Has anyone checked what voltage(s) the internal power supply provides to the rest of the system? I am fairly interested in this model, but I have issues with using Chinese budget power supplies on mains. I am just not comfortable with that. Maybe that upgrading the power supply to something trustworthy could soothe my worries.I just noticed the mechanical switch on the back. The option to switch the unit off properly changes the proposition a little bit, as you can actually turn the supply completely off when you are not around. However, I would still rather see a plug-pack powered device.
Has anyone checked what voltage(s) the internal power supply provides to the rest of the system? I am fairly interested in this model, but I have issues with using Chinese budget power supplies on mains. I am just not comfortable with that. Maybe that upgrading the power supply to something trustworthy could soothe my worries.Going by the teardown video, the PSU looks reasonable and fairly straightforward if you want to replace with your own. Its on its own separate board with lots of extra internal space. Looks like two, maybe three, different output voltages.
If there is no easy way to upgrade the power supply, I might order the competing JDS6600 instead. That uses a 5V plug-pack that is easily swapped for a trustworthy supply.
EDIT: Looking at the video its 6 lines, 2 X 5V, 2 X GND, 2 X 12V.Good eye. I looked for markings on the main board, but missed the voltages on the power board.
Its only my speculation from what I could see on the video. I'll probably order one sooner rather than later and can post up a review... when it arrives.EDIT: Looking at the video its 6 lines, 2 X 5V, 2 X GND, 2 X 12V.Good eye. I looked for markings on the main board, but missed the voltages on the power board.
Those are very convenient voltages. There are plenty of power supplies available with those, including ATX and other PC power supplies. The trick is to find one that fits neatly into that box.
If you hang a while, there will more then likely be another similar unit launched by another company in China (Minghe) that will do away the SMPS and its associated possibility of high voltages on the ground of the BNC and USB sockets by using a 5VDC wall wart to feed the unit. Its smaller less powerful cousin 20Mhz or 25Mhz has been tested and people have noticed tingles when using them. I have a Minghe MHS-5200A that uses the 5vdc wall wart, no problems with that at all.
If you hang a while, there will more then likely be another similar unit launched by another company in China (Minghe) that will do away the SMPS and its associated possibility of high voltages on the ground of the BNC and USB sockets by using a 5VDC wall wart to feed the unit. Its smaller less powerful cousin 20Mhz or 25Mhz has been tested and people have noticed tingles when using them. I have a Minghe MHS-5200A that uses the 5vdc wall wart, no problems with that at all.Most wall-warts have capacitors connected to mains which results in half the mains voltage at the output so that isn't a solution. The best is to fit a ground outlet in the function generator.
Most wall-warts have capacitors connected to mains which results in half the mains voltage at the output so that isn't a solution. The best is to fit a ground outlet in the function generator.This is where my lack of experience shows. You say a wall wart is not an adequate solution?
That's the JDS6600 which has the wall wart, already a thread or two on it in the forum. It appears to be 12 bit rather than 14 and have no modulation capabilities. The internal PSU on the FY6600 seems to have changed a little from the ones used in the FY3224S with at least the inclusion of an X-class cap. But its probably the crappy xformer leaking the AC onto the ground. I like the physical buttons on the JDS.Modulation is also what interests me about the Feeltech. I currently have no use for it, but if history is any indication, I will as soon as I purchase the device without it :D
Like Nitco said most cheap and certainly the supplied wall wart with the unit I suspect will have the capacitor but you can get better ones that are multi-voltage out ones that normally have a linear power supply, they will be larger and heavier and considerably more expensive but should well worth it for the piece of mind alone.I thought he didn't consider it to be a solution because a wall wart leaves the device floating. Guess I was wrong :)
Someone should mention that unmodified, the "ground" connection on the BNCs on he older FY32xx carry leakage voltages high enough to damage delicate components many times over, but at low current.
So one has to be careful to always ground it - by means of the shield of the BNCs on the back or similar, when its in use, and unplug it when it isn't.
How much more would it have cost them to do that right?
The leakage current problem is not so much about an internal or external (wall wart) power supply. It is more about switched mode power supply not using PE or a classical transformer. To meet EMI regulations a SMPS essentially needs the class y capacitor from the output to an RF ground. With a class II supply (using only 2 wires) there are usually 2 Y capacitors towards both sides of the supply and thus half the mains voltage when measured with a high impedance meter. This applies to the cheap internal supply and most SMPS based wall warts. Most instruments should survive the small voltage spikes of the 5 nF (or so) Y cap.
A way around this would be using a supply with a classical transformer or a SMPS with a third wire (PE). The PE connection could be used for a direct connection the GND (e.g. BNC) or just for the y capacitor. So ideally they would have 2 class Y caps from the power pin to warts a PE connection and then a 3rd y cap (and maybe a resistor in the M Ohms range) to the output.
A way around this would be using a supply with a classical transformer or a SMPS with a third wire (PE). The PE connection could be used for a direct connection the GND (e.g. BNC) or just for the y capacitor. So ideally they would have 2 class Y caps from the power pin to warts a PE connection and then a 3rd y cap (and maybe a resistor in the M Ohms range) to the output.I found this power supply. Even though it is obviously switching and cheap, it does have a third prong and does come from a reputable source. I was suprised the shipping does not kill it either.
So this is the one to get, aside from the ground concern? What is different about the 60M version?[/]I am curious about the differences between the versions too and whether they are actually different, or just firmware limited.
I might hack the case to install a 3-prong receptacle and set up a grounding circuit inside the unit since there is so much room.
Is there an English language review? Dave?
A way around this would be using a supply with a classical transformer or a SMPS with a third wire (PE). The PE connection could be used for a direct connection the GND (e.g. BNC) or just for the y capacitor. So ideally they would have 2 class Y caps from the power pin to warts a PE connection and then a 3rd y cap (and maybe a resistor in the M Ohms range) to the output.I found this power supply. Even though it is obviously switching and cheap, it does have a third prong and does come from a reputable source. I was suprised the shipping does not kill it either.
https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11296 (https://www.sparkfun.com/products/11296)So this is the one to get, aside from the ground concern? What is different about the 60M version?[/]I am curious about the differences between the versions too and whether they are actually different, or just firmware limited.
I might hack the case to install a 3-prong receptacle and set up a grounding circuit inside the unit since there is so much room.
Is there an English language review? Dave?
Dave seems to be quite harsh on anything cheap and Chinese, so I do not expect a recommendation from him.
I was wondering if you traded resolution for frequency or some other function. I did look at some of the used name brand and did notice how quick it gets expensive.Same resolution of 1uHz across the board. The only other limitation is the 15MHz unit is restricted to a 15Mhz square as well as sine wave. I think the 30 or 50MHz units are the best value.
I was wondering if you traded resolution for frequency or some other function. I did look at some of the used name brand and did notice how quick it gets expensive.To some extent this might be true, I have the MHS 5200A version which is 25Mhz and if you look on here and you tube there are plenty of reports and reviews basically slagging it off as it having poor square waves at 25Mhz they say it looked more like sine waves, also stating that it claimed to be capable of 20Vpp but couldn't deliver etc. But in reality, checking the manual reveals the following:-
No, what is limiting the the maximum output voltage is the slew rate of the amplifier stage driving the output. 20Vpp @12MHz is quite a lot already.I was wondering if you traded resolution for frequency or some other function. I did look at some of the used name brand and did notice how quick it gets expensive.To some extent this might be true, I have the MHS 5200A version which is 25Mhz and if you look on here and you tube there are plenty of reports and reviews basically slagging it off as it having poor square waves at 25Mhz they say it looked more like sine waves, also stating that it claimed to be capable of 20Vpp but couldn't deliver etc. But in reality, checking the manual reveals the following:-
Sine wave is the only one to go the 25Mhz, all others, Sq, Saw Tooth and Arbitrary waves are up to 6Mhz. output is indeed 20Vpp on all waves up to 12Mhz and after it drops down to 15Vpp.
This I suspect is really a function of the limited supply coming from the built in SMPS, maybe replacing this with a linear power supply may lift this.
One of the limitations to this unit, suffered by many others I am sure, is that it supports a 20Vpp output only to 10MHz, then 10Vpp to 20MHz and then 5Vpp thereafter. As noted before, this is likely a limitation of the output amplifier. I would suggest buyers RTFM before purchase to know exactly the limitations here.That's common amongst these cheap units, but if it is properly and accurately specified, there is no problem.
My FY6600 BNC-ground to Earth-ground Voltage is 94 Volt.That's what I was afraid of. I'm kind of glad I didn't pull the trigger on this one. With all the extra fiddling and hours measuring and fixing things involved, buying a 'real' unit isn't that much more expensive.
Zing zing zing, not happy about it.
Will have a look for a cheap 30VA isolation transformer.
I don't know what your hourly rate is but putting a IEC socket with earth in and connecting the earth to the 0V of the power supply takes about half an hour. I know many people like to turn this into a big project but that is not necessary at all.My FY6600 BNC-ground to Earth-ground Voltage is 94 Volt.That's what I was afraid of. I'm kind of glad I didn't pull the trigger on this one. With all the extra fiddling and hours measuring and fixing things involved, buying a 'real' unit isn't that much more expensive.
Zing zing zing, not happy about it.
Will have a look for a cheap 30VA isolation transformer.
I don't know what your hourly rate is but putting a IEC socket with earth in and connecting the earth to the 0V of the power supply takes about half an hour. I know many people like to turn this into a big project but that is not necessary at all.Just talking about it here has cost me more than half an hour, so that ship has sailed :D Doing research on the construction and parts that have to be ordered, the costs of the parts, putting the parts in and testing whether the problem has been adequately solved all add up. That's probably more than an evening of work. I tend to share your optimistic judgement of project times, and it somehow never seems to pan out.
Well I already upgraded a FY3000S series so I know it is half an hour of work. And what is difficult about ordering an IEC inlet and a piece of wire (if you don't have these already)?I don't know what your hourly rate is but putting a IEC socket with earth in and connecting the earth to the 0V of the power supply takes about half an hour. I know many people like to turn this into a big project but that is not necessary at all.That's probably more than an evening of work. I tend to share your optimistic judgement of project times, and it somehow never seems to pan out.
Well I already upgraded a FY3000S series so I know it is half an hour of work. And what is difficult about ordering an IEC inlet and a piece of wire (if you don't have these already)?I don't know what your hourly rate is but putting a IEC socket with earth in and connecting the earth to the 0V of the power supply takes about half an hour. I know many people like to turn this into a big project but that is not necessary at all.That's probably more than an evening of work. I tend to share your optimistic judgement of project times, and it somehow never seems to pan out.
Direct connection. The Y cap is already in the power supply. The problem is the leakage current caused by the mains filter.Did you use a Y cap or just a direct connection?Well I already upgraded a FY3000S series so I know it is half an hour of work. And what is difficult about ordering an IEC inlet and a piece of wire (if you don't have these already)?I don't know what your hourly rate is but putting a IEC socket with earth in and connecting the earth to the 0V of the power supply takes about half an hour. I know many people like to turn this into a big project but that is not necessary at all.That's probably more than an evening of work. I tend to share your optimistic judgement of project times, and it somehow never seems to pan out.
First of all...
First of all...
Is this the "real" FeelTech?
First of all, in the absence of the introduction of the ground wire of the two-wire plug of the switching power supply system will have such a situation.Test equipment should not have this problem. The leakage current is big enoug to destroy a circuit so it is very bad!
In order to suppress common mode interference, the switching power supply in the design, the "safety capacitor" will be between the "LG / NG" (safety capacitor is used for such occasions, even if the capacitor fails, will not lead to electric shock, so the secondary side of the switching power supply "ground" is equivalent to the midpoint of the AC voltage, so you measured 110V voltage. But this does not mean there will be security risks, after all, the capacitance capacity of only 1000pf.
If you are still worried about its leakage, then the correct way is to measure its DC leakage resistance, the use of insulation tester is the most effective way
That's great! Welcome to the forum. :-+There is no online upgrade function, if there is an error, can only contact the dealer to replace, we repair and upgrade, but FY6600 after the product we will add online upgrade function.
Since you're here, if there is a way to update the firmware in the FY3224S, can you post that info in the FY3224S thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy3224s-24mhz-2-channel-dds-aw-function-signal-generator/)? Many have asked about it. Thanks!
Test equipment should not have this problem. The leakage current is big enoug to destroy a circuit so it is very bad!For me, it is the reason not to buy the unit, along with not trusting no Chinese things on mains. If I can use my own plugpack or power supply, I'm game.
-sigh- Your own plugpack will have the same problem if it is a switching one. :palm: And it is probably made in China as well.Test equipment should not have this problem. The leakage current is big enoug to destroy a circuit so it is very bad!For me, it is the reason not to buy the unit, along with not trusting no-Chinese things on mains. If I can use my own plugpack or power supply, I'm game.
-sigh- Your own plugpack will have the same problem if it is a switching one. :palm: And it is probably made in China as well.Note it's a two part remark. One is about not blowing your DUT up. That will not be solved by a switching plugpack, though picking the right power supply might. The second part is about not burning your house down, which, if I have to choose, is my biggest priority.
HiFY6600 User Guidehttps://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3N_NW8vylrmaHFRLXloOVJQYjA/view?usp=sharing (https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B3N_NW8vylrmaHFRLXloOVJQYjA/view?usp=sharing)
I have just discovered this forum searching the web for any Feeltech support...
Ordered on eBay, my FY6600 has been delivered today and after checking its CD proved not to be properly burned. Could somebody be so kind and upload somewhere (any cyberlocker You like: https://mega.nz (https://mega.nz) https://mediafire.com (https://mediafire.com) http://catshare.net (http://catshare.net) ....) zipped all its content ??
A link to uploaded CD, posted earlier in this thread is down now.
Many Thanks!
but FY6600 after the product we will add online upgrade function.You mean that FY6600 already has the ability to upgrade firmware online?
Function is not much difference, just fix some of the different languages show the problembut FY6600 after the product we will add online upgrade function.You mean that FY6600 already has the ability to upgrade firmware online?
I'm asking this because some sellers have FW ver. 2.6, others 2.8.
Does it make sense to buy the latest firmware now, if online upgrade going to be available soon?
Could you please describe the difference between 2.6, 2.8, 2.9?
Hi
I have just discovered this forum searching the web for any Feeltech support...
Ordered on eBay, my FY6600 has been delivered today and after checking its CD proved not to be properly burned. .../...
A link to uploaded CD, posted earlier in this thread is down now.
Many Thanks!
Was it always like that, or is that new?New after using 2 times
What exactly do you mean by: "sine is no more displayed on the FY6600 screen like other waveforms"
My interpretation of that phrase is: The little graph/icon of the waveform is gone or messed up.When the sine waveform is selected, the graph on the display is now a flat line :-[
Maybe add a photo? And a snapshot of the actual waveform with peaks?
But if so, I would guess flash/eeprom corruption of the area where waveform 1 is stored.I agree with you, something went wrong with data stored in the eeprom.
Did you manage to get the software to work, and did you upload your own arbitrary waveforms?
Because I guess they are all stored waveforms, maybe it is a bug and the software accidentally overwrite the Sine instead of Arb1
Is it possible to adjust the rise/fall time of square waves with this generator? I really need that capability.Nope
Lots of antivirus programs will see an unknown .EXE file as a potential threat and flag it as suspicious. I doubt you have anything to worry about, nobody else here has reported any problems apart from the odd difficulty reading the CD.While it's true that some antivirus solutions will flag certain types of code as suspicious, it's also true that many people ignore reported malware on account of it likely being a false positive. If malware is somewhat decently constructed and depending on the purpose, the user won't notice anything being wrong after getting infected.
so the higher freqency models are just moer overclocked? |O I just happen to be looking at this on ebay last night, local seller for best price I've seen so far. Almost...You say it like it's a bad thing. Intel sells the same silicon at different clock speeds for different amoutns of money. Dave has done a video about factory overclocking. If you have tested and can guarantee operation, or even binned the chips, there little wrong with the practice.
Some photos are following.
Your comments are welcome.
The high res images are stored on onedrive here :
https://1drv.ms/f/s!Alr1uExd0Z7lleYbxrcIoIomOrVprA (https://1drv.ms/f/s!Alr1uExd0Z7lleYbxrcIoIomOrVprA)
Also the 50 Mhz oscillator in my unit isn't that great although it may meet the specs. If you have a function generator capable of many digits of resolution but the timebase is only accurate to 5 places, that is a waste. There are unused pads marked "S1" on the main board near the oscillator that may be for an external timebase that I'll look into.
bad layout, bad capacitor type and ... will ruin the performance. he could have achieved very better performance even with 10 or 12Bits DAC!!!
By PM request, some sine pics.
Mind you, not sure why you want these, if you think you can "eyeball" sine quality, you would be better off checking the spectrum pics a page back, they are much more relevant. The only thing you can get from these pics is a slight attenuation toward higher frequencies, which may as well be my scope rather then the AWG.
Also, please note the scope measurement at the bottom cannot be trusted on decimals. It is constantly jumping from 19.8 to 20.0 to 20.2, showing it lacks resolution.
20Mhz to 60MHz 1Vpp 50 Ohm
Hi all
Did someone tried to play around with arbitrary waves with the FY6600 PC Software?
I'm facing issues when I try to open waveforms that were previously saved (file xxxx.FY).
After having opened the file, the waveform is always not corresponding to the saved one, the scale and the plots are totaly messy |O
Hereafter, a printscreen of a ramp waveform saved and then reloaded !
1) Can anyone tell me how to extract pictures from PDFs and the little icons on toolbar buttons, etc., like they do to write software/product instruction manuals?If you have Acrobat, full version, there is usually a menu item to save all images as jpg. I am not familiar with any 3rd party Acrobat tools. Otherwise, you can just view at 100% and take a screen capture - tedious if there are many images...
Hi!
1) Can anyone tell me how to extract pictures from PDFs and the little icons on toolbar buttons, etc., like they do to write software/product instruction manuals?
Chris Williams
now I'm hesitating whether to choose 30MHz or 60MHz versions. Are you satisfied with your 60MHz version? or 30MHz is better?
Just for reference, there's an Ebay seller which ships from Frankfurt ... and he only sells the 60 MHz version. Don't know if that matters to you, but because it's above the custom limit for my country that clinched it for me. I don't want it for MHz signal generation, so that didn't matter to me.
now I'm hesitating whether to choose 30MHz or 60MHz versions. Are you satisfied with your 60MHz version? or 30MHz is better?
Just for reference, there's an Ebay seller which ships from Frankfurt ... and he only sells the 60 MHz version. Don't know if that matters to you, but because it's above the custom limit for my country that clinched it for me. I don't want it for MHz signal generation, so that didn't matter to me.
I am sure they did take it out of the queue and must have handled it, because the address label had been tampered with, a new local Dutch one placed on top and it took an unusual (but not impossible) 5 weeks to arrive. (usual is 2 to 4).The one from Frankfurt I ordered Saturday and I got I think Wednesday, so that's another thing to consider.
I ordered mine (30MHz version) from Fasttech, they sell both 30 and 60MHz.
Paid 88$ (~75€), with no shipping fees or taxes added.
Hello,Dear are you sure the IC is 4558? |O
For FY6600 generators the maximum frequency is valid for the sinusoidal signal, the other signals capping at 20-25 mhz.
The 2 integrated circuits under the aluminum radiator are 4558.
The crystal quartz reference for the Altera Cyclone FPGA is still 50 mhz in FY 6600 and FY2300H.
I ordered mine (30MHz version) from Fasttech, they sell both 30 and 60MHz.Can you look at the jumpers mentioned before? It would be most interesting to see the difference with the 60 MHz version.
Paid 88$ (~75€), with no shipping fees or taxes added.
Hello,Dear are you sure the IC is 4558? |O
For FY6600 generators the maximum frequency is valid for the sinusoidal signal, the other signals capping at 20-25 mhz.
The 2 integrated circuits under the aluminum radiator are 4558.
The crystal quartz reference for the Altera Cyclone FPGA is still 50 mhz in FY 6600 and FY2300H.
device has a 1.7 V/?s slew rate
Unity-Gain Bandwidth: 3 MHz Typ
8 nV/?Hz Typ at 1 kHz
The device is a dual general-purpose operational amplifier, with each half electrically similar to the ?A741, except that offset null capability is not provided.
this amplifier ideal for voltage-follower applications. The device is short-circuit protected, and the internal frequency compensation ensures stability without external components.
I ordered mine (30MHz version) from Fasttech, they sell both 30 and 60MHz.Can you look at the jumpers mentioned before? It would be most interesting to see the difference with the 60 MHz version.
Paid 88$ (~75€), with no shipping fees or taxes added.
I am assuming you mean the jumper from the power supply to main board?
Right now considering looking for a new power supply :horse:
Linear makes lots of sense. :palm:
I don't know man. Did you see on the video that even with Linear he also still has an AC leakage of 12V (https://youtu.be/ML-lmuHoh-0?t=1600) Thats much more than what you have right now, despite his linear supply.In defense of the mod suggested on the video, it was 12VAC but virtually 0 current (below 1 uA, apparently).
I think what you have now is a very good balance between simplistic and effective, and I will copy it.
The only think I might try is a 1M resister instead of a 100K, you said you tried but I did not quite understood the result.
I am not at home right now, otherwise I would be testing myself. This thread seems to make it all very important, but I just did not pay attention before and everything seems to work. That is why I think that the 'floating' cannot really source any current, and we are being oversensitive.
It happened with the FY3200 that users were getting different voltage and...
... and current values for the "leak"
I then set the output of the FY6600 to 10.12345678 Mhz and measured it on my counter and the photo shows the output is correct to all 10 displayed digits. Great!Correct 10 digits to 0.01Hz. That is great. :-+ What absolute precision do you think your GPS have?
In my last post I said what I planned to do to modify the timebase for far greater accuracy and promised an update. Well the 3N502 PLL frequency multiplier chips I ordered came today so I tried to remove the 50 Mhz SMD oscillator and install one of the chips. It was kind of tricky because I don’t have a desolder tool so I made a small 4-tined ‘fork’ with offset legs made out of 1-watt resistor leads connected to the tip of my soldering iron that would heat all 4 pads of the oscillator simultaneously and it came off without any damage. As it works out, there isn’t much you have to do to install the chip and it worked perfectly once installed. I connected one of my GPS standards to the 10 Mhz input to the chip and got the expected 50 Mhz out of the installed chip. I then set the output of the FY6600 to 10.12345678 Mhz and measured it on my counter and the photo shows the output is correct to all 10 displayed digits. Great!Can you tell us a little more about that sweet counter in the picture? The internet seems to be having trouble telling me about it. Is it a universal counter too?
The pins on the installed 3N502 chip that aren’t used I just bent out straight. The resist on the ground plane under pin 7 had to be scraped so that pin could be soldered to ground. Pin 2 is connected to the 3.3 V pad on the board with a piece of #30 wire and a cap is connected from pin 2 to ground as recommended. The output on pin 5 is soldered directly to the pad underneath it because that run already has a resistor in series with the output that is also recommended in the spec sheet for the chip. The yellow 10 Mhz input wire was just tacked to pin 1 and that will be cleaned up in the final version.
I still have to install the OXCO I’ll be using along with the associated BNC connector, trim pot, and switch but I had to test the timebase multiplier chip to see if it would do what I hoped it would and I’ll include another update when that’s done and the mods are all complete. I do want to thank CyberMaus again for finding the 3N502 chip because it works great.
For the rest, the official Samsung USB is the best, by far, followed by my cheapo china linear bench supply.
In fact, the Samsung is so good, I had to doublecheck my DMM had not stopped working.
As to the accuracy of my GPS system, long term it is about as accurate as the GPS source and short term the 10 Mhz output stays within a couple hundred nanoseconds worse case.
And to think all I wanted was a 'cheap' signal generator that worked :palm:
Nice work on the mods all :clap:
off to look at 'cheap' spectrum analyzers next .........
Nice work but won't the presence of a fan affect the 50Mhz time base?
Nice work but won't the presence of a fan affect the 50Mhz time base?
Why would you think it would?
Ok, noted. Not sure how mine does the high impedance 20Vpp then, but noted anyway.
So just to make clear: You state to have a +-15V linear transformer, but are feeding linear regulated (79/7815, so +-15V) to the device? Or are you regulating higher, using the sqrt(2)*15V=21V peaks?
I have exhausted what coffee can do for today. Time for a BEER :popcorn:Well earned.
Output Voltage Calibration
Seems the output voltages are not in fact firmware set. After taking a careful photo and tracing the board a bit the following pots can be twirled :scared:
As labeled. They are very twitchy so I might look at hacking some 10 turn pots to replace them.
W5 CH1 DC offset adjustment
W3 CH2 DC offset adjustment
Easiest cal method. Set Frequency to 0 and ampl to 0. Set offset to 10V and tweak. There is still a bit of non linearity so some more looking at resistors or for voltage references is in order.
W26 CH1 AMPL P-P adjustment
W16 CH2 AMPL P-P adjustment
I found setting these to 10V P-P gave me about the best linearity across the range. At 20V P-P low Amplitudes were out. So like the DC a bit more looking required. Tested from 50Hz to 100kHz and no real amplitude change.
This gets it within 1-2% across the range instead of the up to 10% I was reading :-+
So what does it mean - less than ideal calibration and testing in the factory I suspect?
In my opinion W5, W3, W26, W16 are used for Differential OpAmp compensation.
More info here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1343034/#msg1343034).
The responsible components for the DC offset are IC7 & IC8, 12bit DAC [MCP4822E]
Coffee Morning Sunshine and a pleasant 22 degrees in the shack :-+
My lab in the garage is 2 degrees this evening. :--Just give your office chair a push and you'll see the other 358 degrees swirls by in no time.
Coffee Morning Sunshine and a pleasant 22 degrees in the shack :-+
My lab in the garage is 2 degrees this evening. :--
Coffee Morning Sunshine and a pleasant 22 degrees in the shack :-+
My lab in the garage is 2 degrees this evening. :--
I remember being in Chicago in early November once when the NW wind came in out of Canada wasn't pleasant at all.
Building Voltage references in shorts and a Tshirt at present :-DD
1 | CLK | GND | 2 |
3 | DONE | Vcc | 4 |
5 | /CFG | /CE | 6 |
7 | DO | /CS | 8 |
9 | DI | GND | 10 |
JTAG | FPGA (https://www.altera.com/content/dam/altera-www/global/en_US/pdfs/literature/dp/cyclone-iv/ep4ce6.pdf) | FLASH (https://media.digikey.com/pdf/Data%20Sheets/Winbond%20PDFs/W25Q16BV.pdf) | ||
1 | 12 | 6 | CLK | |
2 | 4 | GND | ||
3 | 92 | Conf_Done | Pulled up with 10K | |
4 | 8 | Vcc | ||
5 | 14 | nConfig | Warning, low can clear the FPGA? Is pulled high by 10K | |
6 | 21 | nCE | When high FPGA disable in tri-state | |
7 | 13 | 2 | DO / Data0 | |
8 | 1 | /CS | When high FLASH disable in tri-state | |
9 | 6 | 5 | DI / ASDO | |
10 | 4 | GND |
JTAG | DIL-8 | |
1 | 6 | |
2 | 4 | |
3 | ||
4 | loop to 6 | |
5 | ||
6 | loop to 4 | |
7 | 2 | |
8 | 1 | |
9 | 5 | |
10 |
Hello,
On the front panel there is, unless I am mistaken, 1 STM32F103C8.
What do you think ?
Diabolo
Hmm, I did not even look at the display board. A bit short sighted of me.
I will look at that, out of interest, but I suspect the situation remains the same, its just a display driver.
There are a couple of issues with the display that could be fixed. For one thing, the font. Its gross and not the most legible. Another thing is the frequency display. Strip leading zeros, standardize units, more legible colours, etc. I'm sure there are other changes that people would want. If its only the display driver, maybe FeelTech could see their way to making it Open Source.Yeah, that very typical font has to go. A lot of the cheap Chinese stuff comes with it and it's a shame to have it detract from the device. Mind you, I can imagine it's all the same to someone whose native alphabet is different.
BUT: At least we will be able to repair the broken waveform for that guy who lost his SINE. What that you or someone else?In reply to Cybermaus : Yes, it's me ! The Sine memory waveform is a flat line on both channels.
I’m not convinced that anyone can guarantee that all the parts will continue working at +/-15V instead of the +/-12V the board calls for.
I’m not convinced that anyone can guarantee that all the parts will continue working at +/-15V instead of the +/-12V the board calls for.
Remind me, why do we believe the board calls for +/-12V?
At first I also I also thought it was a common +5V +12V board because not only is that common, but also someone reported that. But that very same person also mentioned his 12V supply was not very good because it was almost 15V. And mine is also hovering between 14.5V and 15.2V.
So I am wondering, maybe it simply is supposed to be a 15V supply? After all, +-15V is not an uncommon rail for OpAmps. So indeed, remind me, why do we think it is a +/-12V board?
I do agree though, if 15V, make sure you do not creep toward 16V.
+/-12V supply http://www.mpja.com/ (http://www.mpja.com/) Stock No: 34322 PS
+/-15V supply Ebay # 263326410466
Since I intend to sync this unit to an external frequency reference, is the frequency at the Sync OUT port 10 MHz?No, but its fairly easily and effectively added. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1346454/#msg1346454)
Hello,
How does a power supply / charger for laptops, LCD TVs, GSM, etc ... (Sony, Asus, Samsung, etc ...) that have a 110V-220V with 2 pins compared to the ground?
They must also have 32V of differential with the ground under power supply AC 220V and the general mass ?
Diabolo
Just received my FY6600. Free post, one week Shenzen to Sydney. Impressive.
I find the Ch2 - VCO loop works well, but it is necessary to offset the Ch2 output otherwise you only get half a sweep. Ch2 swings around 0V, but VCO in expects 0-5V. Using CH2 with ramp in this way gives a trigger that is ideal for syncing the scope trace to the Feeltech.
I think your Power Supply board is now at 'capacity' ;DAlmost, but you know this PS is really a piece of sh..
Did you run an earth wire or just the extra Caps to try and soak up a bit of the voltage?Only an extra Cap so the leaked voltage is now half the value of the mains voltage.
It didn't cost me anything as I used parts from my old stock of electronic devices.So replace brand new components with old ones in unknown condition? :palm:
I folks !
Finally I've decided not buying a new power supply, but making some modifications to the stock PS Feeltech.
I've focused my work on the caps and I would say that it's worth it.
The output filtering capacitors were swapped with low ESR and higher voltage ones.
Main front end circuit, a new high voltage cap 68µ/400v now takes place instead of the old crappy one (10µ/450v)
And last but not least, I've added a second HV cap between 0V and the unconnected mains.
It didn't cost me anything as I used parts from my old stock of electronic devices.
So replace brand new components with old ones in unknown condition?I never said that all my old stock is vintage, and I tested them before mounting on the PS pcb.
Why is that transformer at that ridiculous angle, surely you sorted that out?Not at all, the FY6600 was delivered with the transformer in this position.
2. Then, I replaced the dodgy output amplifier op-amp. The original one is an unknown 30021. At first I thought this is a dual variant of the single THS3001 but some guy has inquired about it from Texas Instruments and they replied that they do not manufacture such.Your dodgy crappy unknown 30021 are very well known 3002I -> THS3002 with extended operational temperature!
What is part of its badness is being labeled at 12V but giving over 15V, unconnected 20V but having only 16V caps.
WTF is that all about then, is there something under it like thermal cutout or what, if there's nothing there then I would have certainly have corrected that, its a reasonable sized lump flapping in the breeze there and producing untold stresses on the PCB due to inherent vibrations. :palm:QuoteWhy is that transformer at that ridiculous angle, surely you sorted that out?Not at all, the FY6600 was delivered with the transformer in this position.
Now do the same for any other 2-prong device you have.
It will be better for smaller power supplies, but most of them look scary.
I'd never considered the matter.
The caps marked 10S are 10V. I checked continuity and none are connected to the "12"V rails. They are connected to the 5V or come after some of the other linear regulators on the board. The 16V ones do have continuity to the 12V rails. Hopefully they hold.Now do the same for any other 2-prong device you have.
It will be better for smaller power supplies, but most of them look scary.
Interesting. I just repeated the test with a 5V wall wart supply from a kit of Arduino stuff. Very similar picture. I'd never considered the matter. Good thing to be more aware of. I'd never thought closely about ground loops in my bench setup, but clearly with a variety of power sources and grounds, it gets messy.
I'm looking it over closely. I don't understand the main board SMD electrolytic markings. Two are clearly marked 16 V, but most are marked "100 10S 3R7" Has anyone got a decoder ring?
I shall certainly put a proper ground on it if I keep it.
The 16V ones do have continuity to the 12V rails. Hopefully they hold.
Here they are using the internal PS. I can't see a significant difference toggling between the images.
It appears to be a sampling artifact. Here's what an RSP2 says set to 5 MHz BW. 10 MHz BW is similar. The display is *very* different with narrower BW to the point of not seeing a pronounced peak at 40 MHz. Not sure what is going on.Actually it isn't so strange at all, a SDR is not a spectrum analyser with professional specifications.
I've added a shot with the RSP2 set to 4 MHz BW. Very strange.
I fitted a grounded plug to my FY-6600, but still need to get Y caps for it.
It would be very helpful to have spectra from a calibrated commercial SA to compare to the RSP2 and scope FFT plots. I'm trying to sort out which of these things I should believe and when. So references are very helpful.
Hi folks
for those who are interested in some measures relatives to the HF behaviour of our beloved one, here it is.
SA is a Rohde & Schwarz, Professional reference in Spectrum analysis.
I also have the impression the source column in the table may be incorrect.
Or else I cannot explain 14,15 and 16,17, why measure the same thing twice on the same device?
It's not the same. I think he must have noticed that a small difference in frequency (10.7M vs 10.8M, and 14.8M vs 14.9M) causes marked differences in output.Yes, that was my point, focusing on figures at particular frequencies.
The center frequency is the same, but the actual main tone can be seen shifting in both cases.
So updating the caps in the original PSU would serve better purpose.
Where does one hook up the PE lead? Secondary ground?
I wonder if those sidebands (at roughly 30KHz / 300pSec offset) are jitter from the oscillator.
Would be interesting to see if they still exists after replacing that oscillator with that NB3N502 PLL that supposedly only has 15pSec jitter
Either ArthurDent needs to check that, or I need to buy a decent Spectrum Analyser.
All the waveforms seem to work except SQUR, ADJ-PULSE and ARB33-64. DC offset works. The other UI options seem a bit confused, but mostly seem to work. A bit hard to test as I haven't had the unit long enough to get acquainted.
Mine is version 3.0. Thanks for the warning about doing a factory reset.
The array of modifications various posters have come up with to improve the FY6600 is interesting and depends a lot on what that particular user’s main requirements are. My first interest was mainly to make the FY6600 safer by including a real ground through a 3-wire power cord and not to rely on an iffy virtual ground. Secondly I really wanted to make the timebase more stable and a LOT more accurate with the option of using an external 10 Mhz reference from GPS or a rubidium source. Along the way I discovered the existing power supply was crappy and not what I considered fixable so that had to be replaced as well. The grounding and timebase modifications I made worked as well as I hoped they would so that left the power supply and possibly the output amp that others considered lacking.
Recently I tried replacing the output amps as others had recommended and didn’t see that really improved anything for me and went back to the original single chip. I rarely go above 5 volts output so this modification wasn’t that high on my to-do list. Others have run the FY6600 main board on +/-15 to improve the output at higher levels with no reported problems but I was still worried about a possible failure. I had tried a +/-15 vdc supply I modified to put out about 14.2 vdc to perhaps give me a little more margin of safety. I was uneasy in running the main board at a full 15 volts with the caps on the board rated at 16 volts (as others have mentioned) plus I wasn’t so sure that some of the other parts wouldn’t be stressed by the higher voltage. Almost all SMPSs have one adjustment for the +5 and the other two supplies are ratios of that so to just use that adjustment to lower the +/-15 supplies to about 14.2 volts, which I thought might be safer, would mean that the +5 would be lowered as well by about .3 volts, and I didn’t find this acceptable. What I tried was to put a conventional 3-amp diode in series with the two + and – supplies which would drop those voltages by about .8 to .9 volts while leaving the +5 right on.
While that worked to lower the +/- voltages a little and made me feel a little better, the supply I used that just fit in the space in the case was a supply capable of supplying 60 watts. This meant that although the main board doesn’t require much power, the supply used 10 watts and most of that was given up as heat and the FY6600 ran warmer than I liked. The first 40 watt +/-12 vdc supply I tried was a little more efficient but still generated some heat and used about 8 watts. The supply I settled on was a 25 watt +/-12 vdc supply I have shown previously that uses only 6 watts when powering the FY6600 and 4-5 watts when the front switch is turned off but parts of the main board are still powered. Keep in mind that the OCXO that I used as a timebase stays powered when the back switch is on and does use about 1.5-1.8 watts when it is at temperature but that doesn’t contribute much internal heat.
Here are 2 photos. One shows how I added the diodes in series with the +/- supply lines and bypassed then with a couple of tantalum capacitors if anyone might want to try that. The second photo is of the 25 watt supply I showed before. I’m pretty sure these are all the modifications I’ll be making to the FY6600 but I’ll keep reading to see what other great ideas others come up with. In a way I spent more time with the FY6600 apart than with it together and doing what amounts to trying to make a Ford run like a Mercedes when I might have been better off buying the Mercedes in the first place!
It would be very interesting to know who the designers are.
Its one.
Though it is always possible they changed it to two on later builds / firmware's especially with all these links to Frauenhofer around.
Hi!
My plan to buy one to document on this Forum has borne fruit and I'm expecting delivery after the Christmas Holidays!
I'll be posting pictures, details of FW version, waveform samples, plus circuit-details, parts lists, etc., rev'd from the unit exactly from as I receive it, and I'll report the effect of the OEM's "Factory Reset" - if it borks the unit then I'll send the STM32 FP Assembly to Member DC1MC for his perusal!
Unfortunately I haven't got (can't afford yet!) one of those nice colour-screen LED Oscilloscopes that other members publish their oscillograms from, I can only offer ordinary analogue 'scope trace pics for now!
Chris WIlliams
I just used a cheap and cheerful Chinese switched one https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1343235/#msg1343235 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1343235/#msg1343235)
Staying IEC made sense as most other things on my bench already have them. A little off topic but I also got a couple of these which tidied up my bench and gear shelf a lot. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Black-57cm-IEC-320-C14-Male-to-3-x-C13-Female-Y-Splitter-Power-Cable-Cord/331700358437?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Black-57cm-IEC-320-C14-Male-to-3-x-C13-Female-Y-Splitter-Power-Cable-Cord/331700358437?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
...but checking the output of the FY6600 after it has done all its magic to produce this frequency and waveform...
What about these guys. they are cheap cheerful AND filtered ?
Dear customer,
Hope you rae doing fine.
Thank you for your question.
Okay. Sure. The item owns the latest 3.2 version.
Have great day
Best regards
From the Factory on the 4th of November "The latest firmware of the instrument is version 4.2 ."
Also
"DC deviations can only be corrected by updating firmware. " which as per an earlier post of mine isn't quite correct. What I suspect they mean is we have a rough stab at the trimpots then correct it in software.
Well someone is in error then ::)
The plot thickens, I've send them the picture (and also made myself an inquiry to Feeltech), and reminding them about warranty law in Germany (they'll have to support the costs of updating), let's see what comes out of it. Maybe dome price decrease >:D.Why would Feeltech be bound to German warranty laws?
Thanks a lot,
DC1MC
Could be a simple typo. 3 vs 4 would make them both claim 3.2. I hope you are not under the impression a lot of effort and care went into that email.
I would find 3.2 more believable then 4.2, as everyone else in seemed to have gotten 2.9; 3.0; 3.1 devices
Of course, I would not recommend buying the device anyway. Not rewarding Feeltech until they do some actual warranty repairs rather then promising them.
Mine is still working, but every time I turn it on I worry.
I that any hardware difference between 60MHz,50 MHz, 30 MHz and 15 MHz version of FY6600? Is low frequency version upgradable by hack to high frequency version?
Hello,
Have customs taxes been paid ?
Diabolo
Hi!I think you'd have to ask yourself whether you really want to hook up an unmarked and unknown Chinese power supply to mains.
Has anybody tried modernising their FY6600 with one of these:–
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Multi-channel-Linear-DC-Power-Supply-Module-3-3V-5V-12V-Adjustable-Output/262612931341?hash=item3d24f3530d:g:ZgYAAOSw8oFXz3Vu
Are they capable of supplying the necessary power requirements of the unit? I'm thinking of replacing the cheap and horrible SMPSU with one of these linear modules with the advantage of transformer isolation!
Chris Williams
https://www.banggood.com/fr/DIY-USB-Boost-Single-Turn-Dual-Power-Module-Linear-Regulators-Multiple-Output-Power-Kit-p-1022517.html?rmmds=myorder&cur_warehouse=UK/quote]
I'd certainly go with one of these (bought in kit form so I can document the schematic & parts list of course!!!) and have been thinking about one – I've got an RS 78xx PCB floating about to fit rectifiers & smoothing capacitors to!
Does anyone know the approximate current consumption of the FY6600 (per rail) driving 10V p–p square @ 1 MHz into 50 ohms ?
Chris Williams
Hi!
Has anybody tried modernising their FY6600 with one of these:–
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/New-Multi-channel-Linear-DC-Power-Supply-Module-3-3V-5V-12V-Adjustable-Output/262612931341?hash=item3d24f3530d:g:ZgYAAOSw8oFXz3Vu
Are they capable of supplying the necessary power requirements of the unit? I'm thinking of replacing the cheap and horrible SMPSU with one of these linear modules with the advantage of transformer isolation!
Chris Williams
I located a clock and events when I pressed buttons The ribbon has 12 wires, four of which appear to be for the RS232 connection. IIRC I only observed data on 3 lines + the clock. That suggests that every other line is ground.
I did not have a reliable connection to the bus, so I stopped until I have time to put an attachment for probing together.
I located a clock and events when I pressed buttons The ribbon has 12 wires, four of which appear to be for the RS232 connection. IIRC I only observed data on 3 lines + the clock. That suggests that every other line is ground.What works well for me when probing many signals is a dual row header with enamel wires attached to it. One row are for signals, the other row is for ground. I solder the enamel wires to the board because clips let go way too easely.
I did not have a reliable connection to the bus, so I stopped until I have time to put an attachment for probing together.
Hi!
I have just gone through the whole thread. Interesting device this is.
Can somebody please enlighten me how the output amplitude control is done in this device?
Thx, Y.
a firmware bug around 0.5V amplitude where a relay goes clunk inside the box ...
I do have one question tho' – are the "waveform graphics" shown on the front display/U.I. actually drawn/calculated from whatever is sent to the DAC controls, or are they a simple graphic plot worked out from a library function table, etc?
Continual placing of their heads in the sand over this will see a severe decline in sales as any quick Google check of their product will get you here!
Continual placing of their heads in the sand over this will see a severe decline in sales as any quick Google check of their product will get you here!
I'll believe it when I see it. These units have had major issues since day 1 (that feeltech still hasn't addressed), but people continue to buy them anyways.
Just to be sure, but did you properly terminate the cables?Yes, the 'scope is 50R terminated in both channels.
Just to be sure, but did you properly terminate the cables?Yes, the 'scope is 50R terminated in both channels.
I've created a video of my issues (well only some of them)
https://g0mgx.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/feeltech-6600-issues-list.html (https://g0mgx.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/feeltech-6600-issues-list.html)
I can't help thinking that what I am seeing is a combination of firmware and possible some crappy relays sticking.
Anyone with the same unit, can you reproduce what I show on the video?
To confirm the firmware in my unit is 3.2.
Mark
G0MGX
Continual placing of their heads in the sand over this will see a severe decline in sales as any quick Google check of their product will get you here!
I'll believe it when I see it. These units have had major issues since day 1 (that feeltech still hasn't addressed), but people continue to buy them anyways.
It is a shame as the built in feature set with a few on going hardware improvements from there end would see market dominance in this lower priced Sig Gen market. Open Source the software/firmware and remain the hardware provider and take advantage of a user base modding and tweaking would be a win win for them.
they've chosen a way too weak MCU that does way too much.
Anyone with the same unit, can you reproduce what I show on the video?
One step at a time, in order of difficulty:
1x - Capturing the schematics, to see with what we're actually dealing.
3x - Decoding the communication protocol and capabilities of the existing signal board / firmware.
9x - Redoing the STM32 firmware in a proper way.
27x - Exploring and fully understanding the possibilities and limitations of the current signal board design, including the firmware.
81x - Redesigning and producing an improved FPGA firmware.
243x - Redesigning and producing another signal board with better features and performance
These are my very conservative and optimistic estimates of the difficulty multiplication factor of the tasks ahead.
One has only to provide the number of hours needed for capturing the schematics.
So, let's try to get the schematics of the existing unit to get the unit of effort (UE) in work hours for the project.
Cheers,
DC1MC
I would say a proper schematic capture will take at least 10 hours, rewriting the STM firmware after one has the full schematic and protocol to be implemented fully specified, it's realistic to have it in beta after 90 hours.
If someone can read out the firmware finding the buffer overflow (or they might be slamming the flash with way too many writes I guess) shouldn't be that hard if they have IDA ... it happens frequently enough that it shouldn't take too long just triggering on memory access. Binary patch it and throw it on the internet.
Uhmm, so which firmware version exactly are you talking about, all seem to be buggy ?
Based on my bus probing, there is a pretty simple command protocol. The UI shows the user what the current parameters are and transmits the changes. At boot time it sends the boot time settings to the AWG. Other than an ACK/NACK, there is no reason in AWG mode for any traffic from the AWG board to the UI board.
So IMHO, the first step is to figure out what the UI sends to the AWG when you change a setting. Forget the counter function until the AWG works. That's the part that's valuable. You can buy a much more capable counter on eBay for $12-15.
As for reading the FW, read the Fraunhofer paper, implement it and get back to us with the FW dump. We'll be happy to take it from there.
I've had to fix a few million lines of other people's code. At a certain point, it is easier and quicker to simply consider the problem and write the code from scratch. I think that is true in this case. Using the device as an AWG only requires sorting out the command set. I'll gladly write code to control the AWG via RS-232.
The more I look into this stuff, the more I believe that rewriting the firmware is the best way to do it, the Fraunhofer method it's a PITA and reversing the screwed up crap in their firmware it will be most likely useless and a waste of time. I've seen that STM offers a lot of libraries for everything from serial and LCD driving to graphical and mathematical routines and I doubt that our Chinese friends used something else, new and original. And if they did, it's the buggy part. Not to mention that in this situation nobody can claim or hinder us with DMCA and copyright shite.
Now there seems to be a mess in the thread.
What pins are connected in between the MCU and the other board?
Or how did you come up with the SPI1 pins?
Well... I don't have the FY6600 to begin wirt. Maybe if one could donate or lend me one for reverse engineering? Germany somebody? ;D
This way I can only give expertise on STM32 device side.
They use the SPI2 for sure. Just identify the rest of the GPIOs where do they end on the FPGA board.
The 4 pin group is Gnd, Rx, Tx and 5V. There are no other wires between the FP & MB. My main board is marked V1.5.
Hi!
One of these is within my monthly pocket money allowance – would it be worthwhile trying one on the FY6600?
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-Logic-100MHz-16Ch-Logic-Analyzer-16-Channel-Analyzer-for-ARM-FPGA/182821963784?epid=915703876&hash=item2a9109c808:g:OdwAAOSwLiJZ3YiF
Chris Williams
I'm off to do some more research into this data format.
Mark
From the Chinglish description it sounds OK, especially if it's supporting the original software somehow.
Better switch it to state mode and use SPI_SCK (pin 6) as sampling clock, at least the data will be correct.
Hi!
One of these is within my monthly pocket money allowance – would it be worthwhile trying one on the FY6600?
https://m.ebay.co.uk/itm/USB-Logic-100MHz-16Ch-Logic-Analyzer-16-Channel-Analyzer-for-ARM-FPGA/182821963784?epid=915703876&hash=item2a9109c808:g:OdwAAOSwLiJZ3YiF
Chris Williams
From the Chinglish description it sounds OK, especially if it's supporting the original software somehow.
Better switch it to state mode and use SPI_SCK (pin 6) as sampling clock, at least the data will be correct.
I dont see any reference to "state mode" in PulseView - might it be called something else?
Installing a USB3 PCI card has improved things, but still I am missing samples at very repeatable intervals - looks like something else is occupying the PC at those times as the pulses being dropped now are evenly spaced. It is supposed to support up to 24MHz dependent on PC hardware and data transfer rates so there are more options for me to try.
I haven't given up yet (well not quite anyhow).
Mark
Partner bought me one of these for christmas as im currently trying to self teach my self electronics (have been for the past 20+ years) and looks to be ok for the beginner, was just wondering to myself today if there is any firmware updates for this, and a few seconds on google brings me this :'(. anyway, really interesting reading this thread and to all those that are helping to get to the bottom of this keep up the good work.
steve
Hi Steve and welcome to our merry gang ;D, be yourself the change in the firmware, and if you want to train yourself in electronics (the practical side) now it's an excellent change to do it, select from the plate of goodies:
- Look higher in thread, practical examples on how to make the device electrical safe for other devices, replacing the power connector with a grounded one, changing the cabling and modifying the back pannel.
Skills needed: basic craftsmanship with a Dremmel tool and a file, some basic soldering skill, ability to follow simple instructions and pictures.
- Capture the schematic of the Power Supply (low skill), Front Panel (average skill) and Signal Board (advanced skill).
Skills needed: The ability to disassemble non-destructively an equipment, recognizing components, using a multimeter with a continuity beeper, using a schematic capture CAD program ( KiCAD, Circuit MAker, pirated version of Altium).
- Replace the miserable 16V electrolytic capacitors on +/- 12V rails in preparation for changing the power supply to a better one delivering stabilized +/- 15V.
Skills needed: Basic desoldering/soldering skill, a good soldering station and eventually a desoldering tool.
- Help the effort of decoding the communication protocol between the FB and SB, to be able to control the device with another software or board, for example an RPi. Also if the FW craps out, to get your calibration constants in a safe place.
Skills needed: Ability to work with a scope and logic analyzer, connecting over the signal cable in a movie hacke way :). Tools needed: a GOOD logic analyzer and a reasonable scope (this will be needed later).
- Help build a new, improved firmware for the front panel or for other MCU with a LCD, alternatively for a tablet, Android or IPAD
Skills needed: understanding the hardware and the control protocol, advanced programming capabilities for iOS or Android.
- Improve the Signal Board and signal quality, replace the power supply with a better one with stabilized outputs, eventually a linear one instead of the switching mode one, replace the output operational amplifiers, recalibrate the whole system while system while doing many measurements for at least 1024 calibration points, enter in flame fests about the spectrum analyzer settings and rubidium controlled reference clocks.
Skills needed: master analogue and digital hacker skills. Tools needed: Highly advanced Spectrum analyzer, GPS synchronized frequency reference, complex power meters with precise probes, highly advanced scope to measure the phase shift.
- Rebuild the FPGA programming based on the above acquired knowledge, discover neat trick to move the frequency for non sinus waveforms, shame the FeelTech Chinese programmers and become a forum luminary and mentor. Avoid and be anoyed about all the recruiters begging to hire you.
Skills needed: alpha level hacker in mixed mode devices. Serious deep theoretical and practical knowledge of the whole matter. Tools needed: cheap USB Blaster-2 and Quartus software over what you've aleady collected.
So you see that starting with this humble cheap generator can improve your electronics skill and advance you professionally a lot. You just have to start :D, so go get'em :box:
- reflashing the flash memory where the sine waveform had been corrupted : done
Flashing : thanks to Cybermaus for his precious tips.
One more advice, don't forget to firstly erase the flash before rewriting it !
- reflashing the flash memory where the sine waveform had been corrupted : done
Flashing : thanks to Cybermaus for his precious tips.
One more advice, don't forget to firstly erase the flash before rewriting it !
How? Please tell us!! I've been waiting 2 weeks for FeelTech & sportgogo to reply with anything more than empty promises.
Would you join our reversing effort for the protocol ?
Cheers,
DC1MC
- reflashing the flash memory where the sine waveform had been corrupted : done
Flashing : thanks to Cybermaus for his precious tips.
One more advice, don't forget to firstly erase the flash before rewriting it !
How? Please tell us!! I've been waiting 2 weeks for FeelTech & sportgogo to reply with anything more than empty promises.
- reflashing the flash memory where the sine waveform had been corrupted : done
Flashing : thanks to Cybermaus for his precious tips.
One more advice, don't forget to firstly erase the flash before rewriting it !
How? Please tell us!! I've been waiting 2 weeks for FeelTech & sportgogo to reply with anything more than empty promises.
Have a look at this post, you'll have all the explanation to read/write the flash memory.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1352448/#msg1352448 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1352448/#msg1352448)
All you need is a CH341a board (seek it on ebayy or aliexprss, mine is the black board), and some skills in cabling for linking the JTAG footprint on the FY6600 main board to the CH341.
FY6600 CH341(25SPI pins)
1 -> 6
2 -> 4
3
4 -> I
5 I (connect JTAG 4 to JTAG 6 to disable the Cyclone during flash read/write operation)
6 <- I
7 -> 2
8 -> 1
9 -> 5
10 -> 4 (same as 2 = GND)
CH341A = set to Windbond W25Q16BV
If your cabling is correct you'll be able to read the flash memory.
Let us know ;-)
Cheers
(don't hesitate to DM me if you need some help)
Hi Dave
Interesting!
When you say your unit is working - are you able to reproduce any of the issues in my video?
http://g0mgx.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/feeltech-6600-issues-list.html (http://g0mgx.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/feeltech-6600-issues-list.html)
Assuming your version of firmware is the same as mine, if your unit doesnt exhibit the same issues as mine, then I will have to start to look at other possible hardware issues in my unit.
Grateful for your report back!
Mark
I also checked for phase shift again, using a constant 5v amplitude, and found that the two channels were only 1.4nS apart after going from 1MHz to 60MHz, although both had also shifted another 2nS along the time axis. I haven't read your explanation of the 4nS discrepancy you found, Chris, but my readings indicate that it might just be a bit of "natural variation" (in a sample size of two).
Has anybody addressed or figured out the reason (or reasons) for the jitter (for example, about 4 ns jittering on the falling edge of the squarewave) in this unit? Has anybody suggested any solutions yet? I suppose, just changing the clock oscillator to an ultra-low jitter type wouldn't help here. Thanks to everybody's input!
Hi, everyone,Isn't that the classic square wave frequency not being divisible by the clock frequency jitter?
Has anybody addressed or figured out the reason (or reasons) for the jitter (for example, about 4 ns jittering on the falling edge of the squarewave) in this unit? Has anybody suggested any solutions yet? I suppose, just changing the clock oscillator to an ultra-low jitter type wouldn't help here. Thanks to everybody's input!
Can you test this specifically with some frequencies which are whole divisions of the 250mHz clock. Like 50.00, 41.66, 35.71, 31.25, 27.77, 25.00 MHz
Somewhat unnerving that its labelled as 12v but measuring 15.8V and has 16V rated output caps. They should be 25V rated.
Not sure I agree to that.
There are some issues with this device, but the 4ns jitter? I strongly suspect that the 10x more expensive equivalent Rigol DG1062Z 60Mhz 2 channel AWG has the same issue.
So we are getting a more then we paid for.
In fact, all of the device is a good deal, with all quirks, even the leaky PSU, if you check price/performance to what said equivalent Rigol would cost.
Only the firmware-self-destruct is below par. So far below par I cannot advise the device till they have a warranty system.
Can you test this specifically with some frequencies which are whole divisions of the 250mHz clock. Like 50.00, 41.66, 35.71, 31.25, 27.77, 25.00 MHz
I did the measurements at the requested frequencies, a lot more carefully than the previous day's rough look, and took the average over four separate trials, after a 30 minute warm up period. The Ch1 trace was centered exactly on the crosshairs at 25MHz, and the Ch2 lag time was measured at each frequency, the results being:
25.00MHZ 1.00nS
27.77MHz 1.00nS
31.25MHZ 1.10nS
35.71MHz 1.00nS
41.66MHz 1.10nS
50.00MHz 1.20nS
In fact, the relative phase shift was constant from at least 5Mhz to 50MHZ, but both traces kick laterally by about 2nS at 20MHz - otherwise their positions are quite stable.
One thing I did notice today, however, is that the Ch2 amplitude is about 0.15v less than Ch1's when set to 5v at 25MHz, when the channels are supposed to be in sync, and the difference appears to get bigger as the frequency increases. I'll have to have another look at that to see exactly whats going on over the whole range, and see if other waveforms are affected.
Regards,
Dave
Out of curiosity, Vytautas, why don't you give the "Help - Repair_Sine" option in the latest control software a try. We don't know what it does yet, but my guess it was added in after it became known that 3.0 was a major problem, and this could be the fix for it.
Before I purchased the unit I messaged the seller asking which firmware revision his units were ,I still havent heard back on it from him .I purchased my unit on Dec 8th and received the 3.2 FW
I went ahead and ordered but told them to hold the order until I get the answer to the question .
So it seems indeed V3.1 is not safe, but it is repairable.i would not call this "repairable". It just fixes the issue "for the moment". The next moment, it is gone again. At least this is what i observe with this "repair".
It would seem if Feeltech want their customers to remain loyal and not leave them with a paper weight and a bunch of negative press they need to at very least offer people some viable alternative to shipping it back to factory at their own cost.
Hello everybody, here are some preliminary news on the protocol decoding stuff (btw, the stored sine waves have been repaired):I assume with PC software menu option?
- The control message that the FP sends seem to be the FULL configuration, that is, the frequency, amplitude and whatever is send for the both channels and the FPGA reconfigures fully.If it sends the entire config, does that mean the entire waveform gets reset? It seems not. At least not if I change the amplitude (easy to trigger on) on channel A, channel B runs without any discontinuity, and even channel A only changes amplitude while its phase runs continuously.
WANTED !!! Kind Soul to Lease a Logic Analyzer with a RELIABLE sampling mode (3V3 levels) of at least 50MHz (100MHz preferable, not every Chinese firma is Intronix) on at least 4 channels.I assume you mean 'loan'? Sorry, I only have a 20MS/s 256KB Scanalogic-2 (IKALogic)
>:D note: Is the freq limit hardcoded in the FP (bypassed by a new firmware or MCU), in the SB (bypassed by copying the SB flash) or in the components used (bypassed by soldering the right ones) ?
- Reading the protocol is interesting, and I am not against puzzles, but it would be only half the work. After that there is also the grinding work of reprogramming another device as UI. Maybe said stm32 blue-pill, but a lot of extra work, and we are bound to also make bugs, like feeltech.
So cybermaus, about the the security measures, can you detail, is the MCU closed on level 1 (doable) or on level 2 (not doable) ?
... I downloaded the code form the Fraunhoffer project....
- A: I was also looking at the DS Xilinx whatever clones, it doesn't seem to have RLL compression implemented, and if so, even with the 256KBits sample memory, it's useless. In streaming mode is definitely useless. But of course, I can only use the seller provided information, that is some distorted chinglish and on 10 similar looking devices you've got 10 different descriptions, they are throwing whatever shit and see which of it sticks on the wall and sells more. And most likely the software is nicely done and a pleasure to work with >:D.
- A: I was also looking at the DS Xilinx whatever clones, it doesn't seem to have RLL compression implemented, and if so, even with the 256KBits sample memory, it's useless. In streaming mode is definitely useless. But of course, I can only use the seller provided information, that is some distorted chinglish and on 10 similar looking devices you've got 10 different descriptions, they are throwing whatever shit and see which of it sticks on the wall and sells more. And most likely the software is nicely done and a pleasure to work with >:D.
Would it matter if the device has 256 MBits of onboard storage memory, like this one? (https://www.ebay.com/itm/USB-Logic-DSLogic-Analyzer-16Ch-100MHz-4Ch-400MHz-Xilinx-Spartan-6-FPGA/182687940922?_trkparms=aid%3D555018%26algo%3DPL.SIM%26ao%3D2%26asc%3D49899%26meid%3D7312b39552504dc08178c8d5d2f784b7%26pid%3D100890%26rk%3D1%26rkt%3D12%26sd%3D162474227153&_trksid=p2056116.c100890.m2460)
There are 17 switches and an optical encoder on the FP. Would someone with a functioning (V 3.2+) unit document the state machine? Most of the switches just select which input parameter is controlled by the optical encoder and the LCD panel switches. It would also be helpful to know more about the RS-232 port and the LCD display. That will let me start designing new FW.
I don't think it is worth spending much time on the FT FW aside from pure entertainment of trying the Fraunhofer attack.
I got my test monitor mounted to the wall, so I should be able to cable most of the bench tomorrow. Then I'll install programming pins and make an LA probing cable. I've got an STM32F429 Discovery board, so I'll probably use that for the initial FW dev work as it has lots more resources and I know I can reprogram it.
I'm not clear on the "registers" DC1MC mentions. Are these in the FPGA or the STM32?
[
I've also posted a full configuration packet, that sets 20 registers at a time, for sine wave settings.
Is the phase shift table above correct or am I misunderstanding what it is indicating? Is the symbol " meant to be ° for degrees and if so is the last entry meant to be 359.999° ?
-Arthur
Phase shift interesting values (sine waveform):
000.000" - 0xFFFFF
089.999" - 0xC0002
090.000" - 0xBFFFF
090.001" - 0xBFFFC
179.999" - 0x80002
180.000" - 0x7FFFF
180.001" - 0x7FFFC
399.999" - 0x00002
A few stray thoughts:
The memory corruption may be a HW design fault. In particular, failure to hold the power good pin off long enough for the PSU to stabilize. Mine worked fine until I turned it on for the Nth time. My understanding is that same scenario applies to the other failures. so potentially another thing that needs to be fixed.
The units may need individual calibration to correct for DAC errors. The extent of the memory corruption makes any existing calibration tables highly suspect. Recalibrating with limited equipment is likely to be quite challenging.
I looked at a couple of YoutTube reviews , one with a teardown, of the JDS6600 which uses a different FPGA and generates the output voltages from a 5 V input. It also uses the STM32F103, but the UI board is different. Unfortunately, neither of the reviews checked the voltage on the BNC ground.
We need another unit to check, but it could be that there are NO calibration tables in the exiting fw, at lest for frequency, amplitude, phase and offset, that I've tested here. It could be that they measured once and determined the values and then left these trimmer resistors for tunning and that's it. The units will benefit for some individual calibration.
For the PSU they do offer a power-good pin that goes 0 when the power is there (it's a transistor with a resistor to base, of course, this one it's also not calibrated).
DC1MC -"I try to be very careful and repeat the measurements a number of times before I post something, but of course, nobody's perfect, so if you spot any possible issue, I can redo the measurement."True Arthur, this was a brainfart while transcribing :(, of course is 359.999
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in my previous post. I had two points of confusion, the " vs ° I could see, but where the last left entry in the table was 399.999, which is over 360°, I was wondering if I was missing something. The last value you got on the right looks logical for 359.999°. None of the results are not being questioned, just that there was a wrong digit entered.
I believe I did mention this before Zeroplus LAP-C has compression and also something they call "filtering", which is basically "sample enable gating".. You can enable one of the inputs to behave as a sort of "enable", gating, so analyser is not spending memory when not enabled. On SPI protocol you can set it to work on chip select for instance, and it will sample only when CS is active...
Sampling to 200Mhz..
I have 16128, 16ch 128k samples depth. Useful little thing..
My 16128 was 270 € (no VAT) in eleshop...
Well, good for you and the useful little thing, the problem is the "upgradeable" 16032 units from 2011-2013 are long gone, fleabay has exactly ONE 16034 unit for 225 EUR and looking at the German/EU specialty shops shows the thing in between 480 and 800EUR, and I will never pay so much.
What will be nice to have is a board with a robust Xilinx FPGA + DDR2 RAM like this Papillio or the Pipistrello board, unfortunately ALL of them had brainfarts during design, instead of putting some Cypress FX, interfaces they've put either some lame USB to serial converters or even lamer PICs, making them completely useless for anything, and so these boards have more or less disappeared.
Why is nobody connecting one of these FX3 chips to a FPGA+tons of RAM (64MBit at least) and so a nice logic analyzer design on it, with RLL, gating and data streaming, using the on device RAM for ample buffering.
On such a device I definitely spend 5-600EUR, not on some unknown ASIC based crap that is not even USB3.
OH well, I have to ask in forums if such a board already exists, maybe I do need to start a bit of digital design.
Cheers,
DC1MC
My 16128 was 270 € (no VAT) in eleshop...
Well, good for you and the useful little thing, the problem is the "upgradeable" 16032 units from 2011-2013 are long gone, fleabay has exactly ONE 16034 unit for 225 EUR and looking at the German/EU specialty shops shows the thing in between 480 and 800EUR, and I will never pay so much.
Now out of stock :(What will be nice to have is a board with a robust Xilinx FPGA + DDR2 RAM like this Papillio or the Pipistrello board, unfortunately ALL of them had brainfarts during design, instead of putting some Cypress FX, interfaces they've put either some lame USB to serial converters or even lamer PICs, making them completely useless for anything, and so these boards have more or less disappeared.
Why is nobody connecting one of these FX3 chips to a FPGA+tons of RAM (64MBit at least) and so a nice logic analyzer design on it, with RLL, gating and data streaming, using the on device RAM for ample buffering.
On such a device I definitely spend 5-600EUR, not on some unknown ASIC based crap that is not even USB3.
OH well, I have to ask in forums if such a board already exists, maybe I do need to start a bit of digital design.
Cheers,
DC1MC
Also was said, tool with Xilinx® Spartan®-6 FPGA and 2Gbit of buffer RAM is Digital discovery... That one was 186 € (no VAT)... No compression, but it has segmented capture..
Maybe Digilent could be persuaded to add compression ??
This is a thing that I will not pick it for free, my rant about can be read for your enjoyment in the other forum where I was asking for board suggestions :-DD
Regards,
Sinisa
The good news: I've got reliable connections to the bus and am getting data. The MSO2204EA will collect 10 Mpts at 100,200,500 Ms/S & 1 Gs/S.
The bad news: I have no clue what I'm doing. I've never used the LA features before other than a brief attempt which made clear I needed more reliable connections to the bus. So I have several things to learn. The scope LA , the AWG and the SPI bus.. I know what the SPI bus is and its strengths and weaknesses, but I have no practical experience working with it. I've also never used a LA before.
FWIW I was reading the JDS thread today. The maker is very active in the forum helping owners and explaining the history of the very similar units. Apparently two engineers designed all the units. The JDS is the most recent version. I think a major issue for FeelTech is the lack of an engineer with English language skills. I urge everyone to ask for technical assistance from FeelTech. JDS is providing the bus command protocol. It's in Chinese so google translate is required for most, but they will help with problems.
Please!!!! Start a thread in the repair section of EEVblog so people can find things like bus pin assignments, etc. Trolling through this thread to find a snippet of information is a huge waste of time.
Scope is a 4channel 100MHz with uart spi i2c can bus decoding etc.
Just for my information as much as anyone elses I have buzzed out the header on the front panel because as has been mentioned this thread is getting a little bulky to follow and got the following.
@DerKammi Let's not be swept away by all the negativity, for the price it's really a good development platform for people that want to study and understand many things, from MCU to FPGA programming, direct digital synthesis of signals, analog stuff and much more (even power supply design and pitfalls). And when it works it makes a usable device and if fully moded and fitted with our new fw ;) will make a killer device.
Hello,
It would not be electrostatic discharge that would be a problem ?
Diabolo
... I've wanted to see how much it's the initialization sequence when one channel is activated and the whole LCD is refreshed, as my little LA doesn't stand a chance to log the sequence I started to count the SPI transfers at least.I attached 2 captures: the OFF to ON and then ON to OFF sequences for CH1: Sine, Freq.10Khz, Amp.5V, Off.0V, Duty.50%, Phase.0, same on CH2 which remained OFF.
BLOODY ROTATING HELL !!!
5608 transfers !!!
Whoever has a LA that is able to log this, please tell, I want one.The captures where made using a DSLogic Basic (55€ on aliexpress) upgraded to the Plus version by adding a 256Mbit RAM Buffer (2€ @mouser). But even the Basic version can stream the Power On initialization sequence with simple Triggers (6 channels@ 50Mhz or 3 signals @100Mhz).
I'm getting waveforms out again, so it appears that I caused problems when I soldered wires to the 8 bit bus connectors making the connections to the SB header unreliable. In retrospect, I should have cut the cable in the middle and soldered the ends together to take the grabbers.Cutting wires is a little bit extremist :)
... I've wanted to see how much it's the initialization sequence when one channel is activated and the whole LCD is refreshed, as my little LA doesn't stand a chance to log the sequence I started to count the SPI transfers at least.I attached 2 captures: the OFF to ON and then ON to OFF sequences for CH1: Sine, Freq.10Khz, Amp.5V, Off.0V, Duty.50%, Phase.0, same on CH2 which remained OFF.
BLOODY ROTATING HELL !!!
5608 transfers !!!
EDIT: I just noticed that with V3.2 I have 6024 transfers in that case compared to your 5608 ...
Cutting wires is a little bit extremist :)
With this type of connector, you don't need grabbers. I would suggest to solder head to head 2 rows of 8 pins. You release the connector from the board, insert one side of the 8 pins in the upper part of the connector and then replug the connector. This will lock the pins in place. Than you connect on the other side of the 8 pins directly your LA wires (or eventually scope probes). Have a look at the photo I posted before, this should be clearer than my explanation ;)
EDIT: Typo.. "lock" and not "look".. sorry
Cutting wires is a little bit extremist :)
With this type of connector, you don't need grabbers. I would suggest to solder head to head 2 rows of 8 pins. You release the connector from the board, insert one side of the 8 pins in the upper part of the connector and then replug the connector. This will lock the pins in place. Than you connect on the other side of the 8 pins directly your LA wires (or eventually scope probes). Have a look at the photo I posted before, this should be clearer than my explanation ;)
EDIT: Typo.. "lock" and not "look".. sorry
What is the connector and where can you buy them? I looked for a long time online without finding anything. I made a new connector using an 8 pin "Dupont" connector, but it doesn't make reliable connections.
My original intent had been to make a probing harness, but I got impatient.
I found the connectors. It's the JST XH series. Digikey carries them. Unfortunately, the crimping tool is *very* expensive.
If that were a M-F pair I could see how you could put grabbers on between the plastic strips. However, I'm not getting reliable connections using female connectors on the male board pins. The header pins on the board are much shorter than the headers in your picture. I cut back the plastic on the F connector, but the sockets don't stay in place when I try to press the connector in place.
You can plug the setup you show into the FP or SB, but they don't work without talking to each other. So I'm still unclear how what you are suggesting would work unless you had a pair of F-F cables.
Which still leaves my question, What is a source for those cable connectors? Or replacement cables.
[edit]
I found the connectors. It's the JST XH series. Digikey carries them. Unfortunately, the crimping tool is *very* expensive.
The captures where made using a DSLogic Basic (55€ on aliexpress) upgraded to the Plus version by adding a 256Mbit RAM Buffer (2€ @mouser). But even the Basic version can stream the Power On initialization sequence with simple Triggers (6 channels@ 50Mhz or 3 signals @100Mhz).
Having the buffer allows you to setup complex triggers (like a specific register value) at higher sampling rates: @400Mhz for 4 signals (You can also activate RLE compression when needed).
- Having an address/data selector pin it's a bit meh, if the registers are always 32bits, it will introduce a minor complication while writing the new firmware …But it is more robust as a falling edge of CS while having RS low always indicates the beginning of a register write command thus insuring synchronization…
- I want to kindly ask you to do an 100MHz sampling "reference" capture for the initialization sequence, the SPI clock it's 18MHz and Shannon may wink from where it is >:DIn streaming mode the LA can sample up to 3 signals @100Mhz and up to 6 @50Mhz (In buffer mode there is no way that it can capture 4.5 sec of signal, even with RLE activated…).
About the On/Off captures and the multiple train of pulses, this sounds a bit weird, I did my captures with CH1 already in the OFF state and counting the pulses for the push to ON, and even if my little LA it's outclassed by the diarrhea of data, it was counting reliably the number of transfers (NCSS going down), putting one transfer more in the trigger settings was not triggering it,This is exactly what I did yesterday (about 15 times I think, maybe more...and @100Mhz) plus the other way (ON to OFF). Don’t forget that :
If you can repeat (again as 100MHz sampling) the measurement with the CH1 already in OFF state before starting measurement I will double grateful.
The captures where made using a DSLogic Basic (55€ on aliexpress) upgraded to the Plus version by adding a 256Mbit RAM Buffer (2€ @mouser). But even the Basic version can stream the Power On initialization sequence with simple Triggers (6 channels@ 50Mhz or 3 signals @100Mhz).
Having the buffer allows you to setup complex triggers (like a specific register value) at higher sampling rates: @400Mhz for 4 signals (You can also activate RLE compression when needed).
Which chip did you use? I like the idea of this kind. ^-^
I have just received my FY6600 (30Mhz) from Aliexpress and ... looks like they have updated the PSU :-)
Hi. I am new to the forum, so a big hello from Paris, France.
I have just received my FY6600 (30Mhz) from Aliexpress and ... looks like they have updated the PSU :-)
I also ordered some IEC connectors at the same time ... but I won't bother making the ground hack : Ground-BNC to Ground-Earth = 300mV :-)
This one : https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/913-4816M16A2TG6AGTR (https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/913-4816M16A2TG6AGTR)
But you then have to either change the USB VID/PID in the program (DSview) or in the onboard eeprom so that it is seen as a "Plus" and not a "Basic" one.
Are you sure? I get a "this product ships free" message for mouser. Did you check mouser.nl or mouser.fr?
I`m crasy with 25 pages tread |O
But tell me in two words please:
Is item have some big problems exept stupid power supply ground?
Is it good for money?
Why nowbody didnt rehouse it in metal enclosure with external quiet 60Hz transformer PS?
As others have said, the thing has a terrible firmware flaw and it self-destroys after some power-cycles, and we're fighting and struggling either reverse or reproduce the front panel firmware, Feeltech put there some kind of "salami pricing" to differentiate models.
Sanx a lot!
What is alternative avaliable at EBAy?
Hi Guillaume,
welcome to the forum .
That sounds like good news ,maybe the original supply was responsable for the dodgy batch ,
I said I might as well repost this image from a previous comment for the purposes of comparison.
not the greatest of images ,maybe theres a better one to be found .
--
Sorry for the lack of bit bashing from me but the shack is currently over 45 degrees again :phew:
I have ordered a bus pirate to play with this as well
You REALLY don't want to be using a logic analyzer that samples the signals asynchronously. You want one where the data lines are clocked in by the SPI clock (preferably qualified by chip select). That way you only transfer data that is relevant and at a 18 MHz max data rate.
If you have an analyzer with enough channels, maybe build a shift register front end and clock the whole (48-bit?) transfer into it and have the analyzer grab those.
Hi. I am new to the forum, so a big hello from Paris, France.
I have just received my FY6600 (30Mhz) from Aliexpress and ... looks like they have updated the PSU :-)
I also ordered some IEC connectors at the same time ... but I won't bother making the ground hack : Ground-BNC to Ground-Earth = 300mV :-)
Did you measure AC or DC?
Fremen67, guys, you're still around, not much activity over WE :(.Well this is not exactly what I would say.
Hello everybody, quick update for the startup sequence, it mostly consists of endless reads, WITHOUT sending an address, the readback values are some times a string off zeros or a string of 0x00000001.Should be crystal clear now... :)
Fremen67, guys, you're still around, not much activity over WE :(.Well this is not exactly what I would say.
I decided this Saturday evening to have a one hour session on the FP-FPGA protocol decoding to see what I could find. What happened to me was worse than being attracted by a black hole. My last two evenings where long… my last to nights were short. This thing is more addictive than drugs.
First I decided to add the nor flash into the game. Cybermaus already explained precisely how it was organized, containing the predefined waveforms and the arbitrary waveforms as well. As I did a backup of the flash, I already had the header pins soldered. A quick check at the Flash_CLK pin showed that it was running @ 20Mhz. So definitely a separated SPI bus that has to be connected to the FPGA. Five pins connected later, and after adding a second SPI protocol in the LA configuration, I was able to see the flash talking synchronized with the FPGA-FP telegrams when switching waveforms. So far so good. But that was just the beginning of the black hole thing… Long story short..The service telegrams are now decoded (containing mode, state, setpoints of CH1&CH2) and the Read mechanism from Flash to FPGA, From Flash to FP and Write from FP to Flash is now clear, that is:
1- Direct transfer requests of waveforms from Flash to FPGA (FP don’t see the values)
2- Read requests from flash to FP, FPGA being a letter box
3- Write requests from FP to flash, FPGA being again a letter box (when using the PC software)
All the captures I made showed a combination of those mechanisms in Power On, ON/OFF, waveform selection, setpoint modification telegrams.
There is also a specific telegram when in Measure Mode but it is much simpler and smaller, for reading counter, frequency and the 2 half parts of a cyclic input signal.
You will find attached a description overview of the registers, new ones, some of them still to be identified, others already identified by DC1MC who also already explained the register write mechanism.
With this file, every one should be able to decode almost all the messages that we captured. The main missing registers are used during the power ON sequence, I suppose for initialization purposes but no clue for them at the moment.
I will post some other documents later on too that might help understanding the mechanism and will also try to explain more precisely the read/write protocol.
Not sure how long I will stay awaken ...
Enjoy!Hello everybody, quick update for the startup sequence, it mostly consists of endless reads, WITHOUT sending an address, the readback values are some times a string off zeros or a string of 0x00000001.Should be crystal clear now... :)
With that being said, in light of Fremen67's work, can we get an update on what still needs to be done? What tasks are left, and what unknowns still exist? I would like to contribute, but I don't yet know what I should be doing.
Fremen67, guys, you're still around, not much activity over WE :(.Well this is not exactly what I would say.
I decided this Saturday evening to have a one hour session on the FP-FPGA protocol decoding to see what I could find. What happened to me was worse than being attracted by a black hole. My last two evenings where long… my last to nights were short. This thing is more addictive than drugs.
First I decided to add the nor flash into the game. Cybermaus already explained precisely how it was organized, containing the predefined waveforms and the arbitrary waveforms as well. As I did a backup of the flash, I already had the header pins soldered. A quick check at the Flash_CLK pin showed that it was running @ 20Mhz. So definitely a separated SPI bus that has to be connected to the FPGA. Five pins connected later, and after adding a second SPI protocol in the LA configuration, I was able to see the flash talking synchronized with the FPGA-FP telegrams when switching waveforms. So far so good. But that was just the beginning of the black hole thing… Long story short..The service telegrams are now decoded (containing mode, state, setpoints of CH1&CH2) and the Read mechanism from Flash to FPGA, From Flash to FP and Write from FP to Flash is now clear, that is:
1- Direct transfer requests of waveforms from Flash to FPGA (FP don’t see the values)
2- Read requests from flash to FP, FPGA being a letter box
3- Write requests from FP to flash, FPGA being again a letter box (when using the PC software)
All the captures I made showed a combination of those mechanisms in Power On, ON/OFF, waveform selection, setpoint modification telegrams.
There is also a specific telegram when in Measure Mode but it is much simpler and smaller, for reading counter, frequency and the 2 half parts of a cyclic input signal.
You will find attached a description overview of the registers, new ones, some of them still to be identified, others already identified by DC1MC who also already explained the register write mechanism.
With this file, every one should be able to decode almost all the messages that we captured. The main missing registers are used during the power ON sequence, I suppose for initialization purposes but no clue for them at the moment.
I will post some other documents later on too that might help understanding the mechanism and will also try to explain more precisely the read/write protocol.
Not sure how long I will stay awaken ...
Enjoy!Hello everybody, quick update for the startup sequence, it mostly consists of endless reads, WITHOUT sending an address, the readback values are some times a string off zeros or a string of 0x00000001.Should be crystal clear now... :)
Holly rotating cow on 3D gymball, fremen67 are you a younger version of me ^-^ ?!?! I remember ca 35 years ago disassembling the Sinclair Spectrum ROM with just a pencil, a paper notebook and bootleg copy of Z80 manual. Painful, but somehow you wake up in an excellent mood, better than the other thing ;)Younger ... well... as I also remember having done the same kind of stuff on the ZX81 (the model before the Spectrum) in 1981, that is ca 37 years ago, (and I also had the same tools ;D) you could also be the younger one ;)
I would look in to the triang waveform, can you switch sometime form sine to triang, to see it this time at least it updates the waveform in RAM, or it could be as well yet another bug from our FeeTech guys.No problem when switching directly from Sine to Triangle, it updates the waveform in RAM.
What we need now:I have a STM32 dev board that I used some years ago. It may even be the same CPU as the FP. I will hock it and try to send some SPI commands. I would like to check the read sequence with CS RS. I will try with Reg0x18 (cyclic flash status update) as it seems to be the easier to begin with.
- Blue pills board to do a quick serial-to-SPI converter, I'm curious if the Dupont pins are fitting there, then there is no need for connector.
- A set of basic routines, I'll list them there for reference:
= Wait_For_Ready.
= Writer_register
= Set_Register_Address
= Read_Register
And then one level higher routines:
Set_Freq
Set_Level
Set_Offset
Set_Phase
---
and so on
(for the development purposes, these can be emuleted for the moment in a PC program that discuss with the blue pill via serial)
void test_service_telegram(void)
{
fpga_write_register(0x1D,0x00,0x02);
fpga_write_register(0x24,0x00,0x10);
fpga_write_register(0x2B,0x00,0x7FF);
fpga_write_register(0x2C,0x00,0x7FF);
fpga_write_register(0x06,0x00,0x80);
fpga_write_register(0x06,0x00,0x80);
fpga_write_register(0x2D,0x00,0xE65); // 5.00V
// fpga_write_register(0x2D,0x00,0x732); // 2.50V
fpga_write_register(0x2E,0x00,0x00);
// fpga_write_register(0x02,0x03,0x0D40); // 20kHz
fpga_write_register(0x02,0x01,0x86A0); // 10Khz
fpga_write_register(0x01,0x00,0x00);
fpga_write_register(0x04,0x01,0x86A0);
fpga_write_register(0x03,0x00,0x00);
fpga_write_register(0x2F,0x01,0x00);
fpga_write_register(0x30,0x01,0x00);
fpga_write_register(0x05,0x00,0x20);
fpga_write_register(0x38,0x7FF,0xDFFF);
fpga_write_register(0x39,0x7FF,0xDFFF);
fpga_write_register(0x08,0x0F,0xFFFF);
fpga_write_register(0x09,0x0F,0xFFFF);
fpga_write_register(0x37,0x00,0x01);
fpga_write_register(0x37,0x00,0x00);
static void fpga_write_register(uint16_t chRegister, uint16_t chDataMSW, uint16_t chDataLSW)
{
__FPGA_DC_CLR();
__FPGA_CS_CLR();
__FPGA_WRITE_WORD(chRegister);
__FPGA_DC_SET();
__FPGA_WRITE_WORD(chDataMSW);
__FPGA_WRITE_WORD(chDataLSW);
__FPGA_CS_SET();
}
I think the LCD is a standard ILI9340/ILI9341 chip one. These are used very widely. Libraries are no issue for these.Yes that is also my first bet. It definitively has to be widely spread ans cheap. Once the FP schematic is ready, this should be easy to check.
1) Is it really necessary to send a full telegram to change one parameter, what about just sending the SetFrequecy sequence and see if just the frequency changes ? If we can send the parameters individually, that will make a kick-ass sweeping generator /wobbler/antenna analyzer 8).
2) What about programming 65.200MHz, what it's actually the upper limit of the sine wave, hopefully someone with a 30MHz unit will chime-in and try to program 69MHz on it, if it works I have a feeling that the 30MHz cheaper ones will disappear abruptly >:D.
Always nice having a new unit to play with and it stops with a Feeltech logo at boot (Feelbad)Well it passed the test bench OK, whats the matter with that? It just took the quicker route to you by bypassing the tester :-DD
Then off course opening the unit to plug in the FPGA ribbon connector and everything is Feelgood. Strange quality control these guys have :(
Always nice having a new unit to play with and it stops with a Feeltech logo at boot (Feelbad)
Then off course opening the unit to plug in the FPGA ribbon connector and everything is Feelgood. Strange quality control these guys have :(
I am thinking about buying this generator. I like the number of features of this generator for such low price, but I see one disadvantage, maybe you could help me.
I initially decided to buy JSD6600 from FeelTech competitors, they have nice looking rubber buttons on the front panel like typical bench equipment. I expect that using "foil" buttons like on FY6600 it is not so convenient as using real rubber buttons. Could you say something about this? Are they hard to use on the table? Do generator moves when you try to press buttons?
There is another disadvantage — one that could totally outweigh your button concern. If you read back some pages from here, you'll see that this generator could lose its mind unexpectedly, rendering the device inoperative. That's what all the reverse engineering discussion is about.
Hello,Well, that's horrible. Why even bother?
With GPSDO 10 Mhz the accuracy of the counter measurement FY2300H is + 95hz, displayed 10.000.095 Mhz
Diabolo
There is another disadvantage — one that could totally outweigh your button concern. If you read back some pages from here, you'll see that this generator could lose its mind unexpectedly, rendering the device inoperative. That's what all the reverse engineering discussion is about.
...Except that V3.2, the version currently being delivered from higher turnover sources, does not seem to show this problem.
Any body in Europe or otherwise (shipping :() who is willing to send their bricked unit or front panel to me for software testing?
I like to keep my unit working for comparison of features while testing out all functions. Will send it back when wanted or needed or when the software is up to par.
Paying €70 for a 15Mhz unit is a bit of waste in my opinion.
I finished the the reverse engineering of the front panel of my unit, just need to draw the schematics in some tool. Eagle is what I use normally for these tiny schematics.
Any body in Europe or otherwise (shipping :() who is willing to send their bricked unit or front panel to me for software testing?
I like to keep my unit working for comparison of features while testing out all functions. Will send it back when wanted or needed or when the software is up to par.
Paying €70 for a 15Mhz unit is a bit of waste in my opinion.
I finished the the reverse engineering of the front panel of my unit, just need to draw the schematics in some tool. Eagle is what I use normally for these tiny schematics.
Mine isn't bricked but is definitely doing more weird things than others; I still think some of the relays are bad.
You are welcome to my unit - where are you?
Mark
G0MGX
With the FW my unit was delivered with (3.2), clicking the encoder wheel with the selector on the frequency line (F1) changes the units between HZ, KHz, MHz, and uHz. In case anyone hasn't noticed that.I had not noticed that, thanks, I do not like that standard KHz readout, and once I was stuck on uHz readout. 10000000000000uHz :palm:
Anyone know how to change the modes the channels default to at power up? I don't really wagood enough.In the SYS->MORE menu, there is a "boot" for CH1 and CH2.
Reply #671 gives a link to a user manual for the FY6600 but that manual is V2.2 from July, 2017 and the FeelTech home page has what appears to be the latest v2.9 from August, 2017. The date on the download link for the FY6600 English manual says 2017-10-17.
http://en.feeltech.net/index.php?case=archive&act=list&catid=6 (http://en.feeltech.net/index.php?case=archive&act=list&catid=6)
Hi guys , I am also waiting for my FY 6600 .
I have found this thread shortly after I was pay for this , so ...too late .
@DerKammi did you have paid custom tax for your ? I was ordered through Banggood .
For a new control board this ready made solutions can short time or at least may help :
https://www.embedded-wizard.de/high-performance-gui-hmi-for-stm32f7-discovery.html (https://www.embedded-wizard.de/high-performance-gui-hmi-for-stm32f7-discovery.html)
With the demo version you can compile a working interface that can be uploaded to STM board .
They have even a demo of a signal generator interface here :
https://www.embedded-wizard.de/files/cto_layout/img/demo/webgl/WaveformGenerator/EmWiApp.html (https://www.embedded-wizard.de/files/cto_layout/img/demo/webgl/WaveformGenerator/EmWiApp.html)
Or Nextion smart displays which can send commands through Serial interface
https://nextion.itead.cc/ (https://nextion.itead.cc/) - This has free IDE and serial communication .
Many appreciations about your great work !
Maybe you should try to get refunds on your FY6600s.
Unless I'm getting something wrong, I'm gathering that ones that are working could self destruct at any time?
Do I have this right? Does its firmware corrupt itself?
I am happy to perform whatever stepwise procedures I can on my unit, to the extent that will help out. The STM32 attack paper (https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/woot17/woot17-paper-obermaier.pdf) is interesting reading but I lack the skill to have much hope of implementing the authors' "cold boot" attack on my own.
But I would like to mention that the most obvious board to redevelop for is not some "yet another" board, but simply the panel included with the FY6600Yes, and before using the FP as dev board, any STM32F103c8t6 like this one will be perfect https://fr.aliexpress.com/premium/STM32F103c8t6.html?d=y&origin=y&blanktest=0&tc=ppc&initiative_id=SB_20180205135516&isViewCP=y&catId=0 (https://fr.aliexpress.com/premium/STM32F103c8t6.html?d=y&origin=y&blanktest=0&tc=ppc&initiative_id=SB_20180205135516&isViewCP=y&catId=0)
After all, if you clear the F103, it is just as good as new, and just as much/little work to program then any other STM32 F0, F1, F7 board. All we need to do is figure out the GPIO pin to button mapping, but you would have to make such a map on a completely new board also.
So my advise/request: please do all redevelopment on a F103 with similar GPIO mapping so it fits the original.
Yes very usefull. Even the PC software source code seems to be included.Reply #671 gives a link to a user manual for the FY6600 but that manual is V2.2 from July, 2017 and the FeelTech home page has what appears to be the latest v2.9 from August, 2017. The date on the download link for the FY6600 English manual says 2017-10-17.
http://en.feeltech.net/index.php?case=archive&act=list&catid=6 (http://en.feeltech.net/index.php?case=archive&act=list&catid=6)
The PC control software is now also up to v5.5 (may be worth trying the repair_sine option again?), and other documents include detailed descriptions of the PC -> Device serial communication and arbitrary waveform data transfer protocols, which might come in useful.
Some updates: I have now written the basic functions for the FPGA (register read/write, flash erase/write/read) some macro functions (waveforms read/write and resample for display), a startup function like the original one (flash test, FPGA init, Waveform loading for the FPGA), and I am able to command the FPGA from my STM32 dev board.
I have not seen any model related limitation in the FPGA: increasing to 110Mhz the frequency of a sine wave ... outputs a 110Mhz sine wave (well, not the prettiest one :))
As the serial protocol is documented, I have now connected my dev board to the other ribbon cable (serial link) and am working on programming the basic serial functions so that I can use the PC Software to control the FPGA through the dev board.
We should have shortly the basic tools needed to go on with the next parallel steps, which could be:
- Working on the GUI directly on the FP (which could directly use FPGA functions already tested with the serial protocol)
- Describing remaining high level functions (like sweep done by the FP...)
- Extending internal functions Library (Modulation, sweep, input, ...)
- Extending serial protocol functions
- Working on a new PC Software
- ...
Of course we will have to choose a toolchain before. At the moment I use Keil µvision with my dev board (with STM32F10x_StdPeriph_Lib_V3.5.0) but other choices could be fine as well (arduino with STM32duino for example could also be fine and easy for upgrades). We also have to see what kind of LCD is used...
But I would like to mention that the most obvious board to redevelop for is not some "yet another" board, but simply the panel included with the FY6600Yes, and before using the FP as dev board, any STM32F103c8t6 like this one will be perfect https://fr.aliexpress.com/premium/STM32F103c8t6.html?d=y&origin=y&blanktest=0&tc=ppc&initiative_id=SB_20180205135516&isViewCP=y&catId=0 (https://fr.aliexpress.com/premium/STM32F103c8t6.html?d=y&origin=y&blanktest=0&tc=ppc&initiative_id=SB_20180205135516&isViewCP=y&catId=0)
After all, if you clear the F103, it is just as good as new, and just as much/little work to program then any other STM32 F0, F1, F7 board. All we need to do is figure out the GPIO pin to button mapping, but you would have to make such a map on a completely new board also.
So my advise/request: please do all redevelopment on a F103 with similar GPIO mapping so it fits the original.
Of course we will have to choose a toolchain before. At the moment I use Keil µvision with my dev board (with STM32F10x_StdPeriph_Lib_V3.5.0) but other choices could be fine as well (arduino with STM32duino for example could also be fine and easy for upgrades). We also have to see what kind of LCD is used..
I have not seen any model related limitation in the FPGA: increasing to 110Mhz the frequency of a sine wave ... outputs a 110Mhz sine wave (well, not the prettiest one :))62.5MHz should be pretty still. And 125MHz should be better then 110MHz.
A bad 110MHz sine is expected off course since the 165MHz DAC, but the limit is not there. Very nice all in all.The DAC is actually overclocked to 250MHz. But 4 samples per sine is really the minimum, so practically 60 (62.5) MHz would indeed be the max.
I don't see the firmware specified anywhere when ordering one. Any way to be sure I get the latest 3.2 firmware?Uhmm, ask the seller :-// ? I did so, and still got 3.1, they don't give a rat behind. :-\
Putting this in an STM32duino toolchain is a novel but interesting suggestion. But it would mean all your code so far has to be rewritten right? Painful.Not really. I tried not to code it the way my grandmother would have done it ;). The FPGA functions are in a library which does not access directly GPIOs, and low level functions calls (SPI) are macros defined outside the library in a config file.
Then again, it has the advantage that people can more easily make local mods, or even do a quick temp hardcode of some sort of "special signal train" by coding very fast changes directly to the FPGA. After all, everybody and their grandmother know how to slightly mod an pre-existing Arduino program.That is exactly the point, except that we are just talking to the FPGA not programming it.
If it works, it would make it easier for someone else to pick up should you (heaven forbid) loose interest.Exactly my point again but it would be more a lack of time than a lost of interest.
I know it was talked about, but did anyone already map out all the buttons and connections of the FB?
If not, I may have a go at that, but I do not want to be doing duplicate work.
Especially the use of PA11;12; PC12;13;14;15 may be important to figure out to see if STM32duino could run on this board (with a standard bootloader)
Yet another upload alternative would be STLink on PA13/14. Are those free at least? Probably they are, I bet its how they program in the factory.I did not use the arduino bootloader last time as the flash memory is already pretty small. I just used the STlink for download. That's a cheap and convenient solution.
Soldering in a standard STLink header would not be a bad idea anyway. And a clone STlink is cheap enough to permanently mount one inside the device
BTW: I thought of a disadvantage to STM32duino: it may be a low threshold. But it does not have a proper debug function where we can step through the code.That's right but not really a big deal. I am more concern about the code size limitation of the free version of Keil for future developments.
If we have to integrate a STLink anyway, maybe Keil is not so bad afterall. (I say 'we' but I am not actually writing code. This is all just musings for your consideration, fremen67)
Just made the first draft, not all is in, but keys,leds and LCD (pdf).Well done :-+ Very promising!
Leds are for power and CH1,CH2 on/off
The ST-Link is on JK1 so that is the one to use in my opinion. Standard four pin ST-Link (image).
Serial to the back are on PA2 and PA3
I like the idea of using the Atollic TrueSTUDIO mentioned earlier in this topic, worth checking/trying out, its free as of the new version.I never used it but I will try. My project should already be compatible with it.
I don't see the firmware specified anywhere when ordering one. Any way to be sure I get the latest 3.2 firmware?Mine has arrived Monday and has 3.2 . It was ordered on 24 Jan.
Wow Skander ,I ordered from Banggood and I have paid 1,43 E for option "European Direct Mail" .
That was quick ,I ordered on the 15th Jan but still no sign and I have a trail of other packages ordered mid December about half a dozen of which still havent landed .
I was reading up a few other articles on busting open Stm32's ,maybe another angle worth looking at might be the update for the sine
wave issue ,there must be a facility to re-write some portion of the code on the device for this to work ,so maybe its another attack vector worth considering .
Wow Skander ,
That was quick ,I ordered on the 15th Jan but still no sign and I have a trail of other packages ordered mid December about half a dozen of which still havent landed .
I was reading up a few other articles on busting open Stm32's ,maybe another angle worth looking at might be the update for the sine
wave issue ,there must be a facility to re-write some portion of the code on the device for this to work ,so maybe its another attack vector worth considering .
I don't see the firmware specified anywhere when ordering one. Any way to be sure I get the latest 3.2 firmware?Mine has arrived Monday and has 3.2 . It was ordered on 24 Jan.
Busting open the STM32 has been tried for this version, you should look 1-2 pages back, due to the fact that the JTAG interface shares the pins with the SWI interface we're using too much time switching the interfaces and lose the race, ......
There is still a chance to replace the STM32 quarz with external very slow clock source, but the prognosis is not so good.
So far, if there is no hidden external command over the serial line to overwrite the STM32 firmware than the only solution is to write a new one.
Frontpanel schematic are done :) Offcourse some faults can be there and the PA0 signal going to the FPGA is unknown to me as of yet.:-+
The transistors for driving the buzzer and backlight are probably MOSFETs, but I found these first :)
On to the main PCB :D
Open On-Chip Debugger
> reset halt
target state: halted
target halted due to debug-request, current mode: Thread
xPSR: 0x01000000 pc: 0x08000144 msp: 0x20004bb8
> flash banks
#0 : stm32f1x.flash (stm32f1x) at 0x08000000, size 0x00000000, buswidth 0, chipwidth 0
> flash probe 0
device id = 0x20036410
STM32 flash size failed, probe inaccurate - assuming 128k flash
flash size = 128kbytes
flash 'stm32f1x' found at 0x08000000
>
That is correct, this is what is in the library, Lazy mode.
Only difference is flash size, the c8 has 64k instead of the 128k in de cb. Pinout is the same.
As mentioned, the only difference between the C8T6 and CBT6 is 64KB vs 128KB flashYes I also have a mix of C8T6 and CBT6 boards. Not a big deal when you are insured to have the minimum specs.
But in fact, most C8T6 (blue-pill) users (almost all) (http://wiki.stm32duino.com/index.php?title=Blue_Pill#128_KB_flash_on_C8_version)report it has 128KB anyway..
fremen67: Do you have any documentation for the FPGA comms. to share for on the Git? Or some code even? Don't mind if it is tidy or not. Just want to have a look.Sure. All my "working" notes are in an excel file. The summary sheet is the pdf file I posted some days ago. Maybe not the best format to put on a github... but I suppose for the moment beeing you can post the pdf file as is...
I just came across this:This is the 30MHz version. You may search for "rd jds6600" on Aliexpress and you will find the 5 models 15, 30, 40, 50 and 60MHz of this JDS6600 series products. The psu is 5V/2A. It needs at least stable 5V/1200mA to start and run properly. I have this rd JDS6600 and the FeelTech FY6600.
https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Precision-Digital-Dual-channel-DDS-Function-Signal-Generator-Arbitrary-Waveform-Pulse-Signal-Generator-1Hz-100MHz/32835207150.html (https://www.aliexpress.com/item/High-Precision-Digital-Dual-channel-DDS-Function-Signal-Generator-Arbitrary-Waveform-Pulse-Signal-Generator-1Hz-100MHz/32835207150.html)
But with an external linear 5V psu you can easily omit the known high voltage to earth problem with the JDS6600.Not sure if that is true. An external switched PSU has the same problem as an internal one. The only thing is you can more easily switch out a cheap one for a better one, but they both will have leakage through the mandatory capacitor.
Hi DerKammi,Hi pauluzs,
Couldn't find a overview of the serial commands on the git.
See attached speadsheet
That is why I wrote an external LINEAR psu. I replaced the external smpsu with a linear one and everything is fine.But with an external linear 5V psu you can easily omit the known high voltage to earth problem with the JDS6600.Not sure if that is true. An external switched PSU has the same problem as an internal one. The only thing is you can more easily switch out a cheap one for a better one, but they both will have leakage through the mandatory capacitor.
Hi DerKammi ,
Looks like your Github post comes up top of the list when I search 'FY6600' now .
With a bit of luck it should draw in a few more people interested in our cause and with it maybe some extra inspiration and technical wizardry too .
Sure. All my "working" notes are in an excel file. The summary sheet is the pdf file I posted some days ago. Maybe not the best format to put on a github... but I suppose for the moment beeing you can post the pdf file as is...
For the code you can post the FPGA Library (FPGA.c) plus a module I used for testing puposes (Tests.c surprisingly :)) This might help understand the FPGA library which should already be understandable by itself. At least I hope :P
The next module I will post will be the serial protocol which will be less interesting as already documented by Feeltech. Maybe you could also post the original document from Feeltech ...
I have made and change a linear PSU for my FeelTech FY6600 .
Biete Meßgeräte
(Anzeigen-Nr.: 514605) 2-Kanal DDS Signalgenerator Feeltech FY6600-60
Ich biete einen unbenutzten Signalgenerator vom Typ FY6600 an. Es handelt sich um die 60MHz-Ausführung. Informationen dazu finden sich reichlich im Internet. Das Gerät wurde nur einmal zum Funktionstest eingeschaltet. Es arbeitet mit der Firmware V3.2. Preis 70 Euro inkl. Versand innerhalb von DL.
9.2.18 - 11:06 Uhr Karsten Hansky - DL3HRT
dl3hrt@aatis.de
Has anyone who has gone to a linear PSU done any measurements that demonstrate improvements to stability, distortion, jitter, amplitude vs frequency or any other characteristics? I am mulling the possibility but haven't seen enough justification yet. My limit has been grounding the SMPS common to stop it biting.
I don't see the firmware specified anywhere when ordering one. Any way to be sure I get the latest 3.2 firmware?
Sending all parameters on any change is a good idea. It makes the FPGA code much simpler.
I ordered one from eBay about 10 days ago and it came with 3.2.1 firmware
@TopLoser: Would you be able to dump the flash memory? :)
Maybe to get something back for your efforts you could consider offering pre programmed Stm32's .Thank you, that's kind of you but it has to remain free. A matter of principle :)
Since I also have a second unit but waiting on my ST-Link I would like to try out the code you made when possible.No problem. I will send you homework ;)
While not at all urgent, please remember that one of the features of the FY6600 is the ports on the backside. So you may want to keep that in mind when designing the data-structures and things that you 'foresee' for the future.Those functions are handeld directly by the FPGA as far as I know. I already documented all the related commands in my first pdf more than2 weeks ago :P
I do not think anyone mentioned them in a while, or mapped out their SPI protocols.
@fremen67, if you have some capture for square wave settings or other interesting signals, please post them here, I'll love to get some eyes on them.OK I will see what signal could be interresting to check.
Since I also have a second unit but waiting on my ST-Link I would like to try out the code you made when possible.No problem. I will send you homework ;)
@all of you: Thank you for your support and your kind words :)
Has anyone done a mod to improve the frequency stability? My new unit FY6600 v3.2 has frequency jitter of about 5Hz at 10MHz. My older JDS6600 is around 1/10 of that at 0.5Hz
Slow goings on the schematics of the main PCB. Lot of parts needing drawing which takes up quite some time. But the start is there.
Got the FPGA part from Farnell, not sure about the pinning sorted by banks in the way they did. May need to rearrange that for a more clean schematic.
Slow goings on the schematics of the main PCB. Lot of parts needing drawing which takes up quite some time. But the start is there.
Slow goings on the schematics of the main PCB. Lot of parts needing drawing which takes up quite some time. But the start is there.
Got the FPGA part from Farnell, not sure about the pinning sorted by banks in the way they did. May need to rearrange that for a more clean schematic.
Hello,
@Ebel0410.
Thanks for the schema a power supply.
The symbol for 1n5819 and YG911S2 is not correct, it indicates a zener diode but it is a rectifying diode.
Regards,
Diabolo
Here it is.
I don't have double checked all the components values.
This schematic shows the upgraded version I made by myself (the new values are in red).
The stock values are also mentioned.
(edited)
@Ebel, the relais routing is a bit strange to me as the common contact looks weird up until now. If you can draw that out that would help me. A photo from a paper drawing is fine.
Here's a photo with the upgraded PSU.
Slightly higher current and extra caps and inductors on the +/- rails .
I tried the version 5.5 software ,one weird thing was that it seems not to respond when I switch on or off the channels via the front panel ,not sure if this is only one way communication here.
With regard to the circuit at Reply #791: at the THS3002 amp, the gain figure is 3.986 with a 10K input termination resistor and 4.006 without this resistor; changing this resistor to 33K results in a 3.999951 gain factor which is very close to a perfect 4.
Notably, the sine filter is not switchable and that there appears to be no frequency compensation including through full scale DAC current control for high frequencies.
To preserve waveform fidelity without the need to change waveform data depending on the output level range, the output levels are set by controlling full scale DAC current via its external voltage reference pin which the level is set by an auxiliary DAC.
There is significant jitter at output frequencies which have a division ratio at anything other than an integer against the DAC clock (fixed at 250 MHz) e.g. 250 MHz / 50 MHz = division of 5 has no jitter under ideal conditions while 250 MHz / 40 MHz = division of 6.25 has significant jitter (1.6 MHz).
I still don't know why the DAC clock is fixed at 250 MHz... an Arduino bootloader could be customized for the ARM microcontroller so that we can load custom firmware easily.
I still don't know why the DAC clock is fixed at 250 MHz... an Arduino bootloader could be customized for the ARM microcontroller so that we can load custom firmware easily.
Output frequency calibration.
....
It was very simple: I asked FeelTech.
Dear Soundtec,
As they say: If you do not knock - nobody opens a door.
It was very simple: I asked FeelTech.
73, Val
So I ordered one of these. Waiting on delivery.
I scan read the thread. It's cheap, has some minor issues, that's fine. The only current use case I have is testing circuits in the audio range, maybe testing a few ultra sonic filters.
Can anyone explain to me if the PSU issues are safe or do I really need to replace it? If I do need to replace it, would a PC PSU do the job, it has +-12V and +5V obviously.
For some reason I'm thinking that there would be some interest for a self designed linear PSU. Just an idea.
@Fremen67: not wanting to push, but do you have any homework for me yet? My ST-Link clones arrived yesterday and are upgraded to the latest firmware. So time to flash these units :DI had a busy week at work. It seems it's always like that when you want to take some days off :)
@fremen67: I have a small question, do we really need to change the parameters fully to change just one, or for example the frequency can be changed by just one register operation or register operation + reload registers trigger, so just 2 register write, I'm curious haw fast one can sweep the frequency/phase ?Sorry I missed your question. No you don't need to send all the parameters each time. No trigger required except fot the phase. So just one register write most of the time.
Here is the schematic update. Onto the digital part.:-+ Well done.
Output frequency calibration.Brilliant. Adjusting frequency sends new values to registers 0x25 to 0x2A which are used during start up :-+
It is possible that I missed a similar discussion before.
Many people complain about frequency accuracy and stability of FY6600.
After about 20-30 min frequency is relatively stable, but a reference oscillator lacking accuracy. My generator, for example, has 50,000,215 Hz reference frequency. It is no means to adjust this oscillator.
At the same time FY6600 allows for the output frequency calibration by firmware using the following procedure:
1. Put the back main switch in “OFF” position.
2. Press simultaneously “Power” and “CH1” buttons on the front panel and put the back main switch in “ON” position.
3. Waite 3-4 seconds and release both front buttons.
4. On CH1 select the highest output frequency for your generator model. Set an amplitude of 0,3-1,0 V.
5. Press “SYS” and then “More”.
6. Now on the screen you can see “Oscillator” and on display 10.000.000.000 MHz
7. Press F5 to go to frequency calibration.
8. Connect a frequency meter to CH1 output.
9. Using cursor and the dial obtain reading of the frequency meter the same as set on the generator. If measured frequency is lower – dial should be rotated CCW, if higher – CW.
After calibration press the “Dial” and then CH1 to return to normal operation.
73, Val
Is there an easy to source alternative to replace the PSU inside?
Yeah spending 50% of the cost of the unit on upgrading the psu doesnt make any sense
I still have a unpopulated spot on my EE jumper where the "Built my own PSU" badge goes. Building a linear mains +-12V +5V supply sounds like a nice project.
I still have a unpopulated spot on my EE jumper where the "Built my own PSU" badge goes. Building a linear mains +-12V +5V supply sounds like a nice project.
Will there you go! Finding transformers you like are usually the hardest part.
I still have a unpopulated spot on my EE jumper where the "Built my own PSU" badge goes. Building a linear mains +-12V +5V supply sounds like a nice project.
Will there you go! Finding transformers you like are usually the hardest part.
Yes. That and when you look up "How do I pick a transformer" I realise I also lack the "I understand calculus" badge. :( AC sucks.
The whole VA rating thing might as well be Voodoo to me. I'm left looking for transformers that have a "Maximum secondary current" spelled out in the datasheet.
Finding a multi-secondary to provide 2x12V + 1x5V seems a next to impossible to.
Probably need another thread in Beginners, but... can I not just drop the +12V side down to 5V with a reg? Can I just series the 2x12V from the transformer and take the centre point at common?
I still have a unpopulated spot on my EE jumper where the "Built my own PSU" badge goes. Building a linear mains +-12V +5V supply sounds like a nice project.
Will there you go! Finding transformers you like are usually the hardest part.
Yes. That and when you look up "How do I pick a transformer" I realise I also lack the "I understand calculus" badge. :( AC sucks.
The whole VA rating thing might as well be Voodoo to me. I'm left looking for transformers that have a "Maximum secondary current" spelled out in the datasheet.
Finding a multi-secondary to provide 2x12V + 1x5V seems a next to impossible to.
Probably need another thread in Beginners, but... can I not just drop the +12V side down to 5V with a reg? Can I just series the 2x12V from the transformer and take the centre point at common?
"Versand: Möglicherweise kein Versand nach Niederlande"
I am assuming the same for UK
@paulca
Does your local municipal recycle centre allow you to browse/takeback brown goods?
Mine does not anymore, so you have to be sneaky. (they claim they can be held responsible if they allow people to take back faulty stuff)
But if so, typical non-digital era audio amplifiers/preamps have transformers in them that have +/- 15 V for the amp stuff, as well as usually a 12V or 6V rail for auxiliary stuff.
Or you can spend money and get those new (https://www.ebay.com/sch/i.html?_from=R40&_sacat=0&_nkw=r-core+transformer&_sop=15), but personally I always feel extra pride/smart/aware by repurposing old stuff.
Output frequency calibration.
...
Brilliant. Adjusting frequency sends new values to registers 0x25 to 0x2A which are used during start up :-+
I don't know what is inside but we now have a way to find out.
That could mean a way with a lookup table minimize jitter perhaps?
I tried every search under the sun on ebay and it never shows me transformers I want. That r-core search showed loads. I conclude that ebay search is rubbish. How come "Transformer 2 x 13 VAC" doesn't find anything, but there are literallly hundreds of r-core transformers with 2 x 13 VAC in the title... and the related items show non r-core transformers with similar outputs. Grrr.
Well I bought the german ebay one, but I have to ask the seller if they will ship the UK.
I put the request in English and Googlese German:
Können Sie an eine britische Adresse versenden?
Not sure if it would break your "badge earning rules" but to complete it, have you seen these (https://www.ebay.com/itm/322598834251)
I have a couple of those, cybermaus (15v and 12v), and the ouputs are not very well balanced (something like +12.0, -12.7 on the 12v model). When I made my linear I went for the variable voltage version so that I could ensure that the outputs were balanced, and also to give flexibility to increase the outputs up to +/-15v if a future mod should require it. The board is a lot bigger, but it still fits nicely in the case with a 15v/9v r-core transformer (as you can see from the photo I posted a couple of pages back).Odd. They are 7912's, how are they able to mess that up?
If you want to build your own, it's still cheaper to buy the kits from China to get the parts, then do your own layout on Veroboard.Which then negates that. Maybe the other way around, buy a new local 7912 and solder it onto the chinese PCB.
The only reason I keep buying it (when not in a hurry) is that if I buy local, it is also junk from china, just someone else did the ordering for me.
Unless if Mouser of course. But you know, €20 handling fee, always.
I do sometimes order with them, but not the small stuff.
Is the CMOS not just simply a quick way to set a signal level square?Yes security for the DUT was the point. In the new firmware, I have at least 3 options: either I just reset the offset when selecting CMOS (as a positive offset could also leads to destruction of the DUT) or I send a null offset when the CMOS function is in use... or I just let it like this and this will be secured later on with min and max output parameters for all functions... The last one beeing my prefered ATM.
Possibly the only special thing is: If you increase Vpp, it does not dive negative.
Whereas if you make your own 3.3Vpp 1.65Voffset square, and increase to 5Vpp, it would accidentally go negative first, before you remembered to also change offset to 2.5V
(I have had that problem, luckily my DUT survived)
But to be honest: I feel all waveforms should consider that 0V case. If I have a Vpp and Offset such that Vbottom is 0V or even positive, then merely changing Vpp should not make it negative. Or some sort of boundary setting. (edit, reading back, I realize you were saying the same)
Tiny update from my sideBetter each time :-+
Absolutely no need to be intimidated by the numbers when calculating power supplies Paulca.
Take your winding voltage ,multiply it by 1.4 ,now from this you have to subtract the losses across the diodes in the bridge ,then you'll still have to allow at least a few volts extra so that whatever regulator you have can function effectively without dropouts .
Google Duncans PSUd 2.
Best o luck.
Choices, choices.....So then we could go for a mix: Protection via min/max voltage (to be set before connecting the DUT...) and then anyway sending null offset (without loosing the value) when in CMOS.
I do feel that going from any wave to CMOS should avoid going over 3.3 (5) or below 0, unless you specifically set that.
But I also feel that having set Vpp and offset, and then walking from Sine to Triangle or so, should not loose your values because you happened to walk past CMOS
To be honest, I think apart from your idea to set an optional per channel DUT voltage safety window, when walking through the waveforms they should not immediately apply, but only after you confirm. So you can go from one wave to the other, without generating all the waveforms in-between. This is unlike walking through frequencies, which of course should immediately apply.
In fact, in the hope that FeelTech would pick it up, a good while back I already mentioned (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1335080/#msg1335080) that pressing the Wave button is auto-advancing, which is wrong anyway:Yes indeed. You can imagine the following:
Right now, if I am on Square, and I want to go to Sine (one to the left), I always first have to go to CMOS (one to the right) and then go 2 back. Just plain silly.
Tiny update from my sideBetter each time :-+
May I suggest these modifications?
W16: DC_AMPL_CH2_OFFSET
W3: DC_AMPL_CH2_GAIN
W26: DC_AMPL_CH1_OFFSET
W5: DC_AMPL_CH1_GAIN
Yes indeed. You can imagine the following:
- 1 push on wave button: highlight wave selection (selection mode)
- another push on wave button: cancel selection mode
When in selection mode:
Turn rotary knob to go through waves without modifying the current one (wave plot having another colour to show selection mode active)
Confirm your choice by pushing the rotary knob..
I don't order from Mouser, but RS Components or for a sizable order Farnell. RS have free shipping and no handling charge for any size of order including a single 0.1p resistor technically. Though you would feel like a bit of a dick doing that to them.
Trying to find a good economically priced small transformer with two suitable secondaries small enough to go in the FY6600's case is like trying to find a needle in a haystack with eBay's useless search engine, but I located this one - it's a low-profile R-core transformer of 30VA rating, the two 9V secondary windings can be connected in parallel IF you are careful of course to give 9V @ 1.4A. Best of all, it has an inter-winding screen as well!
As you've got an adjustable 12 - 15v supply, and as you can't guarantee that the 5v module will actually deliver 5v, why not allow yourself some leeway and get the LM317 version for a few pence extra, then you can dial in whatever exact voltage you want? (I set mine to 5.1v to give a little extra headroom for the regulators on the main board to play with). I didn't use the 5k pot that comes with it, but mounted a multiturn trimpot on a piece of veroboard and put that in its place. I also left off the switch, and the big spring connectors (I used a screw connector block instead).
I tried out Fremens tweeked software earlier ,thats really handy that it runs seamlessly with the original , even the small changes to the look of it so far is a big improvement over the original ,the white text on black/grey backround looks great ,and the bigger waveform window helps too .
The links I've provided refer to kit items, to facilitate substitution of higher quality electrolytic capacitors in the designs, etc. I believe the maximum current ratings of these kits are suitable for adequately powering the FY6600's electronics, but please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong!
Colleagues, I do not see the point of changing the switching power supply in the generator. After it there are linear stabilizers. The only thing that makes sense is the ferrite rings on the cable that connects the power supply to the main board and place the power supply inside the metal screen. All the rest does not make sense.
To open source software via reverse engineering it must be done in white/clean room conditions with no access to the original code.
This might be considered "salami pricing". The company I used to work for made a product to read electrical power meters. They also made a reader/programmer to program these same meters. The reader sold for $3000 and the reader/programmer for $5000. I worked on this line of products so I knew the only difference was the code contained in the eprom that told the unit what to do. I asked a marketing representative how they could justify charging that big difference for basically no physical difference and he told me they were charging for functionality.Exactly.
People don't want to buy a quarter-inch drill; they want a quarter-inch hole.The programmer product had additional functionality that the customer values; it also has additional coding, sales, and support costs on top of what the reader-only unit has. It's not reasonable for a business to solely price products based on the physical cost plus a fixed markup.
I have already a few ideas about implementation of such configuration especially about its DSP part. But now it's time for me going on vacation so I can start this work only as early as end of the March / beginning of the April. So you could consider any new desired functionality for a while and then I try implement it later if possible.Welcome Zov! I would be glad to help :)
Of course without fremen participation all that could not be possible as I am not familiar with FP MCU programming and debugging.
GREAT, going to try this asap. Thanks fremen. Willing to post the source?Thank you! Waiting for your feedback. As soon as it is stable, I will open a github and post the source. I am still working on this version right now. I should have waited some more days to finish it but it is the week-end and I know you want homework ;)
@fremen67 Will the new FW run on the FeelTech FP or is it just a PC UI at this stage? It looks very nice. I got the impression it was PC only, but I've been more focused on my Zynq adventures and haven't kept upIt is both. The firmware is for a bluepill board which by-passes the Feeltech FP but it could also work as well in the Feeltech FP. The UI is the other part, modified Feeltech PC Software to be able to talk to the new FW. The main modification in the PC Software is not only the look of the UI but the fact that it reads back values from the new "FP" when they change, and also allows new functions that have been added (like output range limit for DUT protection). Those functions are handled directly in the new FW, not in the UI.
As I read PM0075 p 19, although the flash is read protected, we can force a mass erase and reprogram the device. Is that correct?Yes the feeltech FP can be reflashed. I have a second unit (15Mhz) that I will reflash later on when working on the LCD part.
I've ordered a couple of the ST Link programmers from eBay. I'm sure I could use one of my dev boards, but when I saw yours I went looking and at $2.54 decided it was well worth having a couple.In fact the bluepill board is not my dev board. I just modified the FW which is running on my dev board (HY-STM32) to run on this low cost board. This should allow every one to give it a try for 2 or 3$.
GREAT, going to try this asap. Thanks fremen. Willing to post the source?Thank you! Waiting for your feedback. As soon as it is stable, I will open a github and post the source. I am still working on this version right now. I should have waited some more days to finish it but it is the week-end and I know you want homework ;)
Thanks for your kind words!
About CYCLONE configuration. I am pretty sure there isn't NIOS processor inside the configuration. It needs a program memory
but the size of the configuration data provides strong evidence that there is only pure configuration without any program code.
NIOS can run from internal memory but there is very little one in used CYCLONE, only 30 kB and that memory is needed for waveform sample storing (see below).
No doubts that existing configuration read waveform samples from the flash into the internal memory buffer (16kB BTW from 32kB available) before
provide that to the output. 250Msamples/s is at the upper limit of the used CYCLONE chip and the flash can't provide that speeds of reading anyway.
About reverse engineering CYCLONE configuration from its uncompressed/compressed data (they only differ by sizeof data, no extra encryption) I think it is out of our capability.
About 3000000 configuration bits needs some automated software tools to restore a source design. And BTW in which forms, Verilog, VHDL, schematic? Didn't hear
about such capabilities anyway.
If we made a new configuration we certainly can made a special mode in it where SPI interface of FP MCU would be directly
translated to the flash pins so no problem reprogramming it with any new data from USB interface.
And last but not least for the moment. I have already a few ideas about implementation of such configuration especially about its DSP part.
But now it's time for me going on vacation so I can start this work only as early as end of the March / beginning of the April. So you could consider any new desired functionality for a while and then I try implement it later if possible.
Of course without fremen participation all that could not be possible as I am not familiar with FP MCU programming and debugging.
Well, power stayed on here, so I think you did something wrong.:-DD
...read waveform samples from the flash into the internal memory buffer (16kB BTW from 32kB available) ...Remember there is two channels. So that would be all 32KB used up, with not a single byte left for anything else.
Remember there is two channels. So that would be all 32KB used up, with not a single byte left for anything else.I forgot about second channels |O thank you! So no memory left for any other tasks. Implementing memory in LABs (it is equivalent to CLB in Altera's parlance) is too costly from resource point of view.
I do not know much about FPGA, but maybe those registers and stuff are not RAM, but CLB & IOB states, and not counted toward its memory?
Considering your remark about 2nd channel I need rethink my plans for implementation somehow.Not sure how serious you are with FPGA redevelop, but if you have that in you and memory is an issue: I for one would be quite happy to go from a 8Ksample AWG to a 4Ks AWG if it would give me more features like: sweep trigger in/out, External sync in/out, etc. Or the holy grail: no jitter (though as you mentioned, not really possible, but you did mention N/M clock ratio's, so with intelligent scheme we could increase the number of sweet spots frequencies)
[
Not sure how serious you are with FPGA redevelop, but if you have that in you and memory is an issue: I for one would be quite happy to go from a 8Ksample AWG to a 4Ks AWG if it would give me more features like: sweep trigger in/out, External sync in/out, etc.
Not sure how serious you are with FPGA redevelop, but if you have that in you and memory is an issue: I for one would be quite happy to go from a 8Ksample AWG to a 4Ks AWG if it would give me more features like: sweep trigger in/out, External sync in/out, etc. Or the holy grail: no jitter (though as you mentioned, not really possible, but you did mention N/M clock ratio's, so with intelligent scheme we could increase the number of sweet spots frequencies)Frankly speaking no issues with memory for the moment, just held it aside as a reserve but alas :(.
You could even go half/half: 8Ks on channel A, 4Ks on channel b (by reading only every other byte from the flash)
It was also part of my reason. Mostly VCO (sweep) but also you never know what you need, so sync in/out BNC and TTL output headers.
Measuring them, it seems to be a simple 1Vpp pulse of the exact frequency of the one you dailed in. One may think that means you can hook up any other generator, but alas, I was unable to make my other generator generate a pulse that this one actually synced to. So it must be rather finicky to set right (I did not try extremely hard)
Measuring them, it seems to be a simple 1Vpp pulse of the exact frequency of the one you dailed in. One may think that means you can hook up any other generator, but alas, I was unable to make my other generator generate a pulse that this one actually synced to. So it must be rather finicky to set right (I did not try extremely hard)If i got it right syncing of multiple units is implemented such a way that a master unit set start phase of waveform generation for all slave units which provide their waveform on their internal reference clocks. It could work well enough for frequencies up to units of megahertz but above an error would be quite appreciable.
And a question: what is the point in making square wave or a waveform with step change without jitter? I have some thoughts how to make a subset of frequency with jitter decreased on order of magnitude (125 ps) but it would be quite limited set anyway. And because of complexity of their implementation it would be certainly very remote perspective.Yeah, I was thinking about the same just now.
How useful?
As I wrote before, the jitter probably does not matter for any actual DUT (unless if you are working really precise stuff)
But it does help a lot it keep your oscilloscope clean and readable, especially in the 5MHz and above range.
Any signal triggered on or based on that jitter makes the screen somewhat difficult to interpret because of the ghost lines.
Well, power stayed on here, so I think you did something wrong.Good news: I had the same problem with my second FY6600. The difference beeing my LA connected on the working one. I disconnected my LA and ... bluepill did not boot anymore....
Only connected 4-wire plus gnd, b14, a1
Same result (both LED solidly on)
Tried 3 startup-modes:
- First power, then USB-UART
- First USB-UART then power
- Both connected, then press reset button
All same result
Also, I had a logic analyzer on the UART, and other then power-on spike, I never got any byte in either direction.
57 4d 46 30 30 31 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 30 | WMF0010000000000
30 0a 0a 52 4d 41 0a 35 30 30 30 30 0a 52 4d 4f | 0..RMA.50000.RMO
0a 30 0a | .0.
Very interesting indeed. That could be the clue. Could you try to add a 10k pull-up resistor on RX and another 10k pull-up resistor on SPI2_MISO?
Not sure if it matters or helps debug, but often when I restart, the PC software comes with a new set of beginning parameters
Maybe some noise on the lines? Too many gnd connections, ground loop?
Most common seems Square 10KHz 2Vpp
But also seen on Channel 1:
squr 10KHz 1.5Vpp 0V
sine 60MHz 5Vpp 0V
sine 2MHz 2Vpp 0V
squr 10KHz 2Vpp 0V
Very interesting indeed. That could be the clue. Could you try to add a 10k pull-up resistor on RX and another 10k pull-up resistor on SPI2_MISO?
(on 3.3V of course).
I will be back in 3 hours. That could help a lot in the meantime.
Some testing, actual errors: (just the one)Thank you for the feedback. I missed this one. A last minute change. Should be corrected in this release.
Chan 1 was set to SQUR, Channel 2 to Sine
I clicked all the sync checkmarks, and though now Channel 2 shows a grayed out SQUR in the PC, it still generated Sine. When stop/start channel 2 it became a SQUR
I assume sweep/mod/counter and fancy stuff like waveform upload are not there yet, right?Waveform upload is there and should work.
Not a SPI guy myself. But some suggestions:
- Lay your wire nice and straight, no spaghetti
- Short wires, no loops, and close together, keep the rainbow-ribbon whole if possible
MISO signal is a source of BP problems. Small capacitor (470pf) to gnd and BP always works. If you have an oscilloscope, check the signal from your device. You should also look at the signal from the original front panel, it is very bad.Well done :-+
We may also add the 2x 300 ohms resistors in serial with TX and RX as it is done in the original Feeltech design (At least I think it is, DerKammi could confirm that.). Not sure this will help a lot for noise but at least this would be identical to original design.
Did you notice any update problem with modified PC Software on startup?
cybermaus noticed random values when launching PC Software, see here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1444331/#msg1444331 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1444331/#msg1444331)Did you notice any update problem with modified PC Software on startup?
Update problem? I do not really know what you mean? I have not noticed any problems.
cybermaus noticed random values when launching PC Software, see here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1444331/#msg1444331 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1444331/#msg1444331)
Well, finally tested the 0.2 version. And it does work nicely thus far. But not on both devices I have.Do they have both a modded power supply? Otherwise you could try swapping the mainboards ...
My own works fine but Mark his unit isn't listening to the BP. When operated with the FP all is fine. Not sure where to start trouble shooting.
Just a though: That was a a broken V3.0 unit, right?Indeed, configurations of FPGA for different version has been changed. I have checked it comparing flash contents for V3.1 and V3.2. They differ in FPGA configuration data part of them.
It is possible the FPGA has smaller or larger changes between the versions, and thus it is possible you need to match FPGA firmware with STM32 firmware. For all we know, they made a small but significant change to the SPI protocol. Maybe you need to bring the FPGA to V3.1
What version did Fremen69 use to develop?
Also the same. Clock is running at the DAC but no data.
Just a though: That was a a broken V3.0 unit, right?Indeed, configurations of FPGA for different version has been changed. I have checked it comparing flash contents for V3.1 and V3.2. They differ in FPGA configuration data part of them.
It is possible the FPGA has smaller or larger changes between the versions, and thus it is possible you need to match FPGA firmware with STM32 firmware. For all we know, they made a small but significant change to the SPI protocol. Maybe you need to bring the FPGA to V3.1
What version did Fremen69 use to develop?
Sure there are undoubtly many other, I am one of them. Great respect for those guys doing a lot of work!
I think I will add another functionality that would be interesting for testing: the possibility to have a fixed output range. This will allow exploring the full output ranges at different frequencies, thus finding the best thresholds for switching the outputs.
This function will also be useful later on if you don't want relays switching during your tests.
A good idea will be to see if we can use the latest FPGA image for older devices, I'm wondering what had happen with the 3.4.1 firmware version, did anybody encountered it again ?
We can flash the Winbond all we want. But no-one ever published 3.2
DerKammi, IIRC it's you who decrypted SB PCB layout and made its circuit diagram. If it don't burden you very much can you trace and depict the following pins of FPGA: MSEL0-3 and all JTAG related TCK, TMS, TDI, TDO. Are they hardwired to PWR/GND , left floating or pull-up/pull-down with resistors? It is crucial for developing/debugging FPGA config.
Thank you. When there is no communication, you see the screen as it is in dev mode. Everything is OK then.cybermaus noticed random values when launching PC Software, see here https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1444331/#msg1444331 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1444331/#msg1444331)
Just tested several times, I always get the right values. Only when generator is offline results are strange, see pic.
Even though I don't know enough to contribute to the software/firmware side of the FY6600, I am following this with great interest. Keep up the good work, I'm sure there are many others watching your progress.
Sure there are undoubtly many other, I am one of them. Great respect for those guys doing a lot of work!
Sure there are undoubtly many other, I am one of them. Great respect for those guys doing a lot of work!
Same here interesting stuff !
fremen, do you know whether there is calibration info send out to the FPGA?No. None that I saw appart from calibration data that are sent when starting up.
Yesterday during testing I saw the PP voltage of a sine drop when I went over 5V, thus switching to the opamp buffer. This will lover the DAC output consequently off course. But the output dropped. I did not notice this when using the FP.At the moment I programmed the same thresholds and used the same scaling factors than the one used in the original FG. The difference in output when changing range is logical as there are not hardware calibration possibility for all the ranges.
I did at some point get annoyed when dialing up the frequency past 20MHz (I think 20 was the limit), and having the Vpp click down from 10Vpp to 5VppYes I understand that this could be annoying at some point but it's the way it is done in several FG I have (Siglent, Hantek, even Feeltech...). This is the "Frequency priority" function and seems to be a standard way to do. When starting the FG you could also be annoyed that you first have to change your voltage to be able to select a frequency...
It should not change the offset or amplitude just because you are changing frequency. Instead, refuse to set the new frequency.
On the other hand, if you want to go up to 30Mhz, and it is not letting you, it would be nice if it indicated why not. Maybe by flashing the amplitude inverted red every time you try to tick past 20MHz. Same if you try and up the amplitude and it will not let you: flash inverted red the frequency or limits.Yes this would be a nice way. I could also add it to the PC Software but it's a matter of time and priority. I will see where I can place it in my Doto list which goes on growing :)
This is not exactly what you asked about of course, but related and I was reminded of it.No problem. This is the exact right place to discuss those things :)
As to locking the relays/range:Yes that was exactly the point.
I noted that when you change frequency, the FPGA does that seamlessly. Not a single sample missed in the signal train, it even stays in phase, just at a higher frequency.
Except when it also changes range, then you loose signal for a few ms while it ticks over. So I can see a locked relay being useful sometimes.
Hey guys, I haven't been able to contribute much, but today maybe that can change.Hey SMB784, Thank you for the proposal. That might become handy.
I was successfully able to get my supplier from eBay to mail me a replacement version 3.2 chip for my working version 3.1 unit. That means that we have a currently functioning 3.1 chip available that we can test and monitor until it fails. Do yall think that this would be helpful in our attempts to fix the firmware problems in 3.1?
I am willing to send this chip anywhere in the world at my own expense if it would help in this effort, once I have received the replacement chip and have verified that it is working and of the correct version.
A good idea will be to see if we can use the latest FPGA image for older devices, I'm wondering what had happen with the 3.4.1 firmware version, did anybody encountered it again ?Yes, I think this would be logical at some point to use the new FW with the latest FPGA version. Maybe not during the BP transition but later on when flashing the FP. Plus it will be easy to update. It might even be updated via a PC front end via the FP (with some risks though).
Cheers,
DC1MC
Hey SMB784, Thank you for the proposal. That might become handy.
I have 2 FY6600 at the moment for tests, a 15Mhz and a 60Mhz version. I am willing to flash the 15Mhz with the new firmware as the idea is that this FY will turn into a dev model.
As you may have read, the CPU is protected and I will have to erase it. So I will then only have one official model that I will keep for test and reference. If something happen to this model, I will be clearly annoyed. I was thinking of replacing the CPU of the 15Mhz version with an empty one and keeping the official as a spare but if I can have an original spare without loosing time with desoldering/resoldering the CPU that would be nice...
That sounds like good news for owners of version 3.1 SMB784, its the first real acknowledgement we've had ,either from the supplier or the manufacturer that there was an issue with 3.1 . Is it a new front panel stm32 ic they are sending you?
Here is a comparison of short term jitter for three signal generators.
...
Am I correct in assuming that the jitter problem for the FY6600 cannot be resolved?
Re: FY6600-M60 jitter.
Hopefully someone here can address this jitter problem, if it at all possible.
Residual FM or short-term jitter of FY6600.
Here is a comparison of short term jitter for three signal generators. Nominal frequency is 10.1398 MHz with each SG offset in frequency a small amount. Shown in the image is a spectrum waterfall (horizontal axis is frequency) with about 2 FFTs per second. Left trace is Marconi 20222D, center is FY6600 and right is cheap ($20) DDS AD9851. Jitter of FY6600 is estimated to be 5 to 6 Hz.
The large jitter in the FY6600 would seem to rule it out for use as a local oscillator in radio projects. Too bad, since many nice applications are based on small FM deviations such as WSPR with 1.46 Hz per symbol.
Tried the FM modulation function of FY6600 with WSPR symbols programmed in Arbitrary waveform for CH2. It worked sometimes but message was lost most of the time.
Am I correct in assuming that the jitter problem for the FY6600 cannot be resolved?
FY6600 used for the test is new, never opened unit with FW version 3.2.
I was also thinking about adding a 50 Ohms mode (at least for mid and high range as low range is not 50 ohms). Or maybe a user defined load if you think it is useful...Explain please. Is it not always already on a 50 Ohm mode?
Explain please. Is it not always already on a 50 Ohm mode?
Point however is, Fremen67 is doing software, and talks about "adding a mode".
So I'd still wonder what he meant exactly.
« 50 Ohms » and « Hi-Z » output load selection are quite common on function generators.I was also thinking about adding a 50 Ohms mode (at least for mid and high range as low range is not 50 ohms). Or maybe a user defined load if you think it is useful...Explain please. Is it not always already on a 50 Ohm mode?
Would you mod the board for other values?
Set CH1 to sine wave with freq as before, 10.1398 MHz.For comparison, here is the unmodified FY6600 results in your settings.
Set CH2 to Square wave with freq 0.25 Hz. (Don't worry about Ampl and Offset as they are not used for internal FM).
Set modulation source to FM from CH2. Use BIAS 00'000'.001'500'000KHz. This will be set modulation depth to 1.5 Hz.
The display is a ILI9341 for 99% sure. The pinout is the classic 18 pin for this type op display. Link for similar display (https://www.solidrop.net/product/free-ship-5pc-lot-2-4inch-spi-tft-lcd-screen-18pin-240-320-color-lcd-drive-ic-ili9341-4io-only-for-stm32-mcu-raspberry-pi.html)Yes it is :)
CF 00 81 30
ED 64 03 12 81
E8 85 10 78
CB 39 2C 00 34 02
F7 20
EA 00 00
B1 00 18
B6 0A A2
C0 21
C1 11
C5 3E 31
C7 AA
36 A8
F2 00
26 01
3A 55
E0 0F 26 24 0B 0E 09 54 A8 46 0C 17 09 0F 07 00
E1 00 19 1B 04 10 07 2A 47 39 03 06 06 30 38 0F
2A 00 00 00 EF
2B 00 00 01 3F
11
29
I'm playing with a F401 nucleo board with a ILI9341 display this week.Nice board . Will you also have time to do some "homework" on the calibration thing?
2 evenings at least. Do you have some wishes in the format you need, a protocol as such?Perfect!
If others can also help and run your protocol, that would help also (cybermaus, DC1MC, DaveR, Kaku, ... any volonteer, depending on your free time, you help will be very much appreciated :))
Capture the longest DSO traces at 1 GS/S that you can in an ASCII format. I'll write spectral analysis routines for Octave/MATLAB. I know how to get *many* more bits of precision out of long signals than even a good SA offers.
The traces will be too long to post. Post a short sample so I can get the read correct and install Octave on your system. I'll post the Octave code so that anyone can do the analysis.
Not sure I have the correct equipment for this. I have no good SA to see dB levels or harmonicsYes exactly something like this. Thank you!
But I surely do not want to ignore this request, I can only guess at how much time you are spending.
Something like this XLS?
Or would you rather have some other X/Y axis values?
I'll use your suggestions, work out the other ranges, and then attach the XLS itself for others to use.
Note:
- voltage levels read from scope
- dB levels calculated
- yellow means visual distortion on sine wave, red means crappy sine wave
I'm a bit limited at the moment, as my ST-Link dongle died yesterday after only about six uses. I've ordered another four from China in the hope that I might get a decent one amongst them, but I probably won't have them for at least ten days.
Dave
This is a lot of work, and I had a lot of distraction today (my boss/colleagues/clients kept bothering me)Perfect :-+
Attached the XLS with -10~+10 hard range and both High-Z and 50 Ohm.
A few notes:
- At 50 Ohm above 10V, the OpAmp is just not cutting it. Rather then trying to correct this (it will not be able to anyway) this needs to be corrected by a better OpAmp and maybe 15V rails in stead of a 12V rails that is to weak as well. Or at the very least a 12V rail with more power.
- Around 10V - 60Hz there is a weird additional negative offset. It also attenuates more, but I think both are caused by the OpAmp cutting of the high crest of the sine more then the low crest of the sine.
- Likely bad sine to the right and bottom is caused by the OpAmp attenuating, toward the left by a weak DAC signal, amplified noise and DAC resolution.
To be honest, Fremen67, I will provide you with the info requested to my best ability, but I wonder if level correction should not be a lower priority. Sweep/Mod/Counter/LCD may be more rewarding features. Will work on 0.275 range next.That is exactly why it is important to have data and think before doing any useless things.
And for some reason it won't generate wave forms this evening >:( Flashed the 0.3 and 0.4 and it will connect fine. But no output. :'(Lot of chances that it is a wiring problem. I also wasted 1 hour last week because I swapped 2 wires when switching configuration...
Was going to fill out Cybermaus his excel to see some diffs maybe. But it is not happening yet :'( :'( :'(
Small intermediate result:I have a perfect 6.12V on mine for 5.5V ;)
The 5.5Vpp in a hard 2.75V range gives such a perfect 6Vpp that I am wondering if you have a coding error in the software.
Also: apparently the 2.75 range is able to go up to 3V
Re: FY6600 Jitter
Insatman... Excellent results!!! Would you do a simple FM modulation test?
Set CH1 to sine wave with freq as before, 10.1398 MHz.
Set CH2 to Square wave with freq 0.25 Hz. (Don't worry about Ampl and Offset as they are not used for internal FM).
Set modulation source to FM from CH2. Use BIAS 00'000'.001'500'000KHz. This will be set modulation depth to 1.5 Hz.
Your SA FFT waterfall should show the 1.5 Hz square wave modulation of the sine wave.
I'm considering your FY6600 modifications. My smd skills are poor. Probably can make the Power Supply mods. But removing the smd oscillator seems beyond me at the moment. If I can get it removed was thinking of tack soldering wires to the new osc module and tacking these wires to PCB. Any comments?
And for some reason it won't generate wave forms this evening >:( Flashed the 0.3 and 0.4 and it will connect fine. But no output. :'(Lot of chances that it is a wiring problem. I also wasted 1 hour last week because I swapped 2 wires when switching configuration...
Was going to fill out Cybermaus his excel to see some diffs maybe. But it is not happening yet :'( :'( :'(
Which output are you referring to? Front panel output could benefit from different op-amps if really needed.I haven't read/followed the whole thread but was aware of the FY6600's existence, seems like you guys are kicking it into shape - good work :D
Back output won't be able to keep up with that high frequency due to a 74HC245 buffer which runs at typical 55 MHz max. so 60 is maxing it out pretty much.
Which output are you referring to? Front panel output could benefit from different op-amps if really needed.I haven't read/followed the whole thread but was aware of the FY6600's existence, seems like you guys are kicking it into shape - good work :D
Back output won't be able to keep up with that high frequency due to a 74HC245 buffer which runs at typical 55 MHz max. so 60 is maxing it out pretty much.
Depending on the voltage levels it needs to run at, there are several CMOS family alternatives to the 74HC245 buffer that would have much lower gate propagation times.
1. Is there a schematic available?
2. Who is the preferred vendor to buy an FY6600 from?
Not sure if it will help you but:
Hanging with the logo displayed means the STM32 CPU is not getting (correct) responses from the FPGA.
For example if you disable FPGA because you are programming Winbond, this is shown. Also some people have reported stuck logo because the cable came loose during transport.
I'm leaning in the direction of making the modifications you describe. Now feel more confident in replacing the original 50 MHz oscillator. Checked and found the TCXO Model D75J in stock at DigiKey. Thanks for all the tips. :)Does anyone know another source for the TCXO than digikey? In germany you pay 34 EUR ($42) including postage when you order from digikey.
PS: apologies if this sounds a little pedantic, not really intended, but unsure how else to bring the info.
Well, since the non-loaded output is perfect, I did not see how it could be the input of the OpAmp, but I checked anyway.
As expected, the input of the THS3002 is still a good looking sine with curves in all the right places.
Also, I ran the wave all the way down to 0.01Hz, and the shape of the flattened top stayed the same. Meaning it is not a response time thing. Not even a current thing, because if the local capacitor would drain out, surely it would fall off more toward the trailing edge.
I wonder if it is something to do with the fact this OpAmp is described in the datasheet as a "CURRENT-FEEDBACK AMPLIFIER". I do not know what that means, normally when I mess with OpAmp I consider voltages. Need to read up on that.
Also, I wonder if it can be resolve by, instead of replacing, *adding* an OpAmp.
Just leave the THS3002 in place, and add a pair of THS3001. They have the same behavior, the PCB traces are in place, de-soldering is harder then soldering.
All we need to do is add to the unpopulated footprint.
A different topic: I found a bodge and a PCB variance
If you look at the images, my V1.5 board has some missing traces which they fixed with a solder blob.
But also, even if the traces were there, it would be slightly different to DerKammi's V1.501 board.
There is also a lot of unpopulated stuff around that chip. Seems to be a place for another tuning pot.
That area is not yet traced into the schematic is it?
While I was studying your schematic, also I think I spotted an error (sorry again).
The DAC's for offset output. VoutA and VoutB seems swapped between the A channel and the B channel. Is that correct?
Suggestion from my side. maybe we can have an automated step function with adjustable step time for these tests? So then we can just write down values and not switching back and forth programs and edit values. I'm half dead right now :)
If ever we build a per value / per device calibration matrix, yes, we should have such auto-set macro function. Does not even have to be in the BP, can be in the PC.
However, I think for now, all we need is some rough guidelines on what autoranges to select, and maybe some coarse global correct. So maybe one or two more person, then we are done for now.Agreed on that. I will also run tests and that will be enough data at the moment.
Also, I ran the wave all the way down to 0.01Hz, and the shape of the flattened top stayed the same. Meaning it is not a response time thing. Not even a current thing, because if the local capacitor would drain out, surely it would fall off more toward the trailing edge.From the THS3001 datasheet: "The ability to control the amplifier gain independent of the bandwidth constitutes a major advantage of current-feedback amplifiers over conventional voltage-feedback amplifiers"
I wonder if it is something to do with the fact this OpAmp is described in the datasheet as a "CURRENT-FEEDBACK AMPLIFIER". I do not know what that means, normally when I mess with OpAmp I consider voltages. Need to read up on that.
Also, I wonder if it can be resolve by, instead of replacing, *adding* an OpAmp.Good idea but as DerKammi said, we would have to add shared output resistors. May not be to difficult to modify traces for that... That is a typical design with THS3491.
Just leave the THS3002 in place, and add a pair of THS3001. They have the same behavior, the PCB traces are in place, de-soldering is harder then soldering.
All we need to do is add to the unpopulated footprint.
:) Yes, boring and source of mistakes. If needed, I will do it. I already did this some years ago: automated calibration on a FG with a DMM and and an oscilloscope with SCPI commands from an excel sheet (do you guess why I was talking of a SCPI interface in the new firmware ;))
Anyway thank you for your time, both of you. The more values, the more ideas (and you have a lot), the more potential upgrades.
Also, I ran the wave all the way down to 0.01Hz, and the shape of the flattened top stayed the same. Meaning it is not a response time thing. Not even a current thing, because if the local capacitor would drain out, surely it would fall off more toward the trailing edge.From the THS3001 datasheet: "The ability to control the amplifier gain independent of the bandwidth constitutes a major advantage of current-feedback amplifiers over conventional voltage-feedback amplifiers"
I wonder if it is something to do with the fact this OpAmp is described in the datasheet as a "CURRENT-FEEDBACK AMPLIFIER". I do not know what that means, normally when I mess with OpAmp I consider voltages. Need to read up on that.
A test I would suggest would be to use the feedback resistor value recommended in the THS3001 datasheet, that is 560 ohms for a gain around 5 instead of 1.5kohms. Then replacing the gain resistor with a 180 ohms one instead of the 499 ohms one. This would lead to a gain of 4.11 that could be compensated by the software calibration.
I have some THS3095 ready for tests as well as preproduction THS3491 but not time to do it now...
Replacement of 50Mhz clock chip with TCXO (1ppm).
It has 10 pads of which only 4 are used. You must connect pads 8 and 9 in this application.
@Insatman:Replacement of 50Mhz clock chip with TCXO (1ppm).
It has 10 pads of which only 4 are used. You must connect pads 8 and 9 in this application.
Can I just clarify something with you before I do this mod (I received the D75J and two THS3095s today)? Did you mean that pads 8 and 9 have to be connected together, ie both to the same solder pad on the board (the one next to L1)? In other words, you are only using three of the original four solder pads, with the one next to C1 taped off, but still using all four "active" pads on the D75J ?
Thanks,
Dave
Thanks for that, Insatman. I thought that was how you'd done it, looking at your photos, but I just wanted to make doubly sure :)
As for the 3095s, they are to replace the single 30021 opamp under the heatsink on the signal board - see here : https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/150/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/150/)
As to how well they work, well I'll find out tomorrow after I've put mine in and re-run the high range tests. I'll do the D75J mod after that, but it will have to be later in the week as I've got some urgent car maintenance to get out of the way as well.
Please order the THS3091, is doesn't have the shutdown pin as the 5 does, we don't need it.I checked that I while back, when @Vytautas first mentioned the THS3095, but luckily leaving the pins floating is defined in the specs:
Hello all, there's a new forum member that posted ( https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/software-feeltech-fy6600/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/beginners/software-feeltech-fy6600/) ) that he received his FY6600 but the CD is not readable. Is there a link anyone can post to help this member download it? - Thanks!
Please help me out.. Digi-Key shows two versions of THS3095, namely the THS3095D and THS3095DDA. The latter one has a power pad but otherwise looks similar. Can the power pad be a problem here? Which one would be best? Which one are you using?
I wonder if these are genuine?
It's been quite some time since I checked in here. I have a FY6600 v3.0 that got scrambled the third time I used it. Is there any remedy, reflash or fix available. Or, is it just a plastic case for a new project?
For anyone else contemplating replacing the existing clock chip with the D75J, please take my advice NOT to try to solder it directly to the board ..Can you please make some pictures of your work. I would really appreciate this!
Sorry, Candid, I didn't take any photos, but you can see Vytautas' before and after pics of his THS3095 changeover here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/150/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/150/)
As for the D75J, just read my description in conjunction with what you see when the old clock chip is removed - it will be obvious what needs to be done when you look at the four solder pads on the board and compare them with those on the chip (using the datasheet to identify them). Basically you are just adding three short table legs to the chip to make it ten times easier to fit onto the board. You won't be connecting anything to the solder pad next to C1 on the board, and the legs are connected to the other three pads matching each corner of the chip. For the correct orientation of the chip, see Insatman's photo here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/800/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/800/)
I installed the D75J TCXO chip last night, and my frequency error went down from -4.65ppm to 0.45ppm, and after warm up and calibration it was down to 0.02ppm and rock steady - a pretty good result, although it was almost "a mod too far".
For anyone else contemplating replacing the existing clock chip with the D75J, please take my advice NOT to try to solder it directly to the board after the old chip has been removed, as the pads on the new chip are tiny, completely hidden from view, and only just coincide with the edges of the existing solder pads, so getting the chip positioned exactly right is a matter of pure chance. I think luck must have been with Insatman when he did it, but I wasted over two hours struggling to get the connections made before giving up. Instead, just cut three pieces of fine wire about 8mm long (34 gauge worked very well) and solder them to pads 4,5, and 8+9 on the chip, then bend them into legs and feet so as to give about 3mm clearance from the board. Soldering the feet to the board then becomes a simple matter because you can now see precisely what you are doing. After the abuse it took I'm surprised the chip still worked in the end, but if it packs up now I know I can replace it without fuss in a matter of minutes!
I think that's all the hardware modding done now, except for painting the box red and putting go-faster stripes down the sides, but that can wait :)
Umm...
I think it's pretty cool, but on an objective level it's more than a little daft.
Just rightclick on the specific message and do "copy link address"
After my first attempt the ground lead was open so I simply heated up the corner of the PCB pad and shoved more solder in.
I just want mine to work!
Assuming you don't fry your FY6600 making the modifications, you will have a FG/ARB SG that compares in many features to some of the higher priced ARB/SGs from Rigol, Hantek and Tek.Arguably, without mods we have that.
What I did though is I made a custom waveform, 0 to max, for VCO input to sweep, and a small -max pulse at the beginning to trigger the scope. And I fed that into the VCO in the back. So no need for a square wave.
If you are doing this at higher freuqencies, the pulse at the beginning may need to be more than just one sample, because we may have 8192 samples, but above 30KHz not all samples make it to the signal (250MHz sample rate / 8192 samples)
How to one-shot it though? not sure, I guess that would be a feature request to fremen67.
But why not simply repeat your bode plot?
Paulca, expanding on the suggestion of Cybermaus, you can get a triggered sweep for your scope by feeding a low frequency negative ramp from CH2 to the VCO terminal in back. Make sure your ramp goes from 5V to 0 V, using offset and amplitude adjustments. Set your start and stop frequencies, then use"Forth" in Sweep selection to get a forward frequency plot. Your scope can be triggered directly from the positive edge of the ramp using a second scope channel or ext trigger.
While this does work, it is cumbersome and fraught with possible errors. For more serious work with frequency response plots I suggest you get a low cost scalar network analyzer. There are plenty of low cost ones on eBay.
I just want mine to work!
A very valid goal.
And I think it is OK to inform new users by posting every so often that these mods are not strictly needed to have a nicely working $90 AWG signal generator with a good cost/benefit ratio out of the box. But that does not mean we cannot play.
And also, every so often some handy piece of information may fall out that even the more conservative owners can use.
But yes, adding a €45 TCXO on a $90 device also took my attention. Only do that if you enjoy doing that.
What's the status of just getting usable FW in my 3.1 unit? Are we there yet?While true that things are a bit quiet around a usable custom firmware, I'd argue the V3.1 is pretty usable already. It is V3.0 that crashes and hangs.
For what it's worth as another data point for discussion on this topic, I'll add my experiences with our shop purchasing the Koolertron version of this generator a couple of months ago.
The 60MHz unit arrived from the Ebay vendor's warehouse in Walton, KY quickly. Upon initial unboxing and examination of the unit, it was discovered that several waveforms were missing from the generator, right out of the box: Lorenz, Sinc (I assume they meant "Sync"?), Multi-Tone, Exp-Decay, Exp-Rise, and Noise. No waveforms were output, and the representative waveform on the display was missing; nothing but a flat-line. Immediately I filed a return. The vendor was quick to answer back with accusations that I didn't know how top operate the generator, that I should watch a video, and that obviously the generator was fine - the PEBKAG. They demanded me to post a video of the problem before they would do anything about it. I wasn't going to stand for that crap and having to jump through their hoops (I can't easily post a video for their amusement) and let them know exactly what was going to happen; send the defective device back for a full refund. First they stalled a few days. Then their shipping label that they uploaded to Ebay was irretrievable. Upon investigation, it was discovered that this is a frequent ploy that some less-than-honest sellers will do; upload an invalid .pdf file as a return shipping label, and in the process, shift all of the legwork of doing the return to the poor soul who bought the defective item in hopes that they'll eventually just give up, or perhaps stall things long enough that the return period will expire.
Long story short, I ended up having to drive tens of miles to get the thing shipped, using my own money. Their idea of "reimbursement" for the shipping fee was to short change me by exactly $1. They told me that since they accepted return on my device (yeah, after more than 2 weeks of back-and-forth ridiculousness!) they expected me to reverse the negative feedback given for the transaction (the first and ONLY time I've ever given such in 15 years of Ebaying). And their response to that negative feedback was that I didn't know how to operate the device. Uh... yeah. That's it... I knew how to get sine, square, triangle, and all kinds of other waveforms out of the device but for some reason I just didn't know how to operate the unit well enough to get those other waveforms out of it.
At least the ARB waveforms would work, and I left within the generator a nice little hand-drawn "hand with middle finger saluting them" waveform. :-+
After all that fiasco, I bought the Feeltech model. The buttons aren't as nice, and I'll have to deal with the voltage on the ground lead, but other than this, so far so good... I just need to check what version of firmware.
And if anyone needs to know the vendor name, let me know.
Could someone who owns one of these FY6600 signal generators do a simple test - could you set the unit to output a pulse waveform at 10MHz with a ~40% duty cycle and see if it has any jitter as described in this thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rd-jds6600-signal-generator-jitter-on-pulse-output-when-duty-cycle-is-not-50/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/rd-jds6600-signal-generator-jitter-on-pulse-output-when-duty-cycle-is-not-50/)
If the Feeltech is clean I might return my unit, otherwise I suppose I might live with it *sigh*.
Thanks much.
I am assuming that the 5ns jitter comes from the 200MHz sample rate that the unit has. I don't really know how DDS signal generators work, but I am assuming this 5ns is an artifact of the 200MHz base clock.For the same reason, the 250MHz DAC in the FY6600 has 4ns. So a hair less, but pretty much the same.
My modified FY6600 has jitter on 50% duty cycle but not at 40%...go figure.Did you per chance use the frequency calibration? If you set that different then 10000000, then your 10MHz is no longer a perfect divider and the points where jitter happen shift and are no longer predictable.
My modified FY6600 has jitter on 50% duty cycle but not at 40%...go figure.Did you per chance use the frequency calibration? If you set that different then 10000000, then your 10MHz is no longer a perfect divider and the points where jitter happen shift and are no longer predictable.
My device is now upgraded to version 3.2 and all the front panel buttons work swimmingly.There was a problem with the buttons, that was resolved with V3.2?
There was a problem with the buttons, that was resolved with V3.2?
Please explain further?
Ah yes.
Indeed, Louis Rossman may make it seem like it's easy, but I also still think of successfully replacing a 48 pin SMD package as a an accomplishment.
Paulca, expanding on the suggestion of Cybermaus, you can get a triggered sweep for your scope by feeding a low frequency negative ramp from CH2 to the VCO terminal in back. Make sure your ramp goes from 5V to 0 V, using offset and amplitude adjustments. Set your start and stop frequencies, then use"Forth" in Sweep selection to get a forward frequency plot. Your scope can be triggered directly from the positive edge of the ramp using a second scope channel or ext trigger.
While this does work, it is cumbersome and fraught with possible errors. For more serious work with frequency response plots I suggest you get a low cost scalar network analyzer. There are plenty of low cost ones on eBay.
My FY6600 (V3.2) has quite significant variation of amplitude with frequency. While I have used the CH2 ramp to sweep, the result is approximate at best.
Is there a summary of recommended mods (+part numbers) that could be uploaded to Der Kammi's GitHub? Also, is it possible to run the output opamps at a higher voltage (like +/- 15V) in order to avoid the distortion at high amplitude via a better power supply? Or is the high amplitude distortion baked in?
From what I understand, the timebase, the output opamps, the capacitors, and the power supply should be upgraded in various different ways. Is there something else that I have missed?
1. Power supplyMake sure the 14V has good good buffer caps, or else make the rail 12.5V instead of 14V. Because 14Vdc from 14Vac may cause some ripple if your caps are too small.
Classical transformer 14Vx2/20VA
Linear regulators 14V DC for some output peak headroom - possibly LM317/337
DC-DC to 6V and then linear to 5VNo need. That 5V is not used except to have a linear to 3.3V. So your DC-DC may as well go to 5V directly
Diode clipping to the power supply rails - BAV99Ok, I missed that one. Why/How clip to rail with BAV99? Is that still needed if you replace the entire PSU?
Would be nice to have the channels LEDs yellow and blue ;-)Actually, colored LED would be a nice finishing touch. Completely not useful, but nice.
The rotary knob is also mentioned by several people as being shallow
1. Power supplyMake sure the 14V has good good buffer caps, or else make the rail 12.5V instead of 14V. Because 14Vdc from 14Vac may cause some ripple if your caps are too small.
Classical transformer 14Vx2/20VA
Linear regulators 14V DC for some output peak headroom - possibly LM317/337
Especially since it was reported the 3095 on 11.5V already barely had clipping (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1464545/#msg1464545), so better a stable 12.5V then a ripply 14VDC-DC to 6V and then linear to 5VNo need. That 5V is not used except to have a linear to 3.3V. So your DC-DC may as well go to 5V directlyDiode clipping to the power supply rails - BAV99Ok, I missed that one. Why/How clip to rail with BAV99? Is that still needed if you replace the entire PSU?Would be nice to have the channels LEDs yellow and blue ;-)Actually, colored LED would be a nice finishing touch. Completely not useful, but nice.
The rotary knob is also mentioned by several people as being shallow
What is with the knob? I find the rotary know quite nice as is?
What is with the knob? I find the rotary know quite nice as is?
Red LED is ON by default when powering the bluepill. When Hardware initialization is done, I switch it OFF as soon as I recover control from the initialization routines.
- Both LEDS turn on (red and green). If memory serves, this means initialization went OK, and there is comms between CPU and FPGA
Any suggestions
However, I didn't test over a range of frequencies, and certainly not much below 1MHz, so I probably shouldn't have expected to see much change anyway. I'll do a more thorough test tomorrow.This is only static calibration. For dynamic response modification, a filter in the FPGA might be the solution...
I'd go for the DSLogic, but that comes from china, I do not want to wait 3 weeks. I'll look for something closer by.On ebay there's two Chinese sellers with German warehousing and one seller in the UK.
I have 3. One China, and 2 more integrated into official distributor bought real ST brand STM32F0 discovery boards.
As stated, both Bluepills behave the same, both can be programmed to a simple "blink" program and work, both can be programmed to fremen's and then read back to compare without issue. One Bluepill was brand new out of silver anti-static wrapper. So I have very little doubt about the BluePill or STLink themselves.
Nevertheless, I tried once more using the STM32F0 integrated STLink, just to read back. Program verified without problem, was thus properly programmed with the China STLink, and anyway after reprogramming I had same result.
Well, almost same: When connecting both 4 and 8 pin result is the same.
But doing this, I discovered that if I only connect power (4 pin header) and not the 8 pin header, the LED does turn off, it does get past initialization.
Added my pull-up resistor again, but still not work. Something is unstable on that SPI bus when connected.
It may be because I have slightly older hardware. I need to properly spy that bus.
I'd go for the DSLogic, but that comes from china, I do not want to wait 3 weeks. I'll look for something closer by.
I am in dire need of a new/better LAThere are lot of chances that it does not come from your bluepill board.
Trying to figure out why it is not working anymore. It is weird, because the BP was never disconnected from the loom, so there is not much chance of me making a mistake with it.
Tried a new BP, and soldered it to a veroboard for better signal and connection quality, and same result. Both BP have the red LED stay on, and both BP nicely run the standard "blink" program from STM32
Using my LA at max 20MHz I am not able to decode what is happening, because the SPI is also at 20Mhz. Ergo, I need a LA of at least 40MHz, better 80MHz
Using my Scope, I was able to see that the SPI signals themselves are pretty clean and well defined, but with the startup delay and limited scope trace, I am not really seeing what is happening (good thing I never paid for the decoding, it is not so very useful)
So:
- Any chance Fremen you can, without too much effort, make a custom 5Mhz clocked version?
- Anyone has advice on what LA? Spec-wise I like the ScanaQuad SQ100, but its a bit pricey and I'd maybe like 8 instead of 4 channels.
(maybe I should go and search a different thread for that, but here I am anyway)
PS: CHecked and re-checked, so pretty sure about the wiring. But if anyone wants to look, see pictures.
ALso, I keept the veroboard a little larger, so I can add buttons in the future...
Sellers on eBay and AliBaba that claim to be in UK or Germany are lying.
I know people do actually exist in UK and Germany, but only a few million, and there is like a few billion people in China, so statistically above statement is true.
Also, I noticed the eBay sellers do not include the special coax-probes, but just the straight lead probe
Picture one: Yellow is 20Vpp into 50 Ohm with THS3095Can you tell something about the reference waveform? Second channel into High-Z or what?
Blue is reference waveform10Vpp into High-Z. You do not even see the blue because they are so equal.
1. Power supplyMake sure the 14V has good good buffer caps, or else make the rail 12.5V instead of 14V. Because 14Vdc from 14Vac may cause some ripple if your caps are too small.
Classical transformer 14Vx2/20VA
Linear regulators 14V DC for some output peak headroom - possibly LM317/337
Especially since it was reported the 3095 on 11.5V already barely had clipping (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1464545/#msg1464545), so better a stable 12.5V then a ripply 14VDC-DC to 6V and then linear to 5VNo need. That 5V is not used except to have a linear to 3.3V. So your DC-DC may as well go to 5V directlyDiode clipping to the power supply rails - BAV99Ok, I missed that one. Why/How clip to rail with BAV99? Is that still needed if you replace the entire PSU?
Will any other components besides the ferrite & new power supply be needed to power the dual THS3095 output op amps, other than a grounding cable to reference the BNC ground to mains earth?There is no need for a new psu for the THS3095s. A linear psu would prevent the ghost voltage to earth ground and keeps the outputs floating. Your reason for the new smpsu is because of the higher voltage? I replaced the smpsu with a self made linear one with 5V and +/-12V and do not have any problems with 20Vpp output on 50Ohm termination.
Finally, are the THS3095's just a drop in replacement for the single output op amp or am I going to need to solder in additional components around them?No additional components needed, just a replacement. I attach a picture.
...and installing a new TXCO referenceSoldering the TXCO modul is something you need patience for. I placed kapton tape on the bottom side of the module so that all the not needed pads were covered.
Thanks, I needed the higher voltage supply to help handle the waveform clipping problem in the output. I just realized that I will need to put a 5V regulator after the 12v output in order to supply the necessary 5v for the rest of the board. Any suggestions for how I should manage that?
First test: Just plug the 4 wires ribbon and you should be able to talk to the board via PC Software.confirmed: both the vero-PB and the loom-BP connect to PC software if only the 4-pin is connected.
If it works, second test: plug the two ribbons, except the /FPA Ready pin (you may have to de-solder one wire now with your vero board...). If it works then it comes from a different timing of this signal for whatever reason.. I could just release a FW version that continues init after a time-out. If it does not work than it might come from SPI init. I should have a look at how to recover from this one.Both the vero-BP and the loom-BP do not work if I disconnect the /FPGARDY signal.
For this you should take a step down converter that is capable of >1A not a 5V regulator like the 7805. On the 5V rail there is up to 1A needed. Using a 7805 it would need to dissipate (14V - 5V) * 1A = 9V * 1A = 9W! You get step down converters very cheap as ready to use modules. With a small heatsink the XL4015E1 (see picture) would be a good choice. It is capable of up to 5A. This module is only about 5cm x 2,5 cm x 2,5cm.
Also, I noticed the eBay sellers do not include the special coax-probes, but just the straight lead probes.Are there any sellers which advertise the Plus with coaxial leads? I've seen reviews of it, but all the pictures of the Plus on say aliexpress have 4+1 flying leads for each connector. The images for the plus on the Sigrok site do too. (And for some reason the DreamSourceLab website doesn't mention the plus at all.)
You may have missed the message just above yours.Oups! I was still on page 47 ... :-DD
Forgot to press refresh I guess.
Also, I ordered the DSLogic. From original website. No mention of delivery times, so likely 2 weeks minimum. But I am gone all next week anyway.Nice choice.. plus, should it happen, I would be able to read and analyze your BP captures ;)
OK. I think I got it. In fact it should be stucked during flash read tests. As I already added a 2s time-out during FPGA init, it should have failed to initialize the FPGA, went on after 2 sec and jumped to flash eeprom selftest. The FPGA not beeing initialized, it can't answer to flash read requests. That would explain what you see on the scope.First test: Just plug the 4 wires ribbon and you should be able to talk to the board via PC Software.confirmed: both the vero-PB and the loom-BP connect to PC software if only the 4-pin is connected.
btw: unlike what was stated before, it is the green LED that turns off after init.If it works, second test: plug the two ribbons, except the /FPA Ready pin (you may have to de-solder one wire now with your vero board...). If it works then it comes from a different timing of this signal for whatever reason.. I could just release a FW version that continues init after a time-out. If it does not work than it might come from SPI init. I should have a look at how to recover from this one.Both the vero-BP and the loom-BP do not work if I disconnect the /FPGARDY signal.
For added info, I attach a scope view of the SPI bus signals. Not sure if it helps in any way.
The first 2 are that I captured between BP and FPGA. The last 2 between FP and FPGA. While there are some overshoots on vertical edges, there is no noise, and there is a good clear difference between 0 and 1.
When BP is connected, these signals are shown over and over again. Hence the they are captured in RUN and nicely bright. My guess is the BP is trying to get the FPGA to say something, but it stays silent.
When FP is connected, the SPI is pretty much silent. I have to press a button to capture some bytes. Hence captured in SINGLE.
My favorite trafo:With 6cm x 5,8cm x 5cm it will be a challenge to fit this beast in the housing. I decided to use two small trafos and it works fine. I added a fan. All parts running well inside their thermal specs and I used standard 7805, 7812 and 7912.
https://www.ebay.de/itm/Netztransformator-230V-8V-1-7A-4-2V-0-15A-13-6Volt-2x0-6A-Mittenanzapfung-NEU/152934971288 (https://www.ebay.de/itm/Netztransformator-230V-8V-1-7A-4-2V-0-15A-13-6Volt-2x0-6A-Mittenanzapfung-NEU/152934971288)
Back to the THS3095 topic.
My cheap Chinese "he promised they were genuine (https://www.ebay.com/itm/292350281588)" THS3095 arrived and it was but a moments work to solder them in.
WOW, what a difference that made! I guess they are genuine. Or as good as.
Do you think the fan is really needed , or have you just fitted it for "insurance"?The fan is not a must it's more for insurance. Without it the housing is getting warm but not hot and I did not do much measurement over longer time without the fan. With the fan I get about 32°C air temperature at 21°C room temperature directly at the fan after hours with both channels on at 20Vpp / 20MHz / sine. All the components stay inside their temperature specs. The bridge rectifier I used ist not the best for this scenario but I had them in stock. It stays under 50°C and so I don't care.
I hope they will not burn up after a few days, and people blame me.
I think I got it. Having a closer look at the scope views, yellow beeing the clock, purple MOSI and blue MISO, the FPGA is answering.
For added info, I attach a scope view of the SPI bus signals. Not sure if it helps in any way.
The first 2 are that I captured between BP and FPGA. The last 2 between FP and FPGA. While there are some overshoots on vertical edges, there is no noise, and there is a good clear difference between 0 and 1.
When BP is connected, these signals are shown over and over again. Hence the they are captured in RUN and nicely bright. My guess is the BP is trying to get the FPGA to say something, but it stays silent.
Ok, many thanks, however I also reached some progress:That's good news. So it may rather be related to v3.1 than to your system.
With your v0.5 on the BP, I have flashed the Winbond from 3.1 to 3.2, and suddenly both vero-BP and loom-BP worked.
I flashed back to Winbond 3.1, and they both stopped working.
I next flashed your V0.4 onto BP and it still was not working
And I ended again with your V0.5 with Winbond 3.2, and it is working again.
In other words, it is working. But also, why was the combination of V0.4 and V3.1 working a few weeks ago, and not now?
It must be a hair trigger difference somewhere in the timing. Better weather? I did move my desk to the other side of the room.
So, if you feel you still want me to do these test with V0.5 and V3.1 combination, so that we may use my "on the edge instable" setup to improve general stability, then please say so and I will do them.
Did you use the v3.1 that you already posted (to go back from v3.2 to v3.1)or was is a recent backup (corrupted eeprom...)?Went back to November backup. I realized the corruption might be the case, so I did save the current 3.1 before I did the other things.
If you have some time, I would appreciate when you can test the last modifications (calibration and ZLoad mode) on your system.
I finally got around to seeing about upgrading the PSU to a linear one.
The transformer fits fine, the two regulator boards fit fine, the fused 3 pin IEC socket will fit fine. There is no chance of them all fitting together in the case.
What I'm currently considering is putting the PSU into an external enclosure and using some 6 core cable to run a lead to a socket on the back.
Of course the other option is to just use the existing switch/2 pin plug, not earth the transformer chassis and even then it will be highly cramped. Maybe if I made my own regulator board combining the two I bought it would work.
Even going external, the largest enclosure I could find in maplin closing sale is not big enough :( Not without things like the heat sinks being put against the insulated spade connectors for the mains IEC plug.
The transformer fits fine, the two regulator boards fit fine, the fused 3 pin IEC socket will fit fine. There is no chance of them all fitting together in the case.
I know this is off topic, but I can reuse the board mounting holes in the case to secure the important transformer, but is it acceptible to hot snot the regulator boards to the case?
..absolute max volts is 33 across the rails ,normally 30 volts is the recomended max...Absolute max rating is where the device supposed to not yet burn, but there is no guaranteed or even documented behavior or fidelity at that voltage. It just means that if you bring it back from 33V to 30V, it should work again, whereas is you bring it back from 33.1V, it is allowed to be damaged. It will probably still work, but you are walking on a sharp edge with 33V.
Thanks Cybermaus for sharing your positive experience with THS3095.
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1471111/#msg1471111 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1471111/#msg1471111)
I ordered 2 pieces on eBay, same seller.
Regards
Maybe its worth a try saying your a student working on a project,but again you may need to prove a connection with a learning institution to qualify,maybe if you have a friend who works in the electronics industry you could get them to do it for you . You never know though ,if you come up with the right story they might just decide to send you out a pair of op amps anyway ,maybe a little window dressing ,like a webpage and an official sounding email address is all they want .Better still ,tell them you already have the 3095 in your fy6600 and you want to try the new 3491 op amp in So8 package.
My thoughts exactly. The early birds have already caught their fill of worms....
I decided to wait for the new THS3491. It seems to be worth it :-)
THS3095:
Output current 350 mA [on 50 Ohm equivalent to 17.5V]
[no mention of current protection]
The THS309x incorporates automatic thermal shutoff protection. This protection circuitry shuts down the amplifier
if the junction temperature exceeds approximately 160°C.
THS3002:
Output current 175mA [on 50 Ohm equivalent to 8.75V]
The THS3001 incorporates output-current-limiting protection. Should the output become shorted to ground, the
output current is automatically limited to the value given in the data sheet. While this protects the output against
excessive current, the device internal power dissipation increases due to the high current and large voltage drop
across the output transistors. Continuous output shorts are not recommended and could damage the device.
Additionally, connection of the amplifier output to one of the supply rails (±VCC) is not recommended. Failure of
the device is possible under this condition and should be avoided. But, the THS3001 does not incorporate
thermal-shutdown protection. Because of this, special attention must be paid to the device's power dissipation or
failure may result.
Another observation after the 3095s mod is that you can now get half decent output up to at least 100MHz using the two or three cycle sine wave trick. However, attenuation of the output continues to increase with frequency - you don't get higher output amplitudes despite starting from a lower base frequency in the control software.
I decided to wait for the new THS3491. It seems to be worth it :-)
Given the huge improvements we've already seen with THS3095s, it's hard to see what extra goodness you're hoping for with the 3491s (whenever they become available). A few extra mV on the outputs?
BTW - I received my unit with 3.2.1 firmware and noticed that the output voltage is limited to 5Vpp above 20MHz. I believe this was not the case with the previous versions. Can someone confirm ?
Why always talk about the THS3095, while the THS 3091 is identical (except PD [Power Down] pin which is useless), cheaper and certainly very available ?When I looked, the 3095 was either cheaper (for single units) or the 3091 completely out of stock (for single units)
Im quite surprised by the amount of heat Im getting from the transformer ,its not burning up or anything ,but its certainly working towards the upper end of its capacity when the unit is driven.Have you checked the math (or measured) what is the conduction angle on the transformer? That is, not too big filter caps so that the transformer can work during longer periods of the cycle leading to lower losses in it. It is a compromise, though..
I think I read way back in the thread somewhere that 5 volts or below is a bit marginal ,if we make 3.3v from the five that only leaves 1.7 volts drop on the regulator ,maybe 5.3 volts might be better here.This depends a lot on the particular regulator and the operating (max) current. For example, I have (currently only) plans where a linear regulator should end up working at around 80mV drop, when its basic advertised-single-parameter drop is 0.5V. (Yeah, low drop to start with, but I'm going to drive it at less than 10% of maximum current, and the datasheet was nice enough to characterize lower currents, too). Then again, these kind of devices tend to have tiny regulator chips, and design leaves them to run near the max currents.
Im quite surprised by the amount of heat Im getting from the transformerI'd guess it's a cheaper transformer with a marginal amount of iron for the primary voltage. The core is probably saturating at peak, causing a current spike, hence dissipation, in the primary winding.
Im quite surprised by the amount of heat Im getting from the transformer ,its not burning up or anything ,but its certainly working towards the upper end of its capacity when the unit is driven .That is a typical problem with low power transformers: many get very hot. In one of my designs I replaced a transformer with a switching one which fits in the same footprint.
Soldering the TXCO modul is something you need patience for. I placed kapton tape on the bottom side of the module so that all the not needed pads were covered.
I only connected pin 4, 5 and 9. All others are covered by kapton tape.
That is interesting, I wonder how it affects the operation of the device to leave the trip state buffer enable/disable pin floating. It doesn't mention that anywhere in the datasheet
That is interesting, I wonder how it affects the operation of the device to leave the trip state buffer enable/disable pin floating. It doesn't mention that anywhere in the datasheet
Note 5 on page 1 of the datasheet I downloaded states, "Output is enabled with no connection to Pad 8. Leave Pad 8 open if disable function is not required."
I wish I'd spotted that when I did mine!
The firmware will also updateable by the userWhat makes you think that? Surely not that Chinglish promise at the start?
I'm sorry. I've got V 3.0. Will the blue pills not work with that?They should, but you'd still need to update your winbond to V3.2
My sample questions are related to the sweep feature. I thought I'd see if I can contribute something to that. Is fremen67's stored waveform swept? I was thinking of writing a program that would calculate waveforms so that one could load a couple of waveform registers alternately so that one got a smooth sweep by changing the sample rate and waveform register.Well, current sweep is only to sweep frequency, amplitude, PWM, and those are driven internally by the device STM32, no need to do it from the PC. Also, I think the PC connection is way to slow to do that seamlessly. Best try and get your BluePill based FY6600 running first.
@DaveR can you point me to the clip on connector?
@cybermaus I hadn't looked at the rating. I was really just asking about the device.
In many respects, I'm tempted to just punt on this turkey and let someone else play with it. I've bought a bunch of early 90's vintage HP gear in the last few months and it's a much more satisfying experience. A *lot* more money than Chinese stuff, but I'm about to turn 65 and decided it was OK to spend some money. I've been very frugal my whole life, so I can both afford it and feel I deserve it.
In many respects, I'm tempted to just punt on this turkey and let someone else play with it. I've bought a bunch of early 90's vintage HP gear in the last few months and it's a much more satisfying experience. A *lot* more money than Chinese stuff, but I'm about to turn 65 and decided it was OK to spend some money. I've been very frugal my whole life, so I can both afford it and feel I deserve it.Not quite 65 yet, but old enough to somewhat understand where you are coming from. I have also always been frugal (aka a cheap bastard) and am still amazed at myself how I buy a cheap Chinese AWG when a) I can easily afford the proper stuff and b) I seem to spend relatively high amounts on patching up said AWG with PSU, OpAmps, etc. Truth is, I think I enjoy the challenge and frustration of making things work for pennies on the dollar.
AFAIK the FY6600 PC software accepts CSV files.
In many respects, I'm tempted to just punt on this turkey and let someone else play with it. I've bought a bunch of early 90's vintage HP gear in the last few months and it's a much more satisfying experience. A *lot* more money than Chinese stuff, but I'm about to turn 65 and decided it was OK to spend some money. I've been very frugal my whole life, so I can both afford it and feel I deserve it.Not quite 65 yet, but old enough to somewhat understand where you are coming from. I have also always been frugal (aka a cheap bastard) and am still amazed at myself how I buy a cheap Chinese AWG when a) I can easily afford the proper stuff and b) I seem to spend relatively high amounts on patching up said AWG with PSU, OpAmps, etc. Truth is, I think I enjoy the challenge and frustration of making things work for pennies on the dollar.
So, my advise, put it to the site when it gets too much, order the $6 programmer just in case, and maybe pick it up again later, or maybe not.
Someone asked a while back about extra waveforms ,I found some wave drawing software called Easywave it needed a component called Visa shared components from National instruments to run , the files it makes are CSV, where I notice the wave files for the Fy6600 are a different format .I wonder is there a way to convert the format, looks a good bit more elaborate than the feeltech software . Im not sure if the FY6600 will talk to this program directly ,but it might be possible to use it to create waveforms all the same .Be interesting to hear from anyone with experience using this or other waveform creation software.
divider of 250MHz, not 50MHz, I am sure you meant to write.
Jitter is 4ns (or indeed 1/250MHz) for vertical edges.
No solution, not even one proposed or speculated, its just part of the fixed PLL. Indeed I would expect the FY6800 to also have this.
Below 1MHz it is not noticeable, above 5MHz it makes your scope screen rather messy, I try to look past it.
Is it known what aspect of the PLL is causing this jitter?
Is it known what aspect of the PLL is causing this jitter?
How do you mean, what aspect? It's simply the maximum resolution of the clock. Its like asking why a picture with a 1024 resolution has blocks that are 1/1024 width.
Of course, even a picture you can "anti alias", basically faking a fuzzy edge by playing with gray scale, and that is why the sine wave appears better. But hard edges are simply either on one tick of the 250MHz clock, or on the next tick 4ns later. Never in the middle.
To fix this (for hard edges) you'd need to vary the base frequency resolution along with the desired frequency, like with a programmable clock, or with a VCO based clock instead of a PLL based clock. Or heavily overshoot the clock resolution, like sample it on 1GS/s instead of 250MS/s. But that is all done in the FPGA.
... I have also always been frugal (aka a cheap bastard) and am still amazed at myself how I buy a cheap Chinese AWG when a) I can easily afford the proper stuff and b) I seem to spend relatively high amounts on patching up said AWG with PSU, OpAmps, etc. Truth is, I think I enjoy the challenge and frustration of making things work for pennies on the dollar.I'm in the same category, I have a large box full of such half-assed projects but, this time, I was able to talk myself out of buying yet another prototype. When I first saw this thread I thought "wow, a dual AWG for $100 but the additional cost in 'upgrades', shipping, and time probably triples that price.
I'm in the same category, I have a large box full of such half-assed projects but, this time, I was able to talk myself out of buying yet another prototype. When I first saw this thread I thought "wow, a dual AWG for $100 but the additional cost in 'upgrades', shipping, and time probably triples that price.
If you want to generate dual arbitrary waveforms and have a good range of built-in useful waveforms (e.g. ECG), buy a debugged, working product like a Rigol DG1022Z (which I did for around $325.)
If you want to spend about the same amount of money (in the end), waste hours tinkering, changing ICs, waiting 3 weeks for cheap programmers to arrive from China, and end up with something that sort of does the job, buy the FY6600/FY6800.
Your choice.
If you want to generate dual arbitrary waveforms and have a good range of built-in useful waveforms (e.g. ECG), buy a debugged, working product like a Rigol DG1022Z (which I did for around $325.)
This isn't an entirely accurate statement. The Feeltech generators will do fine as a basic function generator. For many tasks you don't really need a generator with many bells and whistles so the Rigol and Siglent generators (which aren't free of flaws) are just not worth the money if all you need are basic waveforms.... I have also always been frugal (aka a cheap bastard) and am still amazed at myself how I buy a cheap Chinese AWG when a) I can easily afford the proper stuff and b) I seem to spend relatively high amounts on patching up said AWG with PSU, OpAmps, etc. Truth is, I think I enjoy the challenge and frustration of making things work for pennies on the dollar.I'm in the same category, I have a large box full of such half-assed projects but, this time, I was able to talk myself out of buying yet another prototype. When I first saw this thread I thought "wow, a dual AWG for $100 but the additional cost in 'upgrades', shipping, and time probably triples that price.
If you want to generate dual arbitrary waveforms and have a good range of built-in useful waveforms (e.g. ECG), buy a debugged, working product like a Rigol DG1022Z (which I did for around $325.)
If you want to spend about the same amount of money (in the end), waste hours tinkering, changing ICs, waiting 3 weeks for cheap programmers to arrive from China, and end up with something that sort of does the job, buy the FY6600/FY6800.
Your choice.
... some go way overboard by fitting a completely new PSU and so on ...
really funny, each time they connect the BNC-cable to their scope, or USB-cable to their PC,Were those roughly 60 volts on the neutral part of the BNC on the generator imaginary too?
it is grounded - gratis - no need for nothing.
The problem is that until it is connected to ground you have 60V to 120V AC floating around and that will kill your circuits for sure.... some go way overboard by fitting a completely new PSU and so on ...
really funny, each time they connect the BNC-cable to their scope, or USB-cable to their PC,
it is grounded - gratis - no need for nothing.
The problem is that until it is connected to ground you have 60V to 120V AC floating around and that will kill your circuits for sure.
First I would like to thank all of those who have actively participated in his thread and contributed toward making the FY6600 great (sometime, maybe). So far, it has been a great learning experience enabling my cheapskate self to possess a bargain signal generator.
The last time eBay offered a 15% off coupon, I sprung for a US warehoused 60 MHz that had the latest firmware. I had been eyeing them for some time, thanks to this thread.
I’ll have to post pictures when I get it back together after installing the THS3095 op amps and a better heat sink. I managed to get everything in the case in a layout similar to the picture Dave posted including a 40mm 12v fan driven off the second 9v transformer winding.
Parts & Cost list:
$87.46 FY6600-60 eBay (with 15% off coupon) US stock V3.2.1
$21.08 30va R-core 18v 18v 9v 9v Transformer eBay (with 15% off coupon)
$6.99 LM317 LM337 ac to dc regulator kit eBay
$1.58 LM317 ac to dc regulator kit eBay
$7.66 two THS3095 op-amps eBay
$124.77 Total
40mm fan and rectifier, capacitor, resistor from my stock
C14 power inlet, fuse holder and fuse from my stock
Fasteners, stand offs, wire, etc. all from my stock
That $130/h depends on where one lives, what one does for work (or if one even has a work), etc., and is the price one would perhaps pay to some company to do it, less than that if it was someone being paid personally. When one does it by oneself, the cost of time should be the amount one would get less income, considering taxes and all.. Typically closer to $15/h :P If I'd do just the main recommended changes as is, without more thinking, the total time would be somewhere between 3-5 hours (+perhaps 1 hour for cleaning up). And of course, can you really put a "cost" on free time, especially if what needs to be done is the same stuff you'd do anyway as a hobby. But, lets give it a rounded $75 worth (of my time).First I would like to thank all of those who have actively participated in his thread and contributed toward making the FY6600 great (sometime, maybe). So far, it has been a great learning experience enabling my cheapskate self to possess a bargain signal generator.
The last time eBay offered a 15% off coupon, I sprung for a US warehoused 60 MHz that had the latest firmware. I had been eyeing them for some time, thanks to this thread.
I’ll have to post pictures when I get it back together after installing the THS3095 op amps and a better heat sink. I managed to get everything in the case in a layout similar to the picture Dave posted including a 40mm 12v fan driven off the second 9v transformer winding.
Parts & Cost list:
$87.46 FY6600-60 eBay (with 15% off coupon) US stock V3.2.1
$21.08 30va R-core 18v 18v 9v 9v Transformer eBay (with 15% off coupon)
$6.99 LM317 LM337 ac to dc regulator kit eBay
$1.58 LM317 ac to dc regulator kit eBay
$7.66 two THS3095 op-amps eBay
$124.77 Total
40mm fan and rectifier, capacitor, resistor from my stock
C14 power inlet, fuse holder and fuse from my stock
Fasteners, stand offs, wire, etc. all from my stock
Time: 10 hours at $130 per hour = $1,300.00
Shipping for all the above (est) = $50.00
Cost of parts = $127.44
Total = $1,477.44
Time: 10 hours at $130 per hour = $1,300.00
Shipping for all the above (est) = $50.00
Cost of parts = $127.44
Total = $1,477.44
Time: 10 hours at $130 per hour = $1,300.00While I mostly agree with your reasoning, it would also mean I couldn't pick up a book or learn a new skill any more. I couldn't afford either.
Shipping for all the above (est) = $50.00
Cost of parts = $127.44
Total = $1,477.44
Parts & Cost list:
$87.46 FY6600-60 eBay (with 15% off coupon) US stock V3.2.1
$21.08 30va R-core 18v 18v 9v 9v Transformer eBay (with 15% off coupon)
$6.99 LM317 LM337 ac to dc regulator kit eBay
$1.58 LM317 ac to dc regulator kit eBay
$7.66 two THS3095 op-amps eBay
$124.77 Total
40mm fan and rectifier, capacitor, resistor from my stock
C14 power inlet, fuse holder and fuse from my stock
Fasteners, stand offs, wire, etc. all from my stock
We're as sure as we can be that v3.2 fixed the problem. No-one with a 3.2 device has ever reported any problems with it.Thanks,
...and retired people having lots of spare time to use as they see fit...Well, this thread is good for my ego. I used to think of myself as one of the older guys, now I am starting to consider myself young... well, less old anyway.
I do wish though he would answer the 200MHz/5ns jitter question for his Rigol.
Sure if your time is worth 130 bucks an hour ,why not just go out and buy the latest and greatest from a prestige markWhy bother with building something at all if you make that kind of money? For $130/h you can hire someone to build the projects for you!
The Siglents datasheet have 8ns for arbitrary, matches exactly their 125MS/s spec. But square seems very good with 500ps. Are they doing something smart?The first generation SDG1000 used a comparator fed with a sine wave to make a square wave. I doubt the newer models will be much different.
Ah. Yes, that is also pretty smart. Yes, that may be it.
still makes the 500ps a bit of a statistical thing though.
A bug report for the 0.6 firmware/software package:Thank you for the feedback. I think I got it. It should not happen when you go first to the configuration tab and then only to the calibration tab. I wanted to speed-up the startup and only read configuration data when needed.... which I need in the calibration tab :-[. I will correct it in the next release ;)
Nothing wrong with the sweep module, but I used a different blue pill board for the 0.6 firmware and had to redo the calibration process. Ch1 Amplitude went ok, but the control software crashed repeatedly while trying to do the Ch1 Offsets (see screen1.jpg). Restarting the control software brought it back in the configuration in screen2.jpg, and resetting the blue pill brought it back in normal default mode. I gave up on Ch1 and did Ch2 instead, both amplitude and offsets being set without a problem, then went back to Ch1 offsets, which also completed without further hiccups. However, pressing either "End Calibration" button then causes another crash as in screen3.jpg (clicking "OK" shuts down the software).
Dave
If someone can point me the location of the blue pill set up/wiring for the FY6600 that would be great.
With all talk about upgrades I've been thinking why I should upgrade power supply and why?Those were my thoughts too. Then I noticed the distortion of smaller signals caused by the SMPS interference. It radiates a lot, and maybe there are ground bounce or ground loops. A linear supply should eliminate the interference. The first attached photo shows the FY6600 output signal when the amplitude is set to zero. The second shows the distortion when outputting 1V p-p.
From memory, it looked much better before the Y-cap mod too.Thanks Cybermaus. This made me go back to basics. I had grounded the common as soon as I got the unit, and that was the configuration for those photos. When I removed the ground, the waveform improved significantly. I now have a 1K resistor in there that leaves the signal as clean as an open circuit.
Note, plb used apparently 10x probe, not 50ohm connection. (Also, if it indeed was a probe, how was it connected? With the ground clip "loop antenna" or with the small coil+spike?) That might explain some of the difference seen on the scope view.Correct about the probe Bugi. However the SMPS frequency is 50KHz. Even considering harmonics, that's not really "loop antenna" territory.
Hi PLB ,If the amplitude is set to zero then the unit shorts the bnc connector to ground via relay , so what your measuring in any case is whats induced into the loop .Not quite, Soundtec. There is zero pickup by the "loop antenna" until I move it adjacent to the SMPS . Good point about the relay though. I hadn't noticed. Obviously what I'm seeing is being induced into the PCB and relay. Your result looks excellent though. Thanks.
On the highest amplitude range ie 5 volts and above and frequency set to zero I was measuring 150 microvolts into hi z at the bnc connector, this measurment was taken after the psu was replaced .
Well, not sure there are relays for shorting the BNC connectors to ground. It does not show up on the schematics... When amplitude is set to 0, opamps have only a 0 setpoint...Hi PLB ,If the amplitude is set to zero then the unit shorts the bnc connector to ground via relay , so what your measuring in any case is whats induced into the loop .Not quite, Soundtec. There is zero pickup by the "loop antenna" until I move it adjacent to the SMPS . Good point about the relay though. I hadn't noticed. Obviously what I'm seeing is being induced into the PCB and relay. Your result looks excellent though. Thanks.
On the highest amplitude range ie 5 volts and above and frequency set to zero I was measuring 150 microvolts into hi z at the bnc connector, this measurment was taken after the psu was replaced .
Well, not sure there are relays for shorting the BNC connectors to ground. It does not show up on the schematics... When amplitude is set to 0, opamps have only a 0 setpoint...There is a schematic available? Can you point me to it?
Peeking in the thread, after some months... interesting guys, how far it has gone! Thank you for the schematic, that was a tough one I guess.
Seems the VCO BNC input is sampled by the ADC in the MCU on the front board?
Also, wazzup with the THS3002? It seems you can barely find a datasheet for it. (Old 1999 revision listed by only some Chinese site with a download speed of a dial up...)
Stupid question, the blue pill board doesn't drive the display...yet, it's controlled from the PC only?
What I do know is we can easily make a sine-into-gate wave ourselves. In fact, I think it is already there, on the TTL and/or SYNC-OUT ports.Good idea indeed.
We may need to replace the standard gate with a faster one, but after that we could add an extra OpAmp amplifier. Or even feed the gate output back into present opamp by means of an extra relay (so Fremen67 can control it with a spare GPIO, and the amplitude setting works)
Jeez guys... Leave the Wiz*gizmos for arduino kiddies. If you that much need the ETH and want to spend the extra time and effort, do it properly using a MCU withActually the W5500 chips work like a charm if the board layout is good. Messing around with a TCP stack in a microcontroller usually sucks and it won't be able to get rid of all the broadcast traffic you have on a network and you need an extra chip in the form of an ethernet PHY anyway so part wise you don't gain that much.
Ethernet would be sweet. But I think we should take care not to get too distracted or carried away. Ideally your software should work on FP without any required hardware mods.Of course. This would be for future extension.
But I ordered one of those ETH anyway. just in case.That's wise ;)
Programming by STLink seems best to me, as the header for that is already on the board, and with the ST tool, it is very simple, no commands, no linux, no nothing.I would not use Ethernet for programming purposes. Only for remote connection.
Also, sorry, my schedule is very full till middle June. lots of travel, so weekends too. Still wandering this board as a relaxation breather between other stuff, but I am really not going to be good for any proper testing.Same here.Though I usually not travel during weekends. I still have one kid at home. But I also really need this to change my mind.
+1Jeez guys... Leave the Wiz*gizmos for arduino kiddies. If you that much need the ETH and want to spend the extra time and effort, do it properly using a MCU withActually the W5500 chips work like a charm if the board layout is good. Messing around with a TCP stack in a microcontroller usually sucks and it won't be able to get rid of all the broadcast traffic you have on a network and you need an extra chip in the form of an ethernet PHY anyway so part wise you don't gain that much.
I'm curious, when using Bluepill would it be possible to use i2c programmable any-frequency generator to remove jitter?The idea is interresting. Say we don't want any jitter between a frequency of 50Mhz (5 samples) and a frequency of 62.5 Mhz (4 samples). The idea would be to always have 4 samples in this range. That is to control continuously the sampling rate from 200Msample/s @ 50Mhz to 250Msample/s @ 62.5 Mhz. If the device is able to generate a frequency that would change precisely betwwen 40Mhz and 50Mhz that could work... provided that there is an easy way to find the correct parameters for the device in real time.
https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/data-sheets/Si5351-B.pdf (https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/data-sheets/Si5351-B.pdf)
You can't switch these frequency generators without a hick-up in between.I'm curious, when using Bluepill would it be possible to use i2c programmable any-frequency generator to remove jitter?The idea is interresting. Say we don't want any jitter between a frequency of 50Mhz (5 samples) and a frequency of 62.5 Mhz (4 samples). The idea would be to always have 4 samples in this range. That is to control continuously the sampling rate from 200Msample/s @ 50Mhz to 250Msample/s @ 62.5 Mhz. If the device is able to generate a frequency that would change precisely betwwen 40Mhz and 50Mhz that could work... provided that there is an easy way to find the correct parameters for the device in real time.
https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/data-sheets/Si5351-B.pdf (https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/data-sheets/Si5351-B.pdf)
Yes, I guess that this won't be a problem when setting manually the frequency... That would be a problem for the sweeping function as it changes fast but in that particular case, I think that jitter is not that important when sweeping. So we can just sweep frequency the normal way.You can't switch these frequency generators without a hick-up in between.I'm curious, when using Bluepill would it be possible to use i2c programmable any-frequency generator to remove jitter?The idea is interresting. Say we don't want any jitter between a frequency of 50Mhz (5 samples) and a frequency of 62.5 Mhz (4 samples). The idea would be to always have 4 samples in this range. That is to control continuously the sampling rate from 200Msample/s @ 50Mhz to 250Msample/s @ 62.5 Mhz. If the device is able to generate a frequency that would change precisely betwwen 40Mhz and 50Mhz that could work... provided that there is an easy way to find the correct parameters for the device in real time.
https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/data-sheets/Si5351-B.pdf (https://www.silabs.com/documents/public/data-sheets/Si5351-B.pdf)
Would someone please point to *how* the sweep is implemented? My question is about the algorithm. My apologies if someone answered and I missed it, but this is a rather busy thread. Go away for a few days and it's impossible to catch up.The device can sweep Frequency, Amplitude, Offset or Duty. The sweeping source can be based on time or on external VCO Input (0-5V). This is the FP MCU which sends the values (Frequency, Amp, Offset or Duty) to the FPGA.
How is the sample clock implemented? is it done in the FPGA or a separate device?
For the level of work that has been expended, I think we could have an OSHW device of higher quality using a Zynq dev board for not a lot more money than the FY-6600 after the various upgrades and fixes.Maybe but the original idea was to be able to replace the original firmware with a better one. As far as I am concerned, redesigning a new FP board is far beyond my goal but when someone wants to go that route, why not!
[Would someone please point to *how* the sweep is implemented? My question is about the algorithm. My apologies if someone answered and I missed it, but this is a rather busy thread. Go away for a few days and it's impossible to catch up.The device can sweep Frequency, Amplitude, Offset or Duty. The sweeping source can be based on time or on external VCO Input (0-5V). This is the FP MCU which sends the values (Frequency, Amp, Offset or Duty) to the FPGA.
How is the sample clock implemented? is it done in the FPGA or a separate device?
In the original FY6600, the values are updated every 900µs when time based.
In the bluepill firmware the values are sent only when they change and the time resolution is 10µs. So when sweeping on a time base, a new value can be sent every 10µs. The time reference is handled in the FP MCU by 2 internal timers that are chained.For the level of work that has been expended, I think we could have an OSHW device of higher quality using a Zynq dev board for not a lot more money than the FY-6600 after the various upgrades and fixes.Maybe but the original idea was to be able to replace the original firmware with a better one. As far as I am concerned, redesigning a new FP board is far beyond my goal but when someone wants to go that route, why not!
You can't switch these frequency generators without a hick-up in between.It does clearly specify a "hitch-less" frequency change. Which would make it useable as clock for the FPGA
Edit: Should it be usefull, Modulation functions and Sweep functions can work together ...
Is there a connection diagram on the github ?
Thanks for the help guys.The larger board is a "STM32 Smart V2.0". I already used one in a previous project and the main advantage compared to the blue pill is that it has a 20pin JTAG connector. Compared to the basic bluepill, it has a 24c02 eprom onboard (connected to PB6 and PB7, not used by the blue pill firmware) and an extra switch, connected to PA0 which is used for VCO-IN. This should not be a problem at the moment.
Had a powercut all day today ,so got everyting connected up with the larger board ,just a few extra pins needed to be soldered for 5 volts and ground . Might be later or tomorrow before I see what happens .
Ive been messing with an ESP8266 (wifi)breakout board ,it seems from what Fremen said that even wired lan connection is to slow to sweep the fy6600 every 10 uS ,could a routine for sweep be programmed and sent to something like an ESP8266's internal memory and then triggered remotely and used to control the sweep parameters of the Fpga? The ESP 8266 board I got only has four pins brought out ,but there are others available with more comprehensive i/o. There very cheap ,easy enough to program ,and would mean sweep routines could be uploaded to the device and run locally with no 'comms' delay ,and no need for any processing on the controling pc . Wifi control of the generator would be an interesting possabillity though, anyway hopefully some ideas there ,thanks for the great work once again Fremen.The sweeping functions are done by the FP MCU. We don't need external connection for that. What I said is that the FP will have trouble handling sweep functions while spending time for other tasks like external communication (serial or ethernet for example if we add such a module) or even refreshing the display.
There would be several possibilities to connect this new board. We could for example just "daisy chain" this board between the existing USB/RS232 converter (4-wires ribbon) and the FP using RS232 link: no modification in the FP would be required. The new board would handle both existing external serial link and the new ethernet module, redirecting requests to a serial port connected to the FP..
Anyone with a V3.2.1 able to dump the flash memory and post it?Hello everybody,
Hi Dom ,welcome ,Thks soundtech,
On account of the fine weather I put off trying the bluepill board again ,maybe tomorrow .
What's the rev number on the main board (mine was 1.501) - just wondering if any hardware changes have been made as well? The power supply looks identical to that originally fitted in mine, except that the version number has gone from 1.6 to 1.7 (maybe just a minor component value change).
Regards,
Dave
Ohh sure there will be some mistakes in the schematic, no doubt :) I'll beep them out and correct the file when I can. The clamp diode sure make sense :)
So the 6800 arrived today .
I just had a preliminary look at it so far ,the switch on the encoder shaft is gone ,replaced by the ok button on the front panel .
Sync options are now accessed via systems menu and VCO has its own dedicated setup page . Only difference I found was in the 6800 you get a realtime display of modulation frequency ,where in the 6600 theres nothing appart from start/stop buttons to tell you your sweep is running .
The rubberised keys are definately an improvement ,much lighter to the touch and doesnt send the machine skidding off the table .On the inside the front panel is new ,the main board is V1.51 and psu is v1.7.
Main board seems tidied up a bit ,from version 1.501,some of the unused stuff is gone and other minor changes in placement in components. One of the ground wires which used to connect psu board to signal board now returns to the mains earth instead ,and the back panel is now plastic . Looks like its the simple dual channel single op amp in place on the outputs ,but the extra pads for the upgrade op amps are still there .No sign of any firmware update button that was hinted at previously by FT either. So Im wondering what happens if I swap out the front panels between 66 and 68 models ,does my 60 mhz unit then become a 15mhz and the 15mhz work upto 60mhz ?
It comes with a version 1.6 firmware and its the 60mhz model , The new badge on the front panel now reads FeelElec .
Just wondering if it might be worthwhile extending this thread to cover the FY6800 too ,seems pointless to set up another topic when everything relevant to 6600 is also relevant to 6800 model.
I made a picture with the two mainboards for comparison. Looks as if the pcb is nearly the same and only little changes.
Did you guys use the USB Blaster to read the FPGA flash or you had to remove it and use a programmer?
It's not removed I think look to the left upper side on the FY6800 board. I cannot read the printings on the chip and did only check on basis of this low res pictures.
Just had a quick look around, and the 6800s are now on sale at Banggood, AliExpress and ebay, priced about the same as the 6600s. The manual and software are also now on the Feeltech website.I just looked at ebay and Banggood and the front panels of the FY6800 say FeelElec on them. Do you suppose it already has been cloned, or maybe FeelTech is trying to bury a bad image. The Banggood one is pre-order; the only one I found on ebay one states it is US stock
Just found the documentation for the 6800 but cant see the software , I'll check for interoperabillity between the 6600/6800 hardware and software tomorrow
I may order one. where's ebay 25% off sale?
I can try reading the firmware status on the front panel if you link me back to the methodology you used DC1MC, is there any special interface required or will a simple programmer do the job ? If it needs a proper logic probe to do it I could probably get the use of one if needs be.Hi @soundtec, the same programmer for the "blue pill" should be enough to read the status of the lock bits and eventually the firmware.
There is a hidden menu entry for a Firmware Upgrade in the FY6800 PC Software which should work for the FY6600 too. In fact this hidden command was there for quite a while.
The Firmware Upgrade loads the latest version from the Feeltech website and installs it. The latest version seems to be V 3.4. The firmware file itself seems to be encrypted, at least from a quick look.
If anyone wants to try out the Firmware Upgrade (maybe someone with a broken V3.0 unit) I have attached a patched version of the PC software with the enabled Firmware Upgrade command. The second menu entry in the right most menu is "Firmware Upgrade".
I haven't tried it (no FY6600 yet) so you are on your own and trying it might brake you unit.
If this is true, than is the news of the year !!!
Cheers,
DC1MC
Anyone has a opp to post the link, or grab the supposed encrypted firmware file, before they remove it after reading this thread?
But do not simply post it as "firmware V3.4" please, to avoid people trying it without understanding the risk.
There is a hidden menu entry for a Firmware Upgrade in the FY6800 PC Software which should work for the FY6600 too. In fact this hidden command was there for quite a while.
The Firmware Upgrade loads the latest version from the Feeltech website and installs it. The latest version seems to be V 3.4. The firmware file itself seems to be encrypted, at least from a quick look.
If anyone wants to try out the Firmware Upgrade (maybe someone with a broken V3.0 unit) I have attached a patched version of the PC software with the enabled Firmware Upgrade command. The second menu entry in the right most menu is "Firmware Upgrade".
I haven't tried it (no FY6600 yet) so you are on your own and trying it might brake your unit.
The serial sniffer says:A lot of interesting things these last days ;-)
<PrSTM32_START\r
after which the firmware doesn't reply at all :(, it seem the the fw blob has to be decoded, on v3.1 the update procedure seem to not be enabled.
DC1MC
At the moment I only have the first 2048 bytes but when I find the correct answer, I should receive the remining blocks.
I suppose that we may miss the 4096 remaining bytes of the bootloader at the end so this won't be usable like this. But one step at a time...
More after lunch ;-)
At the moment I only have the first 2048 bytes but when I find the correct answer, I should receive the remining blocks.
I suppose that we may miss the 4096 remaining bytes of the bootloader at the end so this won't be usable like this. But one step at a time...
More after lunch ;-)
You noticed that the data are just the bytes from the firmware binary file?
The decryption (if my assumption of encrytped data is correct) most certainy takes place inside the STM32 and not in the PC executable.
I hope we can at least get the offsets and sizes of the encrypted/compressed packages. It will help with the decryption/decompression.Almost all the packet having the same size, and the decoding being done by the FP MCU, I would suppose there is no compression but rather some sort of XOR treatment with a constant key. The MCU has not a lot of power and it has to go fast.
Best of luck and if you need an extra pair of eyes/hands and a sacrificial device, I'm around :box:.You are more than welcome! Not sure we need a sacrificial device for decoding. We have to think of some code or constants that might be in the update and that could lead to the key.
Almost all the packet having the same size, and the decoding being done by the FP MCU, I would suppose there is no compression but rather some sort of XOR treatment with a constant key.I'd expect there to be lots of repeated sequences if it was a simple constant key XORed with the data but there aren't any. A block cipher like AES is easily implemented in a STM32 so my guess is that it is encrypted but with something stronger that constant key XOR. ST uses the same STM32F103 in their ST-Link dongles and they use AES to encrypt the firmware as well. They've implemented it in a really bizarre way however and decrypt the binaries in the update tool then reencrypt it with a random key supplied by the ST-Link bootloader.
Either they are using the "undocumented" 128KB of the MCU, or there is a lot of extra code for obfuscation.I'd say this was nearly certain. There are enough manufacturers out there that don't care about the official specs by doing things like using a STM32F101 for USB even though that part doesn't officially support it. Exploiting the extra unofficial flash in a "64KB" STM32F103 is fairly common now. Supposedly there have been some STM32F103C8s found that do only have 64KB flash though. The GD32 clones don't but they're completely different inside.
If I am right and if the last parameter is a sort of 16bits CRC, than it would make sens to check the CRC and decode at the same time. Which would lead to a 16 bits key...
Well... basically that is already a CRC, even if you don't take the 2-complement. And there are a lot of different CRCs ... ;)If I am right and if the last parameter is a sort of 16bits CRC, than it would make sens to check the CRC and decode at the same time. Which would lead to a 16 bits key...
The last parameter is just the 16-Bit sum of all the bytes in a block, so no real CRC.
Did a simple XORSearch (https://blog.didierstevens.com/programs/xorsearch/)for strings that must be in there, to find it with common simple obfuscations like XOR, ROL, ROT, SHIFT, ADD. No luck
(tried case insensitive FeelTech, Wave, Sine, Freq as strings). No luck. So its a little more then so simple 1 byte obfuscation. Maybe a better 32 bit hash or so. Or they stacked 2 obfuscations.
Also I'd like to point out the file is 100048 bytes. Too much for a CPU update, too little for a CPU+FPGA update.
And of course, any proper update should be MCU+ FPGA (64K + 384K)
So if a 64KB firmware, then there is 32K+1744B too much.
Either they are using the "undocumented" 128KB of the MCU, or there is a lot of extra code for obfuscation.
Well... basically that is already a CRC, even if you don't take the 2-complement. And there are a lot of different CRCs ... ;)
You are right, I should have said checksum. I will correct the protocol description post.Well... basically that is already a CRC, even if you don't take the 2-complement. And there are a lot of different CRCs ... ;)
I don't think so. A CRC is based on polynomial division and not on an arithmetic sum, see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyclic_redundancy_check
I am not sure if there is a polynom which would give the same result as the arithmetic sum, so maybe it is a special case.
Anyway, the difference is not really important here. Regarding encryption: AES would be easy to implement and is fast and small enough. And then of course there are many different other encryption algorithms which are more than good enough for this kind of application and which require less space than AES.
Just reading back your latest post Fremen, do you think theres a hidden function accessed by front panel buttons that drops the unit into update mode?I have no way to be sure but the v5.8 PC software did not required to do something special, appart maybe not to remove the USB cable during update. It just seems to be serial commands like other commands it uses (wave download for example). My V3.2 firmware did not respond to the update requests so I would guess that this function is at least not supported by device with firmware <= v3.2.
@fremen67 - the main purpose of this exercise is not to get hold of feeltech buggy crap, but to be able to offer a comfortable way to the people to upgrade the device without having to resort to extra programmers and even opening the device. And also offering a way back to the original firmware if needed (i.e. for warranty purposes).I understand clearly the benefit of upgrading firmware for every one but as already said, even with a decoded upgrade firmware, we will still miss the boatloader to make the whole think work: the code which does the upgrade can't erase itself... and if the upgrade functionnality is not available with firmware < v3.2 at least, then none of use would have access to this bootloader. It would be easier to wait for someone to receive a v3.4 device and see if that function is available.
This is why it's still interesting to try to get a hold of the firmware update process, load a custom fw to read and send back the bootloader, to see which key combination activates the update process and then managing the firmware updates will be much easier.
Cheers,
DC1MC
For me it was only several '?' and somewhere in between these the text 'USB' in a dialog (an ok/cancle dialog I think) directly after you hit the start button. There you hit the left button and then it runs for some seconds and you get a new error dialog with some '?' the text 'USB' and a '!'.
Looks like the software asks the unit to to do the update but the unit does not respond like expected concerning what we already know about the process of what you can read here.
No change on the display of the unit ,I already tried swapping out ch340 drivers extracting feeltechs original infs ,but that was just the same , incidently running the machine in chinese language made no difference either :-DD
I tried changing the baud rate of the com port ,no difference , I think there has to be a routine to drop the unit into boot mode that were missing out ,thats why they cant com , I wonder would translating the latest chinese released documents the give us any clues ?
Try to power it up while pressing 1, 2 or more random buttons. You may find something.
Fremen67, I tested SW release 0.7 and I didn't find anything : it works fine. I still have to test SWEEP with VCO input.Hi Dom,
I noticed 2 things:
1) when AM modulation is activated on Sine wave, CH1 amplitude decrease and the signal is not modulated. Then it works fine with CH2 activated.
see pic1-3 , carrier CH1 100KHz sine 2V ppk on 50 ohms, mod CH2 sine 1KHz on 50 ohms, both no offset
2) with FSK, ASK, PSK modulations, CH2 dutycycle is not taken into account
see pic4, CH1 = 100KHz 2V ppk on 50 ohms, HOP freq = 20KHz, CH2=1Hz 1.5 V ppk on 50 ohms
and a question : calibration must me performed in Hi-Z ?
Cheers
Dom.
Hi,You are welcome! :-+
I completed my tests on BluePill & PC SW release 0.7 with VCO IN. I diddn't find any problem, works well.
Attached a picture of the combination of frequency sweep and amplitude modulation by a ramp on CH2.
Many Thks fremen67.
OK, I recover on my mistake with the original Feeltech PC SW : I used to work with fremen67's one and I forgot the behavior and use of Feeltech's:Does it work correctly when using directly the FP, without PC Software?
During my test, I ignored the "parameter" cell so as I didn't define the AM modulation factor and so no way to get an AM modulation.
So now fremen67, I can say that I got the save behavior with Feeltech PC SW on AM modulation : as you guessed, it is not in the bluePill firmware :
CH1 = sine 100KHz 2Vpp on 50 ohms, no offset and CH2 = sine 1000Hz 1.5Vpp no offset
I set 50% as parameter.
I put CH1 ON and I get a 1.03V constant amplitude 100KHz sine wave on the scope.
I click on AM Mod : the amplitude decrease to a constant 528 mV pp amplitude
I put CH2 ON and the amplitude come back to a constant 1.03V pp amplitude
I click again on AM Mod button to get a 100 Khz modulated signal.
Dom.
Does it work correctly when using directly the FP, without PC Software?
I had to add an ON/OFF button for each function on the PC Software because otherwise it was impossible to handle correctly the start and stop of these functions.
I just made a test on modulation function with PC Software v0.7 and the modulations seems to start each time I push the modulation ON/OFF button...
What would be a lot less trouble was if we had a chinese Fy6600 owner translate for us directly the pop up windows .
what's the mention of USB in the big boxIt says during the upgrade, make sure not to disconnect the USB connection between the computer and the signal generator.
why the USB error message when the USB connection is already working?As you said, it is just a generic error. It must be expecting a specific response and it isn't getting it so just says USB connection error. The actual USB connection itself is okay.
Does anyone have a comparison of the HP 33120A to a F***Tech FY-6600? In particular jitter, but general performance also.
The last few months I've bough a bunch of 90's vintage HP gear. The user experience is so much better that I really don't feel much like messing with this turkey. My programmers arrived, so I can repackage the thing into a PC interface unit, but I'm increasingly beginning to despise Chinese T & M gear.
If anyone in the US is interested in a V 3.0 60 MHz FY-6600 PM me so we can discuss. I mounted a 3 wire IEC socket the day before it borked itself. Ran great for 2-3 hours. I turned it off and went to bed. Next day it had the classic screen corruption.
I look at 2 shelves of HP gear and I look at the F***Tech and I'm left thinking WTF am I doing with this?
Try to power it up while pressing 1, 2 or more random buttons. You may find something.
The engineering mode for frquency calibration is entered by pressing and holding the front panel power and Ch1 buttons whilst turning on the main power switch at the back. It's probably the same, or something very similar (Power + ?), to go into update mode (assuming v3.2 has one).
Boy, that's much better but the amount of jitter in that oscillator is unbelievable.
Fremen67,Hi miti,
I just received my bluepill. It doesn't seem to work for me. It is detected, I can adjust things, I hear the relay clicking when the amplitude reaches about 5V but there's nothing coming out of either channel. FY6600 Ver. 3.3 with bluepill V0.7.
Hi fremen67,OK. Strange. Did you use 50 ohms output load ?
Yes DC seems to respond but the level is way off. It is almost double of what I set.
OK. Strange. Did you use 50 ohms output load ?
@Miti
May I ask about your setup for the swept filter pictures you posted. Is your 6600 model with the blue-pill board? and are you creating a ramp signal on CH2 and feeding it into vco-in?
I can’t seem to get it right with my unmoded 6600. If I use an external ramp, can get it similar waveform but not with the 6600 alone. Admittedly, not very experienced in this field.
Thanks for any hints.
Below is a list of DC voltages with and without 50 ohm load.
SET 50 Hi-Z Z [Ohm]
1V 0.76 1.53 49.67
2V 1.52 3.03 50.17
3V 2.37 4.7 50.43
4V 3.45 6.26 55.11
5V 3.95 7.79 50.71
-1V -0.75 -1.5 50.00
-2V -1.5 -3.01 49.83
-3V -2.34 -4.64 50.43
-4V -3.11 -6.17 50.41
-5V -3.89 -7.71 50.45
Below is a list of DC voltages with and without 50 ohm load.
At least it has almost 50 Ohm output impedance :)Code: [Select]SET 50 Hi-Z Z [Ohm]
1V 0.76 1.53 49.67
2V 1.52 3.03 50.17
3V 2.37 4.7 50.43
4V 3.45 6.26 55.11
5V 3.95 7.79 50.71
-1V -0.75 -1.5 50.00
-2V -1.5 -3.01 49.83
-3V -2.34 -4.64 50.43
-4V -3.11 -6.17 50.41
-5V -3.89 -7.71 50.45
@cybermaus: As my minipro was connected to the FY6600 I also tried with a v3.1 dump. I can also reproduce the problem you have. It comes from the FPGA continuously reporting after the init that the flash is busy, which blocks the flash read test. A time-out will solve the problem in the next blepill version.
I attached the converted v3.3 flash dump plus a photo, just for teasing ;-)
Boy, that's much better but the amount of jitter in that oscillator is unbelievable.
Interestingly enough, the square wave (jitter only arises in square wave signals) jitter specs are competitive with if not entirely better than any of the lower spec (but much higher price) signal generators from HP, Rigol, and Siglent
Boy, that's much better but the amount of jitter in that oscillator is unbelievable.
Interestingly enough, the square wave (jitter only arises in square wave signals) jitter specs are competitive with if not entirely better than any of the lower spec (but much higher price) signal generators from HP, Rigol, and Siglent
Facts and fictions are not often equal. Do you have any data behind your claim or is just trumpth instead of truth.
Manufacturer is perhaps not interest about facts (ref. published some kind of details/specs) but if any other have facts, please do not hide facts.
Where I can find manufacturer published FY6600 jitter specifications based to reliable measurements for Square wave (or what ever wave) or even somehow trusted third party measured data.
Example Siglent low end SDG1000X series:'
Square wave and Pulse Max (aka worst case)
Jitter (rms), Cycle to cycle 300 ps + 0.05 ppm of period
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/?action=dlattach;attach=453376;image)
In this image just one real measurement for simple example. (freq selected so that it is not any "golden" freq related to reference and/or sampling rate (what is 150MSa/s in SDG1000X)
Of course Arb have cycle-cycle peak peak jitter 6.7ns (1000/150) excluding some "golden" special frequencies. Also triangle wave have this jitter. This is more (worse) than 4ns what is sampling period based jitter in FY6600 (what is FY6600 real total cycle-cycle jitter is unknown least for me without any real trusted measured data)
Note that in example image have sum of all errors, not only generator. With this level of jitter there come also oscilloscope trigger jitter, noise and timebase jitter must be taken into account. Only what can say is that SDG jitter is unknown amount less than total jitter displayed in image.
seems like the Siglent-dealer parse this entire board,
and whenever the single magic word 'Siglent' is spoken,
they are on board and enlighten you...
@rf-loop takes the new SDG1060X (X suffix!!!) worth 500€
and compares it to 85€ FY6660 - makes it sense?
OK, Square has nearly no jitter, other Waves have ~7ns ,
Feeltech has 4ns and this is less, or not?
So @SMB784 is right, this is 'entirely better'
And all the allready sold old Siglent 800 or 1000 without 'X'
and Rigols and so on with 100 or 150 MSa/s
are worser than Feeltech with 250 MSa/s.
This is exactly what @SMB784 said.
This is what Siglent says:
edit, image added
Back on waveform files, the FY6600 will accept CSV files, but ONLY if the file contains nothing but the data values up to a maximum of 8192 points. Clearing out the other cells and info left by wafeform creation software only takes a few seconds in the case of those uploaded by soundtec, so it's just the same as copying the data values into a new text file. In fact, the software accepts *.txt files as well, so there's no need even ro rename them to *.fy.
I also manually edited one, they are not CSV, they are normal TXT files!
Did you try making one with the tool?
This *.FYC file is next used to calculate the actual points in the waveform numerically, which is in the *.FY file. The latter is just a list of 8192 floating point values between -1 and 1
I attached 1 set as example (4 Sine waveforms added together)
Edit: I checked: all values are suffixed by x20 x20 x0d x0a
meaning <space> <space> <cr> <lf>
The last line is padded with an extra empty line x0d x0a
Is it worth getting or do I risk ending up with a 115€ brick?
I can get it shipped from a Germany warehouse, so I could at least hope for a basic 2 year warranty (and the seller also advertises 2 year warranty).
That last one you sent loaded up fine for me in version 6 Precaud,
DaveR - I just saw your post. That file is 4096 data points. It loads into the 6800 fine for me too, except every point is duplicated. Try the attached one and see if that works. Meanwhile, I'll look for fremen67's 0.7 version and try it.
To verify the data is correct, I tried loading the file into the Text Window (using Loading Area 2) so I could examine the data and see if it was being converted correctly. This window does not work correctly, it displays all values as 0, 1, or -1. I turned off "auto-resize data", with the same results. I then tried sending the data to the 6800 (loading Area 2 goes to ARB2 waveform). The waveform sent was the same array of 0, 1, and -1 values. So loading into the Text Window destroys the data, and there's no way to verify that the data values are being converted correctly.
I never could understand what the Text Window was supposed to be doing - even fremen's version seems to just convert all the data points to integers (try loading the sinc-pulse file I uploaded earlier, and you'll see the waveform in block form with values -1 to 5).
If you upload to Loading Area 2, won't you overwrite the factory-stored square wave there? The empty loading areas are from 64 back to ?? (can't remember offhand).
Theres a guy I know who runs a reseach project for one of the universities here ,he's invloved in siesmic data aquisition from sea bottom tranducers around the coast ,I bet he could save massively on his overheads by creating his own supercomputer from PI's.
If you upload to Loading Area 2, won't you overwrite the factory-stored square wave there? The empty loading areas are from 64 back to ?? (can't remember offhand).
Ive been trying out a few of the proprietary wave editors again ,no success as far as getting V6 SW to read waveforms produced by either easywave or TTI waveman, it either stalls or crashes the Feeltech software . I only managed to reload a previously stored waveform created on V6 . Maybe Feeltec need to re-look at the compatibillity here as well .I still cant find a library of waveforms that I can easily slot into the 66/68 hundred
Does anyone have anecdotal experience on where is currently the best place to buy a FY6800? Amazon US doesn't have any yet, and something tells me this is not the time for me to start randomly selecting *Bay vendors and trusting to luck. :P
On the 6600 the encoder has a push switch button ,this allows you to change the display to uHz Hz Mhz etc , its the OK button on the 6800 does that ,I wasnt sure from your post if you had figured out how to toggle Mhz/hz in the display or not .
And yes do keep posting your thoughts or possible improvements here .
... I can't see any reason for C82 going bad other than it being just a faulty capacitor (which turned into a 63 ohm resistor), ...Would that C82 happen to be an ordinary cheap ceramic SMD? Under a supposedly hot spot? Perhaps uneven thermal expansions, ceramic or its ends breaking, leading to a broken cap? (Certainly the cap could have been bad to start with, or partially damaged from e.g. soldering process, add some extra stress later...)
... (C82 is one of the 100nF bypass caps to the IC5A/B op amp, half-under the heatsink on the main board), ...
Unfortunately, the thread was started by someone not actually interested in being a forum member.Nothing a moderator can't fix.
It was decided a while ago to keep the same thread going as the FY6600 and FY6800 are essentially the same item, and anything discussed about one applies to the other. A new thread for the FY6800 alone would potentially result in masses of accumulated information being missed by new searchers who aren't aware of the history of the two devices. Likewise, questions posted in an FY6800 thread would get missed by knowledgeable FY6600 owners who could otherwise provide help and answers.We can decide all we want, but the thread isn't going to be found by people interested in the FY6800 very quickly if they weren't already familiar with the thread. I've asked a moderator to rename the thread.
If this was a car forum, would you have one thread discussing the engine performance of a blue version of a certain car, and another thread discussing the same thing about the red coloured version of the same car?
I've been using my FY6800 pretty much as the generic test signal source for my troubleshooting and repair efforts; it's nice to be able to check gear with swept frequency and amplitude as well as single frequency input.
I use mine almost exclusively for audio. Running it into my HP331A I see that the distortion in the range under 100KHz is moderate - about 0.25% or so. Honestly I'm not interested in extending the bandwidth or output level of my generator per se; but has anyone seen or tested a mod which will reduce the distortion at audio frequencies into normal 10K-100KΩ loads? That's about the only thing which would be handy for the work I do.
It was decided a while ago to keep the same thread going as the FY6600 and FY6800 are essentially the same item, and anything discussed about one applies to the other. A new thread for the FY6800 alone would potentially result in masses of accumulated information being missed by new searchers who aren't aware of the history of the two devices. Likewise, questions posted in an FY6800 thread would get missed by knowledgeable FY6600 owners who could otherwise provide help and answers.
We can decide all we want, but the thread isn't going to be found by people interested in the FY6800 very quickly if they weren't already familiar with the thread.
It's the most elegant solution.
Im wondering is the limits in terms of distortion in the FY 66/6800 due to the dac/filter and the bits , in which case Im not sure if theres much benefit in distortion terms from changing out the op amps , surely though if you wanted the highest quality signal from the unit ,say for audio testing which often will require smaller signal voltages ,you'd be better off using the sig gen to make a large amplitude signal ,then using a passive attenuator network to attenuate that to a level suitable for your purpose , in otherwords does producing a smaller output voltage in the FY limit the bit rate of the output signal ?. Could a specially made switched attenuator, optimised for 50 ohms, used after the generator allow an improvement in distortion ? I know that in the case of using a sound card for audio testing a couple of the smarter people in another forum I visit made up a special attenuator allowing attenuation in Db ,the signal generator is then run at 0db Fs digital for minimum digital artifacts. If at higher levels in the 66/6800distortion of the output stage is the limiting factor then power supply and op amp upgrades are worthwhile. For most audio testing the small distortion in the output signal of this unit is of no consequence ,it only comes into play really if its distortion your trying to measure . I guess a computer and high quality dac /attenuator is a better option for producing signals in the audio range with very low distortion in any case .
Where did you buy in BG with free shipping, my suplyer of choice (TME) doesn't seem to stock it?
Where did you buy in BG with free shipping, my suplyer of choice (TME) doesn't seem to stock it?
Direct order to TI - store.ti.com
What tollerance are you guys seeing on the 499, 1.5k ,10kand 50(2x100ohm) parts ?
Also, according to the spec sheet for other similar generators like the more expensive and less capable models from siglent, rigol, and gw instek, their jitter is as bad or worse for non-sinusoidal waveforms
Also, according to the spec sheet for other similar generators like the more expensive and less capable models from siglent, rigol, and gw instek, their jitter is as bad or worse for non-sinusoidal waveforms
As far as I know square wave and rectangle wave is not sinusoidal.
What Siglent model have this kind of jitter with Square/Rectangle (other than 50% square)
But then yes, if look Triangle/saw, pulse, arb, there is jitter related to clock. (and example cheaper Siglent models may have example 150MSa/s clock what mean 6.7ns cycle to cycle jitter exept some "golden" frequencies.
But as seen here some previous example images about FY6600 using square have lot of jitter, cheap Siglent model 1000X do not have this type of jitter ancluding also rectangle waves = square duty other than 50% (not even with 0.001% duty what can also call as "pulse" but in this mode rise and fall time or pulse width can not adjust using 0.1ns adjust steps) My opinion is that Square and Sine need do so that they do not have 1 clock jitter. Other waveforms can perhaps accept more in cheap simple equipments.
Siglent do not have this "1 clock" square jitter in real life and also -- not in specs sheet (exept pulse mode, triangle and arb)
Is it better to stay with facts and not trumpths.
Also, according to the spec sheet for other similar generators like the more expensive and less capable models from siglent, rigol, and gw instek, their jitter is as bad or worse for non-sinusoidal waveforms
As far as I know square wave and rectangle wave is not sinusoidal.
What Siglent model have this kind of jitter with Square/Rectangle (other than 50% square)
But then yes, if look other non sinusoidal as example triangle/saw, pulse, arb, there is jitter related to clock. (and example cheaper Siglent models may have example 150MSa/s clock what mean 6.7ns cycle to cycle jitter exept some "golden" frequencies.
But as seen here some previous example images about FY6600 using square have lot of jitter, cheap Siglent model 1000X do not have this type of jitter ancluding also rectangle waves = square duty other than 50% (not even with 0.001% duty what can also call as "pulse" but in this mode rise and fall time or pulse width can not adjust using 0.1ns adjust steps) My opinion is that Square and Sine need do so that they do not have 1 clock jitter. Other waveforms can perhaps accept more in cheap simple equipments.
Siglent do not have this "1 clock" square jitter in real life and also -- not in specs sheet (exept , triangle and arb)
Is it better to stay with facts and not trumpths.
I never specified which models I was referring to. In fact for the SDG830 (https://www.siglent.eu/siglent-sdg830-functiongenerator.html) (>$300) there is 1 clock cycle (8ns) for arbitrary wave forms, which are non sinusoidal. Nothing that I said was untrue.
The main point of what I was saying is that the 4ns jitter in the FY6600&6800 is to be expected, and is actually less than that of competing generators in some modes.
Also, according to the spec sheet for other similar generators like the more expensive and less capable models from siglent, rigol, and gw instek, their jitter is as bad or worse for non-sinusoidal waveforms
Hi TheilJ ,FedEx is correct and you owe them the duties. As a large company they also have a lot of experience with getting unwilling people to part with their money. You won't win and it'll be a major headache. Just pay.
Didnt hear about that fault before , could be an issue with the Stm32 . You could try controling the signal board directly with a ch340 usb dongle as detailed earlier in this topic , and check your main board is still good . Also in the newest software from Feeltech contains a firmware upgrade option via USb ,maybe that might overwrite some corrupted part of the memory in your machine, definately worth a try .
I was sent a free FY6800 due to my contributions here , it arrived via fe-ex ,no import duty was collected at the time of delivery , later I was sent a letter by Fedex demanding the import duty for the machine ,ive refused to pay, they waved their fee ,but they still want the basic of duty payable to customs and revenue on my behalf , now they threaten with legal action . I contacted Feeltech ,explained the situation ,got a reply, but heard no more from them after :(
Win loose or draw the debt is in my name , it looks like debt collectors will be sent on Fedex's behalf if I dont stump up the cash ,Only way I could get out of paying is if I surrender the item and it becomes property of Customs and excise or choose to mount a legal defense of the situation. I wonder can I settle the cost directly with Customs and excise and allow Fed-ex(torsion) to recover their own funds ;D
I still do think its Feeltech is liable for the import duty ,Ive tried to explain the situation to them in simple language ,but Im not sure they care :=\
Didnt hear about that fault before , could be an issue with the Stm32 . You could try controling the signal board directlyThe main board and front panel buttons work, it's just that the display stays blank (white). I suppose it maybe a connection issues or faulty display. Is there a schematic for the front panel / display connection somewhere?
I was sent a free FY6800 due to my contributions here , it arrived via fe-ex ,no import duty was collected at the time of delivery , later I was sent a letter by Fedex demanding the import duty for the machine ,ive refused to pay, they waved their fee ,but they still want the basic of duty payable to customs and revenue on my behalf
Hello Dear Friends! there is a small video :) model 6800
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg2_h8T7cUA (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg2_h8T7cUA)
Hi Pio,
The KKMoon and Feeltech versions are the same product, except for the badge on the front. The mainboard is marked 'Feeltech' in both units. Firmware in both models on sale is probably still at 1.6 at the moment, but the latest models from the factory may already be at 1.7. Updating from 1.6 to 1.7 is quick and simple - the KKMoon model connects to the Feeltech server and the update process is automatic once you start it via the control software.
Regards,
Dave
thank you, what if the unit comes with 1.5 version? do you think it is upgradable?
thank you, what if the unit comes with 1.5 version? do you think it is upgradable?
Have you actually got one with v1.5? I thought the first versions on sale started at 1.6, but as the FY6800 was designed to be upgradeable, v1.5 (if there are any) should be as well. Soundtec had one of the very first 6800s from the factory and his has been updated ok, from whichever firmware version it started with.
Hi Pio - those screenshots are probably just taken from an early model as the 6800 went into production, and still used as examples for advertising on ebay etc.. I doubt very much whether you'll get anything other than v1.6 or 1.7 if you buy one now.
Regards,
Dave
Hi, cybermouse,
Just to be sure, I tried powering the modified board with new op amps from the original switching power supply. Sure enough, the waveform is clipped and heavily distorted in high amplitude settings. So, the voltage from that supply is not enough. +-15V is a must (no wonder, this is to be expected).
Hi, cybermaus,
The problem is mostly due to the "30021" op amp. As you say, it is only just above 7Vpp into 50 ohms. And I had tried at first powering the generator from my lab supply with +-15V. The improvement was miserable if any. So, it must be the op amp.
With the THS3095 the generator easily outputs 20Vpp (10Vpp into 50R), no problem. Still, if to be picky, the behavior of the THS3095 is in line with what the manufacturer shows in their datasheet for the component. The pictures bellow are taken from the datasheet. At high frequencies, as those graphs also show, I see some distortion (not clipping though but exactly the same as manufacturer graphs show). The manufacturer suggests properly paralleling two op-amps for each channel (second picture) to remove most of the distortion. That is what major manufacturers, like Siglent, and others do in their designs. For the sake of interest, I might have a look at that later (accidentally, I do have two more THS3095s in my drawer). By the way, Texas Instruments have recently introduced a new power opamp - THS3491. If what they say is true, that one is a real beast with unmatched performance. But they do not have them yet.
Sure, the generator steps down to 5Vpp at 20MHz. But that is to be expected. Normal behavior. Difficult to achieve frequent swings at high voltages.
Welcome to the 6600 Club, Johnny! You've just reminded me that I still haven't got round to fitting the 3491s I bought for my FY6800 several weeks ago. I'd always planned to do a side by side comparison with the 3095s I put in the FY6600, but I got sidetracked onto other projects and forgot about it. It's now back on the list of jobs to be done! I'd recommend doing the D75J TCXO upgrade to your 6600 as well - it gives a huge improvement to frequency accuracy and stability.
Regards,
Dave
...but you'll need a hot air gun to remove the old one unless you can rig up a piece of wire on your soldering iron to melt the four contacts at once.Commenting on the basis of only looking at tear-down photos of it, I have to guess which components is the osc. But if I guessed right, it seems to have 4 exposed pins/pads. In such case, the Chip Quik removal alloy might also work. I've used it couple times, and it worked really nicely, though I have only used it up to an SO-8 package so far. It worked so nicely with the small "kit" I bought first, that I bought a bigger bunch of it soon after.
Hi Johnny,
That's quite a tome you've just sent: forgive me for not replying in detail, but it sounds like you're an old-time tinkerer like myself. I started off on various bulletin boards in the very early days of the internet, before the likes of Compuserve and AOL appeared, and well before the WWWeb took off. Usenet served me well for years, but with everything being web-based now, you just have to accept the quirks and foibles that come with it. You soon grow into it!
Back to business, no-one has come up with anything better than the D75J TCXO so far. It's cheap, but the only place you can get one is Digikey (order in the UK, get it in a couple of days from the US, but postage doubles the cost unless your order is over £40), and it is a drop in replacement - but you'll need a hot air gun to remove the old one unless you can rig up a piece of wire on your soldering iron to melt the four contacts at once. I remember looking at those Chinese TCXOs a few months ago, but they are rather expensive to take a chance on, and they'll probably need mounting on stilts, or a daughterboard, as there'll be no room on the PCB for them.
On the subject of soldering irons, my 18W Antex bit the dust about 5 years ago and I had to continue with the 30W Antex I bought in the 1980s, using a bit that was too large for most modern needs. A couple of years ago I switched to Hakko T12 stuff - it was like driving a new Jag after getting out of a Ford Anglia. Even the Chinese clones are good, and the right tools make modding a breeze!
I need to have a read of the 3491 datasheet again, going by what you say, as I was sure they were a simple direct replacement for the 3091/3095 even with the floating pins.
Regards,
Dave
Hi Johny ,welcome.
Wow a three day read through , and then a re read .
I probably read each post at least twice by now , but in small chunks ,
I have both 66 and 68 hunderd , the 68 was a won in a competition held by Feeltech itself , there was several other people very worthy of a free machine for their contributions ,but if your not in you cant win .
Ive recently got myself a pair of Hewlett Packard HP200cd tube sine oscillators , in the 50's these were state of the art and in fact the product line lasted well into the mid 80's tubes and all , they did drop the tube rectifier in the later models though ,about .5 % thd was as good as they do normally , now with the Feeltech I can easily get very very low distortion audio frequency sine waves ,the key to this is to use an external attenuator and run the unit full throttle ,thus minimising any digital artifacts and using up the full bit rate of the unit . Theres no doubt the original power supply would be marginal with higher powered op amps and under volted too .Any offset dialed in at 20v pk-pk instantly clips the outputs , theres no margin .
I went linear ,with a transformer and regulators ,just like a conventional op amp audio set up .
I did fool around with a few other switchers as well , I tried to run the original psu with the 5 volt unloaded but the +/- rails dropped way low .
Deriving the three voltages from one switch psu I dont like , you'll find that under load the original psu droops under high voltage swing on the +/- rails , thats no good at all for fidelity. There have been a handfull hoping to make further improvements , including the custom software from Fremens, he ironed out some of the waveform compatibility issues for us in the Feeltech package , and of course allowed further tweaks if you used a programed STM32 microcontroller . I guess everyone's just settled into using their units now and are happy with the improvements they made , I would seriously think about a larger heatsink for the newer TI op amps though maybe even extra wings of aluminium extrusion screwed into the original .
Hi Johnny,
Have you seen these SMPSUs?
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMPSU-Switched-Mode-Chassis-Power-Supply-12v-0-3A-12v-0-2A-5v-2A-SMPS1-432-/141117111577?var=&hash=item667e84f884 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMPSU-Switched-Mode-Chassis-Power-Supply-12v-0-3A-12v-0-2A-5v-2A-SMPS1-432-/141117111577?var=&hash=item667e84f884)
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMPSU-Switched-Mode-Chassis-Power-Supply-5v-2A-15v-300mA-15v-200mA-Toko-783-/361575419603?hash=item542f930ed3 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/SMPSU-Switched-Mode-Chassis-Power-Supply-5v-2A-15v-300mA-15v-200mA-Toko-783-/361575419603?hash=item542f930ed3)
They look the part, if nothing else, but the seller is an anus - so caveat emptor!! See the negative feedback on him (which I can corroborate from personal experience.)
That TCXO module you found must be a new one, and it's cheaper than the oscillator by itself from other suppliers. There's also a Rojon mini TCXO for £22 if you want to be really extravagant:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-TCXO-50-000MHz-50MHZ-0-1ppm-Ultra-precision-Oscillator-audio-DIY-GQ1-XH/382556866867?hash=item59122a8933:g:nIwAAOSwA3dYL7Cj:rk:3:pf:0 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Mini-TCXO-50-000MHz-50MHZ-0-1ppm-Ultra-precision-Oscillator-audio-DIY-GQ1-XH/382556866867?hash=item59122a8933:g:nIwAAOSwA3dYL7Cj:rk:3:pf:0)
I can't see a problem with leaving pins 1 and 4 floating in the case of the 3095: both pins are unconnected on the PCB, so both will float to Vs+ and the device will be permanently enabled (no differential just means no power down control, but the default state is enabled, as would be expected). In the case of the 3491, although the datasheet doesn't recommend leaving PD floating, the device will still be permanently enabled if it is (subject to a probably unlikely stray signal event :)). I wasn't intending to upgrade the 3095s in my FY6600 to 3491s - I was planning to install them in my FY6800 (when I get round to it!) to get a direct comparison between them and the 3095s, more for curiosity and experimentation than anything else. If there happens to be a problem with them I've got spare 3095s I can drop back to as the upgrade from the single 3022.
Regards,
Dave
Thirdly, if you feel the need to match the existing 50MHz 100ppm frequency reference to the counter's display resolution, then install a 50MHz 0.1ppm TCXO (if you're going to bother at all, why only take half measures with a mere 1ppm rated TCXO when you can get hold of a 0.1ppm ROJON part from a Chinese supplier on Ebay for as little as 15 or 16 quid? :)).
Thirdly, if you feel the need to match the existing 50MHz 100ppm frequency reference to the counter's display resolution, then install a 50MHz 0.1ppm TCXO (if you're going to bother at all, why only take half measures with a mere 1ppm rated TCXO when you can get hold of a 0.1ppm ROJON part from a Chinese supplier on Ebay for as little as 15 or 16 quid? :)).
I bought one of these not long ago:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/External-TCXO-clock-PPM-0-1-for-HackRF-one-GPS-Applications-GSM-WCDMA-LTE/173432677234?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/External-TCXO-clock-PPM-0-1-for-HackRF-one-GPS-Applications-GSM-WCDMA-LTE/173432677234?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
and have just looked up the spec in the seller's listing: I thought it was 1ppm, but it's shown as 0.1ppm in the headline, and referred to as 0.1 - 0.5ppm in the description. It's Rojon, but only half the price of those referred to earlier. I wonder how much confidence you can have that 0.1ppm means anything like that accuracy, or that the £15 and £22 TCXO cans contain anything different to this £8 one? The answer, of course, is "none". Caveat emptor, again!
Hi Johnny ,
Its does happen on many Blogs ,Ive found ,long and carefully typed responses can simply end up gone .
A very simple way to help prevent loss is to type into a text file on the desktop ,then once your done ,copy and paste to the Blog page . Alternatively before hitting send , copy and paste what you've written to a text file and save .
Thirdly, if you feel the need to match the existing 50MHz 100ppm frequency reference to the counter's display resolution, then install a 50MHz 0.1ppm TCXO (if you're going to bother at all, why only take half measures with a mere 1ppm rated TCXO when you can get hold of a 0.1ppm ROJON part from a Chinese supplier on Ebay for as little as 15 or 16 quid? :)).
I bought one of these not long ago:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/External-TCXO-clock-PPM-0-1-for-HackRF-one-GPS-Applications-GSM-WCDMA-LTE/173432677234?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/External-TCXO-clock-PPM-0-1-for-HackRF-one-GPS-Applications-GSM-WCDMA-LTE/173432677234?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649)
and have just looked up the spec in the seller's listing: I thought it was 1ppm, but it's shown as 0.1ppm in the headline, and referred to as 0.1 - 0.5ppm in the description. It's Rojon, but only half the price of those referred to earlier. I wonder how much confidence you can have that 0.1ppm means anything like that accuracy, or that the £15 and £22 TCXO cans contain anything different to this £8 one? The answer, of course, is "none". Caveat emptor, again!
Hi Johnny,
I wasn't suggesting that you could use one in the FY6600, just alluding to the same item being on sale for wildly different prices from different suppliers. As for the 10MHz one I bought for £8, I've tested it against RWM on 9996kHz and it comes in at 0.2ppm, which I'm not going to complain about, and I've had a look in the trimmer hole and the trimmer is there, so it's identical to the £18 version here:
https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TCXO-10MHz-10-000000MHz-0-1ppm-Ultra-precision-Crystal-Oscillator-DIY-AUD-GC1-XH/381746677180 (https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/TCXO-10MHz-10-000000MHz-0-1ppm-Ultra-precision-Crystal-Oscillator-DIY-AUD-GC1-XH/381746677180)
I've also put a piece of kapton tape over the can, so now I've got the golden version as well! ;D
Regards,
Dave
=====bulk of previous reply snipped====
[NOTES]
[2] I've just had another look at the description of this "oscillator clock power supply". The dimensions given are "size: 20.8 x 13.2 x 15mm" which is clearly a nonsense unless they're that of the bare TCXO itself which, now I think about it, seems more likely. Double checking against the 74HC04D chip on the board to get a sense of scale confirms I was in the ball park with my original size estimate.
My new estimate of the board's dimensions are now ever so slightly revised downwards to 45 by 30 mm which gives me a touch more leeway on exactly how I'll be mounting it over the fan to catch the incoming airflow without creating unwanted turbulence near the fan blades (which is a sure fire way to drastically reduce the efficacy of these high volume/low pressure axial fans).
I'll want to provide ducting to divert the incoming air past the oscillator board and towards the front in order to minimise losing too much of that hard won cooling air straight out of the rear panel vents which I don't want to block off. I need all the exhaust venting cross sectional area I can recruit to exhaust the warmed over air, hence the ducting so that what does escape via the rear panel vents has already managed to pick up and carry away some heat from the innards of the box.
I've got a few more weeks to install the fan before that TCXO board arrives anyway so I might as well do some testing to make absolutely sure there's not going to be a problem in stealing power from the 5v rail to drive the fan before I start cutting holes in the bottom of the case. I rather doubt there will be a problem but you can't take this stuff for granted. The most likely side effect I'm expecting is a slight boost in the 12v rail voltages which, in moderation, will be no bad thing in this case.
====snip====
Now that I've had it running for a good half hour or so since I clipped the lid back into place, I can no longer detect any warm spots other than on the underside of the case. That, I have to say, is a remarkable improvement for a relatively simple modification. Opening up the RHS vent slots as a final touch should noticeably improve the effectiveness of this forced ventilation modification to the benefit of significantly improved reliability and an extended service life.
====snip====
Is there FOSS FW available that can be loaded on an STM32F103 that will make borked units work when installed on the front panel?I don't think there is anything. fremen67 hasn't been around for months either so no source or newer builds for that avenue.
I lost track of this thread long ago. Is there FOSS FW available that can be loaded on an STM32F103 that will make borked units work when installed on the front panel? I'll buy a socket and program some chips if it can be done. Mostly because I despise F***Tech.
My last recollection was that fremen was using a blue pill, but it required a PC to control it.
Thank you. I couldn't face reading 60 pages. I'd mostly dropped out by page 20 or 30 as I did not have a programmer or blue pill. But I do now.
I got a replacement panel with V 3.1, but not by "sweet talk". But at least 4 others did not. I'd like to help them. In a classic twist of irony I got a front panel after I had purchased a Keysight 33622A from the Keysight eBay store.
I offered to do a review of the FY6600 against the 33622A and attached some 8560A spectrum analyzer plots. But that did not result in the other 4 members with 3.0 units getting relief. Nor did a 2nd less friendly approach. So it's time for me to carry through with what I said I'd do if they did not supply new FPs to the other 4. It will likely prove *far* more expensive than sending out 4 FPs.
If we have the bus protocol worked out I ought to be able to write the front end UI part. It would be a good warm up exercise for writing FOSS DSO FW for Zynq based scopes (e.g. the Instek 2000E and the Siglent 1000X-E). And a pleasant diversion from reverse engineering the DSOs which are rather more complex.
I've sent a PM to fremen67. My concern was that it might have already been done.
Subsequent to my V 3.0 adventure I bought a very nice set of bench gear, mostly early 90's HP gear. I'm 65 and finally gave myself permission to spend the money. But I have many painful memories of when I couldn't afford test gear. My first good scope was a Dumont 1060, a very nice dual trace analog scope which I bought from Tucker Electronics in 1991 for $325 with a 30 day warranty. The horizontal sweep died about day 35. Eventually I traded a couple of spare 144 MB ESDI drives for a wonky 465 which worked well enough to let me fix the Dumont which then let me fix the 465.
After that moves and the turmoil of life left me without a bench setup. I was starting to rebuild a bench as all my other gear has died of old age and will require repairs. But I was still in the penny pinching mode I was taught growing up so Rigol DSO, F***Tech AWG, Tenma 4.5 digit DMM etc. But several friends dying and in particular watching my brother in-law deteriorate from Parkinson's dramatically over 9 months changed my attitude. Though my goals are still the same, good quality low cost T&M gear.
I sent F***Tech 4 photos taken of the screen of an HP 8560A SA of the output of the 33622A and the FY6600 without identifying which was which. I deliberately chose the output levels so that they looked almost identical.
The 33622A was used from Keysight's eBay store, so not as much, but still 30X the 6600. But also 120 MHz rather than 60.
F***Tech told me I had lifetime support and similar BS for about 6 months without actually doing anything about the problem.
Not too sure that FOSS FW for the 6600 will help F***Tech. Relative to a DSO the FPGA code is simple. So writing a complete FOSS FW suite might well lead to a lot more competition. To date I've spent over $1k setting up for the DSO FW project. Right now I'm debating whether to also get a 1102X-E now or later. I already have an Instek GDS-2072E for testing. But long experience has convinced me that writing and testing SW on multiple platforms in 50-100 line increments avoids lots of bugs and other problems..
In a JDS6600 thread, a poster purporting to be with JDS said that they hired the guy who developed the F***Tech AWG who with another member of their staff designed the JDS6600. Interestingly, the FY6600 uses a DAC and the JDS6600 uses an R2R ladder.
====snip====
One final item I feel is worth mentioning, in view of my earlier ramblings about the anomalous power consumption readings I'd noticed in recent days, is that the problem has definitely progressed in that the average power consumption has increased ever so slightly with it spending more time now consuming exactly 10 watts. It now looks more and more like a mundane crappy PSU smoothing cap issue than the result of some rather exotic anomaly in the main and front panel boards.
I guess it's time I stopped talking about testing the caps and actually get some testing done before it's too late and I'm left with no choice but to fit untested replacements.
....snip...
BTW, I still think the JDS6600 is a bag of shite. It's merely a tarted up poor man's FY6600 imho and not worth its £62.48 plus £6.99 economy delivery price tag.
Regards and a merry Xmas, Johnny B Good
....snip...
BTW, I still think the JDS6600 is a bag of shite. It's merely a tarted up poor man's FY6600 imho and not worth its £62.48 plus £6.99 economy delivery price tag.
Regards and a merry Xmas, Johnny B Good
I'm going to have to read through all your ramblings on the F***Tech. It's both entertaining and educational. But you still didn't give a reason for your denigration of the JDS.
Still, it's a great pleasure to encounter someone who both knows what they are writing about and writes well. My BA is in literature, so I have done a lot of reading.
If I didn't have an Instek GDS-2027E sitting open on my bench while I try to sort the JTAG and TTY port I'd have the F***Tech open and follow along.
If you want your full amplitude sine waves to be free of glitches at the zero crossing and half amplitude points, it's best to avoid assembling an R2R ladder network out of even the highest precision resistors available unless you're only going for an 8 bit resolution in your DAC circuit (you'll need to specify resistor values to a precision better than 0.1% for the ninth bit then 0.05% for the tenth and ever tighter by a factor of two each time you add successive bits of resolution to your R2R ladder network).I have some vague memories of reading mentions that the resistor network on JDS isn't all R2R, but something else at one end, apparently exactly for the reason to make it a bit more accurate.
If you want your full amplitude sine waves to be free of glitches at the zero crossing and half amplitude points, it's best to avoid assembling an R2R ladder network out of even the highest precision resistors available unless you're only going for an 8 bit resolution in your DAC circuit (you'll need to specify resistor values to a precision better than 0.1% for the ninth bit then 0.05% for the tenth and ever tighter by a factor of two each time you add successive bits of resolution to your R2R ladder network).I have some vague memories of reading mentions that the resistor network on JDS isn't all R2R, but something else at one end, apparently exactly for the reason to make it a bit more accurate.
Also, IIRC, the manufacturer itself mentioned something about them doing something with the R2R/resistors stuff so that the accuracy would be better than expected with standard way to putting one together. Which I read in between the lines that either it refers to that something-else-than-R2R, and/or perhaps they use binned components (i.e. higher tolerance relative to each other, but not necessarily closer to the nominal value). Maybe... maybe just marketing talk.
I bought such JDS unit (didn't even know about the FY-stuff at the time). The little I have used it so far, the biggest problem isn't tiny errors in the DAC, but larger issues at higher frequencies/amplitudes caused probably by the amplifiers, and power supply noises etc. But I guess the biggest issue depends on what the device is used for.
On the subject of replacing the power supply, here's a video of one guy experimenting with using DC-DC converters:
====link removed====
I replaced that crappy cheap power supply with a transformer and linear stabilizators . Doesn't matter if the transformer is inside or not , as long it's a good one ( with some shielding ) .
Interesting reading back on this flawed but really good value for money Box as it gets to EOL. There are some very cheap 50MHz units on evilbay at present if anyone is in the market with not to many $$ to spend as of today.
Mine after 15 months or so is about to get mothballed (Replacement is a Siglent 2000X) rather than sold for the few $ I might get for it so I chased up the last versions of the Windoze software and any updated Labview drivers and such to pack away with it.
Overall unlike some here my experience has overall been a positive one after sorting out the floating power supply and with a little trial and the correct tongue angle improving some levels on the board. Frequency has always been out by a bit but generally this is a non issue and if it was I checked and tweaked a few counts if needed.
Sub 10Meg for the complete software package that allows Arb Signal creation and driving the front panel via USB kicks the butt of the Siglent by comparison and as per the couple of comparison waveforms @30MHz Sine and 10MHz Square it holds up fairly well against a Generator at current pricing 10 times more $$. Coin toss for the Sine and suffering a little on the square.
Remembered fondly as it goes to the 'cupboard' to maybe never return :)
Putting in the cupboard and moving on is really an extension of gaining some more accurate equipment that you 'know' will output or input closer to the truth and provide a better series of ranges.
I made do for a very long while without one at all. Having one made life easier and saved me time using bread boarded or lashed up worse performing oscillators. So for someone without they are still a good thing with a simple mod to the power supply to improve the floating outputs. Much beyond that time and money spent to still get a box with still questionable accuracy and output limits doesn't make logical sense to me.
On a budget or after a first Sig Gen you can do way worse for more money. :)
Ist it worth to get a FY6800 if you already have a Toellner 7401 and the build in AWG from Rigol MSO5000?
Or better a old wavetek Model 275? I think the wavetek is to old or? Waveform has to be tipped in over the buttons because i don't have a GPIB..
Hi, got a FY6800 now..
Managed somebody to run the software in Linux? Maybe with wine? Which special things do i have to install in wine(winetricks)?
Is there another Linux software around?
Which hacks are worth to do on the fy6800?
Adding THS3095 / THS3491 ? Although switching to another 50MHz TCXO? Which one will fit directly in the pcb? There are some 0.28ppm 50MHz available at mouser? Or a bit cheaper 2.5ppm. Both better than 100ppm
Thx for the summary. I will test it and give a Report.
You may have seen it but perhaps others may not! :) i just wonder if FY68 is as terrible as FY66!? Very few seams dare buy one! ;D
You may have seen it but perhaps others may not! :) i just wonder if FY68 is as terrible as FY66!? Very few seams dare buy one! ;D
Sorry but that statement is :bullshit: in spite of the attempted humour. The FY6600 was a flawed product certainly and some had failures but a lot more didn't and it represents great value. There has been a lot more paid for products with much worse performance and issues. The main failing was Feeltech themselves putting up the shutters and not resolving or providing a mechanisim to fix those issues of some customers (firmware support).
Best not to add to much detail on the FY6800 here as there is already several threads with that in the title so it will get lost over time.
What's particularly annoying about that video is the use of "Rockyvision"(tm). I'd imagine motion sickness sufferers would have a hard time trying to watch that video. Why the hell didn't he fix the rocky table before recording his review? I'll often watch repeat videos to pick out stuff I may have missed the first (or even second) time round but not this one.
UVE\n
, the device responds with for example v1.7\n\n
Johnny B Good thank you very much for this great description to improve the FY6800 :-+.
I have the FY6800 from KMoon (firmware 1.7.1 but reported as 1.7 with the PC software).
1. Could you please make a picture of the internal modded device to see were you put the fan and the TCXO.
2. About the power supply upgrade, to summarize, what is the easiest way to improve the original one?
4. About the TCXO how to properly connect it (cable to use, ...) to the main board?
I have found the 50MHz version here (https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/50MHZ-hifi-TCXO-0-1ppm-Ultra-precision-Golden-Oscillator-CLOCK-power-supply/32962398016.html?spm=a2g0w.10010108.1000016.1.3d7654acJNShIc&isOrigTitle=true) (several of available).
Thank you
Johnny B Good thank you very much for this great description to improve the FY6800 :-+.
I have the FY6800 from KMoon (firmware 1.7.1 but reported as 1.7 with the PC software).
1. Could you please make a picture of the internal modded device to see were you put the fan and the TCXO.
2. About the power supply upgrade, to summarize, what is the easiest way to improve the original one?
4. About the TCXO how to properly connect it (cable to use, ...) to the main board?
I have found the 50MHz version here (https://fr.aliexpress.com/item/50MHZ-hifi-TCXO-0-1ppm-Ultra-precision-Golden-Oscillator-CLOCK-power-supply/32962398016.html?spm=a2g0w.10010108.1000016.1.3d7654acJNShIc&isOrigTitle=true) (several of available).
Thank you
Sorry about the delay in responding. I had hoped to get the chance to take some photos to post here rather than having to say, as I now am, that I'll post some up as soon as I get another chance to open it up. Right now, I'm rather preoccupied with a little DIY GPSDO project to let me more accurately and swiftly calibrate the 50MHz 0.1ppm TXCO upgrade. As soon as I get the chance, I'll be only too happy to post the photos here and do a little showing off. :)
JBG
Thank you Johnny B good for the picture.
Where did you put the minus of the TCXO power supply TCXO (it's seems to go the the earth) and why there resistor (and value)?
Have you made any changes on the power supply (except the ferrite)?
Amplitude attenuation is not normal , but 20Vpp is available only below 20MHz , after that 5Vpp is the maximum allowed .
Maybe you did some simple mistakes in your measurement , like using 20MHz bandwidth limit in your oscillocope ...
The offset can be an issue ... it is possible to be adjusted and calibrated from the pots inside if you read this thread , but is somewhat laborious.
And why using scope passive probes to measure the signal I read an attenuated signal from 3Mhz onward, whereas using BNC-BNC cable the signal maximum amplitude is in agreement with specs up to 30Mhz?
Could the problem lie in the fact that my scope doesn't have 50ohm termination, and I'm using the regular 1Mohm input?
iii) If I use my DSO (1M input) with 10X probe onto the FY6800 BNC input, I get no attenuation until 60Mhz. I observe a 10mV DC offset.
iv) If I use my DSO (1M input) with the BNC-BNC cable supplied with FY6800, I get slight attenuation at higher frequencies (as expected, I think, from this kind of cable), and only slight 1-2mV DC offset (as experienced by Zenith).
Andreax1985,
I redid the measurements using my Siglent SDS 1102CML+.
I had the scope do its auto calibration. I set both channels to 2mV/div and set acquisition to averaging over 16 readings (which gets rid of rapid fluctuations in readings) then called up all voltage measurements. Channe1 1 gives Vpp of between 0.08mV and a mean of -0.08mV. Channel 2 gives Vpp between 0.16mV and 0.24mV with mean between 0.00mV and -0.08mV. The scope looks as if it only deals in voltage steps of 0.08mV on that range.
A 10mV, 0.000mV offset, 100KHz sine from channel 2 of the FY6800 gives a Vpp of 9.4mV and a mean of 1.04mV. Changing the coupling on the scope to AC gives a Vpp of 9.4mV and a mean of zero. Changing back to DC and setting the offset on the FY6800 to -0.001V changes the mean to -0.016mV. Changing the amplitude on the FY6800 to 100mV and offset zero, gives Vpp 0f 102mV and a mean of 1.6mV. A square wave produces near identical results. Note that the mean doesn't change much with amplitude.
I'm inclined to believe that the output of the FY6800 has an offset of about 1mV and that maybe the waveform isn't quite symmetrical, but these are measurements on the limits of what both the scope and DVMs can do. The offset is nothing to worry about, in fact it's pleasantly small, and it's certainly not worth trying to adjust it down further. It seems as if your FY6800 has a similar small offset. If you have some particular need to get the offset down further, you can reduce it by setting the offset on the FY6800.
I had doubts about the 100MHz probes which came with the Siglent, so I compared them against an HP10040A probe using an HP8640A sig gen. The conclusion I came to is that the supplied probes are up to the job. Sometimes they need wiggling so they make a good contact. Top flight probes are nice, but expensive. From what you've said, I think you should spend the money on a better DVM instead.
Generally, I've found my Siglent scope to be surprisingly good and well worth the money, although it has the odd quirk. There's no doubt if you pay more, you get a more capable scope, but I see no need to sell mine and get a better one.
If you're seeing unexpected results when checking out new kit, it's more than likely you have overlooked something vital like properly terminating a test cable. Take a pause from what you've been doing and consider the possibility that you've overlooked something in your test setup before concluding you have been 'sold a pup'. If that doesn't resolve the issue, you can always seek advice from any technical discussion group, whether it's EEVBlog or a usenet group just as Andreax1985 has done in this case. There's nothing wrong in seeking expert advice or a second opinion from your peers.
JBG
And why DC offset is higher with X10 probe than with the unterminated BNC-BNC cable?
All cheap Chinese connectors, adaptors and cables have to be swept over the intended operating range on receipt. I didn't believe it was as bad as it is, but I now have personal experience and an unknown amount of scrap metal bought at inflated prices.
I bought my Siglent SDS 1202X-E from their UK agent (Labtronix, if anyone's interested) a lttle over 3 months ago as a result of my attention being drawn to this thread by a usenet posting into SED. It was the startling revelation of the amazingly low prices for brand new modern T&M kit that prompted me to replace my very neglected "Boat Anchor" 'scope and sig generator with high performance replacements I could carry around one handed.
A week after getting hold of the 'scope, I realised I needed a signal generator to complement it so seriously contemplated Siglent's SDG1032X (just a fiver shy of the 365 quid I'd already shelled out on the 'scope). When I compared the specs, I realised I could get a poor man's version (the FY6600) which offered similar features (some better, others not quite so good) for just 21% of the SDG1032X's asking price, so re-read the whole of this thread... (twice!) before placing an order with a Chinese supplier who held stock in the UK and less than a week later, I had myself an AWG of my own. From then on it was downhill into the depths of DIY electronics improvement. :-\I have a number of signal generators and a couple of analogue function generators. I bought the FY6800 largely because I wanted a sweep generator for the visual alignment of the IF stages of valve comms receivers. I've never seen much in the way of sweep generators on the second hand market. I've come across various wobbulator projects, but they seem limited and a lot of trouble for not much. The analogue function generators won't cut it. I could just cut to the chase and buy a spectrum analyser with tracking generator, but it seems a lot to pay for the amount I'd use it. Apart from that the FY6800 is a nice, compact and versatile signal source. Function generators are things I've always regarded as handy, but rough and ready. The FY6800 by comparison with analogue function generators, is very accurate and very stable.
As you've noted with the supplied 'scope probes, they leave a little to be desired (certainly with regard to their BNC adapter tips) but aside from that niggling shortcoming, they (and the 'scope itself) appear to meet their specifications just fine. Of course, as I've pointed out several times here and elsewhere, all test kit has limitations, even the expensive kit costing ten to a hundred times more.The probes are justifiably described as 100MHz and they were thrown in with the scope. There are limits to what you can reasonably expect for a certain price. I don't know what Keysight, LeCroy and Co., throw in as probes. A pair of decent quality leads for an inverter welder will cost £40 and up. Cheap to moderately priced welders come with leads which are grudgingly up to the job. Expensive models often come with no leads, because "our customers are very discerning as to leads and electrode holders and prefer to source their own". Penny pinching IMHO.
With regard to the limited resolution of the voltmeter function, that's inherent to the 8 bit high speed ADCs used in these DSOs to capture the signal waveforms. With only 8 bits resolution, you're only going to see a maximum of 256 steps (twos complement signed integer - -128 to +127) in the Y axis of the 'scope's display. The ENOB setting using oversampling can extend the resolution by another 1 to 3 bits but that introduces a compromise which may or may not be acceptable depending on which aspects of the waveform you're trying to examine.Scopes don't make great voltmeters, despite what teachers said in A Level Physics years ago, but the feature on digital scopes is damned convenient and by playing with the offset as you describe, they can produce better resolution. For instance, I have a Li-ion battery that a meter says is at 3.98V. Casually checking with the scope gives between 3.92 and 4.00. Averaging gives 4.00. increasing V/Div and putting in an offset of 3.0V and the scope says 3.98V, but it's a bit of messing around. If you used an analogue scope to do the same, you'd probably say it's at 4V, rather than 3.8 or 4.2 and leave it at that, as a quick and dirty measurement. One feature I'd like to see on this scope is a coarse vertical shift control setting.
Luckily, for the purpose of displaying a waveform on the screen, this is generally ample resolution. Even luckier in the case of DSOs, if you need to see finer detail, you can alter the gain and dc offset so as to concentrate the view over a limited Y axis range of interest in the waveform. However, as I've already mentioned, this technique has its limits and is yet another compromise (one, however, which does extend the capability beyond that of the traditional CRT based scope).
Although my FY6600 has some DC offset, it's mercifully only a matter of a millivolt or so in the sub 500mV range (the range where that silly 85ohm pad is switched into the output circuit) and still low enough to be insignificant at the higher output ranges so I've never been tempted to tweak the trimmers (let sleeping dogs lie undisturbed lest they bite you in the bum). I may have a go at trimming out such residual offsets later on when I'm better tooled up to make sense of any such adjustments but, for now, they're not a problem and I don't see any benefit in taking the risk of making things worse. ;)
Being mindful of what I'd said in my previous post about the impedance of the generator being immaterial when driving a load matched to the impedance of the connecting transmission line (in this case, a 50 ohm dummy load hanging off the BNC T adapter plugged into the 'scope's Y channel input socket using the very short 50 ohm BNC patch lead supplied with the FY6600), I've just checked the frequency response of my FY6600 and see 74 and 75 percent of the amplitude (or, in this case, the Peak to Peak) at the 60MHz limit compared to the amplitude produced at 1MHz (the 100KHz amplitude was just a tiny fraction higher by way of a sanity check).
This is less than the 29% drop associated with the -3dB bandwidth point of 70.70707% voltage amplitude. Since this frequency is well within the 'scope's claimed 200MHz bandwidth, it would seem that my FY6600 example comfortably meets its own bandwidth specification. However, I'm just waiting for the half hour screen saver setting to time out before running the self calibration routine to repeat those tests (which event has occurred just now). I'm now waiting for the self calibration to complete and I can then repeat the bandwidth test...As far as I can tell after checking with an HP8640A sig gen, which has not been calibrated for many years, this scope exceeds the maker's bandwidth claim and I recall was pretty much flat up to about 60MHz. According to the scope the FY6800 is 1.7dB down at 60MHz and 1.1dB down at 40MHz. I find that remarkable for a unit at this price.
I've gotten pretty well the same figures on both channels of the generator and ditto for the 'scope channels, doing only one channel at a time. If anything, there seems to be a slight discrepancy with the 'scope's frequency response where it rises slightly below the 1MHz mark on the Y2 channel compared to the Y1 channel. Just a small fraction of a dB, nothing to get worked up about.
All in all, the FY6600 seems to be performing to its specification on sine wave bandwidth at least. Since the PSU, opamp and TCXO mods, it now exceeds its original DC offset/signal clipping limits and frequency stability capabilities (and the impedance mismatch below the 500mV setting isn't quite so shabby as it originally was - 45 ohm versus the original 85 ohm, whilst still not ideal, is a noticeable improvement just the same).
Since the FY6800 is essentially a revamped FY6600, I'd expect that to likewise exceed its sine wave output bandwidth claims, barring any out of the ordinary manufacturing defects (they have enough ordinary cost cutting induced deficiencies to begin with).
I've only addressed the matter of the frequency bandwidth aspect, ignoring the question of output voltage level calibration which seems to be within +/- 10% (according to my 'scope which, for the moment I'm assuming to be within its own +/-3% tolerance range - ICBA to knock up a simple peak voltage detector using a point contact diode to sanity check the voltage levels right now).
It's all too easy to obtain misleading results when checking out such kit when you overlook the transmission line effects of the connecting cables at radio frequencies and neglect the need to terminate the cables with a resistive impedance matching that of the cable (50 ohm dummy loads with 50 ohm BNC cables). It's also worth keeping in mind the limitations of your test and measuring equipment (DSOs don't, for example, make a very good substitute as a digital voltmeter).
If you're seeing unexpected results when checking out new kit, it's more than likely you have overlooked something vital like properly terminating a test cable. Take a pause from what you've been doing and consider the possibility that you've overlooked something in your test setup before concluding you have been 'sold a pup'. If that doesn't resolve the issue, you can always seek advice from any technical discussion group, whether it's EEVBlog or a usenet group just as Andreax1985 has done in this case. There's nothing wrong in seeking expert advice or a second opinion from your peers.
JBG
I see much the same. Try lengthening the earth lead from the probe with a jumper and you get some really strange results. The answer is that although it's easy to assume that ground is ground and all at the same potential, but conductors act as antennas and the longer they are, the more RFI and induced voltages they can pick up. If you are looking at the waveforms produced by a 555 oscillator at a few volts it doesn't matter, but if you are looking at low level signals, you have to pay attention to earthing and ground loops. There's a reason why they include the little spring earth connector with scope probes and there are Tektronix technical notes on probing.
As for using a DVM with unshielded leads connected to a BNC/croc clip cable, that's not really ideal for looking at voltages of around 1mV. We have to work with what we have and it seems to work fairly well, but if there are a few inconsistencies we shouldn't be surprised.
I've also noticed that it's as well to self-calibrate the scope regularly. Every time it recalibrates the no signal levels can be very slightly different. Don't forget that we are talking about measuring voltages towards the limits of what the scopes and normal, cheap DVMs can do.
What I have seen is that sometimes the FY6800 gives about a 13mV offset according to the DVM. The scope shows the same as a mean of about 13mV with a noisy waveform superimposed. The noisy waveform has spikes at around 65KHz. Powering off the FY6800 for a minute then powering it up clears it and it returns to having an offset of around 1mV. It reminds me of your original post about a 20mV offset and it looks like a definite flaw in the product. I wonder if it's been covered somewhere in this long thread.
I decided to float my scope (ok, I know it's not advisable, but considered the particular application I felt safe in doing so) in order to break possible ground loops. I can confirm that the residual dc offset was due to ground looping and now my readings are perfect. My device is working properly and I'm not going to return it.
What all of this shows is that they were chasing the bottom line against 'their' competitor in JDS instead of focusing on being best in class. What they failed to see is there is a huge gap to anything better they could have played in.Yeah. Conspiracies exist, and a few conspiracy theories have been proven true, but I think the cock up theory usually wins out over the conspiracy theory.
Better Power Supply
More accurate Time base
Better Op-amps and trimming in the factory
Upgradable Firmware
Maybe $20-30 retail needed to get it done right?
Compared to most likely hundreds of hours of 'fun', speculation and tinkering by us all. Still great bang for your $ :)
So today i put the THS3491 into the generator and put a new proper heatsink pad below the Heaspreader.
Now i can get 22 Vpp with 20 MHz sine.
But i get now an overshoot with square wave If i go above 500mV Independent of high impedance or 50 Ohm termination...
@ Johnny B Good,
The boat anchor thing started over 20 years ago when a work colleague had to have his mother move in with him and had to get rid of much of his junk. He knew I had an oscilloscope and liked to mess about, so I ended up buying an AR88, spare valves and manuals for £50. After that the temptation was too much and came all the British WWII stuff, Eddystone, Hammarlund, Racal. It was mostly about £50 a pop and then came the test equipment and chasing down spare valves at radio rallies.
The test equipment followed and was fun to fix and use - for the most part. I have a Schlumberger sweeper which I've had a long rest from, but it will not defeat me.
There's a vintage domestic radio scene which seems healthy and organised, but I find the radios boring. It and the amateur radio scene fit into a boat anchor radio scene. There's a vintage telly scene, which I can see the point of, but don't want to be involved in. There's a vintage radar scene, which apparently involves big bucks. There's a juke box scene, I can see the point of, but it's big bucks and you need a lot of room. Test equipment is generally regarded as functional and complicated, so it's easily junked when something better comes along, which it does. Look at these DSOs and the FY6800. So it goes quite cheap, which suits me.
Then of course, there's the vintage audio scene, which rapidly merges into audiophoolery and nonsense on stilts. I despise it.
I have a couple of Z80 boards and they remind me of a kinder, gentler time, although it didn't seem like that then. A nice one fixing that 'though.
Yes, the old high performance stuff had to use expensive precision construction. A good engineer can do for a shilling what any damned fool can do for ten quid, but these people were good engineers. Times have moved on and we've found better ways of doing things, but what they did is still magnificent. HP and Tek in particular, seemed to go a bit overboard when it came to doing things right, but their gear usually seems to stand the test of time best.
As for the desire to tinker and time standards. Some amateurs have spent a lot of time and money on this. I'd like an off-air standard good for 0.1ppm at least. Don't R4LW receivers need a 198KHz crystal, which can probably be custom made for surprisingly little (£40???) and then you may as well use a published design and buy the circuit boards. A ton at least? I think I'll look into the GPSDO option.
As for where it will all end, I can't see it matters as long as you enjoy it and it doesn't impact others in your life; kids going barefoot to school because daddy has blown the loot on a caesium beam standard.
An energy policy constructed without a power generation engineer in sight is worrying. Also, energy policy is long term and so can't very well accommodate the fads of the hour. Most shops these days couldn't open without electricity. Your comments on this have made me reconsider things. In January, with a blocking high for a couple of weeks, things could get miserable. I suppose the least I'd need is 240V AC to produce a maximum 50W to keep the central heating system going for a few hours. It could come from an inverter and the car battery. The Lidl generator is well worth a thought.
The stale fuel and generator idea came from a friend whose daughter ran a chicken farm. It had an emergency generator which was petrol fired, but when the power went off, always in the winter, daddy was called out to fix it, and the problem was stale fuel.
As for the house moving business, I've gone through the same process and have decided to go home, where property is cheaper, I can be with the folks I dig and can catch up on some fishing and shooting. It's a lot of work and a big decision, but the older you get the harder it gets.
It's been a pleasure to correspond with such a thoughtful person.
For anyone else following this long and possibly completely irrelevant post I'll bring it back to the FY6800.
IMHO it's a remarkable product for the money. It's a shame Feeltech haven't chased up some of the observations and improvements made and maybe incorporated them in a deluxe version or options at extra cost, then they could have had a killer product.
I'd recommend it without hesitation for anyone wanting a function generator and judging it by the standards of function generators. Features such as the burst function and arbitrary functions I can see being useful in sorting out knotty problems. It wouldn't cut the mustard compared to a halfway reasonable RF or decent low distortion AF sig gen. If you are interested in low level signals it's questionable.
Generally well worth the money.
Treat it as a 'reasonable' Signal Generator and don't waste to much time and money on trying to make Champagne from Pig Swill.
QuoteTreat it as a 'reasonable' Signal Generator and don't waste to much time and money on trying to make Champagne from Pig Swill.
Yeah of course I'm conscient of what I'm buying. I don't want to waste time and that's why I'm asking here. I think changing opamps for a few bucks is worth the time and money. The improvement looked in pictures I think is great.
So... going for a 6800 and only change opamps? What about firmware upgrade and open bandwith?
Thanks again!
Absolutely fantastic post!
With regard to the frequency response of the factory units, my FY6600 will produce a clean 10 nS pulse at a 10 MHz repetition rate. I've not looked at it on my LeCroy DDA-125yet, just an Owon XDS2102A I bought for the sake of the 12 bit 500 MSa/S ADC and 20 Mpt buffer depth. The Owon showed a bit of ringing after the impulse, but until I do some more testing I don't know which is responsible, the DSO or the AWG. The Owon does not have a 50 ohm input, so the thru terminator may be a factor.
I've got a Tek 11801 supposed to arrive Friday. I received a pair of 12.5 GHz, 23 pS rise time SD-22 sampling heads today. So with a bit of luck and hard work I might have some good data on the F***Tech next week. Then I have to contend with how to test things like the SD-22, or worse yet, an SD-32 with a 7 pS rise time. I started a thread in Metrology on generating <3 pS rise time steps. I swore I'd stop at 3 GHz, but TEA got me anyway.
JBG
As a practical test instrument one of Leo's 40 ps square wave units is the way to go unless you insist on building it yourself. Leo is using a Maxim 3949 LED driver with 22-36 ps Tr and Tf. There is a moral hazard in buying one though. After you look at the plot of your unit made with Leo's CAS803 using and SD-30 head you may want one for yourself.
Interestingly, my quest for a really fast edge has brought me full circle to the problem of reverberation due to a source embedded in a layer with a perfect reflector at one boundary. Which also turns out to be the same problem as constructing an ultra wide band antenna using an unbalanced feedline.
I'm using the F***Tech FY6600 V 3.1 "Adj Pulse". The settings for the attached figures are:
10 MHz frequency
2 V amplitude
10 ns pulse
I've not observed any repetition rate issue other than the BW limitation of the output. I was able to raise the repetition rate to 60 MHz. I think it worth noting that CH1 stopped producing output when set to "Adj Pulse". I then tried CH2, but it does not have "Adj Pulse". However, when I went back to CH1 and changed the waveform settings the 10 ns pulse returned.
I tried the "Impulse" and it is very poor relative to the Adj Pulse.
I'm using an Instek MSO2204EA with a 50 ohm thru termination taking the outputs with a 2 ft piece of RG-58.
DS0004 & DS0006 are the FY6600 going as fast as it will go. DS0005 is a Keysight 33622A going as fast as it will go.
DS0004 is with the amplitude at 2 V and DS0006 is with it set to 0.5 V.
DS0007 is my 100 ps pulser from Leo. Leo-spike is the CSA803 & SD-30 (9 ps Tr, 40 GHz BW) results.
The Keysight is clearly *very* good, but at a list of 60x the F***Tech. The apparent ringing on Leo's impulse generator is the result of Instek using a zero phase sinc(t) interpolator instead of the correct minimum phase interpolator. Setting dot mode turns off the interpolation and with infinite persistence you get the result shown in DS0008.
BY digitizing the plots Leo provided and DS0008 one could derive the transfer function of the Instek AFE.
I think it worth noting that for testing scopes, Leo's square wave unit is a better choice. I have both. The impulse unit is much more convenient for TDR work.
Have Fun!
Reg
Thank you Johnny B good for the picture.
Where did you put the minus of the TCXO power supply TCXO (it's seems to go the the earth) and why there resistor (and value)?
Have you made any changes on the power supply (except the ferrite)?
Hi Gege34,
I used the co-ax braid for the ground return (-ve) to avoid ground loops. The white wire is the 5v feed picked up from the +5v pin on one of that group of regulator chips. The resistors you can see are a bunch of three 33K resistors in parallel using the -ve screw terminal on the module as a convenient connection point with the other end of the resistors wired to the safety earth pin on the mains socket (it knocks the 90v leakage right down to just under half a volt and neatly avoids mains earth loop issues.
As far as the smpsu board goes, I've lost count of the number of times I've had it out on the bench for the various modifications I've tried on it. However, the first mod was to wire a 47K across the lower half of the voltage feedback potentiometer formed by the two 10K resistors between the +5v and the 0v rail to boost the 5v to 5.5v in order to raise the 11.5 volts on the "12 volt" rails to somewhere around the 12.7v mark. This wasn't quite enough, even after replacing the weedy rectifier diodes with 20A dual shotky rectifier diodes so I ended up modifying the transformer to add an two extra turns on each end of the 24v centre tapped winding feeding the 12v rails. This raised the voltage to somewhere in the region of 13.7v or so.
In hindsight, I should have just upgraded all three rectifiers and then added a single turn overwinding to the transformer to buck the 5v winding, forcing the switching IC to compensate and so neatly increase the 12v rails without altering the 5v rail voltage and avoid modifying the transformer since there is ample room to thread (three or four lots in parallel of) the single turn of wire around the existing windings without having to remove the transformer from the PCB as I'd had to in order to to access the ends of the 12v windings in order to unsolder them from their solder tags so as to extend each winding another two turns each.
Connecting this one turn buck winding is just a matter of lifting the anode end of the 5v diode from the board and connecting the ends in series with the diode's anode and the vacated hole on the PCB. If you connect it series aiding on your first attempt (a matter of dumb luck), all that will happen is that the 12v lines will drop in voltage, leaving the 5v untouched which simply means you need to flip the one turn winding connections round to buck the 5v, forcing the 12v rails to increase in voltage.
[EDIT 2019-03-31]
I finally got round to undoing the original transformer mod yesterday afternoon to try out the single turn winding to buck the 5v secondary's output voltage as per the above. Not surprisingly, I had to reverse the connections to make it buck the 5v secondary.
It worked just as I'd hoped it would. However, when it was connected 'aiding' the 5v didn't get above 3.96v (I suspect maybe due to too large a smoothing cap on the 5v rail) leaving the 12v rails registering just over 8 volts each. Undismayed, I reversed the connections and tried again. getting +4.94v (I'd removed the 47K voltage boosting resistor), -12.98v and +12.83v. I wired in a 200K voltage boost resistor which then gave me +5.07, -13.29 and +13.13 volts which seemed to be close enough to the optimum. I didn't want to go much above the 5v mark in order to reduce the dissipation in those three very hot running LDOs on the main board and the 3.3v LDO on the 50MHz 100ppb TCXO oscillator board itself.
[END_EDIT]
====snip====
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76.115.100.230/6bedf6a
2019-04-10 00:26:25
I notice that www.feeltech.net (http://www.feeltech.net) has for the past few days at least provided the less than useful response:Seems to work for me right now. At least it shows something I'd expect, instead of 502.Code: [Select]HTTP Error 502
Bad gateway
76.115.100.230/6bedf6a
2019-04-10 00:26:25
..I used a program called 'visual analyser' ,which does Scope FFT and spectrum , thd+noise etc.Thanks! Interesting software. http://www.sillanumsoft.org/news.htm (http://www.sillanumsoft.org/news.htm)
There were 3 signal sources, The 6600, the 33622A and Leo's 100 ps impulse. The DSO sinc(f) issue is *only* visible on the 100 ps signal when the DSO is sampling at 1/10th of the pulse duration.
I have one of Leo's two channel GPSDOs which has been extremely satisfactory. The single channel version is cheaper.
I bought a 6 output 10 MHz GPSDO from Roadrunner, but have not yet gotten around to testing it.
OK, this tops it all!!!
I just got the May/June 2019 issue of QEX. On the front page is an FY6600 which was converted into a WSPR transmitter by the author. The article references this thread, so hopefully he'll see this and share some details of the project for readers who don't have access to QEX.
He did the TXCO, output amp and mains cord modifications.
After what I'd read about the BG7TBL units and the fact that they seem to be based on an FLL rather than a PLL (accounting for the almost insignificant 0.15Hz frequency error in these units), I decided to take a fresh look at alternative "cost effective" GPSDOs and landed up on Leo's web site, scrutinising his GPSDO offerings which looked rather nice for the money.
After what I'd read about the BG7TBL units and the fact that they seem to be based on an FLL rather than a PLL (accounting for the almost insignificant 0.15Hz frequency error in these units), I decided to take a fresh look at alternative "cost effective" GPSDOs and landed up on Leo's web site, scrutinising his GPSDO offerings which looked rather nice for the money.
If you're looking for cost effective GPSDO take a look at this
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/my-u-blox-lea-6t-based-gpsdo-(very-scruffy-initial-breadboard-stage)/msg929949/#lastPost (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/my-u-blox-lea-6t-based-gpsdo-(very-scruffy-initial-breadboard-stage)/msg929949/#lastPost)
I tested it on a breadboard and it works really well.
Hi
What is the state of the bluepill sofware for Fy6600?
I was thinking to make a version for a STM32 discovery board.
Any chance to get hold of the source code?
Thanks
Wonder what the DIL socket on the back is?
Thanks tried to get manual but it’s not uploaded yetThis link:
.... But where is the software ?When the item will be available, I assume.
You are assuming the big fat Earth pin is connected inside the box :-DD :horse:
Seems to be new, slightly updated version (new case with back cooler):
AFAIK, they're still only pre-booking orders.You are assuming the big fat Earth pin is connected inside the box :-DD :horse:Has anyone managed to get hold of an FY6900 to check this out yet?
Hello, new here to this forum. I had just purchased an FY6800-60M and ended up returning it. The DC offset was over 35mV when set to 0. There was a lot of jitter in frequencies above 20 MHz or so. Amplitudes were way off into a 50 ohm load; there was considerable distortion in the output into a 10 k load. Square waves started to look more and more like sine waves as frequencies got past 15 MHz. Etc. Etc. Etc. I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, so I don't know if any of these problems have been experienced by others, but I am curious to know what others have found in actual use, i.e. tied to a real circuit and not just an o'scope. Any input will be appreciated.
Thanks tried to get manual but it’s not uploaded yetThis link:
http://myosuploads3.banggood.com/products/20190606/20190606070659FY6900SeriesUsersManualV1.0.doc (http://myosuploads3.banggood.com/products/20190606/20190606070659FY6900SeriesUsersManualV1.0.doc)
worked perfectly for me, yesterday & today.
It's a MS Word docu, titled:
FY6900 Series Fully Numerical Control
Dual Channel Function/Arbitrary Waveform Generator
User’s Manual
Rev1.0 May,2019
AFAIK, they're still only pre-booking orders.You are assuming the big fat Earth pin is connected inside the box :-DD :horse:Has anyone managed to get hold of an FY6900 to check this out yet?
Hello, new here to this forum. I had just purchased an FY6800-60M and ended up returning it. The DC offset was over 35mV when set to 0. There was a lot of jitter in frequencies above 20 MHz or so. Amplitudes were way off into a 50 ohm load; there was considerable distortion in the output into a 10 k load. Square waves started to look more and more like sine waves as frequencies got past 15 MHz. Etc. Etc. Etc. I haven't read all the posts in this thread yet, so I don't know if any of these problems have been experienced by others, but I am curious to know what others have found in actual use, i.e. tied to a real circuit and not just an o'scope. Any input will be appreciated.
Thank you for finding that; a very interesting read. With all the free engineering that has been done here for FeelTech, maybe the YF6900 will not have these same issues! :-//
The only differences I see are the increased max Vp-p of 24V and the elimination of the 100uV step in the amplitude setting. I guess we'll wait for a teardown to see what they've done for the power supply this time--but I'm not expecting much! Meanwhile, the prices of the FY6600-60MHz have hit $40 on eBay, so if you like the idea of multiple synced units, now is the time to pick some up.
Anyhow, regarding your mention of those forty dollar FY6600s on Ebay, I was intrigued enough to investigate what was on offer for myself. I did check out the prices on the FY6800s btw, before placing an order just half an hour ago on a FY6600-60M from Hong Kong for a mere £40.41p (just over half of the £75.66p I'd paid for my now much modded unit some seven months ago).
I didn't fancy paying a 30 quid premium just to get a slightly nicer revamped front panel and a big butch switched C14 socket on what is essentially still an FY6600 inside. Besides which, it's a case of "Better the Devil you know." and it makes for a very cheap "Spare". The only concern with these "last available FY6600s" being whether they're unsold stock of all those models which had been afflicted by the version 3.0 firmware bug. :-\ Hopefully not but I should be able to determine that in some two to three week's time. ;)
JBG
I used it to align some AM radios but now I wanted to align the 10.7MHz IF sections.
So I recently purchased an FY6800. After verifying it worked I ordered an assortment of upgrade parts. I installed a linear 15vdc supply, installed new op amps and replaced the encoder so I could have a larger knob. Next was to figure out how to get a repeatable setup for FM IF sweeps and contribute to the thread.
====snip====
So I recently purchased an FY6800. After verifying it worked I ordered an assortment of upgrade parts. I installed a linear 15vdc supply, installed new op amps and replaced the encoder so I could have a larger knob. Next was to figure out how to get a repeatable setup for FM IF sweeps and contribute to the thread.
I'm testing and hear a high pitched squeal. The LM337T failed and blew out one of the new op amps. I reinstalled the original op amp . Currently running off a bench supply with the board sitting an a cardboard box.
It appears to work like new. So I'm back to playing with the sweep. For now, it's not raining so outside I go.
It's been a pleasure to read all of this thread. KC8AAC
Hi,
If the 6600 to 6900 are not good. Do you have any suggestions???
Thanks
Personally, I didn't think that the 6800 that I had purchased wasn't worth much past 20-to-25 MHz (As mentioned above, I ended up returning it.). I found a descent BK Precision 4045B (20 MHz unit) on ebay for a few dollars more than the 6800. It doesn't have all features claimed by the 6800, but what it does have works! I must admit that I am a little bit funny about my test equipment; if something doesn't perform to the mfg's spec, I lose confidence in the whole instrument. It's OK to make a hobby project out of an instrument, but .....
I had an HP34401A multimeter that I paid $1100.00 for about 18 years ago. While working on a project, I found that it couldn't measure the DC offset of a sine wave. My cheapo hand-held meters could make the measurement, but this fancy piece of gear couldn't! The people at HP (now Keysight) said it was a "quirk" that I ran into, and I should just trade it in on something newer. Lost all trust in the meter...Up for sale!
I saw the 4045Bs on eBay, that is a lot off the new price for a 'current' unit. But how does the square wave actually look?? They list a 20ns rise time, which is more than 3x worse than the FY6600.
My Rigol DS1102D shows the rise and fall times to be about 13 ns; Square wave looks good to about 15MHz and gets very "siney" after that, though rise and fall times remain around 13 ns out to 20 MHz. The 6800 square wave got looking like a sine wave around 15 MHz, as well. Everything I've checked on the 4045B, so far, is dead on. Good price from one seller on ebay ($124.95 shipped) and the unit I received looks new.
I haven't been inside it yet to see what is going on, but I don't see any jitter on through 20 MHZ, unlike the 6800, and the jitter I saw on the 6800 got really bad at the higher frequencies. I may have gotten a poor unit, but it did have the 1.7.1 firmware.
Anyhow, regarding your mention of those forty dollar FY6600s on Ebay, I was intrigued enough to investigate what was on offer for myself. I did check out the prices on the FY6800s btw, before placing an order just half an hour ago on a FY6600-60M from Hong Kong for a mere £40.41p (just over half of the £75.66p I'd paid for my now much modded unit some seven months ago).
I didn't fancy paying a 30 quid premium just to get a slightly nicer revamped front panel and a big butch switched C14 socket on what is essentially still an FY6600 inside. Besides which, it's a case of "Better the Devil you know." and it makes for a very cheap "Spare". The only concern with these "last available FY6600s" being whether they're unsold stock of all those models which had been afflicted by the version 3.0 firmware bug. :-\ Hopefully not but I should be able to determine that in some two to three week's time. ;)
JBG
I agree that it looks like the original FY6600 with the latest firmware is the best option at this point--unless a teardown of the FY6900 reveals a new level of excellence. I actually ordered two with the cheapest-option AU plug since I plan on converting them to US/C5-C6 and adding a 10K resistor to the existing Y-cap and running it to ground. Then I'll see how it works and if my EMI and noise is acceptable. I have a use case for two--or three--using either the sync feature or using one to control the other thru the VCO port. I paid a total of US$84.86 for two, shipped, so I can't imagine a better deal. I can live with the output limitations--20Vp-p at 20MHz (let alone 60) is pretty hard to do with an inexpensive op amp. And this thing has two channels! I'd like to see a comparison with more expensive DDS AWG models--I've seen some at over 10X the price that don't seem to do as well as the lowly (and now dirt cheap) FY6600. If I need more power I'll get or make an amplifier.
I don't have one of these devices, but what does the scope show you with the unit powered off entirely? Is it the same, or does some/all of the measurement clean itself up? Just curious to know if it's actually coming from the unit, or if it's radiated from somewhere else.It's coming from the unit: I've attached an image of the same setup but with the FY6800 switched off at the mains.
You might try enabling the 20MHz bandwidth limit on the scope to knock some of the noise down if those spurs are giving you trouble with triggering.Yes, I've tried that but it doesn't really clean things up enough. I'm not sure if this is just something that I have to live with. It's a bit of pity if so, as the device itself can generate sub 10 mV signals, but they're swamped in the SMPS noise.
I don't have one of these devices, but what does the scope show you with the unit powered off entirely? Is it the same, or does some/all of the measurement clean itself up? Just curious to know if it's actually coming from the unit, or if it's radiated from somewhere else.It's coming from the unit: I've attached an image of the same setup but with the FY6800 switched off at the mains.QuoteYou might try enabling the 20MHz bandwidth limit on the scope to knock some of the noise down if those spurs are giving you trouble with triggering.Yes, I've tried that but it doesn't really clean things up enough. I'm not sure if this is just something that I have to live with. It's a bit of pity if so, as the device itself can generate sub 10 mV signals, but they're swamped in the SMPS noise.
I've attached an image of the signal that I get from my FY6800, channel 1, with the unit on, but with channel 1 disabled. There's noise at about 44 kHz of about 40 mV pp, which I'm guessing is from the SMPS.
My question is: is noise of this magnitude expected from this unit?
Just how are you getting the signal from the Feeltech into your Rigol? It matters!I'm not sure how that is relevant to my problem, though.
I tried with my unit and the freerunning waveform shows some peaks of around 30mV. That goes down to around 14mV with 20MHz BW limit.
If I trigger on the spikes, and zoom into the periodic "noise", I'm getting a 10mV, 6-7Khz nonsense.Not sure what you mean here - what's the "nonsense"?
unless I can figure out how to replace the power supply.
Fairly simple you are blaming the source without considering the measurement tool and the cable leading up to it as the potential problem. Incorrectly terminated transmission lines (not impedance matched) not to mention breadboards SUCK and are as noisy as ......Well, it's always worth considering alternative explanations but if this were a transmission line problem, would it not be strongly frequency dependent? I see precisely the same noise signature from DC up to 1 MHz. In addition, as I mentioned earlier, it's present directly at the BNC output of the device so the presence of the cable or breadboard is irrelevant.
Here is experience of one user to replace power supply with linear one. It helps a lot to remove such noise.
It is in russian, but I'm sure you will understand all from pictures.
You simply FAIL to comprehend your past. About the only way forward to start to remedy this is release the firmware for the FY6600 and the method to repair damaged units. Either that or consider sending 'review samples of your new one to those affected that have dead units. Return shipping and freighting units is just not on unless YOU are paying for postage both ways.
Both of the member quotes above were from your most recent spruiking of the 6800. And surprise surprise went unanswered.
This Link https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/feeltech-fy6800-signal-generator-free-trial/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/contests/feeltech-fy6800-signal-generator-free-trial/)
We have no staff to take charge of this forum account before. We have not landed in this forum for a long time. We apologize for the vacancy in our work. At the same time, we will compensate the damaged customers. From now on, our account is in the charge of a special person, we will maintain the forum. Customers who have purchased version FY6600 V3.0 before will send the firmware chip downloaded version V3.1 free of charge as long as they contact us. At the same time, if these customers intend to purchase FY6900 series products, our company will return all the profits of the machine to customers, charging only the cost of equipment and transportation costs. Please contact us in EVVblog or Email.
Email address: service@feelelec.com
Interesting development. Of course, the proof in the pudding is in the eating. So, it's time for all the V3 owners to put FE to the test.
Has anyone gotten the firmware update to work with PC Software version 6.0?
My FY6600 has firmware 3.1, PC Software says that the latest available firmware is 3.3, but when I click "update" it seems to download something but then it immediately throws the error "USB linkage fault".
Has anyone gotten the firmware update to work with PC Software version 6.0?
My FY6600 has firmware 3.1, PC Software says that the latest available firmware is 3.3, but when I click "update" it seems to download something but then it immediately throws the error "USB linkage fault".
Dear Customers,
3.3 began to add online upgrade function, 3.1 does not support online upgrade.
If you have any problems with version 3.1, please feel free to contact us.
FeelElec
Interesting development. Of course, the proof in the pudding is in the eating. So, it's time for all the V3 owners to put FE to the test.
I dropped Fremen67 a PM. Offhand I can't recall others with dead or partially dead units but if others do hit them up.
Oh. That's quite unfortunate.
Thanks for the answer, though.
Do you have a changelog of what was updated, changed, or fixed in version 3.3 so I can see what I'm missing?
I need some help with my FY6800 power supply upgrade. |O I did most of the upgrades shown in this schematic https://github.com/DerKammi/FY6600-15-30-50-60M/blob/master/Hardware/FY6600%20PS%20schematic%20V1.pdf (https://github.com/DerKammi/FY6600-15-30-50-60M/blob/master/Hardware/FY6600%20PS%20schematic%20V1.pdf). The only difference is I did not change D9 and instead of changing R6 I replaced the two 10K voltage divider with a 20K Multiturn Trim Pot wire the same as a voltage divider so I can adjust the output voltage. Also instead of using a 68uF 400V for C2 I used a 33uf 400V. Now the FY6800 intermittently turns on by having to turn it on and then off several times using the switch in the back. When it does turn on it works fine, with the power supply voltage at -13.6V, +13.5V, and +5.0V. and the on/off button in the front work fine as long as I do not turn it off with the back switch. Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
I need some help with my FY6800 power supply upgrade. |O I did most of the upgrades shown in this schematic https://github.com/DerKammi/FY6600-15-30-50-60M/blob/master/Hardware/FY6600%20PS%20schematic%20V1.pdf (https://github.com/DerKammi/FY6600-15-30-50-60M/blob/master/Hardware/FY6600%20PS%20schematic%20V1.pdf). The only difference is I did not change D9 and instead of changing R6 I replaced the two 10K voltage divider with a 20K Multiturn Trim Pot wire the same as a voltage divider so I can adjust the output voltage. Also instead of using a 68uF 400V for C2 I used a 33uf 400V. Now the FY6800 intermittently turns on by having to turn it on and then off several times using the switch in the back. When it does turn on it works fine, with the power supply voltage at -13.6V, +13.5V, and +5.0V. and the on/off button in the front work fine as long as I do not turn it off with the back switch. Any help will be appreciated.
Thanks,
Mike
I don't think that power supply is worth upgrating , just replaced with a linear one .
Anyway you should measure your pot resistance and see if it works ok with the old value 10k , in a such SMPS you can't change the voltage by much or could become unstable . Even if it's 12K as the autor say it works , because of various tolerances is not certain that in every case will work
I don't think that power supply is worth upgrating , just replaced with a linear one .
Anyway you should measure your pot resistance and see if it works ok with the old value 10k , in a such SMPS you can't change the voltage by much or could become unstable . Even if it's 12K as the autor say it works , because of various tolerances is not certain that in every case will work
The analogue psu can be an effective solution but the downside is that you'll introduce greater thermal stress than the original (typically 70 to 80% efficient) smpsu board on the unit if you neglect to add a cooling fan to prevent an already hot running generator from overheating. Preferably a fan that offers a further reduction in temperature to extend the life of the components, most notably that of the 105deg C rated caps.
Indeed, a few of the homebrewed analogue PSU projects have suffered regulator failures for lack of heatsinking, in some cases to the detriment of component failure on the main board (a brand new THS3091 burning out forcing the owner to revert back to the original THS3002i chip for lack of a spare 3091 being one notable event).
If you're going to build a custom analogue psu, you need to be very mindful of this thermal issue. A fan is a must have item, even before you add the additional heat from an analogue psu, imho. IOW, make adding a cooling fan you first priority before doing anything else (after allowing a period of grace to allow any faults to show up before voiding the Chinese warranty, of course :-DD).
JBG
JBG,
Thanks for your advice, I will be adding a cooling fan. Once I finish the PS upgrade I will be upgrading to a D75J and THS3091.
Thanks,
Mike
The analogue psu can be an effective solution but the downside is that you'll introduce greater thermal stress than the original (typically 70 to 80% efficient) smpsu board on the unit if you neglect to add a cooling fan to prevent an already hot running generator from overheating.
If you're going to build a custom analogue psu, you need to be very mindful of this thermal issue.
As for both yours and DaveR's view that there's no need to fit a cooling fan if either a more efficient smpsu is fitted or else an R type transformer is used for an analogue PSU replacement, I feel I must point out that you're overlooking the fact that both the FY6600 and Fy6800 models were already running uncomfortably hot before any additional heat sources were introduced into the box.
The 25W rated smpsu might be cooler running from its point of view but the fact remains that its efficiency at a relatively low loading may be no better than the crappy original and quite likely adding a little more heat into the box. R type transformers in an analogue PSU aren't the problem, it's the waste heat from the analogue regulators that poses the real threat. R transformers are a good way to go but I'm not so sure about the analogue aspect unless it's being used to eliminate the high frequency ripple of a switching psu with consideration to the penalty of additional waste heat this introduces.
Hello ! Comrades :) - but there is a photo of the insides of the generator model 6900
it’s mostly interesting to see the main board of the generator - and in particular its output part
Thanks friends
The JYEC DIP oscillator on that oscillator power board boasts a stability of +/- 0.1ppm over a a 0 to 25 deg C range and +/-0.2ppm over the -10 to +50 or 60 deg C range and, of necessity for this sort of accuracy and stability, boasts a trimmer to allow calibration against a reference frequency source such as a GPSDO.
I've attached a photo of the oscillator board - it's now going spare, perhaps I can flog it as a CD player upgrade to some audiophool ;)
FYI I just sent service@feelelec.com an email asking that they replace the front panels for the 4 people I was able to identify who are forum members with borked V 3.0 units. I was able to furnish shipping information for 3 of them. I never heard from @canyon.
I received the microcontroller with firmware V3.31 from Feeltech , as they said that will send for free if you ask . Thx .
I will change the IC these days .
(https://i.ibb.co/DR1GMny/Microcontroller-v3-31.jpg) (https://ibb.co/DR1GMny)
The jitter problem wasn't checked ... in the video 5MHz for the square wave is a frequency where the jitter is not present .
Same crappy power supply .
Same interface .
24Vpp = exactly 2x12V power supply rails ;D ,
As for both yours and DaveR's view that there's no need to fit a cooling fan if either a more efficient smpsu is fitted or else an R type transformer is used for an analogue PSU replacement, I feel I must point out that you're overlooking the fact that both the FY6600 and Fy6800 models were already running uncomfortably hot before any additional heat sources were introduced into the box.
The 25W rated smpsu might be cooler running from its point of view but the fact remains that its efficiency at a relatively low loading may be no better than the crappy original and quite likely adding a little more heat into the box. R type transformers in an analogue PSU aren't the problem, it's the waste heat from the analogue regulators that poses the real threat. R transformers are a good way to go but I'm not so sure about the analogue aspect unless it's being used to eliminate the high frequency ripple of a switching psu with consideration to the penalty of additional waste heat this introduces.
I have to admit being rather puzzled by your statements about "running uncomfortably hot" initially, Johnny, as neither my 6600 nor my 6800 has ever run anywhere near a temperature I'd describe as hot. "Moderately warm" is how I'd describe it, but perhaps it's a subjective assessment? The biggest source of heat, by far, after I did the PS mods in the 6600 was from the 7805 regulator, which got to around 75C and created a local hot spot on the top of the case, but I cured this by swapping it for an OKI 78SR regulator, which runs as cool as the rest of the PS. Any heat inside the case now comes from the Cyclone chip and the 3095 op amps, but even then I need to run them very hard for a couple of hours (something I've only done once, as a test) to get them to an elevated temperature. (In real world usage I rarely use more than about 1Vp-p output, so everything stays very much cooler.) In the same test the D75J TCXO had no problem in coping, with only a 0.1Hz drift at 10MHz after the first 10 minutes of warm up, and no drift after the next 15 minutes - pretty much in line with what you'd expect from an OCXO, depending on the level of sub-Hz accuracy you want.
I still haven't bothered to modify the 6800's PS or op amps even though I've had all the parts to do it since I bought the generator about a year ago - the D75J is the only change I've made, as the awful drift caused by the original XO just had to go. The distortion produced by the original op amps is minimal at the levels I use, so I can live with them, and they run cooler than the the 3095 upgrades so heat produced in the case is even less than that in the 6600. Looking back, the 6600 mods were done more for the challenge than out of necessity, but the 6800 works well enough as it now stands, so I'll probably wait until they do become a necessity before I do anything else to it.
Finally, it's nice to see you back Arthur, and thanks for the update on your mods!
Regards,
Dave
One can see steps of 7.5 mV every 120 nsec, as expected for a 8192 points sine wave. So the vertical resolution ends up being 2666 levels or about 11-12 bits.
Here is a picture of a zoom-in on a 1 kHz 20Vpp sine wave. The scope scale is 10 mV/100nsec per division.FY6800 on a sine wave is about the same result 12bit
That's very interesting. It looks like FY6800 uses 12 bit NCO to generate sine wave.
Can you check it on different sine wave frequencies (with different rise time), for example 100 Hz and 100 kHz?
So the real resolution for sine wave is just 12 bit :)The Chinese are cunning, it’s good that they didn’t slip 10 bits. :horse:
The steps are indeed about 2.4 mV=20V/8192. So the DAC is not at fault.
It's a good idea to test an up-ramp. For 8192 horizontal points one gets 8192 vertical points. So the vertical resolution should be 13 bits in this case.Yes, I was mistaken when I switched the waveform to ramp, the amplitude became 10V instead of 20V. Thus, it is not 14, but 13 bits, which are limited by the amount of memory.
No, there is no 50 Ohm terminator and it is not needed. It would simply attenuate both the signal and the steps by a factor of 2. The scope is calibrated for Hi Z load, so 20V pp is indeed 20 Vpp without terminator.
With Hi-Z your oscilloscope will show you random amplitude, you cannot believe it.Do not invent, everything is correct, it shows without a terminator.
With Hi-Z your oscilloscope Do not invent, everything is correct, it shows without a terminator.
No. With no terminator, there is 1M +15pF impedance on the cable end.I can set a time step longer if I use a low frequency and it will not change anything.
Since we-re talking about 100 ns steps, you're needs to use 10 MHz frequency.
since there is no proper impedance match, this is measurement at the output of transformer with random transformation ratio and random frequency response. It's transformation ratio will depends on many factors, include cable length and frequency.The level of quantization will not change.
Can show you the vertical step of a linearly increasing signal with a frequency of 1 Hz? |O
I suggest to avoid 50-60 Hz and 0...100 Hz range, because some oscilloscopes have amplitude distortion at such frequency.I have a Rigol and it works correctly, and not like your Siglent. :-DD
I have a Rigol and it works correctly, and not like your Siglent. :-DD
may be Rigol has another issue... :DOf course there is nothing perfect.
I added some pictures on how to connect signal generator to measure amplitude properly.For whom?
For whom?
For whom?
you already know that. But many peoples trying to use direct connection of signal generator to the oscilloscope with no impedance match and have measurement issues because of that. And they don't know how to connect signal generator for proper amplitude measurements So I think it will be useful information for these peoples :)
Even people who knows that, often forgot it and make measurement mistake :)
scope input with 50ohm or whatever lowish ohm value will eliminate
Thanks. Try the same for a sine with f=10 MHz, the difference will be smaller. Also would be interesting to look at square pulses. There will be some ringing on the transitions, but the flat regions will not be affected.
Also, as you can see, even with 50 Ohm input there is some small impedance mismatch.This is not related to the number and level of steps. The level of quantization remains the same, and if it can be seen, this is enough.
This is not related to the number and level of steps. The level of quantization remains the same, and if it can be seen, this is enough.
DAC works at 250 MHz, so there is about 1-2 ns rise time transition between two levels. Are you sure that you can measure voltage difference on this transition with no proper termination at the end of cable?In order to see, a low frequency is selected, for example 1 kHz or even lower.
Since your cable doesn't have proper termination, short intervals may be overlapped with ringing in the cable and you will not be able to recognize short steps.The steps will be long.
So, FY6600 has 12 bit sine wave?Yes.
All of this transmission-line considerations of cable impedance and load impedance matching apply only if the cable is long enough to be a transmission line, which means its length is comparable to the wavelength of the wave. With light speed on the order of 1 ft/nsec one doesn't need to worry about impedance matching for a 3-ft cable and 100 nsec pulses.
rhb, in all your work in the oil business, have you ever worked out solutions to Maxwell's equations in a cylindrical waveguide with a center conductor?
I suggest you find a good primer on the use of oscilloscopes and read it. In particular the section on input impedance and bandwidth.Good for you. But people who have PhD like to understand things at a deeper level than an instruction manual.
I suggest you find a good primer on the use of oscilloscopes and read it. In particular the section on input impedance and bandwidth.Good for you. But people who have PhD like to understand things at a deeper level than an instruction manual.
I suggest you find a good primer on the use of oscilloscopes and read it. In particular the section on input impedance and bandwidth.Good for you. But people who have PhD like to understand things at a deeper level than an instruction manual.
All of this transmission-line considerations of cable impedance and load impedance matching apply only if the cable is long enough to be a transmission line, which means its length is comparable to the wavelength of the wave. With light speed on the order of 1 ft/nsec one doesn't need to worry about impedance matching for a 3-ft cable and 100 nsec pulses.It has already been shown by radiolistener that changing impedance matching only affects the ringing on pulse transitions (which necessarily have much higher frequencies or shorter wavelengths), it does not affect the DC value of 100 nsec -long steps (apart from trivial factor of 2 attenuation). So if one only cares about those 100 nsec flat steps, there is no need for termination.
I couldn't resist.
No one argues that a transmission line needs termination. The question is what constitutes a transmission line. The general rule is that the length of the line needs to be comparable to the wavelength of the signal transmitted. That is why impedance matching only becomes an issue at higher frequencies (shorter wavelength).
It has already been shown by radiolistener that changing impedance matching only affects the ringing on pulse transitions
Hmm, interesting, how did you measure it? It seems a bit surprising. If it has ~50 Ohm real impedance wouldn't it attenuate signals by about a factor of 2? What happens if you go to even lower frequencies.
For clarification here is impedance measurement of my oscilloscope 1M input:
- at 10 MHz = 57 - j884 Ohms
- at 100 MHz = 43.9 - j96.5 Ohms
As you can see, my oscilloscope input impedance at 10 MHz is not 1 MOhm, but 57-j884 Ohm. So, you're needs to take this into account.
Hmm, interesting, how did you measure it? It seems a bit surprising. If it has ~50 Ohm real impedance wouldn't it attenuate signals by about a factor of 2? What happens if you go to even lower frequencies.
Hmm, interesting, how did you measure it? It seems a bit surprising. If it has ~50 Ohm real impedance wouldn't it attenuate signals by about a factor of 2? What happens if you go to even lower frequencies.
I measured it with vector analyzer. As you can see, this is not ~50 Ohm, it has reactive component (about 18 pF). So, the things are much more complicated, because input impedance depends on frequency and mismatch effect also depends on cable length and cable impedance (because it is also not exact 50 Ohm)...
Yes, because the wavelength of the signals is so much longer than typical cable length.
But as I said, in this frequency range the "wrong" impedance of the cable doesn't really matter.
If the signal leaves the circuit one have to make sure, that the impedances are adapted, for example by using a Pi-network.Yes, "signal leaves the circuit" means it has to propagate some distance. But within a circuit where the distances are very small, one does not need to match impedance. That is why as one goes to higher (GHz) frequencies, the circuit building blocks become smaller and there are more strip lines connecting then. Whereas for 1-10 MHz frequencies, one typically only does impedance matching at the input and output.
because the wavelength of the signals is so much longer than typical cable length.
Some instruments have 50 Ohm impedance for external 10 MHz reference input, others have higher impedance.
You seem very busy avoiding identifying and explaining my 485 photos.
@rhb, see reply #1994
Sorry, kid, but that's more trouble than you are worth. I'm not going to play "hunt the wumpus" for a message number.
The transformer is a little heavy with 2 seperate windings of 12VA each, and an output of 15VAC.
A while ago I decided to upgrade and tune my rather old (30MHz Version 2.9) because I wanted to have a higher precision counter function.
After reading this enormous number of postings, with some very good information (thank you guys), I decided on three items.
The power supply, the oscillator and the driver opamps for the waveforms.
The latter two are easy and have been described various times.
The power supply has been talked about many times, with several options, but there are only a few examples for a replacement.
I decided to design a completely new supply, that would let me adjust the +/- 12V outputs to +/-15V as well.
Going through my parts collection, I picked a 24VA block transformer that I could mount on a protoboard. The transformer is a little heavy with 2 seperate windings of 12VA each, and an output of 15VAC. Both secondary windings are fused with 0.8AT PTC fuses. The primary has two seperate 115V windings.
I decided to use simple LM318 and LM338 voltage regulators for both analog supplies. The only specialty is the circuit around the trimmers, because they are China quality, and therefore cannot really be relied upon. The worst case is when the runner looses contact, creating a much higher output voltage then you intended, and this could potentially blow up the FY6600.
For the digital voltages, I selected a simple DC-DC Buck convertor because doing that with normal regulators would create too much heat. I specifically did not want a fan, with all it's generated noise inside the box. I also used some parts from the old supply, specifically the line filter and the 5V choke.
My unit is intentionally still floating. This can be fixed easily with a BNC/USB connection to another instrument.
To reduce some heat hot-spots from the three on-board regulators, I added some sticky heat-sinks to them.
Enjoy!
The transformer is a little heavy with 2 seperate windings of 12VA each, and an output of 15VAC.
Why did you use 2 bridge rectifiers, with 2 matched secondaries I'd have made a center tap using just one BR.
Good question, I probably should have elaborated on that.
I used the two seperate windings of the transformer to my advantage and make it easier to create a single “star” groundpoint by creating two separate supplies. With center-tapped transformers it’s easier to create grounding issues when using perf or protoboard and not a real pcb. Another reason was that I could use full bridges and therefor smaller buffer electrolytes. Diodes are cheaper than good buffer caps.
The only connection of the two supplies is at the connector to the main board.
Thirdly, I wanted to isolate the high frequency noise that inevitabilly comes from the 5V DC-DC convertor away from at least the negative supply as much as possible.
Good question, I probably should have elaborated on that.
I used the two seperate windings of the transformer to my advantage and make it easier to create a single “star” groundpoint by creating two separate supplies. With center-tapped transformers it’s easier to create grounding issues when using perf or protoboard and not a real pcb. Another reason was that I could use full bridges and therefor smaller buffer electrolytes. Diodes are cheaper than good buffer caps.
The only connection of the two supplies is at the connector to the main board.
Thirdly, I wanted to isolate the high frequency noise that inevitabilly comes from the 5V DC-DC convertor away from at least the negative supply as much as possible.
If you are very worried about the 5V converter noise than you would choose a transformer with a separate winding for that ...
But , I use a linear regulator for the 5V rail + a dropping resistor and the power dissipation is not that big , it is doable . So , you are not bound to use a switching regulator .
Can somebody with newer hardware and/or software confirm this behavior or point me to a post that already described/reported this?FY6800
I see 4nS jitter for pulse wave at 2-3 sec . That's the code inside the FPGA , like the square wave jitter .
This "details" need a lot of coding work , that a small chinese company is unwilling/unable to do ...
Here is revision 0.7 of the bluepill software with the corresponding modified PC Software.
- The Modulation functions are now working
- The SPI write times are improved (bypassing the STM libraries and new specific 32bit write)
- The FPGA write protocol has been improved (The FPGA protocol allows not to resend the Control Register number when the last used was the same)
- The sweep functions are faster, because of the 2 previous points (now 6µs potential update time instead of 10µs)
- The calibration bug found by DaveR has been fixed
Enjoy and thank you for your feedback!
Edit: Should it be usefull, Modulation functions and Sweep functions can work together ...
I have v3.1 , the firmware will work ?Yes it will. I tested it with flash eeproms v3.1 and V3.2.
Hi there!
Sorry for the long break but the last year has been quite hard … That's just life…
Is this a cure for corrupted V 3.0 front panels? It looks *very* nice.
If it is possible to load your front panel FW into a V 3.0 panel, I'll install jumper pins and try it out. Adding the SWD pins would be much less work than swapping out the chip.
A big welcome back, fremen67 - it's been a long time since we last heard from you, and we've certainly missed your input!!Thank you for the kind words, that encouraging!
I'll need to get my brain into FY6600 mode again and dig out the STM programmer, but I'll certainly do what I can to help with the testing.You are more than welcome. The first step would be to test the bluepill version to track bugs and compare behaviour with the stock firmware but if you want to go directly for the front end test, that's even better for me. I would be very interrested in having feedback on the GUI but I won't force you to reflash your front panel. Unless you swap the chips before, it's a one way trip.
The new FP display looks to be a massive improvement in legibility!Thank you but that's only the visible part of the iceberg. I hope you will also like what is under the water :)
The version for the frontpanel is different as the wiring for the bluepill is not exactly the same (the bluepill has an onboard led for example). If you are interested in testing the front panel version, I can post it. In the current version there is no buzzer, no soft power off and some views are still to be finished (configuration and system). Except from the GUI, the behavior is the same as the bluepill version.
I've got a V 3.0 front panel just sitting in a box and an ST-Link V 2.0 SWD programmer which I need to learn how to use. So I'd be very happy to test your FW on the old front panel. I've also got a bluepill or two on hand.Perfect! Here is the front panel firmware, also working with PC Software V0.8.
I think the code is protected , can't be copied , so if you have a working unit you would want to use another microcontroller to play with ... just in case you need to revert to the "original" firmware . Otherwise it would have been easy for people with bricked units to repair their firmware .Exactly. If you flash the original front panel microcontroller, you can't go back.
Why does the chip on the front panel need to be swapped to flash it? My understanding is that all that's needed is to connect to the SWD interface with an ST-Link programmer.You are right, you are not obliged to swap the chip before flashing the front panel but we do not have the binary file from feeltech to flash back the front panel to the original firmware... if ever needed ;-)
IIRC It's configured so that attempts to read it via the SWD interface will wipe the flash, but my understanding has always been that you could *load* new FW. You just couldn't read what was there. But unless you set that restriction when you loaded new FW, the new FW could be read back.
And trashing a good front panel to test new FW made no sense.When you have a complete spare front panel then this should not be a problem to test with the bricked one.
And trashing a good front panel to test new FW made no sense. At this stage I certainly would not reflash anything newer than V 3.0. No sense breaking something that works until you know the replacement works.There is not possibility to upgrade a FY6600 stock firmware <= 3.2 with a newer one from Feeltech. These units are not upgradable unless you have the binary file from Feeltech and use an external programmer.
No sense breaking something that works until you know the replacement works.
Hi fremen67:This is completely normal. The code of the bluepill is exactly the same as the front panel version, the difference is that some I/Os of the front panel can't be used on the bluepill and are remapped for it. But if you connect them, it will handle the LCD, the keyboard and the encoder.
I tried to start the software testing today, but there appears to be a problem with the 0.8 blue pill hex file - it loads ok, but when the blue pill board is plugged into a USB port the PC throws up a "Device not recognised - a device ..... has malfunctioned)" message. I can reload 0.6 and 0.7 hex files on the same board and they'll work fine, but 0.8 causes the error message again. I tried four different boards and it's the same with each. It wouldn't have anything to do with 0.8 being 3x the size of 0.7 would it (it does seem to be a very large jump in size compared with previous versions)?
Regards,
Dave
Just connect the bluepill the way it was with v0.7 and it should work like this. Did you try?
Has DC coupling via the Trig IN port been enabled yet? I can't get any response after I select it, although it's hard to say whether it works under FP control anyway - it never shows a frequency, and the values it does show for Cycle, Width and Duty only rarely coincide with actual values.Yes the Trig IN counter works as well. I reached up to 104Mhz in the front input and 120 Mhz in the Trig IN input with a sine signal.
A lot more to be done tomorrow, starting with the Calibration routines ....
Regards,
Dave
In the case where the front panel is reprogrammed with your software will the internal usb provide the software functionality also , or is the bluepill controller still required ?You don't need the Bluepill when you reflash the front panel. And yes the USB connection on the rear of the FY6600 will work when connected to a PC with the PC Software.
The new simplified gui looks clearer and easier to read ,as well as giving controls well beyond the standard FP setup ,I also like the curve at the edge of the boxes but I wanted the UI to be as fast as possible and drawing horizontal and vertical lines goes faster then drawing arcs… I will keep that for the end :)
From purely a visual perspective I felt a little more curve at the edges of the boxes and soft key tabs on the screen might be more pleasing on the eye , thats all only icing on the cake in the end,
I have two working units , so I'm strongly weighing the options and considering rebranding my modded fy6600 'Frementec'.That would be very nice! What versions do you have?
Does anyone know where the idiots guide to the programmer hook up is located at ?
Yes the Trig IN counter works as well. I reached up to 104Mhz in the front input and 120 Mhz in the Trig IN input with a sine signal.
As for flashing the front panel, it is a matter of soldering a 4 pins header to JK1 (just under the 8 wires ribbon) and wiring GND, JTCK and JMS to a ST-Link V2 programmer.
JTCK to SWCLK, JMS to SWDIO and GND … to GND. Keep the 2 ribbons connected as the power supply will come from them.
In short you switch on the FY6600 , launch the STM32-utility, click Target/Program&Verify, select the .hex file and start!
You will find the software for the ST-Link here: https://my.st.com/content/my_st_com/en/products/development-tools/software-development-tools/stm32-software-development-tools/stm32-utilities/stsw-link009.html (https://my.st.com/content/my_st_com/en/products/development-tools/software-development-tools/stm32-software-development-tools/stm32-utilities/stsw-link009.html)
I discovered the way the left right arrow buttons work while in wave select mode , to change bank from preset to arb thats a handy feature.I completely forgot to describe the new UI funtionnalities but it seems that you discovered them all by yourself...
One thing I've never liked much about the F'tec was the need to press the channel button twice in order to mute or switch on the output channels , if channel select(to top of screen) and on or off could happen in a single key stroke it would be much handier for cueing and mixing the outputs for test signals or even if the unit was used in a musical context .OK I will do it!
So apart from the frequency select mode issue on the encoder push button and the extra zero's that appear in front of the selected field which I thought were unessesary ,I cant fault one single other thing in the new UI , it has a definate edge in terms of intuitiveness of usage compared to Ftec 3.2 .I will change the behaviour of the encoder click when on frequency (revert to defaut value at the moment). It's in my todo list, before the rounded corners but after the system menu ;)
The new measure ,mod and sweep pages are a revelation compared to 3.2 , and full independent mod/sw features on both channels not to mention my formerly 15mhz machine now goes up to 62.5mhz :palm:Thanks a lot for the compliments :) (Sweep on both channels but modulation on channel 1 only as it is done by the FPGA...)
you have truly spoiled us sir !
Fremen67,
Do you have an estimate when you will have a version that will work with a FY6800. I have a 60mhz FY6800 board version 1.7 FW V1.7.1. If you need help testing let me know. Also what LCD are you using with the bluepill.
Thanks
Mike
I just flashed my bricked V3.0 - worked like a charm! Thank you very much for these efforts!
Still didn't get anything from Feeltech - i owe you a beer at least ;)
It doesn't work with a V3.3 eeprom but as I don't have a V3.3 front panel, I can't see what changed in the FP-FPGA protocol for v3.3.
I spotted some other slightly odd behaviour relating to the gate setting and displayed frequency in measure mode , this also seemed to be having some effect on the pc softwares stability. I also couldnt seem to get anything from the trig input on dc mode .
I just flashed my bricked V3.0 - worked like a charm! Thank you very much for these efforts!
Still didn't get anything from Feeltech - i owe you a beer at least ;)
Thank a lot for the feedback!
It is still in development but what about beeing involved in testing the firmware? ;)
This is all well known, but did you notice that (with proper termination of course) the generator's output declines from 10-60 MHz by about half (-6dBv)? I am talking about the FY6800 actually and want to use it as VCO expecting a flat response. I didn't go inside yet to measure directly at the DAC but I suspect there is something fishy going on at the amplifiers. Has this topic been discussed here or anywhere? Is there a "hack" available to fix this?
Thanks in advance
Lutz
I don't understand what you're showing.
Is the sweep synchronized with the scope trigger?
Also please take a look at the PCB. Is there any flux residue visible? Flux absorbs moisture out of the air. This results in an environmentally dependent parasitic capacitance. It would not take much capacitance to cause the drop in output you're seeing.
If you see any flux, clean it off with isopropyl alcohol and an old toothbrush and retest. I've done quite a few repairs, including an HP 34401A which had been repaired previously that consisted of nothing but cleaning flux residue off the board. The 34401A was completely non-functional until I cleaned it. But after cleaning meets the factory spec. It's the more accurate of my two 34401As. The other one was a closet queen and saw very little use.
Have Fun!
Reg
I supose you have another generator that is linear as you want , otherwise you don't know where the problem is .
I have v3.1 , the firmware will work ?Yes it will. I tested it with flash eeproms v3.1 and V3.2.
It doesn't work with a V3.3 eeprom but as I don't have a V3.3 front panel, I can't see what changed in the FP-FPGA protocol for v3.3.
I have v3.1 , the firmware will work ?Yes it will. I tested it with flash eeproms v3.1 and V3.2.
It doesn't work with a V3.3 eeprom but as I don't have a V3.3 front panel, I can't see what changed in the FP-FPGA protocol for v3.3.
Hello , I flashed a spare microcontroller with your firmware ... quick bug , in sinewave the output is badly distorted if I go up in frequency up to 197KHz . If I go back down from here is OK untill 1KHz or something when the distortion appears again . Something in comunication with the FPGA is not quite right .
Hi Fremen67 and welcome back! I surely hope that you were just busy and nothing tragic happened.Thank you! Well... death is part of life… time eases things...
How may I help to figure out V3.3 and what do I need? My FY6600 is V3.3. I don't have a logic analyzer but I do have a Rigol DS1054Z. Probably not enough, eh?You can do things with a DS1054Z but I am afraid the only reasonable way is the logic analyzer.
It would be really nice to see FOSS code that would allow other Chinese OEMs to clone the F***Techs and improve them. It could not happen to a more deserving company.
Can anybody post a csv file that is accepted by FT software, or fremen's software? I can't figure out the format. I'm trying to do a simple ASK modulation on CH1 from CH2 and anything I try will just return an error message and shut down the program.Find attached a sine wave created with the modified PC Software 0.8.
Thanks,
Miti
Just a sugestion , the frequency displayed is still hard to follow with just one decimal point when it is in MHz range for example ... I have to count allways how many digits are before the dot ;D . Would be nice to display MHz , KHz and to move the point accordingly .Thank you for the feedback.
The sub-hertz many many digits ;D I think shouldn't be displayed when are not used ( set to 0 ) .Not sure this will look nice but why not...
If you go to the max with the tens of MHz digit ( by error or not ) , the rest of the display goes to max also and you lose what you have set , maybe you want 59.123456MHz . I think would be better not to let you go beyond 5 if 6 and the rest of the digits would be an invalid frequency .The behaviour your are describing is what I have on my RIGOL DP832 but there are much less digits on it… and I already find it painfull...
When you go down in frequency the same thing happens if you reach 0 and turn the encoder one more time , the rest of the digits are erased to zero , I don't think this is desirable . Zeroing the display could be usefull , but with a long press on the encoder or another combination when you are in frequency adjustment .
I noticed I needed a version of the original Feeltech software installed on the machine before Fremens would run ,I had been trying out the latest FY6900 version pc software ,maybe this caused the issues I am seeing , I wonder is there a particular version of the Feeltech pc software I should be using for maximum compatibillity to Fremen's FP code ,I tried to stay compatible at the beginning with a standard FY6600 but I had to modify the original protocol for the new functionnalities. I don't know if Feeltech changed the protocol for the FY6800 or FY6900 but logically the FY6600 version should be the most compatible with the new FP. Not sure why you would want to use it with the new FP anyway...
I did have another think about the double button press being required to select channel and mute/unmute , maybe a nice idea would be when you initially depress the channel 1 or 2 button have it select that channel to top if its not there already ,then let the unlatching of the button send the command to mute or unmute as required , now only a single press (and release) covers both functions , it only logical captain Fremen >:DIf I get you right, this would than be impossible to show CH1 for example if not displayed without changing CH1 output state …. the same for CH2.
Ive been using version 5.8 of the Feeltech software , and so far find Fremens 0.8 is unusable with a 'run time error 380'That is strange, I have no problems sending waveforms to the FY6600 with the software …
invalid property value, V 0.7 is usable but just for the basic channel functions .
Hi fremen67 , the stand-by button is not working and the red led is allways on . I don't think I have shorts , the voltage on the microcontroller pin go to GND when the I press the button so it seems fine .
If you are interrested in testing the front panel version, I can post it. In the current version there is no buzzer, no soft power off and some views are still to be finished (configuration and system). Except from the GUI, the behaviour is the same as the bluepill version.
Theres a question that came up before about the software catching up to changes via the front panel , V0.7 had the update button , would it be possible for the FP to be programmed to send an equivalent update signal to the pc everytime a value had been altered locally , it would make sure two remotely located opperators are reading the same true values from the instrument at all times .The refresh button is always there but moved to the configuration tab.
One thing Ive noticed on the unit with the flashed Fp code was what seems to be the sine displays corrupted both on the FP display and in software ,I'll have a closer look this afternoon .
Find attached a sine wave created with the modified PC Software 0.8.
This is the original FT format.
You can download it to a standard FY6600 or a modified FY6600 with PC Software 0.8.
Hi Miti - would you mind posting that Ch2 waveform you made? I've got a weather station that hasn't been able to get a time fix from DCF77 for years, and it should help me do a quick diagnosis as to whether it's a receiver fault or just an antenna problem. It will save me having to do a manual time correction every three months if I can fix it :).
Regards,
Dave
I should have done it two days ago. I've attached it in the original post.
Well, I've given Fremen's control software a good thrashing over the last two weeks and, functionally, it has stood up very well. Bugs were very few:
1. Run-time error 384 followed by crash if you try to minimise the window to the taskbar.
2. Run-time error 380 when trying to start software when FY6600 is already running (not every time, but persistent when it happens). Program starts, but fails to open COM port and shows extreme values in parameter boxes. Only cure is to close both program and FY600, then restart program followed by startup of FY6600 and manual instigation of comms. *** SEE BELOW ***
3. Run-time error 6 in Calibration, if out of range number is entered into "Ch1 L:0.5 Min" box (eg accidentally enter a +ve number). The value is saved, but the program shuts down when the message box is closed.
Every feature was tested for operation and works as it should (as far as I can tell, anyway); the only shortcut I took was to only partially test Ch2 with some random settings. Sweeps using VCO input were tested using an FY6800 feeding the VCO of the FY6600 (and kept me amused for hours watching the results on the scope).
The main improvements needed are now to the usability of the control software, some cosmetic, and some to the data entry method.
1. After seeing that popup box appear a thousand times when entering a new parameter, I would just love to see direct entry into the value boxes enabled! If the popup has to stay, then a bigger, bolder font is required to ease eyestrain.
2. Can a shortcut method of number entry be implemented, eg 50m instead of 50000000, 10.7m instead of 10700000, and 455k instead of 455000? Besides being difficult to read and decipher long strings of zeros, I think I'm getting RSI from bashing the zero key!
3. Remove all Chinglish from labels and popups, such as "Forth&Back" in the Sweep - Direction label (which strangely changes to the more usual Back&Forth once the Source has been changed to VCO and back to Time). As Forth, Back, and Back&Forth are not really descriptive of what happens in most of the sweep modes, "Increasing", "Decreasing" and "Alternating" may be better general terms. (Or Rising, Falling, Alternating ?) In the Waveform Window, the "Reset Waveform" button doesn't really describe what it does, ie "Clear Waveform" or "Erase Waveform", and the popup it opens is a good example of Chinglish gobbledegook, when it really means "Are you sure? Unsaved data will be lost."
4. Calibration window - it would be preferable if the first data entry popup opens as soon as the item buttons are pressed, as it's too easy to look away from the screen after clicking on a button and enter the first value from the DVM, only to then find that the popup window hasn't been open... Again, direct entry would be preferable to the popup.
5. Move the Waveform and Text windows to the RHS, so that the most used windows (Control and Configuration) are in their "natural" positions at the left?
6. Provision for naming uploaded waveform slots something other than "RandomXX" would be very good to have. How do you know what you put in Slot 51 a couple of weeks after the upload, let alone six months later?
*** This actually happened again while I was writing this tome, but this time it wasn't recoverable after an hour of trying different things. The only way back this time was a full bluepill erase and reprogram. The full error message showed "Invalid parameter value", and was there even after a simple reprogramming without erasure, so the problem appears to be corruption of the data storage area in the STM32 chip. The first time it happened was after I'd closed the software and turned off the boxes, although they were still connected to the PC which was left running overnight doing other things; the problem occurred the next day, for no apparent reason, when I turned the boxes and software back on again for another session but, as stated earlier, I managed to get everything up again pretty quickly and worked for several more hours without a hitch. This time I'd pressed "Send Data" in the Waveform Window when there was only a blank waveform on screen; wondering if I'd accidentally overwritten the factory sine wave in Slot 1, I went back to the Control Window to check, and error 380 appeared again. (Which reminds me - that "Send Data" button needs a confirmation popup along the lines of "Ensure selected Loading Area is correct. Send / Cancel" to stop accidental overwriting of uploaded waveforms.)
I think soundtec said he'd been struck by the same, or similar, error just a few days ago, but I don't know if he's overcome it yet. I'll keep playing with the software to see if I can find any clues as to what might be happening.
Regards,
Dave
Thanks for that Dave ,
Yeah its very similar to the issue Ive had , like you I found it best to run up the software before the machines connected ,then manually select the com after . I did get a couple of lock ups on both software and the Generator ,but a power down and back up of FY and restart of the software cleared the problem .
Without any software connected I find the FY to work fairly well , its putting out the waves or functions its supposed to do.
One thing I found a bit superfluous was the menu within menu , so for instance say you have a choice of two variables , Trig or counter input , instead of source button toggling trig/counter you have to go down another menu level to select between two variables ,You don't have to go into submenus to modify the list values. It is only usefull when you have a lot of choices in the list as it allows you do directly select the one you want.
I think multiple presses to cycle through the options is better and easier than another layer of submenu ,
I must reflash my on-board Stm32 , I'll be more carefull this time , Ive a feeling there could have been a grounding issue between the computer and the FY6600 last time ,a ground loop and hum I think could upset the flashing of memory , I'll run the laptop off batteries only this time when I run the update .
Maybe screening both the ST link and the FY6600 in a biscuit tin for the duration of the update might be a plan too .
3. Remove all Chinglish from labels and popups, such as "Forth&Back" in the Sweep - Direction label (which strangely changes to the more usual Back&Forth once the Source has been changed to VCO and back to Time). As Forth, Back, and Back&Forth are not really descriptive of what happens in most of the sweep modes, "Increasing", "Decreasing" and "Alternating" may be better general terms. (Or Rising, Falling, Alternating ?) In the Waveform Window, the "Reset Waveform" button doesn't really describe what it does, ie "Clear Waveform" or "Erase Waveform", and the popup it opens is a good example of Chinglish gobbledegook, when it really means "Are you sure? Unsaved data will be lost."
Did you activated the last startup configuration option before it happens? Should you reproduced the problem, could you back up the whole MCU before erasing it? It should allow me to detect which parameter caused the problem. I suppose that the MCU crashed at started when loading the last configuration parameters. I will also add extra checks to detect potential problems.
This should be an easy and quick modification. But what should I use?
There are 3 modes for sweeping:
Mode 1: goes from start value to end value,
Mode 2: goes from end value to start value,
Mode 3: goes from start value to end value then come back from end value to start value
If your start value is lower than your end value, than "increasing" or "Rising" might be confusing for Mode 1 as it will in fact decrease the value…
Other ideas for the 3 modes?
The easiest is to save the full content of the MCU.Did you activated the last startup configuration option before it happens? Should you reproduced the problem, could you back up the whole MCU before erasing it? It should allow me to detect which parameter caused the problem. I suppose that the MCU crashed at started when loading the last configuration parameters. I will also add extra checks to detect potential problems.
Hi Fremen. I'm pretty sure I was running with M1 enabled, and I certainly had another saved config in M2. The problem when error 380 strikes is that the parameters mostly go back to their defaults (or some improbable value such as -1 sec sweep time) or are blank. Although you can change tabs, the screens themselves are completely frozen, so any chance you might have had of correcting an obviously incorrect parameter is gone - one of my first thoughts was to load one of the saved configurations, but there was no way to do it. The Startup configuration on the Config page had also changed back to "Default" and likewise couldn't be changed again. I wish I'd thought to take some screenshots, as they might have been of use to you. After deciding that the nuclear option was the only way left, I unzipped a fresh copy of the 0.8.hex file and did a memory comparison against it before I erased the MCU, and the ST-LINK Utility found no differences, so it was obvious that the program code itself hadn't been damaged. I can't see any option to make a full chip backup, but presumably I could download the pages used for data storage if I knew their start address and size (if ST-Link will allow it)? If you let me know where to look I'll see if I can save the contents next time it happens. (I could have used another bluepill last night and retained all the evidence, as it happens, but it was after 3am and my brain was slowing down!)
Regards,
Dave
Did you activated the last startup configuration option before it happens? Should you reproduced the problem, could you back up the whole MCU before erasing it? It should allow me to detect which parameter caused the problem. I suppose that the MCU crashed at started when loading the last configuration parameters. I will also add extra checks to detect potential problems.
The easiest is to save the full content of the MCU.
You enter a size of 0x20000, right click on Device Memory tab and "save to file" as .hex file
Thank you Dave for the backup :-+Did you activated the last startup configuration option before it happens? Should you reproduced the problem, could you back up the whole MCU before erasing it? It should allow me to detect which parameter caused the problem. I suppose that the MCU crashed at started when loading the last configuration parameters. I will also add extra checks to detect potential problems.
I just tried to create Error 380, and managed it first time! The procedure is as follows:
Start with working software and FY6600, change some values and save the configuration (I started with defaults and set Ch1 to 10MHz sine wave at 3.5v ampl., and Ch2 to 20MHz sine wave at 5v, then saved the config to M2). Ensure "Last" is checked in Config window.
Go to the Waveform window and press "Reset Waveform" then "Send Data". The program will try to send something somewhere, then put up a message saying "No answer from generator".
At this point the software will now be completely unresponsive and may have to be forcibly closed using Task Manager.
Restart the software and Error 380 will pop up. The Control and Config windows should look something like the attached (as you can see, the Control window is nothing like it should be). Tonight the Control window is frozen solid, but the buttons in the Config window can still be "pressed", even though they don't do anything.
I've also got a bluepill which will probably contain some corrupted data (if I can get to it), although the ST-Link utility again shows nothing wrong with the program in memory. (But you can now easily create some corruption of own.)
Regards,
Dave
** Edit: Hex Dump added. **
More testing:Thank a lot Dave for your time.
Tried a new bluepill, freshly flashed, did same procedure as last night, got same result. Reflashed, tried again without saving any config data to M2, but still same result. Both transfers to LA 1 failed after two blocks, and both produced Error 380.
Regards,
Dave
Here's something to think about, Fremen: I didn't reflash the bluepill, but on a whim I started up the Feeltech software v6.0, and it worked perfectly, with all the saved config sets loading ok. Then I closed it and restarted v0.81 and 0.81 was happy again! No error 380, and everything working. Closed and restarted 0.81 four times, no problem. Closed the software and shutdown the FY6600, restarted the software and turned on the FY6600, error 380. Started v6.0, works fine. Closed 6.0 and started 0.81, working again. Closed the software and shutdown the FY6600, restarted the FY6600 then the software, working fine. Closed the software and shutdown the FY6600, restarted the software and turned on the FY6600, error 380.
I don't think you'll find any corrupted data, because it's probably something else that's causing the error, still linked to the transfer protocol. I didn't have any problems with v0.8 until last night, when I tried waveform transfers with it for the first time. It seems that the software is very stable until you do an upload, then something untoward happens causing error 380. It may be significant that the error occurs when the software is running before the FY6600 is turned on, as the error pops up when the COM port is selected - and you did say that COM port handling was still a work in progress, so perhaps it will sort itself out as work progresses?
Regards,
Dave
Let's move forward ;)
Let's move forward ;)
Yes indeed! I'll be waiting for the next release to put it through the wringer again ...
Regards,
Dave
Yeah thats working a lot better for me , I see the ok/encoder push now defaults each variable to a preset value thats great in offset , phase ,duty and rise /fall , my question is would it be simpler to make the default values the same as power on values?This was already existing in the previous versions. As you noticed, this was meant to reset parameters to preset values like offset (0V), phase(0°), duty(50%) and rise/fall(4ns) . For frequency and amplitude that might be less usefull as frequency = 10kHz and amplitude = 2.5 V. These are the default power on values when the "last power on values" option is not checked. It is of course possible to take last power on values when pushing OK but then you have to remember what the values were, plus if you don't use the option, M1 memory, which is used to store the values when powering off, could be empty or could contains values that you don't even remember…
One thing I like about your BP version is the addition of the numeric keypad , I think when you look and compare the FY series to the better makes of stuff thats the big difference , the Rigols and the Owons have a slightly bigger box to encorporate the numberpad .The photo of the bluepill setup I posted might be confusing. I use a numeric keypad on the bluepill just because I needed a 4x4 matrix keypad to replicate the front panel keyboard hardware. Each key of the numerical keypad corresponds to an existing FP key (F1 = 1, F2 = 4, …). It is not used for numerical data input.
I did notice that the data from the counter was only displayed when triggered from software , engageing counter from front panel the software wasnt able to hook in , also software reported back 10khz or ten times the value displayed on the unit itself .The PC software is not reading continuously values and configuration from the FP. This of course possible but it consumes CPU times of the FP to get messages and to reply to them. This could lead to create artefacts when the FP is sweeping waveforms, which is done 100% by the FP software (FPGA genarates the wave and the FP sweeps it).
I still see some waveform corruption in the display for the sine wave ,as loaded on slot one ,it sorta has a tail on it ,visable on the unit itself and also on the softwareAs I explained previously, this comes from a corruption of your sine directly in the main board eeprom. This is a known bug of the FY6600 caused by the FPGA. The only cure is to write the sine definition again in the eeprom. Either with an external programmer or using the FP to do it, which is what feeltech did (this function not developped yet in the FP).
now in 0.82 pc Im seeing two cycles of each wave displayed in the thumbnail view in control window .Yes it was already like this in the previous versions. This might not be a good idea but I found it easier to read for some waves, like ramps for example. As for the FP LCD, it only displays on cycle.
Just as a test I applied factory square wave (slot2) to measurment input , 1khz 5 volts ,all other parameters default , I get back a reading of 49.9 duty and differing +/- peak widths , 499,992 /500,008 and its a bit jumpy ,The square wave, but also CMOS and Adj-Pulse waves are not stored in memory slots. They are dynamically created by the FPGA. It would otherwise be impossible for it to adjust on the fly the duty cycle for them (or pulse length).
I went ahead and created my own square wave in the software ,uploaded it to a blank arb memory slot , comes out perfectly 50% duty and right on 500,000nS and 1khz ,rocksolid
Ill repeat the same test with the unmodified FY6800 next and compare the result . Could it be possible that even the original memory slots data are corrupted to some small degree and that discrepency somehow got worse ,maybe .
Another thing about the measure page was gate mode isnt initially set, maybe just default to 1 second mode like the original software here might be best as I think it causes the pc software to hang up a bit as it expects to see a signal .I guess you still have inconsistent values in M1 from 0.81 and still have "last power on option " checked. This should be fixed after you corrected those values and switch off the FY6600.
So I repeated my test with the standard FY6800 , around 499,994 vs 500,006 was the best I could get , regardless of uploaded/internal waveform , ac or dc coupled input . I did generally see an improvement across both AC and DC measurements with the new waveform , maybe someone else can try the same test .I guess you saw 499,996 and 500,004 ns as they are multiples of 4ns.
.....how about moving to this new board:
The PC software is not reading continuously values and configuration from the FP. This of course possible but it consumes CPU times of the FP to get messages and to reply to them. This could lead to create artefacts when the FP is sweeping waveforms, which is done 100% by the FP software (FPGA genarates the wave and the FP sweeps it).
...
Fremen, considering this:The new firmware is written for the existing front panel MCU. This is a STM32F103CBT6 that you also find in the bluepill. Hence the use of the bluepill as a transition......how about moving to this new board:
The PC software is not reading continuously values and configuration from the FP. This of course possible but it consumes CPU times of the FP to get messages and to reply to them. This could lead to create artefacts when the FP is sweeping waveforms, which is done 100% by the FP software (FPGA genarates the wave and the FP sweeps it).
...
https://www.banggood.com/STM32F401-Development-Board-STM32F401CCU6-STM32F4-Learning-Board-for-Arduino-p-1568897.html (https://www.banggood.com/STM32F401-Development-Board-STM32F401CCU6-STM32F4-Learning-Board-for-Arduino-p-1568897.html) ?
I used it to align some AM radios but now I wanted to align the 10.7MHz IF sections.
So I recently purchased an FY6800. After verifying it worked I ordered an assortment of upgrade parts. I installed a linear 15vdc supply, installed new op amps and replaced the encoder so I could have a larger knob. Next was to figure out how to get a repeatable setup for FM IF sweeps and contribute to the thread.
I also want to repair/restore/adjust/align/fiddle with some FM receivers. I'd be interested how you make out. Is it necessary to have such high outputs that new power supplies, op-amps, etc are needed?
Also, I'm trying to synthesize a usable FM multiplex stereo test signal. I have an RF signal generator with an FM function, but the multiplex signal is complex and I'm still trying to figure out the best way to do it. Any ideas?
Did you guys ever extract the built-in firmware?
I found this paper that extracted firmware from an STM32F1 series MCU 'easily':
https://tches.iacr.org/index.php/TCHES/article/download/7390/6562/
Page 9/10 (207/208)
Sounds like a fun project.
Edit:
And by an interesting coincidence, this paper specifies a FeelTech unit for generating their attack glitches.
That attack was tried and did not work on this device. You can find the details back around pp 15-20 of this thread.
That attack was tried and did not work on this device. You can find the details back around pp 15-20 of this thread.
Really? I took a look at those pages and didn't see anything about it. I saw references to the Fraunhofer attack (which doesn't work on this STM32F1) but not the one I found.
..... I suggest you go all the way with THS3491....And what do you plan to do with 3491's PowerPad on this PCB, which isn't prepared for it ? :palm:
Look what I found in the dumpster at work today... among other goodies. GPS modules, brand new 7" LCDs 800x480, RF cables, pressure sensors, small screws, etc.
Fully isolated +/- 15V and 5V power modules. The first thought was... replacement for my FY6600 power supply. With a Mean Well 24V/15W (or even a decent 24V wall adapter from a thrift store) and two of these power modules, plus double LC filtering, I think I can get a pretty decent and quiet power supply with a small footprint. What do you think?
Datasheets and link attached.
https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-ultimate-gps (https://learn.adafruit.com/adafruit-ultimate-gps)
Edit: Those are not LDOs, they are Schottky diodes. The question is, what's a PIC doing there? Probably just ON/OFF and supervision?
[More realistically, you seem to be in possession of around 270 dollars' (American) worth in dc-dc modules in total (assuming the photo represents your complete collection). Still a respectable return on your dumpster diving exploit. ;)
=============================================================================================
JBG
If you think you can easily solve the noise and ripple issue with cheap AM1117 LDO ICs, think again! For this trick to work, you'll need special LDOs designed to reject noise and ripple into the low MHz region - your standard off the shelf AM1117s just ain't going to cut the mustard for this job. :(There is a very simple solution for that: use an RC filter in front of the LDO. The resistor will also help to dissipate some of the energy lost in the LDO.
If you think you can easily solve the noise and ripple issue with cheap AM1117 LDO ICs, think again! For this trick to work, you'll need special LDOs designed to reject noise and ripple into the low MHz region - your standard off the shelf AM1117s just ain't going to cut the mustard for this job. :(There is a very simple solution for that: use an RC filter in front of the LDO. The resistor will also help to dissipate some of the energy lost in the LDO.
Apologies for being the new guy, waltzing in here and asking newbie questions, but...
I was wondering if some kind soul could give a brief summary of what are the big issues with this signal generator (and presumably the handful of re-branded equivalents) that have resulted in 87 pages of discussion over the last 3 years? It sounds like there are some major issues with firmware and/or grounding or something, requiring some to lash out at the vendor to get off their butts and fix it?
I ask because I have one of the re-branded versions and it seems to work fine. Surprisingly capable, IMO, for a $80 device, including some very surprising PC software that seems to do a nice job.
And while I'm the last guy to ever fall into the TL;DR camp, in this particular case I can't really justify reading 87 pages of stuff for an $80 device. :D
Thanks much to any kind soul who can assist.
Thanks much. I sure appreciate it.
I've got the Koolertron version (pretty much identical to the Feeltech and others), and I've been quite impressed at what you get for 80-90 bucks. Even the USB/PC software was VERY surprising, allowing you to build waveforms and stuff. It actually works.
Here are information how to dump STM32F1:Nice article but the author is very bold about this being the first non-invasive attack. The paper I linked found success in using power glitching to bypass the bootloader check. Power glitching is non-invasive, right?
https://blog.zapb.de/stm32f1-exceptional-failure/
The paper I linked found success in using power glitching to bypass the bootloader check. Power glitching is non-invasive, right?
Did you guys ever extract the built-in firmware?
I found this paper that extracted firmware from an STM32F1 series MCU 'easily':
https://tches.iacr.org/index.php/TCHES/article/download/7390/6562/
Page 9/10 (207/208)
Sounds like a fun project.
Edit:
And by an interesting coincidence, this paper specifies a FeelTech unit for generating their attack glitches.
hello help repair the FY 6600 after a failed firmware. If enabled, only two green LEDs on the generator channels light up and nothing else is lit and the power button does not respond in Windows 10. The device is defined as a USB CH340
com port is not active in the port management program, tell me how to repair this device.
I understood the firmware in altera
Hi,
which kind (size, Material) and value of resistor should i use to connect GND and PE?
is there any upgraded FY6600 Function generator? I want to buy one.
is there any upgraded FY6600 Function generator? I want to buy one.
Check the FY6900
I had one of the NEC output relays fail in my generator which I had for only a year and haven't used much. Seems a bit surprising, unless NEC is not really NEC.
Even the the most expensive of high quality components can fail (just ask NASA) and relays being 'relays', this doesn't necessarily indicate the use of a fake or counterfeit part. NEC relays can fail, just not so frequently as the more cheaply made versions is all. Just be thankful that it lasted a whole year before failing. >:D
JBG
Another PS mod. Original one just died, so I had to invent something quick and dirty.
I had old laptop power adapter and a few cheap dc-dc buck modules ($0.7 delivered), so you can see the result. One is connected according to http://www.ti.com/lit/slyt516 (http://www.ti.com/lit/slyt516) to get negative voltage.
The output now is much more stable, so it's an upgrade for about $2 ;)
If somebody is going to follow me, note that I disassembled the original adapter. Don't do it! I wanted to save cables, which turned out to be a bad idea. Disassembly is messy, everything is glued inside and it's very easy to damage something. Just cut the two cables.
Once I started playing with my FY6600 to replace the NEC relay, I thought would be nice to replace the switching power supply as well. There has been a lot of discussion of various power supply options here, but I noticed this triple +5V, +/- 12-15V low-leakage linear power supply is available inexpensively:
It's a bit underpowered, rated only for 0.1A for +/- 12V, but fits nicely in the box. I measured the current limit is actually about 130 mA, which is sufficient for most cases. Reducing the current sense resistors from 3 Ohm to 1.5-1.8 Ohm increases the current to 250 mA without introducing any ripple.
Once I started playing with my FY6600 to replace the NEC relay, I thought would be nice to replace the switching power supply as well. There has been a lot of discussion of various power supply options here, but I noticed this triple +5V, +/- 12-15V low-leakage linear power supply is available inexpensively:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/SL-Power-Electronics-Linear-Power-Supply-MTLL-5W-A-5V-5A-12-12V-NEW/172432850496 (https://www.ebay.com/itm/SL-Power-Electronics-Linear-Power-Supply-MTLL-5W-A-5V-5A-12-12V-NEW/172432850496)
(Attachment Link)
It's a bit underpowered, rated only for 0.1A for +/- 12V, but fits nicely in the box. I measured the current limit is actually about 130 mA, which is sufficient for most cases. Reducing the current sense resistors from 3 Ohm to 1.5-1.8 Ohm increases the current to 250 mA without introducing any ripple.
Here is the spectrum of the 10 MHz sine output (taken with Owon XDS3063A scope), showing that linear supply gets rid of some spikes in the spectrum. The box runs a little hot, so probably putting a small fan in there would be a good idea.
(Attachment Link)
Another PS mod. Original one just died, so I had to invent something quick and dirty.
I had old laptop power adapter and a few cheap dc-dc buck modules ($0.7 delivered), so you can see the result. One is connected according to http://www.ti.com/lit/slyt516 (http://www.ti.com/lit/slyt516) to get negative voltage.
The output now is much more stable, so it's an upgrade for about $2 ;)
If somebody is going to follow me, note that I disassembled the original adapter. Don't do it! I wanted to save cables, which turned out to be a bad idea. Disassembly is messy, everything is glued inside and it's very easy to damage something. Just cut the two cables.
Hi! I’m really sorry, however in the TI document linked, after the phrase “ where s is the complex Laplace variable and He(s) repre- sents the higher-frequency...” and a host of equations, I got quite lost. I’m a hobbyst and trying to learn, but not to the point of learning at 50+ this level of math.... could you please post a wiring diagram, as obtaining a neg rail from standard buck converters would be incredibly helpful not only in this application but generally as well? I would really appreciate it.
By the way, I want to publicly thank both JBG and Masterx81 for their help and incredible patience in helping me in the PSU mods and TXCO replacement sourcing.
I sincerely felt that the level of questions I asked both of you guys was really too low for the very high level of competence and skill this forum is known for, and that is why I sent you guys PM’s.
To contribute in some way to the thread, here’s the thermal images of the main board and the psu board. On the PSU there is a frankly unsettling resistor (R3) that is running really hot, about 93 celsius.
On the board, the three voltage regulators near the usb connector, are in dire need of a heatsink. The small and inexpensive ones built for the Raspberry are perfect for this.
The rest of the board is running around 40or so celsius, and I think can go as is - see the other two images, one with the Cyclone, and the other of the components near the opamps under the big existing heatsink.
Boy, I’m learning sooo much just by following this one thread....
I build a linear PSU for my FY6800 with some addons:
I build a linear PSU for my FY6800 with some addons:
- opto isolated USB Interface (4 pol connector with 5V for front board) (CH340G)
- 10 MHz OCXO
- 10 MHz distributor with 2 isolated sine wave outputs (AD8055)
- 50 MHz output for fpga (NB3N502)
- 6 pol connector for external controller board (Blackpill) (with digital poti and reference voltage for OCXO)
Two ldo regulators LM2941/LM2991 with +/- 13V output support the main board. Both can be disabled for power saving (future option).
A DC/DC converter generates 6V for 3 5V LDOs (TLV76750) :
1. Front board and optional controller
2. Main board (can be disabled for power saving)
3. OCXO and 10 MHz distributor (can be disabled for power saving)
The external controller is able to count the 10 MHz pulses with the help of 1PPS pulses and generate a controling voltage for the OCXO.
Option :
In future the external controller should drowngrade the front controller to a display and keyboard unit and take over current control job of the front controller.
This version works but has some mechanical bugs and minor electronical issues.
Therefore I'm working on version 2.0 at the moment:
- Fixing mechanical bugs
- Move the voltage reference and the I²C controled digital eeprom potentiometer from controler board to the PSU board.
(After intial calibration the external controller can be removed )
- use SMA connectors for 10 Mhz and 50 MHz signals.
- add expansion connectors ?
Any comments welcome.
Regards
Rainer
@Labrat101
@Attached are the shematics of version 2.0. (Some resistor values will be modified during first tests)
An eeprom poti for the OCXO voltage and an I²C IO expander are added on the board
I replaced some regulators with THT version to save space on the board and use a heat sink.
I add some sma connctors for HF signals.
Mechanical problems are fixed. (hopefully)
ToDo:
I have to add a connector for controller driven fan.
@ supertrabuco
Yo no hablo español
@Labrat101
@Attached are the shematics of version 2.0. (Some resistor values will be modified during first tests)
An eeprom poti for the OCXO voltage and an I²C IO expander are added on the board
I replaced some regulators with THT version to save space on the board and use a heat sink.
I add some sma connctors for HF signals.
Mechanical problems are fixed. (hopefully)
ToDo:
I have to add a connector for controller driven fan.
@ supertrabuco
Yo no hablo español
Not sure what you want to say. Google translator doesn't really help.
@ battlecoderThe FY66 is upgradable
Wonderful job. Looks like a killer replacement for the puny supply that comes inside and I would definitely love to upgrade my FY6600 with something like that.
Btw, what @supertrabuco said is "Pretty interesting project. Particularly all the connectors and external control". Then he asks if it would be possible to do the same for the FY6900, and replace the small switching supply for a linear 5V, 1.5A one.
That Just confirms what I Previously have said . Thanks.
Total conformation that the Cyclone Chip was a Fake ..
Maybe Intel pressed charges against them for using there Brand name. :-DD.
How well does the Pro 1941 chip work ?
BTW Also my Fy68 had also had v1.9v board .
Sorry No Bad Feeling .
First image is an 11 MHz square wave output, 5VDC p-p. Second is with dots and 1s persistence.