First impressions of my new Fluke 17B

[easilyconfused]

Generally, if you want steak you don't order hamburger. I didn't think I deserved a Fluke, but I really hated to order something less. Could there be a compromise? Most of you probably know about the Fluke 17B available direct to your door from Hong Kong. But am I kidding myself? Is it really a Fluke? Or is it built down so that it's no different from any other el-cheapo? I decided to take a gamble. My thinking was that Fluke wouldn't allow the Chinese to use their actual name, colors, so forth without a certain level of quality. I ordered it here http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.28659. It came today. Being a stone beginner I'm certainly not qualified to review it. But I can tell you what I see. First, the mailman actually rang the door bell and got my signature. Already I'm impressed that the price included handling so that it didn't get tossed up on the porch. It's packed in a very nice looking cushioned envelope. The meter is in a cardboard box not intended for the English speaking market. All text on the box (except for the word Fluke) is Chinese. The meter itself is labeled in English ("hold", "range", etc.). The owner's manual is Chinese version first, English second. I thought this meter would be tiny. It's big. It's well packed in a cardboard tray and wrapped in poly and complete with leads. A heat probe in included. Why do men get excited at such things? It's a damned multimeter! Oh well.

The how-well-does-it-lie-on-the-table test is somewhere in the middle. You can force it to spin but really-- it prefers to stay put owing to the rubber case. Dave would probably like the bail. At first-- the fully-open position seems a little spongy. But alas, things are not always what they seem. The pivot point is a meeting of hard plastic and rubber. This sponginess absorbs some of the forces that makes it easier for my cheaper meters to fall over when I breathe hard. The stand could be better by being bigger but you gotta draw the line somewhere and I like it just fine.The digital display has a separate packing film which I will probably leave in place for the time being. The batteries are already installed and the digits appear instantly. The ranging knob rotates smooth as butter yet detents nicely at each range.  It doesn't seem to have a back light and I think that's great. I'm a hobbyist attempting to learn electronics. I won't be doing that in the dark. I would've had to pay more for the feature that I can't use. The leads are long, thick, supple, marked with the Fluke name. There are protective plastic caps for all four ends. Striking the probes together produces a disappointing response. I cleaned them with automotive brake cleaner but it didn't seem to help. But when probing with the points on a piece of metal the response was excellent. So I don't know. The tone for continuity is the same tone when changing modes with the yellow button. There's nothing wimpy about it. It's loud and clear. It does not sound when rotating the ranging knob. There is a micro-amps function per Dave's list of must-haves. Overall the thing looks good and feels heavy and beefy. I'll add more as I use it.

[saturation]

Enjoy!  Some general info:

Chinese link to 17B

New 18B

Those links go through Google translate converting Chinese to English.

[longview]

Lovely, this seems to confirm most of what's being said in the comments on DX.

I ordered it myself but they haven't shipped it yet, expecting to get it in approx. 2 weeks.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Oh my .... it has LED test holes on it .... And Dave hates such designs    

Do not expect to see an review of it here ...      

[lhc]

LED test? Are they serious? Strange idea.

Time for Dave's "what ticks me off...!" moment   

[NiHaoMike]

On the cheap multimeters with transistor test, it's possible to test a LED by plugging it into the C and E holes. But a 9v battery and resistor will do the job just as well.

[RayJones]

I too am awaiting my DX order to change from Pending to Ready for Fluke 17B.

DX are pretty good, so I have no real concerns.

As for LED testing, I reckon that would be damn friggin handy, especially if it works through the leads.
The amount of times I have tried to quickly verify a SMD LED's polarity before soldering and been stymied by insufficient, or even misleading results on other Flukes can be very frustrating.

Sure an power supply and resistor works, but heck if a *test* instrument can do it for me, I'd buy the 18B too 

[EEVblog]

Oh my .... it has LED test holes on it .... And Dave hates such designs    

Do not expect to see an review of it here ...      

LED Test jacks - oh FFS!
To use a TV adage, they have jumped the shark!

Just use the damn probes, please!
Any good meter can light up white LED's, nothing special there.
And no real point being able to measure the voltage unless you have selectable test currents.
Doesn't say what the current on this one is, probably just the standard 1mA or so.

Dave.

[Ferroto]

Oh my .... it has LED test holes on it .... And Dave hates such designs    

Do not expect to see an review of it here ...      

LED Test jacks - oh FFS!
To use a TV adage, they have jumped the shark!

Just use the damn probes, please!
Any good meter can light up white LED's, nothing special there.
And no real point being able to measure the voltage unless you have selectable test currents.
Doesn't say what the current on this one is, probably just the standard 1mA or so.

Dave.

Well it is targeted at the Chinese market.

But you should seriously do a review and rip fluke a new one 

[MrPlacid]

Hehe...

I think I know why they have LED test holes. There aren't that many button on the meter so chinese fluke stuck that in to take up some space.

Dave, don't do a review on this one because it's only a test meter for the asian market. It's like software in alpha or beta, I wouldn't expect perfection from software still in development. When fluke deemed it's ok for global market by all mean rip them on those LED test holes

[Kiriakos-GR]

it's only a test meter for the asian market.

Well I like to do an small comment on that ...

Its not ... an product limited to the Asian market ..
Fluke  planed an such marketing .

Any similar product , it will travel for few $ shipping , at every corner of this planet.
Thats the reality .

By an quick view , it does not look as an  killer product,
that will cause any explosion in the sales area too.

I continue to believe , that at med - low priced meters , UNI-T are possible to surprise pleasantly the market, about Christmas time ,  with their new range of products .   

[longview]

LED Test jacks - oh FFS!
To use a TV adage, they have jumped the shark!

Just use the damn probes, please!
Any good meter can light up white LED's, nothing special there.
And no real point being able to measure the voltage unless you have selectable test currents.
Doesn't say what the current on this one is, probably just the standard 1mA or so.

Dave.

http://69.36.166.207/usr_1034/Fluke_15B_17B_Manual.pdf

According to the user manual it's approx 0.6 mA at 1.1 to 1.6V

[RayJones]

LED Test jacks - oh FFS!
To use a TV adage, they have jumped the shark!

Just use the damn probes, please!
Any good meter can light up white LED's, nothing special there.
And no real point being able to measure the voltage unless you have selectable test currents.
Doesn't say what the current on this one is, probably just the standard 1mA or so.

Dave.

http://69.36.166.207/usr_1034/Fluke_15B_17B_Manual.pdf

According to the user manual it's approx 0.6 mA at 1.1 to 1.6V

yes, that's for the diode test on the 15B / 17B.

The LED test function is on the "new" 18B model....

FWIW, I have just received notification from DealExtreme that my Fluke 17B multimeter is on it way (and other assorted goodies). 

[Mechatrommer]

aaaargh! i already got another $100 DMM! why this one has not been reviewed earlier!  arggghhh! its like i want to sell mine off ebay or something!
here it is in ebay: http://cgi.ebay.com.my/FLUKE-17B-Digital-Multimeter-AC-Transducer-/190421675299?cmd=ViewItem&pt=AU_B_I_Electrical_Test_Equipment&hash=item2c56042d23

[saturation]

This series seems like a capable electrical meter compared to many lesser name brands.
But the specs are low for electronics work. 

[Mechatrommer]

This series seems like a capable electrical meter compared to many lesser name brands.
But the specs are low for electronics work.  

0.1mV, 0.1µA, 0.1?, 0.01nF? thats electronics i think

[Kiriakos-GR]

shafri , I am happy for you, that you got this Fluke ..

You got this meter , by having in mind that it will be useful to you at some extend !!

So , get it , use it , test it , if it does what you had in mind , its your perfect DMM.
 
If you disliked it , sell it again ...  the life with one DMM its just an choice , not a marriage. 

[saturation]

I think we can trust the 17B for electrical safety as its built to Fluke standards, but for electronics, its accuracy is at the limits for low voltage electronics work.  Of course, how often do you measure this low and need it to be accurate?  There are other DMM as accurate for the same money but questionable safety, as we saw in the $100 DMM Shootout.

For example, I use NiMH cells and require a cutoff to be certain at 900mVdc, so I need accuracy down to 10mVdc at least but 100mVdc at worst.

The 17B can works but there is little room for error, its the accuracy; 1% for most ranges, not including plus digits.  This makes this DMM mostly a 3 digit meter. 

In Vac, a 1Vac will read 1.013 at worse, that makes the last 2 digits of the reading uncertain.
In Vdc, a 1Vdc will read 1.008 at worse, making the last digit uncertain.

In the 400mVac scale, the manual states accuracy is 3% + 3.  This means if I send 400mVac it will read at worse 412.3mV making the last 3 digits uncertain in this scale.  So the best accuracy is really 100mVac, the 1st digit of the 400mV scale, and not the stated 0.1mVac. 

In the 400mVdc scale, the manual states accuracy is 1% + 10.  This means if I send 400mVdc it reads at worse 405.0mV making the last 2 digits uncertain.  So the best accuracy is really 10mVdc, the 1st 2 digits of the 400mV scale, and not the stated 0.1mVdc. 

In the discussion we had about Uni-T meters, that many of their DMM near 0.16% as shown, but the low point of the Uni-T is the questionable CAT III level safety.

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=533.msg7695#msg7695

For comparison, I have the Fluke 87 specs.  400mVac reads best to 10mVac. In Vdc its 1mVdc.  Of course the Fluke 87 is $300 vs the $100 for the 17B, but is 10x more accurate.

You can find more details in the manual

This series seems like a capable electrical meter compared to many lesser name brands.
But the specs are low for electronics work. 

0.1mV, 0.1µA, 0.1Ω, 0.01nF? thats electronics i think

[Mechatrommer]

shafri , I am happy for you, that you got this Fluke ..

no i dont have it. i got Uni-T

disliked it , sell it again ...  the life with one DMM its just an choice , not a marriage.  

i wish i could afford poligamy

@kiriakos & @saturation: maybe i just fooling around alot today... but surely i learnt alot tonite! thanx guys! thats what you are here for. i didnt noticed the tolerance accuracy... and didnt even bother before. until now.

[saturation]

You're welcome.  The specs of the 17B raised my curiosity, so checking its very similar to the US low end DMM model 114, which is made in China.  It costs about $100-130 retail, so its quite competitive and similarly spec'd as the 17B.  Its certainly a clear option.  See attachment.

shafri , I am happy for you, that you got this Fluke ..

no i dont have it. i got Uni-T

disliked it , sell it again ...  the life with one DMM its just an choice , not a marriage. 

i wish i could afford poligamy

@kiriakos & @saturation: maybe i just fooling around alot today... but surely i learnt alot tonite! thanx guys! thats what you are here for. i didnt noticed the tolerance accuracy... and didnt even bother before. until now.

[Kiriakos-GR]

I think we can trust the 17B for electrical safety as its built to Fluke standards

Fluke does not have standards,  it just making products that comply to some of them.

In the discussion we had about Uni-T meters, that many of their DMM near 0.16% as shown, but the low point of the Uni-T is the questionable CAT III level safety.

If it is so , it is just by you ..    by the simple electrical tests of Dave , testing at 1000V ,
everything gone smooth ..

And we can not go over and over about the CAT III level safety.
Let the professional electricians , who works at the heavy industry , to worry about it.   

[Kiriakos-GR]

so... whats the bottom line? kiriakos?

The bottom line , are the true tests , that Dave does , by spending all this energy ..
There is one good DMM for every type of user .... but, never will be,  any DMM that all the world will scream about it, as to was an "sex on a stick"  ... 




 

[saturation]

Yes, on Fluke "standards," what I meant Fluke builds to truly comply with IEC safety standards.

CAT III at 1000V is an 8000V transient, that was not tested. 

I think we can trust the 17B for electrical safety as its built to Fluke standards

Fluke does not have standards,  it just made products that comply to some of them.

In the discussion we had about Uni-T meters, that many of their DMM near 0.16% as shown, but the low point of the Uni-T is the questionable CAT III level safety.

If it is so , it is just by you ..    by the simple electrical tests of Dave , testing at 1000V ,
everything gone smooth ..

[Kiriakos-GR]

Yes, on Fluke "standards," what I meant Fluke builds to truly comply with IEC safety standards.

CAT III at 1000V is an 8000V transient, that was not tested.  

Well if this forum become one day an Electricians Engineers VB.
We will do all day CAT III testing, and we will skip the rest tests  ..  

The only official electrocuting test on video by Fluke , was about the Fluke 87 ...
Well if they like to prove them selfs , I would be best , to show similar tests for every meter that they produce...  this move , it will boost their sales too ...

But I think that I will never see them .. ( their testing videos for its and every model )

[MightyTwin]

Fluke does not have standards,  it just making products that comply to some of them.   

Sure they do. They've got certain in-house standards when it comes to circuit design, build quality, build consistency, measurement accuracy over time, etc. Heck, they've even standardized their paint scheme.

If they didn't, then their products would be all over the shop, with sloppy build quality, mis-matched products and parts, and so on.

-MightyTwin.

[saturation]

Electrically, the 17B is similar to the 114.  If anyone owns a 17B would be good to test it to see how its accuracy really is.  Flukes understate their accuracy to be conservative, so it may be better than the published specs.

so... whats the bottom line? kiriakos?

[Kiriakos-GR]

Fluke does not have standards,  it just making products that comply to some of them.    

Sure they do. They've got certain in-house standards when it comes to circuit design, build quality, build consistency, measurement accuracy over time, etc. Heck, they've even standardized their paint scheme.

-MightyTwin.

Thats true      

But be aware that in our times , the materials like high quality components,  
are everywhere ..  
Today ,  every one could build anything , and the " quality components "  are just an choice,
expressed in manufacturing cost  .

I am currently collecting the parts, so to build one truly professional Decade , at the class of 0.1% resistors tolerance .

This device  at this specs, assembled 15-20 years back , costs as 1.500 - 2000 $
The parts that I got today ... Vishay Dale resistors + gold plated aircraft switches,
did not cost more than 80$  as total ..      

And if I was an manufacturer , I would had probably , an cost of 20$ or less.

Conclusion .... Every one can build an high quality meter Today,
everywhere in the planet ,
if he just choose so .

So the old Fluke marketing firework , about " build quality "  & " quality components " ,
does not stand any more  , as reason to get an Fluke .

And by the way , I am just an stupid electrician ,  you ... all of you as electronics engineers, You should be aware of all of this, before me ..  

You all aware , that this days, all that it matters, are the good quality software ,
the superiority of the hardware components , has ended as issue for disputes , long long time ago ..    

[ThunderSqueak]

out of curiosity I decided to look for reviews of this meter (they are very lacking as it is a "sold in china" only meter).  I came across this review.

Reposting some internal construction photos and the review here just in case the other link goes away.  

First impression is good, the meter looks and feels like a Fluke meter. The meter feels sturdy. The LCD is big and clear. The function selector dial is good, it gives that positive “click” feeling.

Compared to the Fluke 77, this meter has better functionality in that it measures current down to the µA range, measures capacitance, and measures temperature using the provided K-type thermocouple probe.

The downside of the meter is that it doesn’t have Fluke’s auto touch hold, no-bar graph, and no LCD backlight. The overvoltage CAT rating is also slightly lower (300V CAT III vs 600V CAT III).

Compared to higher end Fluke models, this meter lacks the min/max function, does not measure true RMS and has no incorrect probe socket detection.

Internal contruction of the meter is really good. You can see the well designed PCB, the high quality components and the good soldering from the photos below. You can also see the big HRC fuses and the MOVs used for input protection.

[alm]

Thanks for the pics. I wonder what that bridge rectifier is doing there, it looks like it's connected to the COM terminal on one side and to the COM side of the 400mA fuse on the other side (although there may be hidden vias). Why would you need a bridge rectifier in a meter? I can't imagine that they use it for AC measurement, since they go down to the sub-millivolt level, but can't imagine it being for reverse polarity protection either. I don't think this meter is true-RMS, so it is possible that they use it to calculate the average voltage, and compensate for the diode drops (which have a significant tempco I believe). But the location close to the input jack seems odd.

Still uses a bunch of trimmers, no closed case calibration. It uses the cheap blob-on-PCB method, so no chance of repair if the main IC dies (but it's probably unavailable anyway). No issues with build quality as far as I can see.

[saturation]

It looks very well made.  If you peruse the Fluke 117 review by Dave on the eevblog, the construction of this Chinese Fluke rivals the US made one's easily, it differs mostly in its fundamental design rather than build.  

out of curiosity I decided to look for reviews of this meter (they are very lacking as it is a "sold in china" only meter).  I came across this review.

Reposting some internal construction photos and the review here just in case the other link goes away.  

First impression is good, the meter looks and feels like a Fluke meter. The meter feels sturdy. The LCD is big and clear. The function selector dial is good, it gives that positive “click” feeling.

Compared to the Fluke 77, this meter has better functionality in that it measures current down to the µA range, measures capacitance, and measures temperature using the provided K-type thermocouple probe.

The downside of the meter is that it doesn’t have Fluke’s auto touch hold, no-bar graph, and no LCD backlight. The overvoltage CAT rating is also slightly lower (300V CAT III vs 600V CAT III).

Compared to higher end Fluke models, this meter lacks the min/max function, does not measure true RMS and has no incorrect probe socket detection.

Internal contruction of the meter is really good. You can see the well designed PCB, the high quality components and the good soldering from the photos below. You can also see the big HRC fuses and the MOVs used for input protection.

[cybergibbons]

Just picked up a Fluke 17B on Apliu Street in HK. Got a very good price for it - if you find the right store and haggle a bit you can get them down.

The meter is well made, as good as "normal" Flukes. The flip out stand pivots on the rubber case, feels a bit crap but works pretty well.

Apliu Street is amazing. Most of it is mobile phones, but there are guys fixing phone on stalls in the street, shops selling loads of components and tools, all very cheap. UNI-T is everywhere. Some of the meters are 1/4 the price compared to the UK.

There are Fluke meters for sale (couldn't find any 87s unfortunately), but there are also "Flukes" for sale....

[ThunderSqueak]

Just picked up a Fluke 17B on Apliu Street in HK. Got a very good price for it - if you find the right store and haggle a bit you can get them down.

The meter is well made, as good as "normal" Flukes. The flip out stand pivots on the rubber case, feels a bit crap but works pretty well.

Apliu Street is amazing. Most of it is mobile phones, but there are guys fixing phone on stalls in the street, shops selling loads of components and tools, all very cheap. UNI-T is everywhere. Some of the meters are 1/4 the price compared to the UK.

There are Fluke meters for sale (couldn't find any 87s unfortunately), but there are also "Flukes" for sale....

out of curiosity, what does a "Fluke" look like? :>

[Kiriakos-GR]

out of curiosity, what does a "Fluke" look like? :>

Because I am an " Foreigner " too , can you retype the question , with one more understandable manner. 

Thanks ..

@cybergibbons

as good as "normal" Flukes

I have not see any of those yet ... 
Even the Industrial 87 ... or the Car electricians model ... again Fluke 87 ....
They have so "silly"  low in volume beepers .... that I do wonder how an electrician ,
industrial  or for cars , will be able to listen it .. in a medium noisy environment.

Just of curiosity , why you did not get an "advanced" for the same Price UNI-T ?

 

[ThunderSqueak]

There are Fluke meters for sale (couldn't find any 87s unfortunately), but there are also "Flukes" for sale....

I was wondering if you used quotation marks to indicate a Fluke copy or counterfeit as you said there are flukes for sale, then said "flukes" in quotations as if to indicate that they are called flukes but are actually something else.

I was asking what one of the "Flukes" looked like, if it was a counterfeit.  I was curious to how close they were to the real thing.

Not sure how to type that in a more understandable manner   

[Kiriakos-GR]

Ok ... well  the answer are easy ...

There is an factory on Hong Kong , making DMM for the inner China market .

Some people likes to believe that they will be inferior from the ones marketed with the " Made in US " logo .
And this is just a joke , by my understanding ..
I do not believe that robots in construction lines , has feelings or make mistakes.
No matter the flags, on them.

An logical explanation , would be that the current agreement between Fluke in US and the Fluke in China,
are the reproduction of the " economic line " ,  DMM 's  for generic usage.

This agreement could possibly change in the near future , and more advanced models will possible come out, from this partnership ..  

The all planet spins around because people and companies , they cooperate and create partnerships.

This " fight for the flag " thing ..it must to stop .
Or , all the Americans they should throw their SONY TV sets from their windows .. ( Its an Japanese brand it does not belong to them )  "The flag "

I created on purpose this paranoid monologue , so to point out how ridicules it is , to blast the Flag ,
and not the bad product , no matter where it had be made .      

  
 So this " Flag war "  had cause this confusion , and explains and the quotation marks .
As an " not made in US one " ...  

 

[saturation]

If counterfeiters can copy any Fluke and provide a similar accuracy, precision, safety and physical robustness, then Fluke has a problem on their hands.  Its just like a counterfeit Rolex watch, how many has anyone seen that comes even close to the real thing in quality?

See an older discussion here:

https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=409.msg4265#msg4265



It was a good idea for Fluke to have a branch in China, not only to make instruments but to enforce it intellectual property, if that is possible there.

Many Fluke DMM, especially the 80 series, have patents. If you look behind the 87V you should see 2:

Input circuit path:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=x8kDAAAAEBAJ&dq=6,094,045

The capacitance measurement circuit:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=fTwOAAAAEBAJ&dq=6275047




This was recently granted:

The input filter circuit:
http://www.google.com/patents/about?id=EqioAAAAEBAJ&dq=7342393

[Kiriakos-GR]

It seems a large amount of DMM related patents were made by Raymond Zoellick of Fluke, from the late 1990s to early 2000s.  He maybe one the 80s series principle designers.

Houston we have a problem !!  

Well this  Registered patents , its an double side axe ... many found the way to register even the silliest things , so to have claims on them.
This race of registering patents, become an troublesome sport .
  
If I manage to register  " the breath " every one will have to pay me, so to take one.  

The only positive are, that after 25 years , any registered patent can be used freely .

The same story happened with the SONY Trinitron tubes ,  and the Mitsubishi one day after the patent termination, started to make the " Diamondtron " tubes , any many others similar flat ones.  

[cybergibbons]

out of curiosity, what does a "Fluke" look like? :>

There seemed to be five different things going on here:

• Real Fluke 15/17B, 115, 117, and 77 series as well.
• Meters that externally looked very, very similar to the 15B/17B, but had small differences on the LCD, silkscreen. Probes seemed low quality, dial sloppy, rubber cover felt different. Probably good copies. I don't think these are being made on the ghost shift, they aren't close enough.
• Meters that were only a token effort at looking like a Fluke 15B/17B. Clear differences in quality and functionality.
• Meters that looked nothing like a Fluke at all but said Fluke on them.
• Meters that looked quite Fluke like but were branded differently

[/li]
[/list]

UNI-T meters were everywhere - but I already have a UT51D and  UT71D.

There were Sanwa meters everywhere as well, but the price differences on the same model from shop to shop indicated that there were genuine and fake ones. I've not seen them before so would probably struggle to tell the difference.

I got the Fluke 17B for when I'm doing electrical work - I can trust the input protection.

[Kiriakos-GR]

UNI-T meters were everywhere - but I already have a UT51D and  UT71D.

I got the Fluke 17B for when I'm doing electrical work - I can trust the input protection.

The input protection , that protects the meter it self , from wrong settings ,
like be in Ohms and measure with the leads voltage... its something that I do appreciate too.
But this privilege , are offered  by the most well made DMM today.

I had never ever try to see what happens at my 20 years old Pros-Kit ( Mastech) if I add volts at the ohms setting..
But the bench type dinosaurs  like 8010A 8012A 8050A , they can handle that, and it does feels good.  

[cybergibbons]

Yes, we all do stupid things from time to time. It's the one thing that bothers me about my UNI-T meters - they just have small glass fuses, and seemingly little  input protection. Are they really safe to their ratings?

A colleague suffered extremely bad facial burns after a no-name voltage tester (like a Fluke T100, but I think it came free with an order) went to short when he was testing if the output of a timer switch was off. It was only 240V but it was still pretty bad...

[Kiriakos-GR]

Personally I do trust the UNI-T products, I have some of them for years.
Its the only trust-able brand from HK , in my eyes.

I even got their latest tester ..  
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/index.php?topic=448.msg4831#msg4831

And I am more than happy ..  
So, yes I do trust them ..

But some times its not the brand or the model , every manufacturer has an percentage of premature failed products , thats why we have and the warranty period.    

In my repairs shop , I have 3 Phases  Mains ( 380 AC ) ... so testing my  voltage tester was an easy task ...

[saturation]

Yes, I agree K for certain industries, but with many of the established equipment manufacturers, many of their patents are truly useful, compared to what we see in the computer industry ... maybe because the market is much narrower in test equipment.

I found this list of Fluke patents related to DMM:

http://www.prc68.com/I/DMM.shtml

Its intellectual property is enough that Agilent will mention Fluke equipment for calibrating its handheld DMM line, including its 'calibrator handheld multimeter', here is the calibration sheet for the 1253A and 1401 calibrator.

It seems a large amount of DMM related patents were made by Raymond Zoellick of Fluke, from the late 1990s to early 2000s.  He maybe one the 80s series principle designers.

Houston we have a problem !!  

Well this  Registered patents , its an double side axe ... many found the way to register even the silliest things , so to have claims on them.
This race of registering patents, become an troublesome sport .
  
If I manage to register  " the breath " every one will have to pay me, so to take one.  

The only positive are, that after 25 years , any registered patent can be used freely .

The same story happened with the SONY Trinitron tubes ,  and the Mitsubishi one day after the patent termination, started to make the " Diamondtron " tubes , any many others similar flat ones.  

[saturation]

The problem is, unless you know DMM, you'll think they are all made the same or you'll simply forget since nothing has happened for a long time.  So, if you reach for a DMM and not think twice about its rating for electrical work, since we all do electronics and not exposed to these voltages routinely, getting a meter of lesser quality risks what you just mention.  You may want to add permanent labels on your lesser line of DMM and say not for use on junction boxes and more, or even line AC.

You can only die once.

If that didn't happen, it is still not possible to replace a finger, hand, arm, or just repair a burn to make you normal again if you are injured in electrical work.  Here is a recent story.

http://ecmweb.com/ops_maintenance/defective-test-equipment-20100101/

The summary, this accident was initiated by a multimeter, with a glass fuse.  

"Sequence of events — The meter suffered an internal failure, most likely due to a voltage transient. Because of the severe damage to the meter and circuit board, it was not possible to determine the precise failure. However, based on the evidence, I concluded that, as a result, the fuse attempted to open the circuit against a fault current and voltage that were far above its design capability. This caused it to arc and ultimately explode, which explains the bent scale plate, housing damage, and missing fuse and clips.

What actually started the arc at the bus bars? Either it resulted from the meter explosion itself or arcing at the probe tip as the electrician instinctively pulled it away in response to the noise and flash. Once the bus bars began to arc, the victims' fates were sealed, as there was no turning back at that point."

The remains of the MM:




The remains of the probe:

Yes, we all do stupid things from time to time. It's the one thing that bothers me about my UNI-T meters - they just have small glass fuses, and seemingly little  input protection. Are they really safe to their ratings?

A colleague suffered extremely bad facial burns after a no-name voltage tester (like a Fluke T100, but I think it came free with an order) went to short when he was testing if the output of a timer switch was off. It was only 240V but it was still pretty bad...

[Kiriakos-GR]

Well this conversation looks like a " déjà vu "  ..

Every time that some other brand than Fluke .. called as safe to use ...
Some one will  start ,  to  push things about " Highest safe limits "  .. explosions and transients .
And blame the glass fuses ..

I am against to this global terrorism philosophy , made by Fluke , so to brain wash   the common Joe ,
that only Fluke cares for him ... but he must pay the price premium !! so to not die ..

I do not know any company in the world , to had organize an so brain wash campaign,
about the DMM safety ...

Looks that  Philips / Siemens / MetraWatt /  UNI-T/ HP / CHAUVIN ARNOUX / and many Japanese brands ,
or Russian  brands ....  they like to see us dead ..

I am not debating here ,  I am just clarify that I am not an believer of the " Fluke master safety " Song.

The rest of the planet , are not fools .  

  
By watching the latest reviews of Dave , the most interesting , was the HRC fuses,
the Chinese manufacturers are smart ,   they know that the Americans love seeing HRC fuses,
so instead to fight back this theory , they just offer what the others expect to see .
Smart hey .. 
 

[jahonen]

I don't understand why Kiriakos always remembers to blame Fluke for extorting the users with safety issues. I think that Gossen-Metrawatt also reminds about the safety issues. I see it more widely. I don't personally care who makes the meter, but I do care does it really meet the relevant safety standards for the work. And I think that is the way Fluke meant it, not that only their products actually meet the standards. There are probably plenty of cheaper meters which fullfill appropriate CAT-ratings but problem with at least Chinese stuff is that you can't really trust them, due to that they have somewhat flexible practices for testing for compliance.

Yes, I have measured mains voltages many times with meter with certainly does not meet any kind of CAT criteria, but I definitely wouldn't want to do same thing on a circuit which has high destruction potential, like shown in previous posts.

It is important to notice that it is not the voltage alone what does the damage shown in the pictures, but the resulting high-current arc flash. So testing would require a power source with enough short-circuit current. For electronic and household electrical work with small fuses (up to 16 A 230 VAC around here), there is not enough short-circuit available to do so much damage, whether you have CAT-rated meter or not. Things however change quickly if one deals with distribution level.

HRC fuses apply only to current ranges, for voltage ranges, there are other things to do to ensure CAT-compliance (like enough creepage distance on the PCB between nodes at different voltages, or "high-voltage isolation slots", like Dave calls them), which precautions obviously have been overlooked.

Regards,
Janne

[Kiriakos-GR]

Ok lets speak seriously here ...   No I will not use my words , even If I do have every  right to have my own personal opinion ..


Officially  in Europe , based on the latest European Directive called as ELOT HD 384 ..

Electrical tests over mains installations can be accepted only by those meters ..

Macrotest 5035
Fluke 1651
METREL MI 3102  http://www.metrel.si/products/electrical-installations-safety/multifunction-testers-eurotest-family/mi-3102-eurotest-xe.html

If you do not own any of those  1000$  testers , do not touch AC Mains ..

[cybergibbons]

Kiriakos - those are installation testers, not multimeters.

In the UK, you are recommended to use a 600V CAT-III meter if you are working with anything outside of household, single-phase mains. If you are working on anything further upstream that distribution (i.e. practically unprotected), then those rules are out of the window.

Glass fuses don't have the interuption rating required to be safe if you are working with what could be several kiloamps of current in a fault.

[NiHaoMike]

It is important to notice that it is not the voltage alone what does the damage shown in the pictures, but the resulting high-current arc flash. So testing would require a power source with enough short-circuit current. For electronic and household electrical work with small fuses (up to 16 A 230 VAC around here), there is not enough short-circuit available to do so much damage, whether you have CAT-rated meter or not. Things however change quickly if one deals with distribution level.

A friend of mine has a scar on her arm from an accident involving measuring a computer power supply with a cheap multimeter set to amps. The insulation melted right off the probe wire and it got hot enough to cause a serious burn. That was just with a 300W or so ATX power supply, mind you. If she did the same with a car battery, she would be lucky to be able to tell me the story.

What surprises me is why don't good meter probes have HRC fuses built into them. A CAT IV meter is not any good if the cause of the accident is the probe wire getting cut by a sharp metal edge or melting on a hot exhaust manifold.

[PetrosA]

It's enough to look at datasheets for some common size fuses and it becomes apparent that there is a huge difference in the breaking capacity between glass and sand filled ceramic fuses.

This text is quoted from here:

http://www.ce-mag.com/archive/05/01/018.html

Interruption Rating. Also commonly known as breaking capacity, a fuse’s interruption rating is the maximum approved current that the device can safely interrupt at rated voltage. Depending upon the type and design of the fuse, this current can range from a few amperes to several thousand. Typically, glass fuses have a low breaking capacity, while ceramic ones have a high breaking capacity.

If breaking capacity is exceeded, there is a risk that the fuse could blow apart like a firecracker, expelling molten material, damaging surrounding circuitry, or even harming the user.

A typical rating in accordance with UL 248-14 is 10,000 A at 125 V ac. Using this as an example, if an overcurrent fault of less than 10,000 A occurs on a 125-V-ac line, the fuse will open safely. However, if the overcurrent is greater than 10,000 A, the risk increases for damage to occur.

IEC 60127-2 categorizes fuses into three groups in terms of their breaking capacities.1 Low-breaking-capacity fuses are those tested to 35 A or to 10 times their rated current, whichever is greater. Industry uses the letter L to designate this type of fuse. A fuse said to exhibit enhanced breaking capacity is tested to 150 A and carries the letter E as a symbol of its capability. A fuse with high breaking capacity, designated with an H, is tested to 1500 A.

It's obvious that these standards are not made up by Fluke or any other company acting on their own. They are the product of years of safety testing. Every fuse I've ever seen in any country I've been in that handles mains current has been a sand filled fuse. With all the evidence supporting the use of HRC fuses for mains use, only a stubborn "mangas" would continue to claim that glass fuses are fine

[PetrosA]

What surprises me is why don't good meter probes have HRC fuses built into them. A CAT IV meter is not any good if the cause of the accident is the probe wire getting cut by a sharp metal edge or melting on a hot exhaust manifold.

More and more of the probe leads I see are high temperature silicone rubber, probably to prevent them melting. If there is enough pressure on the probe lead to cut it on something other than a knife, I'd say the technician is doing something wrong in the first place. I think putting the fuse in the probe or inline with the lead would offer less protection in case of an explosion.

[alm]

Fused probes are a safety hazard, since they would indicate zero voltage in voltage mode (you are supposed to measure a known live circuit before and after the unknown circuit, but you're not supposed to make stupid mistakes like measuring current across a circuit either). You can have indicators that the fuse is blown, but you want to make it hard for people to make mistakes, and these indicators might fail. Fluke recalled some of the 170 series multimeters because they didn't indicate a hazardous voltage fast enough. In my opinion, designing the probes so that they can withstand the required current for a short amount of time, and designing the fuses in the meter, where you can separate current from voltage measurement, is the better strategy.

[NiHaoMike]

Isn't one solution to making sure the meter is operating correctly is to use something like an AA battery with a simple voltage booster to ensure that there is always a known live circuit nearby?

[Kiriakos-GR]

only a stubborn "mangas" would continue to claim that glass fuses are fine

We are many "manges"  but   scattered all over the world , and some have landed to Poland ,
and have fantastic pictures of Italy in their home page.

But I have not see yet any blender - TV set - Home HiFi sound system , or air condition ,
to had be killed from transients .

Thats why I am skeptical , about this matter.

And the bottom line are , that behind brands , there is electronics engineers who did the " Wrong design " ,
if they did it ..
This is an electronics engineers Blog .. right ?

So instead of using the brand names as practice target, we should learn and find the true responsible,
behind every small or large scam ..

Those electronics engineers are not worth to be called as electronics engineers .

I am just the end user , and all that I have are my opinion , based on common logic.  

And right now , I like to kick in the rear , the designer behind the Fluke 87V .
The meter with the latest protective holster , does not let the beeper to sound powerful enough.
And If  I remove the holster , so to restore the volume of the beeper .... I loose the ability to use the TPAK hanging system ... that I have buy and pay !!

I got screwed on that ..  from the bad design .. of some one who works for Fluke ... ( Yes he is an American )
The one brings the other , and Fluke gets the fully responsibility , of this large mistake,
because they gave the " ok " , so to start the production of this holster and hanging system .
 

And I am saying all this , because i feel very unhappy because of this.
And this is what matters , satisfaction and happiness .    

[alm]

Isn't one solution to making sure the meter is operating correctly is to use something like an AA battery with a simple voltage booster to ensure that there is always a known live circuit nearby?

Sure, but safety equipment should be as intuitive and easy to use as possible. A meter (w/ probes) that might stop reading voltages at any point is not intuitive. And a properly designed meter wouldn't need those fuses in the first place.

[slburris]

And right now , I like to kick in the rear , the designer behind the Fluke 87V .

OK, so you're unhappy with your Fluke.  If you were to buy a different multimeter,
what would it be?

Scott

[ThunderSqueak]

And right now , I like to kick in the rear , the designer behind the Fluke 87V .
The meter with the latest protective holster , does not let the beeper to sound powerful enough.
And If  I remove the holster , so to restore the volume of the beeper .... I loose the ability to use the TPAK hanging system ... that I have buy and pay !!

regarding the Fluke 87-v

You have a hard time hearing the beeper with the holster on?   I consider it on the loud side.  The technicians that work under me have even complained a few times that it is obnoxiously loud, although I think part of that is they are recovering from a night of too much alcohol . I should take the holster off next time they complain  

I like my Fluke meters.  I own a 12, 87, and 87v and they all get use.  I have NEVER had an issue hearing the beeper with the holster on them, on any of them.


What meter do you consider the best?

[Kiriakos-GR]

What meter do you consider the best?

The best ...  is it any really, that it can get the title ?
I do not know.

All that I can say are that I was not expect from an meter at this price tag,
to suffer for ridicules, external design flaws.
I can forgive it that it defaults on diode with the beeper off .

The best .... TRUE RMS could be the 87-6 , if Fluke decide to become open minded,
and unlock the Fluke forum , so voices like my , to find an way to trigger them.  
I always nag for an truly good reason .  

Finally only Dave , can do an DMM  " loudest Beeper comparison " ...  at the high priced ones.
 
 

[saturation]

I just received this weekend from eBay a used heavily grimed up Fluke 87V, and certainly was used in the outdoors a lot.  I originally was going for a used name brand bench meter of high accuracy, or a new low end Agilent, but for about $120+$20 for shipping, how can you lose, considering a 17b runs in that price range.  I was looking for a working meter to use as a 3rd meter for circuit monitoring, so appearance wasn't a factor, but factory intact function was. 

Similar to one pictured below but a bit dirtier.  In deference to the original owner, I'm not posting the real photo.



There was dirt inside the input jacks.  It came with the electrician kit, but without a bag, and the replacement one was so worn and dirty I discarded it.



I spent at least 2 hours cleaning the meter and the accessories.  The probes on the meter were bent.  Soap and water was the only way to get the grime out, and it blackened my hands and the sink.  The magnet was full of rusted metal particles, so I knew this meter was put to work in a field setting that was not clean.  The meter body itself has some deep scratches at back, and the yellow holster has cuts.  There were many scratches on the LCD clear panel but I managed to buff most out with Novus plastic scratch remover.  The yellow holster grime was so sticky, I put it in the dishwasher, and I must say, that did the best job in cleaning it out.

I've disassembled it completely and checked the internals, inside its pristine.  I'm going through testing all its functions and calibration, and so far, its working superbly to spec.

The one thing I find off with the 87V I got, is the battery compartment does not have an O ring seal.  The casing, and input jacks of the 85 and 87V have O rings that seal tightly when the case is closed, and the rubber buttons seal against the casing like an O ring, but the battery compartment is just plastic on plastic.  Is there supposed to be an O ring here?  I'm not concerned, but unlike the 85, without an O ring here its a weak spot for water to enter the PCB.

Compared to my older Fluke 85, the 87V beep is extremely loud, and that's with the magnet holder and hanger on.  so I'm not sure what K's issue is, maybe my meter is better or his worse?  I can only surmise that either K's meter has defects, because he has complained about other things with his eBay bought 87V, or he works in a very noisy area.  Hopefully its not hearing problems.

The only thing I can suggest is check the piezo beeper, make sure the 3 springs are intact and making a good contact with the PCB. 

One has to get a device one can work with, but I don't think the complaints K registers is typical of most users of the 87V.

And right now , I like to kick in the rear , the designer behind the Fluke 87V .
The meter with the latest protective holster , does not let the beeper to sound powerful enough.
And If  I remove the holster , so to restore the volume of the beeper .... I loose the ability to use the TPAK hanging system ... that I have buy and pay !!

regarding the Fluke 87-v

You have a hard time hearing the beeper with the holster on?   I consider it on the loud side.  The technicians that work under me have even complained a few times that it is obnoxiously loud, although I think part of that is they are recovering from a night of too much alcohol . I should take the holster off next time they complain 

I like my Fluke meters.  I own a 12, 87, and 87v and they all get use.  I have NEVER had an issue hearing the beeper with the holster on them, on any of them.


What meter do you consider the best?

[Kiriakos-GR]

My next DMM will have volume control over the beeper plus  tremble and bass adjustments.
No one will decide for me , how loud , are loud enough. 

The industrial electricians hang out at noise places .. thats a fact.

As about my 87-5 , at my low noise bench ,  with the holster and the rear leg closed its almost problematic ,
when it stays horizontally .

When I pull the support leg , and set the meter standing, I have sound ...
If I remove it from the holster it sings songs ..

Once I had said that I am gonna drill the sucker     , and probably I will just do that..
Right now I am busy with the resistors decade project..

[PetrosA]

only a stubborn "mangas" would continue to claim that glass fuses are fine

We are many "manges"  but   scattered all over the world , and some have landed to Poland ,
and have fantastic pictures of Italy in their home page.

But I have not see yet any blender - TV set - Home HiFi sound system , or air condition ,
to had be killed from transients .

Thats why I am skeptical , about this matter.

Thanks K I don't have much time anymore for photos, but the old ones stay up anyway.

Blenders, TVs, Hi-Fi's, etc, don't need HRC fusing because they are not designed to be used in CAT III or CAT IV conditions. Most residential overcurrent protection around the world limits the available current to 10,000A at or near the mains which makes it very hard to ignite an arc flash (not impossible, but less likely...). Some multimeters ARE designed to test voltage in conditions with much higher available fault current where transients can be in the thousands of volts.

[Kiriakos-GR]

Any way, personally as adult - consumer - technician.

I see more danger in the picture, of one young one to be bare foot in the  room and pocking one mains plug.
Than thinking that the A type Fuse will save his life , and the B type , not.

From the many conversations about this matters, the conclusion always was, that the DMM that it will operate mainly at homes, it does not need to comply at the maximum ratings.

The industrial environment , its less forgiven ,  but there is no need for an such conversation.
The Fluke 17B  its not an industrial meter.    

 

[PetrosA]

From the many conversations about this matters, the conclusion always was, that the DMM that it will operate mainly at homes, it does not need to comply at the maximum ratings.

The industrial environment , its less forgiven ,  but there is no need for an such conversation.
The Fluke 17B  its not an industrial meter.    

 

True, the 17B is only rated CAT II so no one should be using it on the line side of the mains or even in the main panel/fuse box. Even so, the HRC fuses are designed to be safer than a glass fuse when they blow and the most likely situation for that is if you leave the leads plugged in the current terminals and try to check voltage (dead short to earth or to second phase/leg). Even in a CAT II area this can cause some big fireworks, so better safe than sorry.

[sonicj]

DX is listing the 18B for $107.10 usd shipped
http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.45434

tempting! my fluke 12 is still "going", despite years of abuse! it's taken a good bit of effort to keep it afloat though... lack of current measurement capability finally has me considering investing in a new meter. i rarely needed to measure current via a meter until. if i did, i would go to my craftsman dmm from like 10 years ago. not having it on my go-to dmm is a real pain now that im delving into developing my own circuits. anywho, this looks like a pretty sweet deal if the build quality is anything like my 12.

i don't know what the rest of you are thinking cause i personally thought the led tester looked handy! i have a bin full of LEDs for which i have idea what the Vf is, nor how it will look when lit. this feature will allow me to quickly choose the flavor of led im feeling at the moment and at the same time tell me exactly what the Vf is so i can choose the proper resistor without any further effort!

-sj

btw re: the buzzer on my fluke 12... i filled mine up with hot glue and its still too loud 

[semaphore]

To me the 17B is better than 18B. The 18B is missing below items:

- Temperature read
- Frequency read
- Duty cycle read
- Relative function

Which look more to me like the Fluke 18B is the Fluke 15B with an LED tester! However, it cost the most out of these 3 models. Here are the DealExtreme prices:

15B = $73.54
17B = $90.50
18B = $107.10

I think 17B still the most value.  

[Salas]

Striking the probes together produces a disappointing response. I cleaned them with automotive brake cleaner but it didn't seem to help. But when probing with the points on a piece of metal the response was excellent. So I don't know. The tone for continuity is the same tone when changing modes with the yellow button. There's nothing wimpy about it. It's loud and clear.

Zombie thread resurrection post. I got a 17B too, and I have seen that with leads from another DMM, striking the ends responds much better. So its own probe pins neck surface conductivity must be a part of the let down. Don't know if its some measure against hard side-shorts between live PCB components when probing or just crap metal. They are nice ergonomically non the less. About the meter in general, I am happy primarily for the sturdy construction, clean big digits, straight forward classic functionality, fair auto ranging speed VS most Chinese designed meters. Regarding its price of course, misses out noticeably to expensive higher model Flukes. Great for the tool box, fair on the bench in casual jobs. Now why they just could not give it a 2.5V diode range to at least light the odd RGY led for a quick check...Up sale they call the design difficulty term?