Author Topic: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator  (Read 316364 times)

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Offline jleg

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #300 on: December 07, 2017, 02:36:42 pm »
Mine is version 3.0.  Thanks for the warning about doing a factory reset.

...looks like we now have 3 confirmed failures of this type, all with FW V3.0.

Afaik, current version is 3.2, so perhaps it is safe to try again and order a new one?  Hmmm... ::)
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #301 on: December 07, 2017, 02:56:13 pm »
 I would suggest no, because you should not reward this behavior?

If anything, you should nag them about warranty and refund, and if they go the "return at own expense" route, nag further about either the expense, or about at least sending out a pre-programmed STM32 for self-repair.

(Easy for me to say, I know, mine is still working. I am not sure I would could bring up to invest time in such a thing)

 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #302 on: December 07, 2017, 03:57:37 pm »
I just checked the revision on my FY6600. It is V3.1 and it is still working properly. If the problem is only associated with V3.0 and newer/older versions are ok then I would think FeelTech would be obliged to offer those owners with V3.0 an free upgrade because they didn't get a properly working FY6600 that they paid for.

Some years ago I worked for a company that made a test instrument that had firmware burn into an eprom. Our customers were spread all over the U.S. and a very few scattered customers reported a strange intermittent problem. Seeing these instruments were used for billing huge dollar amounts this was a big deal.  Two of the instruments were sent back and I spent days trying and not being able to duplicate the problem until finally I saw the problem. It took some time to figure out what steps I had done to get the problem to appear because I had pushed a lot of buttons in multiple random steps to get there but I finally remembered enough of what I’d done to duplicate the problem repeatedly. What happened was that one data field had a fixed length and if you entered about 10 unique and not that common steps that data field length was exceeded, pushing data into the next field and someone would be billed many times what they should be.

It could be that in trying to improve the way the FY6600 worked in one area FeelTech inadvertently screwed up something else. It doesn’t seem likely that this could be a hardware problem from what you’re saying about V3.0 so it’s time for FeelTech to do something about offering a solution.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #303 on: December 07, 2017, 04:18:46 pm »
I reread everything, watched the video and looked at all the pictures.  As I don't have one of those CH346s I was going to use a different device.

So to summarize:

The unpopulated header, S1,  next to the FPGA was what was used to access the Winbond  flash.

The PC software can't talk to the device properly even though I can still partially control it via the front panel.  However, it is less than stellar software, so a check by someone with a different FW version would be good.

I was referring to sniffing  the 8 bit bus from the front panel to the AWG board.  That's key to writing new UI firmware.  That should be a pretty simple command protocol.  So it should not be hard to reverse engineer.

There is also an XON/XOFF RS232 port coming from the UI board.

FWIW I read the Fraunhofer paper some time ago, so that has been in the back of my mind all along.

I'm going to raise the repair question with FeelTech to see if they consider the warranty void because of the ground modification.
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #304 on: December 07, 2017, 04:27:01 pm »
I would not even mention the ground modification, unless if they specifically ask about it.
If they do ask about it, it means they do read this thread, and are aware. Maybe no legal weight, but definitely moral weight into the matter.

They will try and evade the warranty by claiming you need to pay for return.
So my advised argument would be they are responsible for that. If they want to fix it, send out new device, front PCB, or maybe even only the STM32


but as mentioned, easy talk for me, I do not need to invest the time and effort.


Edit: the PC software does work for me to control the device. Pretty well even.

Edit2: Not that I think they will offer it, but anyway: Only accept a preprogrammed STM32 as solution if you have confidence in your own ability to solder it.
« Last Edit: December 07, 2017, 04:48:59 pm by cybermaus »
 

Offline feeltech

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #305 on: December 09, 2017, 12:56:09 am »
The array of modifications various posters have come up with to improve the FY6600 is interesting and depends a lot on what that particular user’s main requirements are. My first interest was mainly to make the FY6600 safer by including a real ground through a 3-wire power cord and not to rely on an iffy virtual ground.  Secondly I really wanted to make the timebase more stable and a LOT more accurate with the option of using an external 10 Mhz reference from GPS or a rubidium source. Along the way I discovered the existing power supply was crappy and not what I considered fixable so that had to be replaced as well. The grounding and timebase modifications I made worked as well as I hoped they would so that left the power supply and possibly the output amp that others considered lacking.

Recently I tried replacing the output amps as others had recommended and didn’t see that really improved anything for me and went back to the original single chip. I rarely go above 5 volts output so this modification wasn’t that high on my to-do list. Others have run the FY6600 main board on +/-15 to improve the output at higher levels with no reported problems but I was still worried about a possible failure. I had tried a +/-15 vdc supply I modified to put out about 14.2 vdc to perhaps give me a little more margin of safety. I was uneasy in running the main board at a full 15 volts with the caps on the board rated at 16 volts (as others have mentioned) plus I wasn’t so sure that some of the other parts wouldn’t be stressed by the higher voltage. Almost all SMPSs have one adjustment for the +5 and the other two supplies are ratios of that so to just use that adjustment to lower the +/-15 supplies to about 14.2 volts, which I thought might be safer, would mean that the +5 would be lowered as well by about .3 volts, and I didn’t find this acceptable. What I tried was to put a conventional 3-amp diode in series with the two + and – supplies which would drop those voltages by about .8 to .9 volts while leaving the +5 right on.

While that worked to lower the +/- voltages a little and made me feel a little better, the supply I used that just fit in the space in the case was a supply capable of supplying 60 watts. This meant that although the main board doesn’t require much power, the supply used 10 watts and most of that was given up as heat and the FY6600 ran warmer than I liked. The first 40 watt +/-12 vdc supply I tried was a little more efficient but still generated some heat and used about 8 watts. The supply I settled on was a 25 watt +/-12 vdc supply I have shown previously that uses only 6 watts when powering the FY6600 and 4-5 watts when the front switch is turned off but parts of the main board are still powered. Keep in mind that the OCXO that I used as a timebase stays powered when the back switch is on and does use about 1.5-1.8 watts when it is at temperature but that doesn’t contribute much internal heat.
 
Here are 2 photos. One shows how I added the diodes in series with the +/- supply lines and bypassed then with a couple of tantalum capacitors if anyone might want to try that. The second photo is of the 25 watt supply I showed before. I’m pretty sure these are all the modifications I’ll be making to the FY6600 but I’ll keep reading to see what other great ideas others come up with. In a way I spent more time with the FY6600 apart than with it together and doing what amounts to trying to make a Ford run like a Mercedes when I might have been better off buying the Mercedes in the first place!


Thanks for using our products, we will replace the three-core plug in the next version to improve the stability.
If you have better comments or suggestions can be sent directly to the mailbox: admin@feeltech.net
FeelTech-Professional signal generator and liquid crystal solution
Provide custom development services!
Invites all agents to join us.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #306 on: December 09, 2017, 02:31:01 am »
I sent FeelTech an email about my scrambled V 3.0 unit earlier today.  In it I linked both this thread and the reflashing thread.  I also explained about the grounding mod I'd done and why.  I saw the response in the reflashing thread even before I read the email response sent to me. That's *real* customer responce!

I've contacted the eBay seller about getting a new front panel so I can avoid redoing the power plug mod.  I added 200 nF from the PS ground to the plug ground which lowered the voltage on the BNC ground from 176 Vpp to 1 Vpp.  More work than I expected, but worthwhile.  The fiddle was because I had to add a small metal brace to support the plug receptacle I scavenged from a dead PC PS.

I rather hope they'll offer a revised unit with external reference input and a sweep ramp output.  I'll be very happy to buy another one with those features.  It makes them very handy for checking HF filters, etc.  You *can* do that by triggering on the width of the first sync pulse, but it's more fiddly than just using XY mode.
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #307 on: December 09, 2017, 06:47:19 am »
Amazing responses both threads.  :-+ Please keep us updated on how this warranty repair stuff works out.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #308 on: December 09, 2017, 05:30:50 pm »
I sent "admin" a link specifically to Ebel0410's spectrum analysis post. That's pretty powerful marketing material for FeelTech. I've also noticed that there is another clone called Koolertron.  The other ones have nicer cosmetics, but lack the back panel options.  FeelTech has a number of variants, some in aluminum cases, but lacking the back panel connections.

The timing of ArthurDent's summary was quite fortuitous and feeltech's quoting it very encouraging. 

It would be very interesting to know who the designers are.  I noticed last night that Hantek offers design services both initial and updates.  It's entirely possible that the instrument section of FeelTech is a couple of people working in an LCD manufacturing plant who got funding to buy a design and market it.  If you think about it, the reluctance to provide schematics and source code may be contractually required by a design house when a manufacturer licenses a base design.  It would be interesting to hear from blueskull or some other Chinese member familiar with electronics manufacturing in China.  The "cloning" might not represent IP theft, but rather reflect product design as a service.  I can easily see a small manufacturer with excess capacity buying the rights to use a variant of an existing design rather than engineering there own product.

The seller, sportsgogo, replied saying they were contacting the supplier about my request for a new front panel.  I spent a long time last night browsing the sportsgogo eBay store "industrial" section.  Staggering assortment of goods. They have warehousing in the US, so if they will allow returns to the US rather than China I may shop there a good bit more.  I don't like buying expensive stuff direct from China because of the cost of a return.  But I'd be much more comfortable with shipment from China if I could make a return to a US location.
 

Offline bitseeker

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #309 on: December 10, 2017, 02:54:37 am »
It would be very interesting to know who the designers are.

I agree that it'd be great to know more about the designer(s) of the FeelTech equipment. I had heard that they used to work for or have been otherwise associated with one of the competing companies in the space. Unfortunately, I don't have anything more concrete than that.
I TEA.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #310 on: December 11, 2017, 05:43:30 am »
Slow day in the shack today. Such as the frequency measurement on the 34401a is. Very consistant with 30 minutes to an hour at each stop. Bit of flicker at 1Meg but most likely the agilent.

I have a couple of aged Polytron ocxo on the way to play with and make a 10Mhz standard not that I need better than it is  8)

Currently running 10.00042 Hz
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Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #311 on: December 12, 2017, 08:07:36 pm »
As you may have seen in the other thread I've decided to spend some time reversing/redoing their FP software and got me one of the devices from a supplier that claims it's in Germany.
Before it arrives, cybermaus, did you hook the debugger and read the protection level, is it one or two ?
The panel controller is confirmed STM32F103C8 ?

  Best regards,
  DC1MC
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #312 on: December 13, 2017, 03:30:07 am »
Its one.

Though it is always possible they changed it to two on later builds / firmware's especially with all these links to Frauenhofer around.
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #313 on: December 13, 2017, 07:06:50 am »
Cool, that's nice to know, I'm curious what will be the level on mine, but as I've said, if we can recover the firmware it's perfect, to allow for a fast "clean room" implementation, similar with the Compaq and original PC BIOS, to get rid of all the copyright crap, if not, reversing the FP schematic and communication protocol with the signal board is the way to go, there are TONS of libraries for LCD driving and key matrix reading, hey we could even implement a FW update using either the USB or the, now useless, serial port header on the PCB.

Also, if its the level 2 already programmed, I've asked a more HW oriented friend what can we do, besides un-soldering the chip, and his response was disconnecting the power supply, and replacing it with a pulsing slightly negative current supply, something like 1KHz /-0.6V/few mA just to put the protection diodes in conduction, but not overload them, and then blasting the chip with a cooling spray to at least -25C or lower.
2-3 cycles and the flash content is gone, or so he says.
If I'll have to replace the chip anyway (if level 2 protection is programmed) I may try this before replacing the chip.

Related, if someone who had the generator FP borked, and can sell or loan the defective device/FP for a reasonable price, including shipping to Germany, for research purposes, please PM me. In case of a loan I promise to follow the pharmacists principle "Primum non nocere, hic curare" so it will most likely not have its state worsened.
 

Its one.

Though it is always possible they changed it to two on later builds / firmware's especially with all these links to Frauenhofer around.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #314 on: December 15, 2017, 01:25:28 pm »
Screw cleanroom, just throw the ripped flash on a torrent and publish improvements as binary patches.
 

Offline Chris56000

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #315 on: December 16, 2017, 07:40:51 pm »
Hi!

My plan to buy one to document on this Forum has borne fruit and I'm expecting delivery after the Christmas Holidays!

I'll be posting pictures, details of FW version, waveform samples, plus circuit-details, parts lists, etc., rev'd from the unit exactly from as I receive it, and I'll report the effect of the OEM's "Factory Reset" - if it borks the unit then I'll send the STM32 FP Assembly to Member DC1MC for his perusal!

Unfortunately I haven't got (can't afford yet!) one of those nice colour-screen LED Oscilloscopes that other members publish their oscillograms from, I can only offer ordinary analogue 'scope trace pics for now!

Chris WIlliams
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 07:44:59 pm by Chris56000 »
It's an enigma that's what it is!! This thing's not fixed because it doesn't want to be fixed!!
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #316 on: December 16, 2017, 11:34:09 pm »
Hi Chris, thanks for the offer, it's gladly accepted, but let's hope that yours and mine won't do any borking at all and we'll do all the research just for the purpose of opening the firmware and extending the functionality.
Mine hopefully will arrive some time before Christmas so I can profit of the little vacation.
Don't worry about the scope, the time for it will come, but most likely you'll need some cheap Logic Analyzer because I'd say that the first thing is to sniff and decode the protocol between the FP and the signal board. Once this is done then the signal board could be controlled form other sources as well, I'll eventually produce a remote control device using the 7,99EUR OrangePi Zero that is a neat Linux system and much easier to program for non-trivial stuff than an Arduino (IMHO),.


Hi!

My plan to buy one to document on this Forum has borne fruit and I'm expecting delivery after the Christmas Holidays!

I'll be posting pictures, details of FW version, waveform samples, plus circuit-details, parts lists, etc., rev'd from the unit exactly from as I receive it, and I'll report the effect of the OEM's "Factory Reset" - if it borks the unit then I'll send the STM32 FP Assembly to Member DC1MC for his perusal!

Unfortunately I haven't got (can't afford yet!) one of those nice colour-screen LED Oscilloscopes that other members publish their oscillograms from, I can only offer ordinary analogue 'scope trace pics for now!

Chris WIlliams

 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #317 on: December 18, 2017, 09:57:59 pm »
 I don’t have a real spectrum analyzer but I get a fairly good idea of how much jitter my FY6600 output has by observing the waveform on my scope at the highest sweep rate and lowest volts/division and also plotting the output frequency over time using a computer program. This plot also gives me a good presentation of how the OCXO I installed in the FY6600 drifts during warm-up after it has been off for a few days. I set the output to 3 volt and a sinewave of 10,000,000 Hz and then plotted this output compared to a modified Trimble Thunderbolt GPSDO and Lady Heather software so I’m not just checking the oscillator output against GPS but checking the output of the FY6600 after it has done all its magic to produce this frequency and waveform from the OCXO. There is always a retrace error with crystal oscillators so on every power-up they never settle on exactly the same frequency but are very close. On this test the 10,000,000.000 Hz output settled at about 0.047 Hz higher than the 10,000,000 Hz I set the OCXO to the last time I used it. This is why on frequency standard OCXOs once they have stabilized and have been adjusted you leave them on.   

Initially at turn on the output was high (low on the graph) but within 10 minutes it was almost at the exact frequency. For the next 20 hours the frequency increased about an additional .04 Hz before leveling off at about .047 Hz high. As long as the switch on the back is on the OCXO and parts of the main board have power but the display is blank. Because the internal timebase is close enough for most testing I would use it for I have found that leaving the switch on the rear panel off and having this small error isn’t a problem. If I need a really accurate frequency I have the added switch on the rear to switch from the internal timebase to one of my external standards which is always on and far more accurate and stable.  Even though the frequency of the FY6600 can be set in steps as low as microhertz I can’t see how I could use such small steps.

The attached photo shows the 10 Mhz output (in white) plotted over an almost 30 hour period. The first 20 hours the OCXO is warming up and settling at what will be its frequency for this power-up cycle. After about 20 hours the frequency is very stable but plotted over days and weeks you would see a smaller drift due to aging of the crystal. You can also see a slight temperature correlation after the 20 hour mark. Weight loss as atoms are ‘boiled’ off the crystal slab increasing the frequency slightly. The big dip in temperature (yellow graph) was cause by my house temperature being set lower at night.   
 
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Offline rhb

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #318 on: December 18, 2017, 10:55:46 pm »
Talk about turning a Ford into a Mercedes!

Very cool.
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #319 on: December 19, 2017, 05:42:08 am »
Second this, transforming the device from a "meh-OK" device to an "almost R&S generator quality" is an impressive feat.

I hope that I'll be able to duplicate or come close o it on my device.

 Congraturlations Arthur  :-+
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #320 on: December 19, 2017, 06:18:20 am »
Which replacement power inlet socket do you recommend ?

I like a lot these IEC320-C6 sockets, because the cables are less bulky then the usual ones:
https://www.mouser.de/productdetail/schurter/43000100?qs=sGAEpiMZZMv1TUPJeFpwblxZ%252bgbqW48rSymwXXVJLLw%3D

But I wasn't able to find any filtered or switched ones, given that they are mostly used for laptops AC adapters.

In case of a classical one, which model are you recommending, probably switched as well, I don't see too much space on the back panel.

 

Offline beanflying

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #321 on: December 19, 2017, 06:47:15 am »
I just used a cheap and cheerful Chinese switched one https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1343235/#msg1343235

Staying IEC made sense as most other things on my bench already have them. A little off topic but  I also got a couple of these which tidied up my bench and gear shelf a lot. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Black-57cm-IEC-320-C14-Male-to-3-x-C13-Female-Y-Splitter-Power-Cable-Cord/331700358437?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
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Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #322 on: December 19, 2017, 06:53:32 am »
What about these guys. they are cheap cheerful AND filtered ?

http://www.mouser.com/ds/2/769/lcr082-971565.pdf

I just used a cheap and cheerful Chinese switched one https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/feeltech-fy6600-60mhz-2-ch-vco-function-arbitrary-waveform-signal-generator/msg1343235/#msg1343235

Staying IEC made sense as most other things on my bench already have them. A little off topic but  I also got a couple of these which tidied up my bench and gear shelf a lot. https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Black-57cm-IEC-320-C14-Male-to-3-x-C13-Female-Y-Splitter-Power-Cable-Cord/331700358437?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #323 on: December 19, 2017, 07:01:23 am »
...but checking the output of the FY6600 after it has done all its magic to produce this frequency and waveform...

This already amazed me last time, when you had the 10.123.456,78 MHz test. I would have thought that the clunky nature of the software would skip and misplace a tick every so often. But it seems that while the UI is clunky, the FPGA part is running very well disciplined. put 10.000.000,000 in, and you get 10.000.000,000 out
That means this device really can use a good reference.

As to being a Mercedes: Its still a cheap car. Just with a new state of the art ignition system.
But it is cool though, for us folk who look under the hood.

On the 3-prong plug: I just de-soldered one from the pile of junk recycle corner.
No need to buy anything fancy.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #324 on: December 19, 2017, 07:09:22 am »
What about these guys. they are cheap cheerful AND filtered ?

Check the overall height? I think you may run into problems as that switch is a lot taller than the one I used.
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 


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