Author Topic: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator  (Read 316411 times)

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Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #375 on: December 28, 2017, 07:40:06 pm »
Hi, these are the latest news, my fw. is indeed 3.1, I've contacted the seller that hasn't responded yet and "suddenly" all the available 60MHz units are not available anymore, just some 30MHz.
I was able to read the CD, it seem to be some software for more models and due to some family obligations I wasn't able to do more.
I seem that my LA will be delayed to the next year as well :'(, so I have to use my 4 channels Tek to try to get some data out of the bus, if I don't send the device back. Really, I wish that seller and his company to have 4 as a number for 10 years and  live trough the most interesting of times.
I'm so happy that there is someone with a 3.2 software willing to sniff the bus as well, I will try to hook the scope tomorrow and see what is coming out.
And Feeltech, I know that you're monitoring the thread, do try to get some (half)honest distributors, you will lose face and crash your momentum, you've managed to anger a large part of your customer base.
See you tomorrow, DC1MC
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #376 on: December 29, 2017, 12:11:24 am »
My last communication from FeelTech :-(

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Re:FY-6600 V3.0 FW problem
Thursday, December 21, 2017 3:51 AM

From:
    "????" <admin@feeltech.net>
To:
    xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

We will deal with it as soon as possible to keep you waiting

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------

No response at all from the seller since this:

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Friday, December 8, 2017 11:40 PM

From:
    "eBay - sportgogo" <sportg_gx3808oho@members.ebay.com.hk>
To:
   xxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxxx

sorry for this,we will check with supplier,please don't worry.
best regards,
 
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


Needless to say, I am not happy.  It is very hard to believe there is a good faith effort being made.  In fact, I don't believe *any* effort is being made.  So I think complaints to eBay and PayPal are in order.
 

Offline armrisc

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #377 on: December 29, 2017, 02:25:09 am »
Hi guys! My firsts post here. I'l read about this generator for a while and i started to realy like it. Expecially external trigger is realy usefull for my uses(in contrast to JDS6600) At the start i was looking at the Rigol DG1022, but for a hobbyist - price is to high for my liking, so Fy6600 is like a superb new year gift for mysefl. :)
The reason I registered is regarding firmware - mainly problems with it - display corruption, not possible to reflash it localy etc. What concerns me the most is why this corruption ocurrs? You can avoid problems if you know reasons, but at this point it's a black hole.
I read through all posts, maybe missed it. As far as my understanding goes it only can be related with waveform upload, this is the only time write to chip is happening?, or is it memory overflow,bug  issues and with time you will be hit by corruption anyway? Returning device to manufacturer for me is is a no-go, I can by a new item for the same cost. Any ideas anybody?
Thanks in advance.
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #378 on: December 29, 2017, 02:57:26 am »
I modified mine to add a grounded power cord as my scope showed 176 Vpp from the BNC to earth ground.  I closed it up and it sat on the bench hooked up to a scope and a frequency counter for a couple of hours.  Everything was fine.  I shutdown the lab bench and went to bed.  The next day I powered it up to do some more experiments.  Display was borked.  It mostly works, but several waveforms stopped working entirely.  At power up it sets very strange values which *are* the correct values for the output.  My screen looks exactly like the photos in the first post of the reflashing thread.  Another owner tried to reset to factory defaults.  That made the unit completely non-functional.

I never got as far as trying to load a waveform.  The consistency of the failures of the V 3.0 devices indicates it's a serious software error.  It is known that 3.1 has problems and there is a growing suspicion that 3.2 also has a problem, though the extent of issues with 3.2 is not yet well known.

My post earlier today should give you a pretty good idea of the current support situation.  You *really* don't want one of these until FeelTech provides replacement front panels to affected owners.  Unless, of course, you're looking for a repair and hacking project.  Those of us with borked units would love help figuring out how to fix them.

These are *not* getting borked by the users doing something wrong.  They are failing because there is a FW error which FeelTech knows about.  They have updated the FW twice, but have not provided any fix for units in the field.  Lots of promises, but no action.  Returning a failed unit to China will cost $30 from the US.  There is no guarantee you'll get *anything* back.  So returning it is just throwing good money after bad.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #379 on: December 29, 2017, 03:30:16 am »
As I have mentioned before in this thread and given the numbers of firmware failures of these time for Feeltech to come up with a method of user upgrading.

Continual placing of their heads in the sand over this will see a severe decline in sales as any quick Google check of their product will get you here!
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline Chris56000

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #380 on: December 29, 2017, 04:56:15 am »
Hi!

I've just been advised by Royal Mail that delivery of my unit is expected by 9 Jan – I've no problems with that as I ordered mine for delivery to my work address and I'm not back on duty till Tuesday the 2nd!

Funny the 60 MHz units all seem to be suddenly "out of stock" or "unavailable" tho' – this does make me wonder if the maximum sine frequency is both a hardware and a firmware change!

(I can't afford to buy a unit of each frequency–spec. to see what the differences are!)

Regrettably I've little or no experience on extracting communication protocols, having never had reason to need to do it, but I will do what I am experienced at, namely providing a set of full schematic diagrams!

I do have one question tho' – are the "waveform graphics" shown on the front display/U.I. actually drawn/calculated from whatever is sent to the DAC controls, or are they a simple graphic plot worked out from a library function table, etc?

Chris Williams
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 05:15:37 am by Chris56000 »
It's an enigma that's what it is!! This thing's not fixed because it doesn't want to be fixed!!
 

Offline g0mgx

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #381 on: December 29, 2017, 06:39:10 am »
I do have one question tho' – are the "waveform graphics" shown on the front display/U.I. actually drawn/calculated from whatever is sent to the DAC controls, or are they a simple graphic plot worked out from a library function table, etc?

The graphic on the screen changes with waveform and if applicable Duty, no changes with amplitude, offset of phase. Both Ch1 and Ch2 waveform types appear regardless of the on/off status of the channels.

Mark
 

Offline g0mgx

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #382 on: December 29, 2017, 07:08:21 am »
I am rapidly concluding that the bug list in this device is way longer that any of us realise.

This morning I have tried two identical signals 90 degrees out of phase; they measured about 83 degrees apart. Then a quick power on off corrects this issue but now the channel 2 signal has the weird DC offset I reported previously on Ch1  but Ch1 is centered around 0V correctly. With both channels the same (using the "Sync" feature) at 10MHz and an amplitude of 0.5V, a soft power off guarantees neither channel will start on power on until you alter the amplitude of each one away from 0.5V.











I'm rapidly drawing conclusions on this unit, especially around the amplitude setting of 0.5V where **something** weird seems guaranteed every time  |O

Mark
 

Offline CustomEngineerer

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #383 on: December 29, 2017, 07:29:07 am »
Continual placing of their heads in the sand over this will see a severe decline in sales as any quick Google check of their product will get you here!

I'll believe it when I see it. These units have had major issues since day 1 (that feeltech still hasn't addressed), but people continue to buy them anyways.
 

Offline Mr. Scram

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #384 on: December 29, 2017, 08:03:19 am »
Just to be sure, but did you properly terminate the cables? Weird phase shifts can be sometimes seen in unterminated cables, though I'm not sure the frequency is high enough for that.
 

Offline beanflying

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #385 on: December 29, 2017, 08:49:15 am »
Continual placing of their heads in the sand over this will see a severe decline in sales as any quick Google check of their product will get you here!

I'll believe it when I see it. These units have had major issues since day 1 (that feeltech still hasn't addressed), but people continue to buy them anyways.

It is a shame as the built in feature set with a few on going hardware improvements from there end would see market dominance in this lower priced Sig Gen market. Open Source the software/firmware and remain the hardware provider and take advantage of a user base modding and tweaking would be a win win for them.
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline g0mgx

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #386 on: December 29, 2017, 08:56:06 am »


Just to be sure, but did you properly terminate the cables?
Yes, the 'scope is 50R terminated in both channels.

I've created a video of my issues (well only some of them)

https://g0mgx.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/feeltech-6600-issues-list.html

I can't help thinking that what I am seeing is a combination of firmware and possible some crappy relays sticking.

Anyone with the same unit, can you reproduce what I show on the video?

To confirm the firmware in my unit is 3.2.

Mark
G0MGX
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #387 on: December 29, 2017, 09:16:16 am »
Hi, just some replies on topics, in no specific order, of course everything is IMO and IMMV:

- The people still buy it because for the price is by far the best option of a signal and AWF generator, the signal board is decent but controlling part is crap, they've chosen a way too weak MCU that does way too much. And the original, non-copied Chinese software still has a lot to catch, the hardware production was outsourced in China, not the software (that was outsourced in India).

- The distributors and FeelTech are in between a rock and a hard place, even with Asian production costs and sponsored shipping to EU/US, I believe the margins are not too big. And shipping from EU/US to China is NOT sponsored, to every repaired unit will bring them a net loss. Not to mention that the firmware is way too unstable and more than one trip will be needed, even if they will release the firmware, the unit needs serious modifications to even be capable of upgrade, it still could be possible that there is some way to do it over the exposed serial interface and FeelTech are just a-holes not willing to release the firmware.

In the end they will probably design another unit, a bit better and leave the ones who bought the FY6600 hanging dry. So the effort to reverse and open source the protocol/fw may or may not succeed, who wants official vendor support for this model is probably out of luck and should try to return them while still possible.Who decides to keep the unit, either because it likes it or it does modifications that voids the warranty should better start hooking the logic analyzers and draw schematics, I'll do it, because I've promised to do it and I see some value in the signal board.

DC1MC
 
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Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #388 on: December 29, 2017, 09:18:20 am »


Just to be sure, but did you properly terminate the cables?
Yes, the 'scope is 50R terminated in both channels.

I've created a video of my issues (well only some of them)

https://g0mgx.blogspot.co.uk/2017/12/feeltech-6600-issues-list.html

I can't help thinking that what I am seeing is a combination of firmware and possible some crappy relays sticking.

Anyone with the same unit, can you reproduce what I show on the video?

To confirm the firmware in my unit is 3.2.

Mark
G0MGX

Hi Mark, I don't believe in the sticky relay thing, I believe that most likely when they try to restore the state after stand-by, they just forget to restore thing properly in the signal board, IMO it's 100% a firmware issue.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #389 on: December 29, 2017, 09:23:07 am »
Continual placing of their heads in the sand over this will see a severe decline in sales as any quick Google check of their product will get you here!

I'll believe it when I see it. These units have had major issues since day 1 (that feeltech still hasn't addressed), but people continue to buy them anyways.

It is a shame as the built in feature set with a few on going hardware improvements from there end would see market dominance in this lower priced Sig Gen market. Open Source the software/firmware and remain the hardware provider and take advantage of a user base modding and tweaking would be a win win for them.

The one that will convince a Chinese company to open-source and deobfuscate the specs of one of their (good selling) products will be remembered for ever as a hero and saint, it's so opposed to their culture that it's almost impossible, the specifications, protocols and everything must be reversed and extracted with great pain if someone wants them.

On the other side, profiting form OSS and public knowledge and not giving anything back, hell yeah, that makes good business sense, "they are giving this sh..t for free, let's use it..."
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #390 on: December 29, 2017, 11:15:24 am »
they've chosen a way too weak MCU that does way too much.

Any proof of that statement? I think that this is only empty screaming around.  72MHz Cortex M3 is pretty adequate to control a decent DDS generator.

The MCU does zero to nothing, apart from reading buttons and playing with the LCD. This is simply a issue of crap FW, not weak MCU.

All the interesting magic happens inside the FPGA. The MCU just commands it with the frequency and other such settings.

Reverse engineering the schematic would be awesome. However, is reverse engineering of the FPGA-to-MCU protocol necessary? Wouldn't it be easier to make the whole FPGA content new? I can not help much with that, as I have less than little experience in VHDL (and only using small CPLDs), can only offer quite some expertise on STM32.
My idea about the FPGA does tell me, there really should not be that much in there.

But considering the amount of work required for this, wouldn't it be better to even redesign the PCB? I see a lot of room for some marginal improvments, right?
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #391 on: December 29, 2017, 11:28:40 am »
One step at a time, in order of difficulty:

 1x - Capturing the schematics, to see with what we're actually dealing.
 3x - Decoding the communication protocol and capabilities of the existing signal board / firmware.
 9x - Redoing the STM32 firmware in a proper way.
27x - Exploring and fully understanding the possibilities and limitations of the current signal board design, including the firmware.
81x - Redesigning and producing an improved FPGA firmware.
243x - Redesigning and producing another signal board with better features and performance

These are my very conservative and optimistic estimates of the difficulty multiplication factor of the tasks ahead.
One has only to provide the number of hours needed for capturing the schematics.

So, let's try to get the schematics of the existing unit to get the unit of effort (UE) in work hours for the project.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 
 

Offline kahe40

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #392 on: December 29, 2017, 12:40:30 pm »

Anyone with the same unit, can you reproduce what I show on the video?


no such a behavior here with 30MHz model and v3.1 with Ser# 893 783 770
and a quick test (family is demanding), but You say in Your blog :

>> ... amplitude setting of 2.0V (the manual says this is "default"
>>  peak to peak - I have found no way to change this "default" setting).

try   SYS/MORE/factory default:OFF
and save several presets in SYS/SAVE/S01 S02 ...

those are my conditions, FactoryOFF
and several saved Sets, from which I start working.
Maybe in your fresh unit something is not initialized ?
Or new bugs in v3.2 ?

edit Ser#
« Last Edit: December 29, 2017, 01:27:28 pm by kahe40 »
 

Offline Yansi

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #393 on: December 29, 2017, 12:52:21 pm »
One step at a time, in order of difficulty:

 1x - Capturing the schematics, to see with what we're actually dealing.
 3x - Decoding the communication protocol and capabilities of the existing signal board / firmware.
 9x - Redoing the STM32 firmware in a proper way.
27x - Exploring and fully understanding the possibilities and limitations of the current signal board design, including the firmware.
81x - Redesigning and producing an improved FPGA firmware.
243x - Redesigning and producing another signal board with better features and performance

These are my very conservative and optimistic estimates of the difficulty multiplication factor of the tasks ahead.
One has only to provide the number of hours needed for capturing the schematics.

So, let's try to get the schematics of the existing unit to get the unit of effort (UE) in work hours for the project.

 Cheers,
 DC1MC

Well I am aware of that this is a time consuming black hole, but I'd like to point that you should probably have some coefficients even bigger. Guessing you can do the schematic within a few hours, but you won't rewrite the STM32 firmware in just 10 hours. Maybe 50 hours, likely more. Well... lets keep us being optimistic :D
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #394 on: December 29, 2017, 05:13:44 pm »
I would say a proper schematic capture will take at least 10 hours, rewriting the STM firmware after one has the full schematic and protocol to be implemented fully specified, it's realistic to have it in beta after 90 hours.

 DC1MC
 

Offline Chris56000

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #395 on: December 29, 2017, 07:48:07 pm »
Hi!

Quote
I would say a proper schematic capture will take at least 10 hours, rewriting the STM firmware after one has the full schematic and protocol to be implemented fully specified, it's realistic to have it in beta after 90 hours.

I think that's a reasonable, possibly even conservative, estimate of the time needed to produce a good set of Schematic Diagrams!

I admit, as I said in a previous post, that I'm not skilled in reversing firmware or communication protocols in a given piece of unknown equipment, but I can use Member DC1MC's estimate of how long the drawing–out will take as a guide and compare how long I take with the ten hours estimated!

(I think it wouldn't be a wasted effort for more than one of us to work on the schematics as with a densly–populated analogue/digital surface–mount PCB like this it's so easy to get it wrong somewhere, which would affect the FW reversal!)

My suggestion for new firmware would be:–

1) Find out what type of LCD driver is needed for the original display and design a good U.I  (No horrible Chinese Lettering!) – Our Continental Friends may be able to assist with translations for additional languages if needed;

2) Find out how many functions need to be sent back to the main PCB for control of the Altera Cyclone;

(Waveform type selection, amplitude, frequency, phase, DC offset etc., per channel, plus one function for each Arbitrary Waveform provided – it may be possible to use the PC software provided by FeelTech to get the waveform–function for each Arbitrary Waveform provided;

3) Decide on implementation of the additional control functions – AM/FM Mod, VCF, Sync, etc;

4) Consider wether a Frequency Counter Function is needed;

5) Finally, the "housekeeping" functions – factory reset, Cal/setup, self–test, firmware-update, etc;

I certainly agree it's not trivial but I thought if I set out a rough draft of the firmware functions first it'll assist those excellent chaps on here who are much more "au–fait" with software/firmware engineering than I am!

Chris Williams
« Last Edit: December 31, 2017, 09:31:12 pm by Chris56000 »
It's an enigma that's what it is!! This thing's not fixed because it doesn't want to be fixed!!
 

Offline Marco

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #396 on: December 29, 2017, 08:48:26 pm »
If someone can read out the firmware finding the buffer overflow (or they might be slamming the flash with way too many writes I guess) shouldn't be that hard if they have IDA ... it happens frequently enough that it shouldn't take too long just triggering on memory access. Binary patch it and throw it on the internet.
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #397 on: December 29, 2017, 09:36:33 pm »
If someone can read out the firmware finding the buffer overflow (or they might be slamming the flash with way too many writes I guess) shouldn't be that hard if they have IDA ... it happens frequently enough that it shouldn't take too long just triggering on memory access. Binary patch it and throw it on the internet.

Uhmm, so which firmware version exactly are you talking about, all seem to be buggy ?
 

Offline rhb

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #398 on: December 29, 2017, 11:53:53 pm »
Based on my bus probing, there is a pretty simple command protocol.  The UI shows the user what the current parameters are and transmits the changes. At boot time it sends the boot time settings to the AWG.  Other than an ACK/NACK, there is no reason in AWG mode for any traffic from the AWG board to the UI board.

So IMHO, the first step is to figure out what the UI sends to the AWG when you change a setting.  Forget the counter function until the AWG works.  That's the part that's valuable.  You can buy a much more capable counter on eBay for $12-15.


As for reading the FW, read the Fraunhofer paper, implement it and get back to us with the FW dump. We'll be happy to take it from there.

I've had to fix a few million lines of other people's code.  At a certain point, it is easier and quicker to simply consider the problem and write the code from scratch.  I think that is true in this case.  Using the device as an AWG only requires sorting out the command set.  I'll gladly write code to control the AWG via RS-232.
 

Offline Marco

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #399 on: December 30, 2017, 12:09:14 am »
Uhmm, so which firmware version exactly are you talking about, all seem to be buggy ?

The most severe bug, ie. the fact it trashes the program storage, shouldn't be too hard to track down with a disassembler (IDA) and debugging once you have ripped the firmware. Then you can patch it at assembly or even machine code level.
« Last Edit: December 30, 2017, 12:11:06 am by Marco »
 


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