Author Topic: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator  (Read 316057 times)

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Offline rhb

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #600 on: January 26, 2018, 01:47:28 am »
For those who are interested I started this thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/what-is-the-state-of-the-art-for-a-reasonable-diy-la/

to focus on providing an affordable high performance LA solution  using COTS HW and FOSS software.

PS I'll order my repair parts manana.    Sometimes it's just more fun than I can stand.  Makes me want to go hang sheet rock.
 

Offline DaveR

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #601 on: January 26, 2018, 01:59:08 am »
I have just received my FY6600 (30Mhz) from Aliexpress and ... looks like they have updated the PSU :-)

Hi Guillaume - the power supply in yours is the same as in mine (also v3.2 firmware).  It's also the same as was used in the FY3200 series, when the board was labelled v1.1; ours are v1.6, but there's no visible difference between the two versions that I can see.  I'm hoping that the change of the main board from v1.50 to 1.501 might just be the correction of the flaw in the design, and not just a "suck it and see" attempt to sort it out.

Dave
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #602 on: January 26, 2018, 02:44:58 am »
The new power supply in the unit gbraux just received doesn’t instill confidence in me that FeelTech is trying to improve the FY6600. As soundtec mentioned the yellow cap on the input has been eliminated (and the resistor next to it) plus there are other changes. It appears from the photos of the 2 supplies that the ‘new’ board material is phenolic where the old one was fiberglass, which I consider better. The cut gap in the old FY6600 power supply board under the optoisolator that is a safety feature has been eliminated as has the grounding pads already mentioned. All the parts on the secondary side seem to be the same values as near as I can see except the larger of the 3 diodes near the transformer (that I assume is for the +5 supply) is physically smaller on the new board.

I get the feeling that the new supply isn’t better at all and they just cost reduced it to save a few more cents and it certainly won’t improve the performance at all and it could be worse.  Using the same supply that is used in the FY3200 series certainly would be a cost cutting move. I wonder if there are other similar changes to the main board, it would be interesting to see side by side photos to see. My guess the main board has remained the same.

So far my FY6600 is still working but I have my fingers crossed.
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #603 on: January 26, 2018, 07:11:33 am »
Hi. I am new to the forum, so a big hello from Paris, France.

I have just received my FY6600 (30Mhz) from Aliexpress and ... looks like they have updated the PSU :-)
I also ordered some IEC connectors at the same time ... but I won't bother making the ground hack : Ground-BNC to Ground-Earth = 300mV :-)

Did you measure AC or DC?
 

Offline DerKammi

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #604 on: January 26, 2018, 08:49:32 am »
This one : https://www.mouser.fr/ProductDetail/913-4816M16A2TG6AGTR
But you then have to either change the USB VID/PID in the program (DSview) or in the onboard eeprom so that it is seen as a "Plus" and not a "Basic" one.

Whoaa €20 shipping, that is steep. Got 1 spare by coincidence? It would make a nice way of tackling the Feeltech hobby board :)

Where did you change these in the DSview? in the source code?
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #605 on: January 26, 2018, 09:07:29 am »
Are you sure? I get a "this product ships free" message for mouser. Did you check mouser.nl or mouser.fr?
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 09:10:31 am by cybermaus »
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #606 on: January 26, 2018, 09:08:33 am »
@everybody - sorry some family thing to do got hold of my time, now I'm done, so back to our business.

@DerKammi - Fleabay to the rescue, Mouser, Digikey and friends have very fast and reliable shipping, but also very expensive. It's worth getting lots of stuff to offset the transport costs. They really are "en-gorre" sellers mostly.

@fremen67 - Thanks for the extra captures, I was wondering how is the FPGA detecting between reada and writes, I see on my captures that there are two CS cycles, one with the address CD goes up and then goes down again for data. Anyway, I'll have a full week-en, the DS Studio compiled nicely on my Ubuntu 16.04.

@rhb - I'll add to the LA topic you've created, I'll post soon the github to the code of the seller along with schematics of the board I've chose, call for features and some ideas for high-speed, high-impedance, pods, both active and passive. I think there are enough "cheap affordable" analyzers that on anything over 33MHz are useless, time to try a mid-range design with COTS stuff.

@Guillaume To me the new PS doesn't look way better, and frankly, the voltage gradient against ground of 300mV looks waaay too good even for hi-end unearthed SMPS. 


 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 

Offline DerKammi

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #607 on: January 26, 2018, 09:32:38 am »
Are you sure? I get a "this product ships free" message for mouser. Did you check mouser.nl or mouser.fr?

I'm afraid the warehouse is in France, under 50 I get 20 shipping.
 

Offline cybermaus

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #608 on: January 26, 2018, 09:50:43 am »
Oh yeah. When I actually press "order" they add the usual 20. Sorry.
But why the highlighted "ships free" on that page? Weird marketing.
 

Offline 001

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #609 on: January 26, 2018, 07:23:38 pm »
I`m crasy with 25 pages tread   |O

But tell me in two words please:

Is item have some big problems exept stupid power supply ground?
Is it good for money?
Why nowbody didnt rehouse it in metal enclosure with external quiet 60Hz transformer PS?
 

Offline SMB784

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #610 on: January 26, 2018, 07:45:21 pm »
I`m crasy with 25 pages tread   |O

But tell me in two words please:

Is item have some big problems exept stupid power supply ground?
Is it good for money?
Why nowbody didnt rehouse it in metal enclosure with external quiet 60Hz transformer PS?

1.) Is item have some big problems exept stupid power supply ground?  Yes, it has the problem that it breaks itself for no reason if you turn it on too many times (i.e. it has a very limited lifespan)
2.) Is it good for money? If the above problem is fixable, yes.  Otherwise, no.
3.) Why nowbody didnt rehouse it in metal enclosure with external quiet 60Hz transformer PS? People have done that
 
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Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #611 on: January 26, 2018, 07:57:16 pm »
@001: To make it short for you:

The signal parameters of the generator are very good for the price IF/WHEN this thing behave according to the specification, measurements have been made with pro equipment and I've actually heard the signal in hi-end transceiver. It's very clean and stable and only on high levels on 50ohm load you start hearing the power supply and distortions. The modulation and usability is very good and the PC software control it, it's clumsy but usable. The external USB control interface looks like an ASCII command serial port, so it can be controlled from different other device. The good new end here !!!

The bad news:
The power supply is a miserable, unstabilized, ungrounded POS, and noisy under load. It leaks high voltage on the floating ground and has to be grounded and/or replaced with an stabilized +/-15V, +5V stabilized power supply, no discussion here. Ground this shitty POS PS or better replace it. This alone will increase the quality of the signal, especially under load at high levels. the output operational amplifiers could be tweaked and replaced with two independent one, same with the oscillator, could e replaced with stable external reference. This will give you some minor but useful improvements.

 THE MISERABLE BAD NEWS AND THIS IS WHY FEELTECH IS A BAD COMPANY THAT DISRESPECTS THE CUSTOMERS

As others have said, the thing has a terrible firmware flaw and it self-destroys after some power-cycles, and we're fighting and struggling either reverse or reproduce the front panel firmware, Feeltech put there some kind of "salami pricing" to differentiate models.
They WILL NEVER RELEASE AN FIRMWARE UPDATE AND IF YOU DO ANY MODIFICATION YOU EITHER HAVE TO THROW IT AWAY OR PARTICIPATE ON OUR EFFORTS HERE !!!
If you want a plug'n play generator and you're not prepared for serious efforts and frustration, buy something else, don't buy it !!!
 YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED !!!

   
 
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Offline SMB784

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #612 on: January 26, 2018, 09:03:10 pm »
As others have said, the thing has a terrible firmware flaw and it self-destroys after some power-cycles, and we're fighting and struggling either reverse or reproduce the front panel firmware, Feeltech put there some kind of "salami pricing" to differentiate models.

Just out of curiousity, what does "salami pricing" mean?  I've never heard the term used before.
 
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Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #613 on: January 26, 2018, 09:27:21 pm »
@SMB784: AFAIK, "salami pricing" or "salami slicing"means having a product, that have its intrinsic capabilities limited arbitrarily and then the limitations are removed after paying piecemeal, like all those scopes and analyzers and other TE that have 100% same hardware but features (sometime trivial) blocked and unlocked for extra cash, so the fully featured device it's the salami and you slice it for the customers to buy 100g at a time (only when he's starving, of course).
This proved to be a good sales and marketing strategy, because it was statistically proven that slicing the features and selling them separately brings more profit then selling the device fully featured ( for example, one scope/SA fully featured costs less than the same scope  + later bought licenses/unlock codes for the feature).
In our case, Feeltech decided copy this strategy and launched 2-3 models with the EXACT same hw, but frequency ranges limited arbitrarily (20, 30, 60MHz or such).
But but being beginners at this game, they put the limitations in the  front panel MCU firmware and because the platform has no DRM, they 've released different priced versions with the MCU flush fully locked and no possibility of upgrade.
This would have somehow worked, but their firmware is buggy as hell and crashes, corrupting the data structures of the flash, and without updates possible on-site, the salamification strategy ;) failed.

 Cheers, DC1MC
 
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Offline SMB784

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #614 on: January 26, 2018, 10:57:14 pm »
Good explanation, I understand now.  Thanks for that clarification.

Online Yansi

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #615 on: January 26, 2018, 11:19:00 pm »
Didn't know about the phrase "salami pricing", although I got  sieben Jahre Deutchkurs abgeschlossen.  :)

(Or is it a German specialty word phrase? Never heard of it.)
« Last Edit: January 26, 2018, 11:20:43 pm by Yansi »
 

Offline ArthurDent

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #616 on: January 26, 2018, 11:21:29 pm »
This might be considered "salami pricing". The company I used to work for made a product to read electrical power meters. They also made a reader/programmer to program these same meters. The reader sold for $3000 and the reader/programmer for $5000. I worked on this line of products so I knew the only difference was the code contained in the eprom that told the unit what to do. I asked a marketing representative how they could justify charging that big difference for basically no physical difference and he told me they were charging for functionality.
 

Offline 001

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #617 on: January 27, 2018, 12:34:25 am »
Sanx a lot!

What is alternative avaliable at EBAy?
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #618 on: January 27, 2018, 10:00:11 am »
Sanx a lot!

What is alternative avaliable at EBAy?

Well on need to sank me, the problem is that are really not  many acceptable AWGs in this price range, the FY6600 it's a sane design with possibilities of improvement by a hobbyist, or else nobody will give a rat behind for it.
What sinked it as a product, were the miserable decisions of FeelTech, a company that doesn't care about customers and wanted to squeeze the last cent form a good design, by Chinese-fying it.
IMHO if they would have chosen a sane power supply, with good mains isolation, suitable for a test instrument, the price increase would have been, like 10EUR, at most.
If they would have assembled the hi-quality components (the PCB has places for them) that would have added an extra 10EUR, maybe.
Adding a way to update the firmware, or at least opening the protocol to the signal board, would have not cost them a cent and all of the bad reputation would be gone, "oh well, we've screwed this firmware version, kindly please update", hell, they could have put this option in their PC control software.

But they've really wanted to sell the same hardware at different prices, and they thought that locking the firmware will protect them against the customers "upgrading" the devices and competition copying their design, that is laughable, on the chosen hardware it would have taken a week at most to a dedicated Chinese "replica laboratory" to build such a replica. But how much cheap a similar hw replica could cost, the profits on this design sold at 100EUR end price were anyway razor thin and the competition has build one rather similar device with R/2R DACs that will now slowly erode their market, even if IMHO the ADC solution is better.

They should have take a hint from their betters, Rigol and Siglent, that were not making a fuss about the enthusiasts modifying their "salami" to get all the slices ;), because they've realized that in professional environment it's not worth the time spent and loss of warranty, and if you have actual and future professionals getting used with your stuff, they will recommend it in the workplace. Microsoft realized this long time ago.

 So yeah, I can't really recommend a similar replacement, if you get the FY6600 with the 3.2 firmware, it's somehow OK (no reported catastrophic crashes), after the modification of the PS and the previously described stuff, it depends on how much you're convinced that voting with the wallet can convince a company to change it's ways.

 For me it's a nice hobby project, I've improved my old hw knowledge (too much sw dev in the day job), got reasons for a new cool project (a high performance LA), meet nice people and my inner geek had fun looking on how they implemented their stuff and trying to reverse it. And in the end, I may also got an usable AWG and signal generator out of it ;). So it's worth the money and time spent.

YMMV of course  :D

 Cheers,
 DC1MC


 
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Offline Ebel0410

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #619 on: January 27, 2018, 10:01:34 am »
Hi Guillaume,
welcome to the forum .
That sounds like good news ,maybe the original supply was responsable for the dodgy batch ,
I said I might as well repost this image from a previous comment for the purposes of comparison.
not the greatest of images ,maybe theres a better one to be found .


Hi folks
(and welcome to Guillaume, the french team is growing day after day  :D)

Regarding the PSU photo you posted here, it doesn't sounds good at all imho.
The batch or the provider of the PSU seems different, but as a result it's always a holy piece of shit.
10µF as a primary cap is undersized, a 33µ or 47 value should be a minimum.
No reasonable quality highspeed diodes and low ESR capacitors on the ouptput stage, even if it costs some more cents, it would be a positive gamble for Feeltech.
Proceeding like Feeltech is doing with the PSU design is a total mistery for me.

« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 04:52:17 pm by Ebel0410 »
 

Offline 001

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #620 on: January 27, 2018, 12:39:58 pm »
--

thanx again!


Does it mean what firmware can fail randomly? Is it possible to dump it?
Is a firmware fail a part of Planned obsolescence strategy?
How many  bricked FY6600 You know?
« Last Edit: January 27, 2018, 12:42:22 pm by 001 »
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #621 on: January 27, 2018, 05:26:17 pm »
@001:
Yes, it's very possible to fail, totally random and unexpected, because FeelTech don't feel anything for its customers.

No, the firmware it's locked, there is a paper from the German Fraunhoffer Institute describing an attack against flash reading protection (with code for the exploit device), so far nobody, AFAIK, managed to do it for this chip.

No, that was a stupidly done sales strategy that backfired, the bad company FeelTech representative (that actually STARTED this thread to advertise their device !!!)  even admitted that their NEXT model will have upgrade capabilities, like somebody will pay AGAIN for their stuff, but prolly not a problem, they we'll change the company name as usually in China.

At least 4 bricked devices in this thread, mine with firmware 3.1 just destroyed so far the stored sine waveform but their latest software can attempt to repair it that, most of the people had them returned via EBAY or Amazon policies, the problem is with the people that already modified their device's power supply and lost warranty 2 weeks later. Even the persons who didn't modify the devices and had them auto-bricked had to deal with hostile and non-cooperative distributors.


@everybody else - Prepare for FUUUUUUN WITH REGISTEEEERS  in the next post !!!
 
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Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #622 on: January 27, 2018, 10:15:28 pm »
Fun with Registers: Episode 3 "Off and On"

The CH1/2 switching procedure does two large IDENTICAL transfers (T1 and T2) and a small one that actually matters (T3)

Let's start with T3, 21 register writes.

1D:00000002
24:00000010
2B:00000A50
2C:000007FF
06:000000C4
06:000000C4
2D:00000DD1
2E:00000000
02:000186A0
01:00000000
04:000186A0
03:00000000
2F:00010000
30:00010000
05:00000020
38:07FFDFFF
39:07FFDFFF
08:000FFFFF
09:000FFFFF
37:00000001
37:00000000


This is actually the "classical" CH1/2 parameters setting, from the previous episodes you've seen that this train of registers comes when one rotates the digitizer button and change a channel parameter, it could be possible that actually this is all you need to set the parameters, at least in sine wave.

##### Commercial break >:) #####

T1 and T2 are two identical transfers of 4 identical large-patterns, they seem to be used to build the waveform displayed on the LCD by sampling 100 times the FPGA waveform RAM and also a mystery part of the RAM that could be a calibration constant.
Each large-pattern has 100 basic-patterns, or samples, the address/block from where to read is given in the register 0x12 (at least), the readback is done via register 0x0E, another register that it's read is 0x18, but it always return 32bit of 0, could be a way to prime the SPI block or maybe some status.
The RAM addresses/blocks in the register 0x12 are always spaced at the 0XA2 offsets.

The waveform samples are nice and clear, with some peculiarities (the wave first value doesn't start from 0), but the the accompanying calibraton/offset/mystery constant is vey strange, please see the plots. Please see the attached plots.


Basic-Pattern (sample) element:

12:00063F5B <- Setting the sample point address, waveform.
0F:00000001 <- Write op, unknown purpose.
0F:00000000 <- Write op, unknown purpose.
18:00000000 <- Read but result is always full 0.
0E:XXXXXXXX <- Read operation there, waveform value.
12:00063F5A <- Setting the sample point address, calibration ?
0F:00000001 <- Write op, unknown purpose.
0F:00000000 <- Write op, unknown purpose.
18:00000000 <- Read op, always 0.
0E:XXXXXXXX <- Read op, calibration constant value ?

Notes:
At the large patterns start there is a small 4 register op header, purpose unknown:
14:00000000 <- Write op, unknown purpose.
16:00000000 <- Write op, unknown purpose.
18:00000000 <- Read op, always 0
18:00000000 <- Read op, always 0

All uses data files are attached for independent verification, plots of one full waveform sample and the corresponding calibration offsets/constants are attached.
All data derived from member fremen67 capture file fy6600_CH1_OFF_ON_100Mhz_FULL.dsl form a previous message.

 Cheers and tired,
 DC1MC
 
 
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Offline beanflying

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #623 on: January 28, 2018, 05:46:40 am »
Sorry for the lack of bit bashing from me but the shack is currently over 45 degrees again  :phew:

I have ordered a bus pirate to play with this as well
Coffee, Food, R/C and electronics nerd in no particular order. Also CNC wannabe, 3D printer and Laser Cutter Junkie and just don't mention my TEA addiction....
 

Offline DC1MC

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Re: FeelTech FY6600 60MHz 2-Ch VCO Function Arbitrary Waveform Signal Generator
« Reply #624 on: January 28, 2018, 08:56:42 am »
Sorry for the lack of bit bashing from me but the shack is currently over 45 degrees again  :phew:

I have ordered a bus pirate to play with this as well

@beanflying, oh the injustice of weather distribution, here in between two large rivers  I have to deal with Gothic/Gotham weather for 10 weeks now, it's a perpetual dusk and then night, when the bloody hurricane was blowing the sky cleared for 2 hours and then the ceiling closed again, it drives me crazy, there a good chance to go to a tanning salon just for the UV and vitamin D.
About your choice of LA, Bus Pirate, I kind of lost the contact with whatever community stuff, but you're sure that it can stream reliably at 50MHz at least 6 channels and has RLE in sample mode?
Or else it's useless for our SPI bus-pirating purposes on FY6600.

@fremen67 You are the savior Mua'Dib, until my LA project bears fruits you're the only one who got reliable captures, in need the following captures:
 - Setting amplitude/frequency message (start capture, trigger on -CS and rotate the encoder one position), it seem that the setting message on 3.2 has 21 register operations instead of 20 and I want to see the difference. It will help with the Episode 2- "Hopey and changey!
 - The same setting message for duty cycle value when the wave it's square, to activate this function, the duty cycle register it's assumed but not proved, kindly please try to get the extremes and somwhere in the middle.
 - BIG ONE: Capture the process process of switching the wave, form sine to triangle, and triangle to square, if's the only big deal on how to load waveforms, there is also the custom waveform issue but we leave this for later.
Thanks a lot and sorry that I put this burden on you, for the moment no other capable LA is hooked to an 3.2FY6600, made by FeelTech - "Our Bugs it's Your Problem".


@everybody - I'm going to tackle the startup sequence, wish me luck, 'cause it's looking a lot like work !!!
 
 Cheers,
 DC1MC
 


 


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