Author Topic: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol  (Read 848903 times)

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Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #25 on: November 03, 2012, 10:50:16 pm »
unfortunately DS1052E has. from 50Mhz to 100MHz.
Sorry, Mecha - but the DS1052E is no competitor to this scope at all. I've used that scope - and this one is at least 200% better - not just the 60% more that it costs. The closest competition is the Agilent DSO-X 2002a - which costs 25% more but has way smaller memory, way fewer triggers, etc, etc.

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bandwidth is the main feature. others are mostly bells and whistles that follow. YMMV.
I guess for you - certainly not for me (and others, I'm sure). I do the majority of my work at <=50MHz - and having 'bells and whistles' like 9 triggers, 14MPt, 50k wfrm/s, etc, are going to save me time in design and debugging. But if amount of $ per MHz of BW is your bottom line, then, yes, this scope is not for you.

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if rigol want this model to go boom, they should leakout some informations
Well, it is interesting that all three scopes in the DS2000 line are 2GSa/s  ;)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 10:54:42 pm by marmad »
 

Offline A Hellene

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2012, 11:06:27 pm »
Very nicely done, Mark! Thank you for the review!

Had I not already got the DS1052, I would not hesitate to lay my hands on a brand new DS2072! But, then again, how could I have earned my specific knowledge the '1052 hacking gave me?

Now, on the upgradability issue of the 'options' and the device bandwidth, it is my firm belief that it is absolutely feasible. It is just a matter of time to disassemble the unit (in order to create the schematics) and of a thorough firmware investigation.

I am very optimistic on this for the reasons I have already stated, and because of a revealing DS4000 glitch, where the units that might lose their model-specific data (their serial number and model) will default to 500 MHz DS405x devices, even though they were badged and sold as 100 MHz DS401x ones!

But, who's got the amounts of time needed for such a reverse engineering project...


-George
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 11:08:55 pm by A Hellene »
Hi! This is George; and I am three and a half years old!
(This was one of my latest realisations, now in my early fifties!...)
 

Offline EEVblog

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2012, 11:11:20 pm »
It's a nice scope but Dave’s last video showed the main problem with the DS2072 and that is no upgrade path for Bandwidth.  70MHz is just too low for most people!  I have uses on a monthly basis that push my needs up to the 150Mhz region and I suspect that many other eevblogers also have need of BW higher than 70Mhz.

Most scopes on the market do not have software upgradable bandwidth. Are we now suddenly at the point that a scope not having software upgradable bandwidth is a fail?
It seems that people either complain about a scope having software bandwidth upgrade, or they complain about not having it!  ::)
If you want the higher bandwidth then just buy it. It's not like you save any money buy buying it later, in fact you probably ultimately pay more for the software upgrade.

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I also really dislike all those trial features disappearing just as you get use to them.

How is that any different to any other software trial license before?
Just because they pre-install them for you?

Dave.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2012, 11:13:44 pm »
Very nicely done, Mark! Thank you for the review!
Thanks, George - and thanks for the info on the DS4000 glitch - I hadn't heard about that!

I don't particularly want to void my warranty at this time (especially since Dave did a teardown - and the product is still reasonably new to market that some fault could develop) but I do wonder what protections Rigol has instituted to prevent debuggers from creating key generators for the options.

BTW, I heard privately from someone that their trial options (which were expired by the Self-Cal bug) mysteriously re-installed themselves later  :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2012, 11:17:20 pm by marmad »
 

Offline andyturk

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2012, 11:42:39 pm »
How is that any different to any other software trial license before?
Just because they pre-install them for you?

Dave.
Maybe it's not. But having these features enabled by license keys disturbs the notion that what you're paying for is quality components and construction. That's why so many EEVBlog readers are fascinated by teardown videos--they want to see what's inside.

Imagine if one of the licensed features was a lower noise floor. If I thought the manufacturer used better components in the higher spec model, I might pay up and buy it. But if I knew they were simply adding pseudorandom noise to the unlicensed instruments, then I'd probably stay way entirely.
 

Offline Salas

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2012, 11:51:11 pm »
A test of its real bandwidth extension would be interesting.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #31 on: November 04, 2012, 12:12:09 am »
Imagine if one of the licensed features was a lower noise floor. If I thought the manufacturer used better components in the higher spec model, I might pay up and buy it. But if I knew they were simply adding pseudorandom noise to the unlicensed instruments, then I'd probably stay way entirely.

Granted it's not so nice knowing that there is locked potential you can't use in a device you own (unless you pay more later)- but if it helps manufacturers defray research and development (or build) costs of newer and better scopes, I think it's fine. And if you look at quality and features you get per $ of your money - first from the Agilent X series - and now from these Rigol scopes - you have to conclude that the strategy is working.
 

Offline tlu

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #32 on: November 04, 2012, 12:25:11 am »
I've just ordered one of these and judging by the specs alone it's worth the price. Most hobbyist and new comers to the electronics field would not need to go over 50Mhz as mermad pointed out. Seeing how similar the different BW models for the 2000 series, we can deduce it again maybe a s oftware mod for the BW rather then a HW one.

The trial options is super great. It gives you a chance to try before you buy. Who can say no to that? I'm looking forward until my arrives. Mermad, could you do another video exploring more of this Scopes  features?
 

Offline Spikee

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #33 on: November 04, 2012, 02:31:44 am »
How does it compare to the Agilent 2000x series ?
Is it really better. If so ... i should buy me another rigol scope.
Freelance electronics design service, Small batch assembly, Firmware / WEB / APP development. In Shenzhen China
 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #34 on: November 04, 2012, 11:23:38 am »
Here are the results of a quick test I did measuring the Rigol DS2072 waveform update rates at all timebase settings and memory depths (also attached in Excel format). If you compare these to the Agilent 2000X series published rates, it's obvious the Agilent is the clear winner - although it doesn't have anything close to the possible memory depths.

Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. I took best-case rate when it was fluctuating:

14kPts 140kPts 1.4MPts 14MPts 56MPts
5ns 15,000 13,150 1,412 142 36
10ns 9,400 9,400 1,412 142 36
20ns 50,012 13,515 1,416 142 36
50ns 25,003 13,515 1,416 142 36
100ns 17,859 13,159 1,412 142 36
200ns 11,365 11,360 1,408 142 36
500ns 5,434 5,435 1,336 142 36
1us 5,263 2,890 1,126 139 35
2us 5,054 1,506 846 133 35
5us 4,425 1,176 733 130 35
10us 3,789 1,157 720 130 35
20us 2,945 992 442 117 34
50us 1,326 639 414 114 34
100us 683 421 306 94 32
200us 347 245 200 69 28
500us 140 109 97 39 21
1ms 70 56 52 29 15
2ms 35 29 27 19 10
5ms ~14 ~13 ~11 ~9 ~6
10ms ~7 ~6 ~6 ~5 ~3
20ms ~4 ~4 ~3 ~3 ~2
50ms ~2 ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1
100ms  ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1
« Last Edit: January 01, 2013, 03:42:50 pm by marmad »
 

Offline EV

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #35 on: November 04, 2012, 11:32:22 am »
I also got them back, but next day they ware gone and the list was totally empty.

Also: I can confirm a good 'bug' in the current firmware - it seems the trial options have come back from the dead on my scope - counting down again from the initial trial minutes. Whether this is behavior which will continue indefinitely is - as you might imagine - intensely interesting. :)
« Last Edit: July 03, 2013, 04:31:15 pm by EV »
 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #36 on: November 04, 2012, 11:35:16 am »
I also got them back, but next day they ware gone and the list was totally empty.

Interesting. You mean they just jumped from some higher number (e.g. 1800) to zero all of a sudden? Well, I will keep an eye on them; I hadn't used the scope for a few days until last night - and then they were back - and still there counting down today.
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 11:41:22 am by marmad »
 

Offline KedasProbe

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2012, 11:47:40 am »
Here are the results of a quick test I did measuring the Rigol DS2072 waveform update rates at all timebase settings and memory depths (also attached in Excel format)
How did you measure this, or was is displayed on the screen?
Not everything that counts can be measured. Not everything that can be measured counts.
[W. Bruce Cameron]
 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2012, 11:59:14 am »
How did you measure this, or was is displayed on the screen?
Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. And I'll add this to the above post.
 

Offline EV

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2012, 12:20:27 pm »
No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

Interesting. You mean they just jumped from some higher number (e.g. 1800) to zero all of a sudden?

Here are 2 pictures more about RC-filters. Components are same as earlier. The horisontal scale is now 100 kHz per division. Sweep is from 1 Hz to 1 MHz in 10 seconds. There is no external trigger.

 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2012, 12:37:40 pm »
No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

And how did you resolve it? Firmware update?

Edit: Or is that the default behavior when the trial options are gone?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2012, 12:41:39 pm by marmad »
 

Offline EV

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2012, 12:42:37 pm »
With money! I have bought the options.

No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

And how did you resolve it? Firmware update?
 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2012, 12:45:47 pm »
With money! I have bought the options.

Yes, you mentioned that before - but that doesn't change the fact that there was a bug in the firmware which was making the scope options act strangely. I'm not sure I would pay for options until I knew that they would operate correctly continuously.
 

Offline EV

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2012, 01:02:19 pm »
I have the original firmware (first version). This xy bug das not bother me. The time base bug, about what Dave tells, is much worse in this new firmware . Where can I get a new firmware, which is tested works ok? I don't want this which Dave installed.

I have not found any problems with these official options until now.

With money! I have bought the options.

Yes, you mentioned that before - but that doesn't change the fact that there was a bug in the firmware which was making the scope options act strangely. I'm not sure I would pay for options until I knew that they would operate correctly continuously.
 

Offline EV

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2012, 01:04:43 pm »
Edit: Or is that the default behavior when the trial options are gone?

Propably it is so!
 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2012, 01:19:12 pm »
Where can I get a new firmware, which is tested works ok? I don't want this which Dave installed.
I don't think there is any official new version yet. I have the same as yours - with two bugs that I know of: the XY reversal - and the cancelling of trial options during self-calibration. You can get a second free trial license from Rigol if you lose the first through self-cal - but I doubt they'll give you a third, then fourth, etc, etc   :)

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I have not found any problems with these official options until now.
Have you tried running a self-calibration since installing the official options?
 

Offline EV

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2012, 01:25:06 pm »
Have you tried running a self-calibration since installing the official options?

No, but it is not a big problem. The options can be reinstalled, if they are lost.
 

Offline tlu

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2012, 01:28:20 pm »
Quote
Also: I can confirm a good 'bug' in the current firmware - it seems the trial options have come back from the dead on my scope - counting down again from the initial trial minutes. Whether this is behavior which will continue indefinitely is - as you might imagine - intensely interesting. :) 

Very interesting. Please do continue to monitor this and hopefully this is a permanent "good bug". This would make the dso even more of a bargain  ;D.

I hope mine comes in sometimes next week. I'm super excited to get fingers on it.
 

Offline marmad

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2012, 01:30:41 pm »
No, but it is not a big problem. The options can be reinstalled, if they are lost.

Yes, I understand; same serial number plus license code. I was just curious if the bug affected all installed options - or just the trial ones. I'm guessing that it's just the trial ones - time and/or protection data being overwritten.
 

Offline tlu

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Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
« Reply #49 on: November 04, 2012, 01:36:12 pm »
Quote
Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. I took best-case rate when it was fluctuating:

The 1Mhz square wave, is that from the test signal of the scope itself or an external signal from an AWG?
 


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