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Products => Test Equipment => Topic started by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 12:30:18 pm

Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 12:30:18 pm
Here are my first impressions and review of the Rigol DS2072 (plus added Sample Rate, Segment Number, Fastest Update Rates, 56MPt Acquistion Time Table, FFT Ranges, and High Res Bandwidths)

Firmware bugs / instructions for locating firmware version number / FW download links / instructions for upgrading/downgrading in a following post below (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684)

DS2000 hacks and keygens (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/)


Sorry about the image quality, but I still don't have an HD camera. Hopefully, now that I've finally gotten a DSO I want to keep, perhaps it can be next on my list of purchases  ;)

Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gAY1GQEjrfc#)

Edit: A couple of things I forgot to mention in the review:

First - to address two things which Dave mentioned as annoyances in his 'Playing Around' video:
 1)  The buttons which are angled at the top - This didn't bother me at all; I've only hit Run/Stop accidentally one time so I guess I rest my hand in a slightly different way then Dave.
 2)  The dim LED light on the Channel/Decode select buttons - Dave is correct about this; the LEDs are rather dim but somehow my eyes became accustomed to spotting the difference between them on or off - and then I never thought about it again.

Secondly - to mention one more very clever detail that Rigol added that I (in my limited experience with DSOs) haven't seen before - the 'Clear' button (right alongside 'Auto, 'Run/Stop' and 'Single'. Given the amount of info you can jam on the screen in terms of Math, Reference waves, recalled traces, tables, graphs and decode information, it's great to have a big accessible button devoted to nothing but wiping the screen.

Edit2: I just wanted to mention that some of the features I thought were great might be SOP on higher-end DSOs - but since I'm late getting into DSOs (just been using analog scopes all my life) my review is from the perspective of someone new to the game - and only familiar with the lower cost models.

Also, I don't have the required equipment (or some of the specialized knowledge) to run serious bandwidth tests or to check channel separation, timebase accuracy, etc. I will leave those things to others. From my experience with Rigol so far, although they might not be the most open and responsive company to their customers, they appear to deliver what they advertise - so unless/until I hear otherwise, I will give them the benefit of the doubt and believe that the product is operating within it's published specs. As far as I can tell (noise level, etc) everything appears very good.

Edit3: Rigol DS2000 series - sample rate for each selectable sample length:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49232)


Edit4: Rigol DS2000 series - maximum number of segments which can be recorded with each sample length:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49220)


Edit5: Rigol DS2000 series - acquisition time when using full 56MPt sample length:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=49321)


Edit6: Rigol DS2000 series - comparing sample rates and waveform update rates of 56M vs AUTO/14MB at lower time base settings:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=70483)


Edit7: Rigol DS2000 series - waveform update rates of the DS2000 @ 14kPts/AUTO (single / dual channel - vectors / dots) - measured using a 1MHz sine wave input to channel 1.

(Chart has been removed until new one can be developed for latest FW. Rigol has substantially improved many rates at lower time base settings.)


Edit8: Rigol DS2000 series - FFT range at each time base setting (thanks to Teneyes):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=54595)


Edit9: Rigol DS2000 series - Bandwidths of DSO when in High Res mode:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=68253)


Edit10: To take advantage of the power of the scope, I started writing software for it (and created a new thread for downloads (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/)). Attached is an example (sweep.gif) of something easy to create with the new UltraVision DSOs from Rigol: an animation. It can change the way we communicate captured oscilloscope data to each other.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on October 30, 2012, 02:04:34 pm
Thanks for the review!  It was great to see it in action and a few of the features like the graphing and more complex waveform test that really stand out.  The testing of its waveform capture rate was also really interesting, to find its "sweet spot" and see how it scaled so linearly with memory depth.  Overall a very useful review.

Jacob
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 02:14:25 pm
Method to Check FW Ver# or Upgrade/Downgrade FW plus FW Links (bottom of post)
Known Firmware Bugs/Issues (of the last two firmware releases / red indicates latest FW version available)

2) The way the scope handles intensity grading at time bases <= 50ns/div when two channels are enabled with Normal Sweep is not the same as all other modes - it feels incongruous and incorrect.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

14) When the RS-232 baud rate is set to AUTO 57600, it is incorrect. When set to USER 57600, it operates correctly.
[FW v.01.01.00.02]

15) Bus decoding does not decode the full ASCII set. Missing characters:[ . , : ; - _ ! $ % & / ( ) = ? ] - everything between square brackets (except spaces).
[FW v.01.01.00.02]

16) ANTI-ALIASING does not prevent waveform aliasing to any degree, although it can remove some image aliasing (e.g. moire patterns) under certain conditions.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

17) There is a visible offset from center position when using AC-coupled Triggers (including filtered LF and HF) at lower time bases (<= 2us/div), as well as serious jitter with certain settings.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

18) There is a bug when using DOTS mode with AUTO/14M/56M memory depths @ >= 5us/div. It affects the waveform update rate (much reduced) - and can also affect the visible display of the waveform.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

19) When in HighRes mode and reading display memory from the DSO with SCPI, if the time base is <= 20us, the DSO returns 1398 bytes instead of 1400.
[FW v.01.01.00.02 / FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

20) When reading display memory with SCPI while the DSO is STOPped and zooming out, the DSO returns (correctly) a decreasing number of display memory bytes until < 6, and then it incorrectly starts sending 1400 bytes every time (a nonsense waveform) instead of 2 (a single line).
[FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

21) Log() function in MATH -> Advanced -> Expression doesn't work.
[FW v.02.01.00.03]

22) All SCPI commands related to CAN triggering appear to be missing in the latest FW.
[FW v.02.01.00.03 / FW v.03.00.01.03]

=====================================

To get the full firmware version info from the DSO, follow these instructions:

Go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger.
While keeping the Trigger menu open, you are going to use the 6th and 7th right-side menu buttons as follows:
Press the [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] buttons one after another quickly.
Then check additional info under System -> System Info.
You should see something like:

Software version: 00.01.01.00.02
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

If you DON'T see this detailed info = start again, and press those 4 buttons faster.

To escape from this mode, press again [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] while inside Trigger menu
- or reboot the scope.

=====================================

Firmware links:

FW#00.00.01.00.05 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-00_01_00_05.7z)

FW#00.01.00.00.03 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-01_00_00_03.7z)

FW#00.01.01.00.02 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-01_01_00_02.7z)

FW#00.02.01.00.03 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-02_01_00_03.7z)

FW#00.03.00.01.03 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-03_00_01_03.7z)

FW#00.03.01.00.04 (http://www.daysalive.com/riglol/DS2000-03_01_00_04.7z)

=====================================

For those planning to upgrade/downgrade firmware:

Do the upgrade ONLY during bootup - not from the GUI/Menus/OS asking for file/etc. or you might lock up the scope - losing any trial options you have remaining - and requiring you to do the upgrade again anyway using the method listed below:

You do this by using two hands when booting up - one thumb on the 'Power On' switch - one thumb on the 'Help' button. When you press 'Power On', all of the scope LEDs will light for ONE SECOND - during that brief period, you must PRESS AND LET GO of the 'Help' button. It can be a little tricky, but if it works, bootup will stop before the Rigol logo with the 'SINGLE' button lit (if it doesn't, turn off power and try again until you get it). Then insert the USB stick with the file on it. The CH1 LED will flash as the DSO loads the file.

Once updating is finished, several of the LEDs will light up - and all flashing, etc. will stop. That means it's finished, so you can remove the USB stick and reboot - but please take notice of the following:

Note: Rigol has changed the the structure of unit settings stored in FRAM, so if you have upgraded/downgraded between the major versions of v.01 & v.02 (i.e. v.01.XX.XX.XX to v.02.XX.XX.XX - or vice-versa), it's a good idea to hold in the left-menu F6 button (sixth gray button down on left side of LCD) during the first reboot after loading (to clear FRAM) - otherwise the DSO can hang when switching between various menu items.

Finally, check your firmware version using the method listed above.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: digsys on October 30, 2012, 03:01:03 pm
I am still thinking of a Rigol 2000 or higher as a second scope (have the OWON SDS7102), mainly for the wfs/s
The 2 features I'd miss (unless I hack it) are battery backup and VGA op, which I depend on.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 03:18:12 pm
Thanks for the review!  It was great to see it in action and a few of the features like the graphing and more complex waveform test that really stand out.  The testing of its waveform capture rate was also really interesting, to find its "sweet spot" and see how it scaled so linearly with memory depth.  Overall a very useful review.

Jacob

Thanks Jacob.

IMO, there is nothing about this DSO that says 'Made in China' - except the silk-screened legend on the back  ;D   From the layout of the screen and front panel - to the UI design and feature selection - to the faint rumble of the cooling fan- it looks and feels 100% like a quality-made Western product. Given this - and it's massive feature list - I don't see anything else currently on the market that gives you anywhere close to the bang-per-buck.

I don't think anyone who has used the Rigol 1000 series or the Owon SDS series or the Hantek DSO5000 series - and then tried this scope - could possibly argue against the vast difference in using this scope.

The 2 features I'd miss (unless I hack it) are battery backup and VGA op, which I depend on.

Yes, I can understand the need for occasional portability.  I have a battery-powered Tektronix 212 analog scope for portable work - and although it's BW is small, it's double-insulated and can do floating measurements up to 600V above ground.

As far as the VGA option goes - I have to say it was one of those features (with the Owon) that was better in theory than in actual practice. Seeing a blown-up 800x600 image on a modern high-res LCD display looked vaguely video-arcadish - although for teaching purposes (i.e. projection) it seems necessary.

For me, better than VGA-out would be good software which extracts the waveform data and displays it in a window on a high-res screen. I haven't tried this yet, but the DS2000 seems much faster at transferring data off-scope, so I'm hoping to write efficient software which will do just this.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: drieg on October 30, 2012, 04:04:33 pm
Great review, thanks!  ;)
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 04:32:51 pm
Great review, thanks!  ;)

Thank you - for the great service and after-sales support with my questions and comments. I'm just happy that I could finally make a overwhelmingly positive review of a DSO - it would have been terrible to be disappointed a fourth time in a row  ;D
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Mechatrommer on October 30, 2012, 04:39:10 pm
ds2072 $899 http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2072.html)
ds2202 $1835 http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2202.html (http://www.batronix.com/shop/oscilloscopes/Rigol-DS2202.html)
thats more than doubled the price. hmmm, i dont know what caught mr drieg into here after all this while, hmmm.
i'm not sure i can afford the 2072 unless maybe some interesting event occurs ::)
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 05:04:28 pm
To new or prospective owners of the DS2000 wondering about 'restarting' trial options:or other hacks: check the following thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/sniffing-the-rigol's-internal-i2c-bus/)
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: AndyC_772 on October 30, 2012, 05:45:30 pm
I am still thinking of a Rigol 2000 or higher as a second scope (have the OWON SDS7102), mainly for the wfs/s
The 2 features I'd miss (unless I hack it) are battery backup and VGA op, which I depend on.
Have you looked at the 4000 series? They have VGA output on the back.

I use the VGA port on my Tek all the time - I have a 17" LCD on my bench which is much bigger and clearer than the scope's own built-in display.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 06:04:54 pm
The 2 features I'd miss (unless I hack it) are battery backup...

Just out of curiosity, I checked the published power specs:

Owon SDS7000/8000 series:<24W
Hantek DSO5000 series:<30W
Rigol DS1000 series:<50W
Rigol DS2000 series:<50W
Agilent DSOX2000 series:<100W
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Mechatrommer on October 30, 2012, 06:24:32 pm
Did you mean double the current price of the DS1052E?
no i mean double the price of the ds2202 200MHz scope. i know this color grading, spi serial capable dso, big screen etc is a different game compared to the 1052e. i was wondering what are the differences other than price between 2072 and 2202? is there hardware difference? they are all 2GSps.
no more :KEY:LOCK nonsense.
yeah i'll keep working around on that nonsense limit :P but not so frequently. i can see your work more seriously on arbitrary waves. with that nice color grading high wf/s rate, i wonder if it can do some freq domain like plot? like this tektroniks tds2024?
Analysis of Frequency Response of Filters using Sweep Signal - by Gautam (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xb3cLtAtE1s#)
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: robrenz on October 30, 2012, 06:56:33 pm
arbitrary waves. with that nice color grading high wf/s rate, i wonder if it can do some freq domain like plot? like this tektroniks tds2024?

If I am understanding that video correctly (probably not  :-[) you can do the same thing on your 1052E.  He just matched the sweep generator sweep time to the scope full screen sweep time. and used external trigger from the sweep gen to trigger the scope. It is only a frequency domain plot because he correlated the sweep generator frequency sweep time to the horizontal time per division of the scope.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 30, 2012, 07:25:43 pm
no i mean double the price of the ds2202 200MHz scope.
Yes, the price does seem to go up rather dramatically. I can think of three possible reasons:
1) They are undercharging for the DS2072 to get a foothold with the scope in the market.
2) They are hoping to make as much as possible from the higher BW scopes before a hack leaks out and siphons off part of that market share.
3) There is a REAL difference inside (least likely).

Quote
i wonder if it can do some freq domain like plot? like this tektroniks tds2024?
I'll try to look into that tomorrow.

He just matched the sweep generator sweep time to the scope full screen sweep time. and used external trigger from the sweep gen to trigger the scope.
I'm not sure which part you're talking about: the Measurement part (using a logarithmic sweep) - or - the SCPI part (using a noise signal)?
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: tlu on October 30, 2012, 07:35:02 pm
Hi Marmad,

Excellent review once again. Do you think it is worth the extra $300 to get the 100Mhz model? I'm about to pull the trigger on this unit.

tlu
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: digsys on October 30, 2012, 09:47:36 pm
Quote from: AndyC
Have you looked at the 4000 series? They have VGA output on the back.
I use the VGA port on my Tek all the time - I have a 17" LCD on my bench which is much bigger and clearer than the scope's own built-in display.
Actually I did, AND they also have a Battery option !! Definitely Interesting. Prices get a bit high at this end.

Quote from: marmand
For me, better than VGA-out would be good software which extracts the waveform data and displays it in a window on a high-res screen. I haven't tried this yet, but the DS2000 seems much faster at transferring data off-scope, so I'm hoping to write efficient software which will do just this.
Never had good experience with data ports, for speed. If you get to try it, can you post your findings?
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: robrenz on October 31, 2012, 01:43:08 am
Quote
i wonder if it can do some freq domain like plot? like this tektroniks tds2024?
I'll try to look into that tomorrow.

He just matched the sweep generator sweep time to the scope full screen sweep time. and used external trigger from the sweep gen to trigger the scope.
I'm not sure which part you're talking about: the Measurement part (using a logarithmic sweep) - or - the SCPI part (using a noise signal)?

I was talking about the video that Mechatrommer posted here. AFIK the 1052E can do the exact same thing.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Mechatrommer on October 31, 2012, 05:47:45 am
yes probably 1052e can do, but i never saw it can do a nice color grading like that like agilent infinity vision did too. may be in PC software doable with many many times of capture.
@rob, yes i'm aware of the external trigger, but since i never do it i'm quite sceptic what kind of trigger the fg produced, is it the usual "synch out" signal or a pulse at each frequency sweep, gotta figure that one later out my self ;) but as i said, i doubt 1052e can do the nice color grade like that.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: marmad on October 31, 2012, 11:19:48 am
is it the usual "synch out" signal or a pulse at each frequency sweep, gotta figure that one later out my self ;)

Just watched it... the trigger out from the AWG is a single pulse at the start of the sweep - that's why he set the scopes timebase*div to be exactly equal to the length of the sweep. Each time the sweep restarts it will trigger the scope - which will then collect another batch of sample points during the sweep time and add it to the screen.

Quote
but as i said, i doubt 1052e can do the nice color grade like that.

He does mention in the video that they just set persistence to 5 seconds; it looks like you might be able to do it on almost any scope.
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: Mechatrommer on October 31, 2012, 12:04:18 pm
He does mention in the video that they just set persistence to 5 seconds; it looks like you might be able to do it on almost any scope.
persistence to 5 seconds? not with 1052e ;) it only none or infinite. we'll get color "flat" not color "grade" i can do it in software though but slow. ok enough for today's lesson thanks, back to topic everybody :P
Title: Re: First Impressions and Review of the Rigol DS2072 / DS2000 series DSO
Post by: robrenz on October 31, 2012, 12:57:22 pm
One more thing before back to topic.  In that application of looking at the filter response, the envelope is all that matters anyway.  Digital phosphor like effects within the envelope are irrelevant.  I did a slow sine modulation, 1 cycle 5 seconds period of of a 1khz sinewave carrier on the 1052E and it shows the envelope nicely.  Ok Mecha I am done now  :-*
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 03, 2012, 05:45:24 pm
I try to attach two pictures:

R = 4.7 kOhm, C = 1 nF and 1 horisontal division is 10 kHz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Dread on November 03, 2012, 07:11:22 pm
It's a nice scope but Dave’s last video showed the main problem with the DS2072 and that is no upgrade path for Bandwidth.  70MHz is just too low for most people!  I have uses on a monthly basis that push my needs up to the 150Mhz region and I suspect that many other eevblogers also have need of BW higher than 70Mhz.   I also really dislike all those trial features disappearing just as you get use to them.  Overall I suspect very few 2000 series owners really end up making an $850 purchase but instead end up spending much more money, that low price is just bait to get you in the door, after that I suspect most people end up spending between $1200 to the $2000 plus by time they get finished.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 03, 2012, 08:25:51 pm
It's a nice scope but Dave’s last video showed the main problem with the DS2072 and that is no upgrade path for Bandwidth.
1) Most scopes don't have upgradeable BW.
2) Bandwidth is just one feature in the assortment of features which make a scope useful for someone.
3) Even so, as mentioned already more than once on this blog,  there will be 100M and 200M BW upgrade options available eventually for the DS2000.

Quote
I also really dislike all those trial features disappearing just as you get use to them.
You would prefer that they didn't give you any free time with the trial options? Even without buying the option package for additional triggers, this scope has 9 built-in triggers compared to 4 on the Agilent 2000X or Owon SDS. Even without paying for the 56M of memory, this scope already has 14M.

I also noticed elsewhere that you wrote about the DS2000:

What no Zoom at all?  Am I missing something here?  I can Zoom with my cheap scope I would expect this one to do that easily.
In fact, the scope has a very nice zoom - much better then the one on the Owon.

I don't know, Dread, you seem to be on a mission to denigrate this scope - and I'm not quite sure why. Maybe to convince yourself that you made the right choice with a recent DSO purchase? All I can say is, as someone who has owned both an SDS scope and this one - they are not even in the same league.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Mechatrommer on November 03, 2012, 10:17:32 pm
1) Most scopes don't have upgradeable BW.
unfortunately DS1052E has. from 50Mhz to 100MHz. so it is a hope the 2000X also has. if rigol want this model to go boom, they should leakout some informations ;)
2) Bandwidth is just one feature in the assortment of features which make a scope useful for someone.
bandwidth is the main feature. others are mostly bells and whistles that follow. YMMV.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 03, 2012, 10:50:16 pm
unfortunately DS1052E has. from 50Mhz to 100MHz.
Sorry, Mecha - but the DS1052E is no competitor to this scope at all. I've used that scope - and this one is at least 200% better - not just the 60% more that it costs. The closest competition is the Agilent DSO-X 2002a - which costs 25% more but has way smaller memory, way fewer triggers, etc, etc.

Quote
bandwidth is the main feature. others are mostly bells and whistles that follow. YMMV.
I guess for you - certainly not for me (and others, I'm sure). I do the majority of my work at <=50MHz - and having 'bells and whistles' like 9 triggers, 14MPt, 50k wfrm/s, etc, are going to save me time in design and debugging. But if amount of $ per MHz of BW is your bottom line, then, yes, this scope is not for you.

Quote
if rigol want this model to go boom, they should leakout some informations
Well, it is interesting that all three scopes in the DS2000 line are 2GSa/s  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: A Hellene on November 03, 2012, 11:06:27 pm
Very nicely done, Mark! Thank you for the review!

Had I not already got the DS1052, I would not hesitate to lay my hands on a brand new DS2072! But, then again, how could I have earned my specific knowledge the '1052 hacking gave me?

Now, on the upgradability issue of the 'options' and the device bandwidth, it is my firm belief that it is absolutely feasible. It is just a matter of time to disassemble the unit (in order to create the schematics) and of a thorough firmware investigation.

I am very optimistic on this for the reasons I have already stated (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/msg148867/#msg148867), and because of a revealing DS4000 glitch (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds4014-decided-it-would-be-more-fun-to-be-a-ds4054/), where the units that might lose their model-specific data (their serial number and model) will default to 500 MHz DS405x devices, even though they were badged and sold as 100 MHz DS401x ones!

But, who's got the amounts of time needed for such a reverse engineering project...


-George
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on November 03, 2012, 11:11:20 pm
It's a nice scope but Dave’s last video showed the main problem with the DS2072 and that is no upgrade path for Bandwidth.  70MHz is just too low for most people!  I have uses on a monthly basis that push my needs up to the 150Mhz region and I suspect that many other eevblogers also have need of BW higher than 70Mhz.

Most scopes on the market do not have software upgradable bandwidth. Are we now suddenly at the point that a scope not having software upgradable bandwidth is a fail?
It seems that people either complain about a scope having software bandwidth upgrade, or they complain about not having it!  ::)
If you want the higher bandwidth then just buy it. It's not like you save any money buy buying it later, in fact you probably ultimately pay more for the software upgrade.

Quote
I also really dislike all those trial features disappearing just as you get use to them.

How is that any different to any other software trial license before?
Just because they pre-install them for you?

Dave.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 03, 2012, 11:13:44 pm
Very nicely done, Mark! Thank you for the review!
Thanks, George - and thanks for the info on the DS4000 glitch - I hadn't heard about that!

I don't particularly want to void my warranty at this time (especially since Dave did a teardown - and the product is still reasonably new to market that some fault could develop) but I do wonder what protections Rigol has instituted to prevent debuggers from creating key generators for the options.

BTW, I heard privately from someone that their trial options (which were expired by the Self-Cal bug) mysteriously re-installed themselves later  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andyturk on November 03, 2012, 11:42:39 pm
How is that any different to any other software trial license before?
Just because they pre-install them for you?

Dave.
Maybe it's not. But having these features enabled by license keys disturbs the notion that what you're paying for is quality components and construction. That's why so many EEVBlog readers are fascinated by teardown videos--they want to see what's inside.

Imagine if one of the licensed features was a lower noise floor. If I thought the manufacturer used better components in the higher spec model, I might pay up and buy it. But if I knew they were simply adding pseudorandom noise to the unlicensed instruments, then I'd probably stay way entirely.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on November 03, 2012, 11:51:11 pm
A test of its real bandwidth extension would be interesting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 12:12:09 am
Imagine if one of the licensed features was a lower noise floor. If I thought the manufacturer used better components in the higher spec model, I might pay up and buy it. But if I knew they were simply adding pseudorandom noise to the unlicensed instruments, then I'd probably stay way entirely.

Granted it's not so nice knowing that there is locked potential you can't use in a device you own (unless you pay more later)- but if it helps manufacturers defray research and development (or build) costs of newer and better scopes, I think it's fine. And if you look at quality and features you get per $ of your money - first from the Agilent X series - and now from these Rigol scopes - you have to conclude that the strategy is working.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 04, 2012, 12:25:11 am
I've just ordered one of these and judging by the specs alone it's worth the price. Most hobbyist and new comers to the electronics field would not need to go over 50Mhz as mermad pointed out. Seeing how similar the different BW models for the 2000 series, we can deduce it again maybe a s oftware mod for the BW rather then a HW one.

The trial options is super great. It gives you a chance to try before you buy. Who can say no to that? I'm looking forward until my arrives. Mermad, could you do another video exploring more of this Scopes  features?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Spikee on November 04, 2012, 02:31:44 am
How does it compare to the Agilent 2000x series ?
Is it really better. If so ... i should buy me another rigol scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 11:23:38 am
Here are the results of a quick test I did measuring the Rigol DS2072 waveform update rates at all timebase settings and memory depths (also attached in Excel format). If you compare these to the Agilent 2000X series published rates, it's obvious the Agilent is the clear winner - although it doesn't have anything close to the possible memory depths.

Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. I took best-case rate when it was fluctuating:

14kPts 140kPts 1.4MPts 14MPts 56MPts
5ns 15,000 13,150 1,412 142 36
10ns 9,400 9,400 1,412 142 36
20ns 50,012 13,515 1,416 142 36
50ns 25,003 13,515 1,416 142 36
100ns 17,859 13,159 1,412 142 36
200ns 11,365 11,360 1,408 142 36
500ns 5,434 5,435 1,336 142 36
1us 5,263 2,890 1,126 139 35
2us 5,054 1,506 846 133 35
5us 4,425 1,176 733 130 35
10us 3,789 1,157 720 130 35
20us 2,945 992 442 117 34
50us 1,326 639 414 114 34
100us 683 421 306 94 32
200us 347 245 200 69 28
500us 140 109 97 39 21
1ms 70 56 52 29 15
2ms 35 29 27 19 10
5ms ~14 ~13 ~11 ~9 ~6
10ms ~7 ~6 ~6 ~5 ~3
20ms ~4 ~4 ~3 ~3 ~2
50ms ~2 ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1
100ms  ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1 ~1
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 11:32:22 am
I also got them back, but next day they ware gone and the list was totally empty.

Also: I can confirm a good 'bug' in the current firmware - it seems the trial options have come back from the dead on my scope - counting down again from the initial trial minutes. Whether this is behavior which will continue indefinitely is - as you might imagine - intensely interesting. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 11:35:16 am
I also got them back, but next day they ware gone and the list was totally empty.

Interesting. You mean they just jumped from some higher number (e.g. 1800) to zero all of a sudden? Well, I will keep an eye on them; I hadn't used the scope for a few days until last night - and then they were back - and still there counting down today.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: KedasProbe on November 04, 2012, 11:47:40 am
Here are the results of a quick test I did measuring the Rigol DS2072 waveform update rates at all timebase settings and memory depths (also attached in Excel format)
How did you measure this, or was is displayed on the screen?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 11:59:14 am
How did you measure this, or was is displayed on the screen?
Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. And I'll add this to the above post.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 12:20:27 pm
No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

Interesting. You mean they just jumped from some higher number (e.g. 1800) to zero all of a sudden?

Here are 2 pictures more about RC-filters. Components are same as earlier. The horisontal scale is now 100 kHz per division. Sweep is from 1 Hz to 1 MHz in 10 seconds. There is no external trigger.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 12:37:40 pm
No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

And how did you resolve it? Firmware update?

Edit: Or is that the default behavior when the trial options are gone?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 12:42:37 pm
With money! I have bought the options.

No, the option list was totally empty. There was also no option list when starting the scope.

And how did you resolve it? Firmware update?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 12:45:47 pm
With money! I have bought the options.

Yes, you mentioned that before - but that doesn't change the fact that there was a bug in the firmware which was making the scope options act strangely. I'm not sure I would pay for options until I knew that they would operate correctly continuously.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 01:02:19 pm
I have the original firmware (first version). This xy bug das not bother me. The time base bug, about what Dave tells, is much worse in this new firmware . Where can I get a new firmware, which is tested works ok? I don't want this which Dave installed.

I have not found any problems with these official options until now.

With money! I have bought the options.

Yes, you mentioned that before - but that doesn't change the fact that there was a bug in the firmware which was making the scope options act strangely. I'm not sure I would pay for options until I knew that they would operate correctly continuously.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 01:04:43 pm
Edit: Or is that the default behavior when the trial options are gone?

Propably it is so!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 01:19:12 pm
Where can I get a new firmware, which is tested works ok? I don't want this which Dave installed.
I don't think there is any official new version yet. I have the same as yours - with two bugs that I know of: the XY reversal - and the cancelling of trial options during self-calibration. You can get a second free trial license from Rigol if you lose the first through self-cal - but I doubt they'll give you a third, then fourth, etc, etc   :)

Quote
I have not found any problems with these official options until now.
Have you tried running a self-calibration since installing the official options?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 01:25:06 pm
Have you tried running a self-calibration since installing the official options?

No, but it is not a big problem. The options can be reinstalled, if they are lost.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 04, 2012, 01:28:20 pm
Quote
Also: I can confirm a good 'bug' in the current firmware - it seems the trial options have come back from the dead on my scope - counting down again from the initial trial minutes. Whether this is behavior which will continue indefinitely is - as you might imagine - intensely interesting. :) 

Very interesting. Please do continue to monitor this and hopefully this is a permanent "good bug". This would make the dso even more of a bargain  ;D.

I hope mine comes in sometimes next week. I'm super excited to get fingers on it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 01:30:41 pm
No, but it is not a big problem. The options can be reinstalled, if they are lost.

Yes, I understand; same serial number plus license code. I was just curious if the bug affected all installed options - or just the trial ones. I'm guessing that it's just the trial ones - time and/or protection data being overwritten.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 04, 2012, 01:36:12 pm
Quote
Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. I took best-case rate when it was fluctuating:

The 1Mhz square wave, is that from the test signal of the scope itself or an external signal from an AWG?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 01:39:55 pm
The 1Mhz square wave, is that from the test signal of the scope itself or an external signal from an AWG?

External signal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 04, 2012, 01:53:38 pm
BTW, I think I know what I did which triggered the trial options to return. But unless I can reproduce the effect a second time consecutively, I'll never know. But I won't try anything until the options are expired again, since according to EV, they expired again the next day - and I want to see if they continue counting down to zero on my scope. Watch here for updates  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 04, 2012, 02:14:31 pm
But I won't try anything until the options are expired again, ;)

Your situation is not exactly the same as I had. When my trial options had expired after calibration, I installed the official trigger option. After it also the other two options came back, but all options vanished on the next day. So I had to reinstall this official trigger option! I hope that your trial options don't vanish before this promised trial time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 04, 2012, 03:03:56 pm
Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: KedasProbe on November 04, 2012, 07:32:13 pm
How did you measure this, or was is displayed on the screen?
Single channel - 1MHz square wave to Channel 1 - Trigger Out to frequency counter. And I'll add this to the above post.
If you have time could you add the sample rate in your excel file.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 04, 2012, 11:03:16 pm
Thanks for your awesome video review marmad!  You have provided a very nice introduction to several features and analysis capabilities of this scope.  It's surprising there is not really that much out there on the Rigol DS2000 series.  It is very exciting to read more about this series of scopes, and certainly I look forward to using one myself.

This thread is excellent --- thanks also to everyone posting with their feedback, which provides much insight to the state of firmware/bugs.  After reading many peoples positive experience, I feel a lot more assured of the quality/capability of this scope than I initially did after watching Dave's "Playing around..." video...seems the firmware Dave upgraded to should be kept away from!

If I'm not mistaken, Rigol hasn't publicly distributed any official firmware upgrades for the DS2000 series yet.  I hope firmware updates from Rigol become transparent --- e.g. listed on a website for easy download, with clear indication of bugs fixed, features added, etc.

Cheers folks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 12:48:55 am
Here is a test of the first in a group of utilities I'm writing for the Rigol DS2000: software which grabs the recorded frames to the PC for compilation into videos. This is a small first test - only 126 frames - but I'll try to upload a larger one tomorrow.

I put it up on Youtube - but the beautiful resolution got ruined by their compression. Better to look at it here: http://www.daysalive.com/share/DS2000_movie_test.mov (http://www.daysalive.com/share/DS2000_movie_test.mov)
Give it a few seconds to load before it starts playing.

Now not only can you make images from your DSO screen - you can make DSO home movies  ;)

Edit: And I'll start posting the software as soon as it gets a bit closer to release-ready.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 01:08:43 am
Thanks for your awesome video review marmad!  You have provided a very nice introduction to several features and analysis capabilities of this scope.  It's surprising there is not really that much out there on the Rigol DS2000 series.
You're welcome, Sparky - and I hope to add more to the knowledge base as I learn more about the scope. But I think it's only been available since June - so it's not too surprising there isn't much yet.

Quote
If I'm not mistaken, Rigol hasn't publicly distributed any official firmware upgrades for the DS2000 series yet.  I hope firmware updates from Rigol become transparent --- e.g. listed on a website for easy download, with clear indication of bugs fixed, features added, etc.
As far as I know, there are no updates yet, but the current firmware is very stable (Dave unfortunately got a slightly buggy not-for-general-release version) - with only the 2 bugs mentioned before that I know about. But, as much as I love this scope - and admire Rigol's ingenuity and professional products - the downside of owning a Chinese scope is slow (and sometimes bad) communication and secrecy. Some Chinese companies are better than others - but they all seem to suffer from it to some degree.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on November 05, 2012, 01:36:55 am
Where can I get a new firmware, which is tested works ok? I don't want this which Dave installed.

I've been informed that new official firmware will be available on the 15th Nov.
I'm currently running a new engineering version that fixes the issues with the zoom etc.

Dave.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 05, 2012, 08:56:27 am
Here is a test of the first in a group of utilities I'm writing for the Rigol DS2000: software which grabs the recorded frames to the PC for compilation into videos. This is a small first test - only 126 frames - but I'll try to upload a larger one tomorrow.

<snip>

Edit: And I'll start posting the software as soon as it gets a bit closer to release-ready.

This is fantastic, marmad!  :)  I noted on Rigon NA website that the DS1000E series has quite a bit of documentation/software related to programming, and so I was bummed to see so little on DS2000 pages.  You touched on the PC control in your video and earlier in this thread, and I'm super happy to see that PC control and data transfer still exists. 

I've previously written a Visual Basic program using LabVIEW controls and GPIB interface to talk with a spectrometer so that control could be done from a PC, and display results and computations on PC also.  I'd be very excited to work on something for this scope --- it should be possible to build PC software with additional signal analysis (especially FFT and choice of windows etc).

@marmad: What programming language and dev. environment are you using for your software development? What is the communications protocol to talk with the DS2000?  Very exciting!

Cheers!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 05, 2012, 09:47:14 am
Edit: And I'll start posting the software as soon as it gets a bit closer to release-ready.

This is fine, thank you!

Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?

I have used only RS-232 decoder and it works well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 09:54:00 am
Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?

I have used only Rs-232 encoder and it works well.
I used the I2C decode in the video review - it worked just as expected.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 03:07:17 pm
What programming language and dev. environment are you using for your software development? What is the communications protocol to talk with the DS2000?  Very exciting!
I'm using Visual Studio and the National Instruments VISA DLLs - talking to the device with SCPI.

Ok, it was rather late last night when I posted the first DS2000 screen-video - getting frustrated because of YouTube's compression - and I forgot to create a little FlashPlayer on the page I linked to. Now I have and it's much better. So here is the second test of creating an H264 encoded video from the recorded frames (i.e. segments of memory) on the Rigol DS2072:

Logarithmic sweep: 10Hz - 40kHz with sync pulse, while displaying one reference square wave of 1kHz and one of 10kHz.
1700 frames @ 34". I'm playing back at 50 fps, so you'll notice the clock counting seconds faster than normal. Also my software hit a bug near the end, so the last ~100 frames were captured later on (you can see the clock jump)  ;)

It's a 15MB movie, so it can take a few moments (depending on your connection speed) to start playing:

http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html (http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html)

Also, as of today, my reanimated trial options are still working fine - third day running  :)

Edit: I tried to attach a smaller version for download here, but it appears the blog doesn't allow video file types :( Perhaps, it's time to change that? Anyway, here is a download link for a smaller version: 250 frames @30fps real-time: http://turbidmedia.com/ds2072.mov (http://turbidmedia.com/ds2072.mov)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 05, 2012, 04:03:56 pm
Hi Marmad,

Great video. I appreciate you taking your time to do these kind of video. I very exciting and glad to hear your trial options are still up and running. I hope it stays that way. Do it still counts down or is it a bogus number for the remaining time of the options?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 04:13:28 pm
Do it still counts down or is it a bogus number for the remaining time of the options?
Yes, counting down.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 05:13:09 pm
Another fantastic thing I noticed today (and I'll include this in another video): as long as recorded frames are in memory, you can do any processing to them that you can do to real-time waveforms - for example, taking any kind of measurement or running one of the bus decode options works perfectly fine on recorded frames while they're playing back.

This is a powerful feature which can allow you to do post-processing inside the DSO on 'real-time' signals at a later date. It's just kind of strange that Rigol didn't allow the option of saving and recalling the recorded frames to a USB stick. Of course, it's no problem to get the frames out of the scope using SCPI, but I haven't been able to locate any method for loading them BACK in - which, IMO, is a huge wasted opportunity on Rigol's part. It means that once they're replaced in the memory by something else, there is no way to get them back  :(

Imagine you recorded some minutes of a waveform last week, but you thought of something new you wanted to check. If you could somehow recall the frames into the scope, you could run some analysis/processing on them again. Of course, this can be done outside the scope with software - but often it would be handier (and quicker) to just reload them into the DSO.

Edit: Attached is an image made playing back recorded frames while doing measurements and SPI bus decoding after the fact - and then going into Delayed Sweep (zoom) at the same time  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 05, 2012, 05:20:46 pm
It's a 15MB movie, so it can take a few moments (depending on your connection speed) to start playing:

http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html (http://turbidmedia.com/ds2000.html)

Fine video, thank you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 05, 2012, 05:31:47 pm
Great fine of the post processing analysis with recorded frames Marmad! That is kind of cheesy of Rigol not implementing the loading of recorded data back into the dso. Maybe this is something that could be implemented in future versions of the firmware?

Love your videos, please keep it coming.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: saturation on November 05, 2012, 07:37:03 pm
Great review, justing adding my kudos.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 05, 2012, 07:52:59 pm
Great review, justing adding my kudos.
Thanks, saturation. I appreciate it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 06, 2012, 09:04:33 am
What programming language and dev. environment are you using for your software development? What is the communications protocol to talk with the DS2000?  Very exciting!
I'm using Visual Studio and the National Instruments VISA DLLs - talking to the device with SCPI.

Thanks marmad!  I'm happy to hear about use of Visual Studio --- I have used it as the dev. environment for my Visual Basic apps. 

Also, excellent videos and pictures you are posting --- thanks very much for posting them, and your discoveries, and bringing attention to improvements (to John S in the EEV#369 thread).  It's very exciting to see the developments! :)

The user user feedback, expansion of possibilities with PC apps, and positive news of firmware update about Nov 15 (fixing XY bug additional bugs Dave experienced) make me feel very positive about this scope.  As a result, I placed order for one of these today!

Best!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 07, 2012, 01:27:15 am
I thought it might be handy to compile a list of other EEVblog threads about the Rigol DS2000 series.  They contain great information too!

EEVblog #360 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Teardown (by Dave): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/)

EEVblog #369 - Rigol DS2000 Oscilloscope Playing Around (by Dave): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/)

Rigol DS 2072 noise problem (by playfsx): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds-2072-noise-problem/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds-2072-noise-problem/)

Rigol DS2072 Review (by JimmySte): https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds2072-review/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/product-reviews-photos-and-discussion/rigol-ds2072-review/)

Edit: Since this is the latest "review and first impressions" thread on the Rigol DS2000 series, it is probably best to post similar info here. So we can read everyone's happy news at once :)

Happy reading!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 07, 2012, 02:19:20 am
Since this thread is the latest and currently most active on the DS2000 series, it might make sense to keep general discussion here (least we end up with 20 threads!)

Well, just as you posted this, I posted something in the other thread which actually belongs here with my review - so I'll repost a snippet from it, which is my current features wish-list for the DS2000 series:

1) Save/Recall of specifc channels of recorded frames at specific frame points.
2) Markers while in Delayed Sweep Mode (searching would be better - but I think unlikely)
3) SCPI :SYST:KEY command to poll the 4 menu pg up/pg dwn buttons (unused on the front panel when the menus are retracted - the scope lacks the ability to initiate contact with control software and this would be an easy way to do it - and they would also then function as programmable soft-keys).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on November 07, 2012, 02:45:44 am
Hi guys
just ordered 2072 largely based on the reviews here.   The 200 MHz sleeping beast inside looks promising.

I went with tequipment - they were on a generator yesterday and today finally got the commercial power restored... with another noreaster brewing off the coast.  Not sure when I will actually get mine.  But I figured they really need orders; probably lost so much because of Sandy.  Make sure you request a quote from them before ordering via the web site.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 07, 2012, 02:54:10 am
just ordered 2072 largely based on the reviews here.   The 200 MHz sleeping beast inside looks promising.

Welcome - I think you'll really like your purchase. Feel free to post your reactions and thoughts once you've tried it out.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on November 07, 2012, 03:19:06 am
I went with tequipment - they were on a generator yesterday and today finally got the commercial power restored... with another noreaster brewing off the coast.  Not sure when I will actually get mine.  But I figured they really need orders; probably lost so much because of Sandy.  Make sure you request a quote from them before ordering via the web site.
Thanks for the info on that - glad to hear they have power back.  Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice or are they maybe backlogged and that would be a chance to let a buyer know?  It's possible I'll want to order one myself from somewhere at some point soon-ish.

Thanks again,
Jacob
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 07, 2012, 05:56:46 am
Hi guys
just ordered 2072 largely based on the reviews here.   The 200 MHz sleeping beast inside looks promising.

I went with tequipment - they were on a generator yesterday and today finally got the commercial power restored... with another noreaster brewing off the coast.  Not sure when I will actually get mine.  But I figured they really need orders; probably lost so much because of Sandy.  Make sure you request a quote from them before ordering via the web site.

Glad to see another member get on board with this scope. I was trying to gathering people together so we can get a 5% discount on our purchase with 5 units. Unfortunately, I did not hear back from any members except jnuemann who is still undecided until next month or so according to him. Well, I got anxious and jump the gun and ordered one last week. I should be getting mine this coming Monday. Even without the 5% discount, it is still a great price.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 07, 2012, 12:59:12 pm
Since this thread is the latest and currently most active on the DS2000 series, it might make sense to keep general discussion here (least we end up with 20 threads!)
Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but in fact, the whole point of threads stems from the name: that they should be specific. Of course, everybody here (including myself) breaks this rule regularly. But the result of this, unfortunately, is often threads that are 50-100 pages long, filled with reviews, hacks, product information, technical support, etc, etc, and are an absolute bitch to wade through for just one piece of information.

In fact, I screwed up by starting a NEW review thread of the DS2072 when I should have posted my video under JimmySte's thread. It's just that when I posted reviews of the Owon and Hantek, there weren't any other review threads, so I was just used to starting a new one and forgot.

In theory, the two EEVBlog DS2000 threads are specifically about Dave's videos; the two review threads (JimmySte and myself) should be combined as one (perhaps by Dave or one of the moderators?) - with new reviews and impressions added there (for people thinking of buying the scope); and the noise problem thread turned out not to be a problem with the scope but with playfsx's power - and so it should end. Then there should be a new thread titled something like 'Rigol DS2000 series - tips, tricks, software' for people who already own the scope and are looking - not for review information - but for tips and added features, etc, and perhaps another thread devoted to firmware updates and hacks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on November 07, 2012, 02:10:16 pm
Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice

Yes they will verify stock and send a formal quote. also got a small discount from the web price and I didn't even ask for it :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 07, 2012, 03:31:58 pm
Since this thread is the latest and currently most active on the DS2000 series, it might make sense to keep general discussion here (least we end up with 20 threads!)
Not to be a wet blanket or anything, but in fact, the whole point of threads stems from the name: that they should be specific. Of course, everybody here (including myself) breaks this rule regularly. But the result of this, unfortunately, is often threads that are 50-100 pages long, filled with reviews, hacks, product information, technical support, etc, etc, and are an absolute bitch to wade through for just one piece of information.
<snip>

You're right, Mark. It is good etiquette that posts within a thread remain "on-topic" with the thread title, which makes it much easier to find specific types of information.  I didn't mean for everything Rigol DS2000 to be posted here (I agree -- best to avoid the mess you describe above!), and I tried to indicate that with the "general information" bit...in hindsight I can see that is vague on my part.  For sure, it's best to post where it makes sense, and if that means creating a new thread on a new topic, so be it!  Would be great to have a thread specific to Rigol DS2000 tips n' tricks, software, etc.!  (I'll go edit my earlier post...)

Now, back on topic for me! I've ordered my DS2072 from TEquipment.net also --- am super looking forward to it, and will share my initial experience and thoughts here! :)

Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice
Yes they will verify stock and send a formal quote. also got a small discount from the web price and I didn't even ask for it :)
This is also my experience.  I actually called and made a change to my order and they still applied a 5% discount.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Yaksaredabomb on November 07, 2012, 08:03:54 pm
Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice
Yes they will verify stock and send a formal quote. also got a small discount from the web price and I didn't even ask for it :)
This is also my experience.  I actually called and made a change to my order and they still applied a 5% discount.

Thanks zibadun and Sparky.  I'll definitely have to keep TEquipment.net in mind and request a quote once/if I decide the DS2072 is best for my needs.  Hopefully they'll still have the discount at that point.  (Not to derail - I have another thread for that decision process and am grateful for the help I've gotten there.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 07, 2012, 08:35:37 pm
Any particular reason you suggest requesting a quote?  Is that just good practice

Yes they will verify stock and send a formal quote. also got a small discount from the web price and I didn't even ask for it :)

Wow that is terrific. How much of a discount did you get? Now, I may call them to see if I could get that to my order but I'm already charged for the unit. Did they say why they gave you the discount eventhough you did not asked for it? Was this purchase at tequipment?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on November 07, 2012, 08:55:55 pm
I may call them to see if I could get that to my order but I'm already charged for the unit. Did they say why they gave you the discount eventhough you did not asked for it?

May be they were counting on a word getting out...  and it worked ;)   Not sure they *have* to give the discount but may be if you mention this forum or something.  I'm sure they've noticed a bump in 2072s orders and may be wondering where they are coming from
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 07, 2012, 09:44:22 pm
Wow that is terrific. How much of a discount did you get? Now, I may call them to see if I could get that to my order but I'm already charged for the unit. Did they say why they gave you the discount eventhough you did not asked for it? Was this purchase at tequipment?

Yes, from Tequipment.net.  It was 5% discount, which is ~$40 on the DS2072.  Not huge, but something.  I thought I got a .edu discount as that was my inquiry to them in my request for quote (I gave them my .edu email and university name).  Though, I recall you spoke with them and found that there are no individual or .edu discounts!  So...I've no idea why they gave it to me!  Seems other people have also got it by luck.  At least you got free DSO case from them, correct?

Now, back to DS2072 news :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 07, 2012, 10:03:04 pm
Ok, been using the scope 2 weeks - here is a current list of known firmware annoyances/problems/bugs (leaving out unimplemented features - or physical design issues):

1) The scope appears to first clear the display then restart the sweep whenever moving the waveform vertically, changing the vertical or horizontal scale, moving trigger position, turning on/off channels, etc. At faster timebase settings this isn't much of a problem, but when doing any of these things with divisions >=50ms, the scope can feel unresponsive. I'm wondering if this might be attributed to what I'll call the 'Owon effect' (having just one routine for something, no matter the memory size) - because the sample depth settings do not change the response time. It's as if the scope is always dealing with 56MPts in this regard. Maybe it has to act this way in case the memory is being used as history ('Record Open'); i.e. the memory is a third dimension to any sample size.

2) The way the scope handles intensity grading in delayed sweep mode needs some work - it doesn't appear to be the same as if you just stop the sweep and zoom in via the horizontal scale (I can't quite figure out why this would logically happen). Sometimes the grading is just too light to see well and you need to turn up the intensity settings.

3) When you turn on tracking cursors (if all cursors off), the measurement window doesn't appear. You can workaround this by cycling through (via the menu button) to manual cursors and back to tracking.

4) X-Y channels are reversed.

5) Self-calibration will automatically expire any trial options currently running.

6) [Added 09/11] AUTO routine sometimes fails to latch onto signals. I'm not sure about the exact circumstances - member EV says that it has to do with 2 channels, but I'm fairly certain it has worked for me with 2 channels sometimes (and others not). Perhaps someone can test and figure out the parameters of this bug.

7) [Edited 09/12] If you use the FINE horizontal scale adjust at scales >=20ms (Press -> [Horizontal] Menu -> ScaleAdjust -> Fine), the max/min horizontal trigger position becomes locked to the next lower major division*10/14 - instead of staying 10x/14x of whatever the actual setting is.  This can cause the trigger position to jump and become frozen (with the 'Parameters overrange!' message) in the middle of the display. See this message (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg169891/#msg169891) for more details.

Anyone reading this with a DS2000 or DS4000 that can point out something else, feel free to chime in.

Edit (09/11): According to Rigol, #1 is just because they happen to do the restarting of the sweep the opposite way (first clear - perform function - then redraw) from other manufacturers, who leave the old waveform on the display when you move it, change scale, etc. - which is how I expected they'd respond. Well, the other way is better I think (whether they are equivalent or not - it just feels more responsive). Anyway, hopefully if enough owners complain about it, they'll change it eventually.

Edit (14/12): I'm moving this entire list to the first post of the thread to make it more easy to find.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 08, 2012, 02:05:41 am
Hi Marmad,

Again, thanks for the updates. It seems #2 and #3 are just annoyances that can be worked around by the user but finding #1 is kind of troubling to hear. I've dealt and know what you mean by the 'Owon effect' and I really don't like it at all. Hopefully this can be tweaked in the firmware to get faster response time at >=50ms time base. Great fine and thanks for reporting in.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 08, 2012, 02:11:18 am
Another interesting piece of data about the 'Record Open' mode:

For those who haven't watched the review - or couldn't quite get what I was talking about - in 'Record Open' mode, the scope divides the memory into as many slices as it can based on the current sample depth (e.g. 56M/14k = 4000 [the maximum number is 65000]), then starts writing the captures into those slices (frames) continuously, looping back and overwriting from the beginning when it overruns the last frame. At any point you can stop the scope and jog back through the previous frames - looking at the history of the waveform over time. Then you could just restart the scope - again recording - or else process the timeslices with bus decoding or analysis.

I was curious what kind of effect using this mode would have on the wfrm/s update rate, so I checked it at various timebase settings. It appears it has no effect on the rate (as it shouldn't, if just done with pointers). Also, you can actually see the tangible speed of the update rate in the time tag of the recorded frames: i.e. using the smallest sample depth at the 20ns/div setting, the wfrm/s = 50k, so each frame is 20us - the reciprocal of 50k.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 09, 2012, 02:47:31 am
Very helpful posts @marmad, thanks!  Itemizing the bugs/annoyances will come in handy when checking if issues are resolved by firmware updates, and is good to prioritize issues we'd like to see resolved when contacting Rigol.  Definitely #1 on your list ("unresponsiveness") would seem to be the most frustrating aspect right now.

Thanks for going to the trouble of explaining more about how the scope functions --- really helpful information.

When a few more of us have scopes on hand (next week it seems!), we will have more end-user experiences.  We probably all emphasize different features of the scope depending on what we are working on, and so should be able to have additional things to discuss here --- at least this is how I hoped to contribute knowledge!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 09, 2012, 03:22:03 am
Well, mine is scheduled to arrive on 11/12/12 which is next week. I will also try to confirm so of the bugs and annoyances on mine to see if anything changed in the firmware from the time marmad got his but I highly doubt it. The supposedly next firmware release for the DS2072 is on 11/15/12 according to Dave and John South I believe who is a Rigol reseller.

I'm glad to have more time to spend on the scope Marmad. Well, one thing that worries me is every time you play with it you find something new. Given the fact this is a newly introduced model since June of this year, I can see not everything is ironed out. Good work in all these findings. You are probably the one only solely pinging all these bugs and annoyances at the moment it seems  ;).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 09, 2012, 07:50:37 am
- here is a current list of known firmware annoyances/problems/bugs (leaving out unimplemented features - or physical design issues):


Good list, I have not found anything to add to it, but when pressing AUTO button the scope does not find signals for both channels.

Real time 9.995 seconds gives exactly 10 seconds on the horisontal scale.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2012, 10:26:56 am
Good list, I have not found anything to add to it, but when pressing AUTO button the scope does not find signals for both channels.

Thanks for the reminder - I had noticed (but forgotten) that there was some strangeness in the AUTO routine - I will add it to the list above.

Quote
Real time 9.995 seconds gives exactly 10 seconds on the horisontal scale.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - can you be more specific?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 09, 2012, 11:24:16 am

Quote
Real time 9.995 seconds gives exactly 10 seconds on the horisontal scale.

I'm not sure what you mean by this - can you be more specific?

Sorry about my bad language. Look at the pictures:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2012, 11:46:43 am
Sorry about my bad language. Look at the pictures:

No problem about the language - we do the best we can  :)  I understand now.

As far as I can tell, I don't have this anomaly on my scope. If I look at a 1Hz square wave at any timebase (1s/500ms/200ms,etc), it's exactly on the grid lines. Are you sure your sweep time is accurate?

Edit: Attached image of 1Hz square wave

Edit2: Changed image to one with brighter grid

Edit3: Just double-checked Normal and Single trigger modes: in either case (on my DS2072), a 1Hz square wave lands exactly on the grid lines at any horizontal scale.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 09, 2012, 12:14:10 pm
Are you sure your sweep time is accurate?


Propably the problem is the acccuracy of the sweep time of the function generator. I tried also external GPS locked time reference, but it did not change it.

Then I checked this accuracy with 0.1 mHz pulse and there is no error on the time scale. So the problem is not cause of the oscilloscope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 09, 2012, 01:18:43 pm
Then I checked this accuracy with 0.1 mHz pulse and there is no error on the time scale. So the problem is not cause of the oscilloscope.

Good to hear  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 07:47:34 am
Hi Marmad,

Just out of curiosity, what persistency setting do you have the scope on for normal use? Just received my scope today and starting to play with it. This might have came up before but I did notice the waveforms blinks in and out of the screen when moving it either in the horizontal or vertical position. I vaguely remembered someone mentioned this issue before.

So far, loving it. Still going through some of the features it has. I found selecting an option with the push in multi-function knob kind of iffy as it can slip and you will end up with the previous or next setting. I found a workaround which requires only to select the option you want with the mult-function knob and if you are set with that option, just press the menu button rather than push the knob in. This guarantees your selection sticks and I'm using it constantly rather than the push in feature for selecting.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 10:48:29 am
Just out of curiosity, what persistency setting do you have the scope on for normal use?

I use the standard Min setting - which gives you the normal analog scope feel; I would only use something higher if I was looking for anomalies.

Quote
This might have came up before but I did notice the waveforms blinks in and out of the screen when moving it either in the horizontal or vertical position. I vaguely remembered someone mentioned this issue before.

It's #1 on the list of known firmware annoyances/problems/bugs I posted earlier.

Quote
I found selecting an option with the push in multi-function knob kind of iffy as it can slip and you will end up with the previous or next setting. I found a workaround which requires only to select the option you want with the mult-function knob and if you are set with that option, just press the menu button rather than push the knob in. This guarantees your selection sticks and I'm using it constantly rather than the push in feature for selecting.

Yes, I mentioned this in the video review as one of my annoyances (but I find it's the same on every scope when you have to make a selection by pushing a rotary encoder).  I also try to use the workaround method you describe - but unfortunately, it doesn't work for every item (e.g. trigger selection).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 12:53:43 pm
Quote
I use the standard Min setting - which gives you the normal analog scope feel; I would only use something higher if I was looking for anomalies.

Thanks for the respond. Yes, you are right on the trigger menu part as I did failed to mention it in the workaround. However, where I can avoid having to push in the knob I do.

Are the options still functioning on your dso? Is the count down still happening?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 01:02:44 pm
Are the options still functioning on your dso? Is the count down still happening?

Nope, my trial options are currently expired - although I did get a mysterious full extra 35 hours after the initial period was expired (it reset itself). Also, I still have a spare trial license code from Rigol (courtesy of my distributor) to use - but I will save it until I really need it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 01:12:07 pm
Quote
Nope, my trial options are currently expired - although I did get a mysterious full extra 35 hours after the initial period was expired (it reset itself). Also, I still have a spare trial license code from Rigol (courtesy of my distributor) to use - but I will save it until I really need it.

Well, at least we know the options do not last forever  :o but I'm happy that you have 35hrs in reserve.

Can the firmware be backed up just in case some mysterious power outage takes out the scope for no apparent reason?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 01:30:12 pm
Can the firmware be backed up just in case some mysterious power outage takes out the scope for no apparent reason?
???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 01:33:01 pm
That was just an inquiry, my dso is still perfectly fine. Just curious as to if it is even possible to back up the firmware as a safety precaution. Just wondering.... ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 01:44:46 pm
That was just an inquiry, my dso is still perfectly fine. Just curious as to if it is even possible to back up the firmware as a safety precaution. Just wondering.... ;D

Since firmware does not fail because of power outages (unless, perhaps, one happens at the exact moment you're upgrading the firmware) - and since many manufacturers generally don't want people fiddling with their firmware - and since one of the reasons manufacturers supply warranties is as a safety precaution against device failure - I'd guess that, no, there is no method (or at least no publicly available method) to copy the firmware from the DSO to a PC.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 02:05:39 pm
Quote
Since firmware does not fail because of power outages (unless, perhaps, one happens at the exact moment you're upgrading the firmware) - and since many manufacturers generally don't want people fiddling with their firmware - and since one of the reasons manufacturers supply warranties is as a safety precaution against device failure - I'd guess that, no, there is no method (or at least no publicly available method) to copy the firmware from the DSO to a PC.

Thanks marmad, I figure it will be some time before someone can dump the firmware from this dso. I recalled in Dave's tear down of this scope, there are jtag pins available so maybe in the future this is an option for dumping the firmware? Anyhow, the previous inquiry was like you said, what if power went down during a firmware update and your warranty is expired? It would be nice at that point to have something to load back onto the dso.

I noticed on channel 2 of my dso I'm getting 10mV of ripple noise as opposed to channel 1 which is about half that. Is this normal or maybe there is grounding issue for channel 2? This is done with the respected channel in question and nothing hooked up to the probe.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 03:10:11 pm
I noticed on channel 2 of my dso I'm getting 10mV of ripple noise as opposed to channel 1 which is about half that. Is this normal or maybe there is grounding issue for channel 2? This is done with the respected channel in question and nothing hooked up to the probe.

A probe can act like an antenna. To check actual noise levels of the DSO, unhook the probes. Also, posting a screen cap here (try to use .png format to save Dave's BW) would help in identifying problems.

Attached are pngs of noise levels of my scope at the 500uV vertical setting:
No BW limit: ~640 uVpp average
20M BW limit: ~176 uVpp average
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 13, 2012, 04:06:10 pm

A probe can act like an antenna. To check actual noise levels of the DSO, unhook the probes. Also, posting a screen cap here (try to use .png format to save Dave's BW) would help in identifying problems.

Attached are pngs of noise levels of my scope at the 500uV vertical setting:
No BW limit: ~640 uVpp average
20M BW limit: ~176 uVpp average


I also checked the average noise values and got:

680/660 uVpp with no BW limit and horisontal scale at 20 ns
180/170 uVpp with 20M BW limit and horisontal scale at 20 ns

1.27/1.21 mVpp with no BW limit and horisontal scale at 10 ms
597/560 uVpp with 20M BW limit and horisontal scale at 10 ms

It looks that the noise value depends on the horisontal scale value possition.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 04:17:02 pm
Thanks again for the info marmad. You are absolutely right about the probe acting like an antenna. After removing it and checked again. Normal ~400uV and with 20Mhz BW limit ~160uV. I did not wanted to post a picture just to save Dave's BW just for this. In the future, I will with other issues so debugging and locating discrepancies would be easier.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 04:20:51 pm
I got so excited when receiving and playing around with the scope to check its labeled spec that I've did a self cal and lost the trial options.... :-[. I'm mad at myself as I really wanted to try out the i2c decoding on a small project. I'm kind of bummed for doing that... |O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 04:42:07 pm
It looks that the noise value depends on the horisontal scale value possition.

It's not the noise level - it's the measurements themselves. Most lower cost scopes (including the Agilent X series) take measurements from the displayed data - not the full-resolution captured data. Like analog scopes, measurement is most accurate when the waveform fills the screen without overshoot, and you have at least 3-4 cycles on screen.  If you play with the vertical or horizontal scale while keeping auto measurement on, you can watch the measurements change dynamically, starting with the LSD of the values.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 13, 2012, 04:47:39 pm
It looks that the noise value depends on the horisontal scale value possition.

It's not the noise level - it's the measurements themselves. Most lower cost scopes (including the Agilent X series) take measurements from the displayed data - not the full-resolution captured data. Like analog scopes, measurement is most accurate when the waveform fills the screen without overshoot, and you have at least 3-4 cycles on screen.  If you play with the vertical or horizontal scale while keeping auto measurement on, you can watch the measurements change dynamically, starting with the LSD of the values.

Taking overshoot into account, the measurement reported from the dso is the average of the all the captured display data? How does it do the calculation for the reported Vpp, does it take a fixed sample size from the displayed data and average that?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on November 13, 2012, 05:13:47 pm
I got so excited when receiving and playing around with the scope to check its labeled spec that I've did a self cal and lost the trial options.... :-[. I'm mad at myself as I really wanted to try out the i2c decoding on a small project. I'm kind of bummed for doing that... |O

This is one of the known bugs with the current firmware.  It has been mentioned (by marmad and perhaps others) that you can request a new set of trial license codes for the optional modules from your distributor.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 13, 2012, 05:31:05 pm
Taking overshoot into account, the measurement reported from the dso is the average of the all the captured display data? How does it do the calculation for the reported Vpp, does it take a fixed sample size from the displayed data and average that?

I'm not sure what you're asking. The measurements are made on the displayed data, which is limited to 700 x 400 points - not the entire sample data.

You can see this effect clearly by setting your sample depth to 14Mpts, then feeding a fixed waveform into the scope and adjusting the vertical and horizontal scales until 2 or 3 cycles fill the screen. Then turn on the Vpp measurement. Then change to the smallest timebase scale (i.e. flattening the waveform) and you will see the Vpp measurement flatten correspondingly. Then STOP the scope and increase the horizontal scale - you will see the entire captured waveform reappear (from stored sample memory) and the Vpp measurements will again increase as the waveform fills the screen.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on November 13, 2012, 09:41:24 pm
Since firmware does not fail because of power outages (unless, perhaps, one happens at the exact moment you're upgrading the firmware) - and since many manufacturers generally don't want people fiddling with their firmware - and since one of the reasons manufacturers supply warranties is as a safety precaution against device failure - I'd guess that, no, there is no method (or at least no publicly available method) to copy the firmware from the DSO to a PC.
...Anyhow, the previous inquiry was like you said, what if power went down during a firmware update and your warranty is expired? It would be nice at that point to have something to load back onto the dso.
DS2000 has a bootloader (unlike DS1000E), so in case of e.g. power failure during firmware update, the unit may not start again, but you are still able to re-initiate FW update by pressing HELP button during boot process (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700).

In addition to that, importand unit specific data is backed up in another part of memory, so in case they gets corrupted or overwritten, they are restored automatically.  I'd say there is enough protection implemented. Anyway, in case anybody get into trouble and need my help, feel free to contact me.

As I already mentioned in another post here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700), I suggest anybody with FW version 00.00.01.00.02 to upgrade first to 00.00.01.00.05 or later.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 14, 2012, 04:32:23 am
Quote
I'm not sure what you're asking. The measurements are made on the displayed data, which is limited to 700 x 400 points - not the entire sample data.

You can see this effect clearly by setting your sample depth to 14Mpts, then feeding a fixed waveform into the scope and adjusting the vertical and horizontal scales until 2 or 3 cycles fill the screen. Then turn on the Vpp measurement. Then change to the smallest timebase scale (i.e. flattening the waveform) and you will see the Vpp measurement flatten correspondingly. Then STOP the scope and increase the horizontal scale - you will see the entire captured waveform reappear (from stored sample memory) and the Vpp measurements will again increase as the waveform fills the screen.

Sorry I've misunderstood initially but now I understand what you meant by the display data. Thanks for the detailed info and clarifying things up for me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 14, 2012, 04:35:48 am
Quote
DS2000 has a bootloader (unlike DS1000E), so in case of e.g. power failure during firmware update, the unit may not start again, but you are still able to initiate another FW update by pressing HELP button during boot process.

In addition to that, importand unit specific data is backed up in another part of memory, so in case they gets corrupted or overwritten, they are restored automatically.  I'd say there is enough protection implemented. Anyway, in case anybody get into trouble and need my help, feel free to contact me.

As I already mentioned in another post here, I suggest anybody with FW version 00.00.01.00.02 to upgrade first to 00.00.01.00.05 or later.

Great information there drieg and thank you for pointing this out to me. I believe I'm on firmware 00.00.01. I haven't checked the Rigol site for newer firmware yet but it seems they are out since you mentioned the two firmware update. I have to look into this.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tlu on November 14, 2012, 04:54:57 am
Just double checked and the software version is 00.00.01 and hardware version is 1.0.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on November 15, 2012, 11:52:23 pm
Check full/long firmware version  00.00.01.xx.xx as described here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: paolo on November 20, 2012, 11:52:45 pm
... take measurements from the displayed data - not the full-resolution captured data.

Aha! That explains a few things that were confusing me initially.

...I received mine at the weekend. My first scope, and initially thought - oh dear, I've overbought, should have bought something cheaper/lower end as a starter. But I'm getting much more comfortable with it now.

I'm not the person to give an opinion on tech performance, but it's ticking the boxes that made me think it was the right scope for me - UI and screen size were the main factors. Especially UI. Chinese products generally can struggle a bit in that area. The videos of the Owon I'd seen - despite being on a nice big screen - well, the UI seemed to be all over the place. The Rigol on the other hand makes good use of lots of soft buttons, which minimises sub menus and all that.

The screen is also nice. TBF it's still a far cry from other more general tech. When we're seeing 'retina' displays etc becoming common on sub $500 consumer devices, this is an area where scope manufacturers (one and all) seem to be a few years behind where it's at. But, relative to other scopes at this price, it's pretty good I think, and doesn't have that horrible Owon 'margin' space that chops off a whole load of usable area.

(Dreaming... One day budget scope designers will offer HDMI out, and let us plug in our cheap 720p or 1080p displays. The built in screen will be considered a basic integral screen for scenarios when an external display isn't practical or available. Perhaps there won't even be a built in LCD on some models. For the hi-res out of course they'll need more video memory and more CPU/GPU horsepower to plot those muuuch nicer resolutions, but that's not insurmountable.)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: T4P on November 21, 2012, 07:53:57 am
Of course they are common 500$ devices, they have 10-20$ chips that do everything in the phone ... vs 100$ alone for the ADC
AND a proper industrial LCD panel, not a crap one that starts going wobbly in 2-3 years
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on November 21, 2012, 09:49:56 am
...I received mine at the weekend. My first scope, and initially thought - oh dear, I've overbought, should have bought something cheaper/lower end as a starter. But I'm getting much more comfortable with it now.
Check that you have the latest firmware version 01.00.05 (using the instructions provided above and in other threads).

Quote
The screen is also nice. TBF it's still a far cry from other more general tech. When we're seeing 'retina' displays etc becoming common on sub $500 consumer devices, this is an area where scope manufacturers (one and all) seem to be a few years behind where it's at. But, relative to other scopes at this price, it's pretty good I think, and doesn't have that horrible Owon 'margin' space that chops off a whole load of usable area.
You have to realize that every extra pixel displayed horizontally (and to a lesser extent, vertically) is a major challenge for DSO manufacturers - it's always a tradeoff between resolution, waveform update rate, and blind time - that's why the screen resolutions lag behind other digital devices that cost similar amounts of money. This article gives you an introduction to the idea: http://www.eetimes.com/ContentEETimes/Documents/Schweber/C0906/C0906edited.pdf (http://www.eetimes.com/ContentEETimes/Documents/Schweber/C0906/C0906edited.pdf)

For example, the DS2072 displays 700 pixels horizontally for the waveform. At the 20ns timebase setting, with 14k sample memory, it's processing 700MB of data per second (@ 50k wfrm/s) to those 700 pixels - each one representing ~560ps of time, with an intensity level indicating frequency of occurrence.

Edit: Sorry, my math above was not correct - I wrote it when I first woke up  ;) - although the principal of increasing the resolution also increasing the blind time remains. But the math is as follows:

The DS2072 displays a MAXIMUM of 700 points horizontally for the waveform. At the 20ns timebase setting, with 14k sample memory, the scope is capturing the entire sample depth in 7us (500ps per sample at the 2GS/s rate), but it's only displaying 280ns (or 560 points) of the captured sample. So the DPO processing that takes place is happening on 28MB of data per second (560 * 50k) - likely the highest throughput that the scope can achieve. If you would increase the screen resolution to a higher number (e.g. 1024 pixels), the displayed points would increase - and the waveform update rate would have to drop (and the blind time increase) correspondingly in order to maintain the same throughput.

I think I've got it right this time  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on November 21, 2012, 06:16:28 pm
I suggest anybody with FW version 00.00.01.00.02 to upgrade first to 00.00.01.00.05 or later.

I have now also upgraded to this 00.00.01.00.05 version. No problems. Thanks for tips!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 01, 2012, 12:15:55 am
Hi folks!

I finally received my DS2072 today.  :)  I ordered from Tequipment.net, and they were out of stock, so it took forever to get, and in my case, it shipped direct from Rigol's warehouse.

I've only had about 30 mins with it(!), but my initial reaction was "NICEEEEE!"  The first thing that really stands out before turning it on is the quality (and weight!) --- way exceeds general expectation of China brand equipment.  Even before using, you feel this is a very well engineered equipment, and I really feel I'm going to enjoy using it.

I'm not sure if there's a way to find the manufacture date, but mine was calibrated on July 20.  I had a quick look at the software/hardware versions I got:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.02
Hardware version: 1.1.0.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

So, the older 01.00.02 firmware is still shipping.  I'm going to contact Tequipment.net for the 01.00.05 firmware update before I use it much.  Most likely I'll get the update on Monday (as it's late Friday here).  I'll post back here with the outcome and more impressions!

Overall, very happy and can't wait to get using it!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 01, 2012, 01:55:39 am
Good to hear you finally got it - it is definitely a pleasure to use so you should enjoy yourself :D  Remember, because of bugs in 1.00.02, it's best if you avoid doing anything that writes to internal memory (self-cal, saving references waveforms or setups, etc.) until after you've updated.

All of the EEVBlog members zibadun, branadic, and EV have copies of the 1.00.05 firmware - you probably can get it from one of them. Just remember, because of the bugs, it's important you do the update during the boot process - and not from the menus - as detailed by drieg here: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 01, 2012, 10:09:36 pm
Thanks marmed!  I contacted a few of our great forum members, and have the firmware to update.  But I have some sad news regarding the update...

I followed the instructions from drieg and tried many times to start the update process during boot, but it would not enter "update mode."  Always, the system would complete boot, and then show a message of "new firmware detected, and select OK/CANCEL to do the update.  I select CANCEL, and power OFF, and ON again.

I tried about 6 times to start the update from boot; I pressed "HELP" at various stages during boot: immediately after power on before the logo is shown, and on other attempts when the logo is shown.  Sometimes I pressed "HELP" briefly, other times I held it longer, and sometimes I pressed it multiple times during when the logo is shown.  I never seemed able to enter the update process.

After many attempts, I think may be the only option is to select OK soft-button option from the GUI...so eventually I did.

The update started, and proceeded to 60%, but now it has stopped there.  :(

It has stopped at 60% for at least 15 mins now. 

One member suggest I start over, but I'm not sure the system will recover if I remove power during the boot process.  So, it is still plugged in.

I'm not sure what to do...I'm quite worried  :'(

Any suggestions?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 01, 2012, 11:01:50 pm
Well, it is booting now...but not without loss of trial options...

After 1 hour, no progress beyond 60%, so I powered it off.  I powered it on, and unsurprisingly, it did not boot.

Despite failed firmware update, if the boot loader were okay, then I assumed it may be possible to perform an update via the boot process, if I could get it to work.  So (in desperation and with no alternative option!) I tried again to press "HELP" button after power ON during boot.  I tried a couple of times, and again no luck, but then it worked!!!  I think it is worth stressing that HELP must be pressed immediately after ON button, and well before RIGOL logo appears.  It seems that the timing of pressing "HELP" button is very specific, so it may take several attempts to do it right.  If you find that the system boots normally despite pressing HELP button, just turn it off and back on, and try again!

This time, update continued with CH1 flashing, and eventually all LED were on.  I powered OFF, remove USB flash drive, and power ON.  System booted, okay, and System Info says:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0

FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

So, software version is updated, and hardware version has decreased! (hardware version was 1.1.0.0 before the update).

So, I'm lucky it is working now, but unfortunately I've lost all my trial options.  The "Installed" soft-button is grayed out under UTILITY->OPTIONS menu.  I hope I can get the trial options back from a new trial license from Rigol.

Also, I'm worried what other system information (calibration, etc.) might have been lost from the failed system update.  Does anyone know what are consequences of failed update on system info?

Edit: Emphasis added regarding timing of pressing HELP button.
Edit 2: Improved readability and added more emphasis!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 01, 2012, 11:07:10 pm
After many attempts, I think may be the only option is to select OK soft-button option from the GUI...so eventually I did.

The update started, and proceeded to 60%, but now it has stopped there.  :(

I'm not sure what to do...I'm quite worried  :'(

Any suggestions?

Sorry, my scope came with 01.00.05 installed, so I've never done the upgrade. But from what I've read elsewhere (about the DS4000 sticking during the upgrade), I'm afraid if it stays stuck the only remedy is sending it back to the dealer. You can try restarting the procedure, but the problem is that the bug in 01.00.02 (which overwrites critical data) can happen during the non-HELP method of upgrading - so you may have lost calibration data.

Edit: Just saw your message - clearly you lost at least the trial options - which wouldn't have happened with the normal HELP upgrade. I'd be a bit worried about calibration data - you should probably run some tests.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 01, 2012, 11:13:45 pm
So, software version is updated, and hardware version has decreased! (hardware version was 1.1.0.0 before the update).

Perhaps you misread this when you looked the first time? Everyone on the board who has posted their version numbers (and that was mostly people with 01.00.02 firmware) ALL had 1.0.1.0 hardware version.

Never mind, I'm wrong  :-[ - I just looked back and I see that branadic posted his hardware version as 1.1.0.0 --- well, since the hardware obviously doesn't change with a firmware upgrade, I guess Rigol just changed the hardware numbering scheme in the 01.00.05 firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 01, 2012, 11:21:25 pm
So, software version is updated, and hardware version has decreased! (hardware version was 1.1.0.0 before the update).

Perhaps you misread this when you looked the first time? Everyone on the board who has posted their version numbers (and that was mostly people with 01.00.02 firmware) ALL had 1.0.1.0 hardware version.

In this case, not possible --- the hardware version was definitely 1.1.0.0 before the upgrade. 

It is not true that everyone on 01.00.02 firmware had version 1.0.1.0.  For example, see branadic's post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/msg164386/#msg164386 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/msg164386/#msg164386)

This is the first time I noticed there was a hardware version 1.1.0.0, and that was the post I referred to when I was comparing the version numbers of my system.  I specifically noted that my hardware version number was 1.1.0.0 at the time.

branadic: can you check, what is your hardware version number now?  I will not be surprised it has also decreased to 1.0.1.0 as mine did.


Edit: no worries marmad --- we cross-posted!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 01, 2012, 11:45:38 pm
Also, I'm worried what other system information (calibration, etc.) might have been lost from the failed system update.  Does anyone know what are consequences of failed update on system info?

This test might give you some info about the integrity of your calibration data:

Let the scope warm up for +30 minutes.
Run a test signal to the scope and measure the voltage (it can be anything as long as it's a stable voltage).
Then disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Then reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.
Then repeat one more time:
Disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on December 02, 2012, 01:45:20 am
The update started, and proceeded to 60%, but now it has stopped there.  :(
It has stopped at 60% for at least 15 mins now. 

Yes, this is what happens if you don't do it during boot via HELP button on 01.00.02 :( There is a bug in this version, the trial options timer keeps checking installed options during update process and causes flash bank gets changed accidentally in certain time of update process (in your case 60%). This consequently causes that the part of new firmware goes into incorrect part of flash memory and can rewrite some important data (model information, factory calibration,...). FORTUNATELY in DS2 these data have its backups in another part of the memory and after next reboot are automatically recovered.

So, as you already found out, the solution is simple - to recover it with another FW update from the bootloader (through HELP button) and your unit should work fine.

As for the HW version, actually it didn't get downgraded, the new firmware just shows 5 digits instead of 4, there additional "0" on the second place:

Hardware version: 1.1.0.0 (FW 01.00.02)
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0 (FW 01.00.05)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 02, 2012, 02:13:43 am
Also, I'm worried what other system information (calibration, etc.) might have been lost from the failed system update.  Does anyone know what are consequences of failed update on system info?

This test might give you some info about the integrity of your calibration data:

Let the scope warm up for +30 minutes.
Run a test signal to the scope and measure the voltage (it can be anything as long as it's a stable voltage).
Then disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Then reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.
Then repeat one more time:
Disconnect all probes and run the self-cal.
Reconnect the test signal and check that your measurements match.

Thanks for the suggestion, marmad.  I have followed your idea, and here is my results:

1. I tried measuring 9V battery.  My Fluke 289 (calibrated < 1 year ago) would give 9.670V, and the Rigol 9.74V after self-cal #1, and 9.72V after self-cal #2.  The DS2072 was set to 2V/div.

I think it was not a good evaluation because of limited DAC resolution on DS2072.  So I did second test:

2.  I connected calibrated signal generator with 2mV amplitude square wave output (0 to 2mV), at 1kHz.  I set DS2072 to 500uV/div, with 100usec / division time-base to see a complete period of square wave.  I set the acquisition to average mode, with 8192 averages.  Wait some time for averages to accumulate.  The time-base information of the square wave (period, frequency) is spot on 1kHz.  For amplitude measurements: Vpp = 1.96mV (expect 2mV), and Avg. = 937uV (expect 1mV). 

I repeated the self-cal with probes detached, and the following is my second set of measurements, for the same test signal:

Vpp = 1.98mV (expect 2mV), and Avg. = 998uV (expect 1mV). 


With 8-bit vertical resolution, and 500uV/div * 8 divisions, then we have 4mV/256 = 15.625uV/bit.  So, the measurements are off 1 or 2 bits of resolution, and this could just be within spec of my signal generator.


I don't think I should expect better repeatability and precision, so perhaps my factory calibration data is still intact.

Anyone wish to do the above test and share their results?

Sparky
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 02, 2012, 02:43:42 am
Thank-you drieg for the additional information on system backup to recover from failed firmware updates in the DS2000 series.  It is a relief that the system factory calibration and other critical data was not lost.

It is also good to have some explanation about the change in hardware version!

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jeeff47 on December 02, 2012, 05:01:00 am
Hello everyone,

I wanted to let everyone know about my experiences. I also ordered the DS2072. I received it about a month ago and i am really impressed with it (for the most part).

Majority of the pros have already been mentioned here numerous times but the key reason why I like it are:
- Wide screen with the option to hide/show the menu on the side
- overall product has some solid hardware the unit is rigid and for the most part fairly portable.
- UI is fairly easy to navigate.

I found originally that as I also like resting my hand on the top of the unit and end up hitting the buttons  (like some of the other members pointed out). But I have gotten used to the scope and I do it far less frequently.

Also the selection knob is sometimes difficult to press but, if you go to other scopes in other brands you will also encounter this.

I have mixed feelings about the measure buttons being on the left side of the screen. I do like the easy access but as I am also accustomed to pressing a measure button. This is something that I will have to get used to.
 
my biggest pet peeves are:
(cons)
I do hear the fan while the unit is running, this may be because normally when using other scopes I have a lot of background noise and the only time I use the DS2072 is late at night after everyone has gone to bed so its very quiet. It may all be in my head but for the most part it isn't to distracting.

I really dislike the scope probes. I find that the hook connector pieces is easy to fall off leaving me looking at my measurement scratching my head and then realizing that I am not measuring anything.

I also noticed that the power button glows (fades on/off) when the unit isn't powered on. although it is cool at first I can see this distracting if I kept the scope on in my living room while watching a movie or something. A software option to turn this feature on/off would be great so that when its off the light doesn't come on for users who don't want it to.

I have also been in contact with Chris Armstrong from Rigol NA. Hes been great. I have spoken with him over the phone and I have also exchanged emails and he is been quick to respond. My distributor originally got me in touch with him and I have no real complaints with the service I have been given (so far :P).

I have also experienced the exact same issues that Sparky has regarding the new firmware download.

Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 02, 2012, 05:09:14 am

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.

Very nice sparky, glad your scope is Ok. What a day!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flyback on December 02, 2012, 10:05:45 pm
Greetings Everyone!

I'm a new kid on the block, new to the forum, and just received a DS2102 direct from Rigol on 11/30.  Great scope, even as I'm becoming familiar with its layout and functionality.  After reading so many posts, thanks to all for the "free education".  Quite a bunch of great folks on the forum, and thanks for sharing your thoughts, experiences and tips so freely,

I do have two questions:
1)  Is Rigol responsive in answering requests for firmware updates?  Despite others on the forum receiving scopes before me, it seems I have the original firmware: 00.00.01.  I was surprised about this, but so be it.  Rigol's website does not appear to point to any f/w downloads.
2) And from the "Gee I Wish I Had Read More Forum Posts" department, I wiped out my trials when doing a self-cal.  Strangely enough, they seems to re-appear from time to time, but the logic of WHEN they re-appear escapes me!  :-// 

Finally, thanks to Dave for offering this forum.  I just recently discovered Dave's Blog and I am thoroughly enjoying his reviews, teardowns, and "rants".  Somehow, he always leaves me smarter and smiling by the time I get to the end of a video.  With his own special style of delivery, even my wife looks forward to watching him!

Again, thanks to all ... I'm enjoying the ride!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 02, 2012, 10:37:23 pm
1)  Is Rigol responsive in answering requests for firmware updates?  Despite others on the forum receiving scopes before me, it seems I have the original firmware: 00.00.01.  I was surprised about this, but so be it.  Rigol's website does not appear to point to any f/w downloads.

Welcome to the forum... and to the group of owners of the new DS2000 series from Rigol  :)

To get your full version information, go to the trigger menu and set Edge, then press F7-F6-F7-Utility button combination quickly. Then check additional info under System > System Info. To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while in the trigger menu.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 02, 2012, 10:52:47 pm
To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while in the trigger menu.

The full version information also disappears, if you power off the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 05, 2012, 06:00:25 am

My simple tests following marmad's instructions seems consistent with factory calibration being okay.

Very nice sparky, glad your scope is Ok. What a day!

Thanks zibadun! Yes, that day had its moments!!  Was so relieved at the end of it!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 05, 2012, 06:17:29 am
Hi folks!

Just thought I would post an update here following my recent correspondence with Rigol NA.  I had emailed my dealer (Tequipment) to ask for a firmware update before receiving the 01.00.05 firmware revision from folks here.  My email was forwarded to Rigol NA, and I received a reply from one of their Applications Engineers who acknowledged the self-cal bug and mentioned the engineers are working on a fix.  They did not provide me with a 01.00.05 firmware update, even though I requested it specifically.  I also asked when the next firmware revision would be released, and how I can find out when it becomes available, but both questions went unanswered.  :(  It seems Rigol NA are specifically no longer releasing 01.00.05 (publicly, or on request), and that they are waiting for their engineers to wrap-up the next firmware revision.  Currently I'm waiting (hoping...) for a new trial license code.

I will update with more news as I hear it!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jeeff47 on December 05, 2012, 07:26:45 am
Hi Sparky,

I also spoke with Rigol NA. They also informed me that there engineers are working on a new release but were unsure of when that will occur. They may have not provided you with the firmware because they provided me with it and are now familiar with the fact that loading it through the menus is unsuccessful. I would also agree that they are probably waiting for a newer release.

They did ship me out a new unit overnight (which was great), but I am finding that the new unit does have a more stiff power button which is concerning (almost thought it was sticky and not popping back out). I also noticed that the calibration is a little off Measuring an average DC voltage of 3.43V on the new guy. My Fluke meter says 3.30V and I ended up doing the flash reload during startup and got the old unit up again (with no trails) and its reading 3.39V Source is 3.3V (maybe I am just being picky.

I ma shipping the old unit out first thing in the AM back to Rigol NA. I was impressed that they got me a unit so quickly (with the updated firmware already installed.

 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 05, 2012, 07:58:50 am
Hi Sparky,

I also spoke with Rigol NA. They also informed me that there engineers are working on a new release but were unsure of when that will occur. They may have not provided you with the firmware because they provided me with it and are now familiar with the fact that loading it through the menus is unsuccessful. I would also agree that they are probably waiting for a newer release.

They did ship me out a new unit overnight (which was great), but I am finding that the new unit does have a more stiff power button which is concerning (almost thought it was sticky and not popping back out). I also noticed that the calibration is a little off Measuring an average DC voltage of 3.43V on the new guy. My Fluke meter says 3.30V and I ended up doing the flash reload during startup and got the old unit up again (with no trails) and its reading 3.39V Source is 3.3V (maybe I am just being picky.

I ma shipping the old unit out first thing in the AM back to Rigol NA. I was impressed that they got me a unit so quickly (with the updated firmware already installed.

That's a good point; Rigol probably wont send out revised firmware if it is likely to cause them headaches if the update is not correctly applied...which can be a little tricky for the newcomer to get right (despite all the warnings/comments advising how to do it properly!)

One issue with your calibration test could be your vertical resolution settings (volts/div).  My understanding of how this works (someone please correct me if I'm wrong!) is the vertical scale is limited to 8-bits, and thus 2^8 = 256 quantization levels.  The vertical scale is 8 divisions high, and so the quantization error (smallest increment of voltage that can be differentiated) is 8 * (volts/div setting)  / 256.

So, the larger your volts/div, the larger the quantization error.  Depending on the setting you used --- and especially if you used different settings on each of your tests --- it might explain the difference in your measurements.  This is why, in my second test, I used the smallest volts/div setting possible (500 uV/div) to reduce quantization error; naturally I had to use a similarly small input (2 mV).

I would expect the Fluke to have a way higher resolution ADC, but I haven't researched that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flyback on December 05, 2012, 10:32:07 pm
Thanks to marmad, EV, Sparky, and jeeff47.

Using the "secret handshake" (special thanks to marmad & EV), I have confirmed the versioning for this scope received direct from Rigol on 11/30.
s/w ver: 00.00.01.00.02
h/w ver: 1.1.0.0
FPGA SPU:03.01.02
FPGA WPU: 00.06.00
FPGA CCU: 12.29.00
FPGA MCU: 00.05

Today I received an email reply from Chris Armstrong of Rigol confirming that an updated f/w is pending (but with no predicted timeframe for release).  In the interim, Rigol is not offering either a public nor beta release.  Likewise, there is not a current fix to safely return the option trials which I wiped out when doing the self-cal.  I guess it's time to practice some patience!

Thanks again for everyone's suggestions and comments.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 05, 2012, 11:09:59 pm
That's a good point; Rigol probably wont send out revised firmware if it is likely to cause them headaches if the update is not correctly applied...which can be a little tricky for the newcomer to get right (despite all the warnings/comments advising how to do it properly!)

The bug with updating the firmware is in the OLDER version - i.e. the one that's already installed on most people's scope (01.00.02) - not the newer version. So even if people don't upgrade to version 01.00.05 (or Rigol doesn't send out that version) the problem (of having to update via BOOT instead of the menus) will remain for everyone with 01.00.02 with the next publicly released version they try to install.

Today I received an email reply from Chris Armstrong of Rigol confirming that an updated f/w is pending (but with no predicted timeframe for release).

Well, I'm not sure what version Chris Armstrong is talking about, but your version (01.00.02) is at least one version behind what many of us are using (01.00.05).

Likewise, there is not a current fix to safely return the option trials which I wiped out when doing the self-cal.  I guess it's time to practice some patience!

I - and at least a few other DS2000 owners on this forum - have gotten replacement trial licenses from Rigol (or their dealers) because ours were expired prematurely by the self-cal bug. You should get this as well - in fact, getting 36 hours (2160 minutes) of free trial licenses is part of the package you paid for - and I would threaten to return the scope if you don't receive it. It's ridiculously easy and virtually cost-free for Rigol to give you this (they just generate a key based on your serial number) - and negligent if they don't replace a feature you paid for but lost due to their error (the bug).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 05, 2012, 11:30:22 pm
So, the larger your volts/div, the larger the quantization error.  Depending on the setting you used --- and especially if you used different settings on each of your tests --- it might explain the difference in your measurements.  This is why, in my second test, I used the smallest volts/div setting possible (500 uV/div) to reduce quantization error; naturally I had to use a similarly small input (2 mV).

I would expect the Fluke to have a way higher resolution DAC, but I haven't researched that.

Yes, absolutely - and not only that, but in reality, oscilloscopes have NEVER been great measurement devices (although they've certainly gotten better at it over the years - and easier to read with DSOs). They were conceived of more as a way to visualize what was happening in an invisible realm - and not so much for getting precise measurement data - as anyone who's tried to count grid lines on a tiny CRT quickly realized.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 05, 2012, 11:55:21 pm
. They were conceived of more as a way to visualize what was happening in an invisible realm - and not so much for getting precise measurement data - as anyone who's tried to count grid lines on a tiny CRT quickly realized.

I'm very  impressed by the boat load of waveform measurements when you push 'Show all'. And an old 465 tek is as well ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 06, 2012, 12:49:42 am
I'm very  impressed by the boat load of waveform measurements when you push 'Show all'. And an old 465 tek is as well ;)

Absolutely - and just one of the ways that a digital scope seduces you to turn a blind eye to it's blind time ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jeeff47 on December 06, 2012, 02:33:54 am
When I originally contacted Rigol about the Self Cal bug. They informed me they were not able to do anything about it aside from giving me the code to permanently unlock the scope features or to return it to Rigol for a replacement. In the end I ended up getting the replacement (the long way around).
Unfortunately I would assume that they wont be giving the "Trail" code out any longer to try to bypass people trying to abuse the system and if the customer really wanted the features unlocked again then they can return the unit as being defective.

Honestly, I would think it would be easier to just give the code out and once they generate it log it in a database at there facility so that you get "one free pass".

Marmad did you get your code from Rigol NA? have you expired it yet? If so have you tried the code a second time, and did it work?


When speaking with Chris he mentioned that the Rigol team was working on a new firmware that would correct/prevent the self cal bug. The vibe I got was that the code would prevent the self cal from erasing the trails and anybody who had already accidently erased them then the trails would be restored. I didn't get any additional information regarding any other improvements they might through into that release.
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 06, 2012, 08:30:39 am
The bug with updating the firmware is in the OLDER version - i.e. the one that's already installed on most people's scope (01.00.02) - not the newer version. So even if people don't upgrade to version 01.00.05 (or Rigol doesn't send out that version) the problem (of having to update via BOOT instead of the menus) will remain for everyone with 01.00.02 with the next publicly released version they try to install.

That makes sense; seems everyone getting scopes with revision 01.00.02 firmware is going to have to go through the BOOT update method at least once.

I - and at least a few other DS2000 owners on this forum - have gotten replacement trial licenses from Rigol (or their dealers) because ours were expired prematurely by the self-cal bug. You should get this as well - in fact, getting 36 hours (2160 minutes) of free trial licenses is part of the package you paid for - and I would threaten to return the scope if you don't receive it. It's ridiculously easy and virtually cost-free for Rigol to give you this (they just generate a key based on your serial number) - and negligent if they don't replace a feature you paid for but lost due to their error (the bug).

I sent Rigol my serial number, but so far no new trial serial (only a "were truly sorry" apology).  I've now asked specifically for new trial serial, and mentioned that it was part of the package I paid for.  In response, I received an automated "out of the office" reply...  This issue would be considered a manufacture defect and I should be able to exchange the scope at no cost.  I'm tempted to contact my dealer and ask for an exchange.  If I don't hear positive news by tomorrow morning, I may go this route.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 06, 2012, 12:31:13 pm
Unfortunately I would assume that they wont be giving the "Trail" code out any longer to try to bypass people trying to abuse the system
I'm not exactly sure how this could help people abuse the system - unless there is a bug in restarting the trial options (which is a possibility). If you mean 'abuse the system' in the sense of trying to crack their options code; in order to create a key generator, you have to get inside the scope's firmware and see exactly what math it's performing on the code in order to reverse engineer it. If you were dead set on trying to do this, you could just buy one of the option packages and use that key.

Marmad did you get your code from Rigol NA? have you expired it yet? If so have you tried the code a second time, and did it work?
I got my replacement trial license from my dealer - who requested it from Rigol for me (BTW, it took a little time to finally get it). It seems to me that this is a better approach to getting it - since the dealer has more pull with Rigol than an individual buyer - and of course, you have more pull with your dealer than you would with Rigol - since they are the ones who will have to deal initially with an exchange or a return.  I'm in the middle of house renovations, so I've had no time for the scope lately - so I haven't used my replacement license yet (I would want to have as much time as possible with the options). But my dealer tells me that it will reset the options to the 2160 minutes - and will only work once. But maybe there is an as-yet-unreported bug which allows the replacement trial license code to be reused over and over - but I've heard privately from at least one member that it didn't work a second time.

Anyway, this got me thinking about in which regions Rigol (or it's affiliated dealers) are dispensing either the 01.00.05 firmware or replacement trial licenses. I scoured the various threads here for info - and the first post I found referencing the 01.00.05 firmware was this one: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg155862/#msg155862 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg155862/#msg155862) - which mentions Rigol EU. I'm also located in the EU, so it makes me wonder if this version has not been officially released for NA. Would anyone who has gotten either an official copy of the 01.00.05 firmware (I don't mean from another board member) or a replacement trial license care to share where they're located? Perhaps the info can help other users leverage their respective dealers/Rigol into getting them as well.

But as I, and other members here, have pointed out - there are bugs (aside from the self-cal one) in the firmware (both 01.00.02 and 01.00.05) that appear to effect the appearance and disappearance of the trial options. I'm afraid, unfortunately, that Rigol is putting more energy into trying to squash these in their next official firmware release than into fixing what I consider to be the real problems or adding new features. But we'll see what happens.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on December 08, 2012, 09:40:19 am
I got my replacement trial license from my dealer - who requested it from Rigol for me (BTW, it took a little time to finally get it). It seems to me that this is a better approach to getting it - since the dealer has more pull with Rigol than an individual buyer - and of course, you have more pull with your dealer than you would with Rigol - since they are the ones who will have to deal initially with an exchange or a return.
True, better to ask your dealer, they should be able to apply for a new trial code for you.

... I haven't used my replacement license yet (I would want to have as much time as possible with the options). But my dealer tells me that it will reset the options to the 2160 minutes - and will only work once....
Actually it will add 2160 minutes to the current count ;)

But as I, and other members here, have pointed out - there are bugs (aside from the self-cal one) in the firmware (both 01.00.02 and 01.00.05) that appear to effect the appearance and disappearance of the trial options. I'm afraid, unfortunately, that Rigol is putting more energy into trying to squash these in their next official firmware release than into fixing what I consider to be the real problems or adding new features. But we'll see what happens.
As for the new firmware, Rigol says:
"R&D still haven't release the new version and we have made effort to promote this progress. I believe it will be released in this month."
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 08, 2012, 09:54:29 am
As for the new firmware, Rigol says:
"R&D still haven't release the new version and we have made effort to promote this progress. I believe it will be released in this month."

@drieg - Do you know if version 01.00.05 was released for North America (was it only in EU and Australia)? It seems as if most of the NA people here are getting units with 01.00.02 installed - and being told to wait for the next release.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 08, 2012, 10:36:39 pm
I seem to have found another bug in the DS2000 series. I don't have a lot of time at the moment to try to figure out it's exact parameters and limits, but basically there seems to be a bug which limits the trigger position when using fine Horizontal Scale adjustment at certain settings.

I was fooling around with replicating Dave's idea for Bode plotting (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-396-bode-plotting-on-your-osciloscope/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-396-bode-plotting-on-your-osciloscope/))with the scope - and I was sending a linear sweep into the scope and trying to fill the entire screen with a single sweep. That means you have to switch the Horizontal Scale knob to the fine adjustment - then change the scale until it approx. fills the screen - then move the trigger position until it's on the left edge of the screen.

But I found that when I was set to < 500ms scale, I couldn't move the trigger position fully left or right. The attached .pngs show the farthest left and farthest right I was able to move the trigger with a 440ms setting (the point where the waveform rises is the horizontal trigger postion). Not only that, but if you move the trigger position all the way left, and then use the fine HS adjust to go below 500ms (e.g. down to 498ms) the trigger postion jumps to the position shown in the farthest left .png

Perhaps someone else can test to see if they can replicate? When I have time I will investigate further.

Edit: Bug/problem described in detail below in next post.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 09, 2012, 08:40:28 am
R = 4.7 kOhm, C = 1 nF.
Sweep from 1Hz to 1MHz at 1 second.
Horisontal scale is 1000/14 = 71.43 ms, but it can be set only to 71.5 ms.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 09, 2012, 10:57:25 am
Thanks, EV - but your post isn't about the bug/problem I addressed.

After further study, I discovered what the problem is:

At any normal horizontal scale setting >= 20ms  (i.e. 20ms/50ms/100ms/200ms/500ms/1s/2s/5s/10s/20s/50s/100s/200s/500s/1ks)  the maximum/minimum horizontal trigger position (the orange D number in the upper right corner of the screen which reads 0.00000000ps when zeroed) is +10/-14x the current setting. So, for example, if you have the scale set to 50ms, the max/min amounts you can move the trigger position are left +500ms (50ms*10) or right -700ms (50ms*-14). But if you use the FINE scale adjust, the max/min position becomes locked to the next lower major division*10/-14 - instead of staying linked to whatever the actual setting is.  This can cause the trigger position to jump and/or become frozen (with the 'Parameters overrange!' message) in the middle of the display.

To see this effect clearly, set your horizontal scale to one of those mentioned above (e.g. 50ms), send in a signal, and move the trigger position as far as possible to the left (which, with the 50ms example, will be 500ms). That is what is shown in the attached BEFORE.png (note white H 50ms top left of screen - and orange D 500ms top right). Then switch to FINE adjust: Press -> [Horizontal] Menu -> ScaleAdjust -> Fine - and turn the horizontal scale knob just one notch clockwise. You will see your trigger position jump to the right of the screen (and be unable to be moved farther left). That is the AFTER.png (note white H 49.8ms top left of screen - and orange D 200ms top right).

Edit: I'm fairly certain that Rigol will again say that this behavior is by design - but, IMO, it's not very good design and it's rather annoying when your trigger position can't be moved to the edges of the display.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 09, 2012, 04:50:00 pm
At any normal horizontal scale setting >= 20ms  (i.e. 20ms/50ms/100ms/200ms/500ms/1s/2s/5s/10s/20s/50s/100s/200s/500s/1ks)  the maximum/minimum horizontal trigger position (the orange D number in the upper right corner of the screen which reads 0.00000000ps when zeroed) is +10x/-14x the current

You are right, but at the 20 ms scale position only the right side is limited. In my pictures with the scale value 71.5 ms, it was possble to move the trigger mark to the left or right side.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 09, 2012, 05:07:59 pm
You are right, but at the 20 ms scale position only the right side is limited. In my pictures with the scale value 71.5 ms, it was possble to move the trigger mark to the left or right side.

Yes, if the scale is set to 71.5ms, that means, according to the formula I mentioned in my previous post, that you are limited to +10/-14x the next lowest major division (50ms) which means you can set the trigger to +500ms or -700ms. In your images, you have the trigger set to -502.4ms, which is well within the range.

Sometimes the range will allow you to reach the edge of the display - I'm not saying that it's not possible with some FINE scale settings. What I am saying is that there are many many FINE scale settings when you can't get the trigger point moved all the way to one or both edges - try it with a 42.6ms scale setting - or 99.5ms or 196ms or 4.9s or etc, etc.

Obviously, this isn't a serious issue - just another annoying one. The worst case scenario with this 'bug' is when you're trying to adjust a signal to fill the display and you need to use the FINE scale adjust, and then you can't move the image anymore because you're arbitrarily locked to the previously mentioned limits. I don't understand why Rigol doesn't just use the +10/-14 rule applied to whatever the actual setting is (i.e. if you are set to 71.5ms, you can move to +715/-1001ms).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 09, 2012, 05:31:18 pm
Yes, this is absolutely a bug and should be corrected in the future firmware. Who tells it to Rigol?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 09, 2012, 05:42:22 pm
Yes, this is absolutely a bug and should be corrected in the future firmware. Who tells it to Rigol?

Well, I posted here and also emailed drieg about it - he normally reports bugs to Rigol. But, as I mentioned earlier, Rigol will undoubtedly say that it's not a bug and 'is by design', so we'll just have to wait and see if they do anything about it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on December 11, 2012, 08:01:14 pm
Yes, I reported this bug to Rigol, let's see if they can fix it..

@drieg - Do you know if version 01.00.05 was released for North America (was it only in EU and Australia)? It seems as if most of the NA people here are getting units with 01.00.02 installed - and being told to wait for the next release.
I don't think Rigol makes any difference between EU and NA, even here in EU, you still get new units with 01.00.02 installed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 11, 2012, 08:06:58 pm
I don't think Rigol makes any difference between EU and NA, even here in EU, you still get new units with 01.00.02 installed.

Well, I only asked that because it appears that some people are saying that their NA dealers are telling them that there is no new firmware to be had yet (after 01.00.02).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 12, 2012, 04:51:53 pm
Here is the current set of full (strange) rules that apply to maximum/minimum trigger positions (offsets) with various horizontal scale settings on the DS2000 series (with MEMORY set to AUTO):


If the horizontal scale is set to any COARSE setting from 2ns to 10ms, then the trigger can be offset from +1.0s to -14*current COARSE setting
Example: 10us = +1s/-140us

If the horizontal scale is set to any COARSE setting of 20ms to 1ks, then the trigger can be offset from +10*current COARSE setting to -14*current COARSE setting
Example: 5s = +50s/-70s

If the horizontal scale is set to any FINE setting of 2.05ns to 19.90ms, then the trigger can be offset from +1.0s to -14*next lowest COARSE setting
Example: 19.9ns = +1s/-140ns

If the horizontal scale is set to any FINE setting of 20.20ms to 995.0s, then the trigger can be offset from +10*next lowest COARSE setting to -14*next lowest COARSE setting
Example: 49.8ms = +200ms/-280ms


Clearly these limits are tied to the 14M of standard memory - and I haven't tried yet to see if they are the same with specific sample depth settings.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 14, 2012, 08:51:27 pm
Hello folks, things have been nutty this past week --- no time to write --- but here I am now :)

I followed marmad's earlier suggestion of going through my distributor to get a new trial license code, and that worked :)  The same Rigol tech replied to me with new code within 24hrs.  I've no doubt the process was accelerated when I asked my distributor if I could exchange my unit for a new one because I have not received what I paid for!

Also, to follow-up on on what marmad and drieg have commented about firmware releases, I concur it appears Rigol NA are avoiding releasing 01.00.05 firmware.  I have not heard anything further from Rigol NA, but it appears they prefer to release only the new revision and squash as many bugs as possible with one update; this seems reasonable if the new revision is soon-to-be released.  I just noticed on the Rigol NA website: "DS2000 DS4000 DS6000 Firmware Upgrade Procedure" in the FAQ section of DS2072 page, however no PDF file is listed yet. 

(On DG4000 series page, there is PDF file of firmware upgrade describing "boot" update method --- I think we can expect similar for DS2000 series.)

@marmad: Thanks for your detailed investigation of the trigger positioning bug --- it does seem an annoyance, as very common that one wants to use the entire width of the display to see their signal.  I will see this myself, soon.  Thanks to drieg for reporting the bug to Rigol :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 14, 2012, 09:25:51 pm
Thanks for the report, Sparky. Interesting to hear of Rigol NA's stance regarding the interim 01.00.05 firmware.

I've started a new thread here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/?topicseen#msg171575), called 'Software, tips, and tricks for Rigol DS2000/4000/6000 UltraVision DSOs'. I've posted my first release of some Rigol UltraVision utilities there - there will be much more to follow in the future; whenever I can find time.

Please: if you try the software, do me a favor and give some feedback. Remember: ALL feedback is good - and negative feedback is often the most useful. Bugs? Crashes? Questions? Comments? Broken, missing, or desired features? Anything will be helpful. There aren't that many of us UltraVision users yet - so every bit helps!!  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 15, 2012, 09:14:58 am
I found another bug in the DS2000 firmware: again, nothing major - just another annoyance.

I have 4063 recorded frames playing back with 'repeat' set - and every time the scope gets to frame 1302, it loops back to frame 1 and starts playing from there again. If I playback with 'repeat' off, it plays until frame 4063 correctly. So the 'repeat' playback of recorded frames doesn't seem to work correctly all of the time. I'm not sure what the parameters are but I think it has to do with the total number of frames.

To see this effect, go to Record Open and record a large amount of frames (i.e. set your horizontal scale to a fast setting so that you're recording > 2000 frames). Then stop recording, go to playback, set 'repeat' on, and start playing it. It will likely loop back to frame 1 without ever reaching the final frame.

EDIT: Moved the full bug list of the current firmware to the first post of this thread for easy locating.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 16, 2012, 07:19:35 pm
Teneyes: did you try playing back different groups of frames you'd recorded? I'm wondering why you wouldn't see this bug - I saw it happen with several different groups of frames, I wonder if it's a new bug introduced in 01.00.05?

Can someone else running 01.00.05 test for the playback looping bug? It's very easy to check (and to see when it happens).
Title: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: TP on December 16, 2012, 10:32:09 pm
(A couple of users suggested I repost in this thread)

I bought a Rigol DS2072 to replace my 35 year old Phillips PM3212 that just died.  I've been evaluating the High Res mode and it does work.  I programmed my computers 16 bit DAC to produce a sine wave with a tiny 0.7 LSB blip on it, much like the Agilent video posted earlier (in the other thread).  The Rigol could easily resolve the blip in High Res mode despite the fact that it was only 0.7 LSB of the 8-bit ADC.*  The first figure shows the High Res trace blown up.  This trace was taken 100 mV/div and 2 ms/div and blown up post acquisition to 5 mV/div.  The sub LSB blip is easily resolvable.  Of course, for a repetitive signal you could also just turn up the sensitivity to 5 mV/div and hunt for the blip with the offset and time/div and this is shown in the second figure. 

Of course, the extra resolution you get from boxcar averaging doesn't mean much if the DNL (differential non-linearity) of the ADC is not good, so I used the ramp and histogram method to measure DNL.  The results are that it's pretty good: only +-0.15 LSB (see third image).  I also did a best line fit deviation and the error is somewhat larger at +-0.5 LSB.  (This is very similar to INL, integrated non-linearity, but it wasn't exactly calculated by integrating the DNL, it's just the deviation from a straight line fit to the ramp signal.  INL specs are always worse than DNL, but the refer more to absolute accuracy not the ability to resolve small signals.)  Note these are upper limits as it depends on the test signal generated by my computers 16-bit DAC being perfect.

I also measured the noise on the 500uV/div scale as 80uV RMS in Normal acquisition mode and 40uV RMS with the High Res mode, both with the 20MHz BW limit on.  With the 20MHz BW limit off and Normal mode I got 100uV RMS.  These are all with the input shorted with a 50 ohm terminator.

*When calculating LSB remember that the 8 vertical divisions are not the full range of the ADC; it's actually 10.24 divisions with headroom off the top and bottom of the screen plot region.

Other notes/problems: 

Inputting a pulse that should have a rise time of 5 ns (according to the specs for the chip I used) gives a rise time of 7.1 ns on the scope.  That means the scope rise time is 5 ns which matches the 70 MHz spec.

The "Measure" box does appear to only work with the screen trace data, but the 6-digit frequency "Counter" works directly from the signal (with the trip point defined by the trigger level).  On a 1 MHz input signal the Rigol "Counter" matched my external frequency counter by 10 Hz.  (Of course the frequency counter is 40 years old so who knows if it's accurate.)  On my scope the "Measure" box can get hung requiring a reboot.  If I input a 1 MHz signal and resolve the cycles the "Measure" box gives correct data.  If I slow down the time/div, say to see modulation of the RF carrier, the "Measure" box will get confused and quotes, say, freq > something.  If I speed up the time/div to see the 1 MHz cycles again the "Measure" box will remain hung with bad data and nothing I tried gets it working again except a power down.

I was unable to get the scope to save screen captures to the USB stick from the "Storage" menu; it just saves a blank screen with no trace.  It will save correctly to the USB if I press the "Print" button (no printer attached).  It also saves data in CSV mode properly.  Note that even if you take data in High Res mode the data saved externally in CSV mode is still 8-bit quantized.  High Res cleans up the data saved, but it's still 8-bit and no extra precision shows up in the file (while it does show up on the screen).

All in all I like this scope a lot.  Note that I'm an old person who was used to analog scopes and I've had a dislike for digital scopes for quite awhile, so I'm a bit hard on them.

Edit: added caveat
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: marmad on December 16, 2012, 11:31:48 pm
Thanks for reposting, TP, and welcome.

The "Measure" box does appear to only work with the screen trace data, but the 6-digit frequency "Counter" works directly from the signal (with the trip point defined by the trigger level).

This is typical of low cost DSOs - including the Agilent 2000/3000X.

Quote
On my scope the "Measure" box can get hung requiring a reboot.  If I input a 1 MHz signal and resolve the cycles the "Measure" box gives correct data.  If I slow down the time/div, say to see modulation of the RF carrier, the "Measure" box will get confused and quotes, say, freq > something.  If I speed up the time/div to see the 1 MHz cycles again the "Measure" box will remain hung with bad data and nothing I tried gets it working again except a power down.

I haven't noticed this on mine - I'll check tomorrow to see if I can replicate it.

Quote
I was unable to get the scope to save screen captures to the USB stick from the "Storage" menu; it just saves a blank screen with no trace.

I certainly don't have this problem on my DS2072 - I've saved many captures to sticks. Have you tried various sizes and makes of sticks?

Would you mind reporting what versions of the firmware/hardware,etc you are running? You can get detailed version info by following these instructions: go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger, then press F7-F6-F7-Utility buttons one after another quickly. Then check additional info under Utility > System > System Info. To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while inside the Trigger menu - or reboot the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 16, 2012, 11:51:39 pm
OK, I caught it, before I was only recording 1 group . this time I recorded 2 groups , frames 1- 450 , and 451-2449, and have space for 8127.
and yes playback plays and loops only in the 1-450 group , but if I move into the second group with the Wavefunder 'big' knob then go to run from pause.It will play to 2449 then jump into the 1-450 group and loop there.
At times the Run/Stop on top was different from the '||>'  run/pause button, one would cause the playback right to 8127 before looping back to 1, never tried 3 or more  groups.
 What is the best use of Run/stop and '||>' buttons???

@Teneyes: Wait a minute - I'm totally confused. You can actually record separate groups of frames individually - while retaining the others in memory? I haven't tried this - when I mentioned 'groups' in my previous post, I was only referring to recording a bunch of frames - then trying to loop them repeatedly - then recording another bunch of frames - then trying to loop them, etc, etc. A large number of frames recorded with Record Open don't loop correctly on my DSO.

But probably we should start by defining WHICH type of recording we're doing when we make these tests; I'm not sure if all of your tests were performed with Record Open. I have ONLY used the Record Open function and not the normal Record function. Although both functions create frames which can be played back - they use different buttons (and SCPI commands - it's definitely kind of a mess) to perform certain functions, and since Record Open continually loops while recording, overwriting previous frames, it's quite likely that it might have bugs that are not present in the normal Record.

Anyway the bug which I've reported in the earlier post (and is still unconfirmed by someone else with 01.00.05 firmware) involves playing back repeatedly all frames captured in Record Open mode. It's VERY easy to test this with the software I posted in the other thread - 3 mouse clicks. Could someone please give it a try? When playing back on repeat, keep your eye on Rigol's menu which lists end frame and current frame. If your scope has the bug mine does, you will see the current frame jump to 1 before it reaches the end frame.
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: TP on December 17, 2012, 12:25:11 am


I certainly don't have this problem on my DS2072 - I've saved many captures to sticks. Have you tried various sizes and makes of sticks?

Would you mind reporting what versions of the firmware/hardware,etc you are running? You can get detailed version info by following these instructions: go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger, then press F7-F6-F7-Utility buttons one after another quickly. Then check additional info under Utility > System > System Info. To escape from this "special" mode, do again  F7-F6-F7-Utility while inside the Trigger menu.

I tried it on a different USB stick and it worked this time.  Then I tried it on the original USB stick and it also worked.  Bizarre, as it failed repeatedly before.

Which are the F7 & F6 "Utility" buttons?  You mean switch to the Utility menu and hit the Self Cal - System - Self Cal or stay in the "Trigger" Menu and hit the bottom -second from bottom- bottom button in that menu (both blank)?  Actually, that second one didn't work.  FW just reports 00.00.01.
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 12:28:29 am
I tried it on a different USB stick and it worked this time.  Then I tried it on the original USB stick and it also worked.  Bizarre, as it failed repeatedly before.

Well, good that its working in any case.

Quote
Which are the F7 & F6 "Utility" buttons?  You mean switch to the Utility menu and hit the Self Cal - System - Self Cal or stay in the "Trigger" Menu and hit the bottom -second from bottom- bottom button in that menu (both blank)?  Actually, that second one didn't work.  FW just reports 00.00.01.

Yes, F6 & F7 refer to the sixth and seventh unlabeled right menu keys - they have no function in the Trigger menu. So, while in Trigger menu, you press 'Menu7' then 'Menu6' then 'Menu7' then the 'Utility' button - but do it fast. If it doesn't work, try again faster.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on December 17, 2012, 02:04:46 am
FW 00.00.01.00.02
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 01:43:43 pm
On my scope the "Measure" box can get hung requiring a reboot.  If I input a 1 MHz signal and resolve the cycles the "Measure" box gives correct data.  If I slow down the time/div, say to see modulation of the RF carrier, the "Measure" box will get confused and quotes, say, freq > something.  If I speed up the time/div to see the 1 MHz cycles again the "Measure" box will remain hung with bad data and nothing I tried gets it working again except a power down.

@TP: I was unable to replicate this error on my scope, either using the individual Frequency measurement or the 'Measure All' box. I have to conclude that it's either a firmware version 01.00.02 bug - or that there was an added variable in your setup/scope settings that I don't know about that provoked the bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 17, 2012, 06:59:35 pm
Anyway the bug which I've reported in the earlier post (and is still unconfirmed by someone else with 01.00.05 firmware) involves playing back repeatedly all frames captured in Record Open mode. It's VERY easy to test this with the software I posted in the other thread - 3 mouse clicks. Could someone please give it a try? When playing back on repeat, keep your eye on Rigol's menu which lists end frame and current frame. If your scope has the bug mine does, you will see the current frame jump to 1 before it reaches the end frame.

Hi marmad, as your RUU software is working via USB for me (though I would still like LAN to work), I just checked this out on my scope (same 01.00.05 firmware).

I can confirm the bug: when on normal play (without repeat) all frames play back (same as when using the navigation knobs on the unit).  When I enable "repeat" (or press the Pause|Play button on the unit) the current frame jumps to 1 before it reaches the end.  When I press Stop button (either RUU software or on the unit) it jumps to the last frame.

Definitely a bug, and would be great to have this forwarded to our friend drieg for Rigol's attention!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 07:45:13 pm
Hi marmad, as your RUU software is working via USB for me (though I would still like LAN to work), I just checked this out on my scope (same 01.00.05 firmware).

I can confirm the bug: when on normal play (without repeat) all frames play back (same as when using the navigation knobs on the unit).  When I enable "repeat" (or press the Pause|Play button on the unit) the current frame jumps to 1 before it reaches the end.  When I press Stop button (either RUU software or on the unit) it jumps to the last frame.

Definitely a bug, and would be great to have this forwarded to our friend drieg for Rigol's attention!

Thank you again, Sparky - you are a developers delight! Just for that, I have fixed the problems with the LAN connection for you and posted the new version over at the other thread  ;)

One thing to note: if you're planning to save a bunch of captured frames, the speed of USB vs. LAN becomes significant. For example, a quick test on my system shows elapsed time for saving 6 frames as follows: USB = 15.2 seconds / LAN = 36 seconds  :P
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 08:18:54 pm
I can confirm the bug: when on normal play (without repeat) all frames play back (same as when using the navigation knobs on the unit).  When I enable "repeat" (or press the Pause|Play button on the unit) the current frame jumps to 1 before it reaches the end.  When I press Stop button (either RUU software or on the unit) it jumps to the last frame.

Just did some more testing, and it's a bug that's limited to frames recorded while in Open mode - it does not seem to affect frames recorded in normal Record mode.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 17, 2012, 08:52:17 pm
@TP, re "Measure" , I have FW 1.00.02  and measuring the 1kHz Test, I get Freq =1.000KHz with scan set up to 5ms/div, that is 5 pulses per div.
 Now at 10 ms/div ,IE 10 pulses , DSO shows Freq > 1.000kHz
 and  at 20 ms/div ,IE 20 pulses , DSO shows Freq > 0.833kHz
 and  at 50 ms/div ,IE 50 pulses , DSO shows Freq = ****
BUT
    by pushing <SCALE>  and going into Zoom mode , then narrowing the Zoom back to 5.000ms the Freq = 1.000kHz , BUT no Hanging of DSO
  I will next try your test with a Modulated source at 1MHz
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 17, 2012, 09:37:20 pm
A simple test to check for the 'looping' bug on the DS2000 - without using my RUU software - which makes it easier - but could make you think my software is causing it  ;D

1) Set scale to 2ms/div (this allows for just 6 frames to be recorded - or it might be different on your scope due to memory settings - if so, select a scale that gives <10 frames)
2) Go to Utility -> Record -> Mode -> Open
3) Press 'Run/Stop" to stop recording.
4) Go to Utility -> Record -> Mode -> Playback
5) Set 'Interval' to 500ms
6) Set 'Play Mode' to loop.
7) Press '|| >' button and watch 'Current Frame' counter on Menu as it tries to loop. For me, sometimes it will count 1,2,3,4,5,6 - sometimes 1,2,6 - sometimes 1,6 - sometimes just 6! Or any other possible permutation... I can't see any pattern to the bug.

To quickly repeat test over and over, just repeat:
8 ) Press '[]' to stop playback.
9 ) Press '[]' again to enter 'Record Open' mode.
10) Press 'Run/Stop' to record.
11) Press 'Run/Stop' again to stop.
12) Press '|| >' to playback.

I get a different 'pattern' of looping with almost every test  :P

I have already sent this on to drieg for reporting to Rigol. They have confirmed the previously reported trigger setting bug and plan to fix it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 18, 2012, 12:27:24 am
Record open, playback in loop mode Interval 500mS , I get  Frames 1,2, 6 allways
like Marmad
I changed mem.Depth to 1.4Mpts and get 62frames max.  then playback
I get all frames 1-62.
I am using normal trigger , and touch finger for 60Hz and touch test 1KHz for  half of the frames .

Oops
  now looping differently
   1-20   all 60Hz then   21 start of 1kHz  then JUMP to frame  62 1KHz end of Frames ,then Loops to 1

BUT if I use waveFinder knob , it goes to pause and if I scan to Frame 23 and "RUN" then
displays 23-62 then Loops back to 1,

If I 'wavefind' to Frame 22 and Press 'RUN' in JUMPS to 61 and loops to 1

Seems like Frames 22 causes the jump to End ,Frame 62
Bugging!!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 19, 2012, 03:41:40 am
Record open, playback in loop mode Interval 500mS , I get  Frames 1,2, 6 allways like Marmad

Thanks for confirming the bug in 01.00.02, Teneyes.
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: TP on December 19, 2012, 07:04:57 am
On my scope the "Measure" box can get hung requiring a reboot.  If I input a 1 MHz signal and resolve the cycles the "Measure" box gives correct data.  If I slow down the time/div, say to see modulation of the RF carrier, the "Measure" box will get confused and quotes, say, freq > something.  If I speed up the time/div to see the 1 MHz cycles again the "Measure" box will remain hung with bad data and nothing I tried gets it working again except a power down.

@TP: I was unable to replicate this error on my scope, either using the individual Frequency measurement or the 'Measure All' box. I have to conclude that it's either a firmware version 01.00.02 bug - or that there was an added variable in your setup/scope settings that I don't know about that provoked the bug.

Well, I can't replicate it now either.  That first day the scope was definitely acting weird.. maybe first day jitters :).  Anyway, it works perfectly now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 19, 2012, 07:11:24 pm
OK, I caught it, before I was only recording 1 group . this time I recorded 2 groups , frames 1- 450 , and 451-2449, and have space for 8127.
and yes playback plays and loops only in the 1-450 group , but if I move into the second group with the Wavefunder 'big' knob then go to run from pause.It will play to 2449 then jump into the 1-450 group and loop there.

@Teneyes - I've been trying to do what you mentioned here, but no luck.
I set scale to 1us = 4065 frames.
First I record all 4064 frames.
Then I change end frame to 1000 and record 1 - 1000.
But how can you move from 1 group to the other? The scope seems to only let me playback 1 -1000 - and the big Navigation Knob won't let me move out of that group.

I can't see how it's possible to have two groups of frames recorded - and move between them - because you can't specify a 'start frame' for recording - only an 'end frame'.
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 High Res mode and other notes
Post by: marmad on December 19, 2012, 07:40:39 pm
Well, I can't replicate it now either.  That first day the scope was definitely acting weird.. maybe first day jitters :).  Anyway, it works perfectly now.

It might be a certain hard-to-repeat selection of settings and/or inputs - if you see it again, please note down as many variables (scope settings, etc) as possible. In any case, I'm glad it's working for you now  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on December 20, 2012, 02:27:21 am
A simple test to check for the 'looping' bug on the DS2000 - <cut>

I can confirm that my scope does the same as yours in Record Open mode and that it works properly in straight record mode (i.e. just pressing the record button).  I also get 7 frames in Record and only 6 in Record Open.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 20, 2012, 08:43:30 am
Hi. I am new to this forum. Thanks for some very interesting posts on the DS2000 series. I've just ordered a DS2022 thanks to this information. I'm wondering if the trial feature timing is based on how many hours the scope is on, or if it's a real-time-clock from when I turn the scope on the first time. So, basically will turning it off make it last longer? Thanks.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 20, 2012, 10:05:28 am
@larsie, Yes the trial version timer is only the DSO ON time, so when the wife calls be sure to shut it off. Oops lost another 200 minutes :) ,Enjoy.  and Watch the Self-Cal feature as it removes the trial version  options! |O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 20, 2012, 10:28:24 am
. I've just ordered a DS2022 thanks to this information. ...

Maybe you mean DS2202?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 20, 2012, 10:31:45 am
. I've just ordered a DS2022 thanks to this information. ...
Maybe you mean DS2202?

Oops... yes  :) :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on December 21, 2012, 07:33:12 am
I have a question about RMS voltage measurement.  I'm checking out my brand new DS2072, which I chose based on all of the good info on the forum.  Either I'm doing something wrong or the RMS measurement function doesn't work very well.  Here's the setup: Channel 1 connected to the scope's calibration square wave, probe on x10, vertical 100 mV/division, horizontal 100 uSec/division, DC coupling.  V min  reads -4.0 mV and V max is 308 mV.  These are ok.  V rms reads 211 mV, which is bogus.  I think it should be 156 mV.  Am I maybe doing something incorrectly?   With AC coupling the RMS value is closer but still quite a bit off.  I just got the scope from Tequipment, software version is 00.00.01.00.02 .
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 21, 2012, 08:21:02 am
I think it might be correct. Isn't the formula Vrms= Vpk*sqrt(f*T) for a positive square wave? Maybe not?

Edit: I think I mean Vp / sqrt(2)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 21, 2012, 12:02:35 pm
I have a question about RMS voltage measurement.  I'm checking out my brand new DS2072, which I chose based on all of the good info on the forum.  Either I'm doing something wrong or the RMS measurement function doesn't work very well.  Here's the setup: Channel 1 connected to the scope's calibration square wave, probe on x10, vertical 100 mV/division, horizontal 100 uSec/division, DC coupling.  V min  reads -4.0 mV and V max is 308 mV.  These are ok.  V rms reads 211 mV, which is bogus.  I think it should be 156 mV.  Am I maybe doing something incorrectly?   With AC coupling the RMS value is closer but still quite a bit off.  I just got the scope from Tequipment, software version is 00.00.01.00.02 .
As far as I can tell, it's reasonably accurate (which is about the best you can say about most measurements on an oscilloscope):  The calibration signal is a 3V 1kHz positive square wave with a 500us duration = 2.121Vrms.

Check it with this online calculator (http://www.daycounter.com/Calculators/RMS-Calculator.phtml).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on December 21, 2012, 07:50:17 pm
As far as I can tell, it's reasonably accurate (which is about the best you can say about most measurements on an oscilloscope):  The calibration signal is a 3V 1kHz positive square wave with a 500us duration = 2.121Vrms.
Thanks.  I feel like I'm at an AA meeting having to say "I'm an electrical engineer and I don't know how RMS works".  It has always seemed intuitive to me that a square wave with its minimum voltage at zero has the same RMS value as a square wave symmetric about zero.  Now I see that the math says otherwise, and I even found a couple of web sites that incorrectly agreed with me.  I think it has to do with the DC component, it's just hard to suddenly break with decades of wrong thinking.  So it's correct that the RMS value of the calibration signal is different with AC coupling vs. DC coupling.  The scope's calculation isn't stellar accuracy, but close enough for my purposes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 21, 2012, 08:06:38 pm
Thanks.  I feel like I'm at an AA meeting having to say "I'm an electrical engineer and I don't know how RMS works".  It has always seemed intuitive to me that a square wave with its minimum voltage at zero has the same RMS value as a square wave symmetric about zero.  Now I see that the math says otherwise, and I even found a couple of web sites that incorrectly agreed with me.  I think it has to do with the DC component, it's just hard to suddenly break with decades of wrong thinking.  So it's correct that the RMS value of the calibration signal is different with AC coupling vs. DC coupling.  The scope's calculation isn't stellar accuracy, but close enough for my purposes.

Don't worry - most of us here - especially myself - have posted many things that we either missed, didn't understand in the first place, or still don't fully understand :)  Just remember that most lower cost DSOs perform measurements on the display data (not the raw sampled data) so the more that the event you're trying to measure fills (but doesn't overflow) the display, the more accurate it will be - and if you need super-accurate measurements, break out a DMM or another instrument. The exception to this is the hardware frequency counter (under the 'Measure' menu) which doesn't care if one or more cycles fill the screen.

BTW, one limitation of the measurements is the number of digits - limited to 3 on the display. I've already written software which pulls chosen measurements to the PC screen - while allowing you to set the number of digits of accuracy up to 6 (see attachment in post below). I think all measurements are stored inside the scope as 64-bit double-precision floating-point numbers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 23, 2012, 11:02:59 pm
I put an Marconi signal generator(2019a) on my ds 2072, ( 70 mhz  to the book ) and these were the results,

112 mhz -3 db at 100 milliVolts, the rms on the scoop 70 mV
175 mhz -6 db
232 mhz -9 db
292 mhz -12 db
349 mhz -15 db still triggering and rms still working.
403 mhz -18db
437 mhz -20 db still good trigger and stable
497 mhz game over

Very interesting... thanks for that info!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 01:01:51 pm
Anyone who can verify ??

I can't verify your scientific data (no adequate signal generator), but if you want anecdotal evidence that the 2072, 2102, and 2202 are identical in terms of hardware, I can tell you that I've seen a 'firmware modified' 2072 running and behaving precisely like a 2202.

Merry Xmas!

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 01:14:03 pm
BTW, for those wanting to hack their 2072 (or 2102) to a 2202, I imagine the trick is to figure out how to change the backup copy of the data. Unlike the DS1000, the DS2000 series keep their vital information (such as model number) backed up in another section of memory (with, I assume, a checksum - or something similar). It appears that if the bootloader sees that the normal copy of the information has been corrupted (or changed), it reverts to the backup copy.

EDIT: As clever as Rigol is at making good-quality, inexpensive test equipment - I don't think (luckily for us) that they're very clever at creating hacking preventive measures :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 03:26:53 pm
The scope's calculation isn't stellar accuracy, but close enough for my purposes.

Attached is an image of the scope displaying the RMS of the calibration square wave (with 3 digits of resolution) - with an inset snipped from my PC display showing the actual measurement read from the DSO with SCPI (in scientific notation) and displayed with 6 digits of resolution.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 25, 2012, 03:56:05 pm
Rise time measured with tunnel diode pulse generator for Rigol DS2202. Generator is connected with BNC cable and 50 ohm terminator. Average value is 1.56 ns. It gives bandwith: 350 / 1.56 = 224 MHz (in specs given 200 MHz).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 06:01:26 pm
...and between the 2202 is the 2 nsec timebase.

And the 100MHz BW limit setting - which you would think would be set "ON" all the time on the 2072/2102.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on December 25, 2012, 06:23:04 pm
The rise time of a 200 MHz sine wave just is what it is, it's not telling you anything about the bandwidth of the scope. You can infer the scope's bandwidth by either measuring the rise time of a square pulse, or by measuring the displayed amplitude when you feed a sine wave into the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 25, 2012, 06:27:20 pm


And the 100MHz BW limit setting - which you would think would be set "ON" all the time on the 2072/2102.
[/quote]

If that was the case,
the 2072 has a 20 Mhz limit knob, that gives at 40 Mhz -6 dB and on 80 Mhz -12 dB,
translated to a limit on 100 Mhz, should give at least -6 db on 200 Mhz, but that is
not what i measured, i got -3 dB on 200 Mhz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 06:32:57 pm
////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
*****************************Special XMAS Post! (Now Redacted!)*****************************
\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\

This hasn't been discussed very much in the forum, perhaps because we don't want to give away too much
info to Rigol, but ?????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????? and I have to assume that
Rigol MUST be aware of this 'problem'. And I want to encourage people to buy one of these DS2000s NOW,
because the bigger the user base - the more knowledge (and utility) all of us will have. So... for those of you
on the fence about buying one of these scopes, let me just confirm that there is a bug in the current firmware
version(s) which allows you to ??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????. Think of it as a
Xmas present to early adopters - those of us who normally suffer through the early hardware and/of firmware
revisions with little to no appreciation  ;)  So go buy the damn scope  :D

I'm not going to write publicly about methods for invoking this bug (and I hope others won't either) - since I
don't want to give Rigol any extra help in squashing it - and since it seems fairly easy to figure it out. But if
you're an owner - and you've been unable to suss it out - I'm happy to pass on my info to you if/once you've
been posting here for a short while - just PM me.

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EDIT: Xmas is over.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 25, 2012, 07:42:39 pm
For comparison here is rise time with Tektronix TDS3032. It has 50 ohm input. So no terminator is needed. Rise time is 1.137 ns and it gives bandwidth 308 MHz (in specs it is 300 MHz). Overshoot is only 2.6% (Rigol had 5.0 %).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 25, 2012, 07:55:49 pm
...and between the 2202 is the 2 nsec timebase.

And the 100MHz BW limit setting - which you would think would be set "ON" all the time on the 2072/2102.

don't give rigol any ideas ;)

I do know FFT function on 2072 works way way beyond 70 Mhz (posted a picture somewhere above)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 25, 2012, 08:16:37 pm
...and between the 2202 is the 2 nsec timebase.

And the 100MHz BW limit setting - which you would think would be set "ON" all the time on the 2072/2102.

don't give rigol any ideas ;)

I do know FFT function on 2072 works way way beyond 70 Mhz (posted a picture somewhere above)

The FFT is just calculated from the samples, and goes uo to 3.5 Ghz. Depends on the selected timebase.

And Rigol knows what  it is shipping, if you are selling test equipment, you can count on it that they will
check the specs..search for the limits.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 08:26:20 pm
I do know FFT function on 2072 works way way beyond 70 Mhz (posted a picture somewhere above)

The FFT is just calculated from the samples, and goes uo to 3.5 Ghz. Depends on the selected timebase.

And Rigol knows what  it is shipping, if you are selling test equipment, you can count on it that they will
check the specs..search for the limits.

I do think that the FFT is perhaps the one area that's a little feeble on the DS2000 series. It doesn't matter to me all that much - since it's relatively feeble on most low cost DSOs - and there are so many other great features (50k wfrm/s capture, segmented memory with histogram analysis, 500uV scale, hi-res mode, measurement history graphs, 2GSa/s sampling, etc) to offset that :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 25, 2012, 08:45:52 pm
These hacks or rumours of such on Rigol must have a fantastic marketing effect. Surely they sell more scopes this way, and get a lot of PR. I bought a DS2022, because so many people in this forum said the brand was good. I would guess it would have been less well known without the earlier 50 to 100 mhz hacks on the older scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 25, 2012, 09:07:07 pm
These hacks or rumours of such on Rigol must have a fantastic marketing effect. Surely they sell more scopes this way, and get a lot of PR. I bought a DS2022, because so many people in this forum said the brand was good. I would guess it would have been less well known without the earlier 50 to 100 mhz hacks on the older scope.
It's not just because people say so - look at Dave's video (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/) tearing down one of the DS2000s. Beautifully made inside - and it's the same with their latest series of AWGs and SAs.

And you're right -  it's quite possible that Rigol wouldn't have had the money to put into the R&D for these new series without the sales generated by the public posting of the DS1052E hack  :)

Edit: The place they lag behind the serious companies is in software and after-sales support. But I guess there has to be some trade-off for the low prices.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 25, 2012, 09:22:37 pm
It's not just because people say so - look at Dave's video (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog/eevblog-360-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-teardown/) tearing down one of the DS2000s. Beautifully made inside - and it's the same with their latest series of AWGs and SAs.

Yes, likely this video is the main reason why I bought my DS2202. I have been satisfied far now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 26, 2012, 01:03:17 pm
I do know FFT function on 2072 works way way beyond 70 Mhz (posted a picture somewhere above)

The FFT is just calculated from the samples, and goes uo to 3.5 Ghz. Depends on the selected timebase.

And Rigol knows what  it is shipping, if you are selling test equipment, you can count on it that they will
check the specs..search for the limits.

I do think that the FFT is perhaps the one area that's a little feeble on the DS2000 series. It doesn't matter to me all that much - since it's relatively feeble on most low cost DSOs - and there are so many other great features (50k wfrm/s capture, segmented memory with histogram analysis, 500uV scale, hi-res mode, measurement history graphs, 2GSa/s sampling, etc) to offset that :)


FFT on all these devices with 8 bit samplers are useless anyway...
With 8 bit samplers you have only 48 dB range which is not serious.
You need at least 14 or more for 84 dB or more to see any detail.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 26, 2012, 02:04:18 pm
I have a question about 8 vs 12 bit. I bought ds2022 thinking it was 12 bit, because many sites say this. Now, I am confused. Is it only 8 bit, but has some sort of averaging that supposedly makes it more accurate by considering many 8 bit samples?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 02:13:36 pm
I have a question about 8 vs 12 bit. I bought ds2022 thinking it was 12 bit, because many sites say this. Now, I am confused. Is it only 8 bit, but has some sort of averaging that supposedly makes it more accurate by considering many 8 bit samples?
Yes, it's 8-bit - and HiRes mode is averaging - but a different kind than the standard type used on all DSOs as an Acquire type. There's a good explanation of it in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/rigol-ds2072-review/msg138785/#msg138785) (and throughout that thread).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 07:42:44 pm
I've been working on a new version of my Rigol software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/) for the last couple of days, and I seem to have found the first bug in the DS2000 that is, IMO, rather a serious one:

I don't seem to be able to read the contents of the DSO memory reliably when the scope is in the STOP state - in other words, I can't get the full sample depth out of the scope (getting just the displayed data is not a problem) - which is a big deal if anyone is planning to do any post-processing with 3rd party software, including MATLAB or LabVIEW (one of the big selling points of the Rigol scope over it's competitors).

Here is the procedure to use copied from the Rigol DS2000 programming guide:

Procedures of the internal memory waveform data reading:
S1. :STOP
The internal memory waveform data can only be read in STOP state
S2. :WAV:SOURce CHAN1
Set the channel source to be read
S3. :WAV:MODE RAW
Set the waveform mode to RAW
S4. :WAV:RESet
Reset the waveform reading
S5. :WAV:BEGin
Start the waveform reading
S6. :WAV:STATus?
1) IDLE
:WAV:DATA?
:WAV: END
2) READ
:WAV:DATA?
Repeat S6

This order of commands does NOT work correctly with the DS2000 - it doesn't return or read the correct number of samples when run as a loop if the memory depth is set to anything higher than 14k.  In fact, you can test that it doesn't work correctly by just using Rigol's own software Ultra Sigma:
Just set the memory depth to >= 140k; STOP the scope; start Ultra Sigma; type in the listed SCPI commands one by one; and you will see it fail.

Perhaps the correct method has changed since the programming guide was published by Rigol - I've passed this info along to my dealer to pass to Rigol. We'll see what they have to say about it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 08:06:32 pm
While thinking about this apparent bug, it dawned on me that perhaps this is why Rigol has not released either an IVI driver - or any application software - for the DS2000 series yet. I'd love to know if this is something the DS4000 series has a problem with - or if it's confined to the 2000s. Any owners of a 4000 want to test it (or already know)?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 26, 2012, 09:15:18 pm
I have a question about 8 vs 12 bit. I bought ds2022 thinking it was 12 bit, because many sites say this. Now, I am confused. Is it only 8 bit, but has some sort of averaging that supposedly makes it more accurate by considering many 8 bit samples?

I think there are some DSP tricks (i.e. I don't understand the math ;) ) during down sampling that can increase the effective bit depth of the ADC.  the sampling rate has to be set to lower than 2 GSa/s in order to get the extra bits of resolution.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 10:26:43 pm
I've just posted the latest version of RUU (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575), the software I'm working on for UltraVision DSOs which allows fast grabbing, viewing, and saving of captured frames, waveform memory, or the DSO display - as either WFM, CSV, BMP, PNG, JPG, TIF, GIF, or animated GIF files.

As of this version, you can:

1) Fully manipulate Recording and Playing back of frames on the DSO.
2) Save frames as numbered image files, numbered CSV files, or animated GIF.
3) Save CH1/CH2 waveform data as CSV file (suspected firmware bug currently limits memory size to display memory = 1400 points).
4) Save DSO display as any of the supported bitmap image formats.

There are still two features not fully implemented, so they're currently disabled when running:

1) The saving of waveform data/frames as WFM files. As mentioned above, there seems to be a bug in the firmware preventing the reading of the entire sample memory. I'm waiting to hear what Rigol has to say about it - in the meantime, I will implement writing WFM files from just display memory (1400 points) in the next day or two.

2) The real-time PC display of the DSO display - an 'SVGA' mode. Once 'SVGA' is operational, the software can be run on an LCD monitor at 800x600 and maximized - for a psuedo-VGA output.

A nice engine for writing the 2D oscilloscope display data needs to be written. Does anyone either have some code already written (preferably using DirectX 2D or OpenGL under .NET) or want to contribute? I can do it but I'd rather not reinvent a wheel.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 26, 2012, 10:44:07 pm
BTW, Rigol has radically changed their WFM format on the DS2000 series (and I assume the whole UltraVision line) which means older WFM viewers such as this nice one (http://meteleskublesku.cz/wfm_view/) (and routines written in MATLAB or LabVIEW) won't work with the new files. And as of now, there is ZERO documentation around for the new format.  So I've decided to write my software to use the older format - as opposed to the new one which the scope will output.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 27, 2012, 03:56:41 pm
I have a question about 8 vs 12 bit. I bought ds2022 thinking it was 12 bit, because many sites say this. Now, I am confused. Is it only 8 bit, but has some sort of averaging that supposedly makes it more accurate by considering many 8 bit samples?

I think there are some DSP tricks (i.e. I don't understand the math ;) ) during down sampling that can increase the effective bit depth of the ADC.  the sampling rate has to be set to lower than 2 GSa/s in order to get the extra bits of resolution.

Yes , its all about statistics, here is a example how you can get more digits,
if a measure 6 times with 1 digit, 5 , 5, 6, 5, 6, 5, then the average is 5.33
so sudenly i have three digits...!, with a kind of uncertainy.

There are a lot of statistics ways you can use to get more resolution, you just need
the right number of samples, and the uncertainy you will accept.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 04:05:38 pm
note, The probes which come with the scoop are useless above 30 Mhz.

BTW, Wim, did you check the bandwidth of the probes (which Rigol rates at 350MHz) at 10x? I'm curious if they're rated 1x/35MHz - 10x/350MHz (or something like that) and I don't have any information about them anymore (if info even came with them - I don't remember) - and I don't have adequate gear here to do any serious testing .
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 04:26:27 pm
Someone (a ZeroPoster) sent me a PM about my Special XMAS Post (Now Redacted) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg174687/#msg174687) - asking for a method to invoke the Special Xmas bug. Please understand - under normal circumstances it's completely accepted and encouraged to ask for help from other members here without ever having contributed yourself. Unfortunately, this is not a normal circumstance.

Rigol is currently working on (and now at least 1 and 1/2 months behind schedule on) the latest firmware for the DS2000 series. One would assume that they would like to plug any exploits which give 'free stuff' to people before they release the next version. As you might understand, now is NOT a good time to be a Guest/ZeroPoster/Newbie member asking regular members for this kind of info. As I mentioned in the XMAS post, it's not rocket science, but if you can't figure it out yourself then get on the thread and start contributing. Either you'll start to be known here and someone will share - or Rigol will finally release the next damn version and render it moot.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2012, 04:35:30 pm
I'm curious if they're rated 1x/35MHz - 10x/350MHz (or something like that)

Bandwidths are 1X/8MHz and 10X/350MHz. Rise times are 1X/40ns and 10X/900ps.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 04:39:05 pm
Bandwidths are 1X/8MHz and 10X/350MHz. Rise times are 1X/40ns and 10X/900ps.

@EV: are these the written specifications - or tested by you?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2012, 05:54:29 pm
Bandwidths are 1X/8MHz and 10X/350MHz. Rise times are 1X/40ns and 10X/900ps.

@EV: are these the written specifications - or tested by you?

They are from specs. I made some tests with Rigol DG4162 generator:
Sweep is from 1Hz to 160 MHz (there is no bigger value)  with sweep time 1.4 sec.

Picture 1: 50 ohm output from generator connected with BNC cable and 50 ohm terminator to DS2202.

Picture 2: BNC cable with 50 ohm terminator connected to 10X probe

Picture 3: High resistance output from generator connected to 10X probe

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 06:35:42 pm
They are from specs. I made some tests with Rigol DG4162 generator:
Sweep is from 1Hz to 160 MHz (there is no bigger value)  with sweep time 1.4 sec.

Very nice... and interesting! Thanks for doing that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 06:44:05 pm
Strange... I was just playing around with Recording frames of an AM waveform while in Delayed Sweep mode (Zoom) - and I got this for the first ~120 frames before it changed to the correct data. The animated GIF is +/- 10 frames from the changeover.

EDIT: Of course, I'm unable to replicate the glitch  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 27, 2012, 06:52:02 pm
Got my ds2202 just now. Looks great. I can't get marmad's way of getting system info with f7 keys etc, but in system details it says:

Serial: ds2a143401531
Sw ver: 00.00.01.00.02
Hw ver: 1.1.0.0
Spu: 03.01.02
Wpu:00.06.00
Ccu: 12.29.00
Mcu: 00.05

Bought in Europe from tekequip.com. Just in case this is useful to anybody...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 27, 2012, 07:05:15 pm
Sw ver: 00.00.01.00.02
I suggest an upgrade to 01.00.05 - but upgrade during bootup - NOT FROM GUI (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg167752/#msg167752) or you will lose the trial options. Also, don't forget: NO SELF-CALIBRATION for the moment - or you will also lose the trial options.

EDIT: Because of a memory reading bug discovered in FW 01.00.05 (but not in 01.00.02), I would now suggest waiting awhile before upgrading.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2012, 09:11:17 pm
I made the same test as with DS2202  for comparison also with Tektronix TDS3032. Sweep time is 0.1 sec and sweep is from 1MHz to 160MHz. Here is picture from Tektronix and the earlier picture from DS2202:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 27, 2012, 09:28:26 pm
@ EV,

Clearly some SWR on the Rigol. not completly 50 ohm
as on the Tek
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 27, 2012, 10:51:05 pm
@ EV,

Clearly some SWR on the Rigol. not completly 50 ohm
as on the Tek

Yes, propably this termination with 50 ohm terminator using BNC T-adaptor is not very good. Tektronix has a real 50 ohm input impedance and needs no terminator.  It looks much better.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 28, 2012, 09:25:55 am
I bought some Tektronix 011-0049-01 feed Thru 50 Ohm Terminators from eBay. When I get them, I test again this sweep with DS2202.

Edit: Rigol seem to have also these feed thru 50 ohm terminators.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 12:36:51 pm
I bought some Tektronix 011-0049-01 feed Thru 50 Ohm Terminators from eBay. When I get them, I test again this sweep with DS2202.

Edit: Rigol seem to have also these feed thru 50 ohm terminators.

But i can not find any specifications of these from Rigol
You need at least calibrated or certified ones.

I have a several of these things, with and without certification.
and it is not easy to avoid any mismatches.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 01:15:14 pm
Hallo,

Made two pictures, of FFT screen dump, with 300 Mhz on a Rigol 2072 ( 70 Mhz)

The first picture, with High resolution on, and the second on normal...
se the difference, two peaks suddenly disappears...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 01:48:00 pm
Another two FFT pictures, with -70dBm signal at 100 Mhz and
the other with -70 dBm at 200 Mhz. scale is 5 dB.

So the noise floor here is about -95 Bm. The signal
is 70 uV and the scale is 500 uV /div

With 8 bit resolution, one single level is 16 uV on this scale.
so the 70 uV input only 4 or 5 levels of the 256 are used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 28, 2012, 01:52:02 pm
Hallo,

Made two pictures, of FFT screen dump, with 300 Mhz on a Rigol 2072 ( 70 Mhz)

The first picture, with High resolution on, and the second on normal...
se the difference, two peaks suddenly disappears...

2 peaks more in normal mode? Also RMS is much bigger there. I am not familiar with FFT.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 01:56:09 pm
Hallo,

Made two pictures, of FFT screen dump, with 300 Mhz on a Rigol 2072 ( 70 Mhz)

The first picture, with High resolution on, and the second on normal...
se the difference, two peaks suddenly disappears...

2 peaks more in normal mode? Also RMS is much bigger there. I am not familiar with FFT.

In high resolution , one should expect more detail then in normal....
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 28, 2012, 02:00:30 pm
In high resolution , one should expect more detail then in normal....

Yes I thought so also. Does that bigger RMS in normal mode mean something?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 02:08:53 pm
In high resolution , one should expect more detail then in normal....

Yes I thought so also. Does that bigger RMS in normal mode mean something?

The RMS is not reliable, to the book you may not use it in this ranges,
there are to less bits left , you have 8 bits for 8 divisions, 256 levels.
Thats 32 levels per division resolution for the RMS, it has to deal with statistics
to get more out of it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 28, 2012, 02:33:03 pm
Here a FFT picture of the FM radio band at 88-108 Mhz,
just connected a VHF antenna on the input of the Rigol 2072.

You can clearly see the signals from 88 -108 Mhz in the air.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on December 28, 2012, 02:50:58 pm

You can clearly see the signals from 88 -108 Mhz in the air.

now we need to figure out how to hear them...  :) If there is a way to transfer samples to the PC in real time they can be demodulated and played back in something like GnuRadio. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 28, 2012, 10:58:09 pm
I pressed on and immediately pressed and released HELP (had to try several times).

I now have SW version 00.00.01 (and that's it... no .05) Does it mean it worked?

Is the self-calibration bug still in the v5 firmware? I assume yes, since you're warning me.

Edit: I managed to get the secret handshake now. Stupidly didn't realize I should go to system info afterwards. Thought it'd be a popup, but then I reread the forum, which I should have done anyway. So, it's not confirmed upgraded to 00.00.01.00.05.

Thanks.

Sw ver: 00.00.01.00.02
I suggest an upgrade to 01.00.05 - but upgrade during bootup - NOT FROM GUI (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg167752/#msg167752) or you will lose the trial options. Also, don't forget: NO SELF-CALIBRATION for the moment - or you will also lose the trial options.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 28, 2012, 11:41:47 pm
Edit: I managed to get the secret handshake now. Stupidly didn't realize I should go to system info afterwards. Thought it'd be a popup, but then I reread the forum, which I should have done anyway. So, it's not confirmed upgraded to 00.00.01.00.05.

Great - enjoy!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 01:22:10 am
I've had a couple of people PM me asking for a copy of the 01.00.05 firmware - but my DS2072 came with it installed, so I don't have one. Would someone who does be willing to post it - either here or in the software thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/)?  If someone has it, but is not comfortable publicly posting it - shoot me an email with it, and I'll be happy to do it. Just because Rigol is tight-fisted with the firmware, doesn't mean we have to be  ;) And in fact, the more it spreads around, the better for everyone.  Perhaps it even pushes Rigol to speed up newer versions  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 06:29:33 am
Is it Valid to test at 160MHz Freg. when the DS2000 Scope is set at 100mS/div and ONLY 20Msa/s ??
Are you just showing aliasing?

Why it is not valid? What is aliasing (it is not in my dictionary)? I am testing the original probe and the way it is connected to scope. Tektronix scope is used for comparison because it has real 50 ohm input, but Rigol does not (it needs 50 ohm terminator).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 29, 2012, 07:14:40 am
Why it is not valid? What is aliasing (it is not in my dictionary)?

Here is a good video on aliasing
Understanding the concepts of aliasing and how to detect and fix it using a Tektronix oscilloscope (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g3svU5VJ8Gk#ws)

I think it is better to sweep 120-160 Mhz with DSO set for 2.0GSa/s  ie  500us/div   sweep time .5ms
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 08:19:23 am
I think this aliasing does not influence to the shape of the curve and it can be corrected by long persistence time. Here are pictures with minimum and infinite persistence time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 29, 2012, 09:49:14 am
RIGOL 2000 Service Menu

I did not found any info on this yes on the forum, maybe somewhere else..?

But if you do this 4 button sequence, F7-F6-F7-Utility, under the trigger menu,
you get also the service menu, where you can do screen test, keyboard test,
and gaintest, and some other things i dont dare to touch.

Is there anybody , who already did some experience with this menu..??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on December 29, 2012, 10:00:20 am
Why it is not valid? What is aliasing (it is not in my dictionary)?


With Owon (and many many other oscilloscopes including also some Rigol lowest end models)I have made lot lot of lab tests.)

(here borrowed for example picture from Owon thread page 57 where is also more).

For this measurement can use slow speeds for BW tests. It is quite normal method. This may avoid also some possible other fast sweep problems)

There is very slow samplerate and still no need think aliasing (in this case) but wait a moment...

(aliasing is not known?? and using digital oscilloscope... perhaps this is good to upgrade asap for avoid mistakes in measurements... but no problem, it is easy to learn. it is one very very basic fundamental what need know and know what all it is and what kind of affect it have... in different waveforms in normal oscilloscope trace and FFT. )

You see owon image I have used very slow speed (10s/div) and tested with sweep from 1MHz to 250MHz and "samplerate" is 50 samples per second (becouse in this case only 10k sampling buffer selected)  This 50 samples/s  mean that ALL analog frequency components what ADC input can see and what are over 25Hz produce exactly sure aliasing (if you see it or not but it is there). This is basic fundamental what can not break!

But example in Owon behind this 50sample/second ADC circuit works still (in this case 1GSa/s) full speed.  For aliasing this do not matter and for alising it is 50 sample per second.

(ADC works full speed and systenm use only every 20000000's sample.)

How to do?

Turn sampling (acquire) mode to "peak" (it is used in this Owon test)

Now system select (inside this 1/50s window highest samples  (different scopes use different methods perhaps (of course this have also bad effect becouse now this sample time is where ever inside this "window" but in this case it do not mean anything) and  what happend... now you do not need put one penny for thinkin aliasing (in this case).

Of course if do some accurate tests also generator starting level need adjust with this frequency what want keep as reference level. Also it is good to use signal generator what have accurate flatness over used frequency band.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 10:54:05 am
Turn sampling (acquire) mode to "peak" (it is used in this Owon test)

Here is a new picture "peak detect" turned on. There is also under "acquire" "anti-aliasing" button which is now on. Persistence time is at minimum. There is no change on the curve compared to the earlier curves.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 11:06:36 am
But if you do this 4 button sequence, F7-F6-F7-Utility, under the trigger menu,
you get also the service menu, where you can do screen test, keyboard test,
and gaintest, and some other things i dont dare to touch.

Is there anybody , who already did some experience with this menu..??

I've played around with the keyboard test - and looked at the other options. But I haven't screwed too much with it because I didn't want to risk messing up my factory calibration.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on December 29, 2012, 11:10:50 am

Here is a new picture "peak detect" turned on.

Now there on the forum no one can come and suspect if you show some aliasing... ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 11:49:33 am
Well, I've found either another bug with the scope - or it's related to the previous bug of not being able to read deep sample lengths from scope.

Could someone else please try this and see what results you get?

EDIT: As mentioned in a later post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175767/#msg175767), I've discovered that the bug/problem is with loading waveforms into DSO memory.

Set sample length to 14MPts (you can also try 56MPts - but it will take longer to save the file). Sample any waveform (EDIT: I used noise - but I don't think it matters - see also post below) - STOP, enter Zoom mode, go to the end of the waveform and save the image:

BEFORE SAVING
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35714)

Then save the file to WFM format on a USB stick. Then make sure you clear the memory (capture a different type of waveform or AUTO no input), then load the saved WFM file back into memory. Again Zoom in and go to the end of the waveform and save the image:

AFTER LOADING
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35716;image)

EDIT: On my DSO, the waveform is not being recalled correctly from the file.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andrewfernie on December 29, 2012, 11:57:07 am
I've had a couple of people PM me asking for a copy of the 01.00.05 firmware - but my DS2072 came with it installed, so I don't have one. Would someone who does be willing to post it - either here or in the software thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/)? 
Someone has posted it in the software thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 12:10:55 pm
As it turns out, it doesn't matter what kind of waveform you save. Here is another example - showing the end of a 14MPt capture, save, and load of a sine wave:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35720;image)

EDIT: The place where the file/memory gets corrupted:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35722;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 12:50:16 pm
I don't know about this error, but sometimes when I have stored pictures (as bmp and maybe others), in stored picture has not been any waveform only pure graticule and frames. When stored second time also waveform is there.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 12:55:10 pm
I don't know about this error, but sometimes when I have stored pictures (as bmp and maybe others), in stored picture has not been any waveform only pure graticule and frames. When stored second time also waveform is there.

This is something different - as noted below. But perhaps you can test this on your DSO?

Further research on this bug:

I tried again with a sine wave - and this time it worked correctly. So I compared the 'good' and 'bad' sine wave WFM files, and they are identical. This means two things:

This bug/problem is intermittent - which is the worst kind of bug/problem.
This bug/problem is in the loading of the DSO memory - not the saving.

So far, with testing, it failed to correctly load a stored 14MPt waveform into memory [4 of 5 times]. (Edited - and growing).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 01:03:16 pm
Here is the sine wave file I showed in the previous post reloaded again into the DSO memory. It again has corruption at the end - but different than the first time of loading it:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35724;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 02:28:23 pm
This is something different - as noted below. But perhaps you can test this on your DSO?

Further research on this bug:

I tried again with a sine wave - and this time it worked correctly. So I compared the 'good' and 'bad' sine wave WFM files, and they are identical. This means two things:

This bug/problem is intermittent - which is the worst kind of bug/problem.
This bug/problem is in the loading of the DSO memory - not the saving.

So far, with testing, it failed to correctly load a stored 14MPt waveform into memory [4 of 5 times]. (Edited - and growing).

I could not repeat this bug, I did it only once. Look at the picture. Have you tried an other USB-stick?

Edit: I try again with 20 MHz sine wave.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 29, 2012, 03:04:23 pm
Now I got it. It was also at the end of 1.4Mpts file, but I did not take picture from it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 04:22:07 pm
Help question,

when i do a record, with the record button, i can play around
with the info, but if i want to save it to a file as wfm, it blanks
out. It only allow me to make a new directory..?

i press storage, select waveforms, and then press save,
in the next menu, i get only new folder and delete.?

I can only save waveforms in realtime mode, when i then
press storage, and do the same then i can save it to the usb stick

what do i wrong.?
It might help if you read the previous messages in the thread you're posting in  ;)  Seriously though, I pointed this out before in this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160404/#msg160404) - and IMO it's the biggest failure (I don't mean bugs) of the current firmware: it would be a much more powerful feature if you could save and reload frames for comparison later - since you can do everything to saved frames (measurement, bus decode, zoom, math, etc) that you can do to single waveforms. Rigol have been notified that there are owners who would like this capability.

That was the main reason I started writing my software = so that you could save all of the data from the frames (but, of course, I can't force the Rigol to reload it). As of now, my software can save frames as images, animated GIFs, CSVs (and WFM is coming soon) - but because of another serious bug I posted about a couple of days ago (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg174895/#msg174895) (which no one else has yet confirmed), you can only read display memory from the scope - not the entire sample length - so the CSV and WFM files are currently limited to 1.4kPts each.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 04:27:10 pm
Now I got it. It was also at the end of 1.4Mpts file, but I did not take picture from it.
Thanks for confirming that EV! I was starting to worry I might be having memory problems with my DSO. I will pass it along to drieg.

Now I'm just wondering if it's related to this other bug bug I posted about (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg174895/#msg174895), or something different entirely.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 29, 2012, 04:36:57 pm
@ Marmad, thanks for your info.., sorry, but i read everything on these posts...
but what happens, you read all kinds of things, but i had not tried all these items
so the most items you read here does not always mean anything to the reader...unitl..
you are a a point were you try things you did not had any clue before...

So i did not study all the software yet, i am not so far yet..
I am using here a GPIB bus fot the HP stuff with a Prologix convertor to the PC.
So i have to find a way to get the Rigol under control.

I did a search on the Firmware 1.005.., find that is has a header for a 2202
and was written for two fans inside, with temperature control ..
And there is a battery low indication, was there ever a battery in these Rigols..?
Or is this firmware written for more brands then only Rigol..?
The firmware is not encrypted. You can upgrade with former version, or the same.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 05:04:39 pm
@ Marmad, thanks for your info.., sorry, but i read everything on these posts...
but what happens, you read all kinds of things, but i had not tried all these items
so the most items you read here does not always mean anything to the reader...unitl..
you are a a point were you try things you did not had any clue before...

No problem Wim - I was kidding. These threads get so long it's almost impossible to read the whole thing - and I know what you mean about the info not having significance unless you've used the feature, etc.

Quote
So i did not study all the software yet, i am not so far yet. I am using here a GPIB bus fot the HP stuff with a Prologix convertor to the PC. So i have to find a way to get the Rigol under control.

It's easier to connect now - with USB or LAN. I recommend downloading Rigol's Ultra Sigma software and experimenting with sending SCPI commands to the DSO . It's very easy (ASCII based messages) and you can test many things (such as the memory read bug I described).

Quote
I did a search on the Firmware 1.005.., find that is has a header for a 2202
and was written for two fans inside, with temperature control ..
The firmware is not encrypted. You can upgrade with former version, or the same.

Interesting. I hope it stays this way - and Rigol concentrates their efforts on getting rid of the bugs - instead of on hack-prevention.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 05:53:02 pm
so you have not to enter option keys by hand..., thats gives a try for a brute force..
There are 28 items in the key, and 32 letters/numbers that gives... too many

Yes, way too many - I also thought of that the first day with the scope ;D  But the only way to reverse engineer a key-generator is to 'watch' what math the firmware performs on the license code + serial number.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 05:55:26 pm
@Teneyes - I posted a small piece of test software for you in the other thread - to check if your 01.00.02 software uses the "Open" command (as mine does) - or the "Keep" command (as noted in the outdated programming guide). Please let me know which one works for you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on December 29, 2012, 07:29:47 pm
I put an Marconi signal generator(2019a) on my ds 2072, ( 70 mhz  to the book ) and these were the results,

112 mhz -3 db at 100 milliVolts, the rms on the scoop 70 mV
175 mhz -6 db
232 mhz -9 db
292 mhz -12 db
349 mhz -15 db still triggering and rms still working.
403 mhz -18db
437 mhz -20 db still good trigger and stable
497 mhz game over

I ran this same test using my HP 8660D signal generator into my new DS2072.   My results were within 1dB for the most part.  I am very impressed with the scope so far.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 29, 2012, 10:01:33 pm
I posted some utility software at the other thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175932/#msg175932) to test if your Rigol DS2000 series scope can have it's sample memory read correctly by the PC. Mine is failing this test, as reported earlier here as a serious bug/problem.

Could someone please give it a try and let me know what happens?

Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 29, 2012, 10:07:17 pm
RIGOL 2000 Service Menu

I did not found any info on this yes on the forum, maybe somewhere else..?

But if you do this 4 button sequence, F7-F6-F7-Utility, under the trigger menu,
you get also the service menu, where you can do screen test, keyboard test,
and gaintest, and some other things i dont dare to touch.

Is there anybody , who already did some experience with this menu..??

Thanks for this --- it's something I didn't notice previously.  I just had a look on my DS2072 and the new menu is called "PROJECT" --- just thought I'd mention it because I was looking for "SERVICE" option :) 

I did not play with anything on this menu yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 30, 2012, 12:21:15 am
Well, I've found either another bug with the scope - or it's related to the previous bug of not being able to read deep sample lengths from scope.

Could someone else please try this and see what results you get?
< snip >
Then save the file to WFM format on a USB stick. Then make sure you clear the memory (capture a different type of waveform or AUTO no input), then load the saved WFM file back into memory. Again Zoom in and go to the end of the waveform and save the image:

I tried to confirm this also, but I am unable to save Waveforms or CSV from the scope.  Specifically what happens is that when I set "Storage" to "Waveforms" or "CSV" and then select "Save" button, the "New File" option is grayed out (unselectable).  If I go back and set "Storage" to any other option (Traces, Setups, or Picture), I am able to select "New File" and saving proceeds.

Is there something I'm missing about not being able to save Waveforms or CSV?

I excited from dual time-base mode and that didn't help.  I then pressed "Stop Record" button to exit Record mode (it is already STOPped...but square STOP button is RED color), and then the "New File" menu button becomes active when "Waveforms" is selected for the "Storage" option...however after exiting Record mode, the waveform is lost :(

So, I'm not sure the correct procedure to save the current waveform in memory to the USB drive.

Any pointers what I am doing wrong?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 30, 2012, 12:28:23 am
Well, I've found either another bug with the scope - or it's related to the previous bug of not being able to read deep sample lengths from scope.

Could someone else please try this and see what results you get?
< snip >
Then save the file to WFM format on a USB stick. Then make sure you clear the memory (capture a different type of waveform or AUTO no input), then load the saved WFM file back into memory. Again Zoom in and go to the end of the waveform and save the image:

I tried to confirm this also, but I am unable to save Waveforms or CSV from the scope.  Specifically what happens is that when I set "Storage" to "Waveforms" or "CSV" and then select "Save" button, the "New File" option is grayed out (unselectable).  If I go back and set "Storage" to any other option (Traces, Setups, or Picture), I am able to select "New File" and saving proceeds.

Is there something I'm missing about not being able to save Waveforms or CSV?

I excited from dual time-base mode and that didn't help.  I then pressed "Stop Record" button to exit Record mode (it is already STOPped...but square STOP button is RED color), and then the "New File" menu button becomes active when "Waveforms" is selected for the "Storage" option...however after exiting Record mode, the waveform is lost :(

So, I'm not sure the correct procedure to save the current waveform in memory to the USB drive.

Any pointers what I am doing wrong?

Now I realize this is the same issue as posted by Wim13:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175819/#msg175819 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175819/#msg175819)

This thread has grown a lot in the last couple of days --- difficult keeping up!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2012, 12:41:41 am
This thread has grown a lot in the last couple of days --- difficult keeping up!

True  :)  But the bug I found when loading waveforms into memory has nothing to do with the Record mode - so that limitation doesn't matter.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 30, 2012, 05:25:45 am
Well, I've found either another bug with the scope - or it's related to the previous bug of not being able to read deep sample lengths from scope.

Could someone else please try this and see what results you get?

This bug has already been confirmed by EV, but here I also post my result of this test.  In my case, each time I load the waveform from USB stick, the error appears to be the same.

See my "before" (waveform as originally recorded, before saving to USB drive) and "after" (after loading from USB drive) images attached.

Interesting that the error in recalled waveform always appears at the very end.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 30, 2012, 06:40:32 am
That was the main reason I started writing my software = so that you could save all of the data from the frames (but, of course, I can't force the Rigol to reload it). As of now, my software can save frames as images, animated GIFs, CSVs (and WFM is coming soon) - but because of another serious bug I posted about a couple of days ago (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg174895/#msg174895) (which no one else has yet confirmed), you can only read display memory from the scope - not the entire sample length - so the CSV and WFM files are currently limited to 1.4kPts each.

Okay, I gave it a shot and I can confirm this doesn't work correctly.  I set the memory depth to 5.60k points (:ACQuire:MDEPth? returns 5600) and then acquire some data and then run each of the SCPI commands from Ultra Sigma.

When I send the :WAV:STATus? it returns IDLE, 1400 to say the read operation is idle and there are 1.4k points to read.  When running the next command (:WAV:DATA?) it returns #9000000000 which seems bogus (last 4 zeros indicate no data).  On a fifth execution of this command, it returned #9000001400xxxx.... which indicates it is sending 1400 points, and the xxxx's are the data.  Then I run :WAV:STATus? again and it indicates IDLE, 1400 so I try and read another 1.4k points with :WAV:DATA? but system returns #9000000000 again...and after a few attempts it succeeds and sends #90000014007xxxxx again.  So, even on second, third or forth attempts to read data, when it eventually does send data, it seems to be sending the exact same first segment of data as was returned from the beginning, rather than the next 1400 points of data. 

So, does not seem to be working correctly, even for small memory depth (5.6k points) when trying to read 1400 points at a time.


EXTRA INFO: I should add that even when doing the step :WAV:MODE RAW to set the waveform to RAW mode, :WAVeform:POINts? still returns 1400, which is the normal maximum number of points to read.  That is, the number of points to read doesn't automatically update to the maximum possible allowed in RAW mode.  Thus, in a second test, I subsequently send :WAVeform:POINts 5600 to set the number of read points to 5600, and WAV:STATus? now returns IDLE, 5600.  Then, after a bunch of failed :WAV:DATA? it eventually succeed and returns all 5600 data points.  So, this seemed to work fine (despite initial fails to read data).

I then did another test, with memory depth 280k points. :WAV:STATus? returns IDLE, 280000.  And, on second attempt at read, :WAV:DATA? succeeds and this time returns 126948 data points, and not the full 280k points asked for.


I then tried the MATLAB programming example in the DS2000 series programming guide, and that fails also.  The request for data ([data,len]= fread( ds2000, 2048 );) times out before the operation completes.  This happens even when the input buffer size is 1400 points.

This is possibly the worst bug so far --- no ability to read out the complete memory to PC for further analysis.  Really hoping this bug can be fixed!

Has this one been forwarded to our friend drieg?


Edit note: Since my original post, I read a bit more about setting the number of waveform points to read, and so I subsequently performed additional tests and included results above.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on December 30, 2012, 09:42:33 am
I noticed that the "Anti-Aliasing" does not work if I close the scope and turn on the power again even if "Anti-Aliasing" is on. If I put it off and on again, it works again.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2012, 02:34:59 pm
I've posted a revamped version of the Rigol Read Memory test in the software thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175932/#msg175932). It allows you to check if your scope has the bug which prevents correct reading of the sample memory.

There is definitely a bug in the IDLE -> READ response sequence - which is the final response for the final packet when reading memory. You can see how this works by setting your memory depth to 14MPts, then running my software and clicking "Rigol Full Sample Memory Read - MAX/RAW mode". The PC will read the entire memory - but fail on the final packet.  Unfortunately, for small memory depths (< 14MPts in non-ASCII mode), there is only one packet - so read attempts at 14kB and 140kB and 1.4MB fail using Rigol's technique. Using my "Wait Until Bytes Read >= Sample Memory Size" button will usually force my DSO into finally sending the final packet at smaller memory depths (<= 140k) - but it's a wonky workaround.

This bug appears to be confined to v.00.01.00.05 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg176253/#msg176253). Once I hear Rigol's response to the problem, I will consider downgrading to v.00.01.00.02
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 30, 2012, 07:59:17 pm
I noticed that the "Anti-Aliasing" does not work if I close the scope and turn on the power again even if "Anti-Aliasing" is on. If I put it off and on again, it works again.

Thanks, EV. Confirmed this bug on my scope too. I'll add it to the bug list on Page 1 - which I'm updating now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JOHNJB on December 30, 2012, 11:31:44 pm
Marmad or EV, have you guys tried the i2c serial decode features? How good is that software on this dso for that?

I have used only RS-232 decoder and it works well.
[/quote]

In ASCII mode, if its not a bug it looks like it:
ASCII-ANSI Standard, it comprise characters and controls,
it only decodes characters.
In the attached examples, my old Yokogawa decodes:
decode-1: (CR),(LF)
decode-2: (ENQ),F,F,9,1,(CR)
me and older technicians prefer this mode not "*"

John JB

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 01:33:54 am
Does anyone have (or has anyone seen) any copy of the RIGOL Programming Guide - DS2000 Series Digital Oscilloscope besides this one (dated July 2012) (http://sdpha2.ucsd.edu/Lab_Equip_Manuals/Rigol_DS2000_ProgrammingGuide_EN.pdf)?

It's a little odd that the only copy I can find online (I see no copy at any of the Rigol websites) is clearly written for FW 01.00.02 (evidenced by the outdated "Keep" command - instead of "Open" - for Record Open).

Given this latest discovery of the memory read problem with FW 01.00.05, it seems to me there are two possible conclusions:

1) Rigol is aware of this bad problem with FW 01.00.05 - and so is downplaying the programming aspect of the scope (Programming Guide offline, no IVI driver, etc) until they can rectify the problem.

Or the other, more hopeful, alternative:

2) Because the Programming Guide is outdated and hasn't been revised, the command sequence for reading memory in FW 01.00.05 has changed slightly - and the technique as laid out for FW 01.00.02 doesn't work anymore. Then all we need to do is hear from Rigol what the new method is.

Waiting....  ::)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on December 31, 2012, 01:56:57 am
Does anyone have (or has anyone seen) any copy of the RIGOL Programming Guide - DS2000 Series Digital Oscilloscope besides ...

It's a little odd that the only copy I can find online (I see no copy at any of the Rigol websites) is clearly written for FW 01.00.02 (evidenced by the outdated "Keep" command - instead of "Open" - for Record Open).

Then all we need to do is hear from Rigol what the new method is.

Waiting....  ::)

I could not find the DS2000 Series Programming Guide on the Rigol NA website, however it is currently available on the Rigol website (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547 (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547)).

When I went looking for documents, I found the Rigol website better than Rigol NA website (several documents on the latter site are older versions than what is available from the former website).

I think we need updated firmware, and then an updated Programming Guide (and IVI driver --- after all, our DS2000 has "LXI Class C" stamped on the back, so it should come with IVI driver by default!).  We don't know what will happen in the next firmware: SCPI commands might revert to 01.00.02 (i.e. "Keep" instead of "Open"), or they might stay as per 01.00.05 and incorporate bug fixes, or they might change to something new!  I'm hoping it's just a matter of bug fixes, but its looking like they have a whole lot of issues to resolve.  I hope they speed it up!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 02:02:01 am
I could not find the DS2000 Series Programming Guide on the Rigol NA website, however it is currently available on the Rigol website (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547 (http://www.rigol.com/prodserv/DS2000/document/?act=view&itemid=547)).

Well that's good to know at least. It just seems strange that a Google search only turns up that copy at the .edu site - and many sellers (the big one in the EU is Batronix) don't offer it among the documentation that have available for download.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 11:47:18 am
But not sure of this.., can anyone who has not filled in a new trail option key from Rigol,
confirm that he has also restored the trail options..?, before or after it expired.

I have a new key from Rigol - but I have not used it yet.

BTW, Wim, what FW version are you using? I'd like to find one more person with FW 01.00.02 to verify that the memory reading bug is not present in that version.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to discover if the WFM-loading corruption bug (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175767/#msg175767) is also present in FW 01.00.02.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 31, 2012, 12:51:29 pm
I have software version 1.005, seems that all 2072 have .5 and the 2202 have .2
if a read back the posts

Did a port scan on the Lan interface, only found port 80 for the webinterface
and port 111 with 618 and 619 for Sun rpc. The system seems to use Unix/Linux
They have blocked the telnet, also on 9000 ports
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on December 31, 2012, 12:53:52 pm
Looking inside the firmware-file, you can see the web responses in clear-text. Would be cool to change some of the text. I wonder if the file is signed to prevent going in and changing characters... it can't be that easy I guess  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 31, 2012, 01:38:05 pm
Looking inside the firmware-file, you can see the web responses in clear-text. Would be cool to change some of the text. I wonder if the file is signed to prevent going in and changing characters... it can't be that easy I guess  :)

On these files there is always a kind of checksum, because if something goes wrong during
transfer or somewere else, the whole sysem will crash. Most checksums are not complicated.
And you have to know where it is stored in the file.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 01:48:22 pm
I have software version 1.005, seems that all 2072 have .5 and the 2202 have .2
if a read back the posts

No, not at all. I believe Teneyes (who is currently on 01.00.02) has a 2072. And many people on the thread (tlu, Sparky, etc) bought 2072s not long ago which came with 01.00.02. In fact, I think that most models sold in NA have 01.00.02 still installed - and it seems many in the EU have 01.00.05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 02:48:24 pm
In ASCII mode, if its not a bug it looks like it:
ASCII-ANSI Standard, it comprise characters and controls,
it only decodes characters.
In the attached examples, my old Yokogawa decodes:
decode-1: (CR),(LF)
decode-2: (ENQ),F,F,9,1,(CR)
me and older technicians prefer this mode not "*"

Thanks for posting this, John. I'm not sure I would call this a 'bug' per se - but it certainly is lazy/sloppy coding at the least. I haven't had much time to really investigate the different decoding options yet (or the extended triggers either) except the small amount of testing I did with the I2C in the video review -  but I'm sure there are many 'bugs' to discover in these areas as well.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on December 31, 2012, 04:18:52 pm
External trigger and the sampling speed,

External trigger and channel 1 on, ( 2 off) got 1 Gsa/s
External trigger and channel 2 on, ( 1 off) got 2 Gsa/s

And cant get 2 Gsa/s on channel 1 with external trigger,
only on channel 2. Is this normal, or do i somthing wrong.?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 05:03:59 pm
And cant get 2 Gsa/s on channel 1 with external trigger,
only on channel 2. Is this normal, or do i somthing wrong.?

It appears to be a bug that's confined to the menu selection process. It's not a problem to do it with SCPI commands, as shown in the commented copied and pasted exchange below:

===========================================

-> :CHANnel1:DISPlay?                   // Check CHAN1 status
1                                                     // CHAN1 1 is on

-> :CHANnel2:DISPlay?                   // Check CHAN2 status
0                                                     // CHAN2 is off

-> :TRIGger:EDGe:SOURce EXT      // Set trigger source to EXT

-> :TRIGger:EDGe:SOURce?           // Check trigger source
EXT                                                // Trigger source is EXT

-> :ACQuire:SRATe?                      // Check sample rate
2.000000e+09                              // Sample rate is 2G Sa/s

===========================================
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 05:11:41 pm
Also, if you bootup with CH1 and EXT trigger selected - you get 2G Sa/s. So you just have to set it - then turn off and on your DSO. Easy as pie  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 05:48:46 pm
I'm planning to write a DS2000 WFM format <-> DS1000 WFM format converter in awhile (once I collect more info about the DS2000 format) and adding it to the utilities.

Here is a little experimentation in the early days. I've taken a 14MPt WFM DS2000 file of a sine wave and stripped it of it's header. Then I've added a DS1000 header onto it so that I can read it into dexter2048's nice Delphi-based WFM viewer and analyzer (built for the DS1052E). His program can do FFT spectrum analysis with up to 1M samples. Very cool.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35901;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on December 31, 2012, 07:21:33 pm
Also, if you bootup with CH1 and EXT trigger selected - you get 2G Sa/s.
DS2072 FW  1.00.02
   Yes is BUg and should NOT have to REpower to Get 2GSa/s for External
   I can see switch to 1Ga/s if trigger is Chan 2, as you watch chan 1, but after selector (multifuction knob) goes to EXT. then allow 2GSa/s again.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on December 31, 2012, 10:40:51 pm
BTW, Wim, what FW version are you using? I'd like to find one more person with FW 01.00.02 to verify that the memory reading bug is not present in that version.

EDIT: Also, I'd like to discover if the WFM-loading corruption bug (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg175767/#msg175767) is also present in FW 01.00.02.
I can confirm, FW 01.00.02 has also problems reloading saved WFM files.
I reported both issues reported to Rigol...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on December 31, 2012, 10:50:43 pm
There is another new memory-reading related bug (not to be confused with the original Memory Read bug = #9 in our ever-growing list (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659))  :(

This one affects both FW 01.00.02 and 01.00.05: when attempting to read 7MB sample depths out of the scope, the DSO transfers the wrong number of bytes (something 'random' between 6.9 - 7MB).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 02:11:24 am
One thing I wanted to reiterate here which I mentioned to Teneyes over in the software thread - and which, perhaps like I was, some other owners are unaware of because it's counter-intuitive to the way we think of recording (this didn't really dawn on me until I started programming RUU):

The recording of frames is controlled by triggering - not by time. Although you can specify a delay before the re-arming of the trigger - each frame is captured by a trigger. That means if you segment the memory for recording the maximum 65000 frames - and you use the maximum re-arm (delay) interval of 10 seconds - you can record a time-lapse picture of a triggered waveform that will be stretched over at least 7.5 days of time in length (with a trigger of at least once every 10 seconds). The slowest timebase setting for 65000 frames is 50ns - with 700ns being recorded with each frame. So that would be ~45 milliseconds of recorded time - spread evenly over 7.5 days. You can then run it through the analysis function - and get a histogram of deviation of the waveform over that length of time.

This is a really powerful feature - and as far as I can tell, there isn't anything remotely similar on the Agilent X Series - or anything else anywhere near this price class.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 01, 2013, 08:43:25 am
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

After using my new DS2072 for several days.  I noticed a rattling sound when I moved it.  Having heard of this clip retainer issue, I decided to investigate, but didn't want to void the warranty.  Luckily the heatsinks and clips can all be seen from the side ventilation holes.   I found on clip and one retainer were missing.  After lots of shaking, I was able to get both of the missing parts position by the ventilation holes and pulled them out with a tweezers.

It appears the retaining loop was soldered but not good enough for the heavy spring tension on it.

The first pic below shows the parts.
2nd pic shows one of the retainer loops still in place, but the spring missing.
3rd pic shows the position of the missing retainer. (screenshot from Dave's review, not my scope)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: SeanB on January 01, 2013, 09:05:01 am
Solder flow under strain....... To see it for yourself take a length of solder, around 4 foot in length, and hang it over a coat hanger or on a hook and leave it in a cupboard for a week undisturbed. It will break in that time from it's own mass and the constant pull on it. Those loops ideally should be made longer on the board solder side and bent over and clinched before soldering. That will hold them down mechanically and the solder will just provide additional support. If replacing them make the new ones from a loop of copper wire and bend it over after insertion and before soldering.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2013, 11:08:45 am
I have this bug on Loading of WFM files EXCEPT on loading a 54MPts See att

This is problematic, because it does not appear always on every saving and loading.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 11:49:24 am
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

Thanks for reporting this Martin. Unfortunately there's no easy way to check them without taking off that pesky sticker - aside from shaking the device - which might cause the problem.

I've never been a big fan of this method of spring retention - it's always seemed a little dubious to me. I've had them come off on three different motherboards over the years.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 12:00:42 pm
Hi!

Since recently I also own a DS2000 series scope (the 200MHz version) and I have some questions and comments too.

Overall it's a quite nice device, the UI is mostly intuitive and other than for the Owon scopes, you can look at the screen without getting eye cancer from the bad color choices. For what I tested it matches the promised specifications. The startup time is reasonably fast. The fan is sort of loud but its pitch is not annoying; I can easily live with that. The USB/LAN programming API is very powerful anyways (I just played with it a little bit). The overall build quality feels solid. The pushable knobs are a bit annoying at first since you often accidentially rotate them a bit while pushing, but I'm very sure that that will not happen any more once you've used them for a few weeks, it's just about practice. I'm already getting better at it. ;)
I think there is no point in writing down all the things which are cool, most of that has been said already.

Instead here's some more questions and toughts.

Here's the frequency response of the DS2202 scope (sorry, it's in relative units, the actual values on the y axis mean nothing; it's probably kind of inaccurate too). The four or five little "spikes" are measurement errors. You can see that the -3dB point is a bit above 200MHz. The trigger works okay for up to ~650MHz to 700MHz, above that it's getting very difficult to see anything except blur on the screen in non-singleshot mode. Maybe the big waves in the diagram are due to impedance mismatch, I'm not sure. I'll try again with different matching later.
This is not a professional measurement, don't rely on it or anything, it's just a nice image for illustration. ;)
(http://i.imgur.com/VQ8kal.png) (http://imgur.com/VQ8ka)
This was measured by pluging a frequency generator into the scope and making it sweep, reading Vpp via TMC after every sweep step.
Even at 1GHz there's still something visible, but only sharp in Single mode and it's kind of wobbly.

Then, some things that confuse me.

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

Then, a general technical question about how the trigger and dead time works. I figured that the DSO works by sampling the input and writing this to a ring buffer with size specified by memory depth. If a trigger event happens, the ring buffer is frozen (no new data is written to it) and the contents are what you call a "captured waveform" and will be displayed on the screen. After the buffer readout is complete, sampling continues. Is this correct so far?
How does the trigger work: is it done on the sampled data, or in an analog circuit? For the edge trigger, I guess the former, but I can't imagine that it holds true for the I2C trigger.
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?

At some places, the scope feels quite sluggish when moving or resizing curves. For example, in FFT mode, it seems to recalculate the FFT each time you move the reference level, making it feel quite sluggish to change that. It would be really great if Rigol fixed this, it wouldn't be very difficult ;)
It's not a big deal anyways, it just feels a bit slow in some situations (not that it would be any faster if they'd just move the curves, but it would *feel* faster).

Thanks for the nice amount of information collected in this thread anyways, very useful!

Greetings,
Sven

_______________________
P.S.: marmad, I sent you a private message. ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2013, 12:35:24 pm

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

There is a plug on the hole. You can take it off.


Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

Push the tip harder. It will click to its place.


About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

I have not found alt trigger either.



Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?

Yes, 50 ohm feed through adapter should be better.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 12:46:12 pm
Hi!

There is a plug on the hole. You can take it off.
Ah, okay. I tought so at first, but when it wasn't reasonably easy to remove, I just gave up on that.

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?
Push the tip harder. It will click to its place.
Haha, yeah, it really does -- stupid me. Thanks.


About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.
I have not found alt trigger either.
Ok, then I guess it's just not there.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?
Yes, 50 ohm feed through adapter should be better.
I'll probably buy one then, they're not very expensive.

Greetings,
Sven
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 01:01:26 pm
About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

For some reason, Rigol didn't include it in the DS2000 series - perhaps because of the ASIC they're using for the fast wfrm/s update rate - I don't know.

Quote
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and if (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?

Yes, in principle, the 'dead time' extends from the trigger moment. But for fast signals, you might have to consider the hold-off as well. The trigger system is not activated until a specified amount of samples are measured after starting the measurement (the trigger hold-off). When the input signal meets the trigger requirements during the trigger hold-off period, this will not generate a trigger and the system will remain sampling pre-samples. After the trigger hold-off has passed, at the first occasion that the trigger conditions are met, the system will start measuring post samples.

Quote
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Yes, but there can actually be only ONE final waveform in the sample memory eventually, so even though you see the contents of the waveform buffer (> 1 waveform) when you STOP the DSO - as soon as you change the horizontal or vertical scale, you see the display 'snap' to the last waveform captured.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 01, 2013, 01:03:42 pm
Hi!

Since recently I also own a DS2000 series scope (the 200MHz version) and I have some questions and comments too.


Then, some things that confuse me.

In the drawings, the probes that come with the scope have two adjustment screws, for LF / HF or so, one on the plug and one on the probe itself. Mine only have a screw on the plug and the hole on the probe is filled with plastic stuff (but the hole can be seen clearly). Is that normal?

Also about the probes, the hooktip accessoires don't stick to the probes well, they very easily slip off a bit and then you're confused why you don't measure anything. Am I just too stupid to mount them (you just need to push them over the probe front, right?) or is this really a problem?

About the trigger, can I somehow trigger Ch1 and Ch2 seperately? Isn't that a sort of common feature? My old 1970 scope could do that, anyways ;)
It's not a big problem because the memory depth is so huge, but it would still be nice in some situations.

Then, why did Rigol decide not to have a 50 Ohm input on the scope? I found that many of the scopes on the market don't have it. Is it because it's a bit easy to destroy with high-power input?
Anyways, if I plug a BNC T piece directly into the scope input, and terminate one end with a 50 ohm load, and plug my 50 ohm signal into the other, that will basically be a 50 ohm input with still accurate voltage measurements; correct?


Greetings,
Sven

I miss also the alternate trigger that is common on cheapo scoops, i did not found a workaround yet.

And yes about the 50 ohms it is not correct..., the BNC connector has not a high impedance for higher frequencies,
so the voltage on the BNC connector is not wath it is. Mine has 1 Mohm and 18 pf input, and also some inductance.
Even if you have a 50 ohm terminator on the input, the BNC connector has a complex impedance, which gives
wrong readings and also standing waves, as you can see on your plot. I measured on my Rigol 2072, that on 200 Mhz
the voltage drop by just connecting was 3 dB on a cable with T connector and 50 ohm termination, due to complex impedance.

So if possible i am very curious if you can measure then bandwidth on some points like 100-150-200Mhz...??

And the probes are oke for frequencies to 30 Mhz, and for pulse signals. For hihger frequencies you have to
use terminated cables. See also former posts.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 01:20:36 pm
And the probes are oke for frequencies to 30 Mhz, and for pulse signals. For hihger frequencies you have to
use terminated cables. See also former posts.

Just to put things in perspective, I would guess that this is likely true for almost, if not every DSO cheaper than the DS2000 series - and possibly more expensive scopes like the lower-end Hamegs and the Agilent 2000X series as well.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2013, 01:22:16 pm
I have made some tests in the earlier posts. With T-adapter and 50 ohm terminator the responce curve is quite straight to 70 MHz. After that there is some SWR. I have not either this 50 ohm feed through terminator. I have bought it but not got it yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 01:38:52 pm
That is correct, thats why you have also special probes and active probes. If you want to do lab measurements
then you have to think about all these things. these cable reflections has so many influences.

I have worked for a cerfication calibration company, and before you were allowed to do any measuremts, you had
to follow several courses for several months. Anyone can read a display, but only a few knows what they measure.

Do you know of any decent probe brands for sale (~250MHz) that don't cost an arm and a leg?  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 01, 2013, 02:10:35 pm
Active probe Rigol RP7150 Fits for Rigol Series 4000, 6000 costs  3268 Eur. There is no for DS2000. If there is some it needs a separate power supply. Maybe somebody has self made.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 03:07:28 pm
Quote
From the above, I would conclude that dead times only happen after trigger events. So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and if (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure. Is that correct?

Yes, in principle, the 'dead time' extends from the trigger moment. But for fast signals, you might have to consider the hold-off as well. The trigger system is not activated until a specified amount of samples are measured after starting the measurement (the trigger hold-off). When the input signal meets the trigger requirements during the trigger hold-off period, this will not generate a trigger and the system will remain sampling pre-samples. After the trigger hold-off has passed, at the first occasion that the trigger conditions are met, the system will start measuring post samples.
Okay, I guess this is to have a consistent amounts of samples available for the user to scroll through before the trigger ... triggers.
Once the system is running, this will basically just add to the dead time tough, won't it? *

Quote
Oh also, the DS2202 seems to display more than one captured waveform per screen update, even with Min persistence time set. "Min" apparently means "all waveforms captured since the last screen refresh"... which is just fine. It implies, however, that pressing STOP while the scope is in T'D or AUTO state will not have the same result as pressing SINGLE, then FORCE (or waiting for a trigger event), since the former might display more than one waveform on the screen.

Yes, but there can actually be only ONE final waveform in the sample memory eventually, so even though you see the contents of the waveform buffer (> 1 waveform) when you STOP the DSO - as soon as you change the horizontal or vertical scale, you see the display 'snap' to the last waveform captured.
Aah, alright, interesting. So they probably just use a screen buffer and draw all captured waveforms into it, and then 30 times per second (or whatever the screen refresh rate is), they swap the buffer to the screen and clear it? That sounds logical. Thanks for explaining!

Quote from: wim13
And yes about the 50 ohms it is not correct..., the BNC connector has not a high impedance for higher frequencies,
so the voltage on the BNC connector is not wath it is. Mine has 1 Mohm and 18 pf input, and also some inductance.
Even if you have a 50 ohm terminator on the input, the BNC connector has a complex impedance, which gives
wrong readings and also standing waves, as you can see on your plot.
Alright, so altough it should in theory be correct it is not because the plug screws things up... which likely won't be the case in a professionally made 50 ohm adaptor. Fine.

Quote from: EV
Active probe Rigol RP7150 Fits for Rigol Series 4000, 6000 costs  3268 Eur. There is no for DS2000.
Given that's more than twice the price of the scope that is not very surprising ;)

Greetings,
Sven


___________
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic ;) see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/If_and_only_if)
The "sic" behind it is used to tell that the previous thing which was said is believed by the author to be correct altough it might seem weird.
Sorry for that, I tought it was commonly used in the English language.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 03:18:25 pm
Okay, I guess this is to have a consistent amounts of samples available for the user to scroll through before the trigger ... triggers.
Once the system is running, this will basically just add to the dead time tough, won't it? *

Yes, if you consider it as coming after the normal post-trigger processing dead time - and before the next trigger.

Quote
Aah, alright, interesting. So they probably just use a screen buffer and draw all captured waveforms into it, and then 30 times per second (or whatever the screen refresh rate is), they swap the buffer to the screen and clear it? That sounds logical. Thanks for explaining!

Yes - like a 3D buffer for stacking the waveforms to set the alpha (or intensity grading). There are some quite good descriptions around for DPOs = Digital Phosphor Oscilloscopes - which is technically what the UltraVision line is (as opposed to a normal DSO).

Quote
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic

Yes, of course - I knew this - but the weird thing is that I don't remember processing it OR correcting the writing :) I must have done that without even thinking about it. But then looking back to your original statement as logic:

"So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure."

is NOT true - because you can also set the trigger to Single mode with the same outcome  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 03:36:12 pm
Ok, thanks for refining the explanations -- I think it's clear now.

Quote
* That "iff" you corrected to "if" was not a typo, it was borrowed from formal logic

Yes, of course - I knew this - but the weird thing is that I don't remember processing it OR correcting the writing :) I must have done that without even thinking about it.
Haha now that's funny. Maybe some software corrected it, somewhere?

Quote
But then looking back to your original statement as logic:

"So, if there's a one-time event you set the edge trigger up for, and iff (sic) you set the trigger to Normal mode (not Auto), you'll capture it for sure."

is NOT true - because you can also set the trigger to Single mode with the same outcome  ;)
Right. ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 03:41:29 pm
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064) - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andersm on January 01, 2013, 04:01:45 pm
This is problematic, because it does not appear always on every saving and loading.
Is there a difference if you immediately reload after saving, or if you perform some additional measurements in between? From the descriptions, it sounds like the scope draws whatever is in the sample memory instead of the missing data, and if you just do a save and reload, chances are the original data is still there.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dougg on January 01, 2013, 04:04:05 pm
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064) - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).

Since you (marmad) are the main contributor to this thread (and several other DS2000 related threads on EEV forums), perhaps you might consider starting a webpage (or wiki) containing the collected wisdom on this subject. Perhaps Dave might help out with space and a reasonably well known domain name.

Decoding posts in such a long thread (actually 3 overlapping threads) can be time consuming. For example, the "F7-F6-F7" key sequence had me scratching my head. You won't find a key called "F7" in the Rigol manual or its help pages.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 04:05:11 pm
Is there a difference if you immediately reload after saving, or if you perform some additional measurements in between? From the descriptions, it sounds like the scope draws whatever is in the sample memory instead of the missing data, and if you just do a save and reload, chances are the original data is still there.

Not tested yet - the parameters of this bug are still unknown - and I haven't had the time to do a thorough investigation. Perhaps you'd like to discover them?  ;)

Since you (marmad) are the main contributor to this thread (and several other DS2000 related threads on EEV forums), perhaps you might consider starting a webpage (or wiki) containing the collected wisdom on this subject. Perhaps Dave might help out with space and a reasonably well known domain name.

Ahh... because I have sunk tons of time into these threads for other DS2000 owners - why not sink more?  ;)  Seriously, though I'm barely managing my time as it is - I leave this burden to someone else  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 01, 2013, 04:05:53 pm
@scummos

BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064) - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).

Here are my results. 20 ns , , 52700 with dots and 44500 with vectors on 1 mhz half scale...
but when push to full scale it drops to 38100 , so the vertical scale has also influence.

Same with 100 mhz, at 20 ns, 13600 half scale, and 10600 full scale, also freq. has influence.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 04:09:43 pm
but when push to full scale it drops to 38100 , so the vertical scale has also influence.

Everything can have an influence - even Menus displayed or not. Best case wfrm/s rates are often based on one - and only one - setting of ALL parameters on the scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 04:12:03 pm
BTW, I don't know how much of this exponentially-growing thread you've managed to cover, but in case you missed this post regarding the wfrm/s rate of the scope (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg160064/#msg160064) - it might be of interest to you. It shows that the 20ns timebase scale is the optimal one to use (if possible) when glitch-hunting (i.e. smallest amount of dead time).
Yeah, I had seen that post, thanks for pointing it out. (I haven't read all of the thread(s) tough, it's *really* large)
I'm not really hunting glitches currently, I'm just trying to get a better understanding of how it all works, since I feel that is important when using an instrument, if only to avoid faulty measurements. It's neverthereless a nice bit of information that the waveform update rate is best at 20ns/div timescale.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 04:15:20 pm
Here's a "before" and "after" picture of how the fast waveform capture rate is showing clearly a glitch - and how the stopped scope is showing the final capture.

This is taken while the scope is running:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35978;image)

This is taken when the scope is stopped - showing exactly what is currently in sample memory:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=35980;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 04:26:47 pm
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 01, 2013, 04:51:50 pm
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)

Are using the Lan or the USB interface.., ?
I have only the IVI drivers loaded yet, could not download the Ultra Sigma software, the Rigol site is so slow.
Does your software run without the Rigol Ultra Sigma..?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: larsie on January 01, 2013, 05:12:29 pm
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)

I can second this. The Marmad software tool is gold when wanting to take quick snapshots of the scope screen. The process is faster, easier and the resulting file is better for web (though there might be some setting I don't know about to fix the save-directly-to-usb-format for the more traditional usb stick storage).

The software is easy to install, free and works well. Just download the USB drivers (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/3342 (http://joule.ni.com/nidu/cds/view/p/id/3342)) and download the files from Marmad's separate software-thread into a separate directory, and run it and it works.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 01, 2013, 05:24:57 pm
DS2000 series owners check your heat sink clips!

Thanks for reporting this Martin. Unfortunately there's no easy way to check them without taking off that pesky sticker - aside from shaking the device - which might cause the problem.

I've never been a big fan of this method of spring retention - it's always seemed a little dubious to me. I've had them come off on three different motherboards over the years.

I just used a flashlight and looked through the vents as shown in one of the pics.  You can see all the clips and retainers this way, though it does take some work to get the viewing angle and flashlight angles...  I didn't remove my Void sticker.   The shaking I did was mostly just rolilng the parts around near the vents.  No where near what a real product verification vibration test would do:)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andersm on January 01, 2013, 05:54:33 pm
Not tested yet - the parameters of this bug are still unknown - and I haven't had the time to do a thorough investigation. Perhaps you'd like to discover them?  ;)
Send me a scope and I'd be happy to.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: SeanB on January 01, 2013, 05:58:21 pm
Mike of Electricstuff.co.uk did do a neat little video of precisely how to get around that particular sticker, on a similar model as well. That was a fascination demo, very good and detailed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 05:59:40 pm
Are using the Lan or the USB interface.., ?
I have only the IVI drivers loaded yet, could not download the Ultra Sigma software, the Rigol site is so slow.
Does your software run without the Rigol Ultra Sigma..?

@Wim: You can use either LAN or USB - although I didn't write any code for sniffing out LAN connections through VISA (which aren't quite as detectable as the USB plug and play) - so if the software doesn't find the LAN connection on it's own, just type the following string while inserting your own IP address in place of this sample one:     TCPIP::192.168.1.200::INSTR
But keep in mind - it takes 2.3 seconds for a screen grab over USB - and about 6 seconds via LAN. Not a big deal with a single capture - but if you want to compile an animated GIF from 1000 frames, it starts to add up.

BTW, there aren't IVI drivers for the DS2000 yet - so I'm not sure what you're referring to. This was one of the first things I asked my dealer about - and Rigol's response was:
"About IVI driver for DS2000, I note that R&D have put this in the plan list but the concrete date I still don't know. When its released we will put it on the website."

Yes, no need for Ultra Sigma - although it van be handy for debugging problems with the scope. Just NI-VISA runtime.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 01, 2013, 06:05:07 pm
@ Marmad, its working, using Visa511runtime as driver.

Windows XP 32 bit, and via TCP/IP

The TCP-Ip command was on the info page of the scoop when you open the browser page.

And you can run more then once, i have now open three times
with different info. We will play with the software.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 06:23:36 pm
I can't believe that when I first started playing around with making movies from recorded frames I was stacking .BMP files into massive .MP4 movies  :P  and with almost no compression, of course, because you would lose the detail of the waveform. It took awhile to finally penetrate my thick skull that animated GIFs were much better for this 'vector' animation  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 06:25:44 pm
I just used a flashlight and looked through the vents as shown in one of the pics.  You can see all the clips and retainers this way, though it does take some work to get the viewing angle and flashlight angles...  I didn't remove my Void sticker.   The shaking I did was mostly just rolilng the parts around near the vents.  No where near what a real product verification vibration test would do:)

Thanks for this info, Martin. Maybe we all need to do a minor shake test once a day before we bootup (and with power cord unplugged)  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on January 01, 2013, 09:23:17 pm
Is that software of yours cross-platform, so it could be ported to another OS by implementing a different backend for device communication? What language is it written in? Did you consider putting it on e.g. github? ;)

Greetings,
Sven
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 01, 2013, 09:36:22 pm
Is that software of yours cross-platform, so it could be ported to another OS by implementing a different backend for device communication? What language is it written in? Did you consider putting it on e.g. github? ;)

VB.NET - because I already had some SCPI modules written from when I briefly owned a DS1052E.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 02, 2013, 06:10:49 am
I posted an update on IVI drivers/info for the DS2000 series in the "Software & Tips" thread.  See my post here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg177056/#msg177056 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg177056/#msg177056)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jeeff47 on January 02, 2013, 07:00:00 am
Wow... you guys sure hit the thread hard in the last 24h... took me a little to catch up.
Thanks for all the thoughts and info everyone.

So just to confirm... I know on pg 22 or 23 people were talking about scope probes and someone pointed out that there are currently no alternate probes that can be used with the Rigol DS2000 models. This is due to how the probes are powered?
So overall its essentially confirmed that there are currently no Tek, Agilent or other scope probes that are not cross compatible?

I also experienced issues with the probe clips not staying on the scope probe I will try and "click" the tips on there; hopefully I wont break anything.

Thank you for posting about the heat sink? Aside from the one person on here and the video which was created back in September (?) which was mentioned in Dave's video(?)(I could be wrong of the alternate place i heard of this); has anybody else experienced any issues with this? Do you know when you scope was manufactured?

The way to determine this is in your serial number for instance:
DS2A143500123
the 14 represents rigols 14th year of operation
and the 35 represents the 35th week in that year.

Maybe this is a batch issue?


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 02, 2013, 05:21:03 pm
Wow... you guys sure hit the thread hard in the last 24h... took me a little to catch up.
Thanks for all the thoughts and info everyone.

So just to confirm... I know on pg 22 or 23 people were talking about scope probes and someone pointed out that there are currently no alternate probes that can be used with the Rigol DS2000 models. This is due to how the probes are powered?
So overall its essentially confirmed that there are currently no Tek, Agilent or other scope probes that are not cross compatible?


The way to determine this is in your serial number for instance:
DS2A143500123
the 14 represents rigols 14th year of operation
and the 35 represents the 35th week in that year.

Maybe this is a batch issue?

Rigol was founded in 1998, + 14 is 2012, mine serial number has 14 and 47 , so should be 2012, nov 19
that is quite new..

About the probes, yes there are cross compatible probes, a lot, but they cost a lot, on the agilent site
there are more then 100 kinds, but also second hand on the site of www.helmut-singer.de (http://www.helmut-singer.de) on the scoop accessories page.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 02, 2013, 07:13:19 pm
Hi,  DS2072   FW1.00.02    DSA1421xxxxx
when the stick was inserted/left-in before start-up .
Is this to prevent boot from Stick?
Is this only on 1.00.02?

Yes, i dont have this, on 1.00,05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 02, 2013, 07:15:40 pm
When loading Waveforms from a USB Stick I have to remove the stick and re-insert after I have  selected Storage, Load, when the stick was inserted/left-in before start-up .
Is this only on 1.00.02?

This isn't a problem for me using 01.00.05. Have you tried alternate sticks? Some devices are notoriously picky about the brand.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 02, 2013, 07:34:24 pm
My Story to here!
    I was working on a project that needed a storage scope ,it was to measure motor Tach Voltages running very slow ,2 RPM with lots of Commutator Ripple. at 2s/div scan;  So I went t on a search for a DSO , And found reviews and Praise for DS1052 and the hack.  Then I found Marmad's series of Reviews. (*rigolds1052, Hantek, Owen, and I my wish list got more clarified.  I almost went for the Owen for the Battery Feature but waited.
I learnt about Sample time, equivalent Sample time,  Bandwidth, hacks, analog frontend, quality,screen size, resolution. memory depth.....

I looked at high-end stuff,  and lucked upon
Agilent InfiniiVision 2000 X-Series vs. Tektronix TDS2000 Series oscilloscopes (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTI8fp-z4y0#)

I almost bought an agilent at $2000,
but heard that DS2000 was coming.  I knew that Rigol and Agilent had a deal and hope there was some design exchanged , Then when we all got the DS2000 specs, looking a lot like Agilent 2000x , with 50,000 Frame updates and , wow 56Mpts Depth. , I bought.

I had already received DS2072, before Dave's reviews and Tear down,   " I Like It !!!"
Good to see inside.
I do give Praise to Marmad, and Recommend Rigol reward him with a Bonus, "Free Upgrade to Options"


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 02, 2013, 10:19:12 pm
I do give Praise to Marmad, and Recommend Rigol reward him with a Bonus, "Free Upgrade to Options"
Thanks for the kind words, Teneyes. I did actually get one free license code for my Rigol - for the extra triggers - but that was more through the kindness and generosity of my dealer, drieg (http://www.silcon.cz/index.php?route=common/home) - than through Rigol. He was offered some compensation from Rigol because of the problems and service needed surrounding the early firmware of the DS4000 - and one thing he got from them was one of the option codes for me - to thank me for making the review and promoting the DS2000 series. Quite unexpected and generous of him. I still highly recommend him as the place to buy a Rigol for Europeans - with the same price / free delivery as Batronix - but much more personal and knowledgeable after-service.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 02, 2013, 10:52:55 pm
When loading Waveforms from a USB Stick I have to remove the stick and re-insert after I have  selected Storage, Load, when the stick was inserted/left-in before start-up .
Is this only on 1.00.02?

This isn't a problem for me using 01.00.05. Have you tried alternate sticks? Some devices are notoriously picky about the brand.
If it's anything like my DG4062, it'll be horribly picky - and the faults that show up vary between memory sticks. I had one not recognised at all, one became unreadable in the PC after being used in the Rigol, and one would work OK in both Rigol and PC, but they were clearly accessing different memory areas in the Flash because neither could see the other's files (and would clearly end up corrupting and overwriting them).

My dealer recommended Integral brand sticks as being ones which they'd found to work, and sure enough, I found an Integral 16GB stick worked fine:

http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002RL52K8/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00 (http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B002RL52K8/ref=oh_details_o00_s00_i00)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: AndyC_772 on January 02, 2013, 10:56:09 pm
...because of the problems and service needed surrounding the early firmware of the DS4000...
I know the DS4000 series is more expensive and there aren't quite so many around, but: am I to assume that the DS4000 series runs similar firmware and suffers from similar bugs to the DS2000 series? If I were looking at ordering one soon, should I hold off or at least insist on it being supplied with a particular firmware version?

Is there a list of known bugs in the DS4000 series anywhere?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 02, 2013, 11:24:25 pm
I know the DS4000 series is more expensive and there aren't quite so many around, but: am I to assume that the DS4000 series runs similar firmware and suffers from similar bugs to the DS2000 series? If I were looking at ordering one soon, should I hold off or at least insist on it being supplied with a particular firmware version?

Is there a list of known bugs in the DS4000 series anywhere?

Clearly the entire 'new' UltraVision line (2000/4000/6000) must share a similar platform - and thus, must share some code - but I haven't seen a bug list for the 4000 or 6000 series - and the 2000 shares some features with the 6000, but not the 4000 - and has some unique features all it's own (like the 500uV sensitivity). So I don't think you can make any assumptions about shared bugs - best to confer with DS4000 owners. I'd hoped that a few would join in on this thread, but I haven't noticed if they have. The particular problem that I mentioned above was a bug in the early firmware of the 4000 series which caused corruption of the internal FLASH memory - and could lead to bricking (and so requiring service). I know that that bug has been eliminated in the latest FW.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 03, 2013, 02:54:56 am
Also, since I have the animated GIF option as a kind of compiled version of the screen images - I'd like to do the same for the CSV output. Does anyone know if you can make a database file that is in CSV format? So it could be opened in Access or another DB program?
To what purpose? A relational database isn't really appropriate for this sort of data I don't think. Though most database engines I'm familiar with can import CSV fairly easily (Postgres, MySQL and Oracle all can).

Have just ordered my DS2072 thanks to this thread and particularly your posts marmad. Thanks for the info and software, I'm sure I will be satisfied. Waiting anxiously for a shipment notification so I can play ;).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 03, 2013, 04:07:35 am
Well, I'm not sure - maybe we can discover a purpose later. But originally the idea was just as a possible solution to an organizational problem - if you want a voltage record of each waveform stored in a 100 different frames, the DS2000 doesn't allow you to save any files when in Record mode. But my software can pull out that voltage record from each frame and save it as a CSV file, but then you have a 100 (or whatever) separate CSV files. I thought it might be handier to have it stored in a single file, as a database of frames connected via their relationship to time. Anyway, just trying to think of more efficient ways to save recorded data for possible analysis or processing later.
I see what you mean, maybe something a little more elegant than a bunch of timestamped text files is required... Maybe a simple XML format? Unless you're planning on writing a 'waveform management system' as well though (and I'm sure many would be happy if you were!), this might be one to leave as an exercise to the reader. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andrewfernie on January 03, 2013, 12:46:32 pm
BTW, in the interest of pushing the software I'm writing on more owners ;)  it takes the Rigol 15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick - and then, of course, there's the time needed to transfer the stick to a computer and read the file. It takes the Rigol UltraVision Utilities 2.3 seconds (using USB) to transfer the data to the PC and save it  :)


Works like a charm.

In addition to it being faster you also get the opportunity to enter a (hopefully meaningful) name for the file as you save it.

Thank you for the work you have put into the application - much appreciated.

Andrew
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 03, 2013, 01:52:38 pm
This thread veered off into the software side - so in the interest of a little thread management, I'm going to repost this short discussion over in the other thread and delete my (software-related) comments here.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 03, 2013, 07:00:06 pm
  I find that if Counter is On ,
 AUTO does not work
Does this happen on FW=1.00.05?

It seems to work for me with FW 01.00.05:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=36102;image)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 03, 2013, 07:06:09 pm
  I find that if Counter is On ,
 AUTO does not work
Does this happen on FW=1.00.05?

It seems to work for me with FW 01.00.05:

It works here too. When I noticed this problem, I had also FW 1.00.02. Now it is 1.00.05 and I have not used AUTO for a long time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on January 03, 2013, 07:40:31 pm
DS2072   FW=1.00.02
Update on Bug 7.) AUTO routine sometimes fails
  I find that if Counter is On, one channel Only ,
 AUTO does not work
   changes trigger and scan rate
   and only displays a blank Menu
See Displays att.

On my DS2072 with the .02 FW AUTO sometimes fails like you mention when the Counter is On and one channel selected, but it sometimes works (despite using an identical input signal).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: michi on January 04, 2013, 07:34:52 am
Hi Marmad, and everybody else

Based on your great review on the DS2072 and the posts to the EEVblog forum here, I decided to order the DS2072 for myself. Thank you all!

I did so trough Rigols official distributor for Switzerland. As soon as it arrives I will post software version and hardware revision, for you guys to see (to confirm your theory about RigolNa and Rigol Europe shipping different firmwares), also to see if there is already newer firmware on the market.

I hope that I can contribute to your efforts, especially help testing RUU software, where I find the GIFs absolutely brilliant.

As for my motivation, I have this idea that I might be possible to combine the readings from the DSO and feed it somehow into the software from saleae to allow decoding of two-channel protocols like I2C. (Or maybe into sump - altough it looks a lot less appealing than the software from saleae). Maybe I can contribute something to your effords here.

I'll update you as soon as the scope arrives.  :D



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 05, 2013, 04:56:46 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: CarlG on January 05, 2013, 05:43:25 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

You've set the trigger level just below the "hat" level, so naturally that is what the scope is triggering on. Set the trigger to mid level of the sine instead, and see if you can see the hat then. If not, set to inifinite persistence.

//C
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 05, 2013, 05:54:29 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

You've set the trigger level just below the "hat" level, so naturally that is what the scope is triggering on. Set the trigger to mid level of the sine instead, and see if you can see the hat then. If not, set to inifinite persistence.

//C

My scope shows the same thing and it definitely appears to be trigger related.  I'm guessing you are running averaging?  My signal is a lot noisier without averaging.  I also noticed if you lower the trigger level the 'hat' follows, but is less obvious when not on the peak.  When you turn averaging off, it appears there is much less noise displayed at the triggerpoint compared to the rest of the wave.

Another thing I notice is the scope loses trigger if you go below ~ the zero crossing of the sine wave.  This is while using rising edge trigger.  The opposite is true with falling edge trigger.   

I think the waveform is only triggering above the peak of your sinewave, therefore is showing 'noise' in that particular peak. because it can't get averaged out...because it is there everytime it triggers.  The 'hat' effect becomes less noticable as amplitude increases because your signal to noise ratio improves.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 05, 2013, 08:08:29 pm
Quote
Why doesn't the DSO show "T'D" ? ,Triggered , with the peak of wave well above trigger level

I'm not sure why, but if you move the trigger up any more it will lose trigger.  It's acting as though the real trigger level is lower than the displayed trigger level.   This is how it's working on my scope anyway.  Note I have not been running the calibration routine as I don't want to lose the trial features.  Not sure if this could be a factor.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on January 06, 2013, 06:50:03 am
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

My scope does the same thing and I think martinv's explanation is correct.  The scope is triggering on noise on top of the peak of the sine wave (there's apparently an offset for these tiny voltages).  This noise shows as a peak at the trigger point because it survives the averaging, as it is correlated because it's triggering on that.  But away from the trigger time, the noise is not correlated so it gets averaged out.  So I think it's just an artifact of the trigger/averaging process and not a bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 06, 2013, 12:08:32 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point,
DS2072 Fw1.00.02 for clarity, I suggest prefix with Model and FW

What does the '*' mean on the "700 pts*"?

Why doesn't the DSO show "T'D" ? ,Triggered , with the peak of wave well above trigger level

I never see "RUN", on top left of my DSO

I only see  AUTO, |AUTO| reversed, and T'D when in Auto
  Maybe changed in your later FW?

In the user guide, page 1-22 there is also stop and run possible..
i must say it is the first time i saw run also over there, the user guide dont tell much about it.

And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 06, 2013, 12:14:36 pm
Strange hat,

My scope does the same thing and I think martinv's explanation is correct.  The scope is triggering on noise on top of the peak of the sine wave (there's apparently an offset for these tiny voltages).  This noise shows as a peak at the trigger point because it survives the averaging, as it is correlated because it's triggering on that.  But away from the trigger time, the noise is not correlated so it gets averaged out.  So I think it's just an artifact of the trigger/averaging process and not a bug.

I also do not think it is a bug, but search for an explanation.
The trigger has no connection with the avarage, and the trigger is always in this case in the middle,
so for the trigger it is a almost a fix point, for the avarage not.

But you also see it with avarage off, only more difficult to see
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 06, 2013, 01:57:55 pm
Quote
I also do not think it is a bug, but search for an explanation.
The trigger has no connection with the avarage, and the trigger is always in this case in the middle,
so for the trigger it is a almost a fix point, for the avarage not.

But you also see it with avarage off, only more difficult to see

Even without averaging, it is still triggering on the peak of the noise.  Probably less noticable without averaging because it becomes more hidden in the noise. (Assuming your waveform is noisy like mine when averaging is off). 
I don't recall seeing this effect on the Tektronix scopes at my work place, but I don't think I ever looked at such weak signals on them. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dougg on January 06, 2013, 03:10:59 pm
Strange hat,

On small signals of about 1 mV i get a strange hat on
the trigger point, see att. picture, that little peak on the middle
of the screen on the top of the sinus.

It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

Another observation is that the 10 MHz sine wave is not at a sufficient level to have its frequency counted: "< 15 Hz".
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 06, 2013, 04:51:58 pm
Strange hat,

Note the generator reads 536 uV, so very good rms on the scoop.

Another observation is that the 10 MHz sine wave is not at a sufficient level to have its frequency counted: "< 15 Hz".

The counter needs some level to operate, even if you have a strong signal,
and turn down the sensitivity of the selected channel, the counter goes off.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 06, 2013, 07:12:20 pm
Strange hat, and now a Ditch
It is only at the trigger point, perhaps to do with noise
trigger or something..?
I'm DS2072   FW=1.00.02  Trial options
I see this as the compilation of 2 criteria, averaging signal But only show the peak trigger point at the center of the screen. So the high point is always stable where as the  rest is averaged.
in the 1st display I show just noise but the Hat is there , 8 sample averaging
(Note at 50ns , 700 pts memory)

In the 2nd display I show using runt  triggering and the trigger window levels
(Note at 20ns , displays 700 pts* memory)

In the 3rd display I show, using runt  triggering ,   a "Ditch"
Is the "Ditch" a Glitch in the software?   ;)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 06, 2013, 07:30:04 pm
Strange hat,

DS2202   FW=1.00.05, BW limit set to 20 MHz. There is some offset present too. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 07, 2013, 03:22:09 am
(different topic from the last several posts)
I have a question about the Record/Play back functions.  I tried using the serial decode function and found about the maximum I could fit on 1 screen is as shown in the attached picture.

Now I can zoom much further out in the horizontal scale and capture a huge chuck of data then zoom back in to read/decode it. 
I figured this would be a great use for the record and playback,  but I discovered large gaps of lost data between each recorded frame/(screen).  I'm assuming this is normal?

So i'm back to the zoom way out, grab a screen with max data points, then zoom back in to read/decode.   
Instead of scrolling with the tiny horizontal knob, WHY can't this nice big jog wheel be used to scroll quickly forward and back instead of using the little horizontal knob.  Wouldn't this be a huge improvement? Perhaps this could included in a future update.   I feel like hooking up my cordless drill to the Horizontal knob sometimes:)   
I don't have much experience in capturing/decoding data, so please let me know your thoughts and preffered methods of doing this.   
What are some of the other uses for the record/playback feature? 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JOHNJB on January 07, 2013, 04:37:56 am
So it looks that the bandwidth at the BNC connector is 200 Mhz at -3 db,
if you ingnore the impedance changes at the BNC input.
Keep in mind that it is a 1 Mohm 18 pf input. The scoops >200 Mhz
have also 50 ohms inputs.

Anyone who can verify ??


I have tested the BW of my DS2102
with some nice results, summarizing:

BW in BNC= 190Mhz.
BW in 1/10 probe = 244Mhz.

Trigger OK just 375Mhz.
Counter just 410Mhz - accuracy -0,+2 last digit.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2013, 05:52:02 am
And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.

It means <= 700 bytes. Depending on the timebase setting, frame recording, and other settings, the sample size can continue to drop in AUTO mode - following the defined scale: 560 -> 140 -> (70) -> 56 bytes - which appears to be the smallest size used - which equals 4 points per division.

If you are seeing strange artifacts (like this 'hat') you are describing when at "700*" - you should first determine exactly how many points are being used to define this artifact (which might come from aliasing). This is easy to do by switching to dot mode and stopping the DSO when the "700*" is displayed. At these lower sample settings, it's often easy to count the points per division.

You can also see the actual sample size when at "700* by running my Read Memory Test  - the real size being reported to the STATUS command.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 07, 2013, 06:16:27 am
I figured this would be a great use for the record and playback,  but I discovered large gaps of lost data between each recorded frame/(screen).  I'm assuming this is normal?

Not normal, no, unless it's what you wanted - or you didn't quite understand how the recording works. The DSO records each frame when triggered (with a possible delay interval before re-arming the trigger).  If I wanted to capture, for example, loads of I2C data - I might set up the I2C trigger so that it would record a frame for each packet. A slow recurring trigger will mean slow recording, with lots of time between - fast recurring triggers the opposite. Bigger memory depths will mean less possible frames - but more data per frame. The fastest possible record rate is limited by the waveform capture rate at any particular timebase setting (i.e. fastest record rates are at 20ns).

Quote
Instead of scrolling with the tiny horizontal knob, WHY can't this nice big jog wheel be used to scroll quickly forward and back instead of using the little horizontal knob.  Wouldn't this be a huge improvement?

Hmm... I'm not exactly sure what you're doing when "zooming" - but in fact, you CAN use the 'big jog wheel' for doing exactly what you're talking about in Delayed Sweep mode (windowed zoom). You actually have three distinct controls you can use: the Navigation Knob, the Navigation Wheel, and the Horizontal Position Knob. If you happen to be both frame recording AND in delayed sweep - the Navigation Knob and Wheel become dedicated to frame playback - and only the Hor.Position knob is then used for moving the delay offset (zoom window).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 07, 2013, 11:13:12 am
I have now got the Rigol 50 ohm feed thru terminator. In the first picture is sweep from 1 MHz to 160 MHz using this terminator. The change between max and min level is under 1 dB and compared to 1 MHz level the change is under 0.5 dB.

In the second picture is the same sweep with T-Adapter and 50 ohm terminator. There is no change in the curve, if feed thru terminator is used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 07, 2013, 05:47:39 pm
And the 700* is only in auto mode for memory, cant find any explanation.

It means <= 700 bytes. Depending on the timebase setting, frame recording, and other settings, the sample size can continue to drop in AUTO mode - following the defined scale: 560 -> 140 -> (70) -> 56 bytes - which appears to be the smallest size used - which equals 4 points per division.


Thanks for the explanation, could not find it in the manual.

The 4 points per div is only for the 100 and 200 Mhz models,
The 2072 has only 5 nS per div

At 2 Gsa/s: is 2 samples per 1 nS, so 5 ns is 10 samples per div.
for the 14 div's i get 140 sample points.. as a minimum.

Note, the squares on the screen are not sqaure..
The screen is 15.4 at 8.4 cm, that is 1.1 cm and 1.05 cm

In the X-Y mode the screen is 7.7 and 7.2 cm, what is not a square.



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 07, 2013, 05:50:55 pm
So it looks that the bandwidth at the BNC connector is 200 Mhz at -3 db,
if you ingnore the impedance changes at the BNC input.
Keep in mind that it is a 1 Mohm 18 pf input. The scoops >200 Mhz
have also 50 ohms inputs.

Anyone who can verify ??


I have tested the BW of my DS2102
with some nice results, summarizing:

BW in BNC= 190Mhz.
BW in 1/10 probe = 244Mhz.

Trigger OK just 375Mhz.
Counter just 410Mhz - accuracy -0,+2 last digit.

Thanks for the measurement..,
So the test on the BNC is almost the same,
Only on the probes, thats intresting, i cannot reproduce that.
How was you setup for the probe testing...??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: michi on January 07, 2013, 08:44:58 pm
Hi Marmad, and everybody else

Based on your great review on the DS2072 and the posts to the EEVblog forum here, I decided to order the DS2072 for myself. Thank you all!

 - snip -

I'll update you as soon as the scope arrives.  :D

The scope arrived today, and here are the different software/hardware versions:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.02
Hardware Version: 1.1.0.0
FPGA version:
   SPU: 03.01.02
   WPU: 00.06.00
   CCU: 12.29.00
   MCU 00.05
Serial Number starts with DS2A1432 (2012, week 32)

When I started it up, it showed a remaining 2154 minutes of trial options and I immediately tried to get most out of the option time I have. I am doing I2C analysis, and I am learning to use the record functionality.
The fan is louder than I expected but still OK.
I noticed that when working with I2C decoding, sometimes the decoding stops working (when Power Cycling, or when changing display type from Vector to Dots), but switching "BusStatus" off and on again, solved the problem and it works fine again.

After two fun hours with the DSO, I can make two conclusions:
a) the scope is really fun to work with and
b) for some reason my Basic Micro ARC32 controller seems to always set the first bit to high in each byte read from I2C - I have absolutely no clue why.

ps. I added a screenshot to show an example of I2C decoding  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 08, 2013, 03:37:42 am
After two fun hours with the DSO, I can make two conclusions:
a) the scope is really fun to work with and
b) for some reason my Basic Micro ARC32 controller seems to always set the first bit to high in each byte read from I2C - I have absolutely no clue why.

ps. I added a screenshot to show an example of I2C decoding  :D

Welcome, michi - and thanks for your initial thoughts.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 09, 2013, 06:30:14 am
After a bit of a headache with UPS I received my DS2072 today from Tequipment! To my surprise it seems I've got an even older firmware version than you guys are getting (if I'm reading it right), 00.00.01:
(http://i.imgur.com/Jo35b.png)

I wanted to characterize the scope so I did some measurements with my HP 8657A signal generator using 1m of RG58A/U, I wanted to terminate it to 50R but my BNC tee is not up to the job and I don't have a thru. Unfortunately the flatness of the generator isn't very good without termination, so I won't post numeric results right now. If anyone knows a good source for decent BNC 50R thrus that aren't $50 I'd appreciate it.


I'm going to have a play with the I2C and SPI triggering and decoding and possibly make a video on them.

Overall I'm pretty impressed with the 'scope from the past couple of hours exploring. My biggest disappointment is probably the image capture features. Capturing a PNG file to the USB stick takes like 45 seconds! BMP is faster but still quite a few seconds. I was expecting the 'print' button to be pretty much instant. Copying over the network using RUU (this is great! thanks!) isn't much faster, but I do like the idea of having a network connected 'scope ;).

Now to figure out how to defeat the trial period and get 200MHz bandwidth!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 09, 2013, 07:43:08 am
If anyone knows a good source for decent BNC 50R thrus that aren't $50 I'd appreciate it.


It is here at accessories $ 25.

http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ds2072/ (http://www.rigolna.com/products/digital-oscilloscopes/ds2000/ds2072/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 09, 2013, 07:50:16 am
See
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg172218/#msg172218 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg172218/#msg172218)

for acess to real firmware version number
Thanks Teneyes, I did read talk about this special menu but I thought it was only for upgrading for some reason. Weird that they'd obscure this... anyway I have the same version 1.00.02 that everyone else has.

EV thanks for the tip.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 09, 2013, 08:03:57 am
Hi,

I'm planning to buy a new scope and been thinking whether to get the Owon SDS7102V or Rigol DS2072. The higher bandwidth of Owon is a big plus (-3dB point somewhere near 150MHz), but hunting some random glitches seems to be better in DS2072.
Has anybody measured the actual bandwidth of DS2072? At what frequency might this -3dB point be?

There's of course price difference between these two, but I'd like to by a scope which is usable for many years to come and could be used for various needs.
What might be the best place to purchase DS2072 in Europe (I live in Finland) ? I've checked the Batronix, but are there some other sellers with better price?
I'm thinking that if I buy Owon now, would I find myself buying a better scope after some time...of course battery operation and VGA are nice goodies.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 09, 2013, 08:14:27 am
I'm planning to buy a new scope and been thinking whether to get the Owon SDS7102V or Rigol DS2072. The higher bandwidth of Owon is a big plus (-3dB point somewhere near 150MHz), but hunting some random glitches seems to be better in DS2072.
Has anybody measured the actual bandwidth of DS2072? At what frequency might this -3dB point be?
Mine is around 100MHz. It looks like it's probably the same hardware as the higher bandwidth models though, so there may be a software or hardware hack.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2013, 02:35:33 pm
Overall I'm pretty impressed with the 'scope from the past couple of hours exploring. My biggest disappointment is probably the image capture features. Capturing a PNG file to the USB stick takes like 45 seconds! BMP is faster but still quite a few seconds. I was expecting the 'print' button to be pretty much instant. Copying over the network using RUU (this is great! thanks!) isn't much faster, but I do like the idea of having a network connected 'scope ;).

How could BMPs be faster than PNGs? They are often ~100x bigger - and writing to an external device usually requires more time than processing - although I can't say I've actually timed saving BMPs on the DS2000. Also, I don't know if the brand of USB stick you're using (or FW 01.00.02) affects save/transfer rates - but my timed speeds are:

My Rigol takes ~15 seconds to write a PNG file to a USB stick.

The Rigol UltraVision Utilities take ~2.3 seconds using USB to transfer, convert & save a BMP (all bitmap transfers from the DSO are BMP - conversion to other formats is handled by RUU).

RUU takes ~6 seconds using LAN to transfer, convert & save a BMP.


I would say that if your rates while using RUU are much longer than what is mentioned above, either there is an unreported FW problem in 01.00.02 - or something is wrong with your DSO/connection/network setup.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2013, 02:58:55 pm
What might be the best place to purchase DS2072 in Europe (I live in Finland) ? I've checked the Batronix, but are there some other sellers with better price?
Well, as I mentioned in the video and a couple of times since (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg177291/#msg177291), I recommend people buying in the EU use EEVBlog member drieg. Same price/free shipping as Batronix (I think the price is fixed in the EU - same as in NA)- but much better before/after sales support. Drieg is the one testing and reporting all of the bugs we discover here on the blog to Rigol - and I gather he is perhaps the biggest expert here on all things Rigol.

I bought the DS1052E I owned briefly from Batronix - and my DS2072 from his company - and there can be no comparison as to knowledge/support.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 09, 2013, 03:47:43 pm
How could BMPs be faster than PNGs? They are often ~100x bigger - and writing to an external device usually requires more time than processing - although I can't say I've actually timed saving BMPs on the DS2000. Also, I don't know if the brand of USB stick you're using (or FW 01.00.02) affects save/transfer rates - but my timed speeds are:
PNG is quite often slower even on a fast PC depending on how you set the compression. The CPU in these is not fast. It wouldn't surprise me that much.

However I've done some more poking around and it seems that the problem only happens if you set Storage>Storage to Picture instead of Traces. I'm not sure what the difference is since it seems to produce identical image files, but Traces doesn't allow filetype selection and takes from 2-5s to write to the USB and makes a BMP file.

Thanks for setting me straight, that's a lot better ;).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2013, 04:26:52 pm
However I've done some more poking around and it seems that the problem only happens if you set Storage>Storage to Picture instead of Traces. I'm not sure what the difference is since it seems to produce identical image files, but Traces doesn't allow filetype selection and takes from 2-5s to write to the USB and makes a BMP file.

I'm happy you figured out a method to make it quicker for yourself (although saved traces [the channel data itself] is not the same as a saved bitmap of the entire screen) - but it doesn't really resolve the issue or shed light on the problem behind it - which might be helpful for other 01.00.02 users here.

It takes you 45 seconds to save a PNG picture - but it takes me 15 seconds. Is this a question of firmware - or different USB sticks?

Also, would you please mind posting the time (and connection method) it takes to transfer & save a PNG using RUU? This might help resolve things.

Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 09, 2013, 06:23:41 pm
Well, as I mentioned in the video and a couple of times since (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg177291/#msg177291), I recommend people buying in the EU use EEVBlog member drieg. Same price/free shipping as Batronix (I think the price is fixed in the EU - same as in NA)- but much better before/after sales support. Drieg is the one testing and reporting all of the bugs we discover here on the blog to Rigol - and I gather he is perhaps the biggest expert here on all things Rigol.
Thanks for this information.
It seems that the DS2072 is lacking the alt trigger mode and dual timebase, or have I missed something?

Marmad, can you briefly summarize, what were the main reasons for replacing the Owon with DS2072? Can these reasons justify the price difference...?
Btw, there seems to be slight difference in end user prices (with VAT included) when comparing Batronix to Silicon electronics...(maybe due to different VAT amount).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 09, 2013, 07:01:12 pm
It seems that the DS2072 is lacking the alt trigger mode and dual timebase, or have I missed something?
No alternate trigger - but many other standard included triggers (plus even more via one of the option packages). Yes dual timebase - called Delayed Sweep - which is very easy to enter and exit (via a simple push of the Horizontal Scale knob).

Quote
Marmad, can you briefly summarize, what were the main reasons for replacing the Owon with DS2072? Can these reasons justify the price difference...?
Well, actually, the Owon was replaced with a Hantek - which was later returned. I then continued using my analog Tek scope until I read about the Rigol DS2000 series. But I've spoken/written about this quite a lot already (short synopsis here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/review-of-owon-sds7102/msg58541/#msg58541)) so suffice it to say that all of your instincts (and the stuff you wrote in your previous post) are correct.

Quote
Btw, there seems to be slight difference in end user prices (with VAT included) when comparing Batronix to Silicon electronics...(maybe due to different VAT amount).
I bought my DS2072 through my company (so minus VAT), but if you send drieg a PM or email about the difference, he might be able to help you out.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JOHNJB on January 09, 2013, 10:38:27 pm

[/quote]

Thanks for the measurement..,
So the test on the BNC is almost the same,
Only on the probes, thats intresting, i cannot reproduce that.
How was you setup for the probe testing...??
[/quote]

This is the configuration used (photo).
The coaxial wire as not SWR because finishes with an -30dB attenuator,
As the oscilloscope has no 50H terminator, must place a T whit the 50H load.
The other branch of the T, is connect at BNC of scope.
This small (not at high frequencies) branch approx 8cm. is not well coupled and cause inaccuracies at high frequencies.
I think the measures are very accurate up to 200Mhz.

The probe is connected like in the photo, not used the grund co-codrile tip.

John 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 10, 2013, 04:11:24 am
I'm happy you figured out a method to make it quicker for yourself (although saved traces [the channel data itself] is not the same as a saved bitmap of the entire screen) - but it doesn't really resolve the issue or shed light on the problem behind it - which might be helpful for other 01.00.02 users here.
Okay I did some more testing on this issue. Saving PNGs definitely takes > 30s, whether from the Storage menu or from the Print button after choosing PNG in storage. BMPs do seem to be quick though, around 2s. I think my confusion was in using the Storage menu to change the Print format, I think I must have not confirmed the setting back to BMP before pressing Print.

Quote
It takes you 45 seconds to save a PNG picture - but it takes me 15 seconds. Is this a question of firmware - or different USB sticks?
Could easily be either :)

Quote
Also, would you please mind posting the time (and connection method) it takes to transfer & save a PNG using RUU? This might help resolve things.
6 seconds over Ethernet, from clicking Save on the file picker dialog. BMP is about the same. I don't have a long enough USB cable (or any free ports for that matter...) to test using USB. Thanks for your help :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2013, 04:25:41 am
Okay I did some more testing on this issue. Saving PNGs definitely takes > 30s, whether from the Storage menu or from the Print button after choosing PNG in storage. BMPs do seem to be quick though, around 2s.

Unfortunately I'm not around my scope for awhile so that I might check myself. I was fairly certain that PNGs took about 15 seconds to save, but I never timed the other formats. Now I'm wondering if I timed correctly - or if Rigol optimized their BMP -> PNG conversion code in 05. Any other owner want to time a PNG save to USB stick on their DS2000?

Quote
6 seconds over Ethernet, from clicking Save on the file picker dialog. BMP is about the same.

Ok, that's the same as FW 01.00.05 - so no changes there. The Rigol only transfers BMP files (RUU must do the conversion to any other image type) so the format shouldn't affect the speed in any noticeable way.

Thanks for doing the further testing  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on January 10, 2013, 08:30:42 am
On my DS2072 01.00.02 FW I get the following for saving screen shots to USB sticks:

San Disk 1GB, "Print" 56 sec, "Save" PNG from Storage menu 59 sec
Kingston 2GB, "Print" 57 sec, "Save" 60.5 sec

(Seems kind of long for a file that's only 22KBytes)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 10, 2013, 09:57:29 am
DS2202, FW 01.00.05

Kingston DataTtraveler 2.0 FAT32 4GB

PNG: Save 20 sec, Print 16 sec
BMP: Save 11 sec, Print 8 sec
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2013, 03:35:05 pm
On my DS2072 01.00.02 FW I get the following for saving screen shots to USB sticks:

San Disk 1GB, "Print" 56 sec, "Save" PNG from Storage menu 59 sec
Kingston 2GB, "Print" 57 sec, "Save" 60.5 sec

DS2202, FW 01.00.05

PNG: Save 20 sec, Print 16 sec
BMP: Save 11 sec, Print 8 sec

Wow,  so it does appear as if Rigol either optimized their code in FW 05 - or more likely, fixed a bug - since you'd have to write REALLY BAD code to produce something that would take almost 60 seconds to convert an 800x480x24 bitmap to PNG format and save it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 10, 2013, 05:43:49 pm
On my DS2072 01.00.02 FW I get the following for saving screen shots to USB sticks:

San Disk 1GB, "Print" 56 sec, "Save" PNG from Storage menu 59 sec
Kingston 2GB, "Print" 57 sec, "Save" 60.5 sec

DS2202, FW 01.00.05

PNG: Save 20 sec, Print 16 sec
BMP: Save 11 sec, Print 8 sec

Wow,  so it does appear as if Rigol either optimized their code in FW 05 - or more likely, fixed a bug - since you'd have to write REALLY BAD code to produce something that would take almost 60 seconds to convert an 800x480x24 bitmap to PNG format and save it.
How slow is the image save speed of the DS2000-series compared to other scopes (Owon, Hantek..)? I was surprised how slow these are compared to other (like Tektronix). If I recall correctly, on those more expensive models it won't take many seconds...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2013, 06:01:41 pm
How slow is the image save speed of the DS2000-series compared to other scopes (Owon, Hantek..)? I was surprised how slow these are compared to other (like Tektronix). If I recall correctly, on those more expensive models it won't take many seconds...

Well, I don't have another DSO to compare against anymore, but two things to keep in mind:

We're talking about a bitmap image - not the voltage levels of the waveform (which is way faster) - so the speed is linked to the size and depth of the display, which is 800x480x24 bits on the DS2000 series. That's 9.2Mb or 1.1MB. I don't think Tektronix has produced a DSO with a screen resolution higher than 640x480, have they (probably even smaller than that)?

The Owon is 800x600x8; which is 3.8Mb or 480kB. Apparently, aghp (a seller of Owon DSOs) claims that the fugly display on the Owon is IN FACT 24 bit color (but strangely without any anti-aliasing of any screen elements like the Rigol has). I neither know for sure - or care - but I'll say this, if it IS 24-bit color, it's the worst use I've ever seen of 24-bit.

Secondly, the Rigol has a special SCPI command which transmits that screen bitmap to the PC in about 2.3 seconds over USB. Try to do that with the Owon or Hantek.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 10, 2013, 10:34:36 pm
New version of the Rigol UltraVision Utilities uploaded... details here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg180053/#msg180053)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on January 11, 2013, 05:43:13 am
We're talking about a bitmap image - not the voltage levels of the waveform (which is way faster) - so the speed is linked to the size and depth of the display, which is 800x480x24 bits on the DS2000 series. That's 9.2Mb or 1.1MB, The Owon is 800x600x8; which is 3.8Mb or 480kB.  

Do you have any data to this argument?

Attached image is authentic OWON -> USB -> PC Transferred bitmap image. Is it 800x600x8?

You make mistakes quite often when you talk about Owon. Selectively forget the truth?
But I'm very lazy to correct all becouse - who cares.

(just random image from some old set of trig test, and not at all best)
Now, marmad, how much data have been transferred? bmp parameters show that there is 800x600x24bit.

Raw data and imagination are two different things.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 11, 2013, 06:09:18 am
You make mistakes quite often when you talk about Owon. Selectively forget the truth?
But I'm very lazy to correct all becouse - who cares.

Fine, Kari, I made an honest mistake - I assumed because of the ugly display color scheme that Owon uses - and no anti-aliasing of any screen elements - that it must be 8-bit color. So I'm wrong - big deal. It doesn't change the fact that the image on the 800x600x24 bit display on the Owon looks like a child's toy when compared to the image on the Rigol screen - because Rigol put some thought and design into theirs.

And I don't selectively forget anything - but there is clear evidence that you do. Jesus, man, get a life already. Lurking, hidden most of the time, moving around these review threads I started, trying to make a buck. Go ahead and create some original content of your own on EEVBlog instead of sponging off of mine - I mean, damn, you didn't even have the idea of buying your first SDS7102 on your own - you got that from my review.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on January 11, 2013, 08:52:17 am
Go ahead and create some original content of your own on EEVBlog instead of sponging off of mine - I mean, damn, you didn't even have the idea of buying your first SDS7102 on your own - you got that from my review.

Can not correct your mistakes or lies? Then you come angry. Grow up.

I have started with digital oscilloscopes somewhere around 1980 and after then looked world around also long time ago. Some past years also name Owon and many others.

I come here inside your thread just as I see some lie and now even more about me.
I keep silence normally but some times I see clear mistakes or lies I will correct it.
And after your answer now need correct more.

Just ask Why? Now you continue lies and I want correct also this. "I mean, damn, you didn't even have the idea of buying your first SDS7102 on your own - you got that from my review." <- you really have some problem?  If you tell that you believe or maybe... but you tell it like some kind of truth and in this point it come just to category named lie. So, if you do not know, perhaps it is better to keep it only in own mind or tell that you do not know but still you want say.

Years I have investigated new digital scopes and other test and measurement equipments. For my job, for my hobbies and also for sell some new equipments and not only second hand refurbished equipments what I have much more long time.
But this is from Finland and this you did not know (and it is just one example only):

http://mittalaitteita.lefora.com/ (http://mittalaitteita.lefora.com/)
Quote
"
22 February 2010 08:33 PM

Pitäisikö valmistautua siihen ajatukseen että laadukkaat huippumerkit tulevatkin joskus Kiinasta?

Tekway, Rigol, Owon (1) , Atten, Uni-T (lempinimi Uni-Toy).

.
.
.





(Image)
20 August 2011 02:50 PM


Ai mikä tämä on?

No se on Owonin  uusi SDS malli.  Owon on itse kehittynyt muutamassa vuodessa kapisesta moskan tuottajasta varteenotettavaksi ja nyt viimeisimpänä iskivät markkinoille aikamoisella uutuudella. (2)

(ei siis todellakaan ole se wanha parjattu Owonin DSTN sekoilu...jossain muutenkin kapisessa mallissa)"
Quote
(3)
"

3)  Some day around 2007-2008 I look littlebit more (in real life, not only www) about Owon... from this time I get idea that it is just crap bullshit and I have told it many times in Finland. 

1) Around 2009-2010 I have noted that Owon have developed and I take it to some example names what is good to follow as I tal.. What if some day we can see higher class dgital oscilloscopes may be also Chinese...

2) in some last years Owon have developed from crap to notable manufacturer.
(why I say this. I say becouse whole time I have followed it after time to time.)

But there is (random?) truth... I make finally decision to buy lot of SDS7102's (not for me but for sale and after I have here locally also fast keeped it in my hand and looked  it irl)  just around same time as you start this "famous"  Owon "Rewiev" with lot of opinions but nearly total lack of any kind of real lab tests.

If there do not come more lies I can also keep silence.
Guns are yours.

Do you overall mainly think that things what occurs around  same time have causality?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: andersm on January 11, 2013, 10:27:29 am
Attached image is authentic OWON -> USB -> PC Transferred bitmap image. Is it 800x600x8?
Quick image analysis suggests the Owon is using 9-bit RGB and the Rigol 16-bit RGB. Both seem to be using less than 256 colours on screen, so it's possible they're using indexed colour modes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: aghp on January 11, 2013, 12:08:31 pm
Attached image is authentic OWON -> USB -> PC Transferred bitmap image. Is it 800x600x8?
Quick image analysis suggests the Owon is using 9-bit RGB and the Rigol 16-bit RGB. Both seem to be using less than 256 colours on screen, so it's possible they're using indexed colour modes.

Perhaps. But if think how much data is transferred, with Owon it is 1,4Mbyte and it takes time becouse also Owon USB transfer to computer or USB memory is not very fast. Is it problem or not it dpends user needs. 
Note, I do not think any kind of competite between Owon and Rigol.  I do not want pick-up Owon to this thread. Only correct wrong claim.

In my mind  Rigol DS2xxx  is one good candidate to "highly recommended" class in 1-2kEuro group.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: digsys on January 11, 2013, 12:37:25 pm
BOTH these DSOs are about the best selection for their respective NICHE markets !!
For the PRICE, the OWON pretty much cleans up every competitor in that group, with features even equalling some high end.
For the PRICE, the Rigol does well against much "higher" name brands, and has excellent tech capabilities.
BOTH have their issues though, BOTH could be just a bit better. That's the way it is and in ALL tech equipment.
You should see the forum wars in the Digital camera world, which I have been very active in from day 1. This is nothing !!
And now, possibly, Instek are joining the party with their new line-up. We'll have a new player to beat up :-)
Lets Play nice in the sandpit ...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 11, 2013, 03:16:08 pm
Can not correct your mistakes or lies? Then you come angry. Grow up.

Sure, this from a guy who comes on this thread to correct a mistake by posting:

"You make mistakes quite often when you talk about Owon. Selectively forget the truth?
But I'm very lazy to correct all becouse - who cares."

Very adult behavior.

Do you overall mainly think that things what occurs around  same time have causality?

Well, no, I think in this particular circumstance they have causality because of the private messages you sent me after my review - but I guess that involves selective memory again.

20 August 2011 02:50 PM

I'm not sure why you believe posting something written AFTER my reviews were published (and after you PMed me for more information) proves your point? In case your memory (selective?) needs jogging, you PMed me 6 times between Aug 14th and Aug 19th asking for information about the scope - my review was first published on Aug.8th.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 12, 2013, 01:37:26 am
You know your life is good if you have time to argue about oscilloscopes:)

I'm still wondering if the lost data between each screen record using the Record/Playback feature is normal to this scope, all scopes, or a bug? 
I have a question about the Record/Play back functions.  I tried using the serial decode function and found about the maximum I could fit on 1 screen is as shown in the attached picture.

Now I can zoom much further out in the horizontal scale and capture a huge chuck of data then zoom back in to read/decode it. 
I figured this would be a great use for the record and playback,  but I discovered large gaps of lost data between each recorded frame/(screen).  I'm assuming this is normal?

So i'm back to the zoom way out, grab a screen with max data points, then zoom back in to read/decode.   
Instead of scrolling with the tiny horizontal knob, WHY can't this nice big jog wheel be used to scroll quickly forward and back instead of using the little horizontal knob.  Wouldn't this be a huge improvement? Perhaps this could included in a future update.   I feel like hooking up my cordless drill to the Horizontal knob sometimes:)   
I don't have much experience in capturing/decoding data, so please let me know your thoughts and preffered methods of doing this.   
What are some of the other uses for the record/playback feature?



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 01:53:57 am
I'm still wondering if the lost data between each screen record using the Record/Playback feature is normal to this scope, all scopes, or a bug? 
Martin, I'm not quite sure why you're re-posting this old message when I answered it here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg178869/#msg178869) - unless you missed my previous response.

From your post, it doesn't sound as if you understand how the Record feature works - it captures a frame when triggered (up to the maximum wfrm/s of that timebase setting). Any data that is 'lost' is between triggers - exactly like when you run the DSO in 'Normal' trigger mode. If you specify a longer delay time between triggers, more data will be 'lost'.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 12, 2013, 03:43:15 am
Sorry,  I did miss your previous reply somehow, yet I recall reading the post before and after, but I also sometimes plug red into black and black into red by mistake.  Then again my job sometimes requires it to be done intentionally!
I do not understand exactly how the record function works, but will read your post and play around some more.  Thanks for the reply.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 04:54:09 am
Sorry,  I did miss your previous reply somehow, yet I recall reading the post before and after, but I also sometimes plug red into black and black into red by mistake.  Then again my job sometimes requires it to be done intentionally!
No problem - the mad unspooling of threads here sometimes means you miss responses ;)  And I'm sorry if I was somewhat short-tempered - it's been a tiring couple of days.

Looking back over your original post, I wonder if the Record function is really suited for your task. Part of the problem is the fact that Rigol calls it 'recording' (with what that implies from our other experiences with recording things) - while many other DSO makers call it 'segmented memory'.

This little chart I clipped from the GW-Instek manual gives a fairly clear picture as to what is happening - just insert the word 'frame' where it says 'segment':

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=36584;image)

The idea of segmented memory (Rigol's 'record') is not that you capture more continuous data - in fact, it's the opposite: that you save memory space by NOT capturing continuously - but only capturing triggered events when they happen - then waiting for the next event.

So for long continuous streams of data, it's not going to work well - you're better off using the entire 56MPts of memory in a single shot.

I hope that makes it a bit more clear  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on January 12, 2013, 05:09:37 am
...So for long continuous streams of data, it's not going to work well - you're better off using the entire 56MPts of memory in a single shot.

Thanks for that info.  It is much clearer now. I was missing the 'Delayed' ON in the horizontal menu which allows use of the 'Navigation Knob'.  This is great as my last scope force me to turn the little horizontal position knob 100s of turns to do the same thing. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 05:21:59 am
I was missing the 'Delayed' ON in the horizontal menu which allows use of the 'Navigation Knob'.  This is great as my last scope force me to turn the little horizontal position knob 100s of turns to do the same thing.

Yes, the big Navigation Knob is a joy to use on the Rigol. The only little interface niggle is when you are in both Delayed Sweep mode AND Playback Frames mode - the big Navigation Knob is then only for forwarding or reversing through the frames - and you're back to using only the small Horizontal Position knob for moving the window. I wish it was the other way around - even though I understand why they did it that way: because the case markings around the Nav.Knob are for 'Playback'.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2013, 06:25:09 pm
Well, does the DS2072 have anything similar to Tek Wave Inspector? It is nice to have 14Mpts acquisition memory length, but is there any possibility to search for events or place marks? It seems to me, that not. I have read the DS2072 user manual. Anyway, Owon SDS7102 also has no tools to manage the nice 2×10Mpts memory.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2013, 06:38:41 pm
Anyway, GW Instek GDS-2000A has also something like Wave Inspector. It is possible to make automated search or place marks manually. But there is no special dual knob.  :-[
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 07:32:21 pm
Well, does the DS2072 have anything similar to Tek Wave Inspector? It is nice to have 14Mpts acquisition memory length, but is there any possibility to search for events or place marks? It seems to me, that not. I have read the DS2072 user manual. Anyway, Owon SDS7102 also has no tools to manage the nice 2×10Mpts memory.
As far as I recall the Owon is just 10MPts total Corrected: Owon is 2x10MPts.

No, no markers or searching for events on the Rigol itself - but the software I've produced (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/) currently allows you to drop markers and move between them (if your Rigol is connected to a computer) - and, when the memory read bug is fixed (or a workaround is found), it will also allow you to load/save samples and events then search through deep memory for them.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on January 12, 2013, 08:13:47 pm
Well, it is not much important, but it seems that Owon has really 2×10MB memory. Check these specifications: http://www.owon.com.hk/SDS-en.asp (http://www.owon.com.hk/SDS-en.asp)
Quote
10M record length for each channel;
Anyway, you mentioned it here, that Owon has 10MB per channel. But if it had only 5MB per channel, it would also be enough.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 12, 2013, 08:28:34 pm
Well, it is not much important, but it seems that Owon has really 2×10MB memory.

Sorry I forgot the details. Remember, I had the Owon for 4-5 weeks about 1.5 years ago - and I've had/tried 3 other DSOs since. Honestly, all I do remember clearly about that deep memory on the Owon was what a pain in the ass it was to look through (or easy to lose your place in) without a dual timebase zoom window.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 07:26:51 pm
Apparently, drieg has being using the bugs/problems list (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659) (compiled from the fine bug reporting done by the users in this thread ;) ) to communicate to Rigol about  the problems we've found.

It appears they've confirmed most of the bugs/problems now (or stated they aren't bugs) - although they're still trying to verify one or two of them, but what I found interesting - and I thought others might as well - is the response to #12 (Rigol response in italics):

12) A bug confined to the menu selection of Channel 1 = ON and Trigger = External keeps the sample rate stuck at 1G SA/s (instead of raising to 2G Sa/s ? as it should be). The bug does not affect the sample rate when selecting CH1/EXT trigger using SCPI commands. Also, if the DSO is booted up with CH1/EXT trigger selected, the correct sample rate of 2G Sa/s is enabled.

I asked R&D about this situation, it is not a bug because DS4 and DS6 use analog trigger so if we turn off CH1,CH3 ,other channels can go to the Max. sample rate, but DS2000 use digital trigger, the advance of digital trigger is the signal displayed on screen stably and no offset compared with analog trigger .In digital trigger ,even we turn off CH1 ,but actually it still work in the background ,so the MaX. sample rate for CH2 and Ext IS 1G Sa/s .

Interesting, yes? Although it doesn't explain why then the sample rate reported at the top of the screen is still incorrect sometimes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 08:56:33 pm
Hi all.. I've have had a quick scan through this thread but didn't see anything regarding the issue I've got here..  I just got my DS2072 last week but only today noticed that when I set the screen saver to any given time, It doesn't activate at all. Its supposed to show the Rigol screen is it not?

I've updated the FW from 1.00.01 to 1.00.00.05 (which I can only tell from plugging a USB with the latest version on it, in) however still no go as regards the screen saver issue.

Anyone else with the same thing?

Thank you
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 13, 2013, 09:20:06 pm
when I set the screen saver to any given time, It doesn't activate at all. Thank you
DS2072 FW1.00.02
Yep, I don't get a screen saver time-out to Rigol Screen,, tried 1min, 2 min
 But then again with Trial Options, I shut it Off when not in use
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 09:24:55 pm
Yep, I don't get a screen saver time-out to Rigol Screen,, tried 1min, 2 min
 But then again with Trial Options, I shut it Off when not in use

Ah ok, thanks. That's good to know.

I guess it seems that Rigol have got quite a few things to fix in the next FW update then :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 09:58:49 pm
I just got my DS2072 last week but only today noticed that when I set the screen saver to any given time, It doesn't activate at all. Its supposed to show the Rigol screen is it not?

The screen saver works fine for me - I've used it many times (FW 01.00.05).

Quote
I've updated the FW from 1.00.01 to 1.00.00.05 (which I can only tell from plugging a USB with the latest version on it, in) however still no go as regards the screen saver issue.

I'm not quite sure what you mean by this? Do you mean writing the scope variables to a file? You can get detailed version info by following these instructions:
Go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger
Then press the [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] buttons one after another quickly.
Then check additional info under System -> System Info.
To escape from this mode, press again [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] while inside Trigger menu
- or reboot the scope.

Perhaps it's a bug in 01.00.02 - and you haven't properly upgraded yet? BTW, as far as I know, there haven't been any scopes delivered with 01.00.01 - so I think you started with (or still have) 01.00.02.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:13:48 pm
Whether or not the screen saver is activated might also be affected by the mode or state that the DSO is currently running in (although, ideally, it shouldn't be). I've never noticed it NOT working for me, but sometimes I've been using it (during long stretches of programming for the scope) and other times not.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 10:21:25 pm
I'm not quite sure what you mean by this? Do you mean writing the scope variables to a file? You can get detailed version info by following these instructions:
Go to the Trigger menu and set Edge trigger
Then press the [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] buttons one after another quickly.
Then check additional info under System -> System Info.
To escape from this mode, press again [Menu7][Menu6][Menu7][Utility] while inside Trigger menu
- or reboot the scope.

Perhaps it's a bug in 01.00.02 - and you haven't properly upgraded yet? BTW, as far as I know, there haven't been any scopes delivered with 01.00.01 - so I think you started (or still have) 01.00.02.

My appologies.. The FW version I have is 00.00.01 hardware version 1.0.

Your right marmad.. I must not have completed the upgrad to the FW.. However when I insert the USB stick with FW v01.00.05 on it, it says 'A same firmware detected, Upgrade'?

If I choose 'YES' it runs through it's routine but doesn't upgrade. I have also tried the start-up routine were you have to hit the 'HELP' button just after pressing the 'ON' button. That also runs through the correct routine, but doesn't actually update the FW.

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/orbiter/IMAG0522_zps61d7b8b9.jpg)

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/orbiter/IMAG0518_zpseef2be75.jpg)

Any advise please?

Thank you
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:28:47 pm
Your right marmad.. I must not have completed the upgrad to the FW.. However when I insert the USB stick with FW v01.00.05 on it, it says 'A same firmware detected, Upgrade'?

@orbiter: I'm not sure you're actually entering the 'special' mode to get to the detailed system info. After going through the steps in the previous post, are you seeing a screen like this?

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 10:30:53 pm
Your right marmad.. I must not have completed the upgrad to the FW.. However when I insert the USB stick with FW v01.00.05 on it, it says 'A same firmware detected, Upgrade'?

@orbiter: I'm not sure you're actually entering the 'special' mode to get to the detailed system info. After going through the steps in the previous post, are you seeing a screen like this?

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0
FPGA version:
SPU 03.01.02
WPU 00.06.00
CCU 12.29.00
MCU 00.05

Nope.. I'll try again..

Thank you
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:33:44 pm
  Is the External Trigger also digital , with separate ADIC, back to the teardown???
  How can we test ?
 

@Teneyes: In the message from Rigol which I posted, Rigol says that the External Trigger is digital - so it must be sampled - and that's why the sample rate is cut in half when using it. I'm not quite sure what you're trying to test. Why the top of the screen sometimes shows 2 GSa/S and sometimes 1 GSa/s? I think it's a bug in the display logic.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 10:35:15 pm
I have no additional info come up marmad, only the same info that is shown in my second picture.

EDIT:... Do I need to upgrade to 00.00.02 first or something?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:42:59 pm
I have no additional info come up marmad, only the same info that is shown in my second picture.

EDIT:... Do I need to upgrade to 00.00.02 first or something?

No, you just need to press buttons faster :)  After selecting Trigger Menu, then Edge trigger, you must press the following 4 buttons VERY QUICKLY: right-side menu button #7, then #6, then #7, then Utilty button --- then if you press System -> System Info and DON'T see detailed info == start again, and press those 4 buttons even faster.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 10:50:41 pm
Obviously, one of the reasons for being on the Trigger menu when using this 'special' key sequence is because there are no menu items assigned to the 6th and 7th menu buttons in this particular menu - so you aren't actually choosing anything - and causing the scope to start running some routine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 11:03:02 pm
Well here is display of 138Mhz on Chan 1 , with External Trigger and looks like 10 Dots in 5ns for 1 sample every 0.5 ns, and 2GSa/s , 

@Teneyes: I'm travelling - so I'm not near my scope for testing - but could you please try this three more times with the following conditions:

Change to Channel2 and External Trigger - then run the same test.
Then just turn off DSO and reboot - then run the test again.
The change again to Channel1 and External Trigger - and run it one last time.
See if you get the same results every time - or if one time it drops to 5 points per division.

Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 11:07:54 pm
OK... I'm an idiot... I looked in the manual for reference to the #7, #6, #7 buttons and those are indicated as AUTO & CLEAR. Those are the ones I was pressing :o

Anyway.. Thanks to you guys, I now have the screen below :) and what looks like FW v00.05..

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/orbiter/IMAG0523_zpsf8c8243c.jpg)

However now I still have the initial problem.. No screensaver :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 11:16:21 pm
However now I still have the initial problem.. No screensaver :(

Which is odd - since as I mentioned, it seems to work fine for me. The problem is I'm travelling and not near my scope to check my setup. Can someone else reading this with 01.00.05 run a quick test of the screen-saver on their Rigol?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 13, 2013, 11:18:36 pm
Can someone else reading this with 01.00.05 run a quick test of the screen-saver on their Rigol?

I can do it, but not before tomorrow.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 13, 2013, 11:20:41 pm
No worries, there's no rush. Thanks for the assistance guys.

Cheers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 13, 2013, 11:26:09 pm
I can do it, but not before tomorrow.

Thanks, EV. BTW, I'm just about to upload a bug-fix for RUU (version 1.51) for you. I found one line of code with a TypeConversion mistake. When you get a chance, please download the new version, switch your Windows settings back to ',' for decimal point and try to enter 'Zoom Markers'. I think it should work fine for you now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 12:07:06 am
Just uploaded a minor bug fix for the Rigol UltraVision Utilities (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575). This version now allows dropping markers while using the Delayed Sweep (Zoom Window) on the Rigol - and jumping between them. More features to come when I'm back at my studio (and my DSO) in 2 weeks.

I still haven't heard from any DS4000 (or, god forbid, DS6000) owners if the software works for them. I'd love to know.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 02:27:01 am
For the need of  an External trigger and 2GSa/s ,
It is best to use Chan 2 and External, this is a Work around to avoid having to power-off and on for uses of Chan 1 and external Trigger .

But how do you know for sure it's 2GSa/s? Did you check the number of samples?

According to the Rigol guy: "In digital trigger ,even we turn off CH1 ,but actually it still work in the background ,so the MaX. sample rate for CH2 and Ext IS 1G Sa/s ."

And what kind of signal are you using for the External Trigger?

Also according to the Rigol guy, one of the advantages of the digital trigger is no offset.

Why does it seem you have no offset in the first image - and 4ns in the second?
Nevermind this last one - I see that the first is labelled CH2 triggered.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 03:25:30 am
Hmm... I feel our communication is not working very well.

Yes no offset if using Chan 1 and/or Chan 2 as trigger, (1GSa)

The offset I (and the Rigol guy) was talking about is on the External (Digital) Trigger - nothing to do with channel triggering. He claims no offset on External Trigger.

Go back to old msg for Dots at display of 2GSa/s and set to External

Perhaps I'm being dense, but I don't see any image of Channel 2 & Ext. Trigger as dots. He says Channel 2 & External Trigger = 1 GSa/s. I'm trying to discover if what he says is correct or false.

Quote
Does someone have 2 output function gen with phase offset to test
mmm I'm thinking of DG3062

Wouldn't just a FG with Sync output to External Trigger work to measure offset?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 06:34:47 am
DS2202 FW1.00.05

Screen saver works!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 06:45:36 am


 BTW, I'm just about to upload a bug-fix for RUU (version 1.51) for you. I found one line of code with a TypeConversion mistake. When you get a chance, please download the new version, switch your Windows settings back to ',' for decimal point and try to enter 'Zoom Markers'. I think it should work fine for you now.

Yes, it works now.
Thanks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 07:30:22 am
OK to more complete here are #1  Chan1 with EXT , dots, and Chan 2 with Ext and Dots

Thanks for that, Teneyes! Strange, the Rigol guy doesn't seem to be correct with what he said - so I think he misunderstood our big report. I will have send drieg another message to try to clarify this bug for Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 07:32:05 am
Yes, it works now.
Thanks!

Good to hear it, EV. Thanks for checking.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 09:37:23 am
No worries, there's no rush. Thanks for the assistance guys.

Screen saver works! FW 1.00.05 DS2202

Edit: New animated gif
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 04:01:54 pm
Screen saver works! FW 1.00.05 DS2202

@EV: Thanks for checking. Is it possible we could get one other owner with a DS2072 and FW 01.00.05 to check their screen saver? Sparky? I can't imagine that it has anything to do with model number, but it might be good to be sure.

However now I still have the initial problem.. No screensaver :(

@Orbiter: Since two others with the same firmware as you have it working, time to try various settings on the scope to see which one might affect it. I'd start with a 'reset' to default settings (I can't remember in which menu that is located on the DSO - but I know it's there) - then try the screen saver again first before altering anything. Then - with screen saver set to time out in 1 minute, I'd try changing some of the more obvious settings/options and give it a minute to timeout.

BTW, do you have any trial or permanent options running? Both EV and I have at least one permanent option - which, theoretically, might make a difference. That's another reason it would be good to hear from another DS2072/FW 01.00.05 user.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 14, 2013, 04:32:05 pm
Is it possible we could get one other owner with a DS2072 and FW 01.00.05 to check their screen saver? Sparky?

DS2072 with FW 01.00.05:
Screen saver works for me too!  (Screen saver 'type' is set to "Default" (grayed out)).

Sorry for my lack of input recently --- a few too many things on my desk right now...don't know how you do it marmad, even on travel!

I can try testing the 2G Sa/s on both Ch 1 and Ch 2 with ext. trigger, as there are still questions on that issue...  I have a DG4062 near by if we need two signals with phase offset.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 05:19:31 pm
I can try testing the 2G Sa/s on both Ch 1 and Ch 2 with ext. trigger, as there are still questions on that issue...  I have a DG4062 near by if we need two signals with phase offset.

Great! There is clearly a misunderstanding about our bug report vs. what Rigol thinks the problem is/isn't.

If you could just check (using dots) what the real sample rate is when the DSO displays 1 GSa/s after choosing CH1 & Ext. Trigger - then reboot and check it again after it displays 2 GSa/s - we would know for sure if it was an actual sample rate setting bug - or a display of sample rate bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 14, 2013, 05:59:08 pm
I can try testing the 2G Sa/s on both Ch 1 and Ch 2 with ext. trigger, as there are still questions on that issue...  I have a DG4062 near by if we need two signals with phase offset.

Great! There is clearly a misunderstanding about our bug report vs. what Rigol thinks the problem is/isn't.

If you could just check (using dots) what the real sample rate is when the DSO displays 1 GSa/s after choosing CH1 & Ext. Trigger - then reboot and check it again after it displays 2 GSa/s - we would know for sure if it was an actual sample rate setting bug - or a display of sample rate bug.

Test done!  Seems the 2G Sa/s is the real deal when using Ext trigger (after reboot)!  So, display on the scope is correct, and it is indeed bug in the firmware which requires reboot of the scope to get this 2G S/s.

I input a 20MHz sine wave to Ch 1, and first test with internal trigger, then external trigger (before and after reboot).  Please see pics attached!  (Sorry, I don't see how to put pics inline...)

Let's forward this clarified bug report to Rigol via our friend drieg!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 06:08:59 pm
Test done!  Seems the 2G Sa/s is the real deal when using Ext trigger (after reboot)!  So, display on the scope is correct, and it is indeed bug in the firmware which requires reboot of the scope to get this 2G S/s.

Thanks, Sparky. I've d/led your .pngs and will forward them on with explanation to drieg to pass on to Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 06:31:18 pm
All of our other bugs have been confirmed (or denied that they were bugs - in the case of the clear waveform first 'design choice') by Rigol - except the following:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 07:03:13 pm
Let's forward this clarified bug report to Rigol via our friend drieg!

Here are the same pictures from my scope DS2202, which Sparky sent :
Title: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: sanka on January 14, 2013, 08:14:57 pm
Thanks to the excellent review by marmad, and everyone's contribution to this thread, I have ordered a DS2072 which arrives in two days. I am looking forward to it.

From the discussions here, it appears that I should upgrade to firmware 1.00.05 when the unit arrives (assuming it is not already at that level). Can someone please let me know how I would go about getting the firmware?

I am in California. I ordered the scope from tequipment.net. Looking at the UPS tracking information, it looks like this unit is being drop shipped from Rigol NA in Ohio.

Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 14, 2013, 08:20:29 pm
Here are the same pictures from my scope DS2202, which Sparky sent :

Excellent!  So now we have confirmed this bug for both DS2072 and DS2202!  I guess single firmware fix will resolve the problem for all DS2000 series.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chalky on January 14, 2013, 08:21:31 pm
Yes, thanks also from me to Marmad and others.  It is your efforts, advice, opinions, discussions, disagreements etc. that help others like me with what is for some of us a significant purchasing decision.  Much appreciated, thank you.  Have bought my DS2072 from Emona, found them very friendly and helpful so far.  Other scope vendors haven't bothered replying to my sales enquiries.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: Sparky on January 14, 2013, 08:42:24 pm
From the discussions here, it appears that I should upgrade to firmware 1.00.05 when the unit arrives (assuming it is not already at that level). Can someone please let me know how I would go about getting the firmware?

Welcome!

I am in SoCal, and ordered from tequipment.net also.  I did not get the firmware update from Rigol NA or Tequipment.net (even though I asked them for it).  Instead, a forum member provided it to me, and it has since been kindly uploaded by another member.  See this post in marmad's software tips and tricks thread:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175707/#msg175707 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175707/#msg175707)

Be sure to read the warnings and follow instructions upgrading the firmware --- only do upgrade during BOOT!  Search this thread and the above thread for details on the procedure.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 14, 2013, 08:44:11 pm
Excellent!  So now we have confirmed this bug for both DS2072 and DS2202!  I guess single firmware fix will resolve the problem for all DS2000 series.

@ Sparky and Narmad

Here is more information about this bug:

If I stop the scope when changing from ch1 trigger to external trigger 2 GSa/s does not change to 1 GSa/s. When pressing run again it keeps still at 2 GSa/s. So there is no need to restart the scope.

If scope is not stopped 2 GSa/s changes to 1 GSa/s, when you move trigger to ch2 and keeps there also at external trigger. So it looks that going through ch2 trigger does this bug, if scope is not stopped.

I hope you understand what I am telling.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 09:56:44 pm
Be sure to read the warnings and follow instructions upgrading the firmware --- only do upgrade during BOOT!  Search this thread and the above thread for details on the procedure.

I've (finally) updated the first post in this thread to include both the instructions for getting detailed version info, as well as how to safely upgrade from 02 to 05. So we can now just point people to there.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 10:00:12 pm
It is good that there is no trigger level line on the trace as the trigger level is unrelated to the displayed  signal,  but it this test by connectting to the same point , we know they are the same and can realize the offset.

You can also look at the displayed voltage level of External Trigger at the top right corner of the screen  ;)
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 10:12:05 pm
From the discussions here, it appears that I should upgrade to firmware 1.00.05 when the unit arrives (assuming it is not already at that level).
@sanka (and other prospective new owners): First off - welcome to the party ;D Us early adopters gotta stick together!

Secondly: I had been constantly recommending people to upgrade to FW 05 asap - because of the erroneous memory write problems which MIGHT occur while using FW 02. But since the discovery of the Memory Read bug in FW 05 (Software can't read sample memory from scope: #9 in our compiled list of bugs in the first post of this thread) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659), I would just urge you to think a moment before upgrading if you use (or want to use fairly soon) MATLAB, LabVIEW, or any other third party software which needs to read the sample memory for processing.

If that's not an issue for you, then upgrading is probably the best bet. If you do decide to stay with FW 02. I would refrain from using the internal memory to save setups, reference waveforms, files, etc - and stick to using an external USB stick (or RUU  :) ).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 14, 2013, 10:42:05 pm
BTW, if someone feels up to doing a little research (which is needed for RUU and other prospective processing software), maybe they can help with the following:

I had started to write a graphics routine for displaying the Rigol's waveforms real-time (not, of course, at 50k per second  ;) but something reasonably speedy) before I had to leave on my current travels, but I still hadn't cracked the purpose behind the 1400 bytes Rigol uses per channel for display memory.

The actual screen display for the waveforms is 700x400 pixels, so I thought perhaps each 2 bytes is a 16-bit word for either 12-bit ADC values (high-res mode) - or for unscaled 400 vertical points - or perhaps for intensity grading - but if any of those are the case, then I don't understand why the DSO saves them as 1400 separate voltages when it creates a CSV file.

Anyway, I sent an email to drieg earlier today (since I know he's working on decoding the new WFM format Rigol uses for the UltraVision DSOs) but he didn't know either.

It wouldn't be so hard to figure out with a little testing: you can save a waveform file, modify a byte or two with a bin/hex editor, and then reload them into the scope and see what they produce on the display - I just didn't find the time before I left - but I need to figure it out to finish RUU's display of waveforms. Anyone interested in poking around? It will be 2 more weeks until I'm back near my Rigol  :(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 08:01:54 am
DS2072 FW 1.00.02 
Can someone  please verify .

DS2202 FW 1.00.05

If the scope is triggering to the rising edge the horizontal offset is very small. When triggering to the falling edge there is horizontal offset which is dependent on the frequency, 4 ns at 10 MHz and 2 ns at 20 MHz. Look at pictures.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 15, 2013, 08:17:07 am
Hi EV, I only have DS2072 (until someone can tell me how to unlock it  >:D) without 2ns timebase, but I think the results are useful anyway. I'm not seeing the same effect on DS2072 FW 1.00.02. See the pics. These captures are with AA on, normal acq mode, I've tried other settings and it doesn't seem to make a difference.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 08:22:35 am
Hi EV, I only have DS2072 (until someone can tell me how to unlock it  >:D) without 2ns timebase, but I think the results are useful anyway. I'm not seeing the same effect on DS2072 FW 1.00.02. See the pics. These captures are with AA on, normal acq mode, I've tried other settings and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Are you using external triggering? It can not be seen from the pictures. Look at Teneyes post earlier. It is on 2 pictures, you have triggered to ch1 not external!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on January 15, 2013, 08:23:42 am
I've been playing with the waveform file and getting pretty much nowhere.  I saved a waveform that says it has 1400 pts (50ns/div, 2GSa/s).  The file is 22,376 bytes long and has a bunch of stuff that makes no sense to me.  But if I read the data in as 8-bit bytes I find the trace stuck on the very end as two interlaced 728 point traces (yes it's 728, not 700).  By interlaced I mean one trace followed by 4 bytes then a second trace.  When I stick the two traces together (i.e. deinterlace them) it almost exactly matches the screen capture of the waveform.  I have no clue what this means, but the data I was able to find was straight 8-bit bytes.  (That doesn't mean that other versions of the data aren't hiding elsewhere in the long file.) 

Also, if you save data taken in Hires mode to CSV, the results in the CSV file are quantized at 8-bit (as I mentioned in my original post).  (The Hires mode does give enhanced resolution on the scope screen readout.)

One bug I found (or re-found actually) on my scope (FW 00.00.01.00.02): if I try to save waveforms to a USB stick without first saving a screen capture using the print button, my scope hangs and must be powered down.  If I save a screen capture first, after each powerup, then saving waveforms and CSV work fine.  Tested two USB sticks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2013, 08:26:45 am
Hi EV, I only have DS2072 (until someone can tell me how to unlock it  >:D) without 2ns timebase, but I think the results are useful anyway. I'm not seeing the same effect on DS2072 FW 1.00.02. See the pics. These captures are with AA on, normal acq mode, I've tried other settings and it doesn't seem to make a difference.

Your tests are with CH1 as the (internal) trigger, so this is not a direct comparison.  I think everyone is getting normal results like you show for internal trigger.  The test proposed by Teneyes is to use external trigger, which is how EV has done the test.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 15, 2013, 08:44:16 am
Your tests are with CH1 as the (internal) trigger, so this is not a direct comparison.  I think everyone is getting normal results like you show for internal trigger.  The test proposed by Teneyes is to use external trigger, which is how EV has done the test.
Ugh, of course you're right. Serves me right for not re-reading the thread I was trying to follow at work...

I have re-done the test can confirm I'm seeing a relatively similar effect, but my delays seem longer at 20MHz. The test is not valid though, as I don't have two matched length BNC cables to do the ext. trig. test and it is few ns per foot.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 09:31:36 am
I have re-done the test can confirm I'm seeing a relatively similar effect, but my delays seem longer at 20MHz. The test is not valid though, as I don't have two matched length BNC cables to do the ext. trig. test and it is few ns per foot.

I calibrated the scope and there is a little change to the results. With 10 MHz signal the horizontal offset to left is about 1 ns with rising edge and 5 ns with falling edge on both channels.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 15, 2013, 09:55:49 am
I've been playing with the waveform file and getting pretty much nowhere.

TP go to the software thread to check out my testing

One bug I found (or re-found actually) on my scope (FW 00.00.01.00.02): if I try to save waveforms to a USB stick without first saving a screen capture using the print button, my scope
hangs and must be powered down.  If I save a screen capture first, after each powerup, then saving waveforms and CSV work fine.  Tested two USB sticks.

 ds2072 fw1.00.02
I have found that starting the DSO with a stick in helps
I can remove and replace many times.
If no USB stick at start , I get hangs when I remove the stick
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 01:44:36 pm
Do you think normal triggering would change anything?
Do you think vector interpolation is doing anything ( use DOts maybe)
any at higher 100Mhz

To two first answer is no. With 10 MHz 5 ns, 20 ns 2.5 ns.....100 MHz 0.5 ns. It depend on the frequency as I told earlier.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 15, 2013, 02:21:14 pm
DS2072 FW 1.00.02

Here is a nice rise time with a fast clean Pulse ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 15, 2013, 03:41:30 pm
DS2072 FW 1.00.02

Here is a nice rise time with a fast clean Pulse ;D ;D ;D
Put the rise time measurement on from left of the window, so we can see what it is.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2013, 04:04:51 pm
I've been playing with the waveform file and getting pretty much nowhere.  I saved a waveform that says it has 1400 pts (50ns/div, 2GSa/s).  The file is 22,376 bytes long and has a bunch of stuff that makes no sense to me.  But if I read the data in as 8-bit bytes I find the trace stuck on the very end as two interlaced 728 point traces (yes it's 728, not 700).  By interlaced I mean one trace followed by 4 bytes then a second trace.  When I stick the two traces together (i.e. deinterlace them) it almost exactly matches the screen capture of the waveform.  I have no clue what this means, but the data I was able to find was straight 8-bit bytes.  (That doesn't mean that other versions of the data aren't hiding elsewhere in the long file.) 

@TP: Thanks for your input. Drieg is decoding the WFM output and he told me that they interleave the data sometimes (I think when single channel saved?). But I'm actually most interested in the display data (not sample memory data saved in WFM files) and I'm not sure the formats are identical. As mentioned before, when you ask the scope for the display memory, It ALWAYS gives you 1400 points per channel - even if the "real" sampled number of points for the screen size is 140 or 56. So what exactly do those 1400 points correspond to? I suspect that a TRC file is perhaps closer to the display memory than the sample memory - but being away from my Rigol means I can't look into it. If someone wants to send me a WFM and TRC file made from the identical single cycle square wave which fills the screen - and another two made from the identical zero voltage input, I could do some comparison here.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2013, 04:27:49 pm
DS2072 FW 1.00.02
Here is a nice rise time with a fast clean Pulse ;D ;D ;D

Wow!  :)  The rise-time is about 1ns!  How did you generate this pulse? Rise times on my signal generator are about 10-12ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 15, 2013, 04:30:06 pm
Wow!  :)  The rise-time is about 1ns!  How did you generate this pulse? Rise times on my signal generator are about 10-12ns.

I'm guessing he modified the saved file and re-loaded it  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2013, 04:59:19 pm
Wow!  :)  The rise-time is about 1ns!  How did you generate this pulse? Rise times on my signal generator are about 10-12ns.
I'm guessing he modified the saved file and re-loaded it  :)

Owww! ;D  Soon will not know to trust screenshots!! haha
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 15, 2013, 05:11:03 pm
It's A JOKE

 The lines are way tooo Perfect

 Here is the best rise time I think given that the dots are interpolated  by the DSO with Sin(X)maybe 1 dot at middle is better and rounding above 90% .
Also see the dots to make the vector display

I Learnt a lot and it was fun, . just a geek at heart
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 15, 2013, 06:07:02 pm
It's A JOKE

 The lines are way tooo Perfect

 Here is the best rise time I think given that the dots are interpolated  by the DSO with Sin(X)maybe 1 dot at middle is better and rounding above 90% .
Also see the dots to make the vector display

I Learnt a lot and it was fun, . just a geek at heart

Hahaha :)  Good job!  Yes, I bet you had fun with it!

It's interesting to see the DSOs interpolation of the individual data points.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: sanka on January 16, 2013, 07:52:38 pm
[...]
See this post in marmad's software tips and tricks thread:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175707/#msg175707 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg175707/#msg175707)

Be sure to read the warnings and follow instructions upgrading the firmware --- only do upgrade during BOOT!  Search this thread and the above thread for details on the procedure.

Thanks, Sparky. It worked very well. I did the upgrade upon the very first power up after taking the scope out of the box. System Information page shows s/w version 00.00.01.00.05, with h/w version 1.0.1.0.0.

I guess the upgrade completed when the CH 1 button stopped blinking and all the front panel lights came on steady. I waited a long time to see if some screen update might happen. After staring at the steady lights and the blank screen for some 20 minutes, I lost patience, turned off the power, took out the USB stick, powered it back on, and found that everything was fine!

Now, it is time to play :-) Thanks again for pointing me to the right posts.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2013, 07:56:11 pm
I guess the upgrade completed when the CH 1 button stopped blinking and all the front panel lights came on steady. I waited a long time to see if some screen update might happen. After staring at the steady lights and the blank screen for some 20 minutes, I lost patience, turned off the power, took out the USB stick, powered it back on, and found that everything was fine!

Hmm...not completely sure it worked correctly. Do you still have your trial options? If not, it went wrong - if so, things are fine.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: sanka on January 16, 2013, 07:59:43 pm
[...] since the discovery of the Memory Read bug in FW 05 (Software can't read sample memory from scope: #9 in our compiled list of bugs in the first post of this thread) (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659), I would just urge you to think a moment before upgrading if you use (or want to use fairly soon) MATLAB, LabVIEW, or any other third party software which needs to read the sample memory for processing.
[...]
Thanks for the warning, Marmad. I did the 01.00.05 upgrade as I don't plan on using third party software any time soon.
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: sanka on January 16, 2013, 08:17:39 pm
I guess the upgrade completed when the CH 1 button stopped blinking and all the front panel lights came on steady. I waited a long time to see if some screen update might happen. After staring at the steady lights and the blank screen for some 20 minutes, I lost patience, turned off the power, took out the USB stick, powered it back on, and found that everything was fine!

Hmm...not completely sure it worked correctly. Do you still have your trial options? If not, it went wrong - if so, things are fine.

Hi Marmad,
Upon boot, Installed Options screen shows three categories of options - TRIGGER, DECODE, and MEM_DEPTH - with a few sub options under them. The Time Left column shows 2122Minute for all rows. Is that a happy scope?

btw, I read in another post here that Self Calibration takes away the trial options. Is that true with 1.0.5 too? Should I refrain from calibrating until after I have played with the trial options?
Thanks
Title: Re: How can I get the new firmware?
Post by: marmad on January 16, 2013, 08:31:49 pm
...shows 2122Minute for all rows. Is that a happy scope?

All is well  :)

Quote
btw, I read in another post here that Self Calibration takes away the trial options. Is that true with 1.0.5 too? Should I refrain from calibrating until after I have played with the trial options?

Yes, do NOT do self-cal! When you are down to your last hour of trial options, PM me for instructions to keep trial options going. As long as you don't let them expire, it seems as if you can keep them going, perhaps indefinitely.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 16, 2013, 09:13:26 pm
@EV: Thanks for checking. Is it possible we could get one other owner with a DS2072 and FW 01.00.05 to check their screen saver? Sparky? I can't imagine that it has anything to do with model number, but it might be good to be sure.

However now I still have the initial problem.. No screensaver :(

@Orbiter: Since two others with the same firmware as you have it working, time to try various settings on the scope to see which one might affect it. I'd start with a 'reset' to default settings (I can't remember in which menu that is located on the DSO - but I know it's there) - then try the screen saver again first before altering anything. Then - with screen saver set to time out in 1 minute, I'd try changing some of the more obvious settings/options and give it a minute to timeout.

BTW, do you have any trial or permanent options running? Both EV and I have at least one permanent option - which, theoretically, might make a difference. That's another reason it would be good to hear from another DS2072/FW 01.00.05 user.

Apologies for not replying sooner guys, only just got back to checking the forum.

Thanks marmad, EV and sparky for checking the screensaver mode for me  :-+

Unfortunately my screensaver is still not operational :(  I don't have any permanent options marmad, but would love to get hold of the advanced trigger some time. I do still have around 300 minutes of all the trial options available though.

Thanks again guys.

EDIT:..   OK an update..

Just forwarded the clock on the scope and re-calibrated it afterwards.. Guess what? I now have a screen screen saver :)  However now I've lost my trials :(
Oh-well can't have everything. Wonder if they'll come back if I reverse the clock  :-/O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sanka on January 16, 2013, 11:28:48 pm
EDIT:..   OK an update..
Just forwarded the clock on the scope and re-calibrated it afterwards.. Guess what? I now have a screen screen saver :)  However now I've lost my trials :(

Well, take this with a grain of salt as I have had the scope for just a couple of hours. But here is what I found with my DS2072 running 01.00.05 f/w.

Screen saver doesn't activate.

I tried under two conditions - 1. With the clock set to Beijing time (or so it seemed) as it came from the factory, and 2. With the clock set back to my local time (Pacific Standard Time).

I also did a reset of settings to default values using the Storage->Default menu. No dice!

I didn't play around with any other settings. I also don't have any purchased options. Just trial options. The time left in trial options were unaffected by my system clock settings.

Thanks

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 17, 2013, 01:59:24 am
Screen saver doesn't activate.
I tried under two conditions - 1. With the clock set to Beijing time (or so it seemed) as it came from the factory, and 2. With the clock set back to my local time (Pacific Standard Time).

Well, clearly there is some kind of screen saver bug, but since at least two of us with 01.00.05 report them working - it must be caused by some combination (or lack of) settings, options, etc. Not really sure how we can figure out the parameters of it. I don't remember them ever NOT working, but I actually didn't start using them until I had owned the scope for awhile and started doing programming for it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sanka on January 17, 2013, 05:28:38 am
[...]
Well, clearly there is some kind of screen saver bug,
[...]
For what it is worth, I filed a report at http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/. (http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/.)  I want to see how responsive they are.

Quote
[...]
but since at least two of us with 01.00.05 report them working - it must be caused by some combination (or lack of) settings, options, etc. Not really sure how we can figure out the parameters of it.
[...]
I should have some time next week to play with and learn the scope a little bit. I'll tweak some settings and report back if screensaver starts to work.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 17, 2013, 11:06:52 pm

It's interesting to see the DSOs interpolation of the individual data points.
@ Sparky
Here are displays showing how the DS2072 interpolates 1 Sample off line ,vectors and dots

Then displays of 2 Samples in a row off line, vectors and dots
Note how 2 samples will make the trace going more offline

These are very unlikely to occur unless a weird event happens, IE a Neutrino hits the ADC
It is more to show the interpolation function

For Sin(x)x See these discussions:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sin(x)x-interpolation-and-digital-filters-in-oscilloscopes/#top (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sin(x)x-interpolation-and-digital-filters-in-oscilloscopes/#top)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/)
[/quote]
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 17, 2013, 11:28:46 pm
It's interesting to see the DSOs interpolation of the individual data points.
@ Sparky
Here are displays showing how the DS2072 interpolates 1 Sample off line ,vectors and dots

Then displays of 2 Samples in a row off line, vectors and dots
Note how 2 samples will make the trace going more offline

These are very unlike to occur unless a weird event happens, IE a Neutrino hits the ADC
It is more to show the interpolation function

@Teneyes  --- AWESOME!!  THANKS!!  :D
That's very exciting to see --- I had no idea DSO was doing truncated sinc interpolation of the data points when choosing "vectors" over "dots".  Until I saw your first result showing the interpolation, I thought DSO just used linear interpolation when choosing vectors!

I have often wondered why is it called "Vectors"?  Clearly it is not "join the dots" mode, so calling it "Lines" or "Linear" or similar would be misleading.  Can anyone tell us, where the name "Vectors" has originated from?  Perhaps they should call it "Sinc"!

Would be nice if there was a way to change the interpolation function (just a few coefficients in memory...) because, for example, it's easy to imagine a scenario in which all data points should be positive, and so linear interpolation might be more appropriate (least some of our data ends up with negative values which would be an artifact of e.g. sinc interpolation).

Thanks again Teneyes!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 18, 2013, 09:58:30 am
Here are some risetime measurements with my with DS2202. Signals (10 MHz) are from Rigol DG4162 generator. Generators rise time measured with fast oscilloscope is <1.4 ns . Signals are connected to scope with Rigol feed thru 50 ohm terminator.

In first picture signal is from sync output connector. Average rise time is 1.72 ns.
It gives bandwidth 350 / 1.72  = 205 MHz to scope.

In second picture is signal from generators output connector. Its average rise time is 4.1 ns. It is much slower than with signal from sync output.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Lizerd on January 18, 2013, 10:29:31 am
Here you have another one who found this thread and decided to buy a DS2072.
Had a Instek before and the difference is huge.

No finally i gone trough the whole thread here :)
and wow what an effort  :-+

I did register to be able to comment and contribute  :)

Where do i find the Firmware updates ?

I have the FW 00.00.01

I cant see that that anyone else has mentioned it, but when i start-up the unit with a USB stick inserted, the unit can not find the momorystick at all. i have to power down and restart without the memorystick, and insert it when the unit is running to be able to use the memorystick.

also another thing that annoys me.
in Diskmanger there is no return arrow like in the other function boxes.
Storage->DiskManager
It's not a big deal , but it is some thing i noticed.

I hope USB-Boot is fixed in the newer FW, i almost always have i memory stick in the scope.

Many thanks for the good reading  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 18, 2013, 11:03:34 am

Where do i find the Firmware updates ?

You can find it here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/15/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/15/)

It is posted by studio25.

Be careful not to loose trial options! It must be installed when booting the scope. Read instructions here in the forum. You can find the instructions on the first post of this thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 18, 2013, 07:58:14 pm
For Sin(x)x See these discussions:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sin(x)x-interpolation-and-digital-filters-in-oscilloscopes/#top (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/sin(x)x-interpolation-and-digital-filters-in-oscilloscopes/#top)

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/)

Thanks for pointing this out Teneyes! Had a quick look --- interesting stuff!  I will read it closely a bit later :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 18, 2013, 09:11:00 pm
Hi guys.. Think I've found another small issue with the menu display time (FW 01.00.05)

With trial options still enabled, if you select either 10 or 20 seconds for the menu display time. Only the left hand side menu
will hide itself after the selected time, the right side menu stays put. However if you select either 1,2 or 5 seconds for the display time, both side menu's work
and hide properly. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on January 18, 2013, 11:59:24 pm
I got my DS2072 delivered today. This forum/thread and Marmad have been a great help in the deciding what to get. I've played with a for a couple of hours and it has been been awesome so far. Solid feel, low noise fan, clear menus. Comming from an 1984 analogue scope, I'm amazed by all the features, but was able to utilize them with relative ease. Very intuitive. Ultravision is cool as well. Feels like a CRT :).
Hopefully I can be of some help to this thread.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on January 19, 2013, 12:43:38 am
I've found a bug. Very minor, but a bug nontheless. I'm using firmware 00.00.01.00.05:
When using the menu timeout feature (menus retract after a set amount of seconds of inactivity), pressing any of the menu buttons or flipping to a next page resets the timer. It doens't do this for the left-side menus. No matter what button you press, the left menu always retracts after the set time from initial activation. The only way to 'keep it open' is to press a button the instant it retracts.

I can confirm the X-Y swap is fixed in 00.00.01.00.05 (still in the list in the first post).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 19, 2013, 01:48:57 am
I've found a bug. Very minor, but a bug nontheless. I'm using firmware 00.00.01.00.05:
When using the menu timeout feature (menus retract after a set amount of seconds of inactivity), pressing any of the menu buttons or flipping to a next page resets the timer.
DS2072 FW1.00.02
Related to this is the very annoyance/bug that once the menu retract time is set, the selection of letters in a file name does NOT reset the timer so it is hard to label files especially if switching to Capital letters in the short time.
I'm not sure if FW 1.00.05 still has this.   (we continue  to do Beta testing for Rigol)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 19, 2013, 03:00:49 am
I've found a bug. Very minor, but a bug nontheless. I'm using firmware 00.00.01.00.05:
When using the menu timeout feature (menus retract after a set amount of seconds of inactivity), pressing any of the menu buttons or flipping to a next page resets the timer. It doens't do this for the left-side menus. No matter what button you press, the left menu always retracts after the set time from initial activation. The only way to 'keep it open' is to press a button the instant it retracts.

I gave up trying to use the menu timeout feature because I didn't think it was well-implemented. The animation often isn't smooth (or is interrupted by external events) and I assume this is because the DSO is giving redraw priority (rightly so) to waveform display. But why have animation at all (especially if it isn't smooth)? If I use a menu timeout I just want the menus to go away - from fully out to fully in instantly would be fine with me.

Quote
I can confirm the X-Y swap is fixed in 00.00.01.00.05 (still in the list in the first post).

As far as I know, the X-Y swap bug has not been fixed in any version of firmware - except the engineering version which Dave had briefly. It's not fixed in my FW 01.00.05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Lizerd on January 19, 2013, 08:04:59 am

Quote
You are not reporting the full Firmware revision
Aaah thats right,
I have FW 00.00.01.00.02

Quote
Storage->DiskManager
Yes that is annoying but the return is there on the second page of the menu,
I totally missed that, think i checked the second page, but noo i had not :)
Thanks
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 19, 2013, 12:58:48 pm
So i did got back the trail options, and for test i did an auto cal to get rid of the trail options.  ( version ..005 )
That worked, all the trail options are gone after the self calibration.

I will test now to see if i can get it back again, i want to discover a solid reset.


I have found that following a re-cal the trials will normally return after a couple of cold restarts.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 19, 2013, 01:00:21 pm
I've found a bug. Very minor, but a bug nontheless. I'm using firmware 00.00.01.00.05:
When using the menu timeout feature (menus retract after a set amount of seconds of inactivity), pressing any of the menu buttons or flipping to a next page resets the timer. It doens't do this for the left-side menus. No matter what button you press, the left menu always retracts after the set time from initial activation. The only way to 'keep it open' is to press a button the instant it retracts.

I can confirm the X-Y swap is fixed in 00.00.01.00.05 (still in the list in the first post).

Hey.. I'm claiming that find :) Two posts earlier ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Lizerd on January 19, 2013, 05:54:50 pm
Quote
And my trail options are back again
Ooo how did you do that ?
Did it return by itself or by cold starts as orbiter said ?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on January 19, 2013, 07:44:21 pm
I can confirm the X-Y swap is fixed in 00.00.01.00.05 (still in the list in the first post).

As far as I know, the X-Y swap bug has not been fixed in any version of firmware - except the engineering version which Dave had briefly. It's not fixed in my FW 01.00.05.
Your absolutely right. It was a long day, late at night  :=\. My logic thinking out the window it seems. X-Y is still swapped
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 19, 2013, 07:57:04 pm
I have also fw ..005,

On ch 1 i get the Y
On ch 2 i get the X

What is wrong with that.., on my anloge scoop it is also this way
ch1 give the vertical and channel 2 the horizontal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 19, 2013, 09:43:17 pm
What is wrong with that.., on my anloge scoop it is also this way
ch1 give the vertical and channel 2 the horizontal.

Traditionally, it's written 'XY mode' and, numerically, you think CH1=X  CH2=Y, but it's not ALWAYS done this way - and not a big deal either way in my opinion.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 19, 2013, 09:57:32 pm
@Teneyes and Sparky:

So, I was curious after seeing Teneyes' posted images as to whether the interpolated curves actually passed correctly through the sample points - so I combined the two PNGs into one - with the original sample points superimposed as white dots:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=37277;image)

As you can see, it is perfectly correct.

Perhaps we need to make more checks like this at higher frequencies (approaching BW limit) to see if the DS2000 series suffers the same problems pointed out in the old thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/) (in which rf-loop pointed out that in the Rigol DS1052E/DS1102E, Rigol's implementation of SIN(X)/X was terribly wrong at frequencies approaching the rated BW)?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Sparky on January 20, 2013, 12:15:32 am
@Teneyes and Sparky:
As you can see, it is perfectly correct.

Perhaps we need to make more checks like this at higher frequencies (approaching BW limit) to see if the DS2000 series suffers the same problems pointed out in the old thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/https://www.eevblog.com/forum/chat/rigol-ds1000e-series-possible-errorfail-in-sin(x)x-interpolation/) (in which rf-loop pointed out that in the Rigol DS1052E/DS1102E, Rigol's implementation of SIN(X)/X was terribly wrong at frequencies approaching the rated BW)?

Good idea for testing this marmad!  It is good to know Rigol have fixed this problem that was shown in the related DS1000 series thread.  Some people here have 100 MHz function gen's -- may be someone will be able to show dots and vectors and we will see how the interpolation matches up.

BTW, do you know where then name "Vectors" has come from?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 20, 2013, 01:47:24 am
BTW, do you know where then name "Vectors" has come from?

No idea. But clearly that choice of menu selection name is, if not semantically incorrect, is at least rather misleading - it certainly isn't doing linear interpolation - it's something involving curves. But perhaps Rigol isn't doing true SIN(X)/X, so that don't want to make the mistake of calling it that again (and they don't mention it in the owners manual) - so they just use 'vectors' as a kind of vague term for some kind of interpolation that they don't want to fully explain. We'll have to ask drieg to ask Rigol at some point if they will say what the actual formula is. For now, I'd just like to be sure that whatever math they do ends up with the interpolated waveform passing through the actual sample points at all frequencies up to BW.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on January 20, 2013, 07:28:05 am
so they just use 'vectors' as a kind of vague term for some kind of interpolation that they don't want to fully explain.

it looks like they may be using splines interpolation
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 20, 2013, 11:41:08 pm
I have taken a display of data from the fastest setting of my DS2072 (5nS/div) with 2 Channels  for 1GSa/s
and saved the waveform, then I manually set the Data Points with Hex File Editor,

I created a spreadsheet of "Idea" sine wave data values, and placed them in the file
I will show you the Data Points and the 'Vector' Display which always goes Through each data point.

Now the 1st two displays show a sine wave made up of 4 points,  now each point is 1nsec, therefore 4 x 1 = 4nSec or 250 MHz

Now the 3rd &4th  displays show a sine wave made up of 6 points,  now each point is 1nsec,therefore 6 x 1 = 6nSec or 166 MHz

Note that with only 6 points, sinewave only 2 points are above center and there are no data points at the peak of the sinewave, giving a smaller  peak-peak display.  I think a result of only 8 bit resolution.

I would like to test displaying waveform data on a 2nS/div display.  I will be sending a PM to DS2202 owner to help and sent me a waveform file "xxx.wfm".
It will be interesting to see if a File saved on DS2202 can be loaded in to a DS2072 ???

If so I will Manually set data for  a small number of point on a Fast scan display

Please note there are data points in the file  before and after the displayed data points such that  affect the display, In these displays I repeated the pattern.

GIVE THANKS to Marmad's RUU software that makes these screen captures very Easy. :) :) :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 21, 2013, 06:05:24 am
Can anyone provide a Dots display of a real 400MHz signal into a DS2202 with 2 chans (1GSa/s)?

My generator goes only up to 160 MHz. I send it to you.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 21, 2013, 10:25:33 am
Hey look at this Noisy Waveform,  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Lizerd on January 21, 2013, 10:35:34 am
oh that was noisy :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 21, 2013, 01:10:03 pm
Hey look at this Noisy Waveform,  ;D

He he, you have uppgraded to DS2202.  :P
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 05:24:06 pm
Here a picture of 400 mhz on my 2072, in dots and vectors
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 06:09:34 pm
Here a nice picture if you approach half the sample rate
first picture 1 Gsa and the second 2 Gsa, nice alias
And the third picture the dots of the alias picture
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 06:18:16 pm
@ Teneyse

Here 3 pictures, 400 mhz stable on the display,
then the dots , they are moving, you normaly dont see that,
the dots re moving while the display is stable.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 08:13:41 pm
@ Teneyes,

Three pictures, 200 mhz
1 is Dots
2 vectors
3 running

You can see that running gives some noise, because of the moving dots
In vectors single mode you see the distorted sinus.
Just in running mode you get the nice sinus.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 21, 2013, 09:03:54 pm
Some fun with the Rigol, 600 Mhz, picture in vector and dots.
The signal is 25 dB down on this frequency. But still some pictures.
For the relation of the vectors and the dots.

The counter is lost his mind, but the cursor gives the right frequency
which was on the signal generator 598.0 Mhz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 21, 2013, 09:14:32 pm
@Teneyes, Wim13, EV:

Thanks for all the research, info, and posting! Great stuff - and very interesting!
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on January 22, 2013, 06:45:39 am
some really nice looking screen captures up there!  :-+  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 23, 2013, 07:28:20 pm
Yet another happy DS2072 owner signing up:)
Initial impressions of the new scope are very good!

I considered for some time whether to buy this one or save some money and get a cheaper scope. I'm pretty confident that I don't have to regret my decision:)
And the big screen is really nice!

Bought my unit from drieg (Silcon Electronics, http://www.silcon.cz/ (http://www.silcon.cz/)). I can warmly recommend buying from him if you want good and fast product support!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sanka on January 23, 2013, 08:43:15 pm
Well, clearly there is some kind of screen saver bug,
For what it is worth, I filed a report at http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/. (http://www.rigolna.com/tech-support/.)  I want to see how responsive they are.
[...]
I should have some time next week to play with and learn the scope a little bit. I'll tweak some settings and report back if screensaver starts to work.

Well, I thought I'd play around with it today. But it turns out that the unit is defective. I couldn't get it to do the initial Probe Compensation Function Inspection, per Page 7 of the manual. I keep getting "Auto Failed" error messages.

Besides, there appears to be a screen related defect. At times, upon power up, it shows blue screens and a lot of noise. I could get it to eventually show normal screen after power cycling 4-5 times. But there is something evidently wrong with the unit.

I called Rigol NA in Ohio. A very helpful gentleman helped me debug it on the phone and concluded that a new unit will have to be sent out. He is arranging for the RMA and an Advance Exchange (i.e., he will send out a new unit before my unit reaches him).

Although the unit I received was defective, I got a chance to check out Rigol NA Support and they appear helpful and prompt.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 23, 2013, 09:33:56 pm

I called Rigol NA in Ohio. A very helpful gentleman helped me debug it on the phone and concluded that a new unit will have to be sent out. He is arranging for the RMA and an Advance Exchange (i.e., he will send out a new unit before my unit reaches him).

Although the unit I received was defective, I got a chance to check out Rigol NA Support and they appear helpful and prompt.

Thanks for your report!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on January 24, 2013, 04:49:13 am
I'm trying to figure out the SPI decode function and not having much luck (even with RTFM :(   Can you guys please help?

I captured the SDA - Ch1 and SCLK - Ch2,

rising slope, 2.74v threshold for SCLK
Reverse Polarity, 1.25v threshold for SDA

I guess this supposed to show 4 bits (1010 ?), but it doesn't.   What am I doing wrong?  |O
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flano on January 24, 2013, 05:27:43 am
Hi Everyone,

Well done to all of the contributors to this thread, it has some great info which I have been following over time.

I received a new DS2202 in the mail today and I'm very impressed having come from a DS1102e.

Has anyone done much with the I2C trigger. I can get it to trigger on a Start condition however I don't seem to be able to get it to trigger on a Missing Ack or Address.

Has anyone else experienced this? It may well be user error or some sort of Software issue on the board that I'm using to test.

Thanks Mike
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 24, 2013, 05:57:09 am
Has anyone done much with the I2C trigger. I can get it to trigger on a Start condition however I don't seem to be able to get it to trigger on a Missing Ack or Address.

@Mike: I haven't had more time to test the I2C trigger other than what I did in the review (which was triggering on a Start condition). I'll be back at my DSO in a couple of days and can test triggering on a NACK and some other conditions and let you know what I find.

@Vasily: Sorry, I haven't used the SPI decode at all - and don't have any SPI interfaces in my studio which I can test handily. Maybe someone else can help with this?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 24, 2013, 06:13:48 am
I am reporting a bug on 500uv only, where the display of the trace trigger point on the Center vertical graticule ( orange T arrow down)  is offset higher that then trigger level. This offset higher , is bigger at larger trigger Levels. See the Pics

Well, the first thing I would ask is whether the same thing happens at the 5ns timebase setting? Since you are... um... how shall I put it? ...using a timebase setting which is 'unavailable' on your model  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on January 24, 2013, 06:26:46 am
My options are EXPIRED, but still there..

This is a great find, Wim (and Teneyes) - nice work!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 06:37:41 am
FW 1.00.02
@marmad  ,
   This is a repeat report, I connectted a low level signal to Channel 1 , & set 8 point averaging for cleaner trace. The vertical scale was set to 500uV. 
 I am reporting a bug on 500uv only, where the display of the trace trigger point on the Center vertical graticule ( orange T arrow down)  is offset higher that then trigger level. This offset higher , is bigger at larger trigger Levels. See the Pics
Can anyone confirm my testing??? 
This is a small bug.

Have you calibrated the scope? There can be offset if the scope has not been calibrated.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 08:15:33 am
This may only occur on FW 1.00.02

There is No Offset on any other vertical scale.
There is No Offset when trigger level is 0.0. @ 500uV
The Trace does not offset, just the indication of the trigger point, IE the trace shifts to the left

DS2202, FW 1.00.05

Here are my pictures triggering Normal, Average 128 trig at 0 uV, Average 128 trig at 500 uV and Average 128 trig at 830 uV. If trig level is set bigger than 830 uV, the scope does not trig. Signal is 100MHz 2 mVpp sine. Note that average amplitude is rising up at trig point, when rising trig level. So scope is triggering to noise!?

Edit: Singnal is connected with BNC cable with feed thru 50 ohm terminator. There is offset at the last picture.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 11:27:40 am

Yes Noise affects the trigger point ,
I am saying the bug is how the trigger point is displayed

At 1 mv , all is OK

There is also offset at 1 mV level. Here is 100 kHz 2 mVpp normal signal with BW 20 MHz. Triggering is possible between levels -390 uV and 1.31 mV. Outside this the scope does not trigger. In both pictures there is offset.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 24, 2013, 01:26:19 pm
Hiya friends,

Ok.. so I know 'Auto' is not the best way of setting-up a scope for measuring signals. However I was just fiddling around this morning when I wanted a quick
signal detection. So I presses the Auto button but it doesn't do much really, apart from switch on both channels and show a waveform that then needs manually triggering. On previous scopes I've had the scope at least makes a decent attempt at showing a triggered signal.

I hear the relays click etc, & the signals I'm measuring are well within Rigols specified/recommended minimum parameters e.g... 50Hz 20mVpp.

Is this the norm on the DS2072?

Thanks fellas 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 01:39:09 pm
At least at 1mv/div  the Center and trigger line intersect on the Trace.

I think the offst  you are seeing is your 100KHS is modulated on a slower signal, like Mains power,
If you set Scan rate much slower , I think you'll see the higher Freq.  on a low Freq.

Maybe, but why it is not possible to move the trigger line more than 390 uV down? Up it can be moved 1.31 mV and then it is on the upper side of the signal. The possible movement is not symmetric.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 24, 2013, 02:03:34 pm
Is this the norm on the DS2072?

Yes, look at the bug 7 on the first post. There is no alt trigger, so AUTO is useful only for a signal on one channel and if there is an easy signal. I have not used it at all for a long time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on January 24, 2013, 02:46:37 pm
Is this the norm on the DS2072?

Yes, look at the bug 7 on the first post. There is no alt trigger, so AUTO is useful only for a signal on one channel and if there is an easy signal. I have not used it at all for a long time.

Ah yes.. Thank you EV, & Marmad.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 24, 2013, 04:21:15 pm
Has anyone done much with the I2C trigger. I can get it to trigger on a Start condition however I don't seem to be able to get it to trigger on a Missing Ack or Address.

Has anyone else experienced this? It may well be user error or some sort of Software issue on the board that I'm using to test.

Thanks Mike

I tried the I2C triggers quickly today and they seem to work fine if you have correct settings.
I had a bit noisy I2C-lines and couldn't get trigger to missing ack/address at first. When I changed the trigger setting "Noise Reject ON", the triggers started working fine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: kape on January 24, 2013, 05:40:50 pm
Does anybody want to tear apart the scope ?)
I noticed from Dave's teardown video, that the chip next to the BlackFin CPU is actually I2C FRAM (ferroelectric RAM).
Presumably some interesting data is inside :)

Maybe the DS2000 is intelligent enough to read its own I2C bus... :)
And maybe this kind of conversation should be moved somewhere else...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: sanka on January 24, 2013, 06:26:18 pm
I couldn't get it to do the initial Probe Compensation Function Inspection, per Page 7 of the manual. I keep getting "Auto Failed" error messages.
For future reference , the "Auto Failed" message usually means No signal attached or it is too small for the DSO to detect and Auto Lock.
Will we ever know the cause of Failure?    Loose heat sink Clips??

Hi Teneyes,
As they are replacing the unit rather than repairing it, I doubt that I'll get any report of what they fixed. In fact, just before packing it up to return, I wanted to test some more. So I did a dozen or so power off/on followed by that probe compensation auto lock test. The lock worked after 4-5 power ons. But "Auto Failed" after the rest of the power ons.

In addition, possibly unrelated to the auto lock issue, the screen would freak out every once in a while showing either full screen blue background or yellow background (the same color as the traces) with heavy noise at the top and bottom. It would happen randomly and go away after about 10-20 seconds or after a power cycle.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: flano on January 25, 2013, 11:12:04 am

Has anyone done much with the I2C trigger. I can get it to trigger on a Start condition however I don't seem to be able to get it to trigger on a Missing Ack or Address.
Thanks Mike
welcome to the forum;
Assuming you have looked at signal to be right levels and generally OK
SDA , SCL assigned correctly
Do you  know that there Is a missing Ack(s)?

I assume you know the Address, and maybe you can Scan slowly thru all addresses 1-127

Can you Att a screen shot with Menu open ,  like shown below
I find using Marmad's RUU 1.5.1 very easy  & fast

See: https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575 (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg171575/#msg171575)

I'll call this one user error. After some messing around and simplification of my code I got it to successfully trigger.

Here are some screen captures for future reference.

Thanks for the quick replies.

Mike

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pena on January 25, 2013, 12:07:50 pm
Hi forum,

Here's another DS2072 owner de-lurking. I got mine a couple of days ago. Ended up to DS2072 mostly because of the information here. Thank you all! I ordered the scope (and another to my workmate) from silcon.cz. What a pleasure to buy from someone who knows his products. All my questions were answered quickly and friendly. No problems with the delivery, either.

My initial impression of the device has been good. Very nice upgrade from DS1052E. First things to notice are the large screen and the temperature controlled fan. You can hear the fan when the unit warms up but it doesn't disturb that much. And having separate knobs for both channels in the vertical system is a relief. At least after I learn to find the horizontal knobs from a new place. Already too many times I've been puzzled for a moment when trying to use CH2 scale for adjusting time/div... Oh, well :).

One of the features my old scope didn't have is the trigger output. I'm interested in using a scope in combination with a PC based logic analyzer. Getting them both triggered synchronously from an analog signal is going to be great. To play a little I made a quick setup where the scope was triggered to a 10Hz square wave from a signal generator on CH1. Then I connected the trigger output to CH2. The output delay seems to be about 220 ns with some jitter in it. Changing to 5ns/div and infinite persistence showed that the jitter is bounded within an about 8 ns window. Something in the scope clocked at 125MHz? Anyway, the frequencies of the signals I mostly work with are way lower. And the inexpensive USB based logic analyzer I use doesn't sample that fast anyway.

By the way, I had to use a second scope to get the width of the trigger output pulse measured. It seems to correlate with the time/div setting and the memory depth in use. When I first increased the waveform length of the DS2072 trying to get the falling edge on the screen, it got again pushed out of reach :). They mention in the user's manual that the trigger out can be used to find out the capture rate. Could it be so that the signal could also be used to determine if the scope is busy? That might be useful in some mixed signal debugging cases. A microcontroller could start something only when the scope is ready to capture. I wonder if the dead time is included in that... Maybe I'll continue comparing the trigger pulse length to the length of the captured waveform. And could try to increase the frequency of the input signal so that its period gets closer to the pulse width of the trigger output.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 25, 2013, 03:44:09 pm
By the way, I had to use a second scope to get the width of the trigger output pulse measured. It seems to correlate with the time/div setting and the memory depth in use.
Wellcome to the forum!

DS2202, FW 1.00.05

The signal from trigger out is very fast rising and falling. I measured it with my TDS3032 (BW 300 MHz) scope and got rise and fall time both to be 1.05 ns. It can be faster but my scope can not measure it. Rise time 1.05 ns gives bandwidth 350 / 1.05 = 333 MHz (> 300 MHz).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 25, 2013, 05:22:28 pm
DS2202, FW 1.00.05

The signal from trigger out is very fast rising and falling. I measured it with my TDS3032 (BW 300 MHz) scope and got rise and fall time both to be 1.05 ns. It can be faster but my scope can not measure it. Rise time 1.05 ns gives bandwidth 350 / 1.05 = 333 MHz (> 300 MHz).

Here is picture of Rigols trigger out signals rise time. It is measured with Fet probe. When using direct BNC cable, rise time is measured to 1.09 ns.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 25, 2013, 06:11:13 pm
Here is rise time (1.60 ns) measured with my DS2202 from trigger out signal. CH1 is connected to 1 MHz signal and CH2 is connected to trigger out signal with BNC cable with feed thru 50 ohm terminator.

BW = 350 / 1.60 = 219 MHz to my scope.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 25, 2013, 06:22:53 pm
By the way, I had to use a second scope to get the width of the trigger output pulse measured. It seems to correlate with the time/div setting and the memory depth in use.
Wellcome to the forum!

DS2202, FW 1.00.05

The signal from trigger out is very fast rising and falling. I measured it with my TDS3032 (BW 300 MHz) scope and got rise and fall time both to be 1.05 ns. It can be faster but my scope can not measure it. Rise time 1.05 ns gives bandwidth 350 / 1.05 = 333 MHz (> 300 MHz).
Sorry, stupid me, where is the 350 come from?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 25, 2013, 06:43:24 pm
Sorry, stupid me, where is the 350 come from?

Look here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_time (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rise_time)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: pena on January 26, 2013, 09:45:48 am
DS2202, FW 1.00.05

The signal from trigger out is very fast rising and falling. I measured it with my TDS3032 (BW 300 MHz) scope and got rise and fall time both to be 1.05 ns. It can be faster but my scope can not measure it. Rise time 1.05 ns gives bandwidth 350 / 1.05 = 333 MHz (> 300 MHz).

Here is picture of Rigols trigger out signals rise time. It is measured with Fet probe. When using direct BNC cable, rise time is measured to 1.09 ns.

Thank you, EV!

Interesting figures and and nice screenshots. That really is a pretty fast rising signal that might be useful some day.

Also a nice example of how the equipment used for measuring affects the results. It would be nice to know what even faster scope would give for the rise time.
Title: Delivery time frame for Rigol DS2072 in US
Post by: wb3fsr on January 27, 2013, 02:40:40 am
Hi Folks,

Seems a number of you have recently purchased the DS2072....

I plan to order a DS2072on Monday and curious what others have recently experienced in delivery time from order placement with Rigol N/A ?

 :-+ Excellent forum

Title: Rigol DS2072 Screen in sun light
Post by: wb3fsr on January 27, 2013, 03:00:23 am
Here at the Jersey Shore when we are not wind swept with a Hurricane like Sandy, I like to roll a portion of my lab out onto the back patio and enjoy the great wx while prototyping and designing RF and control projects.

Any of you have experience with the DS2072 screen in sun light? Will the unit need a hood?

Also any hams that might comment on how well the instrument handles itself in high RF environments.  HT, 2 to 5 watts VHF/UHF 440 operation close by and HF kilowatt operation in shack... Excellent grounding of all equipment close by and used...

Tek & HP equipment here have no issues - I don't have any hands on experience with Rigol products.

TIA 73

PeterV



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 27, 2013, 11:50:04 am
Hello,

I saved some setup files before my trail options were expired.
For those whos trail options are also expired, here some of these files.
Where trail options are used.

There several setup files with different options used, just to play with
see if this is working for others users too, give us some feedback.
No garantee it will work but just analysing...
Title: Re: Rigol DS2072 Screen in sun light
Post by: Wim13 on January 27, 2013, 02:16:26 pm
Here at the Jersey Shore when we are not wind swept with a Hurricane like Sandy, I like to roll a portion of my lab out onto the back patio and enjoy the great wx while prototyping and designing RF and control projects.

Any of you have experience with the DS2072 screen in sun light? Will the unit need a hood?

Also any hams that might comment on how well the instrument handles itself in high RF environments.  HT, 2 to 5 watts VHF/UHF 440 operation close by and HF kilowatt operation in shack... Excellent grounding of all equipment close by and used...

Tek & HP equipment here have no issues - I don't have any hands on experience with Rigol products.

TIA 73

PeterV

Not with direct sunlight, but i find very good with indirect sunlight.

With HF en VHF, the Rigol is complete shielded, so i my case i dont see any problems, i have some
hf on the cables so it is difficult to tell, with no cables is looks good. My earth connection is
to long. On VHF i have never seen any noise.

I had more trouble with these modern lamps with converters in it, when they are near
your test object. Sometimes i have to turn of the lights. But that has nothing to do with the Rigol.
Title: RF enviro
Post by: wb3fsr on January 27, 2013, 03:49:26 pm
Wim,

That's good news on the sun light issue - yes indirect works for me... Wife had me get a white canopy for the outdoor patio and now she has second thoughts when she see's all the wires and equipment out there LOLs  :scared:

My radio tower ground is within ten feet so I should be good then,

73

PeterV
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 27, 2013, 04:00:17 pm
I have a problem that when I use DS2102 to test a audio BTL driver, Math function A+B is use for checking any differential signal during rise/fall time, the signal on screen show a lot of noise and apparently should not be that great and have been verify by using TEKWAY DSO, anyone can give me a hand?  May be I was operate the scope wrongly.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 27, 2013, 04:45:41 pm
I have a problem that when I use DS2102 to test a audio BTL driver, Math function A+B is use for checking any differential signal during rise/fall time, the signal on screen show a lot of noise and apparently should not be that great and have been verify by using TEKWAY DSO, anyone can give me a hand?  May be I was operate the scope wrongly.

I have attach two pictures giving the same picture, first one with two probes, and
the second 1 probe connect to A and B.

Theory: 1 volt/div is 8 volts full scale, divided by 256 ( 8 bit resolution) is 31 mV per level,
the sampler goes up and down 1 level, so the noise is about 3 levels and that for each
channel and then added , gives a uncertainy of 6*31 is 187 mV, and thats is what i think you are seeing.

If you put avaraging on it gets beter...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 27, 2013, 04:56:40 pm
I got it, it's cause by the ADC resolution and I better end up using external circuit to do similar job.  My gone TELWAY 100MHz DSO which cost only 1/3 th the price can do the job beautifully.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 27, 2013, 05:08:15 pm
I got it, it's cause by the ADC resolution and I better end up using external circuit to do similar job.  My gone TELWAY 100MHz DSO which cost only 1/3 th the price can do the job beautifully.

Here same setup, in high resolution....oversampling, more resolution.

Thats why i keep also an analog scoop on the shelf, but will
be difficult in the future, they are not made anymore...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 27, 2013, 05:12:54 pm
Ha Ha, it seen technology is gone backward.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on January 27, 2013, 06:57:20 pm
Ha Ha, it seen technology is gone backward.

It's called "progress" ;). Probably can be fixed by using a higher bit depth adc. Give it a couple of years :)
Title: Re: Delivery time frame for Rigol DS2072 in US
Post by: TP on January 27, 2013, 07:47:45 pm
I have not purchased from RigolNA direct,  but good support from RigolNA when I lost my Trial options. I purchased from Tequipement as same price for DS but free Shipping.
Even with Back order I received in 11 days.  UPS took 6 Days. I also like Tequipement and bought another order and got 5% discount (web coupon)  under Rigol's price.

I bought my DS2072 from Tequipment in New Jersey as well.  When I was looking on their web page for other scopes it popped up a 5% discount offer.  While the popup didn't show when looking at Rigol scopes, I tried the code anyway and it worked.  The also gave free shipping.  There was a bit of a delay in shipping, but it was right after hurricane Sandy so it was understandable.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 27, 2013, 10:50:05 pm
Yes, but what I'm look for is A+B.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: JOHNJB on January 29, 2013, 09:13:26 pm
I have a problem that when I use DS2102 to test a audio BTL driver, Math function A+B is use for checking any differential signal during rise/fall time, the signal on screen show a lot of noise and apparently should not be that great and have been verify by using TEKWAY DSO, anyone can give me a hand?  May be I was operate the scope wrongly.

Is this a meaningful display for this topic ?

Update 1.005 solves some importants bugs in math function.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zlabsoft on January 30, 2013, 05:08:01 am
The above result in question is come from DS2102 firmware 1.0.0.5
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on January 30, 2013, 09:27:41 am
FW 1.00.02
Hi All
   This may be only on my version, but watch out for this quirk (bug)
   While saving DSO setups to a file on USB stick, look at the funny date stamps on the files I save between 06:55 to 07:00 ,
2 files were stamped with year 2043 and 2014-9-6.
Anyone else see this.!!!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on January 30, 2013, 04:05:41 pm
FW 1.00.02
Hi All
   This may be only on my version, but watch out for this quirk (bug)
   While saving DSO setups to a file on USB stick, look at the funny date stamps on the files I save between 06:55 to 07:00 ,
2 files were stamped with year 2043 and 2014-9-6.
Anyone else see this.!!!

Yes, on occasion, last weeks not
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tinhead on January 30, 2013, 06:05:54 pm
ui marmad .. the thread is running high :)

I'm looking for Rigol DS2k series user, with signal gen, to run some frequency response testes

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on January 30, 2013, 06:16:42 pm
ui marmad .. the thread is running high :)

I'm looking for Rigol DS2k series user, with signal gen, to run some frequency response testes

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/)
I have the equipment and can run these tests, but I think my BNC cables are garbage (they were cheap) as it's far too sensitive to movement. I'll try to get a stable setup to make some measurements tonight, if nobody else gets there first.

It'd be really hand to have a GPIB card for the siggen...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on January 30, 2013, 06:54:49 pm
I'll try to get a stable setup to make some measurements tonight, if nobody else gets there first.

My generator goes only up to 160 MHz, so it is not what they want.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on February 01, 2013, 07:57:27 am
ui marmad .. the thread is running high :)

I'm looking for Rigol DS2k series user, with signal gen, to run some frequency response testes

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/reviews/frequency-response-of-your-dso/)

I've posted my results over in that thread. My scope seems to be -3dB at about 100MHz. Interestingly CH2 looks better up to 150MHz or so, and then performs quite a bit worse than CH1 after that.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on February 02, 2013, 05:41:43 am
Apologies if I'm asking a simple and/or stupid question.  I can't find an answer in the manual and can't figure out how to search this thread for it.

I've somehow got my 2072 into a mode I can't get it out of.  The vertical sensitivity display for channel 1 has a tilde instead of an equal sign.   For example, it says "~ 1.00v" instead of "= 1.00v".  What did I do, and how do I get the equal sign back?  Channel 2 is ok, displays the equal sign.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 02, 2013, 06:44:04 am
I've somehow got my 2072 into a mode I can't get it out of.  The vertical sensitivity display for channel 1 has a tilde instead of an equal sign.   For example, it says "~ 1.00v" instead of "= 1.00v".  What did I do, and how do I get the equal sign back?  Channel 2 is ok, displays the equal sign.

It is on user manual page 2-3. You have AC coupling. Change it to DC coupling.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tigerwillow1 on February 02, 2013, 08:27:49 pm
It is on user manual page 2-3. You have AC coupling. Change it to DC coupling.
Thanks.  Now that I know what this symbol is, it's not only obvious, it's a nice feature.  And I realize now what I thought was an equal sign isn't, but a symbol for DC.  The book shows only the DC symbol explaining why I never found a "~".  I'm coming from an analog scope.  Thinking the DC symbol was an equal sign, I interpreted the tilde as meaning "approximately" instead of "ac coupling".  This seemed pretty analogous to "uncal" on the analog scope, and my thinking continued downhill from there.  Some parts of the transition from analog to DSO are obvious, and others are pretty different.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 03, 2013, 11:50:04 am
I'm coming from an analog scope.  Thinking the DC symbol was an equal sign, I interpreted the tilde as meaning "approximately" instead of "ac coupling".  This seemed pretty analogous to "uncal" on the analog scope, and my thinking continued downhill from there.
I don't really think there's an UNCAL for these scopes... since they can tell you the exact width of a div on the display, even if you're using a fractional one (you can do that by pressing the scale knob, then rotating). Sure, it might be more difficult to read, but it's still accurate. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on February 03, 2013, 01:17:25 pm
I posted this one also in the DSO graph, measured the Rigol 2072, with -10 dBm ( 70 mV)
direct on the BNC connector, measured every 10 Mhz.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 04, 2013, 12:23:17 am
This seemed pretty analogous to "uncal" on the analog scope, .
I don't really think there's an UNCAL for these scopes... Sure, it might be more difficult to read, but it's still accurate. :)

@Scummos & Tigerwillow
  Similar to UnCal on old Scopes in the time scale/div is the Fine Time scale adjustment
  Use the Scale "MENU" (between Scale and Postion)
  set "ScaleAdjust" to 'Fine'   for  1% adjustments 
   IE  10.0us/div to 10.1us/div

   For Vertical (V/div) Press the vertical Scale knob for  Voltage vernier in 2% steps
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 04, 2013, 12:36:54 am
Yeah, as I said you can get the same behaviour by pressing the knob. :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on February 06, 2013, 12:01:36 pm
I'm trying to figure out the following. Coming from an analog scope, I'm still getting my head around al these extra features! But can't figure out how to do (if even possible) what I want the scope to do: I'm trying to determine the absolute maximum pp voltage my bass guitar puts out. Ideally, I want the scope to hold on to the max measured value and capture the next highest if one occurs, either a value, or the waveform itself. Is this possible with the DS2072?? Or do I have to record a bit and track back the recorded waveform?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on February 06, 2013, 01:52:50 pm
I'm trying to figure out the following. Coming from an analog scope, I'm still getting my head around al these extra features! But can't figure out how to do (if even possible) what I want the scope to do: I'm trying to determine the absolute maximum pp voltage my bass guitar puts out. Ideally, I want the scope to hold on to the max measured value and capture the next highest if one occurs, either a value, or the waveform itself. Is this possible with the DS2072?? Or do I have to record a bit and track back the recorded waveform?

funk.  Try setting a really slow scan rate, for example 500ms or 1s and play your loudest notes. see if you get something useful this way. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 06, 2013, 04:11:15 pm
Or use a DMM with min-max.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on February 06, 2013, 09:10:44 pm
Ideally, I want the scope to hold on to the max measured value and capture the next highest if one occurs, either a value, or the waveform itself.

@FunK (brother?)
Select which channel , CH1 or Ch2
select left top menu  for "Vertical" menu
on left buttons
Select  Vpp

Select "Measure"
on right
Select "Statistics"  ON   

see table for Max Vpp

You may also Like:

select time base 100ms  or faster
select  "Display" menu (group of 6 menus)
select "Persis.Time" 
select "20s"
Thanks guys for the input  :-+
But Teneyes hit the home run! Works exactly how I want it.  I wasn't aware of the 'statistics' and only used the 'display all' setting and chose some values for the bottom part of the screen. The statistics actually hold on to the max value permenantly, until pressing clear or chosing another V/divs for example. The other two options I mentioned don't.

And very insightfull I might add. My active jazz bass puts out 6.32 Vpp played HARD. My Musicman Stingray a whoping 7.68 Vpp. Knowing a 12AX7 ideally can only handle 3 Vpp on it's grid before soft-clipping, there's work to be done at the input stage
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on February 06, 2013, 11:18:56 pm
I love this - rigol helps make better music :)

Just curious, did you measure while the guitars were plugged in to the input stage,powered on?  I guess the levels may change a bit under the load...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: martinv on February 07, 2013, 04:50:26 am
I guess the levels may change a bit under the load...
I second this.  I did a similar test with my pedal steel guitar and believe it made a sigificant difference with vs without load.  However, the bass under test (BUT?) volume control on is likely providing loading.   

I was surprised to see ~12V P-P (with a normal load) especially considering a lot of players run these into 9V powered pedals.  On the other hand it took some extreme picking to get that 12V.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: funk1980 on February 07, 2013, 03:27:57 pm
I guess the levels may change a bit under the load...
I second this.  I did a similar test with my pedal steel guitar and believe it made a sigificant difference with vs without load.  However, the bass under test (BUT?) volume control on is likely providing loading.   

I was surprised to see ~12V P-P (with a normal load) especially considering a lot of players run these into 9V powered pedals.  On the other hand it took some extreme picking to get that 12V.
Hahahaha Bass-Under-Test! That's a keeper.
The basses were unloaded, but since they use active electronics (buffered outputs) normally going into a 1 Meg impedance input, the voltagedrop would be minimal.

Concerning the large output voltages vs the 9V effect pedals, that's a common problem. Lots of pedals clip when driving them full force. Specially older hardware expecting passive instrument input.You either have to turn down your instruments volume (which can be undesirable, because it can alter the tone), or use an FX loop with adjustable output. Even my active Jazz bass (with after market Audere preamp) clips hard when turning both the volume and EQ to the max.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 08, 2013, 09:49:56 pm
Yet another 2000 user here. Upgraded from the 1000 series. First impressions are its a fast computing well thought out DSO. Just pressing "auto" is enough to demonstrate its speed. Operating satisfaction is up a league from the previous. Especially the dedicated metrics menu is a boon. Soft buttons green backlight could be stronger its only noticed when there is strong light direct on. The screen is fine as long as it is viewed at soft down looking angle. Above eye level positioning of the scope darkens it out. Better avoid such positioning if you can rearrange the bench gear. The fan is rather too noticeable in silent surroundings although heavier in tone and lower in SPL than in the 1000. Its just a close pass under ''nuisance'' level for me. The probes are short and agile enough to handle. Their speed looks adequate. There is a serious issue though. The hook sheath slips off too easily. Practically unusable when need to hang off a test point with their bottom down or in wide angle. Not different than those in the small series in that respect. I got the remedy though. 8) That is borrowing the hook cone bit from those P6100 el cheapo probes abundant on Ebay. They stick like glue to the Rigols. Don't go buy only spare cones some have on offer. Those slip away easily as well. The noise is hunky dory with the averaging or Hi Res mode on. About 100uV PK-PK @ 500uV vertical. With 20MHZ BWL the averaging method only beats the Hi Res method to 40uV PK-PK. More to explore in functions and details in the next few days, but you guys have covered all that Jazz already. I thought I could just commit the couple of hours long "first impressions" only as in the title of the thread.
Last but not least, I want to thank "Drieg" AKA Peter of www.silcon.cz (http://www.silcon.cz) for his phenomenal pre-sales and after sales support. Highly recommended seller for anybody buying in EU. Cheers Peter!
(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc53/salas_043/DS2000_zps9504e952.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 08, 2013, 10:09:47 pm
There is a serious issue though. The hook sheath slips off too easily.

You are not first with this. It is not in its place correctly. Push the hook tip harder to its place until it clicks!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 08, 2013, 10:27:18 pm
 :-+ You are right! I just tried that and it locks much better! Why on earth they don't mention "push further to lock" on the the probe's manual...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 10, 2013, 04:00:27 am
The scope sees its 3VPP 1kHz cal signal as unipolar, displays it above mid-line and measures it x0.71 for RMS when the channel is DC coupled. Unipolar square waves for RMS are supposed to be like sine waves indeed. Measures it x0.5 or VP when AC coupled as expected. My external generator outputs bipolar square anyway so the scope always centers it mid-line for AC/DC and measures it at VP for RMS when on 50% duty cycle. The FLUKE 87 measures the external gen near zero on its DCV setting and at VP on its ACV setting. But when measuring the probes cal signal it measures them at VP both on its ACV and DCV setting. F87 is a true RMS reading DMM. Are both the DS2000 and the F87 doing everything right?   :-DMM  :-// :-BROKE
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 10, 2013, 11:02:31 am
The scope sees its 3VPP 1kHz cal signal as unipolar, displays it above mid-line and measures it x0.71 for RMS when the channel is DC coupled. ...... F87 is a true RMS reading DMM. Are both the DS2000 and the F87 doing everything right?
@Salas:
 Check out user's guide  for Vrms calculation ; page 6-18 or   page 138 in pdf at:
http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/DS2000_UserGuide_EN.pdf (http://www.rigol.com/download/Oversea/DS/User_guide/DS2000_UserGuide_EN.pdf)
Begins with "   8. Vrms: the root mean square value on the whole waveform or the gating area."

Be aware that Gating Area, means the trace on the display, so you can see when I moved the trigger point to the left  and adjust the time base to show mostly just the +300mv of the Cal-signal the DS2000 will Calculate the RMS to be 283mv ,
See display, I hope that helps understand this scope
Note: I used the Fine Adjust of the timebase to get 39.00us/div

A nice description:
http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/ (http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 10, 2013, 03:39:44 pm

Put a HP 3478 multimeter on the probe test points of the Rigol 2072,

got 1.48 V on DC
got 1.48 V on AC

On the Rigol 2072,

got rms 1.48 on AC
got rms 2.08 on DC which is not correct

rms gives same Power in the same R, as a DC voltage of that value.
 

Thought so at start too. I.e. that the Rigol is not correct in that case. Your scope and DMM show exactly the same values as my gear. But I saw in square waves theory that a unipolar square wave with 50% duty cycle should have an RMS value of 0.707 times its full height voltage value (VRMSpulse=VpSqrtDuty). Maybe its just a matter of DMMs can't differentiate unipolar from bipolar squares, when the scope can see the difference when DC coupled? Can anybody run the same test in another brand DSO to compare behavior? Thanks.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 10, 2013, 03:50:56 pm

Be aware that Gating Area, means the trace on the display, so you can see when I moved the trigger point to the left  and adjust the time base to show mostly just the +300mv of the Cal-signal the DS2000 will Calculate the RMS to be 283mv ,
See display, I hope that helps understand this scope
Note: I used the Fine Adjust of the timebase to get 39.00us/div

A nice description:
http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/ (http://masteringelectronicsdesign.com/how-to-derive-the-rms-value-of-pulse-and-square-waveforms/)

Teneyes, thanks about the triggering info. The mastering electronics link confirms that a unipolar square (i.e. pulse) has more RMS than simply VP in link's final equation (5). A bipolar square has simply VP in RMS (10).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 11, 2013, 04:40:56 am
The probes look cool when fitted with black noses by the way. 8) I had those as spares, got them dirt cheap from Ebay a while ago. Push harder to hear a click for proper fit like with the originals.

(http://i218.photobucket.com/albums/cc53/salas_043/Picture001_zps4de2e375.jpg)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: cyr on February 11, 2013, 12:16:54 pm

Put a HP 3478 multimeter on the probe test points of the Rigol 2072,

got 1.48 V on DC
got 1.48 V on AC

On the Rigol 2072,

got rms 1.48 on AC
got rms 2.08 on DC which is not correct

rms gives same Power in the same R, as a DC voltage of that value.
 

Your DMM measured AC (RMS) and DC (average), but not AC+DC RMS which is what the scope is doing when DC-coupled.

AC+DC RMS is = sqrt(AC^2 + DC^2)

You can think if it this way, a square wave with no DC offset is always + or - Vp, so would generate Vp^2 / R watts in a resistor.
A "one-sided" square wave with the same amplitude has a voltage of 2*Vp half of the time (and zero the other half), so creates ((2Vp)^2 / R) / 2 = 2(Vp^2) / R watts on average.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 11, 2013, 01:06:34 pm
Aha, just tested with Mastech 8218 which has AC+DC true RMS mode. Same reading as the scope when DC coupled. :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 12, 2013, 06:20:02 pm
Does anyone happen to have an idea if / how I could make the scope add the two channels with an offset in time between them? Like, display Ch1(t) + Ch2(t+T), with T selectable?

It doesn't seem to be possible, but maybe there's some trick I overlooked? ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 12, 2013, 11:07:45 pm
Hey Teneyes, thanks for your effort!

No, nothing like that... I'm specifically interested in having the math function display Channel 1 plus Channel 2, but with different delays between the channels. I guess it's just not possible...
Thanks neverthereless ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 13, 2013, 01:14:40 am
I'm specifically interested in having the math function display Channel 1 plus Channel 2, but with different delays between the channels. I guess it's just not possible...
Thanks neverthereless ;)

I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to do - but it might be possible to use the delay trigger option to adjust the T between the two channels - if you can satisfy the edge trigger requirements. 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 14, 2013, 07:09:14 pm
NOTE: This DS2072 display data  was Manually Created to test the  DSO measuring system.
so I can better understand .my first DSO.

 THIS IS NOT A REAL SIGNAL

The display shows that the measurements are calculated/measured on the data that is displayed.

NOTE that the Sin(x)/x interpolation is  applied to the sample data points before measurements as shown by the "Vpp = 7.12V" , the peaks of the Sin ripples ( the data is a step of only 6.0V)

NOTE that the system knows only 2GSa/s is used , so cannot measure under 0.5ns thus rise time is measured as  "rise<500ps"

NOTE the difference among Max, Top, and Amp  measurements.

This maybe helpful to others to understand this DSO
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on February 14, 2013, 07:54:04 pm
Another thing now. The digital filter in the 1000 series was handy. Could limit the bandwidth very low, could notch out things etc. Brought ringing to pulse of course but for other stuff like susceptible power lines & motors (to fields, EMI or RFI, so to separate the original harmonic noise) was nice. Do you think that the lack of that menu in the 2000 is completely covered by Hi Res mode series averaging and large memory for instance? Any other settings suggestions for covering those needs?

P.S. Sorry if it has been mentioned before.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on February 15, 2013, 06:09:49 pm
NOTE: This DS2072 display data  was Manually Created to test the  DSO measuring system.
so I can better understand .my first DSO.


NOTE that the system knows only 2GSa/s is used , so cannot measure under 0.5ns thus rise time is measured as  "rise<500ps"

NOTE the difference among Max, Top, and Amp  measurements.

This maybe helpful to others to understand this DSO

Strange item, the signal seems to be able to look in the future,
before the signal goes up, ther is a reverse ringing, how does the signal
knows that some nSec later it has to go up..?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 15, 2013, 11:19:26 pm
One interesting thing I've learned while programming RUU is that the Rigol only displays 200 of the 256 possible ADC levels at any given time (mapped to the 8 vertical grid divisions) - even though the entire range is available via SCPI. My newest version of RUU (hopefully will post it tomorrow) has a 'Full ADC' switch - to allow seeing the full range.

Here is a clipped sine wave visible on the Rigol display:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39469)

And here is the same sine wave displayed in RUU (with 10 vertical divisions) at exactly the same time:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39471)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dougg on February 16, 2013, 04:52:03 pm
One interesting thing I've learned while programming RUU is that the Rigol only displays 200 of the 256 possible ADC levels at any given time (mapped to the 8 vertical grid divisions) - even though the entire range is available via SCPI. My newest version of RUU (hopefully will post it tomorrow) has a 'Full ADC' switch - to allow seeing the full range.

I own a Agilent DSO1024A scope which is made by Rigol. One frustrating thing when viewing a signal with a large dynamic range (amplitude) was that as soon as a peak jutted out of the viewing window (either the top or bottom) then all the measurements that were impacted suddenly became "*****". So a little "headroom" above and below the displayed window in which measurements could still be taken is a good thing IMO.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on February 16, 2013, 05:21:34 pm
One interesting thing I've learned while programming RUU is that the Rigol only displays 200 of the 256 possible ADC levels at any given time (mapped to the 8 vertical grid divisions) - even though the entire range is available via SCPI. My newest version of RUU (hopefully will post it tomorrow) has a 'Full ADC' switch - to allow seeing the full range.
I own a Agilent DSO1024A scope which is made by Rigol. One frustrating thing when viewing a signal with a large dynamic range (amplitude) was that as soon as a peak jutted out of the viewing window (either the top or bottom) then all the measurements that were impacted suddenly became "*****". So a little "headroom" above and below the displayed window in which measurements could still be taken is a good thing IMO.
The Rigol DS2000 will still measure and display the measurements if >top+25%  and < bot-25% , and what Marmad is proposing is only in his RUU. data utility program that the Display be extended to show the complete waveform , Great Idea  :) :) :)

When part of the trace is outside the extended range the waveform should show clipped as the measurements affected will show ****.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 16, 2013, 05:58:50 pm
I own a Agilent DSO1024A scope which is made by Rigol. One frustrating thing when viewing a signal with a large dynamic range (amplitude) was that as soon as a peak jutted out of the viewing window (either the top or bottom) then all the measurements that were impacted suddenly became "*****". So a little "headroom" above and below the displayed window in which measurements could still be taken is a good thing IMO.

Sure, on many low-end scopes the moment your waveform goes off the screen above or below, then all the measurements were inaccurate. So I'm guessing that's one of the reasons that they've done it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 16, 2013, 06:25:08 pm
Here is a 3D-plot of a frame array (RUU does this now ;) ) using the Rigol 8-division screen size - showing a square wave set to the boundaries of the screen. In the plot, each square represents two screen squares (i.e. 7 x 4 = 14 x 8 on the screen). Note the white streaks at the top - that is where the square is touching the screen top (and thus activating the white color in the CLUT):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39539)

Here is the same data plotted again - although this time using the full data set mapped to 10 divisions (7 x 5):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39541)
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on February 16, 2013, 07:39:37 pm
Here is a 3D-plot of a frame array (RUU does this now ;) ) ]

Man what a great idea to present frames on a 3d plot! 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 16, 2013, 07:48:22 pm
Man what a great idea to present frames on a 3d plot!
Thanks  :) - it's what I've been planning with RUU all along. But since the memory read bug, I had to devise a different scheme to get to my goal. Now the software can save, load, plot, and play 'frame arrays':

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39550)

Here's a 2D plot of frames of a voltage-increasing sine wave - using a black body color lookup table:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39546)

Here's the same frames plotted in 3D using a 2-color gradient on the Y-axis (Edit: Note the frame order is reversed in this plot - increasing away from the front plane):

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39548)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on February 16, 2013, 07:54:19 pm
Although I do not fully understand the pictures, they are cool. You must be a skilled programmer.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on February 16, 2013, 10:40:05 pm
@marmad
Nice pictures!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: branadic on February 16, 2013, 10:51:13 pm
Something I was wondering about after I have had a DS2202 for testing is:
They use the relabled LMH6518, why does Rigol not offer variable gain additional to the fixed vertical scale settings and for this reason the possibility to use the maximum of vertical resolution for any input signal? The LMH6518 has a gain step size of 2dB, which allows additional odd scales beside the standard historical 1 / 2 / 5 scaling.
Same functionallity is also available on my over 6 years old TDS5104B.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 17, 2013, 12:11:35 am
Do you mean fractional Volts/Div settings? You can get those by pushing, then rotating the Scale knob.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: branadic on February 17, 2013, 12:29:18 am
If you want to call it fractional.... in your case, is it a gain setting at the input amplifier or is it just zooming of already digitized data?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 17, 2013, 09:52:17 am
  Wow, great functionality and displays Marmad. :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+ :-+

Thanks, Teneyes.

Quote
Does that mean that the 3-D display function of RUU  can also display the extended data values up to FF hex, (+113.5%) and still detect and show the white streaks if value is = FF (hex) at the max?

Yes, the entire data set (0 - FFh) is saved in frame arrays and can always be plotted or played back with either 8 or 10 vertical divisions.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on February 17, 2013, 12:06:46 pm
Hi, marmad
Could you, please, test Video Syncronization Mode. It became my painful point after frustrating with SDS7102:
http://owon.forumup.com/about153-owon.html (http://owon.forumup.com/about153-owon.html)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on February 17, 2013, 12:15:49 pm
An other way to check the resolution, per division,
Put scale to 1 volt/dev, with nothing connected just noise ( picture 1)
Press stop, and set scale to 20 mV (picture 2).

On 1 volt div, with 8 div and 200 levels, one level is 40 mV
On picture 2 you cansee that a sample was indeed 40 mV

Strange anomely, on picture 2 there are spikes above the trigger level,
but when switches to dots, there are no dots above the trigger level ( picture 3)
So it looks like that the DSO is calculating more noise then there is..?

@ Marmad, nice software developed. But i think more explanation is needed.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 17, 2013, 02:30:12 pm
Strange anomely, on picture 2 there are spikes above the trigger level,
but when switches to dots, there are no dots above the trigger level ( picture 3)
So it looks like that the DSO is calculating more noise then there is..?

It has to do with the sin(x)x interpolation - the theoretical travel of the waveform in order to fit the given sample points. Of course, I think the interpolation begins to get 'fuzzy' at a very low level.

Quote
@ Marmad, nice software developed. But i think more explanation is needed.

Well, I hope to have it posted a little later today, so you can play around with it yourself  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 17, 2013, 09:36:41 pm
My first compiled 3D-plot: using the same set of frames showing the voltage-increasing sine wave in the images in my previous post.

Unfortunately, because of bandwidth restrictions on uploads here, I had to reduce the resolution for this post. There is a more detailed version here (http://daysalive.com/share/compiled_3D_plot.gif). Once it loads. it plays smoothly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EvgenyKV on February 18, 2013, 08:23:59 am
It has to do with the sin(x)x interpolation - the theoretical travel of the waveform in order to fit the given sample points. Of course, I think the interpolation begins to get 'fuzzy' at a very low level.

And the DS2000 series has sin(x)/x interpolation?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 18, 2013, 12:28:21 pm
Yes, definitely. sin(x)/x interpolation is the "mathematically correct" way to reconstruct a signal, so there isn't really a reasonable alternative. Plus, it's very powerful: If you guarantee that the highest frequency in the input signal is below the nyquist frequency (1 GHz for this scope), then it guarantees that the signal is reconstructed completely with perfect accuracy (minus bandwidth attenuation, of course -- it reconstructs the signal which arrives at the ADC, not what arrives at the input port).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 18, 2013, 01:59:59 pm
Yes, definitely. sin(x)/x interpolation is the "mathematically correct" way to reconstruct a signal, so there isn't really a reasonable alternative. Plus, it's very powerful: If you guarantee that the highest frequency in the input signal is below the nyquist frequency (1 GHz for this scope), then it guarantees that the signal is reconstructed completely with perfect accuracy (minus bandwidth attenuation, of course -- it reconstructs the signal which arrives at the ADC, not what arrives at the input port).

Well, it is might be notable that sin(x)/x interpolation is not mentioned anywhere in the documentation for the 2000 series (and perhaps not in that of the entire UltraVision line) - they only mention 'dots' or 'vectors'. As mentioned previously in this thread (and first pointed out by Rf-loop in his original thread), Rigol appears to have not done sin(x)/x correctly in the DS1000 series (even though it's called that in the DS1052E manual) - with the reconstructed waveform failing to sometimes pass through the sample points.

What that means in terms of the 2000 series I don't know - but I can report that as far as we currently know, the reconstructed waveform DOES correctly pass through the sample points as it should.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: scummos on February 18, 2013, 07:12:04 pm
Weird, I tought I had read it somewhere. But looking for it, I can't find it.

Anyways, I did quite a few tests already and the waveform always passes through the points. Also, my own sin(x)/x implementation creates curves which look very similar to those on the scope. ;)
So I'd say it's all fine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 18, 2013, 09:34:04 pm
Here are the same 700 Rigol  frames (of the sine wave with a rising voltage) made into a compiled 2D plot (using a 2-color gradient and transparency) - with each frame of the animated GIF equaling 175 plotted Rigol frames - stepping 15 frames forward on each GIF frame.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2013, 02:15:19 pm
As mentioned before in this thread, one thing that confuses some people is that the frame (segment) recording is based on a trigger occurring - not on time passing - as with other recording devices (video, sound, etc). This means that unless you have a perfectly regularly recurring trigger, the time between frames will vary. One of the weaknesses in the Rigol firmware is that there is no way to visualize this - playing back frames happens at a fixed rate - unrelated to the actual time tag of the frame.

The new version of RUU solves this problem in a number of different ways. As an example, take a look at a 3D plot (and the animated GIFs in the next post) of a series of frames recorded of a sine wave changing (with a glitch) into a lower frequency square wave. In the first set, the plot (and playback) of the frames happens just like on the Rigol - with an equidistant setting based on frame count:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39719)

In the second set, RUU plots the 3D graph (and plays back the recorded frames) with a changing scale set by the frame time - not count. You can see clearly that the frames are not evenly spaced - and that the sine wave portion (of time) is much smaller than the slower-triggering square wave section:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=39721)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2013, 02:20:43 pm
Here are the same frames again - playing back in RUU - first, with an equidistant time scale based on frame count (like the Rigol):
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2013, 02:24:42 pm
And here, with a time scale based on the frame time:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 19, 2013, 06:53:52 pm
Is RUU able to see if trigger was Auto or Normal?

Trigger data is not saved with frames - so no way for RUU to get that info from Rigol.

Quote
Like the display interval time, with RUU will traces displayed on frame time bases have a realtime slow motion feature.
 "Frame Time" slower, or faster clocking would be nice but still be relative timing,
 Slowing the faster ones, and speeding up the slow triggers but still able to see the skipped beats

I'm not 100% sure I understand you, but I think it does what you're asking for. The "@ XXXms" box in RUU sets the playback speed for frame arrays - the fastest possible setting is 15ms - or about 65 FPS. When you use the "Z Scale: Frame Time" setting in the Frame Array Plot/Play Settings Box, RUU will play all frames scaled from the "@ XXXms" setting as the minimum. So if you have "XXXms" set to 15ms - and a 40us frame is the fastest frame time in your frame array, then it will play at 15ms - but a 100us frame will play at 37.5ms (2.5 x 15ms).

Quote
Release Date??? ;)

Hopefully today - a little later  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: StubbornGreek on February 19, 2013, 11:37:53 pm
After reading through this thread and watching Dave's content, I couldn't help myself and ordered a DS2202. I'll let everyone know how it works out when it arrives.

Also, thank you to all whom have contributed to this thread - great read.
Title: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Chalky on February 20, 2013, 10:48:43 am
Am loving my new DS2072.  Customs sat on it for 3 weeks because they had a question, and the courier company claimed they had posted me a letter to tell me!  Ha ha - were the ponies busy?

Great scope, great screen, god it is nice to look at.  Auto set is easily confused, annoying but not critical.

Been using it for a bit of video signal debugging, found it to be very functional, but slightly fiddly to use some of the menus (the selection wheel sensitivity & acceleration could be better).  Compared to my Fluke Scopemeter 196c, I'd say I still prefer to Fluke for some stuff (because it's simpler), but overall I'd go for the Rigol as it has many more features (like holdoff - can't find that in my Fluke!).

Marmad - your software is awesome.  I love, and appreciate your efforts. I'm volunteering some of my time if you want some VB coding done, let me know.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 20, 2013, 03:20:18 pm
Marmad - your software is awesome.  I love, and appreciate your efforts. I'm volunteering some of my time if you want some VB coding done, let me know.

Thanks, Chalky... I appreciate it  :)  Perhaps I'll take you up on that offer later - right now my biggest problem is finding time to write documentation, but I think I'll just post the newest version with a bare-bones description and let people ask questions if they need to.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on February 20, 2013, 08:18:46 pm
2.0 has finally arrived!  :D  Read this for the latest documentation (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/msg194234/#msg194234) - and please leave feedback if you download and try it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on March 01, 2013, 12:33:05 am
DS2072 Build Quality,
A member PMed me and asked me how well is the Rigol built
Below is a Pic of me standing (on 1leg) on my DS2072
I am 120kg = 260Lbs, note foot size,
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on March 01, 2013, 07:08:47 am
Good test! Which standard?  ^-^
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: SeanB on March 01, 2013, 02:51:44 pm
So now Rigol makes an exercise step, in addition to the regular test equipment. ;)

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 06, 2013, 07:04:38 pm
Does the Rigol DS2000 series have an alternate trigger function? It would be useful for stable display of two signals with a bit different frequency... According to the manual, it seems that there is no alternate trigger even in the DS4000 and DS6000 series.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on March 06, 2013, 07:17:36 pm
Does the Rigol DS2000 series have an alternate trigger function? It would be useful for stable display of two signals with a bit different frequency... According to the manual, it seems that there is no alternate trigger even in the DS4000 and DS6000 series.
Definitely not in the DS2000. Not sure about the DS4000.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 06, 2013, 07:58:24 pm
Well, I noticed it somewhere, but I don't know exactly where... If you look to the DS2000, DS4000 or DS6000 manual, you will see that these three manuals are very similar, especially in the trigger section.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 06, 2013, 07:59:45 pm
Well, I expect that alternate trigger should be in any middle class oscilloscope, am I right?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on March 06, 2013, 08:27:39 pm
Well, I expect that alternate trigger should be in any middle class oscilloscope, am I right?

Clearly Rigol looked at the market - and the way many people are using DSOs nowadays - and decided to offer Windows, Pattern, RS232/UART, I²C, and SPI as standard triggers in place of the usual Alternate - with another 7 types available as options. It's up to you to decide if that's what you need or not.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 06, 2013, 08:32:11 pm
Yes, DS2000 might be good for people who work mainly with digital signals... They will never need the cursors in XY mode, for example.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on March 12, 2013, 12:36:17 pm
Yes, DS2000 might be good for people who work mainly with digital signals... They will never need the cursors in XY mode, for example.

You are right, I was not able to get a stable display of two independent signals...   What a bummer.   May be this is firmware fixable...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on March 12, 2013, 01:04:08 pm
I asked John South at Emona and he chased the latest firmware, and still no official date for the next update.

Dave.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 12, 2013, 01:36:43 pm
zibadun Ask member named Drieg, he will give you advice. :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: KuchateK on March 12, 2013, 02:49:54 pm
I asked John South at Emona and he chased the latest firmware, and still no official date for the next update.
Is it Rigol's choice to postpone your review until you'll get final firmware version?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: olsenn on March 12, 2013, 03:00:05 pm
Quote
Is it Rigol's choice to postpone your review until you'll get final firmware version?

I'm assuming Dave already has the latest firmware. Rigol is likely still developing the new cheese.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on March 12, 2013, 06:12:31 pm
I asked John South at Emona and he chased the latest firmware, and still no official date for the next update.

Dave.

Thanks for the update.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on March 12, 2013, 11:15:52 pm
If you look at the firmware changelog of Agilent DSOX2000, you will see that they released the firmware updates quite often, especially in beginning of 2011, when the scope was new. (I hope that they will allow the search function in future, the button is already there.  :) It is somewhere in this video... http://youtu.be/S62G0F4B1q0 (http://youtu.be/S62G0F4B1q0))
So dear Rigol guys, learn from Agilent, please.  :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Uffe on March 13, 2013, 11:24:42 am
Very nice review, thanks!  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 12:30:54 pm
Very nice review, thanks!  :-+
Thanks Uffe!  And on another subject -  I had a very nice unexpected surprise last week: all of my options are now official versions  :)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=42960)

No, no, it didn't happen via a bug or hack  ;)  but via the good graces of my dealer,  Petr Šmíd (drieg (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=343)) of Silcon Electronics (http://www.silcon.cz/index.php?route=common/home) - and Rigol Technologies.

Apparently several weeks ago, unbeknownst  to me, Petr had suggested to Rigol that they support/credit my continual development of UltraVision utility software (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/projects/software-tips-and-tricks-for-rigol-ds200040006000-ultravision-dsos/) by granting a full set of free options. They said they would think about it - and then he heard nothing about it for awhile. Then, while arranging other business with them last week, they suddenly sent the license code.

So - many thanks to Rigol for their show of support -- but most of all, my gratitude goes to Petr - who continually goes above and beyond the normal service one might expect. For me, this is just another example of why it's worthwhile to buy test and measurement equipment from someone you can/have develop(ed) a personal relationship with - even if it costs more money than the cheapest alternative.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 02, 2013, 12:44:35 pm
-  I had a very nice unexpected surprise last week: all of my options are now official versions  :)

Congratulations! It is a nice prize about your development work!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 12:47:40 pm
Congratulations! It is a nice prize about your development work!

Thanks EV! And perhaps it shows that Rigol starts to move more towards improving the relationship with their customers.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: grego on April 02, 2013, 12:52:52 pm
 :-+ for you marmad - it's nice that they show a little support for you!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: digsys on April 02, 2013, 12:57:54 pm
CONGRATS !! Great to see stuff like this still happens .. sure adds another NOTCH to deciding to go with Rigol.
Now I'm definitely buying one of their 4000 scopes.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dr.diesel on April 02, 2013, 01:01:15 pm
Now I'm definitely buying one of their 4000 scopes.

Likely you and I both my friend.  I'm going to wait until May with hopes they have one on display at the Dayton Ham Fest, I'd like to push a few buttons before I buy. 

If you end up with one be sure and post all about!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: digsys on April 02, 2013, 03:14:00 pm
Quote from: dr.diesel
If you end up with one be sure and post all about!
Well I'm slightly ahead of you. A colleague bought a DS4034 a couple months ago on my recommendation, and I loaned it for a
few weeks for a tough project. I was also handy to compare it against my older LeCroys and a cheapass SDS7102V Owon.
It IS a nice scope, but the LeCroys shitted all over it with triggering ability. I spent ages trying to get the Rigol to lock onto glitches
that I knew were there. The poor ol' Owon actually didn't fare too bad either, but it DID have some serious limitations in
triggering. For me, the Owon is damn handy to take out on HV EV jobs, because it's battery powered and damn cheap, so I don't care
if I pop it. But, I DO like the huge Rigol screen, and it has enough features to make the cheaper 100MHz version worthwhile for me.
BUT for my serious stuff, I'm on the lookout for a couple more older LeCroys.
The only new fly in the ointment is the GW Instek, which has suddenly become interesting (due to their recent IMPROVEMENT in
their communication skills). In all the years I bought their stuff, I never had a decent reply from sales / support, so I had given up
on them. Now the baskits seem to be a bit more friendly. I may wait to see how that pans out as well.
Guess May isn't that far away.


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 03:28:16 pm
The only new fly in the ointment is the GW Instek, which has suddenly become interesting (due to their recent IMPROVEMENT in
their communication skills). In all the years I bought their stuff, I never had a decent reply from sales / support, so I had given up
on them. Now the baskits seem to be a bit more friendly. I may wait to see how that pans out as well.
Guess May isn't that far away.

Yes, it will be interesting to see Rigol's response to Instek's entry into this particular price range. They have priced their 2-channel 2000As exactly the same as Rigol's DS2000 prices   ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 02, 2013, 03:37:08 pm
 :-+  https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gds-2000a-new-economic-oscilloscope-by-gw-instek-comes-to-market/ (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/gds-2000a-new-economic-oscilloscope-by-gw-instek-comes-to-market/)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 02, 2013, 03:41:03 pm
Anyway, is Rigol ever going to release the new DS2000 firmware, as they promised in november 2012, or so?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 03:50:07 pm
Anyway, is Rigol ever going to release the new DS2000 firmware, as they promised in november 2012, or so?

As mentioned elsewhere, the firmware is stable - and all of the operational bugs are minor. The only exception is when trying to read memory out of the scope - which can be, I admit, a problem for me in terms of the software I'm writing for it - but it doesn't stop me from using the scope in my day-to-day paid work in any way. I think they feel it's the next major update and they're taking their time with it to avoid adding new bugs. But I'm not sure what difference that makes to you - and why you keep posting this question over and over?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 04:30:11 pm
@Marmad ,Congrats on your options,
You have helped many owners and supported Rigol's DS2000 & more.
You well deserve it  :-+ :-+ :-+.   and maybe 200 MHz , later. 
Good to see your good work rewarded.   10 Tulip rating  ;)

Thanks Teneyes, I really appreciate it. Now I've gotten support from both you and Rigol (and Petr)  ;D  BTW, half of the 'support' you gave me went to support Wikipedia - so you've supported them too  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 02, 2013, 05:06:41 pm
Anyway, is Rigol ever going to release the new DS2000 firmware, as they promised in november 2012, or so?
and why you keep posting this question over and over?
Maybe because Dave will do a review when the new firmware is released. I am looking forward to it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: ve7xen on April 02, 2013, 07:43:56 pm
Nice work marmad on acquiring those Offcial option codes ;).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 07:58:49 pm
Nice work marmad on acquiring those Offcial option codes ;).

Thanks ve7xen - although it was just one code that did them all  :) 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: robrenz on April 02, 2013, 08:06:44 pm
They got off cheap, they should send you a 4000 series with all the options on for all the work you have done :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 02, 2013, 08:34:12 pm
They got off cheap, they should send you a 4000 series with all the options on for all the work you have done :-+

Agreed! ;D   Thanks, I appreciate it - but in any case, I'm having fun working on it when I have the time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 03, 2013, 04:57:37 pm
Hi Guys,

I did some measurements with DS2102 today and the scope overshoot calculation seems strange,
my switching regulator is having huge ringings but definitely they are not not 47%?
Any thoughts.

Best Regards
Dimitar
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 03, 2013, 10:25:04 pm
Oh do they mean 0.47V instead of 47% ? :)
Dimitar
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: TP on April 04, 2013, 07:48:52 pm
I don't see any transition on screen from which to measure the overshoot.  I thought overshoot was how much a step rise overshoots the final level, i.e. how much a 5V square wave overshoots 5V.  Your trace has no transition, just some ringing on a steady level.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 04, 2013, 08:58:11 pm
Hi TP,

Well in the manual it is just written:
"9. Overshoot: the ratio of the difference of the maximum value and top value of the waveform to the amplitude value."
So I have decided it can be generalized for my ringings. But Apparently the documentation is not fully correct and the scope
is searching the positive edge in order to do the calculations. As the name suggests actually :)

I have confirmed that in case of periodic square wave the Overshoot is showing the value properly.

Thanks
Dimitar
Title: DSOs & Nyquist or "just trusting your dso screen is true, is the path to ruin."
Post by: colinbeeforth on April 09, 2013, 05:15:46 pm

Hi, on page 44, scummos said:

"Yes, definitely. sin(x)/x interpolation is the "mathematically correct" way to reconstruct a signal, so there isn't really a reasonable alternative"

I have no wish to offend, but must humbly disagree, linear interpolation is a very suitable alternative, either that or LeCroy got it all wrong. (I've owned a 9310M for over 10 years - they got it right!)

The 93xx series scopes use linear interpolation, and maybe others, that I'm unaware of.  It's simple, and warns you clearly when you are at risk of believing the nonsense on the screen.  When an acquired waveform looks spikey (visually very distinctive), there are insufficient samples to make an intelligent guess about the incoming waveform.  Unlike an analogue scope, with any sampling dso, you cannot know what happened to the waveform between samples.  There is insufficient evidence between samples to even guess.

Yeah, you can spout Nyquist and sampling theory, but the honest truth is that between samples, we are left ignorant.  Using sinx/x interpolation, a dso reconstructs sine like curves through the real data points, however, if it draws any line that deviates from a straight line, the dso is guessing at what the input waveform might be.  What's that?  Your cheeks flush with anger, "according to Nyquist..."  The Nyquist criteria demand that for sinx/x reconstruction to be valid, there must not be any sine component exceeding half the sampling frequency.  Now, tell me how you can ensure that difficult requirement.  Yes you say, a totally brick wall filter at half sample rate in the front end.  Show me any scope that has a "Switch Nyquist Filter On" button.  Since the sample rate varies dramatically over the range of timebase settings, the Nyquist filter must shift its corner frequency from a few Hertz to maybe 500MHz - and that has to be brick wall filter so it reduces any sine component more than 1/2 sample rate, and it must recuce it below the minimum discernible level (8 bit= -48dB from adc fullscale).  Nyquist is a fine mathematical concept but <totally irrelevant> to modern dsos.

Show me the Nyquist filter on any dso and I'll accept it's sinx/x interpolation.  The theory works neatly for a theoretical dso, but isn't relevant to any scope on the market today - except perhaps for audio/vibration fft analysers, they often have proper Nyquist filters, and so sinx/x is valid.

A wide range lab or workbench dso can never have a Nyquist filter broad enough to validate sinx/x across its timebase range- it's not impossible, but very hard to build & and impossibly expensive.  Linear interpolation is also somewhat invalid, but so long as you have 10 to 20 samples for one cycle of the highest sine component, it works well enough.  Linear interpolation is also intrinsically safe, since it clearly alerts the user if undersampling occurs - waveforms go spikey.

And to the group member finding noise on the power supply, it looks like there are roughly 3 sinewaves in 20 nS, so that is around 150MHz, a signal like that is very likely to be rf pickup, not in your power supply.  Even a few inches of ground lead will serve as an antenna.  The built in frequency counter saying 8 something MHz is spurious.

Cheers, Colin


Title: Re: DSOs & Nyquist or "just trusting your dso screen is true, is the path to ruin."
Post by: marmad on April 09, 2013, 05:28:44 pm
I have no wish to offend, but must humbly disagree, linear interpolation is a very suitable alternative, either that or LeCroy got it all wrong. (I've owned a 9310M for over 10 years - they got it right!)
Hi Colin,

Thanks for your post. As discussed in another thread here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/does-agilent-x3000-series-use-linear-or-sin-xx-interpolation/msg213843/#msg213843) recently, one annoying thing about Rigol is the lack of written information about exactly what they're doing. They're clearly using sin(x)/x much of the time (when you have 'vectors' chosen - which is what the menu item is called) but perhaps they're using linear interpolation below a certain number of sample points per division? Here are three different images from (under)sampling a 5MHz sine and square wave (~15ns rise time) at 20MHz, 50MHz, and 100MHz. I'm far from an expert on the subject, but I'm not sure if the 20MSa/s image accurately portrays sin(x)/x interpolation.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 11, 2013, 10:20:18 am
Take the following with a grain of Rigol salt  ;)  but supposedly the new DS2000 firmware is due out by the end of this week. Of course, Rigol has mentioned - then ignored - other release dates, so it might not happen - but the specificity of it makes me think it will be fairly soon.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on April 11, 2013, 10:36:34 am
Taken with the proverbial grain... But thanks for keeping us up to date anyway Marmad :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 11, 2013, 10:49:25 am
Take the following with a grain of Rigol salt  ;)  but supposedly the new DS2000 firmware is due out by the end of this week.

I've heard that every week since before xmas  :-DD
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 11, 2013, 11:03:17 am
I've heard that every week since before xmas  :-DD

Oh well, it's the first time Drieg has told me a week; the last date he reported that Rigol told him was around the spring festival (Feb. 10th) - so... well, what can I say? Question your source  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 11, 2013, 11:45:48 am
 ;D :P :P :-+
Title: DSO interpolation and sampling
Post by: colinbeeforth on April 11, 2013, 01:38:13 pm

Hi marmad,

thanks for posting the pictures.  I see what you mean.  The spikey looking waveform demonstrates what undersampling looks like when using linear interpolation.  Yet other pictures I've seen on this thread demonstrate sinx/x interpolation on the DS2000 series.  It's very hard to understand which interpolation is being used when.

One of the cute things my LeCroy does (amongst many) is whenever the number of data samples per centimetre drops below 10 or so points, each individual data point is highlighted, so you can see what data points the linear interpolation is making its way through.  Without having to press buttons, or interpret numbers, or switch modes, the scope immediately and visually alerts you to the fact that it is close to undersampling.  Many scopes have an option to show dots or vectors.  But if sinx/x keeps the waveform looking rounded and believable, you don't know when to switch to dot mode to check for undersampling.

The lack of solid information in manuals seems to be a common problem with Chinese scopes.  I get the feeling that the Chinese manufacturers are completely paranoid about competition and the theft of their ideas.  They act like they are so fearful of copying that they won't even let their purchaser know how the scope works.  Most of the low cost DSOs I've had the misfortune waste time on are so poor that there's nothing worth stealing!  I'm delighted to see Rigol making  a big leap in construction quality and design with their new scopes.  I hope their development continues.  It's always a question though, when competition drives down prices, can any manufacturer then afford to provide the sort of support and software fixes that such heavily software based  scopes seem to need?  It will be interesting to see how it turns out.

Cheers, Colin
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jpb on April 11, 2013, 02:07:41 pm
I have a LeCroy WaveJet which only does linear interpolation, there is no Sin(x)/x option, so I'm pleased to see colinbeeforth's posts.

For normal captures I find I don't need interpolation anyway (it may be different when zooming in by a large factor), even at 1nsec a division, if I set the memory depth for 500 points it shows a thousand curves overlayed but as the trigger point is slightly different on each curve the dots are filled in without interpolation being needed. This can also be done for a single curve by turning Equivalent Time capture on.

The above relies on repetitive wave forms but then so does Sin(x)/x interpolation.

The one area where it might be nice is when zooming given that the WaveJet has "only" 500K of memory and not multi megabytes - I've not used the scope enough to know if this is a practical issue or not.
Title: Re: DSO interpolation and sampling
Post by: marmad on April 11, 2013, 02:38:22 pm
One of the cute things my LeCroy does (amongst many) is whenever the number of data samples per centimetre drops below 10 or so points, each individual data point is highlighted, so you can see what data points the linear interpolation is making its way through.  Without having to press buttons, or interpret numbers, or switch modes, the scope immediately and visually alerts you to the fact that it is close to undersampling.
That's a great idea - and I think it would be fairly easy to implement in a DSO with intensity grading. Maybe I'll try to put it into a future version of the control software I'm writing.

Quote
The lack of solid information in manuals seems to be a common problem with Chinese scopes.  I get the feeling that the Chinese manufacturers are completely paranoid about competition and the theft of their ideas.  They act like they are so fearful of copying that they won't even let their purchaser know how the scope works.
Perhaps this is part of the problem, but I get the sense that it also has to do with providing 'extras' (more $ outlay for them) above and beyond what is strictly required to manufacture and sell the item.  The same reason that most (all?) PC software for Chinese-made test equipment is crap.

The one area where it might be nice is when zooming given that the WaveJet has "only" 500K of memory and not multi megabytes - I've not used the scope enough to know if this is a practical issue or not.
I think the other thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/does-agilent-x3000-series-use-linear-or-sin-xx-interpolation/msg213843/#msg213843) discussing this shows that it's definitely a good feature to have when zooming at slower sample rates.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 11, 2013, 07:36:25 pm
Attached is an unedited and unsorted text file containing all of the SCPI variables (top paragraph) and commands (bottom paragraph) culled from the DS2000 firmware. The reason it's unsorted is because it makes it a bit easier to tell if a command is a sub-command (for example, all of the sub-commands of the :SYSTEM command follow each other, like :SYSTEM:ETIMpedence? [External Trigger impedance])

There is tons of stuff which is undocumented and/or commands that normally belong to the DS4000 series. I've tried only a small percentage of them - and of course, it's unlikely that any of these will unlock hidden features - but you never know. It's interesting to note that the DSO appears to respond to all of the commands - even if it won't let you change the settings. For example, when I query the DSO with a command that belongs to the DS4000:
:CHAN1:IMPedance?
It returns:
OMEG  (which means 1M)
But if I try to change it:
:CHAN1:IMPedance FIFTY
I get an "Invalid Input" message on the DSO screen.

One internal variable I was able to change is another feature which is on the DS4000 - the reference clock. The DS4000 can output the internal 10 MHz sample clock from a BNC connector at the rear panel - or accept an external 10 MHz clock there to synchronize multiple oscilloscopes. The command
:SYST:RCLOCK COUT (or CINT)
seems to change the variable internally on the DS2000 - although, of course, we don't have the BNC connector which brings the output/input from/to the mainboard.

There is lots of interesting stuff here - like the variables named D0 - D15 - clearly meant for an LA module. I've just started studying the file myself - but one thing I noticed quickly is the command WSAVe - which is a command for saving recorded frames. I tried to figure out the syntax to see if I could get it to work (there is a sub-command LOCation - which clearly goes with it) but either I couldn't find the correct syntax or - more likely - it's still unimplemented.

Anyway, check it out - it's very interesting - and please post back here if you find a hidden gem - or manage to get the DSO to do something strange  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Kaptein QK on April 11, 2013, 08:44:29 pm
Haha, I think many systems accepts that command! :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: wb3fsr on April 11, 2013, 11:04:12 pm
File with the SCPI variables  and commands (

Not in the File  :SYSTEM:BRICk=on

But it happens ;D |O

 :scared: Teneyes, That's not funny, I live in Brick! Really I do...  :-BROKE

Regards,

PeterV
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: John South on April 12, 2013, 03:23:02 am
Hi All - I have received the new official release firmware from Rigol today. It seems to fix some bugs and make general operation smoother. I don't currently have a list of changes but will try to find out. I'll be sending Dave a copy today. If you do update you have to follow the below method - Thanks Marmad hope you don't mind me doing a copy and paste.

Ok back to have a play and see what is fixed/changed


You do this by using two hands when booting up - one thumb on the 'Power On' switch - one thumb on the 'Help' button. When you press 'Power On', all of the scope LEDs will light for ONE SECOND - during that brief period, you must PRESS AND LET GO of the 'Help' button. It can be a little tricky, but if it works, bootup will stop before the Rigol logo with the 'SINGLE' button lit (if it doesn't, turn off power and try again until you get it). Then insert the USB stick with the file on it. The CH1 LED will flash as the DSO loads the file.

Once updating is finished, several of the LEDs will light up - and all flashing, etc. will stop. That's it! Remove the USB stick and reboot, and check your firmware version using the method listed above
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:56:27 am
Hi All - I have received the new official release firmware from Rigol today. It seems to fix some bugs and make general operation smoother. I don't currently have a list of changes but will try to find out. I'll be sending Dave a copy today. If you do update you have to follow the below method - Thanks Marmad hope you don't mind me doing a copy and paste.

Good to hear, John - Thanks for the post!  :)  I'm glad the info that I got from Petr (drieg) about the impending release was accurate. Personally, my main concern is that they've fixed the sample memory reading problem - but I'll be curious how many the bugs listed on the first page of this thread they've managed to get rid of.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 04:05:11 am
I don't currently have a list of changes but will try to find out. I'll be sending Dave a copy today. If you do update you have to follow the below method

BTW, John, is it possible to get a copy of the FW via you - or best we arrange it through our own respective dealers?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: John South on April 12, 2013, 07:25:47 am
Hi Marmad - best you get it through your respective dealers in case of any issues caused . If that's not possible let me know and I'm sure something can be arranged.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 11:02:22 am
* NEW FIRMWARE FOR DS2000: FW v.01.00.00.03 *

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=43911)

Over the last couple of months we've been giving Rigol the occasional hard time for being late with the promised firmware update. Well, it's now here - and although, after having tested it for an hour or so, I haven't seen any new features - Rigol appears to have gone down our bug list (from Page 1 of this thread (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158659/#msg158659)) and killed (most of) them one by one. All credit to Rigol - they have clearly responded to the complaints we've posted here - and though I haven't tested enough to be absolutely sure, I can only find one two remaining bugs from the list that they didn't get yet (Edit: As Dave pointed out - there is also still the update 'bug'; which makes it slightly complicated to update the FW [the GUI menu option doesn't work] - but that wasn't in the original list since it was assumed to be gone) .

Here is the list again from FW v.00.01.00.05 - and what appears to be fixed in FW v.01.00.00.03:

1) The scope appears to first clear the display then restart the sweep whenever moving the waveform vertically, changing the vertical or horizontal scale, moving trigger position, turning on/off channels, etc.

Fixed!! Yay, they are no longer clearing the waveform before moving it horizontally or vertically. It feels much more responsive.

2) The way the scope handles intensity grading in delayed sweep mode needs some work - it doesn't appear to be the same as if you just stop the sweep and zoom in via the horizontal scale.

Fixed

3) If you use the FINE horizontal scale adjust at scales >=20ms (Press -> [Horizontal] Menu -> ScaleAdjust -> Fine), the max/min horizontal trigger position becomes locked to the next lower major division*10/14 - instead of staying 10x/14x of whatever the actual setting is.

Fixed

4) When you turn on tracking cursors (if all cursors off), the measurement window doesn't appear.

Fixed

5) X-Y channels are reversed.

Fixed

6) Self-calibration will automatically expire any trial options currently running.

Not fixed.

7) AUTO routine sometimes fails to latch onto signals.

Unknown - the AUTO routine on every DSO that I've used fails sometimes. In any case, it was never a problem for me, so I'll let someone else test it.

8 ) The 'repeat' (looping) playback of frames recorded in Record Open mode doesn't seem to work correctly (hardly ever).

Fixed

9) There is a major bug involving the transfer of sample memory between the DSO and the PC - which you normally do using VISA and SCPI commands.

Fixed

10) There is a bug involving the reading of WFM files into DSO memory.

Fixed

11) Anti-Aliasing does not return to ON when the DSO is powered-up, even if the Menu setting shows it as "ON".

Fixed

12) A bug confined to the menu selection of Channel 1 = ON and Trigger = External keeps the sample rate stuck at 1G SA/s (instead of raising to 2G Sa/s - as it should be).

Fixed

13) When using both channels and attempting to read 7MB (or 28MB) sample depths out of the scope, the DSO transfers the wrong number of bytes (something 'random' between 6.9 - 7MB (or 27 - 28MB)).

Not fixed.

Good job, Rigol! Now, can you please add Save/Load for Recorded Frames and some other new features?  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on April 12, 2013, 11:47:24 am
Finally I got it too!
Good to hear, that the time and effort invested into reporting/confirming this buglist to/with Rigol yielded results :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 11:56:06 am
Congrats Marmad! This is very good result, if only one bug is not corrected!  :) ;D :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 12, 2013, 12:26:19 pm
Here is the list again from FW v.00.01.00.05 - and what appears to be fixed in FW v.01.00.00.03:

Nice work!  :-+
But what the heck are Rigol doing with their serial number system, can it get any more confusing?

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 12:30:42 pm
Nice work!  :-+
But what the heck are Rigol doing with their serial number system, can it get any more confusing?

LOL - yes! And exactly how many decimal digits of version number do they actually need? Will this series be manufactured for the next 100 years?  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 12:40:34 pm
* NEW FIRMWARE FOR DS2000: FW v.01.00.00.03 *

I've been wondering about the firmware for these scopes since I got interested in buying one, but I've never seen on their site where the firmware is available for download. All I can find is a document that tells you how to install the firmware.

Where are the firmware updates located at the Rigol website?  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 12:55:33 pm
Where are the firmware updates located at the Rigol website?  :-//

I've never looked for FW updates at their website (always got it from my dealer or other users), but from what I understand, this is one area where Rigol could stand improvement (as well as in documentation, communication, etc. - the typical weak points of Chinese companies).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 01:01:07 pm
I've never looked for FW updates at their website (always got it from my dealer or other users), ...

What dealers provide the firmware?

How do other users get it?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Rednaxela on April 12, 2013, 01:12:11 pm
Huh, neat. After seeing Dave's video comparing the DS2000 series and DS1000 series I've been tempted to get a DS2072, but now after hearing about this firmware update I'm even more tempted to get a DS2072 now...

Thanks for checking this out Marmad :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 12, 2013, 01:14:52 pm
I've never looked for FW updates at their website (always got it from my dealer or other users), but from what I understand, this is one area where Rigol could stand improvement (as well as in documentation, communication, etc. - the typical weak points of Chinese companies).

Rigol have remarked to me (not to be taken as an official reason I suppose) that they didn't think their firmware update process is robust enough yet to encourage every man and his dog to attempt it. i.e. they don't want a flood of bricked scopes or support calls coming through.
They are certainly aware of how the lack of downloadable firmware is a not a good look for them, and are working on on it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 12, 2013, 01:17:29 pm
What dealers provide the firmware?

The one you bought it from should, if they are any good.

Quote
How do other users get it?

If you ask on here, the firmware fairy might pay you a visit  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on April 12, 2013, 01:17:46 pm
They are certainly aware of how the lack of downloadable firmware is a not a good look for them, and are working on on it.

Come-on Rigol... It only takes 10 minutes to put a few files on a server with a brick warning next to it :D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 12, 2013, 01:20:01 pm
Come-on Rigol... It only takes 10 minutes to put a few files on a server with a brick warning next to it :D

Problem is, people never read anything  ::)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 01:20:54 pm
Rigol have remarked to me (not to be taken as an official reason I suppose) that they didn't think their firmware update process is robust enough yet to encourage every man and his dog to attempt it. i.e. they don't want a flood of bricked scopes or support calls coming through.
They are certainly aware of how the lack of downloadable firmware is a not a good look for them, and are working on on it.

Good point, Dave. I thought they had fixed this bug in FW 01.00.05 (not being able to update from the GUI menu) - but apparently not. It's rather complicated using the boot-loader, and even though we've posted the instructions (and warning) in this thread (and other threads in the forum as well), many people have locked up their scopes. I'll have to add this back into the bug list on page 1 once it's revised.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 01:24:05 pm
OK thanks guys. I was afraid I was just to dumb to locate it.

I wrote Rigol about it this morning let's see if I get a response.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 01:54:14 pm
OK, new firmware is intalled!   :) :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on April 12, 2013, 02:08:19 pm
Great work by Marmad for investigating and providing a list of bugs for the ds2000 scope. Also to my delight Rigol has responded by fixing a lot of reported issues. It makes me even more confident of buying a DS2102 very soon :)

Again, great work by Marmad and Rigol.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 12, 2013, 02:10:39 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 02:28:49 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

What's the matter, Wim - afraid you won't be able to downgrade?  ;)  That's the main question - and I haven't tried it yet; still hoping Drieg will answer the question before I take the risk  ;D  I suspect, because of the problems with the update procedure - that it's still possible to downgrade back to 05.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 12, 2013, 02:36:17 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

What's the matter, Wim - afraid you won't be able to downgrade?  ;)  That's the main question - and I haven't tried it yet; still hoping Drieg will answer the question before I take the risk  ;D  I suspect, because of the problems with the update procedure - that it's still possible to downgrade back to 05.


Maybe.... :palm:


There are two loaders, i understand, one in the basic rom, and one in the firmware, so the buggy loader was
in the firmware, which only can be repaired in the latest version, so the maybe in the new version they have
repaired the loader, but you can only test that on the next next version


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on April 12, 2013, 02:36:22 pm
We now have many more option times for the screen saver too :)
Title: Rigol Firmware update IS NOT RELEASED to the USA yet
Post by: wb3fsr on April 12, 2013, 02:37:15 pm
Just spoke with Rick @ Tequipment who are located no more than five miles from me here on the Jersey Shore.

Rick contacted Rigol N/A and the word is: Not released to the US yet 'It's coming around the World' and it may take up to 30 days before we see it. 

Registered owners will receive an email blast when it's released for your geolocation.

Regards,

PeterV [REN] WB3FSR
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: quarks on April 12, 2013, 02:37:59 pm
Thanks a lot to marmad for his great Review and helpful information on this thread!!!

I am looking for a new scope and thanks to this topic I am considering the DS2000 series.
I have not yet decided if the higher prices for the DS2102/2202 models are worth to closer look at them.
Besides the obvious higher bandwidth and the better probes, are there any helpful advantages/things to take in consideration?

Title: Re: Rigol Firmware update IS NOT RELEASED to the USA yet
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 02:45:22 pm
Just spoke with Rick @ Tequipment who are located no more than five miles from me here on the Jersey Shore.

Rick contacted Rigol N/A and the word is: Not released to the US yet 'It's coming around the World' and it may take up to 30 days before we see it. 

Registered owners will receive an email blast when it's released for your geolocation.

Regards,

PeterV [REN] WB3FSR

Ha! It goes around the world in about 5 minutes.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: orbiter on April 12, 2013, 02:48:36 pm
Quote
Ha! It goes around the world in about 5 minutes.  ;D

Exactly :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 02:49:02 pm
I am looking for a new scope and thanks to this topic I am considering the DS2000 series.
I have not yet decided if the higher prices for the DS2102/2202 models are worth to closer look at them.
Besides the obvious higher bandwidth and the better probes, are there any helpful advantages/things to take in consideration?

Thanks for your kind words. The probes are the same (RP-3300: 350MHz @ 10x) for all the models - so it's really just a bandwidth issue (plus you get the 2ns timebase setting in the DS2202).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: wb3fsr on April 12, 2013, 02:49:13 pm
Hi Mark,

Maybe they disabled their RTC...  :palm:

Oh, they have a different calendar.

PeterV
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 02:53:04 pm
Dear firmware fairy, please visit.   :-/O

Updated (per marmad):  :scared:  :scared:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 02:55:56 pm
Dear firmware fairy, please visit.   :-/O

Actually, Vasily, I think this is the correct dance to call the fairy:  :scared:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: drieg on April 12, 2013, 02:58:40 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

What's the matter, Wim - afraid you won't be able to downgrade?  ;)  That's the main question - and I haven't tried it yet; still hoping Drieg will answer the question before I take the risk  ;D  I suspect, because of the problems with the update procedure - that it's still possible to downgrade back to 05.

So far, I've seen two versions of DS2 bootloader and none of them was checking the firmware version, so if you use bootloader update method with HELP button, you should be able to downgrade. The bootloader remains unchanged after this FW uprade...

For the FW update itself - please use the bootloader method with HELP button described here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/blog-specific/eevblog-369-rigol-ds2000-oscilloscope-playing-around/msg153700/#msg153700).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:00:37 pm
Maybe they disabled their RTC...  :palm:

You mean the clock for trial options?

Quote
Oh, they have a different calendar.

Huh? How do you mean?

Doh! ...finally got the joke  :-[   ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:02:32 pm
Updated (per marmad):  :scared:  :scared:

You should now have email fairymail  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 03:25:03 pm
the dance worked, thanks

Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

It doesn't work on the new firmware. "File version doesn't support!".   

I guess kind of like  "All your bases are belong to us!"  >:D
Title: Re: Rigol Firmware update IS NOT RELEASED to the USA yet
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:26:03 pm
Rick contacted Rigol N/A and the word is: Not released to the US yet 'It's coming around the World' and it may take up to 30 days before we see it. 

Well, I hate to break it to Rigol NA, but somehow it went from Australia to the EU to NA in 1 day.  ;D  I'm afraid all of us current owners (early adopters that we were) had been waiting too long already for this to wait anymore than a single day. If there had been a way to make it upgrade all of our DSOs simultaneously - we would have figured it out.  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:30:47 pm
Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

It doesn't work on the new firmware. "File version doesn't support!".   

Well, honestly, it was being posted here exactly what was happening with the setup files (along with the files themselves) - what do you think? But still, if they have just altered the file system a bit, you might be able to do the same thing again.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 03:35:15 pm
Firmware fairy has been here too!

:scared:  :scared:  :scared:  :scared:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 12, 2013, 03:39:14 pm
the dance worked, thanks

Can someone with 2072 and new software test this setup file..

This setup file gives a DS2072 a   2 nSec   timebase..

It doesn't work on the new firmware. "File version doesn't support!".   

I guess kind of like  "All your bases are belong to us!"  >:D

So then also your former setups, if ever used wont work anymore.
They changed the layout.

Did you use any setup files before, or other saved files, that wont work..??
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:45:30 pm
So then also your former setups, if ever used wont work anymore.
They changed the layout.

Did you use any setup files before, or other saved files, that wont work..??

Yes, they've changed the file structure for setup files. I tried loading a few different ones but it doesn't work. But, Wim, why don't you just upgrade and check it out? I'm sure you can downgrade after - when I insert FW 05 on a USB stick, the message on the screen says something like "Older firmware detected - Proceed to downgrade?"
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 03:49:26 pm
Saved picture looks like this now:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 03:51:05 pm

So then also your former setups, if ever used wont work anymore.
They changed the layout.

Did you use any setup files before, or other saved files, that wont work..??

the 2ns one worked on the old fw. sorry I did not save any other setups.  If you have an old setup from 2072 I'd give it a try.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 03:54:03 pm
Saved picture looks like this now:

Wow, I hadn't noticed that - and I even captured an image to crop the System Info box for the initial bug post. That seems kind of a weird change to me - I'll have to edit the code in RUU to clip that off the top.

Why would I want my serial number attached to an image I'm going to presumably show others? Stupid.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 04:00:44 pm

Why would I want my serial number attached to an image I'm going to presumably show others? Stupid.

They could have put that info into Exif header like all the digital cameras do...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 04:24:08 pm
Here is a new bug. I noticed that rise time and fall time are the same on the earlier picture. Here is picture saved with RUU. It is on track auto mode. It is still not possible to save on track manual mode either with this firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: xrunner on April 12, 2013, 04:24:37 pm
Well, they wrote back fast -

*****

Hi,
To answer your question, we are planning to add that later but not yet. I'd say that today we only post and notify customers of important updates. Smaller updates we supply on a request basis. At any time you can call/email in and get the latest from us as long as there is an appropriate new version.

Thanks.
Steve

--
Steve Barfield
(NN5U)
Rigol Technologies, Inc.
7401 First Place
Suite N
Oakwood Village, OH 44146
440.232.4488 x114 (Office)
877.4RIGOL1 x114 (Toll Free)
440.232.4499 (fax)
404.374.5902 (Cell)
steve_barfield@rigoltech.com
www.rigolna.com (http://www.rigolna.com)
 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 05:35:49 pm
I installed back the old firmware. This rise time bug is so bad that I am waiting next update.  :( :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 12, 2013, 06:48:58 pm
Well, what's the problem with the rise time bug? I don't understand it...
OK, it is an auto measurement fail.  :--
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 07:28:33 pm
Well, what's the problem with the rise time bug? I don't understand it...

mine does not have this problem.  also it stopped printing S/N and time on top of the pictures

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bmwnomad on April 12, 2013, 08:03:36 pm
I foolishly did a self-cal on my new Rigol DS2072.  I had thought that version .05 of the software (as shipped) fixed the losing the trial options bug, sadly reading back through this thread I discovered the bug is still there. 

Has a workaround been discovered to reenable the trials?  I think I still had over 2000 minutes left on them.  I have an email into Tequipment.net to see if they can be of any assistance.  Or am I just SOL?

Thanks,
Steve
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 08:41:44 pm
also it stopped printing S/N and time on top of the pictures

What caused it to stop - or - how many saves did you do before it stopped?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 08:48:16 pm
I intalled back the new firmware. In the picture is antisymmetric ramp wave. Rise time and fall time are both 160 ns!  |O |O :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 08:50:32 pm
I intalled back the new firmware. In the picture is antisymmetric ramp wave. Rise time and fall time are both 160 ns!  |O |O :-//

Yes, I confirmed the bug. I think the Rise time is actually just the Fall time repeated. In fact, if you chose either Rising Edge or Falling Edge with Auto cursor - it goes to the same edge.

It seems like it might be an easy bug to fix (pointer problem, etc) - I wonder if we can get Rigol to do it quickly?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 08:52:44 pm
I closed the scope and started it again and now it works correctly!!!!  :-+ :-+ :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 08:53:42 pm
I intalled back the new firmware. In the picture is antisymmetric ramp wave. Rise time and fall time are both 160 ns!  |O |O :-//

very strange, the only difference is that yours is 2202.  I've tried again and it shows different raise/fall.  Where does it place the markers if you switch to fall mode?

BTW, can you please post your 2ns setup file, I'll see if it works here with raise/fall times  ;) ;)



What caused it to stop - or - how many saves did you do before it stopped?

Didn't do anything. just powered off/on and no more header.  gremlins...
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 08:54:15 pm
I closed the scope and started it again and now it works correctly!!!!  :-+ :-+ :-+

That's no solution. I've had my DSO on and off several times since changing firmwares - and it's having the bug right now.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 08:57:07 pm
very strange, the only difference is that yours is 2202.  I've tried again and it shows different raise/fall.  Where does it place the markers if you switch to fall mode?

I doubt very much that this is related to model numbers - it's clearly an intermittent bug; you just haven't seen it yet.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:00:45 pm
Yes, I confirmed the bug. I think the Rise time is actually just the Fall time repeated. In fact, if you chose either Rising Edge or Falling Edge with Auto cursor - it goes to the same edge.

It seems like it might be an easy bug to fix (pointer problem, etc) - I wonder if we can get Rigol to do it quickly?

It seems that it helps, if the scope is started again with same setup!!??? :-// :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 09:06:33 pm
It seems that it helps, if the scope is started again with same setup!!??? :-// :-//

No, I don't think so - I've had the new firmware for 12 hours - turned it off and on several times.

And I think I just found another measurement bug........

Look at the displayed measurements of these two images - the only difference between the two is that I deleted the Width measurement on the 2nd image. Should the DSO not measure Rise and Fall just because it can't do Width?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:14:00 pm
BTW, can you please post your 2ns setup file, I'll see if it works here with raise/fall times  ;) ;)

Teneyes has it. If you can not get it from him, send a privat mail with your emai address to me.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 09:19:04 pm
Hmmm... I start to think that the screwy measurement behavior is all caused by a single bug.

Here is another image - no current measurements being taken - and yet the average is changing constantly?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 09:24:08 pm
So, re-booting made all of the odd measurement behavior go away - for now. But that just means that the bug is intermittent - which might be worse for tracking it down. It also means that you might have to check for it anytime you want to start measuring.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:25:22 pm
No, I don't think so - I've had the new firmware for 12 hours - turned it off and on several times.

And I think I just found another measurement bug....  :(

Look at the displayed measurements of these two images - the only difference between the two is that I deleted the Width measurement on the 2nd image. Should the DSO not measure Rise and Fall just because it can't do Width?

OK, I have used this new firmware only two short times. These are anyway new bugs. Maybe somebody has fumbled with that old cursor window problem???
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:30:59 pm
Tests continue on sunday. I keep this new firmware now for testing. There was no problem to downgrade it to the old one.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 12, 2013, 09:48:15 pm
I see that it was a good idea to buy a DSO-X 2002A instead. On the other hand, it has only 100kpoints memory per channel. You can buy an upgrade to 1Mpoints per channel. But somebody might need the 7Mpoints per channel of DS2000.  :-//
Here's my new machine.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 12, 2013, 09:58:49 pm
I see that it was a good idea to buy a DSO-X 2002A instead.

Nice scope! Cursor Dx has 7 digit precision!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 12, 2013, 10:01:13 pm
Well, it is funny. But no problem.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 10:08:16 pm
But somebody might need the 7Mpoints per channel of DS2000.  :-//

28Mpts per channel - and yes, I use it all the time.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 10:15:12 pm
OK, I have used this new firmware only two short times. These are anyway new bugs.

I've only seen one new bug. It can cause some erratic behavior of some of the measurements;  it's initial cause is still unknown, but it is intermittent and seems to disappear with a reboot
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 10:26:17 pm
Nice scope! Cursor Dx has 7 digit precision!

@EV - Did you know that the number of digits of the cursor and other measurements is only related to the screen space? Inside the Rigol, those variables are real (floating point) numbers stored in scientific notation - and if you pass the data to a PC, you can display them with 8, 10, 12, etc. digit precision  - which is what you should always do with any DSO if you need high precision measurements.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 12, 2013, 10:31:47 pm
I see that it was a good idea to buy a DSO-X 2002A instead.

We need to give something back to Rigol for the money they saved us.  So we are doing a volunteer Beta testing program for them.  Fair enough... I guess. :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 12, 2013, 11:20:44 pm
also it stopped printing S/N and time on top of the pictures

My scope also stopped putting the 30 pixel top border (with model, serial number, and date/time stamp) on the image after the 2nd or 3rd save.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: zibadun on April 13, 2013, 01:05:57 am
Ok, ACK on the raise/fall being equal.  Actually it doesn't matter what counters you select, they all just show the same damn number. And the Auto cursor shows the wrong stuff.
see screen - we've got 19.65 Megaseconds rise time and 1.9 Gigapecent Duty cycle  :-DD

one workaround is to use only a single metric at a time

(http://goo.gl/yijCz)

The good news is that the 2ns setup file is GOOD (tnx EV,Teneyes).  Also what do you know, the trials got unexpired.   :phew:



 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on April 13, 2013, 02:13:34 am
I updated too. Got a file from my retailer Drieg 5 hrs ago. Its more responsive when vertically positioning is the first thing I liked. Also no options status list on first screen at last.  No same rise & fall bug. I hate the white top with the Model# S/N and date-time on a saved screen. It should have been optional and only for user description/comment. On the older non 3D RUU it chews the bottom space even. On newer RUU it saves as a whole. Here is a screenshot (I cropped out the white top tag).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 13, 2013, 05:59:37 am
I've only seen one new bug.

At least one, I hope Rigol can correct it soon!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 10:38:39 am
No same rise & fall bug. I hate the white top with the Model# S/N and date-time on a saved screen. It should have been optional and only for user description/comment. On the older non 3D RUU it chews the bottom space even. On newer RUU it saves as a whole. Here is a screenshot (I cropped out the white top tag).

Hi Salas,

Thanks for your post, but I think it would be good if we owners start using the same terms for the various problems to avoid re-posts of any conflicting/overlapping information from previous posts. BTW, both versions of RUU use the same routine to get the image from the DSO (it expects 480 vertical pixels), so it shouldn't make a difference in terms of losing the bottom.

The measurement bug
What we know:
This has been confirmed by 3 people on at least 2 different model types. It is not specifically related to Rise and Fall measurements; when it's active it affects a number of different measurements in strange ways. It is intermittent - sometimes it's active; sometimes it's not. A reboot appears to make it disappear temporarily.
What we don't know:
What causes it to happen? Edit: Preliminary information in next post. This is vital information to try to find out in order to help Rigol fix it quickly.

30 pixel white border on top of images
What we know:
This has been confirmed by 3 people on at least 2 different model types. The DSO appears to just stop attaching it to exported images at some point. For me, it stopped after 2 images.
What we don't know:
What causes it to stop?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 11:40:48 am
EDIT: Updated information on the bug here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg217805/#msg217805)

Ok, the measurement bug can be invoked by re-selecting measurement items. At first I thought it was started by the screen-saver, but in fact, it can be triggered by just leaving the DSO turned on re-selecting measurement items.

To test for it, do the following:
(Re)Boot the DSO.
Send DSO a test signal with very different rise and fall times (e.g. sawtooth wave).
Select Rise and Fall measurements from left-side menu.
Confirm they are different.
Delete the measurements.
Leave DSO and return in 10 minutes.
Re-select Rise and Fall measurements from left-side menu.
Confirm they are now the same.
(Optional:) Turn on other measurements to confirm that there are other errors (+duty, frequency, etc).

First image taken just after reboot:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44067)

Second image taken after deleting and re-selecting measurements:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44069)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 12:08:19 pm
Update:

After deleting measurement items, using "All Items -> Recover" does not invoke the bug, but re-selecting them from the left-side menu does.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 12:12:28 pm
We need to give something back to Rigol for the money they saved us.  So we are doing a volunteer Beta testing program for them.  Fair enough... I guess.

Yes, it appears we Europeans and Australians are the Beta testers before North American release of the new firmware - and we've already discovered a bug   ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 13, 2013, 01:06:31 pm
@Marmad

Have you raported the bug to Drieg or Rigol? I can not use the scope today. No new bugs has appeared?  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 01:28:53 pm
@Marmad

Have you raported the bug to Drieg or Rigol? I can not use the scope today. No new bugs has appeared?  :-+

I sent Drieg an email (and a PM to John South). No new bugs, but I don't really have much time for any in-depth testing for a few days. I had only wanted to check the new firmware for the previous known bugs  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on April 13, 2013, 04:39:44 pm
BTW, both versions of RUU use the same routine to get the image from the DSO (it expects 480 vertical pixels), so it shouldn't make a difference in terms of losing the bottom.

It did it on RUU1.51 it chewed the bottom space that hosts up to 5 selected measurements. I try again now to post you a screen and it does OK. Has to do with rebooting maybe?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on April 13, 2013, 04:53:02 pm
Also no white top tag space appears on any version RUU screen save now. Not in a screen print to USB .bmp either. All I did was to self cal and turn off.  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 13, 2013, 10:31:58 pm
It did it on RUU1.51 it chewed the bottom space that hosts up to 5 selected measurements. I try again now to post you a screen and it does OK. Has to do with rebooting maybe?

I grabbed my first image using RUU 2.0 and it also took off the bottom. But I don't know why the DSO stops putting on the border - could probably figure it out by downgrading then upgrading again, but it doesn't seem worth the effort since it wasn't a serious issue.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: John South on April 14, 2013, 01:54:33 am
Hi All - I am away from a DS2000 until Tuesday but have reported this to Rigol and hopefully should have a fix soon.

Thanks for your patience

John
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 14, 2013, 08:29:16 am
The white band on the picture has vanished here too. All measurements have the same value of +Width, which was set last. Rebooting gives correct values of measurements!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 12:22:00 pm
After playing around more with the new firmware, I have more information:

It appears that the measurement bug is simply invoked by re-selecting more than one item from the left-side menu. If any measurements are already selected when booting up (showing at the bottom of the screen), they work perfectly fine.

Edit (Copied from Post #1):
Current workarounds:
Only select 1 measurement for screen bottom.
Use 'Display All' (with 0 or 1 measurement at screen bottom).
Make sure System -> Startup is set to 'Last', then select the measurements you want at screen bottom and reboot.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 01:42:37 pm
I have just verified that self-calibration still erases the trial options in FW version 01.00.00.03.

Strange, I would have thought that was one bug that Rigol would really want to eliminate (to avoid complaints and requests for new codes from new owners).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 02:47:11 pm
Post #1 and #2 re-edited (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684) to show current state/list of known firmware bugs/version numbers and to allow easier linking for firmware instructions.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Xyphro on April 14, 2013, 02:50:44 pm
I have just verified that self-calibration still erases the trial options in FW version 01.00.00.03.

Strange, I would have thought that was one bug that Rigol would really want to eliminate (to avoid complaints and requests for new codes from new owners).

I can confirm, that FW 00.00.01.00.05 also still has this issue!

Now I can't test the nice serial decode feature today :-(
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 14, 2013, 04:05:39 pm
Is there any running hours or power-up times counter on Rigol scopes?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 04:14:17 pm
I've been running some tests to try to determine what type/when different interpolation methods are used by the Rigol DS2000 (for another thread), and I thought I'd re-post my findings here.

It seems (although I might be incorrect about this) that the Rigol does not use the timebase setting to determine the interpolation method - but instead uses the sample rate. From what I've discovered so far, it appears that:

If the sample rate <= 500MSa/s it uses linear interpolation.
If the sample rate >= 1GSa/s it uses sin(x)/x interpolation

Images here. (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg218523/#msg218523)

It appears that Rigol is being cautious by making sure only to use sin(x)/x interpolation when the signal is being band-limited above the Nyquist rate (for 1GS/s this is 500MHz and above; so should be well attenuated by the 200MHz bandwidth limit of the DS2000 series). * Thanks to jpb for this observation  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jpb on April 14, 2013, 04:26:06 pm
I've been running some tests to try to determine what type/when different interpolation methods are used by the Rigol DS2000 (for another thread), and I thought I'd re-post my findings here.

It seems (although I might be incorrect about this) that the Rigol does not use the timebase setting to determine the interpolation method - but instead uses the sample rate. From what I've discovered so far, it appears that:

If the sample rate <= 500MSa/s it uses linear interpolation.
If the sample rate >= 1GSa/s it uses sin(x)/x interpolation

Based on the math (in theory, using sin(x)/x can accurately reconstruct the waveform assuming a sample rate at least 2.5 times the highest frequency component - as opposed to linear interpolation, which requires a sample rate at least 10 times higher), it seems like it would make more sense the other way around - although I guess the fact that it uses linear interpolation at lower sample rates means that (if you don't pay attention) you're more likely to quickly realize you're undersampling.
I responded on the other thread - but I thought I'd make the same point here for the benefit of those who only read the one thread.

My understanding is that sinc(x) attenuation will give you aliasing if the original signal contains components above the Nyquist frequency (the higher components will fold back into the pass band). Given the scope bandwidth is around 200MHz or perhaps nearer 230MHz at 500MS/s the Nyquist frequency is only 250MHz so will only be attenuated by a bit more than 3dB hence using sinc(x) interpolation risks giving wrong answers. At 1GS/s the Nyquist frequency is 500MHz and for a 200MHz BW(3dB), 500MHz will be attenuated by around 9dB (that is power not amplitude) so the assumption that the higher components are not there is a better approximation.

Linear interpolation is cruder but will be less wrong in that it won't introduce false peaks though it will introduce discontinuities in the gradient.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 14, 2013, 04:37:04 pm
It appears that the measurement bug is simply invoked by re-selecting more than one item from the left-side menu. If any measurements are already selected when booting up (showing at the bottom of the screen), they work perfectly fine.

It is possible to do one measurement correctly without booting. Clear all measurements and select only one measurement from the side menu.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 04:52:42 pm
It is possible to do one measurement correctly without booting. Clear all measurements and select only one measurement from the side menu.

Um... that could be why I wrote, "...re-selecting more than one item..."  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 14, 2013, 05:31:18 pm
BTW, as long as you clear the measurements displayed at the bottom of the screen (if you have more than one), you can also use 'Display All', which will show the correct measurements.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: John South on April 15, 2013, 05:55:25 am
Hi All - Rigol are looking at another firmware release in about 2 weeks. This will fix the measurement ,and hopefully other , bugs.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 15, 2013, 06:24:48 am
Hi All - Rigol are looking at another firmware release in about 2 weeks. This will fix the measurement ,and hopefully other , bugs.

Thanks for the update, John.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Salas on April 15, 2013, 07:26:29 am
John can you pass user requests to Rigol for adding cool stuff in the future? :) If yes, I would propose amber, green, b&w color schemes & digital filter sub menu please.  8)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 15, 2013, 10:35:36 am
Hi jpb
Quote
I responded on the other thread - but I thought I'd make the same point here for the benefit of those who only read the one thread.

My understanding is that sinc(x) attenuation will give you aliasing if the original signal contains components above the Nyquist frequency (the higher components will fold back into the pass band). Given the scope bandwidth is around 200MHz or perhaps nearer 230MHz at 500MS/s the Nyquist frequency is only 250MHz so will only be attenuated by a bit more than 3dB hence using sinc(x) interpolation risks giving wrong answers. At 1GS/s the Nyquist frequency is 500MHz and for a 200MHz BW(3dB), 500MHz will be attenuated by around 9dB (that is power not amplitude) so the assumption that the higher components are not there is a better approximation.

Linear interpolation is cruder but will be less wrong in that it won't introduce false peaks though it will introduce discontinuities in the gradient.

In my opinion the amount of aliasing will depend only of the sampling frequency and the analog bandwidth of the scope.
I am wondering if they actually do up-sampling and post digital filtering of the data before showing on screen?
If they do real interpolation then sinc is more short band interpolation (brick wall ideal filtering at Nyquist)
than linear which is sinc^2 like filtering with node at the sampling frequency. 

Regards
Dimitar
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: jpb on April 15, 2013, 11:11:39 am
Hi jpb
Quote
I responded on the other thread - but I thought I'd make the same point here for the benefit of those who only read the one thread.

My understanding is that sinc(x) attenuation will give you aliasing if the original signal contains components above the Nyquist frequency (the higher components will fold back into the pass band). Given the scope bandwidth is around 200MHz or perhaps nearer 230MHz at 500MS/s the Nyquist frequency is only 250MHz so will only be attenuated by a bit more than 3dB hence using sinc(x) interpolation risks giving wrong answers. At 1GS/s the Nyquist frequency is 500MHz and for a 200MHz BW(3dB), 500MHz will be attenuated by around 9dB (that is power not amplitude) so the assumption that the higher components are not there is a better approximation.

Linear interpolation is cruder but will be less wrong in that it won't introduce false peaks though it will introduce discontinuities in the gradient.

In my opinion the amount of aliasing will depend only of the sampling frequency and the analog bandwidth of the scope.
I am wondering if they actually do up-sampling and post digital filtering of the data before showing on screen?
If they do real interpolation then sinc is more short band interpolation (brick wall ideal filtering at Nyquist)
than linear which is sinc^2 like filtering with node at the sampling frequency. 

Regards
Dimitar

Perhaps I misused the term aliasing - I was using it as short hand for the erroneous results arising from sinc(x) interpolation when the signal is not band limited to below the Nyquist frequency.

This (rather old) LeCroy app note gives some experimental results.

http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf)

Presumably upsampling and then digital filtering would be equivalent to linear interpolation followed by a low pass digital filter.

As an aside, I've been looking at arbitrary waveform generators recently and Agilent with their latest low end ones use up sampling followed by a low pass filter to reduce the jitter inherent with using a fixed sampling clock rate but that is at much lower frequencies (40MHz or less), the sampling rate is upped from 250MS/s to something over 1GS/s but in a scope they are already at rates above 1GS/s and also are trying to maximise the waveforms per second so I wouldn't think that they do it.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 15, 2013, 07:08:49 pm
Following up on my post from yesterday (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg217917/#msg217917) about interpolation on the DS2000 - here are two images of a 100MHz sine wave:

This is the sine wave sampled at 500MSa/s - and the Rigol automatically uses linear interpolation:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44455)


This is the same sine wave sampled at 1GSa/s - and the Rigol automatically uses sin(x)/x interpolation:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44457)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on April 15, 2013, 10:00:26 pm
Are you sure that second image is non-linear? To my eye, it could easily be linear with twice as many points, and it looks a bit funny for a perfect sin.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 15, 2013, 10:39:23 pm
Are you sure that second image is non-linear? To my eye, it could easily be linear with twice as many points.
Seriously? You think that's how the image would look if connected with straight line segments? With 5 sample points per division?  ;D  Well, here it is for you  - un-interpolated. Print it out, get out a ruler and pencil, and give it a go  ;)

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44471)

Quote
...and it looks a bit funny for a perfect sin.
There is no such animal.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 15, 2013, 11:17:13 pm
As I see it the Rigol collects the data points and then a display process occurs to create the vector display
But only the data points are saved in the save Waveform files.

There is acquire memory and there is display memory.

The acquire memory contains the sampled points - and it can be anything from 28 bytes (with 2 channels) to 56MB (or up to at least 114MB when segmented). That is what is saved in WFM and (if "Maximum" selected) CSV files.

The display memory contains an intensity map built-up from many waveform captures - this is what is saved in TRC files.

Also in another portion of (acquire or display) memory, an interpolation of the last/current waveform capture is stored; it is always 1400 bytes (unless the DSO is stopped and the timebase is increased past the sample length). It consists of endpoints of vectors, and is what is saved in CSV files (if "Displayed" selected), and also what RUU uses to display the waveform.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: dpenev on April 16, 2013, 08:08:42 am
Hi Guys,

Few comments I have in mind please correct me if you don't agree with something

Quote
Perhaps I misused the term aliasing - I was using it as short hand for the erroneous results arising from sinc(x) interpolation when the signal is not band limited to below the Nyquist frequency.

Well aliasing in my opinion is not a result of an interpolation. It is actually result of a sampling of the analog signal with bandwidth more than Nayquist rate (half of sampling rate). In this case we have 'folding' of the high frequency components in the signal main frequency band and this is unrecoverable by any means.(We have to increase the scope sampling frequency (reduce time base) to fix). If however the Nyquist rule is met then we can use interpolation to recover (show on screen) the exact 'analog' signal (this is done by interpolation) 
Interpolation is a way to reconstruct the analog signal from the sampled data and this is what the DSO tries to do - after all we want to see picture on screen as close as possible to the original analog signal. 

-If we know that our analog signal has no energy above current scope Nayquist rate (fs/2) we should use sinc interpolation.
For example if I have 100Mhz scope and I think I have analog signal covering roughly those 100Mhz and if i sample with 500Msamples/s (to get bigger time frame for example) It is very important to turn sinc interpolation on, as in this case for the fast frequency components the scope got only 5 points per period and interpolation will greatly provide the 'true' analog behavior in between sampled points.     

-If we know we sample much faster then the signal band width (20 times for example) then we know we have captured all signal details with enough sample points so interpolation is not that important anymore in my opinion.

- If we sample with rate below signal bandwidth*2 we know we have aliasing for sure. This is more subtle and my thinking are as follows:
In this case sinc interpolation will show on screen picture less accurate then if we use linear interpolation. This is because sinc interpolation means filtering with ideal brick wall with cut at fs/2. Linear interpolation is equivalent with filtering with sinc^2 filter with nod at fs - bigger bandwidth of interest, so in this case we get more true signal energy shown on screen. 
Probably this is why Roigol switches the interpolations (linear sinc) as it was mentioned before?

- If we have analog signal 1Ghz band but my scope is only 100Mhz and I have set fs=1Gsamples/s then we don't have much aliasing because the scope analog channel filter will probably drop down a lot at the Nyquist rate 500MHz and we will see on scope the 'true' part of the signal with energy in the band below 100MHz. (in this case we have no clue about the part above 200MHz let say but important is that this doesn't affect the accuracy of what scope shows)   

Quote
This (rather old) LeCroy app note gives some experimental results.
http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf (http://cdn.teledynelecroy.com/files/whitepapers/wp_interpolation_102203.pdf)
Thank you jpb it is very useful readings!
Probably someone can try with Rigol DS2000 to experiment with the edge and sine wave test
they described in this document?

Quote
Presumably upsampling and then digital filtering would be equivalent to linear interpolation followed by a low pass digital filter.

Well I think this is the way Rigol actually do the interpolation I think. Yes this is a complex thing if you need to do on the whole sampled data real time but note that they probably do this only on the sampled data currently fit on the screen (1400 byte as Marmad noted).
So what they do I think for sinc interpolation is check how many original data points fit in the current screen.
Calculate how much they need to up sample so have enough points on screen - n. Insert n-1 zeros in between each original sample points and then filter with sinc filter (approximation of it )(ideal brick wall fs/2 in frequency domain) and the result is 1400 bytes shown on screen. 
Of course if we have sampled data on the current screen more then 1400 bytes no need to sinc interpolate.     

Regards
Dimitar
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 09:20:01 am
So what they do I think for sinc interpolation is check how many original data points fit in the current screen.
Calculate how much they need to up sample so have enough points on screen - n. Insert n-1 zeros in between each original sample points and then filter with sinc filter (approximation of it )(ideal brick wall fs/2 in frequency domain) and the result is 1400 bytes shown on screen. 
Of course if we have sampled data on the current screen more then 1400 bytes no need to sinc interpolate.     

Actually, the waveform display area is only 700x400 pixels on screen; the 1400 bytes are endpoints of vectors.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 16, 2013, 03:46:21 pm
Here is firmware upgrade procedure from Rigol:
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 03:54:36 pm
Here is firmware upgrade procedure from Rigol:
Yes - the same one as here (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2013, 04:19:52 pm
Firmware upgrade of Agilent DSOX2000 series is much more simple... http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=CZ&nid=-33575.970747&id=2014479 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=CZ&nid=-33575.970747&id=2014479)
Quote
To update your oscilloscope's firmware, do one of the following:

    Place the file on a USB flash drive, connect it to the oscilloscope, press [Utility] > File Explorer, select the file; then, press Load File.
    If your oscilloscope is on the network: you can place the file on your computer, access the oscilloscope's Web Interface (see the User's Guide for details), click Instrument Utilities, select Firmware Version, browse to select the file; then, click Install.

After your oscilloscope's firmware is updated, check the calibration status: press [Utility] > Service > User Cal Status. If "Results: OK" is displayed, you do not need to recalibrate. If calibration is required, press the Start User Cal softkey.
There is even no talk about the uninterruptible power supply. No instrument damage warning. Probably Agilent uses an advanced firmware protection or something.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: grego on April 16, 2013, 04:31:30 pm
Firmware upgrade of Agilent DSOX2000 series is much more simple... http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=CZ&nid=-33575.970747&id=2014479 (http://www.home.agilent.com/agilent/software.jspx?ckey=2014479&lc=eng&cc=CZ&nid=-33575.970747&id=2014479)
Quote
To update your oscilloscope's firmware, do one of the following:

    Place the file on a USB flash drive, connect it to the oscilloscope, press [Utility] > File Explorer, select the file; then, press Load File.
    If your oscilloscope is on the network: you can place the file on your computer, access the oscilloscope's Web Interface (see the User's Guide for details), click Instrument Utilities, select Firmware Version, browse to select the file; then, click Install.

After your oscilloscope's firmware is updated, check the calibration status: press [Utility] > Service > User Cal Status. If "Results: OK" is displayed, you do not need to recalibrate. If calibration is required, press the Start User Cal softkey.
There is even no talk about the uninterruptible power supply. No instrument damage warning. Probably Agilent uses an advanced firmware protection or something.

Same on the Instek. :P  So there.  epeen! epeen!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 04:36:16 pm
Firmware upgrade of Agilent DSOX2000 series is much more simple...

Same on the Instek. :P  So there.  epeen! epeen!

Ok, I'm convinced! The huge 'difficulty' of upgrading firmware is the last straw.  ;D  I'm selling my Rigol DS2000 and buying a less powerful Agilent DSOX2000!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2013, 04:43:01 pm
Anyway I am not going to try what happens if there is a power cut during firmware upgrading of DSOX-2002A. I hope that nothing happens, but who knows? :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 16, 2013, 04:49:52 pm
Ok, I'm convinced! The huge 'difficulty' of upgrading firmware is the last straw.  ;D  I'm selling my Rigol DS2000 and buying a less powerful Agilent DSOX2000!

I do not sell anything. I only buy more. Selling is problem of my heirs.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 04:50:46 pm
There is even no talk about the uninterruptible power supply. No instrument damage warning. Probably Agilent uses an advanced firmware protection or something.

This is just overly cautious language from a manufacturer. Cutting power to any electronic device when it's re-writing internal memory is never a good idea. But the UltraVision series have a boot-loader built into non-volatile memory that makes it almost impossible to brick the device - since you can, in theory, always recover from half-written firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 05:40:02 pm
*** The trail options DO NOT disappear anymore after a self-cal, they where there again
before and after i had my 1703 minutes left...

Sorry to disagree, but I specifically installed trial options using a new license code then did a self-cal. and they vanished. So I don't know what happened when you did it, but when I did it they were erased. So I don't think it's wise to tell people it's been solved yet until we know the parameters of exactly when it does/doesn't erase them.

Quote
The header on the top of a print screen can be changed a little by changing some setup
see attached file, where now the date is left out. It seems they put the para.txt in the file.

As mentioned a few times, the header disappears after a couple of saves.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 05:52:49 pm
Other people dont get it back, but on my machine...it  is strange it did not happen on my DSO ?????

It's possible that it happened to me because I had just installed a new trial license key (i.e. not factory-installed one), but I don't know. Using SCPI commands, you can install any license key - and uninstall official keys. So since I had an extra trial key, I uninstalled my official one and installed the trial key. Then I used it for ~2.5 hours - then tried a self-cal - and it lost the remaining 2000 minutes.  :(  So it's still not clear what provoked the bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2013, 05:56:43 pm
Has somebody tried to connect the scope to a USB inkjet printer? Not an important feature, but this doesn't work on my DSOX2002A, it has no Pict Bridge support. Rigol should have this, according to the manual.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 05:58:10 pm
RS233 Options
Does anyone know it there is any differences in the functions of
the RS232 Decode function:
 on the   DS2000    at $222
 on the   DS4000    at $500
 on the   DS6000    at $750   

Are the functions just crippled by menu items???

I doubt there is any difference - but you could find the documentation for each one and compare.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 06:11:24 pm
EDIT: I think the header is there for factory use, after some time it disappear, normally in the factory
they make a print screen for admin. After shipping it is gone by time.

Yes, I think so too. It also looks exactly like the header on the Agilent X Series images  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 06:13:47 pm
UPDATE, a second self -cal and the options are gone... |O
Totally, even the option box is grade out.... |O

Oh well - you have to test the recovery method on this FW version anyway, no?  ;D

And if that doesn't work - then it's time to downgrade and get them back  ;)

At least they don't vanish during an upgrade - which is probably the most important thing!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 08:18:02 pm
Just got the following Version Notes doc for the latest version from Jason Chonko, Apps Engineer at Rigol North America.

Interesting stuff!

Edit: Funny - I was just writing out a list of the standard triggers for a different thread - and I noticed that Runt was now included. And sure enough, in the Version Notes, it mentions Runt has been changed to a standard trigger (not options package anymore).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 08:22:24 pm
These bits are interesting:

"Added SCPI command for decoding data"
"Added option for power analysis (PC software)"
"Support DS2000-S series"

Version: 00.01.00.00.03   Date: 2013-4-1

E: Enhancements / M: Modification

1.      Added SCPI command for decoding data   E
2.      Fixed the cursor window error when change cursor mode(201303000020)   M
3.      Added option for power analysis (PC software)   E
4.      Fixed screen saver error when the scope have a trial license   M
5.      Fixed Anti-Aliasing error when reboot the unit   M
6.      Optimized the sampling rate in AC or Ext trigger   E
7.      Fixed “open record” error    M
8.      Optimized the trace display in normal trigger mode when change the horizontal or vertical setting   E
9.      Optimized the speed of PNG file storage   E
10.      Fixed the data error of .csv file   M
11.      Increased the sampling rate in ROLL mode   E
12.      Switched the position of channel in XY mode   M
13.      Optimized the compatibility for updated flash chip and writing/reading speed   E
14.      Changed the RUNT as standard trigger    M
15.      Support DS2000-S series   E
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 08:29:27 pm
I just ran a quick file compare of the FW from Jason versus the FW gotten through John South - but they are identical - so no fix yet to the measurement bug.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 16, 2013, 08:38:14 pm
What's DS2000-S series?
Anyway, I like the DS2000's easy replaceable fuse. Most scopes have the fuse inside, often even solderer (Tek DPO2000, DSOX2000...)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 09:12:49 pm
I'm not sure if the DS6000 Demo Board has been mentioned before on EEVBlog or not (a quick search didn't turn up anything), but I found it at Batronix while searching for any possible new UltraVision products - and I hadn't seen it before and thought it was kind of interesting. It lists at €163 / $225 (excl.), and I've attached the user guide below.

"This Demo board is used to illustrate the basic functions of the oscilloscope. It is powered through USB port and can output 25 kinds of signals for the illustration of oscilloscope functions, i.e. sine, video (PAL/NTSC), AM Modulation, Sweeps, many digital signals and lots more. Delivery including Demo Board, USB Cable, CD with manual."

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44584)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: thm_w on April 16, 2013, 09:19:52 pm
What's DS2000-S series?
Anyway, I like the DS2000's easy replaceable fuse. Most scopes have the fuse inside, often even solderer (Tek DPO2000, DSOX2000...)
Looks like a 25MHz signal generator added internally to the DS2000: http://cn.rigol.com/download/China/DS/Datasheet/DS2000_DataSheet_CN.pdf (http://cn.rigol.com/download/China/DS/Datasheet/DS2000_DataSheet_CN.pdf)

Translated specs:
Quote
Number of Channels 2
Sampling rate 200MSa / s
Vertical resolution of 14bits
Maximum frequency of 25MHz
Standard waveforms sine, square wave, pulse, triangle wave, noise, DC
Arbitrary Waveform Sinc, the index rose, the index fell, ECG, Gauss, haversine
The sinusoidal frequency range from 0.1Hz to 25MHz
Flatness of ± 0.5dB (relative 1kHz)
Harmonic distortion of-40dBc
Spurious (non-harmonic)-40dBc
1% total harmonic distortion
Signal-to-noise ratio 40dB (TBD)
Square / pulse frequency range of 0.1Hz to 15MHz
Rise and fall time <15ns
Overshoot <5%
Duty cycle of 10-90%
Duty cycle resolution of 1% or 10ns (whichever is the greater value)
The minimum pulse width of 20ns
Pulse width resolution of 10ns or 5 (whichever is the larger value)
Jitter 500ps
Triangle wave frequency range of 0.1Hz to 100kHz
Linearity 1%
Symmetry 0-100%
Noise bandwidth of 25MHz (typ)
Arbitrary wave frequency range of 0.1Hz to 10MHz
Waveform length 2 ~ 16k points
Internal storage of 4
Frequency accuracy of 100ppm (less than 10kHz) 50ppm (greater than 10kHz)
Resolution of 0.1Hz or 4, whichever is greater
The amplitude output range 20mVpp ~ 5Vpp, high impedance 10mVpp ~ 2.5Vpp, 50ohm
The resolution 100uV or 3, whichever is the greater value
Accuracy of 2% (1kHz)
DC offset range ± 2.5V, high impedance ± 1.25V, 50ohm
The resolution 100uV or 3, whichever is the greater value
Accuracy of 2% (1kHz)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 09:50:34 pm
Looks like a 25MHz signal generator added internally to the DS2000:

Dual channel AWG - nice!  ;D Also, nice find - thm_w - thanks! I just started a new thread with this info since I think many people will be very interested.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on April 16, 2013, 10:49:06 pm
Seriously? You think that's how the image would look if connected with straight line segments? With 5 sample points per division?  ;D  Well, here it is for you  - un-interpolated. Print it out, get out a ruler and pencil, and give it a go  ;)
What? Of course seriously! Did you think I was trolling you or something?

The peaks are the only part where the curve would be obvious in your capture, and many of them are oddly straight with harsh changes in slope.  So I did what you suggested, more or less.  I took your image into a paint program, drew vertical grid lines every 10 pixels (as measured for your dots display), lined up the grid lines with the non-smooth parts of the wave (they do coincide), and played around drawing lines.  The peaks obviously aren't pointy enough, but If those lines just continued straight for a few more pixels then the whole thing would basically be straight line segments.

It would have been a lot clearer with a square-er aspect ratio per period, I think.

Quote
Quote
...and it looks a bit funny for a perfect sin.
There is no such animal.
I guess that's what it boils down to!  I was expecting that the interpolation's synthetic sine would be pretty faithful, but I guess there's some rounding or error accumulation or whatever that causes it to flatten up at that aspect ratio.   Interestingly, Teneyes' 6pt has just a couple pixels more per period, but the sine looks much better.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 16, 2013, 11:18:54 pm
The peaks obviously aren't pointy enough, but If those lines just continued straight for a few more pixels then the whole thing would basically be straight line segments.
I just took the sample points image into Photoshop and connected the first few segments. I don't really think you could mistake the difference between this and sin(x)/x interpolation - although granted, it would perhaps be more obvious if the sine wave cycles were bigger (shorter timebase).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44589)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 17, 2013, 12:03:02 am
I'm not sure if the DS6000 Demo Board has been mentioned before on EEVBlog or not (a quick search didn't turn up anything), but I found it at Batronix while searching for any possible new UltraVision products - and I hadn't seen it before and thought it was kind of interesting. It lists at €163 / $225 (excl.), and I've attached the user guide below.

Rigol are supposed to be getting me one of those, looks interesting.
They should most certainly get you one too!
I also have a Tek MSO demo board.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 17, 2013, 12:08:02 am
Rigol are supposed to be getting me one of those, looks interesting.
They should most certainly get you one too!

I agree on both points! ;D  Seriously though, it does look interesting - a little like a response by them to the educational options offered by the Agilent X2000/3000 (which I always thought were pretty cool).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 17, 2013, 12:37:34 am
Not sure if Rigol can be used by students at school 8 hours a day for say 10 years? Rigol is better for hobbyists who want a bang per buck.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: grego on April 17, 2013, 02:51:51 am
I'm not sure if the DS6000 Demo Board has been mentioned before on EEVBlog or not (a quick search didn't turn up anything), but I found it at Batronix while searching for any possible new UltraVision products - and I hadn't seen it before and thought it was kind of interesting. It lists at €163 / $225 (excl.), and I've attached the user guide below.

"This Demo board is used to illustrate the basic functions of the oscilloscope. It is powered through USB port and can output 25 kinds of signals for the illustration of oscilloscope functions, i.e. sine, video (PAL/NTSC), AM Modulation, Sweeps, many digital signals and lots more. Delivery including Demo Board, USB Cable, CD with manual."

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44584)

It's got the Instek one beat - Instek demo board only does 10 analog and 5 digital/LA functions for $205 list (so probably about $185 discounted).

I might have to get me one of these to play around with.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Galaxyrise on April 17, 2013, 06:20:25 am
I just took the sample points image into Photoshop and connected the first few segments. I don't really think you could mistake the difference
Obviously not those sample points. I didn't have access to them at first, and even now I have no reason to think they match exactly with the vector capture. The trigger setting is different, and dots/vectors trigger a little differently.

Compare the peak from your interpolated capture with one that has plenty of data and see how much rounder the correct curve is! It wasn't until I tried it that I could see how it didn't work out, but it's really not far off.  I can draw lines that only differ significantly at the very top of the peak.  If I then chop off the pointy bit, I get something very similar to your capture (effectively adding just one more sample per peak.)

So maybe now you can see where I was coming from.  But either way, sorry to ask and I won't take any more of this long thread with what's way off topic.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 17, 2013, 10:21:42 am
Obviously not those sample points. I didn't have access to them at first, and even now I have no reason to think they match exactly with the vector capture. The trigger setting is different, and dots/vectors trigger a little differently.
The trigger setting didn't really matter - here's another image I just captured of the same 100MHz uninterpolated sine wave (sorry - slightly less amplitude due to a loose 50 Ohm terminator) with the trigger set to the previous 180mV level. It's almost the same image as before - with the dots just shifted horizontally.

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44625)


Quote
Compare the peak from your interpolated capture with one that has plenty of data and see how much rounder the correct curve is!
DSOs are imperfect devices - and besides doing the sin(x)/x interpolation, the scope is doing other transformations to the sample data to get it to the display (e.g. the Rigol is mapping 200 bits of vertical ADC resolution to 400 pixels of vertical screen resolution). Perfectly correct curves may or may not be precisely what you see on the display - although with a small number of sample points, the difference between linear and sin(x)/x interpolation is pretty noticeable.

Here are two images from a LeCroy Waverunner LT 224; the first one showing sin(x)/x using 10 samples per div. Can you see what looks like short line segments at the tops and bottoms of some of the sine waves?

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44621)


This image shows both linear and sin(x)/x interpolation using 5 sample points per div as in my Rigol example (although with longer cycles).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44623)


Quote
If I then chop off the pointy bit, I get something very similar to your capture (effectively adding just one more sample per peak.)
Well sure, adding sample points in convenient locations can definitely help linear interpolation look more like sin(x)/x.  ;)  But in any case, to me, the difference between your linear interpolation and the 'bad' curve is still noticeable - one looks like straight vectors and the other looks like less-than-perfect curve fitting.

Quote
But either way, sorry to ask and I won't take any more of this long thread with what's way off topic.
It wasn't any problem to ask, and I don't think it's off topic since it's about the Rigol's interpolation (and I brought it up in the first place). I was just surprised at the question - and I thought I answered good-naturedly with a bit of ribbing -  while trying to point out that, IMO, it would have been clear if linear interpolation had been used on that waveform with 5 points per div. - even though, as I mentioned in my later post, I understood your point and conceded that it would have been more clear if I had used a lower frequency sine wave in the example.  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 17, 2013, 06:39:08 pm
 :scared: Got my trail options back 2156 minutes, with new update installed.  :scared:

The procedure is still the same.

So you keep your trail options when upgrading, you dont lose it after the first Self-cal.
but you wil lose it on the second  self-cal and every self-cal after

( Note; some users reports other experiences about the first self-cal, maybe it is unit and configration depended. )

Small difference is that if the options are expired, you dont get this
message anymore at startup. When expired you cant find that anymore somewhere.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 17, 2013, 06:46:11 pm
The procedure is still the same.

Good to know. Thanks for testing and sharing your findings  ;)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 18, 2013, 05:17:44 am
Hello
my DS2072 saved screens on the flash as .trc files. Searching all inet I have no idea how to work with it.
Does anybody know what it is? Example in attachment.
Thanks in advance,
Vladimir
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 08:48:22 am
Hello
my DS2072 saved screens on the flash as .trc files. Searching all inet I have no idea how to work with it.
Does anybody know what it is? Example in attachment.
Thanks in advance,
Vladimir

From DS2000 User Manual:

"1. Traces
Save the waveform data in external memory in “*.trc” format. The data of all the channels turned on can be saved in the same file. At recall, the data will be displayed on the screen directly."

TRC is just an image of the waveforms on the screen - kind of like an image file (e.g. BMP) but one that can be loaded back onto the display of the DSO.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 08:54:03 am
On arrival users want to do a self-cal, but the next time you do a self call is much much later,
then your options are long ago expired..., so it is a real solution..., good thinking from Rigol.

1) This is not a solution - it's a bug that hasn't been fixed. Self-calibration should not affect trial minutes not matter how many you do.

2) As mentioned before, I installed a brand new trial license key - did one self calibration - and the trial minutes were erased. So this does not work in every situation.

3) Until more is known about the parameters, self-calibration is still not something I would recommend new users do - unless they have a spare trial license key or until their trial minutes are gone.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 18, 2013, 09:48:03 am
On arrival users want to do a self-cal, but the next time you do a self call is much much later,
then your options are long ago expired..., so it is a real solution..., good thinking from Rigol.

1) This is not a solution - it's a bug that hasn't been fixed. Self-calibration should not affect trial minutes not matter how many you do.

2) As mentioned before, I installed a brand new trial license key - did one self calibration - and the trial minutes were erased. So this does not work in every situation.

3) Until more is known about the parameters, self-calibration is still not something I would recommend new users do - unless they have a spare trial license key or until their trial minutes are gone.

A bug is when you made a mistake in your software. But i am not sure it is a mistake.

From your point of view from the software site, yes it looks like a mistake.

But what if it part of there proces. They designed it this way to come to a factory proces,
so they could simply design a cheap working proces.  It is a way of thinking, we probally dont understand.

Also they did not tell anything about it in the release note, which is very strange.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 09:55:21 am
A bug is when you made a mistake in your software. But i am not sure it is a mistake.

Since I doubt any company wants it's customers complaining and demanding help (i.e. requiring new trial keys) I'm convinced it's a bug.

Quote
Also they did not tell anything about it in the release note, which is very strange.

Another reason to believe that any change you've noticed is just the by-product of other work they did on the firmware, and the original self-cal bug still remains.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 09:56:10 am
Same post as at "New Rigol DS2000-S series with built-in dual-channel 25-MHz AWG (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/new-rigol-ds2000-s-series-with-built-in-dual-channel-25-mhz-awg/msg219070/#msg219070)". I'm double-posting this because I thought it might be interesting to people following either thread.

Using SCPI commands, I was able to play around with the features of the DS2000-S waveform generator 'inside' of the new firmware on the DS2000: setting the frequencies, voltage levels, phase, etc. of the two source channels. I also located (but haven't tested yet) the command to download waveforms to the AWG.

Of course, without any external outputs on my model (and not having it open), it was impossible to know if anything other than variable settings inside memory were being affected (probably not of course). I haven't been able to make the DSO show anything (including the new menus or screen icons associated with the AWG - as shown in the image), so I'm wondering if those things are tied to having the model number with the "-S" in non-volatile memory (just like the bandwidth, 2ns timebase, and 100MHz filter seem to be tied to the model number inside the DS2XXX).

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44833)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 18, 2013, 10:41:44 am

AWG functions...very nice

Why is it all in chinees..,

Maybe we have to solder in two BNC plugs on the back side.., have to look on Daves
teardown, to see if there is already something on the circuitboard..to connect to
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 11:04:33 am
Why is it all in chinees..,
Image is from Chinese document - Rigol always releases new products first in China (more 'beta' testing ;D ) before Western markets.

Quote
Maybe we have to solder in two BNC plugs on the back side.., have to look on Daves
teardown, to see if there is already something on the circuitboard..to connect to
I was looking over Dave's photos last night; I couldn't see any obvious DDS circuitry, but there is certainly space for a daughterboard. One bad thing though - the new DS2000-S series has a button on the front panel that isn't on the normal DS2000 series.

From one of Dave's hi-res photos:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44853)


New front panel button:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44851)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EEVblog on April 18, 2013, 11:32:55 am
I was looking over Dave's photos last night; I couldn't see any obvious DDS circuitry, but there is certainly space for a daughterboard.

My bet is it's a new board, with direct mount BNCs like the existing one.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Wim13 on April 18, 2013, 12:58:12 pm

DS 2000 -S,

In the service menu, key test, there are two keys i can find on the front,
one is called  LA and the other is indeed Source

In the firmware all the commands are there for the AWG.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 01:20:53 pm
In the service menu, key test, there are two keys i can find on the front,
one is called  LA and the other is indeed Source
Interesting. It shows the button as being here on the front panel:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44879)


Quote
In the firmware all the commands are there for the AWG.
I mentioned in a previous post that I think all commands necessary for an LA are also already in the firmware.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 18, 2013, 10:28:48 pm
I was looking through Dave's photos again from his DS2000 teardown, and I noticed in his shot of the inside of the front panel that the place where the 'Source' and 'LA' buttons will eventually go is already knocked out - only the stuck-on plastic template with the legend is covering the holes. In fact, if you rub your thumb or finger on the front panel in either of those two places, you can feel the holes behind the template.  :D

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44907)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Electro Fan on April 18, 2013, 11:04:29 pm
Put Logic Analyzer features roughly the equivalent of the external units we have been discussing (with triggering, protocols, etc.)  in the $300-$400 range into the 2072 and you get a very popular configuration.  Just saying.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: grego on April 18, 2013, 11:29:14 pm
Put Logic Analyzer features roughly the equivalent of the external units we have been discussing (with triggering, protocols, etc.)  in the $300-$400 range into the 2072 and you get a very popular configuration.  Just saying.

My guess is they will keep their decodes separate as they do already and just add the LA function as an option for ~$400-$500 USD for an 8 channel.  That would keep them in the same range with Agilent and Instek.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 19, 2013, 10:02:35 pm
Why is there only one conductive rubber dot at the Clear and Auto button? It's not good!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 20, 2013, 12:21:30 am
Oh, that's crazy. http://youtu.be/BWZXGzAVkD8?t=32m19s (http://youtu.be/BWZXGzAVkD8?t=32m19s) But unfortunately there is no photo of Agilent's keyboard.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: nack on April 20, 2013, 10:48:10 am
Why is there only one conductive rubber dot at the Clear and Auto button? It's not good!

Not really.

The Run/Stop and Single button use a led indicator which has to be spaced in the center for even illumination, therefore two carbon-pads are placed alongside the led.  The Clear and Auto button are not illuminated and could utilize a single carbon-pad, and they are probably less frequently used.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 20, 2013, 11:09:29 am
Not only are there holes in the front panel for the two buttons, the keypad PCB is already laid out for the two additional (illuminated) buttons:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=45117)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 20, 2013, 11:39:27 am
So we need to get two extra buttons somewhere!   :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 20, 2013, 11:43:24 am
So we need to get two extra buttons somewhere!   :)

With the new firmware, this has gotten me curious as to whether shorting the 'Source' button position will pop-out the AWG side menu... perhaps it's time to finally open my DSO.  ;D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Teneyes on April 20, 2013, 12:10:18 pm
And the Metal case is Ready for BNC outputs,
But does Not look like an Add-on board  :(
[
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: bonanz on April 20, 2013, 12:11:57 pm
So we need to get two extra buttons somewhere!   :)

With the new firmware, this has gotten me curious as to whether shorting the 'Source' button position will pop-out the AWG side menu... perhaps it's time to finally open my DSO.  ;D

do it  >:D
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: EV on April 20, 2013, 12:18:10 pm
And the Metal case is Ready for BNC outputs,
But does Not look like an Add-on board  :(

Now must be discovered where to connect the cables! :) :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 20, 2013, 02:02:42 pm
Not only are there holes in the front panel for the two buttons, the keypad PCB is already laid out for the two additional (illuminated) buttons:

(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=45117)
I like the metal encoder spindles.  :-+
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Jason on April 22, 2013, 02:34:29 am
(https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/?action=dlattach;attach=44853)

I'm intrigued by those SPI pins.  Has anyone tried using them?
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 22, 2013, 07:10:54 am
Strange thing. When my scope arrived I of course made self-calibration and lost all trials. But yesterday I switched it on and suddenly saw all trial with the time left about 1200min. It was no any actions from my side. Then I update the device to 01.00.00.00.03 and all tials were kept.
 
BTW. Does anybody succeed with Rigol support. I sent numerous mails to support@rigol.com and from the feedback form from Customer Center. It seems they are in permanent meditation or dead.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 01:38:46 pm
Are you able to obtain waveform data that is 2GS/sec ? Everything Ive tried results in a file containing 1GS/Sec data. Ive set horizontal to max, memory depth to 56Mpoints, 14, 1.4, aliasing on and off - scope says 2GS/Sec on the display but always outputs 1GS/sec to the wavefile. Acquire mode is normal. 

To check the scope. It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec. I generated a 10 - 950 Mhz sine wave sweep at -20dBm and it displayed it on the FFT. Its a bit iffy above 200 Mhz. 

What I did, Capture an antenna with broadcast FM present at 2GS/sec, loaded that into baudline and checked the position of the stations. None of the saved files were recorded at 2GS/sec, all were 1GS/sec.

My model is the DS2072. Firmware 0.0.1 according to the LXi welcome page.
Buggy firmware ?

-Mike.



Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 22, 2013, 01:57:18 pm
Are you able to obtain waveform data that is 2GS/sec ? Everything Ive tried results in a file containing 1GS/Sec data. Ive set horizontal to max, memory depth to 56Mpoints, 14, 1.4, aliasing on and off - scope says 2GS/Sec on the display but always outputs 1GS/sec to the wavefile. Acquire mode is normal.

To check the scope. It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec. I generated a 10 - 950 Mhz sine wave sweep at -20dBm and it displayed it on the FFT. Its a bit iffy above 200 Mhz.

To check the sampling rate, all you have to do is STOP acquiring when it displays '2GSs/s', then change the timebase to the smallest possible (e.g. 5ns), switch 'Display' -> 'Vectors' to 'Dots', then count the actual sample points. 2GSa/s means a 500ps acquire time for the ADC, so at 5ns/div, you should see 10 dots per div. If you don't, then I would imagine you have a technical problem.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Hydrawerk on April 22, 2013, 02:00:01 pm
Well, at Agilent DSOX2002A you cannot set dots. Rigol is better at this.  :-//
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 22, 2013, 02:29:07 pm
BTW. Does anybody succeed with Rigol support. I sent numerous mails to support@rigol.com and from the feedback form from Customer Center. It seems they are in permanent meditation or dead.

From what I've read, people have had varying levels of success. In some areas, it seems Rigol is quick and responsive to their customers - in other areas, not so much. I've had success communicating to Rigol through my dealer - which is sometimes the better path to take than directly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 03:17:09 pm
Are you able to obtain waveform data that is 2GS/sec ? Everything Ive tried results in a file containing 1GS/Sec data. Ive set horizontal to max, memory depth to 56Mpoints, 14, 1.4, aliasing on and off - scope says 2GS/Sec on the display but always outputs 1GS/sec to the wavefile. Acquire mode is normal.

To check the scope. It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec. I generated a 10 - 950 Mhz sine wave sweep at -20dBm and it displayed it on the FFT. Its a bit iffy above 200 Mhz.

To check the sampling rate, all you have to do is STOP acquiring when it displays '2GSs/s', then change the timebase to the smallest possible (e.g. 5ns), switch 'Display' -> 'Vectors' to 'Dots', then count the actual sample points. 2GSa/s means a 500ps acquire time for the ADC, so at 5ns/div, you should see 10 dots per div. If you don't, then I would imagine you have a technical problem.

The scope is sampling at 2GS/Sec single channel dual its 1GS/Sec. At 2GS/sec 10 dots are show after single run at 5ns. It will easily display e.g a 400 Mhz sine wave. The problem is the scope doesn't save that 2GS/sec capture to the wfm file. Theres decimation going on and it saves 1 Gs/Sec data. (Which is still a 500Mhz spectral chunk)

Theres two possibilities, 1. the scope does decimate and saves 1GS/sec waves, or 2. the tool Im using to view the waveform is parsing the binary data incorrectly. I noticed the wfm file for the DS2072 isnt the same as the DS1052E. It contains preamble. Either case Ill check with the baudline author.


-Mike.


 
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 22, 2013, 03:27:57 pm
Theres two possibilities, 1. the scope does decimate and saves 1GS/sec waves, or 2. the tool Im using to view the waveform is parsing the binary data incorrectly. I noticed the wfm file for the DS2072 isnt the same as the DS1052E. It contains preamble. Either case Ill check with the baudline author.
I'm guessing it's almost certainly #2 - there wouldn't be any logical reason for #1 (except a bug). And yes, the WFM format has been drastically changed - and there is no published documentation about it - typical Rigol/Chinese behavior which pisses me off. And they appear to have changed it even some more in the latest firmware version (01.00.00.03)!

We are currently working on documenting the format - so that conversion routines can be written.

BTW, if you want to know what version of firmware you're running, you need to use a specific sequence of buttons. Read the instructions at the bottom of this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 22, 2013, 03:33:51 pm
BTW. Does anybody succeed with Rigol support. I sent numerous mails to support@rigol.com and from the feedback form from Customer Center. It seems they are in permanent meditation or dead.

From what I've read, people have had varying levels of success. In some areas, it seems Rigol is quick and responsive to their customers - in other areas, not so much. I've had success communicating to Rigol through my dealer - which is sometimes the better path to take than directly.
Thanks for answer, marmad.
Yes it is. I got all the help from Anna Lewandowska from Testwall. But it seems not to be a good way to disturb her any time I need assistance. She already spent a lot of  time and efforts to deliver the device from Ireland to Moscow. DHL service is absolutely inadequate in my country.

So, if I am a registered customer, why I could not get the support from the only place where I registered?
BTW. They suggest me to visit their Munich office :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 22, 2013, 03:45:12 pm
So, if I am a registered customer, why I could not get the support from the only place where I registered?
BTW. They suggest me to visit their Munich office :)

Well, that's one reason the Rigol (and Hantek and Owon and Siglent) threads are so numerous (and often large) in this forum - because we (the owners/users of the equipment) are offering support to each other to make up for a deficiency from the manufacturers. If the Chinese companies provided better documentation and software for their devices - as well as a speedy, reasonable level of after-sales support, many of us would probably spend a lot less time here  :)
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Evi on April 22, 2013, 04:02:45 pm

Well, that's one reason the Rigol (and Hantek and Owon and Siglent) threads are so numerous (and often large) in this forum - because we (the owners/users of the equipment) are offering support to each other to make up for a deficiency from the manufacturers. If the Chinese companies provided better documentation and software for their devices - as well as a speedy, reasonable level of after-sales support, many of us would probably spend a lot less time here  :)
I do agree, Mark. But if so, why not to make a separate topic for FW updates to put there FW files. Because now everybody here need each time to ask his dealer for help.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 04:23:04 pm
Theres two possibilities, 1. the scope does decimate and saves 1GS/sec waves, or 2. the tool Im using to view the waveform is parsing the binary data incorrectly. I noticed the wfm file for the DS2072 isnt the same as the DS1052E. It contains preamble. Either case Ill check with the baudline author.
I'm guessing it's almost certainly #2 - there wouldn't be any logical reason for #1 (except a bug). And yes, the WFM format has been drastically changed - and there is no published documentation about it - typical Rigol/Chinese behavior which pisses me off. And they appear to have changed it even some more in the latest firmware version (01.00.00.03)!

We are currently working on documenting the format - so that conversion routines can be written.

BTW, if you want to know what version of firmware you're running, you need to use a specific sequence of buttons. Read the instructions at the bottom of this post (https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/first-impressions-and-review-of-the-rigol-ds2072-ds2000-series-dso/msg158684/#msg158684).

Hi,
   I have 00.00.01.00.05 Software, Hardware is 1.0.1.0.0, rest I guess isnt important? - The proceedure you give for obtaining the information is part of the calibration routines - I ended up in channel gain menu  |O

/not related to the wfm parsing,
The 01.00.05 firmware locksup with RAW reads even in stop mode, currently Im resorting to reading the display data and processing that. Not ideal - Thats already on the forum and theres a test app, not good for me since I dont use windows at all, I used rigolterm and the scope crashed with manual / basic command  entry.

The dealer sent me the latest firmware 00.01.00.00.03 together with the DS2000 programming guide dated July 2012. Fine for usb control (if raw worked, need to double check the commands while in the same room as the scope.)

Im also aware the firmware update proceedure is a little more involved, will check that.

Somewhat related:-

http://www.urlme.net/blog/?p=2031 (http://www.urlme.net/blog/?p=2031)

The dual channel example is from a TEK TDS1012B scope.

-Anyhow the .wfm file format is rather odd, baudline is able to parse unsigned bytes easily - it will display the spectrum showing e.g radio channels in the right places but only for sample rates set to 1GS/Sec, the file was captured at 2GS/sec, if I load that setting the sample rate accordingly they are in the wrong "spot" suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

I will make a file with e.g 100 MHz marker (via sig gen) & capture it to investigate the file further.

Regarding other comments: We gain in hardware what we loose in documentation...

Batronix have been fast and friendly but ultimately must also resort to emailing Rigol...




Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tequipment on April 22, 2013, 04:53:16 pm
The 2072 is less because its the entry price.  Its made to grab attention.  The insides should be the same.
Evan Cirelli

TEquipment.NET
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: olsenn on April 22, 2013, 05:29:54 pm
Quote
Are you saying the DS2072 is same hardware as DS2200 and only needs sofware to get 200MHz bandwidth 

Since the DS1052E/DS1102E fiasco started on this site, Rigol has spent some time beefing up their security when it comes to unlocking features of their hardware. True, stopping the clock in their DS2000/DS4000 and possibly some other embedded devices of theirs can prevent some trial options from expiring, but the codes for unlocking said features are encrypted quite strongly and I don't imagine buying a DS2072 hoping a hack will eventually appear is a very safe decision. Always make sure the decice you are buying, AS YOU ARE BUYING IT, is capable of doing what you need. If additional features become available over time, then that is a perk.

Coal is made of the same stuff as diamond; try explaining that to your wife on her birthday!
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: tequipment on April 22, 2013, 05:30:19 pm
Im not 100% sure, I'll find out BUT this is very common in most scope lines.

So most of the time yes this is true BUT they dont give out software to upgrade them.

here is an example of a power supply with many features unlocked with a key:
http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDP832.html (http://www.tequipment.net/RigolDP832.html)


Thanks
Evan
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 08:11:22 pm
The insides should be the same.
Evan Cirelli,, sales team, VP and co-founder of  TEquipment.NET

  Hi Evan ,
  Are you saying the DS2072 is same hardware as DS2200 and only needs software to get 200MHz bandwidth?  ??? ;D

Software probably helps, heres some measurements I made with my "stock" DS2072:
Generator Marconi 2022E - I checked it over the span via (a real) spectrum analyzer, signal dropped max  -1.5dB at 400Mhz. then climbed back to -1dB vs the reference -40dBm.
 
Heres a plot of the DS2072, captured via usbtmc piped into baudline, Hz = Mhz in this case. Waveform averaging is enabled vertical at 2mV/div. 2GS/Sec sampling.

Reference is -40 dBm (which corresponds to -32dB in the graph since thats full scale digital)

The 3dB'ish point is 70Mhz - then I carried on to 800 Mhz.
800 Mhz is -33 dB down.
400 -15dB
200 about -8dB
100 -5dB
50 -0.35 dB
10 is the refefence at -32 dB which corresponds to the Generators -40 dB signal (hence add 8dB the level to get dbm)

All total nonsense.

Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 22, 2013, 08:55:23 pm
Heres a plot of the DS2072, captured via usbtmc piped into baudline, Hz = Mhz in this case. Waveform averaging is enabled vertical at 2mV/div. 2GS/Sec sampling.


All total nonsense.

 @MikeR
What was your time base set at? (100ns/div?)
Probably :)
Was the frequency generator sweeping?
No manual stepping at 10Mhz
Does Baudline use multiple display waveforms or just just one?
It supports multiple inputs and channels. From STDIN, the channel data needs to be interleaved
chan1,chan2, etc

The Averaging by the Ds2072 during a sweep must have an affect.
It will, the longer dwell per step increases the snr due to the averaging, the steps here were
roughly timed to be similar - but not perfect hence my last comment.

The time base setting will affect the number of Samples and thus your data used by baudline
I now realize this thanks to your help.
-Cheers,


Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: Ghydda on April 22, 2013, 09:04:54 pm
Got mine today. I am a happy camper :)


My stats out of the box:

Software version: 00.00.01.00.05
Hardware version: 1.0.1.0.0
FPGA version:
   SPU 03.01.02
   WPU 00.06.00
   CCU 12.29.00
   MCU 00.05

According to the documentation the unit was calibrated on February 19th 2013.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 23, 2013, 09:40:23 pm
-Anyhow the .wfm file format is rather odd, baudline is able to parse unsigned bytes easily - it will display the spectrum showing e.g radio channels in the right places but only for sample rates set to 1GS/Sec, the file was captured at 2GS/sec, if I load that setting the sample rate accordingly they are in the wrong "spot" suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

Why would this be your conclusion? That equipment programmed to write it's own invented file format isn't doing it correctly? But that the third party software IS reading the file correctly?

As I mentioned already, the format described in wfm_view and other online sources for the DS1000 series is not valid anymore. The locations in the header of pertinent information (sample rate, sample size, etc) - and the manner in which the DSO stores sample data has been altered quite substantially. It's likely that with 2GSa/s the Rigol is storing the data in a different fashion than with 1GSa/s - since the 2GSa/s setting was not available in the DS1000 series. No one has published specs on the new format yet - or written any readers. My Rigol doesn't have any problems writing - and then later reading - a 2GSa/s WFM file - so clearly the fault is in the software. So, instead of claiming, as you did first, that the Rigol wasn't sampling at 2GSa/s - or secondly, that the Rigol isn't writing the 2GSa/s to the file (both of which are easy to prove otherwise) - you should be studying the new format and discovering the changes so that you can get Baudline to work correctly.
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: MikeR on April 23, 2013, 10:35:05 pm
-Anyhow the .wfm file format is rather odd, baudline is able to parse unsigned bytes easily - it will display the spectrum showing e.g radio channels in the right places but only for sample rates set to 1GS/Sec, the file was captured at 2GS/sec, if I load that setting the sample rate accordingly they are in the wrong "spot" suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

Why would this be your conclusion? That equipment programmed to write it's own invented file format isn't doing it correctly? But that the third party software IS reading the file correctly?

As I mentioned already, the format described in wfm_view and other online sources for the DS1000 series is not valid anymore. The locations in the header of pertinent information (sample rate, sample size, etc) - and the manner in which the DSO stores sample data has been altered quite substantially. It's likely that with 2GSa/s the Rigol is storing the data in a different fashion than with 1GSa/s - since the 2GSa/s setting was not available in the DS1000 series. No one has published specs on the new format yet - or written any readers. My Rigol doesn't have any problems writing - and then later reading - a 2GSa/s WFM file - so clearly the fault is in the software. So, instead of claiming, as you did first, that the Rigol wasn't sampling at 2GSa/s - or secondly, that the Rigol isn't writing the 2GSa/s to the file (both of which are easy to prove otherwise) - you should be studying the new format and discovering the changes so that you can get Baudline to work correctly.

It not my conclusion since its still being investigated. I haven't "claimed" anything here just stated my ongoing observations. Which stands currently that the 2GS/s wfm file when loaded into baudline only seems to be at 1GS/Sec, why is still to be determined and I am working with the baudline author to add support for the file format having supplied many example waveforms.

Update:
That observation is for the .wfm file *only*

- The CSV output mode does contain the full 2GS/Sec when configured to capture at that speed.
as shown in the attachments.

Same 50 Mhz signal.

Loading the .wfm with a samplerate (in baudline) set to 1GS/sec results in the 50Mhz signal being
at 50 Mhz, which triggered my original question.

-M
Title: Re: REVIEW - Rigol DS2072 - First Impressions of the DS2000 series from Rigol
Post by: marmad on April 23, 2013, 11:21:43 pm
I haven't "claimed" anything here just stated my ongoing observations.

You wrote:
Quote
It "seems" to be sampling at 2GS/sec.
and
Quote
...suggesting the original data isnt 2GS/sec.

B