn't work at all but is fixable to a known state (complete bricking with a sign of hope)
   6) device lose compatibility with your PC (yes, this happened several times to me with USB WiMax sticks. Works fine till update then just crashes. Do you want to risk losing the internet?)
   7) device works worse (less features) but cannot be downgraded to older version
   8 ) device works worse (less features) but can be downgraded to older version
   9) device works the same but cannot be downgraded to older version  - why? This is annoying.

Personally, I take SW/FW updates seriously and use this approach to limit the risk:
1) for serious equipment (big $ or that is critical for everyday business) I try no to update it. Unless update offer some very important functionality or bug fixes.
2) for semi-serious equipment (mid $, rarely used, not that critical) I try to ensure in advance that update is OK - by looking for other users experience with new update. Don't rush update, there will be less tears in the long run.
3) for cheap/don't care equipment, some SW drivers I update them regularly because I KNOW that screwing up update doesn't have serious consequences. I like to keep my PC compatible with newest flash/video/etc. drivers and codecs.

If the equipment works well, why do you want to risk that? Think about reliability for a sec.
I am not against updating in general, but I think that you have to consider the risk each time for specific case. YMMV of course.

[jpb]

The main thing that I update firmware on is my computer workstation (i.e. the bios and that of various peripheral cards such as a USB3 one).

I do this despite the risks and even if the listed bug fixes don't look significant because I have a vague hope that this will keep things up-to-date and playing nicely with new software and peripherals. Also I wonder if some bugs are fixed without being officially listed - i.e. bugs that the manufacturer finds but have not yet been reported so they fix them on the quiet. (Perhaps I'm a little cynical.)

In the pc world now motherboard manufacturers often provide a backup system or dual bios so if your bios update goes wrong you can restore it from the backup on the board. Given the cost of Agilent gear you'd think they could do the same or at least have the option to restore it externally.

On the other hand, on my Mac Pro at work I am very reluctant to update the OS unless I really have to - I'd kept it the same for four years but recently had to update (though not to the latest) to get Maple 18 to run.

[London Lad]

The product has failed while under warranty. The rest is of no consequence. How Agilent fix or replace it is their problem.

Write to the CEO of Agilent in the US, a letter not an email, addressed to him / her by name and post it by recorded delivery or whatever is the equivalent in your country.

Be polite, state the facts, mention the surprise and outrage of members here and I am sure you will have a new meter in no time.

[TimothySwieter]

Thank you guys for the continued support.  I'll update the thread when I learn more.  Today was a holiday in Hong Kong, so no communication with Agilent. 

All I want is to get my 11 month old meter working again with minimal cost and hassle.  I'll see about contacting a higher level person after I talk with the customer service rep one more time.  Hopefully this has a happy ending, I'm am optimist. 

[edavid]

I think that if you posted on the Agilent forums, you would get it straightened out pretty quickly.

http://www.home.agilent.com/owc_discussions/category.jspa?categoryID=29

[nanofrog]

Thank you guys for the continued support.  I'll update the thread when I learn more.  Today was a holiday in Hong Kong, so no communication with Agilent. 

All I want is to get my 11 month old meter working again with minimal cost and hassle.  I'll see about contacting a higher level person after I talk with the customer service rep one more time.  Hopefully this has a happy ending, I'm am optimist.

I suggested it before, but why not try contacting Customer Support in the US, since that's where you actually purchased the meter? 

[linux-works]

well, I guess when it comes to agilent:

"you go to take a measurement with the meter and firmware it has;
 not the firmware you might want or wish it to have in the future"

or, something like that (grin)

[TimothySwieter]

The latest. 

I talked again with my customer service rep.  She had the following to say:

Firstly, about the warranty, the 3 year warranty has to be ordered together when purchase the unit. The price will be different from what you see online. From your provided documents, we cannot see any warranty extension information. So the default warranty period for U1273A including all accessories only can enjoy 3 months replacement warranty.
 
Secondly, I’ve ask engineer about the repair possibility again. Unfortunately, still no per incident repair is available. If you insist to send it to Agilent for repair, we only can quote you the unit exchange price, which will be as high as a new one.
 
Lastly, just a gentle reminder, pls find the correct purchasing channel to buy Agilent products in future in case of any warranty dispute. Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The last point is in regards to I bought this from someone who received the meter and didn't need it.  It was new, unopened, and complete with documentation and I checked this out prior to my buying it.  So that right there may be the whole reason they are bulking and only claiming a "3 month warranty".  However, still the fact remains that the firmware update failed after owning a brand new Agilent product for 11 months.  I'm completely beside myself.  If I had put a large voltage through unit, sure, I understand I broke it.  Updating firmware that the firmware loader crashes, something completely out of my control, and I am pissed off.   

In the end here, I just want a working meter.  This is a personal tool for work and hobby, so I take great care of my stuff and can't afford to drop several hundred more dollars on a unit. 

My response to Agilent was firm and polite asking to speak with a manager and referencing this thread.  I'd like to be a fan of Agilent, I have an MSO-X 2024A that I bought direct from Agilent, and several probes and meter accessories.  I've enjoyed the use of all my tools and they haven't failed me until now.  I'd like to continue, but surely if I am to spend more money, it won't be on any more Agilent equipment.  This situation has been most frustrating. 

For those that have a U1273A, in your "Box Contents List", does it list the 3 year warranty?  On mine, under the heading of "Accessories Included:" it states "W4100A-3MW Warranty, 3mth for Included Accessories".  I don't have any other line items for warranty. 

I'll update when I hear more.  I may have to write some letters, but hopefully I can call or talk to someone before then.  I may also try to contact a USA rep that I bought the MSO from. 

[jpb]

In the UK you have at least a year of warranty by law but this can be extended to much longer period if the goods are shown to be of not merchantable quality - i.e. if some fault shows up even six years later but was there from the manufacture then the supplier must replace or repair. This doesn't help you sadly, but perhaps provides a modicum of comfort for the enormous mark-up we have to pay on stuff we buy in the UK.

The three month warranty is very strange - I think this is the warranty that Agilent give to replacement units so perhaps the person you bought the meter from received it as a replacement for an earlier damaged meter.

This thread has made me more wary of purchasing from the second-hand section of the Agilent store. There are a couple of instruments I want to get but they are not premium used but just used so don't even carry a three month warranty.

[TimothySwieter]

Thanks jpb.  I'd have to see what USA rules are, that is where I bought it and where I am a citizen of, but perhaps that is complicated by being an expat and living in Hong Kong.  However, I thought I read about global warranty somewhere, that could be me mixing up warranty reading.  This whole debacle has me really reading the fine print on products.

As for Agilent "used" equipment, I have bought from E-bay user Agilent Used, which is by Agilent and is Certiprime equipment.  This is where I picked up my MSO-X 2024A two years ago.  The price was a great deal and it was easy to work with Oliver and Agilent on the purchase.  http://www.ebay.com/usr/agilentused?_trksid=p2047675.l2559  I did lots of reading and checking on Certiprime then, and everything looked good.  My scope has worked just fine, no problems with day to day use and firmware updates, etc.  I recommend buying equipment like this if you are on a budget and can get a good deal.

But....I now temper my recommendation because of this failed firmware update bricks my product and I get a "throw it away" message.  I just sent Oliver an e-mail, hopefully he can help me in my case here.

[London Lad]

You are just wasting your time working your way up and down the foot of the ladder talking to people who will just back up their immediate subordinates.

See my post above. Write (not email) to the CEO of Agilent in the US.

[tsmith35]

This whole issue with Agilent's apparent avoidance of their warranty responsibility on a $400 "throwaway" multimeter makes the standard Fluke warranty especially appealing:

Limited Lifetime Warranty
Each Fluke 20*, 70*, 80*, 170 and 180 series DMM will be free from defects in material and workmanship for its lifetime. As used herein, "lifetime" is defined as seven years after Fluke discontinues manufacturing the product, but the warranty period shall be at least ten years from date of purchase. *(Lifetime Warranty applies to products manufactured after October 1996)

In what way is the warranty limited?
    It does not cover batteries or fuses.
    It does not cover abuse or usage outside of specifications.
    It does not cover normal wear and tear of mechanical parts.
    It covers the LCD for 10 years only (state-of-the-art for LCDs).
    It covers original user purchaser only.

I hope the folks at Agilent will step forward and honor their three year warranty. Hopefully, their failure to honor the warranty is simply a misunderstanding which will be soon corrected.

[c4757p]

Hopefully, their failure to honor the warranty is simply a misunderstanding which will be soon corrected.

Yes, "misunderstanding", where Agilent misunderstood the very concepts of customer service and reputation.

[BravoV]

Thread bookmarked for future reference, might be useful in the future when it it comes to people looking for Agilent dmm.

[dannyf]

Since model U1273A is throwaway product, no Per Incident repairs available.  Please purchase a new unit if not covered by warranty.
Due to Agilent cannot support component repair, I’m afraid you have to purchase a new one if it is faulty.

Did someone from Agilent really write that?

I find that hard to believe.

Sounds like someone is working very hard to make Agilent look bad.

[dannyf]

Firstly, about the warranty, the 3 year warranty has to be ordered together when purchase the unit. The price will be different from what you see online. From your provided documents, we cannot see any warranty extension information. So the default warranty period for U1273A including all accessories only can enjoy 3 months replacement warranty.
 
Secondly, I’ve ask engineer about the repair possibility again. Unfortunately, still no per incident repair is available. If you insist to send it to Agilent for repair, we only can quote you the unit exchange price, which will be as high as a new one.
 
Lastly, just a gentle reminder, pls find the correct purchasing channel to buy Agilent products in future in case of any warranty dispute. Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The above doesn't sound official correspondence with a customer. Heck, it doesn't even sound like proper English. It is possible that today's young people don't do well in writing but this is a little bit too much.

Unless someone can independently verify that it comes from Agilent, or you can produce a screen shot of the email trail showing that it came from Agilent, I think it is risky to think that it comes from Agilent.

If it is indeed from Agilent, I would take it to Agilent CEO or investor relations and go from there.

[MagicSmoker]

Wow... what a train wreck. I just read the whole thread and my sole response is

The terrible customer service from Agilent is enough to make me think twice about buying anything from them in the future, but the real is that the actually coded a bootloader for a $400 meter that can't recover from a botched firmware upload. That is only acceptable in the cheapest of microcontroller-based products AND which are not intended to be field-upgradeable; once you add the latter capability, the bootloader ought to do some basic checksum and minimum size tests of any new firmware at the very least. Better still would be to backup the old firmware to, e.g., external flash memory just in case the shiny new firmware has some undesirable "hidden features".

Bill Hewlett and Dave Packard must be rolling in their graves over what has become of their beloved HP instruments division...

[_Sin]

This whole issue with Agilent's apparent avoidance of their warranty responsibility on a $400 "throwaway" multimeter makes the standard Fluke warranty especially appealing:

...

In what way is the warranty limited?
    ...
    It covers original user purchaser only.

OP said they'd bought it 2nd hand, so Fluke's warranty wouldn't cover it either.

Agree that a firmware update bricking something followed by the company concerned telling anyone to buy a new one, is shitty though. Minimum response should be to fix/replace the unit and investigate the issue.

I suggest standard approach to dealing with any customer service person should apply - if you don't like the answer you're getting, ask someone else until you get an answer you *do* like. And these days kicking up a fuss in public (social media, etc.) doesn't hurt. Posting here was already a good move, I think.

[amyk]

but the real is that the actually coded a bootloader for a $400 meter that can't recover from a botched firmware upload. That is only acceptable in the cheapest of microcontroller-based products AND which are not intended to be field-upgradeable;

The funny thing is, I've played with a lot of these ultra-cheap stuff and they often do have a failsafe recovery mode built in. Checks the firmware and if it's corrupt/missing, or if you hold down some key(s), it lets you reflash the firmware.

On the other hand, maybe it is not the reflashing of firmware which makes it BER, but that calibration constants may have been lost and recalibrating is the difficult part.

Either way, bad design. Agilent is .

[linux-works]

not likely that constants would be in the same bank of flash as program mem.  progmem would be flash and settings would be some other kind of nvram or at least a different segment of flash.  just a guess, though; but flashing should never cause reset of cal constants.

[Sbampato12]

Some time ago I had a problem with a Sony mp3, and the answer when I tried to get some schematic (because the problem was with some resistors and capacitors that deteriored) they said that I can't get it, and in the same email they told me that the mp3 was in this class of non reparable item, so I got a new one (here in brazil it costs about 80~100 dollars that time).

But in your case it is a little different. BUT is always important to know that you bought this meter second hand (I don't think they should reject repair only about that, but that is another question).
AND you bought in a different country (this is always a big deal, in case of warranty).

And last, I'm a little with Dannyf, it doesn't looks like a agilent response.
Last week I bought some parts for an old (2004) second hand (or 'more hands'  ) power supply, and all the emails looked very very different from these. It is a different case, but it was a very, very different treatment.

By the way, I has a U1273A too. Didn't try to update it yet (and I wasn't thinking about that). Maybe I should at least try it before get off warranty.

[linux-works]

slightly OT, but about 20 yrs ago, I was ok buying sony gear and when I needed to do a repair or even upgrade (base models often were the same as higher end models, just depopulated on the pcb), I would call sony, ask for the repair manual and pay $10 or so for it.  easy as can be!  full color schematics, multipage, good quality.  that was back when sony still was a reasonable company (before the war on the consumer and the rootkit BS).  its very possible they stopped selling schematics to end users but they used to have no problem sending you parts and service guides for affordable prices.

[Richard Crowley]

Yes, Sony used to be GREAT. They would sell service manuals that were truly a Work of Art, and parts were easily available.  But those service manuals got so expensive to produce, and they had such an explosion of products that the authorized repair people were complaining about the cost (and sheer BULK) of all the service info.  So they switched to providing service publications on CD/DVDand made it a subscription service which big commercial service centers loved. But small service guys, and end-users were effectively shut out of the market.

And as for parts. I have four Sony NX5 video cameras and I wanted to get some additional cold-shoe brackets to mount both viewfinder, and tally lignts. But the two tiny metal stampings (slightly larger than your thumb-nail) cost US$75 each!  And even the tiny 1.5M attachment screws cost $4.75 each! My local service guy agreed that those prices are clearly designed to discourage any normal person from troubling them with such trivial things.  I could have cold shoe brackets custom-machined for less than that!  Maybe that is what Sony is wanting me to do.

[linux-works]

this was just funny to me and I could never forget this: on one cd player that I bought (20+ yrs ago, some carousel 5disc model back when those were popular) there was a base model and an ES higher end model.  the ES model had coax spdif-out (shows how old this is: it was before sony gave up on coax-out and went with opto-out pretty much exclusively for digital audio out) but the base model did not.  I ordered the repair manual, found the 3 or 4 parts that were needed (room on the pcb was there; same pcb, in fact).  there was an orange rca jack, a 74hcu04 (very commonly used), a cap and a coil/choke.  the funny part was that the choke had no value and its description was:

"inductor, small"

that's it.  "inductor comma small".  no value.  just that.

for some reason, that really cracked me up.  and from then on, I would joke with friends "ah!  I know what you need.  this circuit just needs an inductor-comma-small.  that's all!"

LOL

[true]

Firstly, about the warranty, the 3 year warranty has to be ordered together when purchase the unit. The price will be different from what you see online. From your provided documents, we cannot see any warranty extension information. So the default warranty period for U1273A including all accessories only can enjoy 3 months replacement warranty.
 
Secondly, I’ve ask engineer about the repair possibility again. Unfortunately, still no per incident repair is available. If you insist to send it to Agilent for repair, we only can quote you the unit exchange price, which will be as high as a new one.
 
Lastly, just a gentle reminder, pls find the correct purchasing channel to buy Agilent products in future in case of any warranty dispute. Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The above doesn't sound official correspondence with a customer. Heck, it doesn't even sound like proper English. It is possible that today's young people don't do well in writing but this is a little bit too much.

And last, I'm a little with Dannyf, it doesn't looks like a agilent response.

Guess you didn't read the thread. He is dealing with Hong Kong support.

If anything this looks TOO GOOD to be English coming from HK or PRC tech support.

[Rick Law]

Firstly, about the warranty, the ..... Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The above doesn't sound official correspondence with a customer. Heck, it doesn't even sound like proper English. It is possible that today's young people don't do well in writing but this is a little bit too much.

And last, I'm a little with Dannyf, it doesn't looks like a agilent response.

Guess you didn't read the thread. He is dealing with Hong Kong support.

If anything this looks TOO GOOD to be English coming from HK or PRC tech support.

Well, before we Americans get too full of ourselves thinking these folks from China can't even talk....

OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) tests member nations regularly.  This is our OECD-PISA test rankings:  (The three numbers are for Math, Reading, and Science)

USA  481 (rank #36) 489 (rank #24) 497 (rank #28)
UK  494 (rank #26) 499 (rank #23) 514 (rank #20)
... ...
Hong Kong, China 561 (rank #3rd) 545 (rank #2nd) 555 (rank #2)
Shanghai, China 613 (rank 1st)  570 (rank 1st) 580 (rank 1st)

So, before we laugh at the Chinese English or their inability to create anything but junk, remember, we are number 36 talking about the incompetence of the Seating Champion, THE number 1, and the first runner up, THE number 2.

You can find PISA score all over the web, but here is a good summary from UK TheGuardian.  It is damn depressing, I'll say.
http://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/dec/03/pisa-results-country-best-reading-maths-science#zoomed-picture

You (if you are American) should be as angry as I am.  We pay so much into the Education Establishment and we get so little back.

Rick

[true]

You (if you are American) should be as angry as I am.  We pay so much into the Education Establishment and we get so little back.

Rick

Completely unrelated and not mutually exclusive. (But I agree with the statement.)

[nanofrog]

The three numbers are for Math, Reading, and Science

Wouldn't the language parts be for a particular country's national language though, rather than English for all nations?

Might explain whey their scores are higher, as well as why things such as manuals are so poorly written in English.

[Rick Law]

The three numbers are for Math, Reading, and Science

Wouldn't the language parts be for a particular country's national language though, rather than English for all nations?

Might explain whey their scores are higher, as well as why things such as manuals are so poorly written in English.

Unless there is any change in the last 5-6 years, it would be reading comprehension in their native language and not in English.

However, if I recall the stats from about 5 years ago (The Economist year end world review, they use to send out stats and comments).  China spend more $ learning English than the rest of the world combined.

More worrisome is, Chinese PhD's used to try to stay in this country to make a living here.  Now they are running home the moment they are done with their education.  We lost our luster.

[Kappes Buur]

http://cp.literature.agilent.com/litweb/pdf/5990-6425EN.pdf

On the bottom of page 7 it clearly states that the warranty period is 3 years.

However, dealing with a business in Asia could easily mean that they are not an authorized Agilent dealer.

Yet, wherever the meter was purchased (even with original or transferred warranty), applying an official update which bricks the meter is definitely something that should concern Agilent. Their software should indeed not be causing any problem.

After reading TimothySwieter's story, I will stay away from Agilent products.
All I can say is, unacceptable.

[edit]
http://www.agilent.com/about/companyinfo/company-separation.html
This makes me think that the Electronic Measurement Group is now wholly a chinese endeavour, no more Made in USA.

[TimothySwieter]

Last night I made contact with Oliver, the individual that runs Agilent's Ebay store from which I have bought equipment in the past.  Note that this meter purchase was not though that store, but like someone pointed out, he has an interest to keep me happy so I keep buying from him.  I gave him some details of my case, but I have not heard back yet.  I'll give it a day or two before I write the CEO and try other routes.

The representative that I have traded e-mails with is either in Hong Kong or China.  I don't mind the english, I guess I don't even see that having been in Asia for 7 years as it is just part of life.  I do try to get clarification on things if the translation doesn't look good.  I am so appreciative of those that do speak English and Chinese, I'd be lost in Asia without it. 

I've attached some images of the e-mail exchanges.  This is truly Agilent's team responding.  I am still hoping for a positive outcome, and I appreciate the support.  My desires continue to be an reasonable, inexpensive fix for my meter, and Agilent recognizing their products should be more robust on firmware upgrades.

-Tim

[dannyf]

I've attached some images of the e-mail exchanges.

That truly looks like agilent email. Wow, that's how much self-respect they have for their own products?

Amazing that they have sunk this low.

[dannyf]

before we Americans get too full of ourselves thinking these folks from China can't even talk....

Let me be the first to say that we overspend and underinvest, severely if I may add, in education. Our politicians have sold their souls and our kids to the teacher's unions. Poor education really is the beginning of the demise of America.

With that said, I would argue that comparing the US vs. Shanghai is grossly unfair, and the scoring system is grossly unfair. A more fair comparison would be comparing Cambridge, MA, or Wellesley, MA to Shanghai. or Choate to Shanghai.

As to the scoring system, if you are to pick a given number of participants in an exam, an entity (be it a country or a city) with a larger population has an advantage, everything else being equal.

[amyk]

slightly OT, but about 20 yrs ago, I was ok buying sony gear and when I needed to do a repair or even upgrade (base models often were the same as higher end models, just depopulated on the pcb), I would call sony, ask for the repair manual and pay $10 or so for it.  easy as can be!  full color schematics, multipage, good quality.  that was back when sony still was a reasonable company (before the war on the consumer and the rootkit BS).  its very possible they stopped selling schematics to end users but they used to have no problem sending you parts and service guides for affordable prices.

Ditto for when it was still called HP and not Agilent. Look at the service manuals for the older oscilloscopes/power supplies/etc.

[poorchava]

Agilent's gonna lose the entire low-end market to companies like UNI-T,Rigol or Brymen with such approach. Neither of those 3 gives you any sort or real warranty, but IMO it's better than paying premium and still not getting any real warranty. Shame on Agilent 

[sacherjj]

OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) tests member nations regularly.  This is our OECD-PISA test rankings:  (The three numbers are for Math, Reading, and Science)

USA  481 (rank #36) 489 (rank #24) 497 (rank #28)
UK  494 (rank #26) 499 (rank #23) 514 (rank #20)
... ...
Hong Kong, China 561 (rank #3rd) 545 (rank #2nd) 555 (rank #2)
Shanghai, China 613 (rank 1st)  570 (rank 1st) 580 (rank 1st)

As with all statistics, this is biased.  We take ALL of the US, including poor educated areas and highly educated areas.  Yet, we are comparing against Shanghai and Hong Kong, only the highly educated areas of China.  This is somewhat like using something like Silicon Valley or New York in the comparison. 

When over in China, I was surprised at the poor literacy rate of rural people.  Those who are well educated and skilled, congregate in the cities.  But as a whole, they are far behind the US.  We are developing various texts to distribute to rural China and have had to switch to recorded versions to get over half of the people to even understand it.

[macboy]

The latest. 

I talked again with my customer service rep.  She had the following to say:

Firstly, about the warranty, the 3 year warranty has to be ordered together when purchase the unit. The price will be different from what you see online. From your provided documents, we cannot see any warranty extension information. So the default warranty period for U1273A including all accessories only can enjoy 3 months replacement warranty.
 
Secondly, I’ve ask engineer about the repair possibility again. Unfortunately, still no per incident repair is available. If you insist to send it to Agilent for repair, we only can quote you the unit exchange price, which will be as high as a new one.
 
Lastly, just a gentle reminder, pls find the correct purchasing channel to buy Agilent products in future in case of any warranty dispute. Agilent has no authorized online shop to sell products. Strictly speaking, the proof of online purchase cannot be accepted by us.

The 3-year warranty is "standard" according to their web page and other documentation. I see no way to change the "configuration" as is possible with other instruments... further cementing that the 3 year warranty is standard.

In the U.S. I believe that all warranties are transferrable by law, but like so many things this may vary from state to state. Most states have strongly worded implied warranties (as suggested by other here especially in Europe and UK). Find the implied warranty for the state where this was originally purchased. Whether or not the implied warranty should cover you, the standard 3 year warranty should, so fire off an e-mail to the consumer protection office of that state (don't mention you are out of country, that's 'not important' at the moment), and let them know. Make sure to include documentation.

The statement about no authorized online shop is completely bogus and tells me that this guy is talking out his rear end. Go to Agilent's website for U1273A, click "how to buy or rent", and it will produce a list of half a dozen authorized sales channels, each with a "buy online" button right next to it, right there on Agilent's web site. No online sales?! Yeah right.

[dannyf]

New York in the comparison. 

Comparison of public education in  NYC vs. poorly educated areas in China probably gives NYC too much disadvantage,

But as a whole, they are far behind the US. 

Depending on your measurements. I would think in terms of literacy rates, China trails behind the US: the rural areas of China are probably on par with inner cities in the US, except they have a lot of rural areas.

In terms of well educated people, China far exceeds the US.

In terms of well educated engineering talents, US is more like a 3rd world country.

In terms of well educated and creative people, it is probably a draw or a slight advantage to the US. The best universities in China are no match for Harvards or MITs or Stanfords of the US but most of their universities will blow the doors off ours.

Most important of all, the cultural emphasis and parental involvement in education are so much more there that I don't see a chance for us to catch up, ever.

You just need to look at the Chinese and Asian families here and how well they have "equalized" themselves through education, in spite of great disadvantages.

For an administration so fixated on inequality, ...

[wraper]

Did you check warranty status here: https://service.home.agilent.com/infoline/public/single-lookup.aspx?

[Rick Law]

...
You just need to look at the Chinese and Asian families here and how well they have "equalized" themselves through education, in spite of great disadvantages.

For an administration so fixated on inequality, ...

Danny, replied to you in a new thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/side-track-conversation-on-education-and-(pisa)-test/

[Rick Law]

OECD (Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development) tests member nations regularly.  This is our OECD-PISA test rankings:  (The three numbers are for Math, Reading, and Science)

USA  481 (rank #36) 489 (rank #24) 497 (rank #28)
UK  494 (rank #26) 499 (rank #23) 514 (rank #20)
... ...
Hong Kong, China 561 (rank #3rd) 545 (rank #2nd) 555 (rank #2)
Shanghai, China 613 (rank 1st)  570 (rank 1st) 580 (rank 1st)

As with all statistics, this is biased.  ...

sacherjj , I replied to you in a new thread.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/side-track-conversation-on-education-and-(pisa)-test/

[mjkuwp]

I purchased an Agilent meter used on Ebay and they still honored the warranty when I had trouble with it.  In my case they replaced my meter with a different one.  I am in the USA.

My experience is that Agilent support was above my expectations.  I registered the product on their website and contacted them first through that interface... as I recall.  The meter in my case was a U1272A.

Thumbs up from me!

[Sbampato12]

Recently I bought a power supply, a34401 and a frequency counter 53181a. All seconded hand, all them with more than 10 years (or so), and I was able to buy a variety of parts to troubleshoot them, and all the help with Agilent. They were very responsive, a lot of emails, a very good communications. I still very confident with they. And I'm in Brazil, normally here we have a very poor consumer care, after the purchases (not with Agilent, but in general things).

[TimothySwieter]

Attached are the updates from today.  I'm short on schedule today, but if I can call their field engineers or rep, I will and report back.  It may be Monday though.

I'm encouraged to see some further information about the reasoning behind what they are saying about the warranty.  I sure hope they can offer a little grace if the unit was official purchased in January by the gentlemen I bought from, and then the 3 year warranty started in March. 

I ran into a troubleshooting situation last night and boy I wish I had the meter. 

[alexwhittemore]

FWIW, you might as well continue to take up as much of their time as possible. Of course, then you're taking up your own. But there will come a point at which it was a better deal for them to simply replace or repair the unit, rather than continue to pay support personnel to deal with you

[nanofrog]

I've a U1252B, bought in 2009. It came with a standard 3 year warranty, as did the U127x series, so their claim of the 3yr warranty period not being implemented until March of 2013 sounds bogus to me. Even if this was genuinely the case in China, the meter was purchased in the US, so the warranty will still be valid at only 11 months.

Worst case, you'd have to pursue a warranty claim in the US, and ship it to the US facility for RMA's.

Can't understand why you're still trying to deal with the Chinese office, as they're intent on blowing you off with BS. Repeatedly.  Better off to bypass them entirely IMHO at this point.

[Sbampato12]

As long as I know, the warranties, in general are only valid on contry of purchase. Unless the seller say something different.

And, I'm not saying that it is fair, but this and the fact that the warranty only apply to the first owner and only in the country of purchase is a common way of business.
That said I, I have to agree that this meters should have a 'restore' buttom, as said before in this thread.

As suggested before, and here again by nanofrog, I think you should try to get in contact with Agilent from where you bought the meter (in US if I'm not wrong).

[Co6aka]

As suggested before, and here again by nanofrog, I think you should try to get in contact with Agilent from where you bought the meter (in US if I'm not wrong).

"In the US..." is what I (think) I read in earlier posts too...

You should be contacting Agilent in the US, not HK, and if you cannot get a satisfactory resolution then you should file a report/complaint with the state's attorney general of the state in which you purchased it. It doesn't matter where in the world you took the unit after purchase, what matters is where you purchased it.

Also, realize that unless Agilent decides to be kindly accommodating you'll be required to ship it to the US for repair and then pay for return shipment.

Afterthought: If you don't get any satisfaction with Agilent-US then also contact Agilent's corporate "public relations" people.

[Stonent]

It appears from here that "D" must mean Download.

http://www.ittsb.eu/forum/index.php?topic=701.0

Maybe it is still trying some way but a setting is now off.

Got any teardown pictures? There may be a way to trace down a method of programming it from the inside.

[nanofrog]

FWIW, here's Agilent's US page on their 3 year warranty.

Worst case, you'll have to send it to the US, and have them ship it to a friend/family member, or professional reshipping company (presumes the return shipping fees they cover are for a US address only). You'll be into shipping 2x in this particular situation (you to Agilent, and most of the return distance from the US to you), but it will be a heck of a lot cheaper than buying a new meter.

Might get lucky of course, and either be able to send it to the China location after clearing this with the US (included in the RMA's instructions/terms), or if it has to be sent to the US, they'll cover all of the return shipping (US to HK). I'd be nervous as hell over the former though, given what's happened thus far (refuse to send a repaired/new unit, even with clear notes in the RMA sent by corporate).

[wraper]

I'll repeat my question, did you check your warranty status online? It takes 10 seconds: https://service.home.agilent.com/infoline/public/single-lookup.aspx

[dannyf]

send it to the US,

Based on the serial #, HP probably knows the particular meter's channel of distribution.

[TimothySwieter]

Sure, I'll try to submit a service request through the USA customer service.  I'll also try to call the two individuals here in HK, however I suspect I will get the same response as "can't help la".  And I'm waiting to hear back from Oliver at Agilent's Ebay store (whom I've bought other items through).

I've attached an image of my meter.  It is showing the "D...." without the hourglass.  I did see the hourglass when the download was starting.  Since then, only as shown in the image.  I did some power cycle, battery changes and some button pushing while turning the meter on and with the meter on to see if it could come out of this mode, but so far no joy.

I also attached an image of the Agilent warranty status checker.  It doesn't say anything for this serial number, not even the calibration certs, which I have in my hand and came with the meter.  So, from a warranty aspect, it is still not looking good.  But from an overall customer service, the firmware download made the meter fail, it shouldn't be a warranty thing.  It should be a thing at all.  It should just work without fail.

[London Lad]

The product has failed while under warranty. The rest is of no consequence. How Agilent fix or replace it is their problem.

Write to the CEO of Agilent in the US, a letter not an email, addressed to him / her by name and post it by recorded delivery or whatever is the equivalent in your country.

Be polite, state the facts, mention the surprise and outrage of members here and I am sure you will have a new meter in no time.

 

[TimothySwieter]

Well guys - thank you for the support.  My faith and pleasure of working with Agilent has been restored!!  They have agreed to replace the meter with the firmware failure.  Bella and Oliver of Agilent came through in resolving this issue.  I am pleased that Agilent has chosen to take the right action here.  I hope a message is also sent to their engineering team that products can be even better if it transfers the firmware to the unit before flashing the internal MCU, thus removing a potential weak link of the transfer software. 

Too bad I have to exchange the unit for the new one, otherwise I'd be up for cracking it open and seeing the internals. 

I'm so thrilled to get a working meter again and to have confidence to keep working with Agilent on future equipment purchases.   

-Tim

[TimothySwieter]

True, there was hassle and frustration at the beginning.  I don't totally forget that. 

When a company apologizes and takes the right action, I will accept that.  My desire has been all along to get my meter back to working order, and then to hopefully let the Agilent engineering team know that we as customers don't want equipment with weak firmware update capability.  I guess I am quick to offer grace, because I know that others have offered me when I first chose the wrong action but recognize my wrong.  In some ways, it show we are all humans, and I feel I have a deeper relationship with Oliver and Bella now. 

I'm working on the return process now and will keep you updated on how that goes. 

[tautech]

Tim, your reply shows common sense. 
It's not common!

[dannyf]

I am happy that they came through for you. They did the right thing.

[c4757p]

I agree, they did the right thing. The initial reaction was shitty, but all companies do shitty things from time to time. Better companies can be poked and prodded into correcting them.

Agilent's back off my shit list... for now.

[Orange]

I just wonder if posting all your emails here in this public forum has influenced their decision, after all it is a pretty embarrassing situation for Agilent to deal with their customers like they did with you.

Hopefully other people get better treatment from Agilent.

[dannyf]

I just wonder if posting all your emails here in this public forum has influenced their decision,

It shouldn't but I hope so.

If the OP just posted the words, it is hard for a bystander like us to know how true his story is. Posting the images certainly lend a huge amount of credibility to the OP, and if Agilent is watching, puts great pressure on them to act equitably.

[VK5RC]

Great to see a good outcome, bit messy though.
Just before this post I paid for the Agilent software bundle for my DSOX3024, it arrived after your post, as I loaded it on EVERYTHING i had was crossed, fingers, toes and eyes, hoping not to brick it. All went well here.
I have not had any hassles with the Agilent agent in South Australia, Trio test & Measurement.

[zapta]

I agree, they did the right thing. The initial reaction was shitty, but all companies do shitty things from time to time. Better companies can be poked and prodded into correcting them.

You don't really know if they corrected it. Possibly they just had an exception for your case for the PR value and leave general procedures just the same.

I had it once with an Ebay seller. He had a very misleading picture of the product. When I gave him negative feedback he tried to buy me out but did not fix the picture. If you really want to know, ask them, what have they changed in their general procedures and will other people will get the same outcome without the public shaming.

[bsgd]

Tim,

I've been reading this thread for like an hour and I'm glad to know Agilent finally agreed to give you a replacement, though I must admit that I expected them to fix your problem right away. I would be pretty pissed to get such replies from a company like Agilent.

This whole problem you had really surprises me. About a year ago my second hand U3606 failed during a firmware upgrade. I called Agilent here in Brazil and they replaced my meter strayight away, no questions asked. The replacement had to be imported form the US and since we have a very slow customs here, it took more than 30 days to arrive, but that ain't Agilent's fault.

Anyway, I'm glad to know you're happy with the outcome.

[Orange]

I just got this spam from Agilent

[tsmith35]

I just got this spam from Agilent

Classic!

[nowlan]

"One year after redefining the industry standard, Agilent remains the only Test&Measturement company offering all customers a free 3-year warranty on all instruments worldwide. "

Not true, hameg matched this in May.
http://blog.hameg.com/?p=1867

[TimothySwieter]

Makes me chuckle!

As an updated to my saga here.

Shortly after my last post, Agilent collected my home information.  A couple days later a DHL courier arrived to collect the meter.  I didn't have to package it or anything, just sign and double check the serial number.  I was informed I should get my replacement unit in 7 to 14 days.  So, hopefully soon.  I'll let you know how that goes. 

[nixxon]

Well guys - thank you for the support.  My faith and pleasure of working with Agilent has been restored!!  They have agreed to replace the meter with the firmware failure.  Bella and Oliver of Agilent came through in resolving this issue.  I am pleased that Agilent has chosen to take the right action here.  I hope a message is also sent to their engineering team that products can be even better if it transfers the firmware to the unit before flashing the internal MCU, thus removing a potential weak link of the transfer software. 

Too bad I have to exchange the unit for the new one, otherwise I'd be up for cracking it open and seeing the internals. 

I'm so thrilled to get a working meter again and to have confidence to keep working with Agilent on future equipment purchases.   

-Tim

So they decided to replace the unit. That is fine. They even approved a 3-year warranty for the unit with the S/N you are returning. When your unit is returned, the 3-year warranty will be of no use for you if a problem should arise in the future.

Now that you get a replacement unit, you should consider paying (if necessary) for the extended waranty for your new (refurbished?) unit (with a different S/N) as well. If you don't, I guess this thread's chapter 2 will begin shortly after you try to update the FW on your new unit using the same equipment that bricked the first unit...

[ErikTheNorwegian]

Well, Lucky that Agilent did solve the case. But Fluke has its problems with firmware to. The Fluke 8846a, has a firmware upgrade, that they refer to several places, but end up on dead links. They removed the upgrade and denied me of having it, saying that i had to send the meter to repairs for the upgrade. Price? 800 dollar plus 25 percent vat...

After a request here on this blog, a kind member had found it on a Tunisian Fluke webpage; they clearly forgot to remove the link.
So Fluke, can also make a very expensive instrument a nightmare for the owner. Why revoke a upgrade?
What harm does it to have the upgrade laying out on the web?



https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/fluke-8846a-anyone-that-got-the-updated-firmware-downloaded/msg395256/#msg395256

[linux-works]

I wonder, at what point will we find firmware for TM on the pirate bay...

if vendors act hostile toward users, this WILL be the result, I predict.

its a shame when hardware vendors don't realize that hardware is where they make their money.

[nanofrog]

its a shame when hardware vendors don't realize that hardware is where they make their money.

I suspect they do, but short-term thinking of broken gear = forces users to purchase replacements/upgrades (increase gross sales). Loss of customers probably doesn't figure into their thinking, or is somehow minimized if it does. 

[ErikTheNorwegian]

I wonder, at what point will we find firmware for TM on the pirate bay...

if vendors act hostile toward users, this WILL be the result, I predict.

its a shame when hardware vendors don't realize that hardware is where they make their money.

I now, dowload everything they have to offer that i maybeen need in the future. When not even Fluke can maintain downloads for even new and current models, i dont trust them to keep the info for the future.
Sadly many japanese companies are very quick to redraw the old uppgrades to outdated models.
But Fluke on a 8846A, top of the line instrument? Thats just sad..

[TimothySwieter]

Hi guys -

This past week I got my replacement meter.  First I got an e-mail stating an DHL tracking number and then the next day the meter arrived.  Looks like it shipped from Singapore to Hong Kong.

The new meter is working just fine, and already has the latest firmware in it.  There is a new serial number on the meter, as to be expected based on the communication with Agilent. There is also a label indicating it was a replacement for a differs serial number.  This label though looks like it could flake off easily with lots of use of the meter.  Also, interestingly enough, there is a "warranty void if removed" sticker over one of the access screws.  I didn't have this on the previous meter.

The package for the meter was beyond excellent.  In fact, it was so good I had trouble getting into it!

Thanks again for the tips and support. 

[Orange]

Also, interestingly enough, there is a "warranty void if removed" sticker over one of the access screws.  I didn't have this on the previous meter.

So now if you blow the internal fuses and you want to replace them your out of warranty ? 

[TimothySwieter]

For this meter, the fuses and batteries are accessible under the same cover plate.  I'm not aware of any other fuses inside. 

[rdubelectronic]

I have done the same firmware update as described AND BEFORE I read this.

Meter totally dead only shows "D....", why oh why do they put this on their website.

There is no way to get back tried everything with buttons/battry.
Bluetooth cannot be established anymore.

MY ADVISE: DO NOT UPDATE WITH THIS FIRMWARE YOU WILL LOOSE YOUR EXPENSIVE DMM

[Zbig]

I have managed to brick my unit to the similar state and then un-brick it. But I have consciously went against the manufacturer's advice to use the USB cable and went with the Bluetooth interface so I only have myself to blame, I guess. Anyway, perhaps this could be helpful in a case of failed update via the cable as well, so there you have it: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/recovering-keysight-u1273a-from-failed-firmware-update/