Feel bad about my Siglent purchase

[LootMaster]

So I bought myself an SDS2352X-E + the MSO option. Its super frikkin late by 2 weeks.

Now I see that some of you A-holes are hacking your SDS2354X from a cheap ass SDS2104X.

I feel offended honestly, that there was not a SDS2354X-E. Cheap economical version.

Why don't you guys just come out and say, heres guaranteed hack for 350 MHz unlocking SDS2104X. Sorry for being sneaky.

I feel bad that my money did not go as high as it could have gotten, seeing that some of you hack without remorse for law as if it did not matter.

Is Siglent gonna give me something free?

[LootMaster]

Tautech?

I'm angry...

[ataradov]

So you bought something without doing prior research?

Possibility of hacks is one of the first thing I lookup when evaluating my options.

[VooDust]

It is hard for beginners. E.g. the used market is flooded with gear at atrocious prices. Only later you realize there's the Rigol DS1054Z, hacked to 350MHz, at a laughable price. Why isn't this higher up there?

Don't be too hard on you.

[Mechatrommer]

thats why google first before buy, today is online shopping with ratings and reviews... pride will lead to regret, regret will lead to suffering, suffering will lead to hate, hate will lead to anger

[2N3055]

Can somebody please delete this topic, title and troll....

[Simon]

Can somebody please delete this topic, title and troll....

Uh, let me think about it.

Well the whole hacking thing depends. It's up to you to do your research. I bought a rigol scope for myself and hacked it. I rarely use it so it's not like I was going to spend more money for functionality I may not use when I do use my scope. On the other hand I made my employer buy the same model but I did not hack it, they can bloody well pay the right price as a business that makes money out of the work and it would void warranty.

No one will come knocking on your door forewarning you about something you are going to buy without even knowing your are going to buy it.

Basically Grow up!

Can't you return it?

[BravoV]

Well deserved ...   

[Elasia]

Can somebody please delete this topic, title and troll....

Uh, let me think about it.

Well the whole hacking thing depends. It's up to you to do your research. I bought a rigol scope for myself and hacked it. I rarely use it so it's not like I was going to spend more money for functionality I may not use when I do use my scope. On the other hand I made my employer buy the same model but I did not hack it, they can bloody well pay the right price as a business that makes money out of the work and it would void warranty.

No one will come knocking on your door forewarning you about something you are going to buy without even knowing your are going to buy it.

Basically Grow up!

Can't you return it?

Pretty much exactly the same here, practically all of my kit i've hacked weather it be keycodes just to unlock whatever for the hell of it or customized firmware.  Now that said, do i expect a warrantee after i modded them? Hell no.. you hack gear, your warrantee is rightfully void (technically some do get away with this if they completely blow up their unit(s) but if the oem finds out.. well forget it)

Now for Simon's second point, I do have a fortune level employer.. they have spent easily 100x the amount I have for my own gear based on my own recommendations.  This is a key reason siglent, rigol, and others ignore hobbyists screwing around with their own kit.  They know full well it will net them more money in the long run.  No business in its right mind, especially ones that are ISO or government inspected, will be using hacked gear.  Main reason?  Valid calibration procedures are required that can be chained back to the NIST, a fair bit of the time that means you are sending a unit back to the mfg.  This is also another good money making opportunity selling after sale services.

[Simon]

We don't calibrate ours, they bought it because I wrote a blunt email explaining that I was not willing to bring my new scope in having just had the last one that cost me even more fail on me and it spent more time at work than with me. I won't give them anything for free in terms of screwing a supplier, they want the kit, they can pay for it. Plus I don't want to be blamed if there are issues as then it would be "well if you had told us for the sum of £100 we would have got the better model with warranty" when I know they would not have when confronted with two prices. 50MHz is fine when all you are doing is looking at a few kHz of PWM.

[tautech]

So I bought myself an SDS2352X-E + the MSO option. Its super frikkin late by 2 weeks.

Now I see that some of you A-holes are hacking your SDS2354X from a cheap ass SDS2104X.

I feel offended honestly, that there was not a SDS2354X-E. Cheap economical version.

Why don't you guys just come out and say, heres guaranteed hack for 350 MHz unlocking SDS2104X. Sorry for being sneaky.

I feel bad that my money did not go as high as it could have gotten, seeing that some of you hack without remorse for law as if it did not matter.

Is Siglent gonna give me something free?

Tautech?

Ya wat ?

I'm angry...

No PM in my inbox asking for advice......hello, am I a mind reader, really ?

SDS2352X-E is a nice little scope, it really is and its little bro the SDS2202X-E can be convinced to think it is one too. 

IMO they were never to release a SDS2354X-E as the cooling challenges for 2x 2GSa/s ADC's and another 28 Mpts memory was to be too much of a challenge in this small form factor whereas not so much for the SDS1104/1204X-E.
Really when you get up there to 300+ MHz you're heading above entry level DSO's to where the SDS2000X Plus range is targeted and they're instrument in an entirely different class with analog capability not just to 350 MHz but 500 MHz !

Don't feel bad about a SDS2352X-E if it meets your needs and BTW it comes with quite nice 350 MHz rated probes.

[BravoV]

Tautech?

Ya wat ?

I'm angry...

No PM in my inbox asking for advice......hello, am I a mind reader, really ?

Tautech is known to be friendly when someone queries on Siglent, pretty sure he will entertain wholeheartedly, even thru PM. 

In this case, its laziness, even just asking in forum or thru PM, and also itchy finger on clicking the buy button. 

[tv84]

Only later you realize there's the Rigol DS1054Z, hacked to 350MHz, at a laughable price. Why isn't this higher up there?

Please, not this BS once again!

Tautech is known to be friendly when someone queries on Siglent

And friendlier when someone queries on other brands.     

[Elasia]

We don't calibrate ours, they bought it because I wrote a blunt email explaining that I was not willing to bring my new scope in having just had the last one that cost me even more fail on me and it spent more time at work than with me. I won't give them anything for free in terms of screwing a supplier, they want the kit, they can pay for it. Plus I don't want to be blamed if there are issues as then it would be "well if you had told us for the sum of £100 we would have got the better model with warranty" when I know they would not have when confronted with two prices. 50MHz is fine when all you are doing is looking at a few kHz of PWM.

Yeah, 98% of the time im in the same boat..  hard to justify a lot of bandwidth less you are actually using it.  We got kit in our production line that does automated testing, its prod so it gets calibrated.

[Elasia]

Only later you realize there's the Rigol DS1054Z, hacked to 350MHz, at a laughable price. Why isn't this higher up there?

Please, not this BS once again!

Tautech is known to be friendly when someone queries on Siglent

And friendlier when someone queries on other brands.     

Tautech in action..   

[Simon]

We don't calibrate ours, they bought it because I wrote a blunt email explaining that I was not willing to bring my new scope in having just had the last one that cost me even more fail on me and it spent more time at work than with me. I won't give them anything for free in terms of screwing a supplier, they want the kit, they can pay for it. Plus I don't want to be blamed if there are issues as then it would be "well if you had told us for the sum of £100 we would have got the better model with warranty" when I know they would not have when confronted with two prices. 50MHz is fine when all you are doing is looking at a few kHz of PWM.

Yeah, 98% of the time im in the same boat..  hard to justify a lot of bandwidth less you are actually using it.  We got kit in our production line that does automated testing, its prod so it gets calibrated.

For end of line testing I got them to buy a USB picoscope because I can save the setup and tell them to just launch that and they can look at the test procedure and compare the picture to what they are getting as it's the same V/div, s/div and the same measurements come up on the screen.

[MadTux]

Well, some people spend lots of money a few years ago for computers you can find in the trash nowadays.
Why couldn't these evil people trash their 'puters any sooner, would have saved me lots of money

[LootMaster]

Hey...

Heres the big

SDS2104X Plus with a little side job. 1399$ USD

or

SDS2352X-E + MSO options and no little side job. 1277$ USD

[Mechatrommer]

Only later you realize there's the Rigol DS1054Z, hacked to 350MHz, at a laughable price. Why isn't this higher up there?

Please, not this BS once again!

Only later you realize there's the Rigol DS1054Z, hacked to 350MHz, at a laughable price.

[radiolistener]

Now I see that some of you A-holes are hacking your SDS2354X from a cheap ass SDS2104X.

When you buying cheap version to hack it. There is a big chance, that you will get worse result than original unhacked version.

Just because any factory has quality control check. And when some device doesn't pass quality check due to a slightly out of spec parameters they can sell it as lower grade version.

So, hacked SDS2104X is not equals to original SDS2354X from a factory. The difference is hidden in hardware frontend (ADC, amplifiers, etc). At a glance it looks exactly the same, because it running the same software. But they are not. Because low grade model may use worse components quality (factory rejected)

It may use exactly the same chip as a top-level device model, but it was rejected on the factory due to a little worse parameters. Both chips may be from the same package, with the same part number. Both can meet chip specification. But cheap model will have a little worse parameters.

[ataradov]

So, hacked SDS2104X is not equals to original SDS2354X from a factory. The difference is hidden in hardware frontend (ADC, amplifiers, etc). At a glance it looks exactly the same, because it running the same software. But they are not. Because low grade model may use worse components quality (factory rejected)

This would be true if they did not sell you unlock key to later unlock the higher end features.

[LootMaster]

I was about to tell you what Alex just said above...

Isnt it obvious? That its not the case?

[uski]

Now I see that some of you A-holes are hacking your SDS2354X from a cheap ass SDS2104X.

When you buying cheap version to hack it. There is a big chance, that you will get worse result than original unhacked version.

Just because any factory has quality control check. And when some device doesn't pass quality check due to a slightly out of spec parameters they can sell it as lower grade version.

So, hacked SDS2104X is not equals to original SDS2354X from a factory. The difference is hidden in hardware frontend (ADC, amplifiers, etc). At a glance it looks exactly the same, because it running the same software. But they are not. Because low grade model may use worse components quality (factory rejected)

It may use exactly the same chip as a top-level device model, but it was rejected on the factory due to a little worse parameters. Both chips may be from the same package, with the same part number. Both can meet chip specification. But cheap model will have a little worse parameters.

This is not true when the manufacturer offers the bandwidth upgrade option themselves for all the scopes of a given series, including upgrading the lowest tier model to the highest bandwidth version.
I don't know about Siglent but Rigol definitely offers this capability.

[radiolistener]

This is not true when the manufacturer offers the bandwidth upgrade option themselves for all the scopes of a given series, including upgrading the lowest tier model to the highest bandwidth version.
I don't know about Siglent but Rigol definitely offers this capability.

I don't know about Siglent X-E models. But for Siglent X models they installed hardware capacitor to limit bandwidth. So there is no way to unlock higher bandwidth with no desoldering capacitor in the RF frontend. You can unlock it in software with unofficial patch, but anyway it will be limited by hardware frontend and you will need hardware mod to unlock it completely.

[LootMaster]

This is not true when the manufacturer offers the bandwidth upgrade option themselves for all the scopes of a given series, including upgrading the lowest tier model to the highest bandwidth version.
I don't know about Siglent but Rigol definitely offers this capability.

I don't know about Siglent X-E models. But for Siglent X models they installed hardware capacitor to limit bandwidth. So there is no way to unlock higher bandwidth with no desoldering capacitor in the RF frontend.

WTF??

I thought I understood otherwise, WTF?

[0culus]

The banhammer can't come soon enough for this wanker. 

[tautech]

This is not true when the manufacturer offers the bandwidth upgrade option themselves for all the scopes of a given series, including upgrading the lowest tier model to the highest bandwidth version.
I don't know about Siglent but Rigol definitely offers this capability.

I don't know about Siglent X-E models. But for Siglent X models they installed hardware capacitor to limit bandwidth. So there is no way to unlock higher bandwidth with no desoldering capacitor in the RF frontend.

The DSO in question is SDS2104X Plus and there certainly is a optional BW upgrade path for them.
100-200 MHz, 200-350 MHz and 350-500 MHz.

X-E models don't have an official BW upgrade path instead they need be hacked.....100-200 MHz or 200-350 MHz depending on the X-E series.
SDS2000X series also never offered a BW upgrade path.

[LootMaster]

OK then, I guess the Choice has been narrowed down.

I cant touch the sticker.

SDS2352 it will remain.

MSO5074...nope... I cant entertain encouraging the company that started the no screwdriver hackfest we see today.

I'd rather it be a 500$ increase and we all get treated the same.

No more BW versions !!!

[radiolistener]

I thought I understood otherwise, WTF?

Siglent X-E scope has official bandwidth unlock keys? I didn't follow Siglent topic since I have old X model.

But for X model there is need to remove capacitor to unlock bandwidth. If you unlock it in software, the hardware will be still limited.


For example, you can see such capacitor on the right side of AD8370 chip:

[tautech]

I thought I understood otherwise, WTF?

Siglent X-E scope has official bandwidth unlock keys?

No X-E don't, no official BW upgrade path.

I didn't follow Siglent topic since I have old X model.

But for X model there is need to remove capacitor to unlock bandwidth. If you unlock it in software, the hardware will be still limited.

Correct.

[LootMaster]

Aaaaa…

Anyways, I see myself using a 4 channel scope like this more than an MSO.

With 4 channels I wont really need the MSO, to debug logic.

But once I'm done with the convulsions that will follow this massive purchase, maybe I'll be up for an MSO, and 2x 350mhz probes.

Now if the triggers are as smart, maybe all logical debugging can be done with a 4 channel.

But anything with a motor or tesla  coils weird stuff I like to study is limited with 2 channels + MSO.

While 4 channels, I can overlap on a lot of logic troubleshooting... Yeah ok the memory depth will be eaten quick, but I got smart triggers.

Choices choices....

[tautech]

While 4 channels, I can overlap on a lot of logic troubleshooting... Yeah ok the memory depth will be eaten quick, but I got smart triggers.

Choices choices....

SDS2104X Plus.....best in class 200 Mpts mem depth.....actually 200*2, 200 Mpts for each ADC.
Proven ~185 MHz -3dB BW point.

[LootMaster]

Tautech Tautech…

Always has good arguments to make it clear.

But I wanna Emphasize an important aspect.

Nerd satisfaction: Big ass touch screen Ipad oscilloscope... Now come on.

[tautech]

Tautech Tautech…

Always has good arguments to make it clear.

But I wanna Emphasize an important aspect.

Nerd satisfaction: Big ass touch screen Ipad oscilloscope... Now come on.

Take your pick for user input.....controls, mouse or touch.....or use all 3 as many that have these do.

[uski]

MSO5074...nope... I cant entertain encouraging the company that started the no screwdriver hackfest we see today.

Rigol has been founded in 1998. Hacks were discussed decades before that, for instance with CB radios that could be unlocked to communicate to more channels, and that were designed to be capable of doing it, but locked for regulatory purposes.

The balance between hardware and software has shifted in the past few years, with a bigger part of the behavior of the products defined in software, so what was previously artificial limitations in hardware now have shifted to artificial limitations in software. But it is fundamentally the same thing, just an artificial limitation, and there is nothing new to this.

You really lack perspective.

PS: Going to make you angry but I have personally designed hardware which was limited in software for certain markets. And there were good reasons to that. It's not because you can't understand them or that you don't like this in your very own world that it is not a sound decision that can benefit everyone.

[LootMaster]

If you wanna know if both situations are equivalent in terms of ethics.

Use the following situation: A young engineer/repairman/maker/CEO buys the scope to use it in the production cycle of w/e things he needs to inspect.

He sees the price and determines his needs and shells out the 2999$.

Now 2 weeks later, he sees some other guy with the same thing, but he got it for 1400$. And absolutely no consequence will arise.

Now how does young engineer/repairman/maker/CEO feel? If he don't feel pissed off out of his mind, situation is different.

In your situation, I imagine myself feeling nothing.

You=wrong... You lack perspective.

I have no beef with hacking per say, I have beef with being the dumb fuck who gets caught in this game. And I sympathize with any man who  gets caught.

[ataradov]

I bought a scope today, and tomorrow the company came out with the new model and dropped the price on the old one. Should I feel bad?

Things change. Sometimes they change in a span of a week.

If you have any clue at all, you would figure out that there may be a hack, since as it has been pointed out, people hacked things since before we were born.

But based on your posts, I feel like arguing here is totally useless. You do you.

[LootMaster]

Those hacks required some higher knowledge... Here? What have they earned more than the guy who got caught? They saw the thread so they must know better?

If you don't need to open it, its pretty much on purpose... Lets leave it at that. I don't wanna argue.. I feel bad for the guy who agrees to play these games of no consequence.

I laught when I see people compare old things prior to internet vs the *hacking* that I see in the thread.

Come on people... Nobody wants to feel disgusted like I described above, its sickening.

[Bud]

Life is too short to kill yourself worrying about a few dollars. OP save yourself a heart attack, just move on with your life.

[ataradov]

People changed clock multiplier as early as 486 machines in the BIOS. No special knowledge.

Prior to the Internet hardware hacks were published in magazines, no need for special knowledge, just a magazine subscription or even library access.

I understand you are disappointed, but it it entirely your fault. You should have checked for all the possibilities before buying anything.

Also, I assure you no CEO cares about $2000 "lost" on non-hacked equipment. It is not a thing that happens.

The amounts of money you save by hacking and the risks you take only make it attractive to hobbyists.

[LootMaster]

Have not received anything yet. Its all up for grabs.

Those elements you cite Alex were probably fringe.

Tell me honestly now... If this 2 way phenomenon is fringe. Or more than 50% ?

[ataradov]

I don't understand what you mean by "fringe". The whole concept of having a scope is fringe to majority of people on the planet.

Among people that owned technology it was pretty common to find ways to improve it. Electronics is a niche hobby. And magazines had entire sections dedicated to this kind of stuff.

In many cases it was not unlocking what manufacturer has locked out, but simply improving what manufacturer missed.

Overclocking CPUs is a pretty common thing now, it was common back then. It was more common as computers were a specialty tool. Now that they became a disposable consumer item that anyone can get, overclocking rate dropped. But the same type of people (enthusiasts) that were overclocking back then, still overclock now.

[LootMaster]

People changed clock multiplier as early as 486 machines in the BIOS. No special knowledge.

Prior to the Internet hardware hacks were published in magazines, no need for special knowledge, just a magazine subscription or even library access.

I understand you are disappointed, but it it entirely your fault. You should have checked for all the possibilities before buying anything.

Also, I assure you no CEO cares about $2000 "lost" on non-hacked equipment. It is not a thing that happens.

The amounts of money you save by hacking and the risks you take only make it attractive to hobbyists.

What are those risks now that precedents were set?

Havent we reached the point where series are sold/should be sold based off their memory and measurement capabilities? Ease of use?

Why is BW still an issue? You either need it or you don't really. Now if you cant afford and jump higher for *code* for the big BW you can always go for lower memory and features???...hmmm???

[ataradov]

What are those risks now that precedents were set?

Depends on the company. Many will need traceable hardware/software for certification reasons. They will also need calibration certificates and updating the options automatically invalidates previous calibration. And the cost of that may be more than the cost of the upgrade.

Business and hobby uses are very different. For a business the primary expense is payroll in most cases. If the scope is "upgraded" and an engineer has to spend time second guessing if observed signals are real or the results of an upgrade, then the price of that upgrade will be quickly overshadowed by the engineer's salary.

As a hobbyist you are not paying yourself a salary for the time you mess with the equipment.

Havent we reached the point where series are sold/should be sold based off their memory and measurement capabilities? Ease of use?

That is up to marketing departments to decide what we have reached and what we have not. Your job is to pick from what is available on the market.

[LootMaster]

Ok Alex.

If its not billionaire bay then 2000$ is trash and I should be richer, and as a slave to the mighty oscilloscope conglomerate, its my duty to suck up the massive financial loss that will be result of buying that 2354 oscilloscope because my precious engineer will be confused less ...

Even tho, I feel the urge and need to purchase this for my own needs and thus tormented by choices... It would be my job, to pay more because I am ignorant.

Those who are not ignorant, bless them by a paper that defends you for the eventual lack of consequence and the millivolt accuracy.

My sincerest apology, you win this argument.

[Mechatrommer]

I bought a scope today, and tomorrow the company came out with the new model and dropped the price on the old one. Should I feel bad?
Things change. Sometimes they change in a span of a week.

bad analogy! here is better.... I bought a scope today, and tomorrow i realize there is a store selling the same thing and more powerful at half or less the price since many years ago. Should I feel bad? I'm stupid toxic or just blame the store that sells cheaper because its "unethical" suit yourself pick whatever you want to blame except yourself.

[mawyatt]

I believe Rigol, Siglent and others like them know about these "hacks" and in fact are subtly encouraging it

Advertising is expensive and by allowing a "hack" to a higher level of performance/features, but making it not too easy, they have cleverly created a opportunity for technical savvy folks, like the one's here, to openly discuss this capability and convey the means to so. This improves the awareness of technical folks that may not have heard of them, that may be employed in electronics, and may recommend them to the firms they are employed with.

Very clever business model IMO

In my case I've retired from the Chief Scientist/Engineer position, Adjunct Prof, Consultant, IC design, over 30 patents issued and a career that was over 50 years (been around advanced R&D electronics a long time). I had never heard of Siglent nor Rigol, have always made decisions to purchase TE that was HP, Agilent, Keysight, Tektronix and a few R&S instruments. So when I retired and wanted to still tinker around I got a couple Tek 2465 scopes and a couple 34401A DMMs off eBay, and fixed them up. Later I needed to cal the 34401As and decided to get a Keysight 34465A DMM since this would be a known reference source, then realized I needed a DSO and began following all the posts here. After some time and reading thousands of posts I decided on a DSO, which was hacked and enabled by the help of folks here. This lead to the purchase of an AWG, then a Spectrum Analyzer, all "hacked" with the help of folks here Do I feel guilty, hell no 

I paid for everything out of pocket, so no biased reviews, Siglent paid me nothing, and this detailed experience has made such an impression that I would highly recommend them to anyone without hesitation   If Siglent had hired me as a consultant, they would have paid way more than the cost of this equipment.

Just count the number of threads and posts (also other sites) that are related to "hacking" this equipment, then ask yourself what this level of exposure would have cost utilizing conventional advertising, then estimate the "lost revenue" that would have been created by not allowing "hacking". Now consider the direct recommendation benefits to higher level companies, which they likely could not penetrate because of lack of exposure, like myself that just purchased Keysight, Tektronix or R&S gear. Sure they aren't going to bump these tried and true sources for the higher end gear, but likely may get their "foot in the door" at a lower level general purpose usage platform with the help of some employee that has some home gear that was "hacked"

This is a clever business model, that is obviously working well for them 

Best,

[Simon]

i think it was an accidental model though that was discovered with the first Rigol scope that then became so popular that it set the scene for all that was to come in that market segment.

[Simon]

We also forget so easily that those first Rigol scopes ran 40MHz ADC's at 100MHz by design to cut costs.

[mawyatt]

That makes sense being an accidental discovery, as the "allow to be hacked" business model would have been hard to sell without some prior evidence.

Rigol over-clocked the ADC by 2.5X, that must have produced hideous results 

What ADC did they use?

Best,

[Simon]

That makes sense being an accidental discovery, as the "allow to be hacked" business model would have been hard to sell without some prior evidence.

Rigol over-clocked the ADC by 2.5X, that must have produced hideous results 

What ADC did they use?

Best,

They were clearly new to the market and hit on this idea of end of line model programming as it was neat and easy and obviously never thought that someone would discover it so never locked it. I mean they were selling the exact same hardware, both 50MHz and 100MHz were 1GS/s.

I can't remember the details but when Dave did a tear down he looked up the part numbers and they were 40MHz but running obviously at 100MHz each as there were 10 interleaved to get the 1GHz sample rate.

[Bud]

Claims of such "business model" do not hold water. What do you think the manufacturing documentation would like? Would it have documents stating "We shall design with making hacks available ! ". Would engineering resources be assigned to design hackability into the process? Would a special Quality Assurance team exist to test such "features" ? This is laughable.

[bc888]

Sorry to read of your anger, but it seems that this would fall into the "Act in Haste, Repent in Leisure" category where you get to learn a lesson most of us have already learned (often the hard way as well).  It's a good lesson and thank you for sharing it. At least you didn't learn it with a car or a house where the ramifications could be super serious for you.

Take care.

[Mechatrommer]

That makes sense being an accidental discovery.. as the "allow to be hacked" business model would have been hard to sell without some prior evidence.

i have a feeling its not. after that, there's riglol out from no where.

Rigol over-clocked the ADC by 2.5X, that must have produced hideous results 
What ADC did they use?

you were not around were you? its enough to make hobbiests and people like Dave happy. what ADC used you can dig this forum. that day was the day like today when NanoVNA enter the VNA market. i bought $2K VNA from China about 2 years ago, and now we have $50 of the same from China too, should i feel bad? what do you think a VNA priced before i bought mine? before China make production? before that hobbiests can only dream. if talk about ethical, we should all buy Tektronix, Keysight, R&S, Lecroy or Anritsu.. did you follow some price trend of T&M equipments before and after China invasion? DMM? DSO? VNA? Trump did..

[Simon]

Claims of such "business model" do not hold water. What do you think the manufacturing documentation would like? Would it have documents stating "We shall design with making hacks available ! ". Would engineering resources be assigned to design hackability into the process? Would a special Quality Assurance team exist to test such "features" ? This is laughable.

Not really and I don't know all the details but I have owned 2 Rigol scopes and hacked both. The early one really looked like they just left a back door open that was a really convenient design feature that allowed them to make the same units and then decide which model to make them. The world discovered it and what I suspect was at first anger at the loss of revenue turned to surprise and realization of what they had unleashed as orders pilled in. There was at the time no option to upgrade through licence purchase as actually telling people that they had paid more money for the same hardware was probably thought to anger people.

My current model came years later. The concept of designing one model to cut manufacturing and stocking cots was established and so the official upgrade via licence code was introduced as it meant people may buy the base model and then be willing to pay more. It removed the need to hack for people who genuinely wanted to upgrade later.

But oddly enough getting access to the codes is very easy. i don't know how these were "leaked" or discovered but Rigol have made no attempt to get rid of websites that blatantly give away access to advanced features so it can be argued that they close an eye to it knowing that overall it generates more sales.

[Simon]

My basic understanding of ADC is that it's about being able to sample 0V and then 5V and then 0V with the sample hold circuit achieving the new voltage fast enough. The 100MHz band width is for a sine wave. so how much does the voltage actually change from any one sample to another that at most is 10% of the sine wave. As the frequency comes down the sample to sample voltage change is really small.

[mawyatt]

Claims of such "business model" do not hold water. What do you think the manufacturing documentation would like? Would it have documents stating "We shall design with making hacks available ! ". Would engineering resources be assigned to design hackability into the process? Would a special Quality Assurance team exist to test such "features" ? This is laughable.

Serious doubt any engineering resources were utilized to make the device hackable, just the contrary, you would need to spend resources to make it difficult to hack! So guess the laugh is on you 

Best,

[mawyatt]

Rigol over-clocked the ADC by 2.5X, that must have produced hideous results 
What ADC did they use?

you were not around were you? its enough to make hobbiests and people like Dave happy. what ADC used you can dig this forum.

I was not aware of Rigol until this year, or any of the these overseas type TE suppliers, as I've stated all the equipment we had and purchased was usually HP/Agilent/Keysight, Tektronix and R&S.

Finding a design that overclocked an ADC by 2.5X is just bad design practice for any product that sold to the public, unless there was some "special" feature of this ADC that nobody knew about that allowed this overclocking without disastrous results, why I asked what ADC this was! Every ADC I worked with or designed has had very bad behavior when clocking well past the design limit, from becoming non-monotonic, to missing bits, to locking up then periodically unlocking/relocking, massive non-linearities and so on, not something you want identified as "your" design in a product sold to the public, unless maybe it's a toy!!

that day was the day like today when NanoVNA enter the VNA market. i bought $2K VNA from China about 2 years ago, and now we have $50 of the same from China too, should i feel bad? what do you think a VNA priced before i bought mine? before China make production? before that hobbiests can only dream. if talk about ethical, we should all buy Tektronix, Keysight, R&S, Lecroy or Anritsu.. did you follow some price trend of T&M equipments before and after China invasion? DMM? DSO? VNA? Trump did..

You could have always purchased a used device and repaired/refurbished it like I did with a pair of Tektronix 2465 scope and a HP34401A and Agilent 34401A DMM. These didn't cost much and are still quite good instruments, even by todays standards. Agree most of the early TE stuff from China is in the "toy" category, and they have improved considerably, my 3 Siglent instruments are very nice and a great value.

A lot has to do with what you use the equipment for, a hobby or doing more serious work. If you were in the IC design sector like I was before retiring, a single IC design when you are pushing the State of The Art Performance can easily cost well over $10M for a test single fabrication run, then likely the TE will be Keysight, Tektronix, and R&S. A $100K DSO isn't much considering the cost of some IC developments, however if you are a hobbiest then the DSO will likely be much lower $ as will the DSO performance.   

Best,

[Mechatrommer]

Finding a design that overclocked an ADC by 2.5X is just bad design practice for any product that sold to the public, unless there was some "special" feature of this ADC that nobody knew about that allowed this overclocking without disastrous results, why I asked what ADC this was!

iirc its not 2.5X overclocked. there are 4x 200MSps ADC interleaved to get 1GSps, so each ADC clock is 250MSps, its only running 125%.. we cant see any bad signal shape out of it, either they are still within spec margin or Rigol knew some trick how to get around them. my DS1052E is still here doing fine, LCD is the one that is broken many months ago. i wont hesitate to buy used T&M if the price between new vs used is far off. i purchased a 15yrs old Lecroy DSO that otherwise will be priced 20X or more if new today.

[tautech]

I don't know how these were "leaked" or discovered but Rigol have made no attempt to get rid of websites that blatantly give away access to advanced features so it can be argued that they close an eye to it knowing that overall it generates more sales.

By tenacious code analysts present on this forum.

Their beavering away developed riglol and rigup and yet even more scripts recently for some series the Siglent range. There's lots of instrument investigations being pursued behind closed doors that the observant member can spot.

[LootMaster]

I put the blame straight on the foot of Siglent.

They missed the opportunity for an sds2354X-E @ 999 or 1100 $

Good honest transaction, will pay for MSO keygen and HW, no problem.

I needed THAT, but I'll take the luxury of new models. For an increment.

Caught me in the no man land. Pushed me to the edge. I don't care anymore, I'm like a rabid animal....I need MY GEAR.

[ataradov]

Dude, are you ok? You seem to blame everyone but yourself. This is not a good trait to have.

[LootMaster]

Awww not again.

The blame for what?

More features for me that I don't really need but will take to feel like a good nerd then move on.

More money for them to continue on and make new things... That I wont buy as I'll try to maintain this baby forever and ever like Mr Carlson's lab.

Hmmm... Maybe just a Power supply and DMM.

Change the caps every 5 years, maintain all buttons and blow it every year.

[mawyatt]

Finding a design that overclocked an ADC by 2.5X is just bad design practice for any product that sold to the public, unless there was some "special" feature of this ADC that nobody knew about that allowed this overclocking without disastrous results, why I asked what ADC this was!

iirc its not 2.5X overclocked. there are 4x 200MSps ADC interleaved to get 1GSps, so each ADC clock is 250MSps, its only running 125%.. we cant see any bad signal shape out of it, either they are still within spec margin or Rigol knew some trick how to get around them. my DS1052E is still here doing fine, LCD is the one that is broken many months ago. i wont hesitate to buy used T&M if the price between new vs used is far off. i purchased a 15yrs old Lecroy DSO that otherwise will be priced 20X or more if new today.

See #49 on previous page.

"We also forget so easily that those first Rigol scopes ran 40MHz ADC's at 100MHz by design to cut costs."


Some of the old LeCroy were rebadged Siglents,  like the Waverunner 2032.

Best,

[EEVblog]

i think it was an accidental model though that was discovered with the first Rigol scope that then became so popular that it set the scene for all that was to come in that market segment.

Yep, precisely this.

[rf-loop]

Finding a design that overclocked an ADC by 2.5X is just bad design practice for any product that sold to the public, unless there was some "special" feature of this ADC that nobody knew about that allowed this overclocking without disastrous results, why I asked what ADC this was!

This ADC, widely used by many cheap  scope manufacturers, is AD9288.
It is designed for 100MHz clock. All these versions, 40, 80 and 100MHz are same design, same silicon, same product. There is ONLY  one original AD9288 designed chip.

So, What are these 40MHz (80 and) and   100MHz ADC's.

Analog Devices have designed and manufactured ADC, product AD9288  what is designed for 100Msa/s.

But,  manufacturing process output is some amount of 9288 chips. Still all these are same chips.
But all chips do not meet every single specifications  what are set for 100MSa/s desing.
After they are made they need test. Some chips meet these specs and some not.
Do they throw away these what do not meet specs. No, they sell these.
So there is other specs, for 80Msa/s and for 40MSa/s
Chips what do not meed 100M specs may meet these others specs...  after then most of manufacture process output can sell.
They get -100, -80 and -40 marking.

Most of chips what have -40 mark  works normally in digital side just with 100M clock, even more. But they do not meet AnalogDevices specs for AD9288 -100.   They work but not meet specs.

If now someone set different specs what is enough for his own purposes  he can of course use -40 classified chips with higher freq if they meet his own needs. 

When Rigol or who ever use these they did not sell AD9288-100 chips with 9288-100 specs.  What they sell was and is oscilloscope with they own oscilloscope specs and what is inside oscilloscope is as it is...  they sell whole oscilloscope with this oscilloscope model description and specs  independent of what is inside it. They do not sell capacitors or named AD chips.

They can fill whole internal even with black epoxy. They sell oscilloscope with its specs and promise it meet given specs. This is what buyer buy and nothing else. It can include what ever except illegal forbidden things.



Not so seriously but...

I do not even know if it is soon more wise to make oscilloscope what is just permanently enclosed so that it can not even repair or open. Just if failure inside warranty time then just give new one and destroy failed. This can divide two or three parts, "black box" scope main unit and "black box" control panel and "black box" display unit. Three black boxes connected mechanically together and data bus between them. So no matter how it is done or what components they have used inside,  under clocked or over clocked.   

[mawyatt]

Finding a design that overclocked an ADC by 2.5X is just bad design practice for any product that sold to the public, unless there was some "special" feature of this ADC that nobody knew about that allowed this overclocking without disastrous results, why I asked what ADC this was!

This ADC, widely used by many cheap  scope manufacturers, is AD9288.
It is designed for 100MHz clock. All these versions, 40, 80 and 100MHz are same design, same silicon, same product. There is ONLY  one original AD9288 designed chip.

So, What are these 40MHz (80 and) and   100MHz ADC's.

Analog Devices have designed and manufactured ADC, product AD9288  what is designed for 100Msa/s.

This is what I was looking for, Rigol used the AD9288. That's an old tried and true pipeline CMOS ADC, and yes it is a fundamental 100MHz designed ADC. Today it's highly likely that this has been redesigned with a more modern CMOS process to reduce fabrication costs (smaller die). If you check the price on Digi-Key the 40, 80 and 100MHz versions are the same price which indicates a dominate yield at 100MHz (the die tests are fully automated, so basically all the working die are within 100MHz specs).

So they designed with the AD9288 100MHz ADC and used the 40MHz versions to save cost knowing that the 40MHz version maybe had some spec that wouldn't effect scope operation but wouldn't allow it to be branded by AD as a 100MHz version, so that's the "special feature" I was referring too.

BTW the AD9288 has a pin compatible 10 bit version, wonder if anyone has tried to upgrade the ADC with the 10 bit version? Of course this would be a lot of work, well beyond just replacing the ADC chip, since the firmware would need significant mods to deal with the 10bit ADC outputs.

Anyway, thanks for the identifying the AD9288 as the ADC used.

Best,

[Mechatrommer]

sibling threads...
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feel-good-about-my-siglent-purchase/?topicseen
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feel-medium-about-my-siglent-purchase/?topicseen