Author Topic: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol  (Read 908516 times)

0 Members and 2 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Mark_O

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 937
  • Country: us
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1975 on: December 24, 2013, 12:51:35 am »
I am suggesting the amount of rotation to jump to the next selection be a bit larger...

No matter how large they make the amount of rotation it can always be just on the edge when you press the button, so I think it would make more sense to solve this in the software, like ignoring a turn when it happens less than 100ms before a push or something like that.

Since it has no way to see into the future (needs faster FPGAs for that :) ) to determine that a push is about to occur, that means it will delay all turn reactions for that same interval.  Aka, "is this a real turn, or an accidental turn while clicking?"

The response from users will then be... "Why is this d@mn thing so laggy?  The responsiveness to the knobs is poor."
 

Offline JDubU

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 364
  • Country: us
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1976 on: December 24, 2013, 01:33:28 am »
Since it has no way to see into the future (needs faster FPGAs for that :) ) to determine that a push is about to occur, that means it will delay all turn reactions for that same interval.  Aka, "is this a real turn, or an accidental turn while clicking?"

The response from users will then be... "Why is this d@mn thing so laggy?  The responsiveness to the knobs is poor."

You don't need to delay the response to the knob rotation.
Keep a short FIFO buffer of knob position, sampled every tenth of a second or so while the menu selection is exposed.
When the push occurs, use the position sample that was first stored a half a second ago.
This would ignore any movement of the knob that occurred in the previous half second but the knob rotation would continuously highlight the appropriate menu item without any lag.

 

Offline Jason

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 6
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1977 on: December 24, 2013, 08:23:20 am »
No matter how large they make the amount of rotation it can always be just on the edge when you press the button, so I think it would make more sense to solve this in the software, like ignoring a turn when it happens less than 100ms before a push or something like that.

Since it has no way to see into the future (needs faster FPGAs for that :) ) to determine that a push is about to occur, that means it will delay all turn reactions for that same interval.  Aka, "is this a real turn, or an accidental turn while clicking?"

The response from users will then be... "Why is this d@mn thing so laggy?  The responsiveness to the knobs is poor."

Here's a better algorithm:  Reset the hysteresis if the knob has stopped moving for 50ms.  In other words, when you pause for a moment it sets a small dead zone and it ignores the spin until you turn 3 degrees in either direction.  This means that after you pause and see that you're on the the correct menu item it won't be right on the edge; clicks are registered instantly; and there's no perceptible spin lag (it starts moving within 3 degrees of rotation and stops immediately).

I desperately wish they'd fix the stupid knobs.  I can't tell you how many times I've tried to spin the horizontal offset to 6.0000ms, going as slow as possible and watching it go:  5.900, 5.9200, 5.9400, 5.9600, 5.9800, 6.2400.  20% of my menu selections miss no matter how careful I am.  This is by far the biggest usability problem I've had with my scope.
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1978 on: December 24, 2013, 08:13:15 pm »
Did some testing with the new FW, and updated my Bandwidth chart.

There is not much more bandwidth on a 2072 with option 300 Mhz, the entry
of the 2072 , the non A models, dont get 300 Mhz, mine goes to 280 Mhz.
The lack of a internal 50 ohm terminator...

Also got more noise, see picture with only 1 channel, and then enable channel 2,
the difference is clear, on 1 nS the sample rate is to low for two channels.
The performance is worse on 1 nS then on 2 nS.

I did the test with the DSGH key, see option picture.

So the advantage of the new bandwidth option is not big for the non A models.
You are better off with the 200 Mhz version. So use the DSEZ key for better performance.

Edit 25/12: the key for CAN and 2202, is DSEZ, E for Can and Z for options + 200 Mhz.

Picture of the FFT i added, because i notice better function of the FFT after upgrading to version 2
The FFT function are much better to operate with the new FW.

So my DS2000, is just on the edge of 300 Mhz, on the post pictures below of EV, you an see the
litttle differences between two models, just a few dB, can also be the tolerances in the signal generators.
Normaly a tolerance off 1 dB is normal.

Marmad already stated a few posts back, the non A models where not good enough for 300 Mhz.
they had to modify the entry in the A models.


All measurements are done with the same 2072 and hardware version 1.0.1.0.0
« Last Edit: December 26, 2013, 09:05:11 am by Wim13 »
 

Offline Kobus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: za
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1979 on: December 24, 2013, 08:15:15 pm »
Maybe I am missing something obvious. Is there some quick way to remove measurements from the bottom of the screen.
There are dedicated buttons for adding measurements but I cant find a quick way to clear them.
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1980 on: December 24, 2013, 08:17:50 pm »
Maybe I am missing something obvious. Is there some quick way to remove measurements from the bottom of the screen.
There are dedicated buttons for adding measurements but I cant find a quick way to clear them.

Measure => clear all items
 

Offline Kobus

  • Contributor
  • Posts: 13
  • Country: za
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1981 on: December 24, 2013, 08:55:15 pm »
Maybe I am missing something obvious. Is there some quick way to remove measurements from the bottom of the screen.
There are dedicated buttons for adding measurements but I cant find a quick way to clear them.

Measure => clear all items

That's what I have been doing. It is actually Measure => Clear => All items.

I just found it strange to have dedicated physical buttons for turning them on
and then a menu two levels deep to turn them off.
 

Offline EV

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 524
  • Country: fi
  • Aficionado
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1982 on: December 24, 2013, 08:55:21 pm »
I did also tests with my originally DS2202 scope. The chart is done with manual sweep and the picture with automatic sweep. I have used HP 8642A generator which is connected with about 1.5 meter long RG58 cable using 50 ohm feed through terminator to the scope. Manual sweep gives BW about 300 MHz and automatic sweep about 310 MHz.

I have also measured Rise Times and noticed that if also Ch2 is on measured Rise Time increases about 0.1 ns (from 1.13 ns to 1.22 ns).


Did some testing with the new FW, and updated my Bandwidth chart.
.
.
« Last Edit: December 24, 2013, 08:58:53 pm by EV »
 

Offline EV

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 524
  • Country: fi
  • Aficionado
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1983 on: December 24, 2013, 09:22:49 pm »
When doing the manual sweep the time base changes all the time and probably has been 1 ns when I have measured 300...350 MHz gain. I don't remember it anymore.

When using automatic sweep the time base is the same all the time (1s per division). So in the picture one division is 25 MHz when sweep time is 14 s.
 

Offline ted572

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 397
  • Country: ca
  • Radio Communications Equipment/System Design Engr.
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1984 on: December 25, 2013, 12:44:09 pm »

Did some testing with the new FW, and updated my Bandwidth chart.

There is not much more bandwidth on a 2072 with option 300 Mhz, the entry
of the 2072 , the non A models, dont get 300 Mhz, mine goes to 280 Mhz.
The lack of a internal 50 ohm terminator...

Also got more noise, see picture with only 1 channel, and then enable channel 2,
the difference is clear, on 1 nS the sample rate is to low for two channels.
The performance is worse on 1 nS then on 2 nS.

I did the test with the DSGH key, see option picture.

So the advantage of the new bandwidth option is not big for the non A models.
You are better off with the 200 Mhz version. So use the DSEH key for better performance.
Is there any chance that that the additional noise/fuzz or whatever artifact is evident in the display with 'channel 2 also active' (New2.png)  is due to the that sample rate dropping from 2GHz down to 1GHz?  Probably not, but I just wanted to ask before giving up on the 300MHz BW for the DS2000 (for the non A anyway).

Also, I have been wondering for some time if going from 200MHz to 300MHz BW was detrimental, because it appeared to me that the increased Overshoot (with 300MHz BW) was likely due to the rising response around 115MHz of the 300MHz BW selection.

What condition is shown in picture 'New6' with the FFT?

Thank you for the very interesting and informative BW data you provided on the DS2000.

In conclusion, I understand that you believe now that 200MHz should be as high as we should go for the DS2000 'non A' version?
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 01:08:10 pm by ted572 »
 

Offline Carrington

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1202
  • Country: es
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 01:22:48 pm by Carrington »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
Space Weather.
Lightning & Thunderstorms in Real Time.
 

Offline Carrington

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1202
  • Country: es
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1986 on: December 25, 2013, 01:21:06 pm »
Storage->Traces.
Once than a trace was loaded , this does not resize if you turning off/on statistics. Is this a bug?
Thanks.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 05:40:55 pm by Carrington »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
Space Weather.
Lightning & Thunderstorms in Real Time.
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1987 on: December 25, 2013, 02:26:43 pm »


Is there any chance that that the additional noise/fuzz or whatever artifact is evident in the display with 'channel 2 also active' (New2.png)  is due to the that sample rate dropping from 2GHz down to 1GHz?  Probably not, but I just wanted to ask before giving up on the 300MHz BW for the DS2000 (for the non A anyway).

Also, I have been wondering for some time if going from 200MHz to 300MHz BW was detrimental, because it appeared to me that the increased Overshoot (with 300MHz BW) was likely due to the rising response around 115MHz of the 300MHz BW selection.

What condition is shown in picture 'New6' with the FFT?

Thank you for the very interesting and informative BW data you provided on the DS2000.

In conclusion, I understand that you believe now that 200MHz should be as high as we should go for the DS2000 'non A' version?

I edit my post, the FFT i added because of the improved function of it after the last FW
And yes i think 200 Mhz is the best performance for the non A model, 300 gives some unwanted behavior.

And the differences are to small, 230 versus 280 Mhz...
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1988 on: December 25, 2013, 03:10:39 pm »
I edit my post, the FFT i added because of the improved function of it after the last FW
And yes i think 200 Mhz is the best performance for the non A model, 300 gives some unwanted behavior.

And the differences are to small, 230 versus 280 Mhz...

Makes sense... especially since there was no original DS2303 model. I will only install the license key for it if/when I absolutely need the 1ns/div time base setting.
 

Offline Teneyes

  • Frequent Contributor
  • **
  • Posts: 498
  • Country: ca
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1989 on: December 25, 2013, 05:24:30 pm »
Storage->Traces.
How I can delete a Trace after loading? (Without turning off the scope)
Press Clear on the TOP , Trace is just a graphic overlay of what was saved, good for comparing Old  tests.
IiIiIiIiIi  --  curiosity killed the cat but, satisfaction brought it back
 

Offline mtdoc

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 3575
  • Country: us
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1990 on: December 25, 2013, 06:38:09 pm »

Also got more noise, see picture with only 1 channel, and then enable channel 2,
the difference is clear, on 1 nS the sample rate is to low for two channels.
The performance is worse on 1 nS then on 2 nS.


There is no 200 MHz bandwidth limit available on the new firmware, correct.? Maybe that would eliminate this noise when the higher badwidth is not needed.

I'm still using cyberbet's fimware at 300 Mhz but with 200 MHz bandwidth limit available. No CAN but I have no use for it right now. Still undecided if I should update to the newest firmware....
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 06:40:18 pm by mtdoc »
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1991 on: December 25, 2013, 06:44:15 pm »
I'm still using cyberbet's fimware at 300 Mhz but with 200 MHz bandwidth limit available. No CAN but I have no use for it right now. Still undecided if I should update to the newest firmware....

IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.
 

Offline Carrington

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1202
  • Country: es
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1992 on: December 25, 2013, 06:52:23 pm »
IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.
Strongly agree.
I just want to add, it is not only the BW, and noise, a base time of 1ns is quite useful.
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
Space Weather.
Lightning & Thunderstorms in Real Time.
 

Offline Wim13

  • Regular Contributor
  • *
  • Posts: 241
  • Country: nl
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1993 on: December 25, 2013, 06:59:12 pm »
IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.
Strongly agree.
I just want to add, it is not only the BW, and noise, a base time of 1ns is quite useful.

i dont agree, the 1 nSec, has only 2 samples ( one channel) or 1 samples ( two channel)
so be carefull what you measure... can be not so usefool
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1994 on: December 25, 2013, 07:00:07 pm »
i dont agree, the 1 nSec, has only 4 samples ( one channel) or 2 samples ( 1 channel)

2 samples per div (1 channel) or 1 sample per div (2 channels).

I just want to add, it is not only the BW, and noise, a base time of 1ns is quite useful.

Well, IMO, a 1ns time base with 2 samples per div and a blind time of 99.94% is just moderately useful.
 

Offline Carrington

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1202
  • Country: es
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1995 on: December 25, 2013, 07:04:32 pm »
IMO the improvements in the latest FW are way more valuable than the ~50MHz of extra BW you may be getting with that old FW version.
Strongly agree.
I just want to add, it is not only the BW, and noise, a base time of 1ns is quite useful.

i dont agree, the 1 nSec, has only 2 samples ( one channel) or 1 samples ( two channel)
so be carefull what you measure... can be not so usefool
I don't share your opinion, but I respect it. And with repetitive signals is not so usefool.






« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 07:20:16 pm by Carrington »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
Space Weather.
Lightning & Thunderstorms in Real Time.
 

Offline Carrington

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1202
  • Country: es
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1996 on: December 25, 2013, 07:11:24 pm »
When I save an image with 1ns/div, this happens:



LOL... I found a bug?
Only happens if after pressing RUN/STOP and before saving it the time base is modified and returned to 1ns.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 07:18:04 pm by Carrington »
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
Space Weather.
Lightning & Thunderstorms in Real Time.
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1997 on: December 25, 2013, 07:21:22 pm »
LOL... I found a bug?

It can't really be classified as a bug: you're running an option that is not officially available for the DSO you're running it on. If a DS2302A does the same thing (or if Rigol EVER sells BW updates for other DS2000 models) then it could be called a bug.
 

Offline Carrington

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 1202
  • Country: es
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1998 on: December 25, 2013, 07:27:19 pm »
LOL... I found a bug?

It can't really be classified as a bug: you're running an option that is not officially available for the DSO you're running it on. If a DS2302A does the same thing (or if Rigol EVER sells BW updates for other DS2000 models) then it could be called a bug.
How you call it then?
My English can be pretty bad, so suggestions are welcome. ;)
Space Weather.
Lightning & Thunderstorms in Real Time.
 

Offline marmad

  • Super Contributor
  • ***
  • Posts: 2979
  • Country: aq
    • DaysAlive
Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #1999 on: December 25, 2013, 07:33:43 pm »
How you call it then?

Well, I guess it's technically a bug - but in an unimplemented - and perhaps unfinished? - portion of firmware. So not very relevant.

EDIT: BTW, does not happen when saving via RUU.
« Last Edit: December 25, 2013, 07:39:33 pm by marmad »
 


Share me

Digg  Facebook  SlashDot  Delicious  Technorati  Twitter  Google  Yahoo
Smf